March 28, 2025 • 33 mins
This episode covers sensitive topics. Listener discretion is advised. Please prioritize your well-being while listening.
What would you do if you had more courage? This question sits at the heart of our illuminating conversation with Dr. Margie Warrell, global thought leader on brave leadership and author of "The Courage Gap."
The courage gap affects us all, but particularly women. We explore how imposter syndrome manifests as underestimating our abilities while overestimating dangers. As Margie powerfully states, "We shouldn't be trying to prove our worth. We need to just own our worth." This simple shift in perspective can liberate us to pursue meaningful goals with confidence rather than doubt.
Through vulnerable personal stories, including surviving an armed robbery, Margie demonstrates her transformative "Three Ps" approach to reframing difficult situations. By choosing narratives that make us feel more Powerful, Positive, and Purposeful, we can create generative stories that shape our future rather than keeping us stuck. "You create your stories. But your stories then create you," she explains, offering practical wisdom for catching and redirecting unhelpful narratives. By giving ourselves permission to be imperfect, whether as parents, professionals, or creators—we open doors to experiences and growth we might otherwise miss.
What pivot might be revealing your path today? Listen in and discover how embracing courage in the face of uncertainty can transform your life's journey.
Guest Bio:
Dr. Margie Warrell is a globally recognized expert in leadership and human behavior, renowned for her ability to help leaders and organizations unlock untapped potential by countering the underlying dynamics that inhibit bold thinking, decisive action, and transformative growth.
A passionate advocate for advancing women in leadership, Margie has contributed to government roundtables, spearheaded initiatives to elevate more women to decision-making roles, and co-led Korn Ferry’s Power of All program during her tenure as a Senior Partner in their CEO & Enterprise Leadership Institute.
Margie’s latest book, The Courage Gap (Jan ‘25), distills her decades of research and experience, providing a roadmap for closing the gap between potential and performance.
Based in Alexandria, Virginia, Margie balances her professional endeavors with her love of adventure. A lifelong hiker and aspiring barista, she finds inspiration scaling mountains, including summiting Mt. Kilimanjaro with her husband and four children.
Connect with Margie:
Website, LinkedIn
Connect with Theresa and Ivana:
Theresa, True Strategy Consultants: tsc-consultants.com
LinkedIn @treeconti, Insta @tscconsultants
Ivana, Courageous Being: courageousbeing.com
LinkedIn @ivipol, Insta @courbeing
SITP team, Step Into The Pivot: stepintothepivot.com
LinkedIn @step-into-the-pivot, YouTube @StepIntoThePivot
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody and welcome to today's episode of
Step Into the Pivot, where wehave a phenomenal guest and
speaker, margie Worrell.
I am, margie, here, beingreally encouraged and
essentially tested.
I'm in the practice of lookingat any potential imposter
(00:25):
syndrome issues that might comeup.
That is something that you know, teresa, and I talk about a lot
, and when we were looking atyour bio, when we were looking
at your life's work, oh mygoodness, in the business of
helping other people tap intocourage, tap into sense of, you
(00:45):
know, inner leadership and thenexternal leadership of their own
life, whether that's at work orat home.
Here you are really leadingthat movement and we are so, so
proud and happy to have you,have you here on the show.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Well, thanks for having me.
Great to be with you.
You heavy here on the show.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Welcome.
Well, thanks for having me.
Great to be with you and lovelyto see Teresa again.
Yes, so, thank you so much.
So, margie, you and I met byaccident a few years ago four or
five years ago maybe.
We were at an event inWashington DC of all places that
I live in Phoenix, so I was wayout of my element.
We were early to the event.
There weren't many people thereand we just walked up and
started talking.
And, you know, after the event,there were many people there
(01:30):
and we just walked up andstarted talking.
And you know, after the fact I Irealized who you were.
You gave me your card and Ithink you gave you mine and we
kind of stayed in touch, I mean.
So I am super happy to have youhere and, to be honest, your
newest book, the Courage Gap,which I want to remind our
listeners, is an amazing bookI've already read it twice, so
and a five star review.
So, as women, you findourselves in this situation.
So can you maybe start ourconversation, give our listeners
(01:54):
a little bit of your background, because you you started life
in rural Australia and nowyou're this.
So can you kind of take usthrough that a little bit?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Oh yeah, you know, when people say tell me your
story, I'm like how long do wehave?
What's the short version?
You know when you've had enoughlaps around the sun and you
live life very fully, as I do,and in a very global life,
there's many, many, manychapters and parts to it.
But yes, I grew up on a dairyfarm in rural Australia about
(02:25):
four hours from Melbourne.
Big sister of seven, dad milkedcows.
It was a pretty simple organic.
Before organic was a buzz word.
It was organic because wecouldn't afford any fast food or
going out anywhere.
So childhood and headed off touniversity and then, after I
(02:46):
graduated, a person in my wholefamily to go to university.
I went backpacking around theworld, saved up my money and
traveled very, very, veryfrugally around the world for a
couple of years.
I went, got back and went againand I think that opened my eyes
up that there's a massive bigworld out there.
And obviously I'm now living inthe United States, but I've
(03:08):
spent much of the last 25 yearsliving around the world In the
US.
I actually got married, movedto Papua New Guinea for three
years, back to Australia, hadtwo kids, three kids moved to
the US just after 9-11 in 2001,with a three-year-old, a
two-year-old and an eight-weekold, which was a very difficult
(03:29):
move because one it was one ofthe first planes flying into the
US after 9-11.
We moved to Dallas.
I didn't know anyone, I thoughtI'd landed on Mars.
I had three tiny children andzero support system, and a
husband, but he worked very longhours.
So that was a difficult time,but it was also, as are all the
(03:51):
difficult times we have, thosetimes that actually help us
discover in ourselves strengthsand resourcefulness that we
mightn't have known.
We had and had a fourth child inTexas our Texas souvenir and
lived.
Then I moved to North Virginiaand was there for seven years,
then back to Australia for fiveyears, then to Singapore and
then COVID happened and I hadkids around the world and it was
(04:15):
a very difficult 2020.
But I've been back in theUnited States since the end of
2020.
And while I've got the familypersonal journey, I also have,
obviously, a professionaljourney of setting up my own
coaching and consulting businessin the US and then in Australia
and then in Asia, and nowrestarting it again in the US
(04:35):
again.
So yeah, and with a lot oftwists and turns and, honestly,
some heartaches and hardshipsalong the way from the family
perspective, but all of it hasonly ever fueled my passion and
deep sense of purpose abouthelping people show up for their
life with a bigger, open heart,you know, ready to fill the
(04:59):
full spectrum of life's emotionsand experiences and to really
use their talents, but also usethose things that test us the
most in ways that help us livemore meaningful lives.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
No, I love that and you're totally right.
I say that to people all thetime too right, my history is
what shapes me into who I amtoday and helps me, you know, be
who I am.
So I'd like to talk a littleabout the courage gap, and I
love when you start this bookyou really talk about if I just
had the guts, can you talk alittle about, you know, maybe an
(05:38):
experience you know, speakingup, why that's important to you,
why that's important to others.
Right To really just putthemselves out there.
You know, and don't importantto you why that's important to
others.
Right to really just putthemselves out there.
You know, and don't wait to dothat.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, it's interesting.
We're speaking, obviously, inMarch it's Women's History Month
and this weekend isInternational Women's Day, which
I'm guessing will have passedby the time your podcast goes
out but we talk a lot about,obviously, women and I think, as
a woman and having worked witha lot of women I've worked with
(06:11):
a lot of men but a lot of womenaround the world I feel as women
, we often are our own harshestcritics and we can doubt
ourselves so much more thanserves us.
We underestimate our abilitiesand we often overestimate the
dangers, and I think that thereis such a power that comes from
(06:35):
giving ourselves permission tojust step forward even though
we're not 100% sure what we'redoing.
We're afraid we might fallshort or be exposed as
inadequate and unworthy, andI've had the I continue to have
those voices.
I have them all the time.
I think the thing that I'vebecome better at is recognizing
(06:59):
that who I am is not the littlevoices of doubt in my head, and
who I am is, I mean, whollyworthy, fully lovable and
perfectly perfect, and that eachone of us has such a unique
combination of talents andhard-won wisdom and
(07:21):
opportunities to live life tothe full talents and hard-won
wisdom and opportunities to livelife to the full.
And yet we so often get in ourown way by thinking we need to
be more or know more or do morebefore we should start.
And I feel so strongly.
That's why I just actuallywrote a column for International
Women's Day on my blog and forForbes and said we shouldn't be
trying to prove our worth.
(07:42):
We need to just own our worth.
And if we, if we live from thatplace of I've got this, it
actually just liberates us totry so many more things than we
might otherwise try.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah, you know, this is exactly why I started our
conversation with this Like,let's bring it up, the imposter
syndrome is right there asTeresa and I are preparing to
have you on our you know, on ourpodcast.
There they are.
The voice is like Ooh, are weprepared enough?
Have we done enough episodes tobe able to handle a guest who
is an expert in this field, andso on and so on.
(08:15):
Right, and it's like, and if I'mnot training myself to catch
those, you know they, they showup as a certain kind of
electricity and the nervoussystem or a bit of a nervousness
in the throat.
You know they.
They show up as a certain kindof electricity in the nervous
system or a bit of a nervousnessin the throat.
You know so they're likephysical expressions of it, but
what's running in the backgroundis something along, you know,
along the lines of thesenarratives that are so deeply
(08:38):
like downloaded and installed,and it sounds to me like you
offer a lot of um, and it soundslike, also based on personal
experience, a lot of ways to youknow, I don't know, uninstall,
upload some and download somenew ways of you know, thinking
and behaving and, um, you know,thank you for that.
I know that one of the coolthings that you offer is a I
(09:02):
don't know if we would call it atool, but Teresa told me about
your three Ps.
It seems like there's a lotpacked into that tiny little
expression, three Ps that couldbe helpful in you know, working
with these narratives that don'tserve and really, you know, are
harmful.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Well, I think, ivana, the fact is that all of us have
got a talk track going in ourhead all the time, and our talk
track sometimes is serving usand helping us move forward and
navigate our challenges andpursue whatever it is that we
really want to be doing with ourlives.
And sometimes it's not.
(09:39):
Sometimes it's making us feelmore stressed than we need to be
.
Sometimes it's keeping us small, it's shrinking us down.
Sometimes it is giving us aircover to live a little safer and
more comfortable.
Sometimes it's keeping us stuckin our comfort zone in ways
that, honestly, it might feelnice in the moment that I just,
(10:02):
you know I'm not putting myselfout there.
It might feel nice in themoment that I just, you know I'm
not putting myself out there,but it doesn't feel nice over
time.
And so that's why I think thereis a really huge amount of
power that we gain as we learnto challenge what we're telling
ourselves, because noteverything we tell ourselves is
true.
And if you think about impostersyndrome that you just
(10:25):
mentioned well, impostersyndrome, this phenomenon that
was studied back in theseventies, it is essentially the
emotions we feel, which is akind of a low grade anxiety,
that we're going to bediscovered as not being worthy,
as a fraud, as an imposter,unworthy of the position that
(10:48):
we're in, of the status that wehave, of the success that we are
enjoying.
And I think women struggle withit more because and the data
shows women do not internalizetheir successes as much as the
men that we spend our lives withand this is not a criticism of
men.
But when we succeed atsomething, we're more likely to
(11:10):
attribute that success tohelping hand great mentor, we
got lucky, right time, rightplace, to our team, great people
around us versus to ourselves.
We worked hard, we studied hard, we put ourselves out there,
(11:32):
we're good at what we're doing,we're talented.
We don't internalize it andgive ourselves some credit.
And that's not to say that weshouldn't give attribution to
other people that have helped us, and sometimes there is an
element of luck, but weover-attribute to those things
and we under-attribute toourselves.
And when we mess up or when wedon't nail it, we over-attribute
(11:52):
to ourselves and weunder-attribute to other factors
.
And so they're all based on thestories we're telling ourselves
like, oh, I just got lucky andoh, I'm such an idiot and I
shouldn't have done this and Ishould have done that.
And so just even just steppingback and just going, what is it
I'm telling myself right nowthat's making me feel like I'm
(12:13):
unworthy, or people are going torecognize I don't belong here,
or I shouldn't be here, etcetera.
And so, knowing that noteverything we tell ourselves is
true if you are not what you'retelling yourself, but it shapes
you, it shapes how you feel.
So ask yourself what's anotherstory I could tell myself that
(12:34):
would fuel a sense of power,that I would feel more empowered
by that story.
So that's one of the P's thatwould make me feel more positive
about my future versus moreanxious about my future, and
that aligns with what gives me asense of purpose and meaning.
So I have everything it takesto meet this challenge.
(12:56):
I haven't figured it all outyet, but I'm going to figure it
out, and I know I'm going togrow from this time, and I know
the experiences that I've foundso hard are ones that have
helped me discover things aboutmyself I would never have
discovered.
And I have everything it takesto meet the future, as uncertain
as it may be.
That's a very different storythan oh my God, I'm so stressed
(13:19):
out.
This is a complete nightmarescenario.
I don't know what I'm doing.
You can use both those storiesto describe someone in the same
situation, but one helps us stepforward, feeling more powerful,
positive and purposeful, andone makes us anxious and makes
us feel small.
So, just recognizing you createyour stories.
(13:39):
But your stories then createyou, and they're not just
descriptive of yourcircumstances, they're also
generative.
They create circumstances foryou as well.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
The beautiful description and it really
resonates.
And I'm wondering if you couldgive us a personal example of
that transformation, becauseI've noticed that in my own work
sometimes when we work with aspecific you know example, it
can land even more deeply.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Well, I have so many and I'm like, which one do I
share?
Do I go to a really hard oneshare?
Do I go to a really hard one?
Do I go to a slightly easiertime?
Um, I mean, all the time I'mcatching myself in stories and I
there's two.
I'm going to start with withone of them.
(14:30):
When I didn't know that, myhusband, we moved our children
across the world, from Australiato the US, because we were told
that we would be moved here andwe wanted to.
They needed to get bedded in tofinish their high school.
So we moved our children 10,000miles away, two of them our
kids, two of our four children,and that was really hard for me,
I was really sad about it, butit was because we were going to
(14:53):
get the benefit of them beingbedded in the US education
system ahead of us moving in 12,18 months time.
And then we waited and wewaited and we waited and then,
after three years, my husband'scompany said we've changed our
mind.
We want to move you toSingapore.
And I was so upset.
I was, honestly, I was furious.
I was mad at my husband, I wasmad at his company, I was mad at
(15:15):
myself.
I was just, I was sad that thissacrifice wasn't going to pay
off because we, we, we weren'teven going back to the, to the
country that we thought we weregoing to, and we were getting
moved to Singapore, which, youknow, I had zero intention of
plans to to live there.
And I remember, as I pickedmyself up off the ground,
(15:39):
thinking, all right, this iswhat's happening, so how do I
make the best of this?
This is I can describe this asat the time honestly, I won't
use the language, but it was acluster, you know and then a
four letter word in terms of ourfamily, and then I thought, you
know, I can just be mad andblaming and resentful, or I can
go.
How do I turn this into a win?
(16:00):
How can I look at this througha lens that turns it into a win?
Okay, my older kids, they'reall right.
I mean, I have to fly 10,000miles to go to a parent teacher
conference, but I can do it.
Thankfully, I'm fit and I cantravel.
Well.
And for my other kids moving toSingapore, well, I guess
they're going to have anothercountry experience as teenagers.
They were 14 and 16.
(16:21):
And so, instead of calling it,you know, a complete mess up.
I decided I'm going to call ita plot twist in the storybook of
my life and that changing thatlanguage Okay, here's a plot
twist in the story of my lifeDidn't see this one coming.
But how do we turn this into awin?
I'm going to make sure I thrivein this chapter and no, it's
(16:42):
not easy and it's definitelydifficult parenting kids across
continents but I'm going to.
I'm just going to find the winsin this, and it was.
It was, from a familyperspective, challenging but
professionally massivelyrewarding to be based in this
real hub, epicenter of Asia.
But another one that wasprobably a more profoundly
(17:05):
transformative one for me was inmy 20s.
I was living in Papua NewGuinea.
I found myself in a prettyviolent armed robbery and I had
a gun at my head.
There was sort of a threat ofrape, gang rape with these Papua
New Guinean men who'd come totake cash from the premises
where I was working.
So I was at work and I wasn'thurt, but it was pretty shaking
(17:30):
to be in that situation with agun at my head, and I share this
story in my TEDx talk for thosewho want to hear the full story
and the details, but then, justa few days later, I found out I
was actually four and a halfmonths pregnant and I found out
that that baby had died and itwas my first pregnancy.
And I remember just the twoevents were.
(17:52):
The first one was traumatic,but the second one, right on the
back of it, was just.
It was two massive events thatwere two of the most traumatic
events of my life within days ofeach other.
And I remember, in theaftermath of that, I mean I was
deeply grieving this first childthat you know I already had
grown up as an adult.
You know like I was totallyalready to me they were a fully
(18:17):
alive person, even though I'dnever met them, and so it was a
period of deep grief and shockand my whole world had fallen
apart.
You know, like just in terms ofthe future I thought was coming
in and my even construction ofthe world, that that stuff
didn't happen to me.
I didn't ever think I'd be inthis violent armed robbery.
I never thought that I wouldlose a baby and I know it's
(18:40):
common, but I didn't think itwould happen to me.
And I remember, in the aftermathof that, writing in my journal
a lot, praying, maybe raging alittle bit like what the hell
God, you know, but how can thishappen?
A little bit like what the hellGod, but how can this happen?
(19:01):
But then, getting really clear,as I received a lot of sympathy
, but I did not want to bedefined as a victim.
I mean, people were treating meas a victim because in some
ways I was a victim, but Ididn't want to be defined as a
victim.
I didn't want to think ofmyself as woe me, poor me,
because there was numerous womenaround me that ended up.
(19:21):
Their pregnancies continued.
I didn't like looking at them.
It hurt me, but I was jealous,I was envious, but I remember
thinking I will not be definedby this experience.
I don't want to be seen as avictim.
I don't want to hold myself asa victim.
Don't want to be seen as avictim.
I don't want to hold myself asa victim.
And it was a key distinctionbetween being a victim and
(19:43):
victimhood, and the mindset of avictim versus the experience of
being a victim.
And I decided how do I findsomething positive in this?
And I actually went back tostudy psychology.
It actually ended up being acatalyst for me to shift career
paths.
I was in marketing and I wentback and studied psychology I
was already interested in itbefore that which honestly sent
(20:06):
me onto the path I'm on today,you know.
I then went and trained as acoach and then I've worked in
leadership development andobviously writing books and
speaking and all the things thathave happened since, and I
don't know that I would havedone that had I not had those
experiences, but it certainly itaccelerated that decision.
I'm changing pathprofessionally and you know what
(20:26):
I'm blessed.
I went on to have four children,you know and so but but that
experience was one where thestory I was, I was close to
being in a story that would havecast me as powerless, not
positive about my future and noton purpose, and instead, no,
I'm going to use this experienceto be more powerful, to be more
(20:47):
positive and to be morepurposeful.
And that was obviously a prettyseismic event in terms of life
events.
But I think all of us all thetimes I mean every day stuff
happens.
If you've got kids, stuffhappens.
The times I mean every daystuff happens If you've got kids
, stuff happens.
If you're in a relationship,stuff happens.
In a job, stuff happens.
What's another narrative youcan construct about this that
doesn't leave you feeling like avictim of circumstance, but as
(21:10):
really as the captain of yourfuture and not as a captive of
your circumstance.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah Well, thank you first of all for sharing that
story, because I've heard youtell that story before and it is
.
It does strike me every singletime I hear you tell that story
Right, that you could have that,could have gone a completely
different way, but I do love howyou frame that in such a way
that that story moves youforward, maybe change your
career path, and I'm a firmbeliever in that.
(21:36):
You know, things like thatoften do shape us or move us in
a different direction, and maybethat's the direction we were
meant to be in.
One of the other things thatstruck me in your book was you
talk about fear and failure.
There's times we're fearful ofthings, there's times we fail.
That just happens Right andagain, like your story there, it
(21:57):
brings us forward.
Can you talk about using ourcourage to kind of overcome?
Fear failure, some of thosekinds of things, and kind of
your best advice or anotherstory.
You can tell us that kind ofties, that in yeah, I mean,
let's just start with fear.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Fear isn't a bad thing.
We, as a species, wouldn't behere if not for fear.
Fear is what has enabled us tosurvive.
So fear isn't a bad thing.
But in the world we live intoday, where our brains have not
changed much in 60,000 yearscertainly, you know, in the last
(22:38):
100 years our brains are thesame, but the world we live in
is phenomenally different withtechnology We've found ourselves
in a situation where we'repommeled all the time with
reasons to be afraid, eventhough it's the safest time in
human history to be alive and sorecognizing.
It's not that our fear is theproblem, it's the power we give
our fear and our inability attimes to discern between the
(23:01):
fears that are serving us andthe fears that are holding us
back.
Fear of failure is one of I meanobviously many different fears.
We don't want to fail becauseit hurts our sense of self.
We don't like to think ofourselves as failing at things.
We don't want to lose somethingthat we presently value.
(23:21):
No one wants to fail, but whatwe often get wrong when we think
about it is that you can'tachieve anything worthwhile
unless you risk failing.
Because if it was easy, 100%guaranteed that if you wanted to
do it you could do it.
Then I've got a question likeis it actually worth the pursuit
, do it?
(23:42):
Then I've got a question likeis it actually worth the pursuit
If you 100% knew that youcouldn't fail in any way and
your journey towards somethingworthwhile would it actually be
as worthwhile an experience ifyou weren't having to exert
yourself and try things and putyourself out there and not
always land a perfect 10.
And so failure is what enablesus to learn what works and what
(24:04):
doesn't, and how to grow andbuild our skill.
I mean the work, carol,directed in the growth mindset.
I mean we can't grow and masternew things unless we give
ourselves permission to gothrough the learning process
from incompetence to competenceand kind of blunder along and be
a little scrappy at times andget it wrong.
I think about this with my veryfirst book.
(24:25):
I went to a tiny school.
I was actually the smartest kidin my grade.
I was the ducks of my classevery year because I was
actually the only kid in mygrade for my entire elementary,
and so when I got into adulthoodI was aware that I probably
missed a few lessons.
(24:45):
We had one teacher for anentire school and I was always
very present to the fact that Ididn't even I never learned what
a conjunctive verb was.
There's so many things I didn'tlearn about the English
language and I honestly stilldon't know.
And so I remember wanting towrite a book but being so aware
of I don't know.
There's a lot of things I don'tknow.
(25:06):
I was passionate about what Ido, but I'm not.
I never studied writing orliterature.
But I remember talking to myhusband and going I'm afraid I'm
going to write a terrible book,I'm afraid that I'm not going
to be skilled enough as a writer, I'm afraid that I don't have
what it takes, I'm afraid I needto know more.
And he said you know, honey,why don't you just give yourself
(25:27):
permission to write the bestbook you can?
And when you have all theanswers to all the problems of
the world and you are theworld's best writer, you can
write another book.
Then.
And it gave me that shift inmindset, kind of like I gave
myself permission to fail atwriting the world's most
brilliant book, but just towrite the best book I can.
(25:48):
And so I stepped in and wrotethat first book.
And was it the world's best book?
No, but was it the world'sworst book?
I don't think it was probablythe world's worst book either.
I'm pretty sure it was probablysomewhere in the middle of all
the books of the world.
But so many times I remember thesame having a fourth child
going oh, do I have what ittakes to have a fourth child and
(26:10):
also pursue a career?
And I just had to give myselfpermission to figure it out as
I'd go along.
And were there many days Ifailed to be a perfect mother?
A thousand days I failed to bea perfect mother.
In fact, I don't know therewere as many days I would have
succeeded in being a perfectmother.
But I think when you giveyourself permission not to do
something brilliantly, not to bean Einstein before you start
(26:32):
out, not to be wholly masterfulat whatever it is, to give
yourself space to fail at times,not in drastic, catastrophic
ways, but just to fail andhaving the perfect outcome and
in perfect execution, itactually liberates you to try
all sorts of things youotherwise wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
That is really motivating.
And it really is extramotivating because we've heard
you talk about these extremelypainful experiences.
You know, because this is wherewe know that we're in the
presence of someone who hasexperienced many pivots and you
know, for us, the definition ofpivot on this show is that what
(27:14):
you were describing as when theplot thickens, when there's a
plot twist, and I noticed thatin all of the invitation.
You know that, invitations thatyou've initiated here when you
say, for example, you know, giveyourself permission and then so
on.
Or you know, consider writing adifferent story in your mind.
Consider, you know that thiscould be viewed from a different
(27:37):
lens In my experience, and Iwonder if you agree as we start
to.
You know that this could beviewed from a different lens In
my experience and I wonder ifyou agree as we start to.
You know, conclude ourconversation.
That is what takes a lot ofcourage.
We have really really goodreasons why these programs of
different ways of operating arein and so firmly holding on, and
it does take a really braveheart to give ourselves that
(28:02):
permission.
So, as you consider thesedifficult experiences you've
lived through and how they'veserved you, you've talked about
that so beautifully here.
Can you help us tie it alltogether?
The question that we ask thatis essentially the same for all
the guests guests, and you havebeen in this conversation with
us.
The entire episode is how wereall these pivots and how is a
(28:24):
pivot, how is, when the plotthickens, a step forward?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
yeah, I mean.
The fact is was einstein thatonce said you know, the biggest
decision we ever make is if welive in a friendly or hostile
universe.
And I think it was Rumi whosaid you know, live every day as
though life is rigged in yourfavor and when you're in the
middle of a situation that youwould not have chosen, it's easy
(28:49):
to feel like what the hell?
It feels like life is workingagainst me and, let's face it,
life often has circumstancesthat can feel unfair and
unwanted and you didn't plan for.
But even if you chose to make achange, even if you chose to
leave a job, leave arelationship, move across the
country and do some form ofpivot, it's still not easy.
(29:12):
I mean it's still difficultbecause it's new and it's
unfamiliar and you're having tofigure things out in ways you
hadn't have to figure out.
So either way, whether it'schange imposed or change chosen,
it's still uncomfortable attimes, it's still
(29:34):
psychologically unnerving andunsettling.
But I know for me and I've hada lot of situations where you
know some I've chosen,absolutely, I've chosen to
pursue something that's beenmake a pivot, and other times
I've just been forced to.
But it comes down to that, tothat to that still is.
Choice is to choose whereveryou are, to say yes to life.
I sometimes talk about take theroad less traveled.
(29:55):
Well, sometimes you just findyourself on the road, less
traveled, whether you wanted itor not.
Just say yes to it and askyourself what is the mindset I
need to bring to this thatenables me to experience this
with a little more peace and alittle less angst, and then
(30:16):
emerge out of it as a betterhuman, coming out the other side
?
Because if you want life to goa certain way, to line up
exactly with your plans, you'regoing to spend your entire life
stressed out, but instead go.
You know what life's happeningfor me?
It's not happening to me andI'm going to say yes to this and
I'm going to just continuallylean in, even when I don't know
(30:37):
what good can come of this.
And you know, in my previousbook You've Got this I talked
about walking the path of faithover fear, and I have a lot of
faith that all of us are here tolive a purpose that's uniquely
our own and that actually it'sthe situations often that we
wouldn't have chosen, thebiggest challenges we have, that
(30:58):
enable us to live our purposein deeper ways, in more
meaningful ways, and so maybe,even in the midst of a situation
that you thought was ruiningyour path, it's actually
revealing your path, it'sactually helping you live your
purpose in ways you couldn'thave had everything just gone
your way.
And so I think, at the end ofthe day, we always get to choose
(31:19):
how we respond to circumstances, even though we might not
always feel we get a choice inthose circumstances.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Well, thank you so much.
I mean that just summed it upbeautifully.
So we really, really appreciateyou being here today.
Thank you, dr Margie Worrell,her new book, the Courage Gap.
I would really encourage you toread it because I got a lot of
tidbits from it and we know thatyou are very busy.
So we truly appreciate youtaking time out of your day to
(31:50):
talk with us, to talk with ourlisteners.
You know, we really thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Well, thank you for having me, teresa and Ivana,
it's been lovely to speak withyou too, and Thank you.
Well, thank you for having me,teresa and Ivana.
It's been lovely to speak withyou too, and I'm delighted that
I've got to speak and speak intothe hearts and the minds of the
people who listen to yourpodcast.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Awesome, amazing.
So thank you everybody.
Thank you, Ivana, thank you, wewill talk to you all in two
weeks, to all of our listeners,and remember if you have a pivot
step into it.
Hello everybody and welcome to today's episode of
Step Into the Pivot, where wehave a phenomenal guest and
speaker, margie Worrell.
I am, margie, here, beingreally encouraged and
essentially tested.
I'm in the practice of lookingat any potential imposter
(00:25):
syndrome issues that might comeup.
That is something that you know, teresa, and I talk about a lot
, and when we were looking atyour bio, when we were looking
at your life's work, oh mygoodness, in the business of
helping other people tap intocourage, tap into sense of, you
(00:45):
know, inner leadership and thenexternal leadership of their own
life, whether that's at work orat home.
Here you are really leadingthat movement and we are so, so
proud and happy to have you,have you here on the show.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Well, thanks for having me.
Great to be with you.
You heavy here on the show.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Welcome.
Well, thanks for having me.
Great to be with you and lovelyto see Teresa again.
Yes, so, thank you so much.
So, margie, you and I met byaccident a few years ago four or
five years ago maybe.
We were at an event inWashington DC of all places that
I live in Phoenix, so I was wayout of my element.
We were early to the event.
There weren't many people thereand we just walked up and
started talking.
And, you know, after the event,there were many people there
(01:30):
and we just walked up andstarted talking.
And you know, after the fact I Irealized who you were.
You gave me your card and Ithink you gave you mine and we
kind of stayed in touch, I mean.
So I am super happy to have youhere and, to be honest, your
newest book, the Courage Gap,which I want to remind our
listeners, is an amazing bookI've already read it twice, so
and a five star review.
So, as women, you findourselves in this situation.
So can you maybe start ourconversation, give our listeners
(01:54):
a little bit of your background, because you you started life
in rural Australia and nowyou're this.
So can you kind of take usthrough that a little bit?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Oh yeah, you know, when people say tell me your
story, I'm like how long do wehave?
What's the short version?
You know when you've had enoughlaps around the sun and you
live life very fully, as I do,and in a very global life,
there's many, many, manychapters and parts to it.
But yes, I grew up on a dairyfarm in rural Australia about
(02:25):
four hours from Melbourne.
Big sister of seven, dad milkedcows.
It was a pretty simple organic.
Before organic was a buzz word.
It was organic because wecouldn't afford any fast food or
going out anywhere.
So childhood and headed off touniversity and then, after I
(02:46):
graduated, a person in my wholefamily to go to university.
I went backpacking around theworld, saved up my money and
traveled very, very, veryfrugally around the world for a
couple of years.
I went, got back and went againand I think that opened my eyes
up that there's a massive bigworld out there.
And obviously I'm now living inthe United States, but I've
(03:08):
spent much of the last 25 yearsliving around the world In the
US.
I actually got married, movedto Papua New Guinea for three
years, back to Australia, hadtwo kids, three kids moved to
the US just after 9-11 in 2001,with a three-year-old, a
two-year-old and an eight-weekold, which was a very difficult
(03:29):
move because one it was one ofthe first planes flying into the
US after 9-11.
We moved to Dallas.
I didn't know anyone, I thoughtI'd landed on Mars.
I had three tiny children andzero support system, and a
husband, but he worked very longhours.
So that was a difficult time,but it was also, as are all the
(03:51):
difficult times we have, thosetimes that actually help us
discover in ourselves strengthsand resourcefulness that we
mightn't have known.
We had and had a fourth child inTexas our Texas souvenir and
lived.
Then I moved to North Virginiaand was there for seven years,
then back to Australia for fiveyears, then to Singapore and
then COVID happened and I hadkids around the world and it was
(04:15):
a very difficult 2020.
But I've been back in theUnited States since the end of
2020.
And while I've got the familypersonal journey, I also have,
obviously, a professionaljourney of setting up my own
coaching and consulting businessin the US and then in Australia
and then in Asia, and nowrestarting it again in the US
(04:35):
again.
So yeah, and with a lot oftwists and turns and, honestly,
some heartaches and hardshipsalong the way from the family
perspective, but all of it hasonly ever fueled my passion and
deep sense of purpose abouthelping people show up for their
life with a bigger, open heart,you know, ready to fill the
(04:59):
full spectrum of life's emotionsand experiences and to really
use their talents, but also usethose things that test us the
most in ways that help us livemore meaningful lives.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
No, I love that and you're totally right.
I say that to people all thetime too right, my history is
what shapes me into who I amtoday and helps me, you know, be
who I am.
So I'd like to talk a littleabout the courage gap, and I
love when you start this bookyou really talk about if I just
had the guts, can you talk alittle about, you know, maybe an
(05:38):
experience you know, speakingup, why that's important to you,
why that's important to others.
Right To really just putthemselves out there.
You know, and don't importantto you why that's important to
others.
Right to really just putthemselves out there.
You know, and don't wait to dothat.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, it's interesting.
We're speaking, obviously, inMarch it's Women's History Month
and this weekend isInternational Women's Day, which
I'm guessing will have passedby the time your podcast goes
out but we talk a lot about,obviously, women and I think, as
a woman and having worked witha lot of women I've worked with
(06:11):
a lot of men but a lot of womenaround the world I feel as women
, we often are our own harshestcritics and we can doubt
ourselves so much more thanserves us.
We underestimate our abilitiesand we often overestimate the
dangers, and I think that thereis such a power that comes from
(06:35):
giving ourselves permission tojust step forward even though
we're not 100% sure what we'redoing.
We're afraid we might fallshort or be exposed as
inadequate and unworthy, andI've had the I continue to have
those voices.
I have them all the time.
I think the thing that I'vebecome better at is recognizing
(06:59):
that who I am is not the littlevoices of doubt in my head, and
who I am is, I mean, whollyworthy, fully lovable and
perfectly perfect, and that eachone of us has such a unique
combination of talents andhard-won wisdom and
(07:21):
opportunities to live life tothe full talents and hard-won
wisdom and opportunities to livelife to the full.
And yet we so often get in ourown way by thinking we need to
be more or know more or do morebefore we should start.
And I feel so strongly.
That's why I just actuallywrote a column for International
Women's Day on my blog and forForbes and said we shouldn't be
trying to prove our worth.
(07:42):
We need to just own our worth.
And if we, if we live from thatplace of I've got this, it
actually just liberates us totry so many more things than we
might otherwise try.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah, you know, this is exactly why I started our
conversation with this Like,let's bring it up, the imposter
syndrome is right there asTeresa and I are preparing to
have you on our you know, on ourpodcast.
There they are.
The voice is like Ooh, are weprepared enough?
Have we done enough episodes tobe able to handle a guest who
is an expert in this field, andso on and so on.
(08:15):
Right, and it's like, and if I'mnot training myself to catch
those, you know they, they showup as a certain kind of
electricity and the nervoussystem or a bit of a nervousness
in the throat.
You know they.
They show up as a certain kindof electricity in the nervous
system or a bit of a nervousnessin the throat.
You know so they're likephysical expressions of it, but
what's running in the backgroundis something along, you know,
along the lines of thesenarratives that are so deeply
(08:38):
like downloaded and installed,and it sounds to me like you
offer a lot of um, and it soundslike, also based on personal
experience, a lot of ways to youknow, I don't know, uninstall,
upload some and download somenew ways of you know, thinking
and behaving and, um, you know,thank you for that.
I know that one of the coolthings that you offer is a I
(09:02):
don't know if we would call it atool, but Teresa told me about
your three Ps.
It seems like there's a lotpacked into that tiny little
expression, three Ps that couldbe helpful in you know, working
with these narratives that don'tserve and really, you know, are
harmful.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Well, I think, ivana, the fact is that all of us have
got a talk track going in ourhead all the time, and our talk
track sometimes is serving usand helping us move forward and
navigate our challenges andpursue whatever it is that we
really want to be doing with ourlives.
And sometimes it's not.
(09:39):
Sometimes it's making us feelmore stressed than we need to be
.
Sometimes it's keeping us small, it's shrinking us down.
Sometimes it is giving us aircover to live a little safer and
more comfortable.
Sometimes it's keeping us stuckin our comfort zone in ways
that, honestly, it might feelnice in the moment that I just,
(10:02):
you know I'm not putting myselfout there.
It might feel nice in themoment that I just, you know I'm
not putting myself out there,but it doesn't feel nice over
time.
And so that's why I think thereis a really huge amount of
power that we gain as we learnto challenge what we're telling
ourselves, because noteverything we tell ourselves is
true.
And if you think about impostersyndrome that you just
(10:25):
mentioned well, impostersyndrome, this phenomenon that
was studied back in theseventies, it is essentially the
emotions we feel, which is akind of a low grade anxiety,
that we're going to bediscovered as not being worthy,
as a fraud, as an imposter,unworthy of the position that
(10:48):
we're in, of the status that wehave, of the success that we are
enjoying.
And I think women struggle withit more because and the data
shows women do not internalizetheir successes as much as the
men that we spend our lives withand this is not a criticism of
men.
But when we succeed atsomething, we're more likely to
(11:10):
attribute that success tohelping hand great mentor, we
got lucky, right time, rightplace, to our team, great people
around us versus to ourselves.
We worked hard, we studied hard, we put ourselves out there,
(11:32):
we're good at what we're doing,we're talented.
We don't internalize it andgive ourselves some credit.
And that's not to say that weshouldn't give attribution to
other people that have helped us, and sometimes there is an
element of luck, but weover-attribute to those things
and we under-attribute toourselves.
And when we mess up or when wedon't nail it, we over-attribute
(11:52):
to ourselves and weunder-attribute to other factors
.
And so they're all based on thestories we're telling ourselves
like, oh, I just got lucky andoh, I'm such an idiot and I
shouldn't have done this and Ishould have done that.
And so just even just steppingback and just going, what is it
I'm telling myself right nowthat's making me feel like I'm
(12:13):
unworthy, or people are going torecognize I don't belong here,
or I shouldn't be here, etcetera.
And so, knowing that noteverything we tell ourselves is
true if you are not what you'retelling yourself, but it shapes
you, it shapes how you feel.
So ask yourself what's anotherstory I could tell myself that
(12:34):
would fuel a sense of power,that I would feel more empowered
by that story.
So that's one of the P's thatwould make me feel more positive
about my future versus moreanxious about my future, and
that aligns with what gives me asense of purpose and meaning.
So I have everything it takesto meet this challenge.
(12:56):
I haven't figured it all outyet, but I'm going to figure it
out, and I know I'm going togrow from this time, and I know
the experiences that I've foundso hard are ones that have
helped me discover things aboutmyself I would never have
discovered.
And I have everything it takesto meet the future, as uncertain
as it may be.
That's a very different storythan oh my God, I'm so stressed
(13:19):
out.
This is a complete nightmarescenario.
I don't know what I'm doing.
You can use both those storiesto describe someone in the same
situation, but one helps us stepforward, feeling more powerful,
positive and purposeful, andone makes us anxious and makes
us feel small.
So, just recognizing you createyour stories.
(13:39):
But your stories then createyou, and they're not just
descriptive of yourcircumstances, they're also
generative.
They create circumstances foryou as well.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
The beautiful description and it really
resonates.
And I'm wondering if you couldgive us a personal example of
that transformation, becauseI've noticed that in my own work
sometimes when we work with aspecific you know example, it
can land even more deeply.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Well, I have so many and I'm like, which one do I
share?
Do I go to a really hard oneshare?
Do I go to a really hard one?
Do I go to a slightly easiertime?
Um, I mean, all the time I'mcatching myself in stories and I
there's two.
I'm going to start with withone of them.
(14:30):
When I didn't know that, myhusband, we moved our children
across the world, from Australiato the US, because we were told
that we would be moved here andwe wanted to.
They needed to get bedded in tofinish their high school.
So we moved our children 10,000miles away, two of them our
kids, two of our four children,and that was really hard for me,
I was really sad about it, butit was because we were going to
(14:53):
get the benefit of them beingbedded in the US education
system ahead of us moving in 12,18 months time.
And then we waited and wewaited and we waited and then,
after three years, my husband'scompany said we've changed our
mind.
We want to move you toSingapore.
And I was so upset.
I was, honestly, I was furious.
I was mad at my husband, I wasmad at his company, I was mad at
(15:15):
myself.
I was just, I was sad that thissacrifice wasn't going to pay
off because we, we, we weren'teven going back to the, to the
country that we thought we weregoing to, and we were getting
moved to Singapore, which, youknow, I had zero intention of
plans to to live there.
And I remember, as I pickedmyself up off the ground,
(15:39):
thinking, all right, this iswhat's happening, so how do I
make the best of this?
This is I can describe this asat the time honestly, I won't
use the language, but it was acluster, you know and then a
four letter word in terms of ourfamily, and then I thought, you
know, I can just be mad andblaming and resentful, or I can
go.
How do I turn this into a win?
(16:00):
How can I look at this througha lens that turns it into a win?
Okay, my older kids, they'reall right.
I mean, I have to fly 10,000miles to go to a parent teacher
conference, but I can do it.
Thankfully, I'm fit and I cantravel.
Well.
And for my other kids moving toSingapore, well, I guess
they're going to have anothercountry experience as teenagers.
They were 14 and 16.
(16:21):
And so, instead of calling it,you know, a complete mess up.
I decided I'm going to call ita plot twist in the storybook of
my life and that changing thatlanguage Okay, here's a plot
twist in the story of my lifeDidn't see this one coming.
But how do we turn this into awin?
I'm going to make sure I thrivein this chapter and no, it's
(16:42):
not easy and it's definitelydifficult parenting kids across
continents but I'm going to.
I'm just going to find the winsin this, and it was.
It was, from a familyperspective, challenging but
professionally massivelyrewarding to be based in this
real hub, epicenter of Asia.
But another one that wasprobably a more profoundly
(17:05):
transformative one for me was inmy 20s.
I was living in Papua NewGuinea.
I found myself in a prettyviolent armed robbery and I had
a gun at my head.
There was sort of a threat ofrape, gang rape with these Papua
New Guinean men who'd come totake cash from the premises
where I was working.
So I was at work and I wasn'thurt, but it was pretty shaking
(17:30):
to be in that situation with agun at my head, and I share this
story in my TEDx talk for thosewho want to hear the full story
and the details, but then, justa few days later, I found out I
was actually four and a halfmonths pregnant and I found out
that that baby had died and itwas my first pregnancy.
And I remember just the twoevents were.
(17:52):
The first one was traumatic,but the second one, right on the
back of it, was just.
It was two massive events thatwere two of the most traumatic
events of my life within days ofeach other.
And I remember, in theaftermath of that, I mean I was
deeply grieving this first childthat you know I already had
grown up as an adult.
You know like I was totallyalready to me they were a fully
(18:17):
alive person, even though I'dnever met them, and so it was a
period of deep grief and shockand my whole world had fallen
apart.
You know, like just in terms ofthe future I thought was coming
in and my even construction ofthe world, that that stuff
didn't happen to me.
I didn't ever think I'd be inthis violent armed robbery.
I never thought that I wouldlose a baby and I know it's
(18:40):
common, but I didn't think itwould happen to me.
And I remember, in the aftermathof that, writing in my journal
a lot, praying, maybe raging alittle bit like what the hell
God, you know, but how can thishappen?
A little bit like what the hellGod, but how can this happen?
(19:01):
But then, getting really clear,as I received a lot of sympathy
, but I did not want to bedefined as a victim.
I mean, people were treating meas a victim because in some
ways I was a victim, but Ididn't want to be defined as a
victim.
I didn't want to think ofmyself as woe me, poor me,
because there was numerous womenaround me that ended up.
(19:21):
Their pregnancies continued.
I didn't like looking at them.
It hurt me, but I was jealous,I was envious, but I remember
thinking I will not be definedby this experience.
I don't want to be seen as avictim.
I don't want to hold myself asa victim.
Don't want to be seen as avictim.
I don't want to hold myself asa victim.
And it was a key distinctionbetween being a victim and
(19:43):
victimhood, and the mindset of avictim versus the experience of
being a victim.
And I decided how do I findsomething positive in this?
And I actually went back tostudy psychology.
It actually ended up being acatalyst for me to shift career
paths.
I was in marketing and I wentback and studied psychology I
was already interested in itbefore that which honestly sent
(20:06):
me onto the path I'm on today,you know.
I then went and trained as acoach and then I've worked in
leadership development andobviously writing books and
speaking and all the things thathave happened since, and I
don't know that I would havedone that had I not had those
experiences, but it certainly itaccelerated that decision.
I'm changing pathprofessionally and you know what
(20:26):
I'm blessed.
I went on to have four children,you know and so but but that
experience was one where thestory I was, I was close to
being in a story that would havecast me as powerless, not
positive about my future and noton purpose, and instead, no,
I'm going to use this experienceto be more powerful, to be more
(20:47):
positive and to be morepurposeful.
And that was obviously a prettyseismic event in terms of life
events.
But I think all of us all thetimes I mean every day stuff
happens.
If you've got kids, stuffhappens.
The times I mean every daystuff happens If you've got kids
, stuff happens.
If you're in a relationship,stuff happens.
In a job, stuff happens.
What's another narrative youcan construct about this that
doesn't leave you feeling like avictim of circumstance, but as
(21:10):
really as the captain of yourfuture and not as a captive of
your circumstance.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah Well, thank you first of all for sharing that
story, because I've heard youtell that story before and it is
.
It does strike me every singletime I hear you tell that story
Right, that you could have that,could have gone a completely
different way, but I do love howyou frame that in such a way
that that story moves youforward, maybe change your
career path, and I'm a firmbeliever in that.
(21:36):
You know, things like thatoften do shape us or move us in
a different direction, and maybethat's the direction we were
meant to be in.
One of the other things thatstruck me in your book was you
talk about fear and failure.
There's times we're fearful ofthings, there's times we fail.
That just happens Right andagain, like your story there, it
(21:57):
brings us forward.
Can you talk about using ourcourage to kind of overcome?
Fear failure, some of thosekinds of things, and kind of
your best advice or anotherstory.
You can tell us that kind ofties, that in yeah, I mean,
let's just start with fear.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Fear isn't a bad thing.
We, as a species, wouldn't behere if not for fear.
Fear is what has enabled us tosurvive.
So fear isn't a bad thing.
But in the world we live intoday, where our brains have not
changed much in 60,000 yearscertainly, you know, in the last
(22:38):
100 years our brains are thesame, but the world we live in
is phenomenally different withtechnology We've found ourselves
in a situation where we'repommeled all the time with
reasons to be afraid, eventhough it's the safest time in
human history to be alive and sorecognizing.
It's not that our fear is theproblem, it's the power we give
our fear and our inability attimes to discern between the
(23:01):
fears that are serving us andthe fears that are holding us
back.
Fear of failure is one of I meanobviously many different fears.
We don't want to fail becauseit hurts our sense of self.
We don't like to think ofourselves as failing at things.
We don't want to lose somethingthat we presently value.
(23:21):
No one wants to fail, but whatwe often get wrong when we think
about it is that you can'tachieve anything worthwhile
unless you risk failing.
Because if it was easy, 100%guaranteed that if you wanted to
do it you could do it.
Then I've got a question likeis it actually worth the pursuit
, do it?
(23:42):
Then I've got a question likeis it actually worth the pursuit
If you 100% knew that youcouldn't fail in any way and
your journey towards somethingworthwhile would it actually be
as worthwhile an experience ifyou weren't having to exert
yourself and try things and putyourself out there and not
always land a perfect 10.
And so failure is what enablesus to learn what works and what
(24:04):
doesn't, and how to grow andbuild our skill.
I mean the work, carol,directed in the growth mindset.
I mean we can't grow and masternew things unless we give
ourselves permission to gothrough the learning process
from incompetence to competenceand kind of blunder along and be
a little scrappy at times andget it wrong.
I think about this with my veryfirst book.
(24:25):
I went to a tiny school.
I was actually the smartest kidin my grade.
I was the ducks of my classevery year because I was
actually the only kid in mygrade for my entire elementary,
and so when I got into adulthoodI was aware that I probably
missed a few lessons.
(24:45):
We had one teacher for anentire school and I was always
very present to the fact that Ididn't even I never learned what
a conjunctive verb was.
There's so many things I didn'tlearn about the English
language and I honestly stilldon't know.
And so I remember wanting towrite a book but being so aware
of I don't know.
There's a lot of things I don'tknow.
(25:06):
I was passionate about what Ido, but I'm not.
I never studied writing orliterature.
But I remember talking to myhusband and going I'm afraid I'm
going to write a terrible book,I'm afraid that I'm not going
to be skilled enough as a writer, I'm afraid that I don't have
what it takes, I'm afraid I needto know more.
And he said you know, honey,why don't you just give yourself
(25:27):
permission to write the bestbook you can?
And when you have all theanswers to all the problems of
the world and you are theworld's best writer, you can
write another book.
Then.
And it gave me that shift inmindset, kind of like I gave
myself permission to fail atwriting the world's most
brilliant book, but just towrite the best book I can.
(25:48):
And so I stepped in and wrotethat first book.
And was it the world's best book?
No, but was it the world'sworst book?
I don't think it was probablythe world's worst book either.
I'm pretty sure it was probablysomewhere in the middle of all
the books of the world.
But so many times I remember thesame having a fourth child
going oh, do I have what ittakes to have a fourth child and
(26:10):
also pursue a career?
And I just had to give myselfpermission to figure it out as
I'd go along.
And were there many days Ifailed to be a perfect mother?
A thousand days I failed to bea perfect mother.
In fact, I don't know therewere as many days I would have
succeeded in being a perfectmother.
But I think when you giveyourself permission not to do
something brilliantly, not to bean Einstein before you start
(26:32):
out, not to be wholly masterfulat whatever it is, to give
yourself space to fail at times,not in drastic, catastrophic
ways, but just to fail andhaving the perfect outcome and
in perfect execution, itactually liberates you to try
all sorts of things youotherwise wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
That is really motivating.
And it really is extramotivating because we've heard
you talk about these extremelypainful experiences.
You know, because this is wherewe know that we're in the
presence of someone who hasexperienced many pivots and you
know, for us, the definition ofpivot on this show is that what
(27:14):
you were describing as when theplot thickens, when there's a
plot twist, and I noticed thatin all of the invitation.
You know that, invitations thatyou've initiated here when you
say, for example, you know, giveyourself permission and then so
on.
Or you know, consider writing adifferent story in your mind.
Consider, you know that thiscould be viewed from a different
(27:37):
lens In my experience, and Iwonder if you agree as we start
to.
You know that this could beviewed from a different lens In
my experience and I wonder ifyou agree as we start to.
You know, conclude ourconversation.
That is what takes a lot ofcourage.
We have really really goodreasons why these programs of
different ways of operating arein and so firmly holding on, and
it does take a really braveheart to give ourselves that
(28:02):
permission.
So, as you consider thesedifficult experiences you've
lived through and how they'veserved you, you've talked about
that so beautifully here.
Can you help us tie it alltogether?
The question that we ask thatis essentially the same for all
the guests guests, and you havebeen in this conversation with
us.
The entire episode is how wereall these pivots and how is a
(28:24):
pivot, how is, when the plotthickens, a step forward?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
yeah, I mean.
The fact is was einstein thatonce said you know, the biggest
decision we ever make is if welive in a friendly or hostile
universe.
And I think it was Rumi whosaid you know, live every day as
though life is rigged in yourfavor and when you're in the
middle of a situation that youwould not have chosen, it's easy
(28:49):
to feel like what the hell?
It feels like life is workingagainst me and, let's face it,
life often has circumstancesthat can feel unfair and
unwanted and you didn't plan for.
But even if you chose to make achange, even if you chose to
leave a job, leave arelationship, move across the
country and do some form ofpivot, it's still not easy.
(29:12):
I mean it's still difficultbecause it's new and it's
unfamiliar and you're having tofigure things out in ways you
hadn't have to figure out.
So either way, whether it'schange imposed or change chosen,
it's still uncomfortable attimes, it's still
(29:34):
psychologically unnerving andunsettling.
But I know for me and I've hada lot of situations where you
know some I've chosen,absolutely, I've chosen to
pursue something that's beenmake a pivot, and other times
I've just been forced to.
But it comes down to that, tothat to that still is.
Choice is to choose whereveryou are, to say yes to life.
I sometimes talk about take theroad less traveled.
(29:55):
Well, sometimes you just findyourself on the road, less
traveled, whether you wanted itor not.
Just say yes to it and askyourself what is the mindset I
need to bring to this thatenables me to experience this
with a little more peace and alittle less angst, and then
(30:16):
emerge out of it as a betterhuman, coming out the other side
?
Because if you want life to goa certain way, to line up
exactly with your plans, you'regoing to spend your entire life
stressed out, but instead go.
You know what life's happeningfor me?
It's not happening to me andI'm going to say yes to this and
I'm going to just continuallylean in, even when I don't know
(30:37):
what good can come of this.
And you know, in my previousbook You've Got this I talked
about walking the path of faithover fear, and I have a lot of
faith that all of us are here tolive a purpose that's uniquely
our own and that actually it'sthe situations often that we
wouldn't have chosen, thebiggest challenges we have, that
(30:58):
enable us to live our purposein deeper ways, in more
meaningful ways, and so maybe,even in the midst of a situation
that you thought was ruiningyour path, it's actually
revealing your path, it'sactually helping you live your
purpose in ways you couldn'thave had everything just gone
your way.
And so I think, at the end ofthe day, we always get to choose
(31:19):
how we respond to circumstances, even though we might not
always feel we get a choice inthose circumstances.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Well, thank you so much.
I mean that just summed it upbeautifully.
So we really, really appreciateyou being here today.
Thank you, dr Margie Worrell,her new book, the Courage Gap.
I would really encourage you toread it because I got a lot of
tidbits from it and we know thatyou are very busy.
So we truly appreciate youtaking time out of your day to
(31:50):
talk with us, to talk with ourlisteners.
You know, we really thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Well, thank you for having me, teresa and Ivana,
it's been lovely to speak withyou too, and Thank you.
Well, thank you for having me,teresa and Ivana.
It's been lovely to speak withyou too, and I'm delighted that
I've got to speak and speak intothe hearts and the minds of the
people who listen to yourpodcast.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Awesome, amazing.
So thank you everybody.
Thank you, Ivana, thank you, wewill talk to you all in two
weeks, to all of our listeners,and remember if you have a pivot
step into it.
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