May 23, 2025 • 34 mins
In this thought-provoking conversation with psychiatrist Dr. Xiaojue Hu, we explore how integrating spirituality with conventional psychiatry creates powerful new possibilities for healing.
Dr. Hu shares the remarkable story of her own unexpected spiritual awakening that occurred during her fourth year of psychiatry residency at NYU. Raised by atheist parents from communist China, she experienced a profound shift in consciousness that opened her to both spiritual exploration and psychedelic research simultaneously. This personal transformation fundamentally changed how she approaches mental health treatment.
The heart of our discussion centers around viewing psychological challenges through metaphors that honor their transformative potential. Dr. Hu introduces the concept of the "descent journey" where we descend into emotional darkness, are stripped of familiar identities, and eventually emerge transformed. She compares psychological suffering to childbirth: painful and intense, but ultimately creating something new and meaningful from the experience.
Whether you're navigating your own mental health journey, supporting loved ones through theirs, or simply curious about new paradigms for understanding psychological suffering, this conversation offers valuable insights for Mental Health Awareness Month and beyond. Join us in exploring how viewing suffering through a sacred lens creates space for more comprehensive healing.
Guest Bio:
Dr. Xiaojue Hu is a psychiatrist based in New York City. She’s an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at the New York University Center for Psychedelic Medicine, where she's worked as the lead study therapist and co-investigator on multiple psilocybin clinical trials. Xiaojue has also worked with the pioneering nutritional psychiatrist Drew Ramsey as part of his group private practice Brain Food Clinic, where she has a holistic, integrative approach to mental health. She is trained in psychedelic integration and such mind-body therapeutic approaches as Internal Family Systems (IFS, Level 1) and Focusing. Xiaojue is especially interested in spirituality, women’s mental health, and cultural psychiatry (including issues around belonging, migration, race, and identity), and has previously worked as the leading psychiatrist at the Asian Bicultural Clinic at Gouverneur Health, a community mental health clinic providing care to the underserved.
Connect with Xiaojue:
PsychologyToday.com
Connect with Theresa and Ivana:
Theresa, True Strategy Consultants: tsc-consultants.com
LinkedIn @treeconti, Insta @tscconsultants
Ivana, Courageous Being: courageousbeing.com
LinkedIn @ivipol, Insta @courbeing
SITP team, Step Into The Pivot: stepintothepivot.com
LinkedIn @step-into-the-pivot, YouTube @StepIntoThePivot
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello everybody, Welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot.
I am so excited to be here.
This is Mental Health Awareness.
Month and I love havingconversations with amazing
people, women especially.
So Xiaojie Wu is here with ustoday.
So, xiaojie, I am so excited tomeet you and to hear what you
(00:28):
have to share with us.
So thank you for being heretoday.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So you're a psychiatrist based in New York
City.
You're working on somepsychedelic clinical research at
the New York University ofMedicine research at the New
York University of Medicine.
I think that's some amazingstuff, and I know you're also
trained in something calledfocusing Evie.
I think you're going to get alittle more into some of these
specifics, so I'm going to turnit over to you.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Thank you, Teresa, and welcome to the show.
It's so great to have you hereand I'm going to keep doing the
same thing.
I'll say well, I'll let Shownjatell us more, because that's
actually part of her pivot.
So talking about yourbackground and talking about
what you do for a living isreally the conversation about
you stepping into the pivot.
(01:17):
And I am so glad that you and Imet now several years ago,
right post pandemic, which wasalso an interesting time.
We met in Greece, as a matter offact, where both of us signed
up for this retreat likeconference, women's convocation,
and we didn't know each otherbefore.
(01:39):
But as soon as I saw you, Istarted to feel really connected
.
It was so easy to talk to youand I realized that you have
this beautiful way of you knowtalking the chop, talking you
know science, but also talkingthe spiritual side of all things
mental health, wellness,women's issues and it was just
(02:04):
such a joy to have thatconversation with you away on
the island of Crete, and nowwe're going to have that
conversation here on Zoom.
So, without any further ado,because if I keep talking, I'm
just going to keep likebasically discussing your pivot,
and that's not my job, that'syour job.
Can you help us anchor theseelements that we just
(02:27):
highlighted?
So psychiatry, psychedelics Imentioned spirituality, mental
health, mental health month.
Tell us about your professionaltraining and then help us
understand how this actually,you know, shapes you.
Who are you?
Untotally intended.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Yeah, thanks for the amazingintroduction.
So good to be here, yeah.
So yeah, in terms of mytraining, you know, as a
psychiatrist I was trained in apretty conventional way.
You know, I went to medicalschool and undergrad at Brown
University and then I did myadult psychiatry residency at
NYU or New York University and afellowship in psychosomatic
(03:14):
medicine, which almost soundslike it's like fake medicine,
but it's just about themind-body connection.
And yeah, something reallystrange happened to me in my
fourth year of psychiatryresidency, which actually is
about exactly like 10 years ago.
We're recording this in Apriland this literally happened in
like April 2015.
(03:34):
And just to give context to that, I was raised atheist.
My parents are Chinese fromcommunist China, my parents are
Chinese from communist China andI did dabble in like
Christianity as a teenager,which is some sort of like weird
reverse rebellion, because Iknow people often like go the
other way.
But I think in retrospect atthe time I got into that briefly
(03:58):
because of the spiritual hungerI was feeling to kind of
connect to something spiritual,something with deeper meaning.
I quickly became a bitdisillusioned with organized
religion, so I didn't even thinkabout, you know, god or
spirituality or anything foryears, until my fourth year of
training, and I still don'treally know how this happened,
(04:19):
but it like happened within afew weeks where I kind of went
from somebody who you knowdidn't really believe in
anything and maybe I might evenhave been someone who, like made
fun of people who you know didyoga, meditation or had crystals
and ironically now I do allthree things just felt this
(04:41):
inner passion or openness anddeep thirst to kind of learn
about everything spiritual.
I was like really open tobelieve in that realm where I
wasn't at all before and I stilldon't really know like what
triggered that.
The only thing I could think ofwas I did start meditating just
(05:02):
for a few months before, but itwas pretty low key.
It was like 20 minutes a weekor something, although I guess
it is good to know that evenmeditation is not without its
risks.
Aware of consciousness expansion, I also came across some books
(05:27):
on psychedelics and of course,as a nerd, books are like my
gateway drug to, you know,psychedelic drugs, and you know
Michael Pollan hadn't come outwith his book yet.
So I had read DMT SpiritMolecule by Rick Strassman,
which is about experiments wherethey gave DMT to different
people and kind of document whattheir experiences were like,
(05:50):
and another book by DanielPunchback called Breaking Open
the Head about his experienceswith different psychedelics like
ayahuasca and aboga, which I'dnever even heard about at that
time, and I just suddenly becamesuper obsessed with
psychedelics at the same time asspirituality, which I don't
think is a coincidence, becausewhat kind of really drew me to
that at the time was they seemedlike these medicines or
substances that really helppeople connect to the spiritual
(06:12):
realm and the types of healingand transformation that some
people seem to be able to havewith these plant medicines were
just far greater and deeper thanyou know what I was seeing on a
day-to-day level as apsychiatry resident, you know,
using conventional treatments.
So, yeah, so that really likehelped me shift.
(06:32):
What I was really interested inat the time.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Wow.
And so you talk about thisspiritual opening, right, like
you talked about that.
I'd love to hear a little moreabout that and how that, like
you know, brought you to thingsyou maybe didn't see before and
maybe changed right.
Talk a little more about howthat like kind of made you see
(06:59):
things you didn't see before andmaybe how that changed your
direction right, because that'sreally a big change, a big pivot
from what you were thinkingbefore, from what you said.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right, yeah, great question.
I think it just kind of expandedwhat I thought was possible and
what I was aware of.
And just as a caveat to what doI mean by spirituality?
I mean it doesn't really needto be anything super fancy or
super mystical or complicated,but you know it could be as
(07:31):
simple as you know, like thatsense of awe or magic that you
feel, maybe when you're inreally like beautiful nature or
when you've experienced like amoving piece of art, or, you
know, when you feel like you'reconnecting to your intuition or
something like that, because Iknow different people have
different feelings about wordsthat people might use in the
spiritual realm.
And, yes, I think it justhelped expand my perspective on,
(07:55):
you know well, what do mentalhealth conditions really mean in
that context?
And so you know I was trainedwith a more biomedical paradigm
where, you know, everything isseen as sort of like a disease
with a really physical basis, acause, and usually to treat that
disease you need like amedication or other kind of
modality to correct the physicalcause.
(08:17):
And you know, in psychiatrypeople also think about the
psychological and the social,but nobody definitely talked
about like a spiritual contextand I think having that lens
helped me to think about, well,what is the sacred context for
these conditions that are now,you know, for better or worse,
becoming more and more prevalent, like anxiety, depression, ptsd
(08:38):
, you know.
Are they all like diseases?
Are they, you know, signs thatthere's something wrong with us?
Or is there maybe a deepermeaning to the suffering that
people are going through?
And I know even and I havetalked a little bit about, like
the descent journey and I heardyou mentioned this was talked
about in other podcast episodes.
(08:59):
I guess I won't go into toomuch detail there, but I think
that feels like a really nicemetaphor to talk about someone's
mental health challenge as well.
And another metaphor might bethat of like the dark night of
the soul which comes from, youknow, more Christian mystical
tradition.
Or or even a more like concretemetaphor would be like a birth
(09:21):
or something.
And so the way I see it is sortof like, you know, if we see a
woman like screaming in pain orwrithing, but we don't know that
she's giving birth, like maybewe can't see her body or
something, we might think thatshe's like dying or like
severely injured or something,but as soon as we know that
she's actually giving birth,then that really shifts the
(09:44):
whole context of how we see thesuffering that she's going
through.
And so, you know, in a descentjourney, for example, there's
that process where you're kindof like going down into the
underworld or like hittingemotional rock bottom or
something, where you're kind ofbeing stripped away maybe of
everything that was familiar toyou or that you had depended on,
that you thought was you, orthat you identified so closely
(10:08):
with, until you go throughalmost like a metaphoric death
in a way.
And then there's the ascentjourney where you're kind of
going back to the above worldbut you're changed, you're sort
of different.
And if we're thinking about thebirth metaphor, it's almost like
you're a kind of like reborn.
You're kind of giving birth toanother new version of different
.
And if we're thinking about thebirth metaphor, it's almost
like you're a kind of likereborn.
You're kind of giving birth toanother new version of yourself,
(10:29):
and you know.
So I'm using these metaphorsbecause they kind of come from a
more spiritual way of maybeseeing or interpreting suffering
, which I feel is also helpfulin addition to understanding.
You know all the physiologicbasis of you, know all of these,
you know mental healthconditions and all the other
(10:50):
interventions that we use totarget that Like.
I think there's room for bothviews as well, and it's also
important to understand thecontext, sometimes for suffering
it's so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
You know, one of the reasons I mentioned when we were
chatting offline, that we'vetalked about the descent journey
on the podcast is actuallybecause the full pivot idea step
into the pivot is really aboutthese transformative descent
journeys.
Every episode we essentiallytouch it because we talk about
(11:26):
how, you know, tell us aboutwith our guests on a regular
basis, tell us about somethingthat happened to you that likely
is something that you didn'twant happening, you didn't plan
on it, it was unexpected, andtypically we talk about
something that was really hard.
And then this idea that you'regoing to like, in order to fully
(11:46):
experience that, you're goingto kind of like, come into it,
be with it, and then, when youdigest it, metabolize it,
process it, transform, you'regoing to come out another way.
So there's going to be an exitpoint that's not exactly the
same as the entry point and thenwe'll, you know, in plain
English, we'll say you'll bekinder, more generous, more
(12:09):
loving, more capable, moreskills will be had.
You know, something will be,there will be gifts, there will
be, you know, knowledge gleanedfrom this experience and it will
have changed you and you willbe able to say that it in some
way changed for the better.
Also and that's notsugarcoating the difficult you
know.
So you're helping us.
(12:30):
Also, you know, bring in someadditional understanding when it
comes to you know people's, theother episodes that we've had.
That's really beautiful, butyou also work with the
population that you know some ofour guests don't.
Can you give us some examplesfrom your work of exactly what
you're talking about?
And then, as we're thinkingabout May and mental health in a
(12:51):
month when you know a lot ofchallenges get discussed too,
give us some examples from yourwork that resonate with you.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, as apsychiatrist, often I do work
with people with, you know,maybe more severe mental health
challenges and so, um, you know,I definitely don't want to
minimize like sometimes they, ifyou're in a state where you're
really suffering and say you'relike so depressed you can't even
get out of bed, you're notfeeding yourself properly, you
(13:24):
can't leave your house, maybeyou're having suicidal thoughts
or something and maybe you arenot, you know, thinking about
like the descent journey and howhelpful is this metaphor?
I'm going to become a newversion of myself, like maybe
you're not going to be thereusually when you're in that
state, and so maybe in thatstate, that is the time where
you know you do want to relymore on stuff like medications,
(13:49):
or also, you know, therapy, Iwould say along the entire
process probably would behelpful, or at least working
with someone could even be acoach or a teacher or a mentor,
and so yeah.
So I think that it reallydepends on which stage one is at
in the process of healing, thatit really depends on which
stage one is at in the processof healing.
So in the more severe stages, Ithink you know, there's
(14:09):
definitely something to be saidabout you know how do we just
alleviate the suffering, youknow, acutely, and sometimes
that may mean taking medication.
Or, you know, in more severecircumstances, if someone is
just not physically safe, likedo they even need to be
hospitalized or be in adifferent, you know, level of
care?
Like, do they even need to behospitalized or be in a
different, you know level ofcare?
And the way I think aboutmedications is sort of like if
(14:31):
somebody broke their leg andthey need to have a cast.
The medication itself is sortof like that cast where it's not
necessarily doing the actualhealing.
The body is doing the healingwith its own you know, healing
intelligence, but it isprotecting the leg, it's
protecting the psyche fromfurther injury and it's kind of
(14:52):
say, for time on anantidepressant, it's giving a
floor to how low somebody canfeel, even though it also offers
a ceiling to how amazing theycan feel.
But if they're starting outreally low, they're usually not
as worried about the other sideof it where it could be a little
numbing.
And so once you're able tostabilize somebody, then they
may have deeper capacity tothink about, like, okay, what
(15:13):
are?
How did I even get here?
You know, like, what are thedeeper questions to ask which
you know hopefully they can do,maybe with the help of a
professional like a therapist orsomething like that, where they
could think about like, ohactually I became super
depressed Right after I had likemultiple losses and maybe it's
(15:34):
a lot of unresolved grief thatyou know I need to work through.
There's really no timeline forgrief and you know, I think in
our culture there's not a lot ofritual around.
You know, how do you handlethat?
And so sometimes it gets kindof put into the bucket of
depression, when maybe it's alsojust a really natural mourning
(15:54):
process and it takes some peoplelonger than others.
Or you know, maybe someone'sgone through a lot of childhood
abuse and maybe some of it theydon't even remember and maybe
some of it they don't evenremember, and then you know like
they always feel like why can'tI move beyond a certain point
in their lives?
You know I'm always havinganxiety, panic attacks,
nightmares, whatever, and soit's sort of like asking those
(16:17):
deeper questions of okay, whatare the roots of some of the
suffering?
Like what is that trauma?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And with trauma work, often people talk about things
like the window of toleranceno-transcript have to kind of
(17:02):
figure out where we're at andmake ourselves figure out where
we're at, so that we can kind ofbe there and then figure out
how to move forward, right, orhow to do that.
And you talked about the stagesof healing, right, are there
stages?
Or is there support we can giveothers when we know that
(17:24):
something like this is going on?
I mean, I can tell you I'vetold you this story, right, we
have my husband's dad, who's 81years old, and he's just up and
down and back and forth and younever know when you walk into
his house what kind of mentalstate he's gonna be in.
And it's a very interestingthing with him, like you try to
(17:46):
be general with him, butsometimes, honestly, he needs a
kick to get moving right thathe's just kind of wallowing in
his own.
So can you talk a little aboutsupport, maybe, how we can and I
think my example is quiteextreme, but I think a lot of
our listeners probably havethose types of things, right,
they have.
We've talked with people whohave, you know, parents that
(18:07):
they're dealing with and thesekinds of things, and trying to
really support them as they aretrying to move towards the
healing.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, yeah, great question.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Um um.
Well, I think, uh, one onething is to just be aware that
sometimes you know whensomeone's going through
something like whatever we'reseeing, it's not their whole
self.
You know, and I see symptoms,you know, not necessarily as
(18:36):
things we want to get rid of,even though also sometimes we
really want to, you know,relieve the pain, relieve the
suffering.
Or if someone's having a panicattack, maybe you know like
maybe they do need to take amedication to calm down.
But symptoms are sometimes alsosignals, I see, as coming from
different parts of ourselvesthat just need our attention.
(18:57):
And often what is happening whensomeone is in the midst of you
know what we see as somethingreally difficult.
You know, maybe they're superangry or they're super depressed
, super anxious, it's that sortof like almost a wounded part of
themselves, but that's nottheir whole self.
I think, especially supportingpeople who are, who are really
close to us, it might be reallyhard sometimes to see them in
(19:19):
those states, and so it's reallyimportant to remember that's
not all that they are and thatthey're going through something,
and it's important to remember,you know, maybe, the deeper
parts of who they are, but also,obviously, if we're in the role
of giving support or evencaregiving, it's really
important to connect to us, orstay connected to ourselves as
(19:39):
well, like, where are our limits?
You know what?
At what point do we need totake a break?
You know, in dealing with, youknow what's happening.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I love that you talked about limits, because I
have this conversation with myhusband all the time.
I'm like you need to have yourlimits with him, like you can't
right, like I love that youtalked about that honestly.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
That makes me feel so much better.
Totally yeah, boundaries andself-care are so, so important.
We can't be everything toeveryone, that's right.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And I love that you asked that question, teresa,
because you know, in thatcontext, you know you are not
trained like Xiaojie to providemental health support and yet
you know you guys are in it dayto day and very frequently and
you will be, you know, called toprovide some of that support
(20:32):
even though you don't have thetraining.
So it's really wonderful tolearn from experts.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah, and we'd love for him to go talk to somebody,
but he outright refuses, right,like, so it's, it's.
It puts us in a weird spot,like you know, you also can't
force him, he's an adult, but Iknow that would do well for him,
I know that, but it does,you're right, it puts a lot of
pressure on, and I know we'renot the only people going
(20:59):
through that, with parents andother things.
I mean, I talk with people allthe time and it seems like that
comes up more in conversationthan ever.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
So, yeah, yeah yeah, no, I think that's just
inherently a super challengingplace to be in um in general,
and there's no like fast or easyanswers to that um, I think
especially with a parent-childrelationship, because I feel
like whatever it is, it's goingto trigger all of your most
primitive, biggest things, right, if it's a parent um yeah, yeah
(21:30):
, and I'm thinking back on thecomment you made, xiaojie, about
you know, culturally speaking,here in Western culture, we
don't necessarily have goodsystems anymore to help us, you
know, to help us shepherdourselves and each other through
some of these deeper, morechallenging, emotionally loaded,
(21:54):
grieving experiences.
So, you know, there is no riteof passage, there is no ritual
and I'm wondering if you know,in that context, psychedelics,
you see them as a bridge betweensome of these ancient practices
of healing and modernsituations?
Maybe there's, maybe thatperspective plays a role.
(22:19):
Tell us a little bit about your, you know, interest and how you
see psychedelics actually, youknow, functioning and as helpers
in this whole context thatwe've been discussing.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, well, I, I see them, you know they're, I think
you know they are really usefulat certain stages of healing.
So I think you know it's.
It's great for some people andalso it has its own risks as
well.
So I definitely, as a caveat,first I have to say psychedelics
are not for everyone, but ifyou have a certain level of
(22:54):
stability, you know, I thinkthey can be an extremely
powerful tool potentially.
And what I like about it isthat they have a really holistic
approach to healing.
So, rather than say numbingsymptoms, which is what a lot of
psychiatric drugs do andthere's a place for that, as we
talked about what they do isthey amplify stuff, so they
(23:15):
amplify all your emotions, theyamplify your memories, your
thoughts.
If you've got some traumaticstuff happening, potentially
that will come up in apsychedelic journey, necessarily
.
But often what happens is thatit brings things up that may
(23:36):
need to be healed, so that youcan feel it, so that you can see
clearly what the situation is,that maybe you have repressed
for a long time or just didn'twant to deal with, and usually
people come out the other sidefeeling a lot better and so so
it kind of targets it.
There's a physiologic basis tothat as well.
You know there's a lot ofstudies around.
(23:56):
You know the serotoninreceptors that it works on and
brain imaging showing how ithelps different parts of the
brain communicate to other partsof the brain on the spiritual
level.
So what people often senseinside a journey is a connection
to something greater thanthemselves, because there are
(24:17):
certain types of pain thatsometimes we just cannot bear
alone.
Like you said there's.
We need we need not onlysupport from other people.
We need, like a sacredcontainer that can hold some of
the suffering, and sometimes wejust need a connection to
something bigger than ourselves,whatever we want to call it.
In 12-step people call thathigher power, or you can even
(24:39):
say even just your inner wisdom,or the universe, whatever you
want to call that, whateverthat's bigger than your own,
maybe more ego-based, limitedperception of who you are, and
so within a psychedelic journey,people often feel that
connection or they feel likesomething is guiding them.
Some people see it as like,maybe God, you know, sometimes
(25:03):
they're coming from that beliefsystem, sometimes they're
connected to, like you know, areally much better, more
confident, competent version ofthemselves, or sometimes it's a
relative, someone comforting,who's like taking them through
that journey as a guide.
And so I work, you know, on atrial currently using psilocybin
(25:24):
to treat existential distressin people with advanced cancer.
And you know, often we aretalking a lot about people's
fears of dying, because that'ssort of the criteria to get
people in the study, like, areyou really struggling with that?
So of course the conversationsa lot of them do center around
that kind of stuff.
And so what I've seenanecdotally multiple times in
(25:46):
these journeys is that peoplewill face their fears of death
in the journey itself.
And it could be differentversions of that.
It could be as extreme as theyliterally believe they're dying
right now, like on the couch,even though we all know they're
physically safe, but they reallybelieve they're dying.
Or their fear manifests inother, more metaphoric ways, but
(26:06):
they're feeling it.
But then usually the next day,if they go through that, they
usually feel like much, muchbetter.
It's almost like the fear hasbeen cleared away or something
like that.
And so that's another exampleof healing where, instead of
numbing a symptom, what you'redoing, you're bringing it forth
so you can work through it sothat it could be kind of fully
(26:29):
released.
So that's like one way thatI've seen psychedelics work yeah
.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I learned a lot today , so I appreciate that.
I think it's a very interesting.
You know, I love thespirituality part of it and I
love how that like kind of comestogether.
You know it, it, it totally.
Yeah.
Yeah, I learned a lot.
Evie, I know you have somethingto say.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Well, I was listening to you talk, xiaojin, picturing
you being really the pivotmaster in this ability to hold
space for other people whilethey're going through their own
pivots.
You know whether it's someonewho is, you know, within a
journey and they're, you know,having a massive experience, or
(27:19):
it's someone you're treatingmore traditionally.
You know, here you are beingthe, being trained to be the,
you know, that sacred containerso that people can have these
descent journeys, and that'sreally cool.
I really wanted to presencethat because I mean, that's not,
you know that, that's not easy.
That must be really you knowthat's a that's a big story for
(27:42):
you.
So I'm curious if you'retapping into your own
spirituality to take us back tothe beginning, your own, you
know spiritual opening and thatpivot, and tell us how it's been
a step forward for you.
And I'm particularly curious interms of how you use that
opening and your ownspirituality to help, you know,
(28:05):
resource yourself as you keepshowing up for people while
they're going through something.
You know that can be asdifficult as what you described
as existential distress.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, thank you for that question.
Well, you know everything I'mtalking about in terms of like.
How do you deal with challengesthat?
You know it applies to me asmuch as it does to my clients.
You know, for me, I also haveto keep in mind like there is
meaning through whateversuffering that I'm going through
.
And so, yeah, I do feel likehaving a spiritual you know
(28:45):
perspective definitely helpswith resourcing, connecting to
something bigger than myself.
So, also breaking out of theparadigm that I was trained in
of the doctor being like theexpert and the authority and
then the patient being like thispassive receiver of like okay,
I've got to do what the doctorsays but rather going back into
that like birth metaphor, whereI'm more like the midwife and
I'm here to support a processthat's already naturally
happening for the other person.
(29:06):
But how can I support that?
So it's not just on me and justbased on my skills and whatever
wisdom I have, but it's alsolike how do I connect them to
their inner wisdom?
There's that faith thateveryone has that inside of
themselves, no matter what theymight look like on the outside,
and how do I give them as muchpower as possible back to them?
So it's not like they're askingme to save them or heal them or
(29:27):
something.
It's like how do we facilitate anatural healing process?
That's probably one of thebigger shifts for me in terms of
orienting on how to like treatpeople or hold space with people
.
But I also like what youbrought up, even about how we
don't have those containers orrituals for, you know, helping
people move through suffering inthis day and age and I think
(29:49):
that's a big root of a lot ofour suffering to that
disconnection we feel, not onlyfrom parts of ourselves but each
other, community and nature,and maybe even our ancestors,
and how, maybe you know.
I wonder if facilitating moreconnection to that can help
everyone feel more resourced tohold space for themselves and
(30:10):
for people that they love.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, no, thank you so much.
You gave us so much to thinkabout.
Um, it was an honor, a pleasureto have you here.
Um, like I said, you reallymade me think and you know this
is such an important topic,especially, you know, during
mental health awareness month,and things we often need to
(30:31):
think about, and you know, bethere for others and figure out.
You know some of our own thingssometimes and you know it's
taking that space, it's taking astep back, it's going going
further or, you know, thinkingabout something else or whatever
that looks like.
So, evie, do you have any finalthoughts?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
whatever that looks like.
So, evie, do you have any finalthoughts?
I love the description ofspirituality that you gave at
the beginning.
I'm remembering when we met,you know, we were doing, as part
of the retreat work, a lot ofexercises that had to do with
mindfulness, mind-body-breathconnection, and we would
meditate together and do someother practices, and then we
(31:16):
would have free time duringwhich we could go to the beach,
and I remember standing therewith my feet in the water and
looking at the waves and thentaking a swim and then hearing
the sound of the Mediterraneanand just feeling like, wow,
there it is the awe, you know.
So, yes, one way to access itwas through dedicated practice
(31:41):
and, you know, dropping in andI'm using a funny voice right
now, I don't mean to be mockingit that was immensely beautiful
too.
But then there was this otheravenue, where I don't know what
it is that I'm calling it, whereI don't know what it is that
I'm calling it, but it's not anit, it's an everything, and it
was just so beautiful to be inthat space of the awe.
You know, and thank you forbringing some of that awe here
(32:04):
through this episode for us.
You're clearly, you knowsomeone we could talk to for a
long time about so manydifferent topics and I hope we
do continue the conversation andif our listeners are interested
in learning more about you,they can also find you online.
I know you have an activeLinkedIn profile.
We'll link to that in our shownotes, anything else.
(32:25):
Shaujah from you as we saygoodbye.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
No, it's been such an honor and a pleasure to be here
and thank you for theopportunity to like talk about
these topics with you guys.
So thank you, yeah, yes thankyou so much today.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Thank you, ivana.
Thank you to all our listenerstoday.
We were happy to have you here,as we always are, so we will
see you in the next episodewe'll be out in two weeks and in
the meantime, if you have apivot step into it,
Hello everybody, Welcome to this week's episode
of Step Into the Pivot.
I am so excited to be here.
This is Mental Health Awareness.
Month and I love havingconversations with amazing
people, women especially.
So Xiaojie Wu is here with ustoday.
So, xiaojie, I am so excited tomeet you and to hear what you
(00:28):
have to share with us.
So thank you for being heretoday.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
So you're a psychiatrist based in New York
City.
You're working on somepsychedelic clinical research at
the New York University ofMedicine research at the New
York University of Medicine.
I think that's some amazingstuff, and I know you're also
trained in something calledfocusing Evie.
I think you're going to get alittle more into some of these
specifics, so I'm going to turnit over to you.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Thank you, Teresa, and welcome to the show.
It's so great to have you hereand I'm going to keep doing the
same thing.
I'll say well, I'll let Shownjatell us more, because that's
actually part of her pivot.
So talking about yourbackground and talking about
what you do for a living isreally the conversation about
you stepping into the pivot.
(01:17):
And I am so glad that you and Imet now several years ago,
right post pandemic, which wasalso an interesting time.
We met in Greece, as a matter offact, where both of us signed
up for this retreat likeconference, women's convocation,
and we didn't know each otherbefore.
(01:39):
But as soon as I saw you, Istarted to feel really connected
.
It was so easy to talk to youand I realized that you have
this beautiful way of you knowtalking the chop, talking you
know science, but also talkingthe spiritual side of all things
mental health, wellness,women's issues and it was just
(02:04):
such a joy to have thatconversation with you away on
the island of Crete, and nowwe're going to have that
conversation here on Zoom.
So, without any further ado,because if I keep talking, I'm
just going to keep likebasically discussing your pivot,
and that's not my job, that'syour job.
Can you help us anchor theseelements that we just
(02:27):
highlighted?
So psychiatry, psychedelics Imentioned spirituality, mental
health, mental health month.
Tell us about your professionaltraining and then help us
understand how this actually,you know, shapes you.
Who are you?
Untotally intended.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Yeah, thanks for the amazingintroduction.
So good to be here, yeah.
So yeah, in terms of mytraining, you know, as a
psychiatrist I was trained in apretty conventional way.
You know, I went to medicalschool and undergrad at Brown
University and then I did myadult psychiatry residency at
NYU or New York University and afellowship in psychosomatic
(03:14):
medicine, which almost soundslike it's like fake medicine,
but it's just about themind-body connection.
And yeah, something reallystrange happened to me in my
fourth year of psychiatryresidency, which actually is
about exactly like 10 years ago.
We're recording this in Apriland this literally happened in
like April 2015.
(03:34):
And just to give context to that, I was raised atheist.
My parents are Chinese fromcommunist China, my parents are
Chinese from communist China andI did dabble in like
Christianity as a teenager,which is some sort of like weird
reverse rebellion, because Iknow people often like go the
other way.
But I think in retrospect atthe time I got into that briefly
(03:58):
because of the spiritual hungerI was feeling to kind of
connect to something spiritual,something with deeper meaning.
I quickly became a bitdisillusioned with organized
religion, so I didn't even thinkabout, you know, god or
spirituality or anything foryears, until my fourth year of
training, and I still don'treally know how this happened,
(04:19):
but it like happened within afew weeks where I kind of went
from somebody who you knowdidn't really believe in
anything and maybe I might evenhave been someone who, like made
fun of people who you know didyoga, meditation or had crystals
and ironically now I do allthree things just felt this
(04:41):
inner passion or openness anddeep thirst to kind of learn
about everything spiritual.
I was like really open tobelieve in that realm where I
wasn't at all before and I stilldon't really know like what
triggered that.
The only thing I could think ofwas I did start meditating just
(05:02):
for a few months before, but itwas pretty low key.
It was like 20 minutes a weekor something, although I guess
it is good to know that evenmeditation is not without its
risks.
Aware of consciousness expansion, I also came across some books
(05:27):
on psychedelics and of course,as a nerd, books are like my
gateway drug to, you know,psychedelic drugs, and you know
Michael Pollan hadn't come outwith his book yet.
So I had read DMT SpiritMolecule by Rick Strassman,
which is about experiments wherethey gave DMT to different
people and kind of document whattheir experiences were like,
(05:50):
and another book by DanielPunchback called Breaking Open
the Head about his experienceswith different psychedelics like
ayahuasca and aboga, which I'dnever even heard about at that
time, and I just suddenly becamesuper obsessed with
psychedelics at the same time asspirituality, which I don't
think is a coincidence, becausewhat kind of really drew me to
that at the time was they seemedlike these medicines or
substances that really helppeople connect to the spiritual
(06:12):
realm and the types of healingand transformation that some
people seem to be able to havewith these plant medicines were
just far greater and deeper thanyou know what I was seeing on a
day-to-day level as apsychiatry resident, you know,
using conventional treatments.
So, yeah, so that really likehelped me shift.
(06:32):
What I was really interested inat the time.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Wow.
And so you talk about thisspiritual opening, right, like
you talked about that.
I'd love to hear a little moreabout that and how that, like
you know, brought you to thingsyou maybe didn't see before and
maybe changed right.
Talk a little more about howthat like kind of made you see
(06:59):
things you didn't see before andmaybe how that changed your
direction right, because that'sreally a big change, a big pivot
from what you were thinkingbefore, from what you said.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right, yeah, great question.
I think it just kind of expandedwhat I thought was possible and
what I was aware of.
And just as a caveat to what doI mean by spirituality?
I mean it doesn't really needto be anything super fancy or
super mystical or complicated,but you know it could be as
(07:31):
simple as you know, like thatsense of awe or magic that you
feel, maybe when you're inreally like beautiful nature or
when you've experienced like amoving piece of art, or, you
know, when you feel like you'reconnecting to your intuition or
something like that, because Iknow different people have
different feelings about wordsthat people might use in the
spiritual realm.
And, yes, I think it justhelped expand my perspective on,
(07:55):
you know well, what do mentalhealth conditions really mean in
that context?
And so you know I was trainedwith a more biomedical paradigm
where, you know, everything isseen as sort of like a disease
with a really physical basis, acause, and usually to treat that
disease you need like amedication or other kind of
modality to correct the physicalcause.
(08:17):
And you know, in psychiatrypeople also think about the
psychological and the social,but nobody definitely talked
about like a spiritual contextand I think having that lens
helped me to think about, well,what is the sacred context for
these conditions that are now,you know, for better or worse,
becoming more and more prevalent, like anxiety, depression, ptsd
(08:38):
, you know.
Are they all like diseases?
Are they, you know, signs thatthere's something wrong with us?
Or is there maybe a deepermeaning to the suffering that
people are going through?
And I know even and I havetalked a little bit about, like
the descent journey and I heardyou mentioned this was talked
about in other podcast episodes.
(08:59):
I guess I won't go into toomuch detail there, but I think
that feels like a really nicemetaphor to talk about someone's
mental health challenge as well.
And another metaphor might bethat of like the dark night of
the soul which comes from, youknow, more Christian mystical
tradition.
Or or even a more like concretemetaphor would be like a birth
(09:21):
or something.
And so the way I see it is sortof like, you know, if we see a
woman like screaming in pain orwrithing, but we don't know that
she's giving birth, like maybewe can't see her body or
something, we might think thatshe's like dying or like
severely injured or something,but as soon as we know that
she's actually giving birth,then that really shifts the
(09:44):
whole context of how we see thesuffering that she's going
through.
And so, you know, in a descentjourney, for example, there's
that process where you're kindof like going down into the
underworld or like hittingemotional rock bottom or
something, where you're kind ofbeing stripped away maybe of
everything that was familiar toyou or that you had depended on,
that you thought was you, orthat you identified so closely
(10:08):
with, until you go throughalmost like a metaphoric death
in a way.
And then there's the ascentjourney where you're kind of
going back to the above worldbut you're changed, you're sort
of different.
And if we're thinking about thebirth metaphor, it's almost like
you're a kind of like reborn.
You're kind of giving birth toanother new version of different
.
And if we're thinking about thebirth metaphor, it's almost
like you're a kind of likereborn.
You're kind of giving birth toanother new version of yourself,
(10:29):
and you know.
So I'm using these metaphorsbecause they kind of come from a
more spiritual way of maybeseeing or interpreting suffering
, which I feel is also helpfulin addition to understanding.
You know all the physiologicbasis of you, know all of these,
you know mental healthconditions and all the other
(10:50):
interventions that we use totarget that Like.
I think there's room for bothviews as well, and it's also
important to understand thecontext, sometimes for suffering
it's so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
You know, one of the reasons I mentioned when we were
chatting offline, that we'vetalked about the descent journey
on the podcast is actuallybecause the full pivot idea step
into the pivot is really aboutthese transformative descent
journeys.
Every episode we essentiallytouch it because we talk about
(11:26):
how, you know, tell us aboutwith our guests on a regular
basis, tell us about somethingthat happened to you that likely
is something that you didn'twant happening, you didn't plan
on it, it was unexpected, andtypically we talk about
something that was really hard.
And then this idea that you'regoing to like, in order to fully
(11:46):
experience that, you're goingto kind of like, come into it,
be with it, and then, when youdigest it, metabolize it,
process it, transform, you'regoing to come out another way.
So there's going to be an exitpoint that's not exactly the
same as the entry point and thenwe'll, you know, in plain
English, we'll say you'll bekinder, more generous, more
(12:09):
loving, more capable, moreskills will be had.
You know, something will be,there will be gifts, there will
be, you know, knowledge gleanedfrom this experience and it will
have changed you and you willbe able to say that it in some
way changed for the better.
Also and that's notsugarcoating the difficult you
know.
So you're helping us.
(12:30):
Also, you know, bring in someadditional understanding when it
comes to you know people's, theother episodes that we've had.
That's really beautiful, butyou also work with the
population that you know some ofour guests don't.
Can you give us some examplesfrom your work of exactly what
you're talking about?
And then, as we're thinkingabout May and mental health in a
(12:51):
month when you know a lot ofchallenges get discussed too,
give us some examples from yourwork that resonate with you.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, as apsychiatrist, often I do work
with people with, you know,maybe more severe mental health
challenges and so, um, you know,I definitely don't want to
minimize like sometimes they, ifyou're in a state where you're
really suffering and say you'relike so depressed you can't even
get out of bed, you're notfeeding yourself properly, you
(13:24):
can't leave your house, maybeyou're having suicidal thoughts
or something and maybe you arenot, you know, thinking about
like the descent journey and howhelpful is this metaphor?
I'm going to become a newversion of myself, like maybe
you're not going to be thereusually when you're in that
state, and so maybe in thatstate, that is the time where
you know you do want to relymore on stuff like medications,
(13:49):
or also, you know, therapy, Iwould say along the entire
process probably would behelpful, or at least working
with someone could even be acoach or a teacher or a mentor,
and so yeah.
So I think that it reallydepends on which stage one is at
in the process of healing, thatit really depends on which
stage one is at in the processof healing.
So in the more severe stages, Ithink you know, there's
(14:09):
definitely something to be saidabout you know how do we just
alleviate the suffering, youknow, acutely, and sometimes
that may mean taking medication.
Or, you know, in more severecircumstances, if someone is
just not physically safe, likedo they even need to be
hospitalized or be in adifferent, you know, level of
care?
Like, do they even need to behospitalized or be in a
different, you know level ofcare?
And the way I think aboutmedications is sort of like if
(14:31):
somebody broke their leg andthey need to have a cast.
The medication itself is sortof like that cast where it's not
necessarily doing the actualhealing.
The body is doing the healingwith its own you know, healing
intelligence, but it isprotecting the leg, it's
protecting the psyche fromfurther injury and it's kind of
(14:52):
say, for time on anantidepressant, it's giving a
floor to how low somebody canfeel, even though it also offers
a ceiling to how amazing theycan feel.
But if they're starting outreally low, they're usually not
as worried about the other sideof it where it could be a little
numbing.
And so once you're able tostabilize somebody, then they
may have deeper capacity tothink about, like, okay, what
(15:13):
are?
How did I even get here?
You know, like, what are thedeeper questions to ask which
you know hopefully they can do,maybe with the help of a
professional like a therapist orsomething like that, where they
could think about like, ohactually I became super
depressed Right after I had likemultiple losses and maybe it's
(15:34):
a lot of unresolved grief thatyou know I need to work through.
There's really no timeline forgrief and you know, I think in
our culture there's not a lot ofritual around.
You know, how do you handlethat?
And so sometimes it gets kindof put into the bucket of
depression, when maybe it's alsojust a really natural mourning
(15:54):
process and it takes some peoplelonger than others.
Or you know, maybe someone'sgone through a lot of childhood
abuse and maybe some of it theydon't even remember and maybe
some of it they don't evenremember, and then you know like
they always feel like why can'tI move beyond a certain point
in their lives?
You know I'm always havinganxiety, panic attacks,
nightmares, whatever, and soit's sort of like asking those
(16:17):
deeper questions of okay, whatare the roots of some of the
suffering?
Like what is that trauma?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And with trauma work, often people talk about things
like the window of toleranceno-transcript have to kind of
(17:02):
figure out where we're at andmake ourselves figure out where
we're at, so that we can kind ofbe there and then figure out
how to move forward, right, orhow to do that.
And you talked about the stagesof healing, right, are there
stages?
Or is there support we can giveothers when we know that
(17:24):
something like this is going on?
I mean, I can tell you I'vetold you this story, right, we
have my husband's dad, who's 81years old, and he's just up and
down and back and forth and younever know when you walk into
his house what kind of mentalstate he's gonna be in.
And it's a very interestingthing with him, like you try to
(17:46):
be general with him, butsometimes, honestly, he needs a
kick to get moving right thathe's just kind of wallowing in
his own.
So can you talk a little aboutsupport, maybe, how we can and I
think my example is quiteextreme, but I think a lot of
our listeners probably havethose types of things, right,
they have.
We've talked with people whohave, you know, parents that
(18:07):
they're dealing with and thesekinds of things, and trying to
really support them as they aretrying to move towards the
healing.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, yeah, great question.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Um um.
Well, I think, uh, one onething is to just be aware that
sometimes you know whensomeone's going through
something like whatever we'reseeing, it's not their whole
self.
You know, and I see symptoms,you know, not necessarily as
(18:36):
things we want to get rid of,even though also sometimes we
really want to, you know,relieve the pain, relieve the
suffering.
Or if someone's having a panicattack, maybe you know like
maybe they do need to take amedication to calm down.
But symptoms are sometimes alsosignals, I see, as coming from
different parts of ourselvesthat just need our attention.
(18:57):
And often what is happening whensomeone is in the midst of you
know what we see as somethingreally difficult.
You know, maybe they're superangry or they're super depressed
, super anxious, it's that sortof like almost a wounded part of
themselves, but that's nottheir whole self.
I think, especially supportingpeople who are, who are really
close to us, it might be reallyhard sometimes to see them in
(19:19):
those states, and so it's reallyimportant to remember that's
not all that they are and thatthey're going through something,
and it's important to remember,you know, maybe, the deeper
parts of who they are, but also,obviously, if we're in the role
of giving support or evencaregiving, it's really
important to connect to us, orstay connected to ourselves as
(19:39):
well, like, where are our limits?
You know what?
At what point do we need totake a break?
You know, in dealing with, youknow what's happening.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
I love that you talked about limits, because I
have this conversation with myhusband all the time.
I'm like you need to have yourlimits with him, like you can't
right, like I love that youtalked about that honestly.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
That makes me feel so much better.
Totally yeah, boundaries andself-care are so, so important.
We can't be everything toeveryone, that's right.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And I love that you asked that question, teresa,
because you know, in thatcontext, you know you are not
trained like Xiaojie to providemental health support and yet
you know you guys are in it dayto day and very frequently and
you will be, you know, called toprovide some of that support
(20:32):
even though you don't have thetraining.
So it's really wonderful tolearn from experts.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah, and we'd love for him to go talk to somebody,
but he outright refuses, right,like, so it's, it's.
It puts us in a weird spot,like you know, you also can't
force him, he's an adult, but Iknow that would do well for him,
I know that, but it does,you're right, it puts a lot of
pressure on, and I know we'renot the only people going
(20:59):
through that, with parents andother things.
I mean, I talk with people allthe time and it seems like that
comes up more in conversationthan ever.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
So, yeah, yeah yeah, no, I think that's just
inherently a super challengingplace to be in um in general,
and there's no like fast or easyanswers to that um, I think
especially with a parent-childrelationship, because I feel
like whatever it is, it's goingto trigger all of your most
primitive, biggest things, right, if it's a parent um yeah, yeah
(21:30):
, and I'm thinking back on thecomment you made, xiaojie, about
you know, culturally speaking,here in Western culture, we
don't necessarily have goodsystems anymore to help us, you
know, to help us shepherdourselves and each other through
some of these deeper, morechallenging, emotionally loaded,
(21:54):
grieving experiences.
So, you know, there is no riteof passage, there is no ritual
and I'm wondering if you know,in that context, psychedelics,
you see them as a bridge betweensome of these ancient practices
of healing and modernsituations?
Maybe there's, maybe thatperspective plays a role.
(22:19):
Tell us a little bit about your, you know, interest and how you
see psychedelics actually, youknow, functioning and as helpers
in this whole context thatwe've been discussing.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, well, I, I see them, you know they're, I think
you know they are really usefulat certain stages of healing.
So I think you know it's.
It's great for some people andalso it has its own risks as
well.
So I definitely, as a caveat,first I have to say psychedelics
are not for everyone, but ifyou have a certain level of
(22:54):
stability, you know, I thinkthey can be an extremely
powerful tool potentially.
And what I like about it isthat they have a really holistic
approach to healing.
So, rather than say numbingsymptoms, which is what a lot of
psychiatric drugs do andthere's a place for that, as we
talked about what they do isthey amplify stuff, so they
(23:15):
amplify all your emotions, theyamplify your memories, your
thoughts.
If you've got some traumaticstuff happening, potentially
that will come up in apsychedelic journey, necessarily
.
But often what happens is thatit brings things up that may
(23:36):
need to be healed, so that youcan feel it, so that you can see
clearly what the situation is,that maybe you have repressed
for a long time or just didn'twant to deal with, and usually
people come out the other sidefeeling a lot better and so so
it kind of targets it.
There's a physiologic basis tothat as well.
You know there's a lot ofstudies around.
(23:56):
You know the serotoninreceptors that it works on and
brain imaging showing how ithelps different parts of the
brain communicate to other partsof the brain on the spiritual
level.
So what people often senseinside a journey is a connection
to something greater thanthemselves, because there are
(24:17):
certain types of pain thatsometimes we just cannot bear
alone.
Like you said there's.
We need we need not onlysupport from other people.
We need, like a sacredcontainer that can hold some of
the suffering, and sometimes wejust need a connection to
something bigger than ourselves,whatever we want to call it.
In 12-step people call thathigher power, or you can even
(24:39):
say even just your inner wisdom,or the universe, whatever you
want to call that, whateverthat's bigger than your own,
maybe more ego-based, limitedperception of who you are, and
so within a psychedelic journey,people often feel that
connection or they feel likesomething is guiding them.
Some people see it as like,maybe God, you know, sometimes
(25:03):
they're coming from that beliefsystem, sometimes they're
connected to, like you know, areally much better, more
confident, competent version ofthemselves, or sometimes it's a
relative, someone comforting,who's like taking them through
that journey as a guide.
And so I work, you know, on atrial currently using psilocybin
(25:24):
to treat existential distressin people with advanced cancer.
And you know, often we aretalking a lot about people's
fears of dying, because that'ssort of the criteria to get
people in the study, like, areyou really struggling with that?
So of course the conversationsa lot of them do center around
that kind of stuff.
And so what I've seenanecdotally multiple times in
(25:46):
these journeys is that peoplewill face their fears of death
in the journey itself.
And it could be differentversions of that.
It could be as extreme as theyliterally believe they're dying
right now, like on the couch,even though we all know they're
physically safe, but they reallybelieve they're dying.
Or their fear manifests inother, more metaphoric ways, but
(26:06):
they're feeling it.
But then usually the next day,if they go through that, they
usually feel like much, muchbetter.
It's almost like the fear hasbeen cleared away or something
like that.
And so that's another exampleof healing where, instead of
numbing a symptom, what you'redoing, you're bringing it forth
so you can work through it sothat it could be kind of fully
(26:29):
released.
So that's like one way thatI've seen psychedelics work yeah
.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I learned a lot today , so I appreciate that.
I think it's a very interesting.
You know, I love thespirituality part of it and I
love how that like kind of comestogether.
You know it, it, it totally.
Yeah.
Yeah, I learned a lot.
Evie, I know you have somethingto say.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Well, I was listening to you talk, xiaojin, picturing
you being really the pivotmaster in this ability to hold
space for other people whilethey're going through their own
pivots.
You know whether it's someonewho is, you know, within a
journey and they're, you know,having a massive experience, or
(27:19):
it's someone you're treatingmore traditionally.
You know, here you are beingthe, being trained to be the,
you know, that sacred containerso that people can have these
descent journeys, and that'sreally cool.
I really wanted to presencethat because I mean, that's not,
you know that, that's not easy.
That must be really you knowthat's a that's a big story for
(27:42):
you.
So I'm curious if you'retapping into your own
spirituality to take us back tothe beginning, your own, you
know spiritual opening and thatpivot, and tell us how it's been
a step forward for you.
And I'm particularly curious interms of how you use that
opening and your ownspirituality to help, you know,
(28:05):
resource yourself as you keepshowing up for people while
they're going through something.
You know that can be asdifficult as what you described
as existential distress.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, thank you for that question.
Well, you know everything I'mtalking about in terms of like.
How do you deal with challengesthat?
You know it applies to me asmuch as it does to my clients.
You know, for me, I also haveto keep in mind like there is
meaning through whateversuffering that I'm going through
.
And so, yeah, I do feel likehaving a spiritual you know
(28:45):
perspective definitely helpswith resourcing, connecting to
something bigger than myself.
So, also breaking out of theparadigm that I was trained in
of the doctor being like theexpert and the authority and
then the patient being like thispassive receiver of like okay,
I've got to do what the doctorsays but rather going back into
that like birth metaphor, whereI'm more like the midwife and
I'm here to support a processthat's already naturally
happening for the other person.
(29:06):
But how can I support that?
So it's not just on me and justbased on my skills and whatever
wisdom I have, but it's alsolike how do I connect them to
their inner wisdom?
There's that faith thateveryone has that inside of
themselves, no matter what theymight look like on the outside,
and how do I give them as muchpower as possible back to them?
So it's not like they're askingme to save them or heal them or
(29:27):
something.
It's like how do we facilitate anatural healing process?
That's probably one of thebigger shifts for me in terms of
orienting on how to like treatpeople or hold space with people
.
But I also like what youbrought up, even about how we
don't have those containers orrituals for, you know, helping
people move through suffering inthis day and age and I think
(29:49):
that's a big root of a lot ofour suffering to that
disconnection we feel, not onlyfrom parts of ourselves but each
other, community and nature,and maybe even our ancestors,
and how, maybe you know.
I wonder if facilitating moreconnection to that can help
everyone feel more resourced tohold space for themselves and
(30:10):
for people that they love.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, no, thank you so much.
You gave us so much to thinkabout.
Um, it was an honor, a pleasureto have you here.
Um, like I said, you reallymade me think and you know this
is such an important topic,especially, you know, during
mental health awareness month,and things we often need to
(30:31):
think about, and you know, bethere for others and figure out.
You know some of our own thingssometimes and you know it's
taking that space, it's taking astep back, it's going going
further or, you know, thinkingabout something else or whatever
that looks like.
So, evie, do you have any finalthoughts?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
whatever that looks like.
So, evie, do you have any finalthoughts?
I love the description ofspirituality that you gave at
the beginning.
I'm remembering when we met,you know, we were doing, as part
of the retreat work, a lot ofexercises that had to do with
mindfulness, mind-body-breathconnection, and we would
meditate together and do someother practices, and then we
(31:16):
would have free time duringwhich we could go to the beach,
and I remember standing therewith my feet in the water and
looking at the waves and thentaking a swim and then hearing
the sound of the Mediterraneanand just feeling like, wow,
there it is the awe, you know.
So, yes, one way to access itwas through dedicated practice
(31:41):
and, you know, dropping in andI'm using a funny voice right
now, I don't mean to be mockingit that was immensely beautiful
too.
But then there was this otheravenue, where I don't know what
it is that I'm calling it, whereI don't know what it is that
I'm calling it, but it's not anit, it's an everything, and it
was just so beautiful to be inthat space of the awe.
You know, and thank you forbringing some of that awe here
(32:04):
through this episode for us.
You're clearly, you knowsomeone we could talk to for a
long time about so manydifferent topics and I hope we
do continue the conversation andif our listeners are interested
in learning more about you,they can also find you online.
I know you have an activeLinkedIn profile.
We'll link to that in our shownotes, anything else.
(32:25):
Shaujah from you as we saygoodbye.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
No, it's been such an honor and a pleasure to be here
and thank you for theopportunity to like talk about
these topics with you guys.
So thank you, yeah, yes thankyou so much today.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Thank you, ivana.
Thank you to all our listenerstoday.
We were happy to have you here,as we always are, so we will
see you in the next episodewe'll be out in two weeks and in
the meantime, if you have apivot step into it,
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