April 25, 2025 • 31 mins
What would happen if you woke up tomorrow fundamentally believing in your worthiness, regardless of your accomplishments? This question lies at the heart of our conversation with transformational leadership coach Toya Gavin, whose journey from burnt-out prosecutor to authentic coach reveals profound lessons about reclaiming our true selves.
Toya shares the vulnerable moment when she publicly admitted her burnout and depression to thousands of fellow attorneys, expecting little response. Instead, she received an outpour from others suffering silently with similar struggles. This act of courage not only launched her coaching practice but demonstrated the transformative power of vulnerability.
At the core of Toya's philosophy is "Woke Up Worthy", the revolutionary idea that our worth isn't tied to achievements or others' approval. This perspective offers liberation especially for women and people of color who often feel they must be perfect and never falter. As Toya explains, "We're expected to be these perfect things where nothing goes wrong and we never make mistakes...but for women and people of color, we don't get the room to try and see what we can create."
Guest Bio:
Toya Gavin is an attorney, coach, and founder of Woke Up Worthy. At Woke Up Worthy, Toya helps women of color stop chasing degrees so they can start going after the life they want.
Toya is an ICF-certified coach and holds a Juris Doctorate from the George Washington University Law School and a Bachelor of Science in Industrial Engineering from Rutgers University. She also is licensed to practice law in New York and New Jersey. Toya's work as a coach is informed by numerous teachers, authors, artists, and practitioners, both personal and professional, including her sisters, aunts, husband, and mother.
Connect with Toya:
Website, LinkedIn, Instagram, Substack
Connect with Theresa and Ivana:
Theresa, True Strategy Consultants: tsc-consultants.com
LinkedIn @treeconti, Insta @tscconsultants
Ivana, Courageous Being: courageousbeing.com
LinkedIn @ivipol, Insta @courbeing
SITP team, Step Into The Pivot: stepintothepivot.com
LinkedIn @step-into-the-pivot, YouTube @StepIntoThePivot
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot.
We're so happy to have you here, and I am joined, of course, by
my wonderful co-host, ivana,and today's guest.
We have Toya Gavin.
So, toya, thank you so much forbeing here with us today.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Thank you for having me.
It's wonderful to be with bothof you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yes, thank you.
So I'm just going to do a verybrief intro, but I wanted to
pull a few of the things offyour website that I really love
that you say there You're atransformational leadership
coach, which is amazing.
So many women need that.
But a couple things you wroteare empowering women of color to
reclaim the deepest desires oftheir heart.
(00:43):
I mean that just really speaksto me and how that's such an
important thing and how youreally want women to experience
themselves as whole, worthy,beautiful, human and free.
I that just that just totallyspoke to me when I when I looked
at your website.
So I appreciate saying allthings at those things, and I'm
(01:04):
really looking forward totoday's conversation.
Oh, thank you so much.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Thank you, Even.
That's all yours.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Oh, toya, so great to be here with you.
Yes, so great.
Yes, it's great to be with youtoo.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So, on that note, I want to start by reminding you
and myself and sharing with ourlisteners and our audience, and
with Teresa, because she hasn'theard these.
I want to highlight two orthree anecdotes.
I'm going to go through themreally fast.
That for me, give thisbeautiful snapshot of Toya and
(01:42):
her soul, her spirit, herpresence.
Okay, so snapshot number one isone of the first things I hear
about you.
So it's the pandemic era andwe're all in lockdown mode and
you appear on my radar becauseour husbands are best friends
(02:04):
and I hear of this wonderfulwoman who is now in my friend's
life and the first thing I hearabout you is that you're taking
really, really great care ofyour physical body during the
pandemic.
There's the Peloton bike and Ijust hear about some of these
like healthy habits.
So that's one like anecdote.
Then we organized a double datethe four of us, and here we are
(02:30):
on Zoom, the two of us sittinghere in Portland, you're in
Washington DC and just presence.
So you were sitting and we'relooking at each other and it's
so easy and it really was likefirst time meeting you but it
really was like we had done thisbefore.
Easy, easy exchange of you knowsimple sentences, simple like
(02:54):
how are you, who are you?
It was so easy, so flowy.
Then fast forward a few years.
Now we're physically meetingfor the first time.
I arrived to your house, you'rehosting us, and there is
there's a moment where we're inyour place and you haven't
arrived yet and I come into theguest bedroom where you've, you
(03:15):
know, set things up for us andthere are two or three these
like beautiful moments of careand connection.
You left us a handwrittenwelcome card and there's a
candle and there's a littlewelcome and it's so real and
heart opening and I just likefeel so loved.
And you're not even in the room.
(03:36):
And then the last one is nowwe're hanging out the next
morning.
This is the first time you andI are actually physically
together and you show uppregnant.
Now we're hanging out the nextmorning this is the first time
you and I are actuallyphysically together and you show
up pregnant in this guest roomthat you had set up for us so
beautifully, with a cup ofcoffee that you made me and you
made one for yourself, and thenyou sit down next to me on the
(03:58):
bed and we're like shoulder toshoulder and we're watching our
guys, uh, clean out a hot tuband uh, there is this moment of
like, just us with these coffeesand the you know baby who's
arriving, and again easy, andyou start talking and teaching
this piece about you know womenand leadership and conscious
(04:22):
leadership, like in your jammieswith the coffee and you know
watching the guys work.
And there you were.
You know, so inspirational andso motivational and it was just
amazing.
So tell us from your perspectiveabout this whole journey that I
just kind of like highlighted.
(04:42):
Who are you?
What is going on here with allthese skills and abilities you
have in order to be with peoplewith so much comfort?
Tell us your story.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Thank you, even though it makes me sound, I mean
, I'm impressed by those stories.
So, anyway, just but, um, soour husbands are best friends.
They've known each other a longtime.
I actually met my husband whenI first we did the Zoom coffee
date.
Ali and I were dating at thetime, so I newly entered Ali's
(05:15):
life, my husband's life, and Ithink, with the Peloton and with
trying to take care of my body,trying to take care of my mind
and my spirit.
All of that really happenedduring my transition into
coaching.
So I'm still licensed, I'm alicensed attorney, I was a
(05:35):
prosecutor for a long time,worked in law firms, et cetera,
and those careers, even thoughthey were fruitful for me, there
was a lot packed in thoseemotionally and when I left,
what it brought up for me wasburnout.
What it brought up for me wasdepression.
What it brought up for me wasall of these things and I had a
(05:58):
moment to decide whether I wasgoing to quote, unquote, push
through right and just pretendthose things weren't there, or
whether I was going to confrontthem and see what was going on
and figure out how to take careof myself in the process.
And I chose the latter.
I'm happy now that I did at thetime I made I used to make a
(06:21):
lot of jokes.
I don't know if we're allowed tocurse, but I can tell you guys
the curse later.
I love it.
No, because what I always sayor said to my sisters was, like
you know, personal developmentit's wonderful, but it's a pain
in the ass, and so I'm in thepain in the ass part, and so
(06:43):
it's.
It's because you can't run awayfrom yourself, right, and there
are ways to run away fromyourself that seem very
productive and lucrative, and soin the outside world, to
everyone else, it's like she'sdoing great, but meanwhile, with
who you are and how you'rerelating to yourself, you're not
okay.
(07:04):
And so there's ways to hide inthat that are painful, but not
as much as a pain in an ass isconfronting yourself and really
being your true self.
And so the physical health, thephysical health, the uh,
greeting my husband's friendswho were so integral to his life
(07:24):
, who you know I felt cominginto it's like, oh my god, look
at all these great people aroundhim, and wanting to meet them
and thank them for theircontribution to making him who
he is too.
So there was that.
And then I remember when wewere having the coffee and
chatting, it was easy.
(07:46):
It was like funny to watch ourtwo husbands whatever they were
it was they were cleaning a hottub, but there was a lot of.
It was a lot.
Boys get up to a lot ofnonsense at any age and we were
both watching like any age andwe were both watching like, okay
(08:07):
, I'm not sure how this is goingto turn out, we'll just watch
and see.
And that was fun.
And then I think the discussionsaround conscious leadership and
going back to what Teresamentioned, wanting women to be
their whole beautiful humanselves, I think often in careers
(08:27):
and in leadership circles forwomen of color and women in
general, we feel like we have towalk a tight line and we don't
get to make a mistake right, wedon't get to falter, we don't
get to be confused and thatdoesn't feel free, because when
you want to try something new,when you want to enter a new
(08:49):
space, part of doing the newthing is making mistakes.
And we allow that for childrenand, of course, we allow that
for men in general.
They can just, yes, we'll lethim be the CEO of this company
or the president of this countryand have any experience.
We're fine with that Right.
(09:11):
But for women and people ofcolor, we don't get that.
We don't get the room to tryand see what we can create and
see how we can progress and seewhat we can create and see how
we can progress.
And so when I'm coaching thewomen in my circle and when I
think about what I wish for them, I want them to be free.
I want them to be free, wholeand to love themselves and to be
okay with being human.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
We're expected to do this always great.
And you know I've been veryoutspoken about my burnout,
right, I totally was Same sortof thing, toya, that I was
completely burnt out, that Ineeded to change that for myself
, but I didn't know how or Ididn't know you know how to make
that work, or was that notgoing to be the same?
(09:54):
And it's and it is, but youhave to free yourself from that.
You have to, you have to makethat not be scary.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I mean, it is scary, right, You're not?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
it's, it's not going to go without that.
But but you have to have thecourage and the bravery a lot of
times to do that, and I I lovethat you have that conversation,
because we do have to freeourselves Sometimes.
We have to give ourselves Iwould say, sometimes give
ourselves the grace right Tofail or try something new, or
try something different orwhatever that looks like right
(10:28):
To make it work.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Back to the coaching.
You know conversation andfacilitating conversation and
holding space.
It is necessary to havesomebody else do that for you.
Oftentimes the initiate they'reit's you know, it's okay that
you feel this way.
Let's go deeper.
What's really causing this?
You know tension in you rightnow, so talk a little bit about
(10:52):
that whole.
You know space, maybe that youoffer now and that it's.
You know how related it is tobeing basically a response to
what you were looking for whenyou were feeling you know,
stressed and yes.
Intense.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know, we're socialbeings for a reason, right?
Sometimes my husband will saysomething about how I'm reacting
or moving in a particularmoment, and I wouldn't even
realize that that was going onfor me.
And I think when people saythat we're social beings, it's
(11:30):
like, yes, you can't really seeyourself without the social
aspect.
We need each other, and socoaching is a part of that need.
Right, a lot of people don'thave the space, even within
their own family, to show up andhave someone reflect back what
they're seeing and also to be astand for them, creating the
(11:54):
life they want, and coachingoffers that.
And how that plays into myjourney is that when I left
being a prosecutor, I had my ownsolo practice for a while and I
had a business coach who youknow, was trained in other ways.
But my reason for getting thecoaching was business related.
(12:15):
It was very like productivityhow do I get more clients and
that actually changed my wholeview of myself.
And so as I was going throughthat process of like discovering
that I was burnt out anddiscovering that all those
things were happening to me, Ithought, oh, ok, well, maybe
eventually I'll be a coach,because I knew there were a lot
(12:45):
of lawyers in particular that Iknew that were going through the
same experiences and didn'thave the space to share them.
So when I decided to take abreak and really address what
was going on with me, that'swhen I got my coaching
certification and how it's sointeresting I got my first
clients.
I was writing for a platformthat is for solo legal
practitioners and I kind ofwrote just out of like fear.
(13:07):
I don't even know what, Ishouldn't even say fear.
I don't know what prompted meto be so vulnerable.
But in the post to thesethousands of lawyers, I was like
huh, I'm a black woman, I'mburnt out.
I think I'm depressed.
I'm going to take a sabbaticalto figure these things out, and
I've been working since I was 14.
So I don't even know if you getto do this and so I probably
(13:30):
won't work again.
Guys, I don't know what's goingto happen to me, but I'm going
to try this thing.
I'm going to actually take thisjourney and figure out what's
going on with me instead of justpushing through and working.
And if this inspires you to dosomething different or you want
to take this journey with me,kind of let's go.
(13:50):
And I and I wrote that notexpecting like a big reaction I
had been writing posts for themfor a while and you get a couple
comments, but attorneys fromlike all over the country
started emailing me.
They started emailing me aboutwhat they were going through,
about feeling burnt out, abouthow, like, how do you transition
(14:12):
, what do you do?
How do we figure this out?
How do we figure this out?
And I, during that process ofjust communicating with folks, I
told them like OK, I'm going tostart this coach training.
I don't really know what I'mdoing yet, but I'm willing to
like, learn and help you ifyou're willing to go on this
journey with me.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And some of them were , and that's how it started.
Sometimes we have to, we haveto write that down, we have to
put it out there for it, I don'tknow.
We have to put it out there forit to, I don't know.
Sometimes I have to put stuffout there for it to seem real,
or, oh my gosh, this is reallywhat is happening.
Like I had to kind of writethat down or put it out there.
And you know, the otherinteresting thing, as you were
talking about that is, it'stotally true, like that support
(14:54):
you got.
It made other people think tooand gave them a little
vulnerability.
You know, hey, if she can beout there saying this, maybe it
is okay that I say this too.
Right, I think that it it.
I think it helped you in a lotof ways and it helped them,
right, right, and that's whatyou really said to me is that
(15:14):
you know both things happened.
But sometimes we have to bevulnerable and that's really
hard because we're expected tobe these perfect things that
nothing ever goes wrong and wenever make a mistake.
And you know, are people gonnathink I'm just, you know, dumb,
(15:34):
or?
Or you know being too, you know, crazy, or you know those kinds
of things and and it kind ofgives us that.
But I love that you talkedabout that because I think it's
it.
It makes it better when youhave somebody that you can tell
that to.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Yeah, I think we all want someone, that or some place
where we can be vulnerable andfeel like we're not going to be
judged, absolutely Right, yeah,and I don't think we get that
often enough.
And then the publicvulnerability is scary, but also
so community buildingAbsolutely.
(16:13):
I think every time I've beenpublicly vulnerable and I see
this too, too, with if we'refollowing certain content
creators or what you're doingyou'll notice that the
breakthrough from them when theywent to something else, from
Tabitha Brown to whoever, it'sthe time that they were like
publicly vulnerable and justsaid like this is what's going
on for me for real, and itchanged everything and it
(16:35):
changed everything, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Some of the women I work with sorry that you know as
mentors and coaches I say it.
I'm like guys, this happened tome, like it's not any different
.
They're like, wait, thathappened to you, Like I think
sometimes we think we're on thislike little island and it's
just us, right?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Yeah, I think we've talked about this on some of our
previous episodes.
Teresa and I embody thatcompletely, even in our
relationship, because we werereally friendly and there was a
lot of simpatico and there wasjust warmth between us.
The relationship really went toa whole different level,
whether you call it friendshipor just closeness and this sort
(17:15):
of like activism.
What can we do about some ofthe stuff that we don't like?
Let's do a podcast together.
It happened when we both startedsaying really what's behind the
how are you doing?
Not so great?
Yeah, you know, when we gotreally real now, as we were
getting ready to get started, wetalked about the word
(17:36):
authenticity, which we also usea lot on the podcast, and a lot
of what I was really drawn to interms of getting to know you
better when we were firstgetting started was your
authentic presence.
You mentioned that you may havean example of a recent
experience where you were notvulnerable.
(17:59):
It sounds like, ergo authentic.
Do you mind teaching throughthat example of where you maybe
chose not to step into the pivotof the moment and you, uh, yes,
that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yes, so you know when I and I'm gonna put this
through sort of an oppressivelens only because I coach around
, that I talk about that, and Icoach women and women of color,
so we're all facing differentversions of an oppressive system
.
Work, right, you're stillswimming in the soup Like it's
(18:39):
the water that we're in, it'sthe air that we breathe, and so
there is a maintenance that youhave to do that you don't even
realize.
When you've been coaching for awhile, you're like, oh, it's,
I'm got this.
And then you get thrown into asituation and you're like, oh
wait, where am I?
I had to find myself.
So recently I started apartnership with Volta Talent
Strategies and they do coachingand consulting in law firms with
(19:01):
associates and all that, and soI had the opportunity to go
back and coach.
I'm coaching lawyers again and,without even meaning to, I went
right back into I called it likethe law firm culture instead of
the coaching culture that I hadestablished.
So I immediately started goingback into oh well, I need to
(19:24):
work through lunch because Ihave to make sure I get all
these things out, or you know,oh well, I put my daughter down
and, even though I'm tired.
I need to go back to work.
I do breath work and beforeevery session, when I start the
session with my clients, we dosome form a small breathing
exercise to set the tone for thesession.
(19:45):
And I was like I don't know iflawyers are going to be into
that, so I'm not going to dothat.
And I didn't even ask themright, I didn't even ask for
permission.
But all of those small littlethings I started overworking,
not giving myself time betweensessions.
I'm very much a set anintention before the session.
(20:05):
I wasn't doing any of that.
I was going right back into theconditioning of being a lawyer,
like let's get, we got to getthe work done, move, move, move.
And I had to.
I realized it after a few weeksand I was like what am I doing?
I am the Russian doll example Igave earlier, which is like I
(20:26):
am the center of the Russiandolls and I've done a lot of
work to take off the variousdolls that fit on top and some
kind of way I had put a dollback on, like I put a shell back
on.
That I didn't intend to, and soI wasn't showing up for my
clients the way I normally do.
And I recognized it and pivotedto that.
(20:48):
And it matters as a coach,because when you're in the
session, as you know, it's allabout what's being said but also
what's not being said.
It's all about what's beingsaid but also what's not being
said.
And I found myself questioningshould I say this in the moment
and not saying it, not honoringwhat was happening in the moment
, because I had put that shellback on.
(21:10):
And so I say to everyone ithappens to us all, but the goal
is to, for me and for my clientsas well, is to show up as
myself in every space, in everyway, all the time.
And it doesn't always happenbecause of all the layers of
things that we are confrontedwith.
But once I realized it, I wasable to make some changes.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well, and I always say when I'm talking with women,
part of it's recognizing itright Again, we're not perfect
Part of it's the way we've beentrained to do and I don't really
like the word trained, but youknow the way we've always done
things and I really do love thatRussian doll.
You know conversation, I canvividly see it.
(21:54):
I can vividly see that likeshell on you and you know and,
and we all have that, but I saythat to people all the time as
I'm talking with them.
You know that reallyrecognizing it is definitely one
of the bigger things.
If you recognize, you know thatI have one, one person I work
(22:15):
with and she's definitely ablurter.
She's very passionate and she'svery you know, always very
excited about stuff and she'lljust blurt things out and I'm
like you need to take this stepback and breath Like people
don't view that always in a goodway, like not that there's
anything wrong with it, becauseyou are very passionate and I
know that about you.
But it's that, you know,thought process about it, right,
(22:38):
but she's like I did exactlywhat you told me not to do and I
was like but you recognized itand now we can work on it.
Right, it's, it's not again.
We're not perfect.
We're always growing andexpanding and learning, and
that's what we want to be.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
So yeah, for sure it's I so yeah, for sure.
I would say awareness is 90% ofit.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Absolutely.
I agree with that yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Yep, I mean, everyone who watches this podcast on
YouTube knows that, like in justabout every episode, I have
some mug going on and primarilythere's coffee in here.
Occasionally tea if we'rerecording later in the day, but
there's coffee here.
And maybe you know why Ibrought up the coffee you know
example in the beginning isbecause a lot of this has to do
(23:23):
with waking up and you call youknow, one of your key taglines
is woke up worthy.
When you talk about this momentwhere you're like you go back
into that corporate settingwhere the culture is so thick
and so dense with certain rules,prescriptions, where the
culture is so thick and so densewith certain rules,
prescriptions, and this is howyou be, you know, it is going to
be very easy to be like, ohokay, all the dolls back on,
(23:44):
back on, until you kind of likewake yourself up.
Wait, wait, what am I doing?
And I find that that's that'sreally the revolutionary moment,
that not the fact that you kindof like fell asleep again to
those old ways of you knowcondition, like Teresa was
saying, you know the trainedcondition, ways of showing up
it's the fact that you woke upBecause underneath the you know
(24:06):
I think I need to do it likethis.
It do you feel like it hassomething to do with the sense
of worthiness and, you know,belonging?
And if I, you know, maybe somefear kicks in that if I don't do
it the other way, they're notgoing to invite me back, I'm not
going to be able to continueinteracting here, engaging.
Tell us basically about Woke UpWorthy, maybe using this
(24:27):
example.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, no, I understand.
So, yeah, there are a lot ofthings there.
One, yes, the bottom line thingfor me, and how there's a thing
that you have throughout yourlife, whatever the thing that's
like holding you back or, andit's always an issue that pops
up For me my, a lot of myself-concept and how I value
(24:49):
myself and how I think about myworth is tied to my performance,
performance, right.
And so, just like you mentioned, when I'm in those situations
going back into the law firm andI am going back into a
performance I performed well,right, there was outside
(25:10):
recognition of the work that Iwas doing, and so I can easily
transition back into that right,fall asleep, as you say, and
that can start to almostmanipulate me in a way, because
it feels good, right, I'mgetting praise for this behavior
, right, but that's not meliving into believing I'm worthy
(25:37):
outside of my performance.
My worth has to come from abelief that I am inherently
worthy.
If I never perform again, if Inever do whatever again and I
never, you know, if I don'timpress this partner and he
thinks you know what she was, aboob or whatever he thinks he,
(25:57):
she, whoever, whatever theythink, there has to be an
inherent belief in my worthiness.
And so in the falling asleeppart is I can lean back into the
performance very easily and youhave a problem when you're
hanging your whole self-concept,the whole belief on who you are
, on a performance, because itdepends on the evaluation from
someone else and those can thosego up and down with the wind.
(26:26):
So there's that part of it.
I love that you had thatinterpretation of woke up worthy
, because that's aninterpretation I hadn't thought
of when I did.
There's two parts.
When I thought of wokeoke UpWorthy, I was thinking I want
people to wake up in the morningand just feel worthy just by
waking up.
And also there's a Beyonce songwhere she says I woke up like
this and that was like keptcoming up in my head and I was
(26:49):
like, yes, I woke up like this,I'm worthy Beyonce.
So those were the two thoughtsthat I had in naming the
business.
But I love the idea in the wayyou said like you can fall
asleep, back into those old waysof being and have to wake
yourself up into who you reallyare.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, exactly yeah Same same so.
Same same yeah, same same sosame same you know, like I got
to wake up at 5 pm.
If I'm starting to, you know,wake up worthy at 5 pm if I'm
starting to fall asleep andthinking that you know I got to
push through and you knowforpertize this business that I
(27:29):
started for, you know, out ofcompletely different reasons.
So yes thank you Teresa, helpus wrap this up, because this is
never going to end, becausethis is like but this is a great
conversation.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
This spoke to me, I and I I think it'll really speak
to our listeners.
So you know, I hope you heardwhat Toya had to say today.
So, Toya, we always ask ourguests a final question, right?
How is this event, how, how wasthis a pivot?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
this pivot, a step forward for you, Gosh the pivot
into coaching and really it'sthe pivot into myself.
It's a, it's a pivot back tomyself, like when we, you know,
we come back and we're bornourselves as ourselves when
we're born, and then we learnall these things.
And then there's a moment whereyou pivot back to yourself and
(28:23):
my wish for everyone youinteract with, for all your
listeners, is, if they haven'tmade that pivot back to
themselves, that they start downthat journey, because that's
where you'll find the mosthappiness and that's where
you'll be free Start down thatjourney, because that's where
you'll find the most happinessand that's
Speaker 1 (28:41):
where you'll be free.
A perfect summary.
I mean, all right, we can bedone.
That was an amazing wrap up.
Thank you, totally true.
Yeah, yeah, it was perfect.
Thank you, it's great.
I think you're totally right.
You're totally right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
This was a great conversation.
Thank you, guys, so much forhaving me.
My mind is like always wheneven I talk, there's always like
, pinging, like, and then we'regoing to do this and then you
should do this.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Now, my mind is like you get reinvigorated, sometimes
talking with others and youknow.
So that's an encouragement toour listeners.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Talk with others.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
If you're struggling with something, talk, share.
You know you never know whatyou're going to get from those
conversations, and I know evenand I really hope that people
get that from from ourconversations with amazing
guests like Toya.
So thank you, toya, for beinghere.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me and forsharing with me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Thank you so much, Toya, and you know, in our show
notes and associated with thisepisode, we're going to let
people know how they can get intouch with you.
I know you do a lot of you knowfree giving.
Also, You're out there withyour messages.
You do some beautiful writing,so we definitely encourage our
listeners to be with you thatway and continue to learn about
you and your and your teachings.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Thank you so much.
Yes, please follow me on all.
Well, I'm on Instagram, I'm onSubstack.
It's really you really want tofollow me.
That's why I'm on Substack.
All right, awesome.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
All right.
Thank you everybody forlistening today.
We really appreciate it andremember if you have a pivot
step into it.
Hello everybody, welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot.
We're so happy to have you here, and I am joined, of course, by
my wonderful co-host, ivana,and today's guest.
We have Toya Gavin.
So, toya, thank you so much forbeing here with us today.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Thank you for having me.
It's wonderful to be with bothof you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yes, thank you.
So I'm just going to do a verybrief intro, but I wanted to
pull a few of the things offyour website that I really love
that you say there You're atransformational leadership
coach, which is amazing.
So many women need that.
But a couple things you wroteare empowering women of color to
reclaim the deepest desires oftheir heart.
(00:43):
I mean that just really speaksto me and how that's such an
important thing and how youreally want women to experience
themselves as whole, worthy,beautiful, human and free.
I that just that just totallyspoke to me when I when I looked
at your website.
So I appreciate saying allthings at those things, and I'm
(01:04):
really looking forward totoday's conversation.
Oh, thank you so much.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Thank you, Even.
That's all yours.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Oh, toya, so great to be here with you.
Yes, so great.
Yes, it's great to be with youtoo.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So, on that note, I want to start by reminding you
and myself and sharing with ourlisteners and our audience, and
with Teresa, because she hasn'theard these.
I want to highlight two orthree anecdotes.
I'm going to go through themreally fast.
That for me, give thisbeautiful snapshot of Toya and
(01:42):
her soul, her spirit, herpresence.
Okay, so snapshot number one isone of the first things I hear
about you.
So it's the pandemic era andwe're all in lockdown mode and
you appear on my radar becauseour husbands are best friends
(02:04):
and I hear of this wonderfulwoman who is now in my friend's
life and the first thing I hearabout you is that you're taking
really, really great care ofyour physical body during the
pandemic.
There's the Peloton bike and Ijust hear about some of these
like healthy habits.
So that's one like anecdote.
Then we organized a double datethe four of us, and here we are
(02:30):
on Zoom, the two of us sittinghere in Portland, you're in
Washington DC and just presence.
So you were sitting and we'relooking at each other and it's
so easy and it really was likefirst time meeting you but it
really was like we had done thisbefore.
Easy, easy exchange of you knowsimple sentences, simple like
(02:54):
how are you, who are you?
It was so easy, so flowy.
Then fast forward a few years.
Now we're physically meetingfor the first time.
I arrived to your house, you'rehosting us, and there is
there's a moment where we're inyour place and you haven't
arrived yet and I come into theguest bedroom where you've, you
(03:15):
know, set things up for us andthere are two or three these
like beautiful moments of careand connection.
You left us a handwrittenwelcome card and there's a
candle and there's a littlewelcome and it's so real and
heart opening and I just likefeel so loved.
And you're not even in the room.
(03:36):
And then the last one is nowwe're hanging out the next
morning.
This is the first time you andI are actually physically
together and you show uppregnant.
Now we're hanging out the nextmorning this is the first time
you and I are actuallyphysically together and you show
up pregnant in this guest roomthat you had set up for us so
beautifully, with a cup ofcoffee that you made me and you
made one for yourself, and thenyou sit down next to me on the
(03:58):
bed and we're like shoulder toshoulder and we're watching our
guys, uh, clean out a hot tuband uh, there is this moment of
like, just us with these coffeesand the you know baby who's
arriving, and again easy, andyou start talking and teaching
this piece about you know womenand leadership and conscious
(04:22):
leadership, like in your jammieswith the coffee and you know
watching the guys work.
And there you were.
You know, so inspirational andso motivational and it was just
amazing.
So tell us from your perspectiveabout this whole journey that I
just kind of like highlighted.
(04:42):
Who are you?
What is going on here with allthese skills and abilities you
have in order to be with peoplewith so much comfort?
Tell us your story.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Thank you, even though it makes me sound, I mean
, I'm impressed by those stories.
So, anyway, just but, um, soour husbands are best friends.
They've known each other a longtime.
I actually met my husband whenI first we did the Zoom coffee
date.
Ali and I were dating at thetime, so I newly entered Ali's
(05:15):
life, my husband's life, and Ithink, with the Peloton and with
trying to take care of my body,trying to take care of my mind
and my spirit.
All of that really happenedduring my transition into
coaching.
So I'm still licensed, I'm alicensed attorney, I was a
(05:35):
prosecutor for a long time,worked in law firms, et cetera,
and those careers, even thoughthey were fruitful for me, there
was a lot packed in thoseemotionally and when I left,
what it brought up for me wasburnout.
What it brought up for me wasdepression.
What it brought up for me wasall of these things and I had a
(05:58):
moment to decide whether I wasgoing to quote, unquote, push
through right and just pretendthose things weren't there, or
whether I was going to confrontthem and see what was going on
and figure out how to take careof myself in the process.
And I chose the latter.
I'm happy now that I did at thetime I made I used to make a
(06:21):
lot of jokes.
I don't know if we're allowed tocurse, but I can tell you guys
the curse later.
I love it.
No, because what I always sayor said to my sisters was, like
you know, personal developmentit's wonderful, but it's a pain
in the ass, and so I'm in thepain in the ass part, and so
(06:43):
it's.
It's because you can't run awayfrom yourself, right, and there
are ways to run away fromyourself that seem very
productive and lucrative, and soin the outside world, to
everyone else, it's like she'sdoing great, but meanwhile, with
who you are and how you'rerelating to yourself, you're not
okay.
(07:04):
And so there's ways to hide inthat that are painful, but not
as much as a pain in an ass isconfronting yourself and really
being your true self.
And so the physical health, thephysical health, the uh,
greeting my husband's friendswho were so integral to his life
(07:24):
, who you know I felt cominginto it's like, oh my god, look
at all these great people aroundhim, and wanting to meet them
and thank them for theircontribution to making him who
he is too.
So there was that.
And then I remember when wewere having the coffee and
chatting, it was easy.
(07:46):
It was like funny to watch ourtwo husbands whatever they were
it was they were cleaning a hottub, but there was a lot of.
It was a lot.
Boys get up to a lot ofnonsense at any age and we were
both watching like any age andwe were both watching like, okay
(08:07):
, I'm not sure how this is goingto turn out, we'll just watch
and see.
And that was fun.
And then I think the discussionsaround conscious leadership and
going back to what Teresamentioned, wanting women to be
their whole beautiful humanselves, I think often in careers
(08:27):
and in leadership circles forwomen of color and women in
general, we feel like we have towalk a tight line and we don't
get to make a mistake right, wedon't get to falter, we don't
get to be confused and thatdoesn't feel free, because when
you want to try something new,when you want to enter a new
(08:49):
space, part of doing the newthing is making mistakes.
And we allow that for childrenand, of course, we allow that
for men in general.
They can just, yes, we'll lethim be the CEO of this company
or the president of this countryand have any experience.
We're fine with that Right.
(09:11):
But for women and people ofcolor, we don't get that.
We don't get the room to tryand see what we can create and
see how we can progress and seewhat we can create and see how
we can progress.
And so when I'm coaching thewomen in my circle and when I
think about what I wish for them, I want them to be free.
I want them to be free, wholeand to love themselves and to be
okay with being human.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
We're expected to do this always great.
And you know I've been veryoutspoken about my burnout,
right, I totally was Same sortof thing, toya, that I was
completely burnt out, that Ineeded to change that for myself
, but I didn't know how or Ididn't know you know how to make
that work, or was that notgoing to be the same?
(09:54):
And it's and it is, but youhave to free yourself from that.
You have to, you have to makethat not be scary.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I mean, it is scary, right, You're not?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
it's, it's not going to go without that.
But but you have to have thecourage and the bravery a lot of
times to do that, and I I lovethat you have that conversation,
because we do have to freeourselves Sometimes.
We have to give ourselves Iwould say, sometimes give
ourselves the grace right Tofail or try something new, or
try something different orwhatever that looks like right
(10:28):
To make it work.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Back to the coaching.
You know conversation andfacilitating conversation and
holding space.
It is necessary to havesomebody else do that for you.
Oftentimes the initiate they'reit's you know, it's okay that
you feel this way.
Let's go deeper.
What's really causing this?
You know tension in you rightnow, so talk a little bit about
(10:52):
that whole.
You know space, maybe that youoffer now and that it's.
You know how related it is tobeing basically a response to
what you were looking for whenyou were feeling you know,
stressed and yes.
Intense.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know, we're socialbeings for a reason, right?
Sometimes my husband will saysomething about how I'm reacting
or moving in a particularmoment, and I wouldn't even
realize that that was going onfor me.
And I think when people saythat we're social beings, it's
(11:30):
like, yes, you can't really seeyourself without the social
aspect.
We need each other, and socoaching is a part of that need.
Right, a lot of people don'thave the space, even within
their own family, to show up andhave someone reflect back what
they're seeing and also to be astand for them, creating the
(11:54):
life they want, and coachingoffers that.
And how that plays into myjourney is that when I left
being a prosecutor, I had my ownsolo practice for a while and I
had a business coach who youknow, was trained in other ways.
But my reason for getting thecoaching was business related.
(12:15):
It was very like productivityhow do I get more clients and
that actually changed my wholeview of myself.
And so as I was going throughthat process of like discovering
that I was burnt out anddiscovering that all those
things were happening to me, Ithought, oh, ok, well, maybe
eventually I'll be a coach,because I knew there were a lot
(12:45):
of lawyers in particular that Iknew that were going through the
same experiences and didn'thave the space to share them.
So when I decided to take abreak and really address what
was going on with me, that'swhen I got my coaching
certification and how it's sointeresting I got my first
clients.
I was writing for a platformthat is for solo legal
practitioners and I kind ofwrote just out of like fear.
(13:07):
I don't even know what, Ishouldn't even say fear.
I don't know what prompted meto be so vulnerable.
But in the post to thesethousands of lawyers, I was like
huh, I'm a black woman, I'mburnt out.
I think I'm depressed.
I'm going to take a sabbaticalto figure these things out, and
I've been working since I was 14.
So I don't even know if you getto do this and so I probably
(13:30):
won't work again.
Guys, I don't know what's goingto happen to me, but I'm going
to try this thing.
I'm going to actually take thisjourney and figure out what's
going on with me instead of justpushing through and working.
And if this inspires you to dosomething different or you want
to take this journey with me,kind of let's go.
(13:50):
And I and I wrote that notexpecting like a big reaction I
had been writing posts for themfor a while and you get a couple
comments, but attorneys fromlike all over the country
started emailing me.
They started emailing me aboutwhat they were going through,
about feeling burnt out, abouthow, like, how do you transition
(14:12):
, what do you do?
How do we figure this out?
How do we figure this out?
And I, during that process ofjust communicating with folks, I
told them like OK, I'm going tostart this coach training.
I don't really know what I'mdoing yet, but I'm willing to
like, learn and help you ifyou're willing to go on this
journey with me.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And some of them were , and that's how it started.
Sometimes we have to, we haveto write that down, we have to
put it out there for it, I don'tknow.
We have to put it out there forit to, I don't know.
Sometimes I have to put stuffout there for it to seem real,
or, oh my gosh, this is reallywhat is happening.
Like I had to kind of writethat down or put it out there.
And you know, the otherinteresting thing, as you were
talking about that is, it'stotally true, like that support
(14:54):
you got.
It made other people think tooand gave them a little
vulnerability.
You know, hey, if she can beout there saying this, maybe it
is okay that I say this too.
Right, I think that it it.
I think it helped you in a lotof ways and it helped them,
right, right, and that's whatyou really said to me is that
(15:14):
you know both things happened.
But sometimes we have to bevulnerable and that's really
hard because we're expected tobe these perfect things that
nothing ever goes wrong and wenever make a mistake.
And you know, are people gonnathink I'm just, you know, dumb,
(15:34):
or?
Or you know being too, you know, crazy, or you know those kinds
of things and and it kind ofgives us that.
But I love that you talkedabout that because I think it's
it.
It makes it better when youhave somebody that you can tell
that to.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Yeah, I think we all want someone, that or some place
where we can be vulnerable andfeel like we're not going to be
judged, absolutely Right, yeah,and I don't think we get that
often enough.
And then the publicvulnerability is scary, but also
so community buildingAbsolutely.
(16:13):
I think every time I've beenpublicly vulnerable and I see
this too, too, with if we'refollowing certain content
creators or what you're doingyou'll notice that the
breakthrough from them when theywent to something else, from
Tabitha Brown to whoever, it'sthe time that they were like
publicly vulnerable and justsaid like this is what's going
on for me for real, and itchanged everything and it
(16:35):
changed everything, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Some of the women I work with sorry that you know as
mentors and coaches I say it.
I'm like guys, this happened tome, like it's not any different
.
They're like, wait, thathappened to you, Like I think
sometimes we think we're on thislike little island and it's
just us, right?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Yeah, I think we've talked about this on some of our
previous episodes.
Teresa and I embody thatcompletely, even in our
relationship, because we werereally friendly and there was a
lot of simpatico and there wasjust warmth between us.
The relationship really went toa whole different level,
whether you call it friendshipor just closeness and this sort
(17:15):
of like activism.
What can we do about some ofthe stuff that we don't like?
Let's do a podcast together.
It happened when we both startedsaying really what's behind the
how are you doing?
Not so great?
Yeah, you know, when we gotreally real now, as we were
getting ready to get started, wetalked about the word
(17:36):
authenticity, which we also usea lot on the podcast, and a lot
of what I was really drawn to interms of getting to know you
better when we were firstgetting started was your
authentic presence.
You mentioned that you may havean example of a recent
experience where you were notvulnerable.
(17:59):
It sounds like, ergo authentic.
Do you mind teaching throughthat example of where you maybe
chose not to step into the pivotof the moment and you, uh, yes,
that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yes, so you know when I and I'm gonna put this
through sort of an oppressivelens only because I coach around
, that I talk about that, and Icoach women and women of color,
so we're all facing differentversions of an oppressive system
.
Work, right, you're stillswimming in the soup Like it's
(18:39):
the water that we're in, it'sthe air that we breathe, and so
there is a maintenance that youhave to do that you don't even
realize.
When you've been coaching for awhile, you're like, oh, it's,
I'm got this.
And then you get thrown into asituation and you're like, oh
wait, where am I?
I had to find myself.
So recently I started apartnership with Volta Talent
Strategies and they do coachingand consulting in law firms with
(19:01):
associates and all that, and soI had the opportunity to go
back and coach.
I'm coaching lawyers again and,without even meaning to, I went
right back into I called it likethe law firm culture instead of
the coaching culture that I hadestablished.
So I immediately started goingback into oh well, I need to
(19:24):
work through lunch because Ihave to make sure I get all
these things out, or you know,oh well, I put my daughter down
and, even though I'm tired.
I need to go back to work.
I do breath work and beforeevery session, when I start the
session with my clients, we dosome form a small breathing
exercise to set the tone for thesession.
(19:45):
And I was like I don't know iflawyers are going to be into
that, so I'm not going to dothat.
And I didn't even ask themright, I didn't even ask for
permission.
But all of those small littlethings I started overworking,
not giving myself time betweensessions.
I'm very much a set anintention before the session.
(20:05):
I wasn't doing any of that.
I was going right back into theconditioning of being a lawyer,
like let's get, we got to getthe work done, move, move, move.
And I had to.
I realized it after a few weeksand I was like what am I doing?
I am the Russian doll example Igave earlier, which is like I
(20:26):
am the center of the Russiandolls and I've done a lot of
work to take off the variousdolls that fit on top and some
kind of way I had put a dollback on, like I put a shell back
on.
That I didn't intend to, and soI wasn't showing up for my
clients the way I normally do.
And I recognized it and pivotedto that.
(20:48):
And it matters as a coach,because when you're in the
session, as you know, it's allabout what's being said but also
what's not being said.
It's all about what's beingsaid but also what's not being
said.
And I found myself questioningshould I say this in the moment
and not saying it, not honoringwhat was happening in the moment
, because I had put that shellback on.
(21:10):
And so I say to everyone ithappens to us all, but the goal
is to, for me and for my clientsas well, is to show up as
myself in every space, in everyway, all the time.
And it doesn't always happenbecause of all the layers of
things that we are confrontedwith.
But once I realized it, I wasable to make some changes.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well, and I always say when I'm talking with women,
part of it's recognizing itright Again, we're not perfect
Part of it's the way we've beentrained to do and I don't really
like the word trained, but youknow the way we've always done
things and I really do love thatRussian doll.
You know conversation, I canvividly see it.
(21:54):
I can vividly see that likeshell on you and you know and,
and we all have that, but I saythat to people all the time as
I'm talking with them.
You know that reallyrecognizing it is definitely one
of the bigger things.
If you recognize, you know thatI have one, one person I work
(22:15):
with and she's definitely ablurter.
She's very passionate and she'svery you know, always very
excited about stuff and she'lljust blurt things out and I'm
like you need to take this stepback and breath Like people
don't view that always in a goodway, like not that there's
anything wrong with it, becauseyou are very passionate and I
know that about you.
But it's that, you know,thought process about it, right,
(22:38):
but she's like I did exactlywhat you told me not to do and I
was like but you recognized itand now we can work on it.
Right, it's, it's not again.
We're not perfect.
We're always growing andexpanding and learning, and
that's what we want to be.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
So yeah, for sure it's I so yeah, for sure.
I would say awareness is 90% ofit.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Absolutely.
I agree with that yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Yep, I mean, everyone who watches this podcast on
YouTube knows that, like in justabout every episode, I have
some mug going on and primarilythere's coffee in here.
Occasionally tea if we'rerecording later in the day, but
there's coffee here.
And maybe you know why Ibrought up the coffee you know
example in the beginning isbecause a lot of this has to do
(23:23):
with waking up and you call youknow, one of your key taglines
is woke up worthy.
When you talk about this momentwhere you're like you go back
into that corporate settingwhere the culture is so thick
and so dense with certain rules,prescriptions, where the
culture is so thick and so densewith certain rules,
prescriptions, and this is howyou be, you know, it is going to
be very easy to be like, ohokay, all the dolls back on,
(23:44):
back on, until you kind of likewake yourself up.
Wait, wait, what am I doing?
And I find that that's that'sreally the revolutionary moment,
that not the fact that you kindof like fell asleep again to
those old ways of you knowcondition, like Teresa was
saying, you know the trainedcondition, ways of showing up
it's the fact that you woke upBecause underneath the you know
(24:06):
I think I need to do it likethis.
It do you feel like it hassomething to do with the sense
of worthiness and, you know,belonging?
And if I, you know, maybe somefear kicks in that if I don't do
it the other way, they're notgoing to invite me back, I'm not
going to be able to continueinteracting here, engaging.
Tell us basically about Woke UpWorthy, maybe using this
(24:27):
example.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, no, I understand.
So, yeah, there are a lot ofthings there.
One, yes, the bottom line thingfor me, and how there's a thing
that you have throughout yourlife, whatever the thing that's
like holding you back or, andit's always an issue that pops
up For me my, a lot of myself-concept and how I value
(24:49):
myself and how I think about myworth is tied to my performance,
performance, right.
And so, just like you mentioned, when I'm in those situations
going back into the law firm andI am going back into a
performance I performed well,right, there was outside
(25:10):
recognition of the work that Iwas doing, and so I can easily
transition back into that right,fall asleep, as you say, and
that can start to almostmanipulate me in a way, because
it feels good, right, I'mgetting praise for this behavior
, right, but that's not meliving into believing I'm worthy
(25:37):
outside of my performance.
My worth has to come from abelief that I am inherently
worthy.
If I never perform again, if Inever do whatever again and I
never, you know, if I don'timpress this partner and he
thinks you know what she was, aboob or whatever he thinks he,
(25:57):
she, whoever, whatever theythink, there has to be an
inherent belief in my worthiness.
And so in the falling asleeppart is I can lean back into the
performance very easily and youhave a problem when you're
hanging your whole self-concept,the whole belief on who you are
, on a performance, because itdepends on the evaluation from
someone else and those can thosego up and down with the wind.
(26:26):
So there's that part of it.
I love that you had thatinterpretation of woke up worthy
, because that's aninterpretation I hadn't thought
of when I did.
There's two parts.
When I thought of wokeoke UpWorthy, I was thinking I want
people to wake up in the morningand just feel worthy just by
waking up.
And also there's a Beyonce songwhere she says I woke up like
this and that was like keptcoming up in my head and I was
(26:49):
like, yes, I woke up like this,I'm worthy Beyonce.
So those were the two thoughtsthat I had in naming the
business.
But I love the idea in the wayyou said like you can fall
asleep, back into those old waysof being and have to wake
yourself up into who you reallyare.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, exactly yeah Same same so.
Same same yeah, same same sosame same you know, like I got
to wake up at 5 pm.
If I'm starting to, you know,wake up worthy at 5 pm if I'm
starting to fall asleep andthinking that you know I got to
push through and you knowforpertize this business that I
(27:29):
started for, you know, out ofcompletely different reasons.
So yes thank you Teresa, helpus wrap this up, because this is
never going to end, becausethis is like but this is a great
conversation.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
This spoke to me, I and I I think it'll really speak
to our listeners.
So you know, I hope you heardwhat Toya had to say today.
So, Toya, we always ask ourguests a final question, right?
How is this event, how, how wasthis a pivot?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
this pivot, a step forward for you, Gosh the pivot
into coaching and really it'sthe pivot into myself.
It's a, it's a pivot back tomyself, like when we, you know,
we come back and we're bornourselves as ourselves when
we're born, and then we learnall these things.
And then there's a moment whereyou pivot back to yourself and
(28:23):
my wish for everyone youinteract with, for all your
listeners, is, if they haven'tmade that pivot back to
themselves, that they start downthat journey, because that's
where you'll find the mosthappiness and that's where
you'll be free Start down thatjourney, because that's where
you'll find the most happinessand that's
Speaker 1 (28:41):
where you'll be free.
A perfect summary.
I mean, all right, we can bedone.
That was an amazing wrap up.
Thank you, totally true.
Yeah, yeah, it was perfect.
Thank you, it's great.
I think you're totally right.
You're totally right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
This was a great conversation.
Thank you, guys, so much forhaving me.
My mind is like always wheneven I talk, there's always like
, pinging, like, and then we'regoing to do this and then you
should do this.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Now, my mind is like you get reinvigorated, sometimes
talking with others and youknow.
So that's an encouragement toour listeners.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Talk with others.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
If you're struggling with something, talk, share.
You know you never know whatyou're going to get from those
conversations, and I know evenand I really hope that people
get that from from ourconversations with amazing
guests like Toya.
So thank you, toya, for beinghere.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me and forsharing with me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Thank you so much, Toya, and you know, in our show
notes and associated with thisepisode, we're going to let
people know how they can get intouch with you.
I know you do a lot of you knowfree giving.
Also, You're out there withyour messages.
You do some beautiful writing,so we definitely encourage our
listeners to be with you thatway and continue to learn about
you and your and your teachings.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Thank you so much.
Yes, please follow me on all.
Well, I'm on Instagram, I'm onSubstack.
It's really you really want tofollow me.
That's why I'm on Substack.
All right, awesome.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
All right.
Thank you everybody forlistening today.
We really appreciate it andremember if you have a pivot
step into it.
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