Dr. Patrick Guarnieri, a Vietnam combat veteran, recalls the moment in 2022 when watching Ukraine's invasion triggered memories of facing Russian-made weapons in Vietnam. Something deep within him knew he had to help. What began as a mission to offer de-escalation training has evolved into a remarkable humanitarian effort spanning fifteen deployments to Ukraine's war zone – all funded from his own pocket.
TO DONATE TO HELP FUND THESE HUMANITARIAN EFFORTS GO TO HERE:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/9rfn4b-support-ukraine-donate-to-deescalation-training?utm_campaign=p_lico+share-sheet&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_source=customer
With four medals from the Ukrainian military, Guarnieri has become a trusted figure on the frontlines. His team trains soldiers in leadership skills, counsels survivors of war trauma, and builds support networks for women who suffered sexual violence as prisoners of war. His firsthand accounts paint a vivid picture of a conflict more brutal and complex than what reaches American news broadcasts.
The war has transformed dramatically over Guarnieri's three years of deployments. What began with conventional tactics has evolved into a high-tech drone war where being visible from above means near-certain death. He describes sleeping in rat-infested areas near decomposing bodies, working through pneumonia, and facing direct missile strikes on locations where he had just been staying. Yet despite these horrors, he speaks most passionately about the extraordinary Ukrainian resilience he witnesses daily.
From an 82-year-old former English teacher declaring his willingness to fight, to soldiers returning to battle despite multiple serious wounds, Guarnieri shares stories of ordinary Ukrainians making extraordinary sacrifices. When asked why he continues these dangerous missions, his answer reveals the profound impact of witnessing such courage: "If you don't feel something when you're among them, I don't know what kind of person you'd be that you aren't touched by this and feel a sense of loyalty, commitment that you should sacrifice more."
As Russians slowly advance and Ukraine faces a critical personnel shortage, Guarnieri believes the conflict's outcome may ultimately depend on economics – Russia's ability to sustain war costs versus international support for Ukraine. His message this Memorial Day resonates with urgency: "Ukraine goes, Poland could be next... Putin is not somebody to take lightly." Connect with the Foreign Directorate through NDTC Center to support their vital humanitarian work.
www.stephanpiscanopodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, guys.
Thank you so much and welcome.
This is Stephan Piscano, withthe Stephan Piscano podcast, and
happy Memorial Day 2025.
It's a blessing to have youwith us on this special day and,
as we celebrate Memorial Day, Iam joined by an incredibly
special guest.
His name is Dr Patrick Garnieri.
(00:21):
He is a Vietnam combat veteran.
He has written legislation forthe United States government and
most recently, he has beendeploying on his own dime, own
expense, to Ukraine.
So we're going to do a specialhere, live from the Ukraine
front.
(00:41):
We're going to celebrateeverything that he is doing to
try to provide aid for the bravemen and women on the ground
there.
He's going to give us updateson what's really going on and
we're going to do an episodeunlike one we've ever done
before.
So, patrick, without further ado, thank you, sir, very much for
joining us.
Thank you for having me, and Iwant to take it back before we
(01:01):
get into the nuts and bolts ofeverything that's going on in
Ukraine right now, because Iknow you've got some incredible
stories that we've talked aboutprivately that I hope I can get
you to share with my audiencetoday about what you've seen and
experienced literally on thefront lines of war there very
(01:26):
beginning, because I remembertalking to you on the phone in,
I guess, 2022, right when thiswar broke out, and I remember
you telling me that you just hadto do something.
You felt like you were calledto help in some way, and a lot
of us, including me, felt thatway, but not a lot of people
actually did anything about it.
So can you take me back to thatmoment and what your initial
emotions were when you saweverything that was going on
(01:47):
over there and why you felt likeyou needed to be involved and
help however you could?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Sure.
When I saw the war unfolding itjust seemed so unjust that a
country that was innocent wasbeing invaded by the Russian
Federation.
My experience was having servedin Vietnam as a combat veteran
and being shot at by the NorthVietnamese using Russian-made
(02:14):
weapons.
It had a special place in myheart for the Ukrainian people
and I followed it very closely.
And and I followed it veryclosely Because we run an NGO in
the United States we're thelargest provider of law
enforcement de-escalationtraining in the world.
I felt maybe those servicescould be useful because they're
(02:37):
military checkpoints, bordersecurity issues, other issues in
reoccupied territories.
After the Russians are pushedout.
I thought maybe some of thoseservices would be helpful.
The issue that I was goingthrough was that it's very hard
to get over there.
It's not easy.
You have to be affiliated withanother organization,
(02:57):
particularly in the beginning ofthe war, and it was hard to
find an organization which wouldsponsor or help you or you
could companion or partner withto get into the country.
They wanted and needed moneyunless you had certain
specialized skills.
At the time the other NGOsdidn't recognize de-escalation
(03:21):
as a critical skill, recognizede-escalation as a critical
skill, and I found that out whenI got there for the first time
the end of summer, beginning offall, another NGO listened to me
and my story and what I had tooffer and wanted me to go with
them.
They set everything up so thatI would have meetings throughout
(03:43):
with fire, police, military,the churches which are very
strong over there and others inthe government and we were very
well received.
In fact, we were shocked andsurprised at how well we were
received and what the demand wasfor what we had to offer.
(04:03):
We were received and what thedemand was for what we had to
offer.
I was told before I went overthere that one of the most
critical factors that they'redealing with is post-traumatic
stress disorder, that everybodyhas it.
You don't have to be a soldieror a veteran, it's the entire
civilian population.
So they asked if we could put apackage together and make a
(04:26):
presentation Back in the 80s infact, I was in law school at the
time I started working for theVeterans Administration as a
combat readjustment counselorand we dealt primarily with
post-traumatic stress disorder.
I studied it, I learned it whenI practiced law.
I helped people get militaryretirements based on PTSD.
(04:48):
I helped them get defense andcriminal cases for PTSD, a
number of other things, veteransbenefits and so I had some 40
years experience.
In fact, in 2018, presidentTrump signed a law for 100
percent disabled veterans that Ithat I wrote.
(05:10):
It was originally introduced asHR 164 through Congressman
Bellaracus, gus Bellaracus, andwe lobbied about four years for
that and then he signed that.
So I had 40 years of experienceworking with PTSD and veterans
issues.
So when I went over there, I waswell received because they
(05:32):
wanted primarily that, and westarted training people to
become peer counselors.
We couldn't certify people astherapists, but as peer
counselors.
Most of the Ukrainians havingseen war been involved either as
a civilian, a volunteer or as asoldier, it was deemed very
(05:53):
valuable.
We trained oh, probably 350PTSD counselors and we reported.
Every time we went over andcame back, we reported to the
State Department.
They were really pleased thatwe were doing that and then
evolved from there into otherthings.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
So you have, obviously, the vast experience
you were a combat veteran inVietnam, as you mentioned.
You're a lawyer.
You've got all this decades anddecades of experience with
post-traumatic stress and allthat.
But when it comes to Ukraine,even though you're much more
connected than the averageperson would be and you have a
blueprint to know how to do it,you pretty much had to build all
of this from scratch on theUkraine side right, you really
(06:32):
had to start from the bottom andwork your way up.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
We didn't know if they'd accept anything, want
anything, need anything.
They had the Russians breathingdown their throat, attacking
them every day on numerousfronts.
They'd already occupied about18% of the country.
But we gave presentations overtwo days about 150 people.
In each presentation there weresoldiers, chaplains, social
(07:00):
workers, psychologists, medicaldoctors, firemen, people from
law enforcement, and we werejust met with open arms.
There was more demand for moreproducts that I wasn't ready to
deliver at the time and westarted developing programs and
it evolved into what it is today, which is a somewhat different
(07:24):
looking animal.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Well, yeah, now, yeah , and you've gotten I believe is
it four medals now from theUkrainian military.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, I've been awarded some decorations and
citations for a lot of the workI did, mostly on the front.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well, and to me and I've told you this privately,
but I want to say it publiclytoo I think it's just one of the
most incredible displays of aperson's will that I've ever
seen in any walk of life,whether it's business or
humanitarian efforts or anythingelse.
That you saw this, you knew youcould do it, but you had to
(08:00):
figure out how to do it and youjust did it.
You just went in and you builtall this in a relatively short
period of time.
And now here we are, three plusyears later or so, and I
believe you've deployed toUkraine is it?
15 times now, is that?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I'm about to do the 15th deployment.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, so what was it like the first time that you
touched down and you go throughthat process of getting into the
country number one and you'remeeting with the officials
you're meeting with and you'retrying to find your placement
there and how you can be ofservice?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Fortunately I went with another NGO and the
president of that organizationkind of working on the front
bringing supplies into thetroops, a number of other
functions.
But no, in the beginning Ididn't really know what I was
doing or where I was going andwhere I'd be the next day.
(09:25):
There's a lot of secrecy too.
You often aren't told whatyou're going to do until hours
before the evening before, forsecurity reasons.
So it was very helpful thatSean Sullivan got me in there
and showed me the ropes thefirst couple times and even
brought me to the front where itwas pretty tense.
(09:45):
But it was just very helpful.
And then it evolved intoprobably half of my work is on
the front and the rest of thetime in other bases and other
locations with a strong militaryfocus now.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Well, and now you've been every time you go.
My understanding is you getdeeper in and more involved and
more engaged with the militaryand on the ground, and and I
mean you're you're givingspeeches to troops, right, and
you're training, you're trainingthe frontline troop.
You're, you're in it to thefullest extent.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Well, we're in charge of military leadership for the
Army right now and anyde-escalation that we deliver
for the police military, becauseunder martial law police and
military are kind of meldedtogether.
We kind of run that, we're incharge of that, we're the go-to
guys and our team brings thoseservices.
(10:43):
And we still do PTSD training.
We're working with rape victimsMany of the women who were
prisoners of war were rapednumerous times frequently and
we're working on a center andsome therapies and pulling a
coalition together to get thatdone, as well as making trips to
(11:05):
the front to help service theneeds of the soldiers out there
in several locations.
So we do a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Gosh well and that's the thing a lot of people
probably don't realize is thatpeople in their 40s and 50s if
you don't remember World War II,we're used to wars being fought
overseas.
You know, even in wars thatwe're involved in, it's a
different kind of war whenthey're literally trying to take
the land that you live on andit kind of makes everybody's a
soldier in a way.
Right, I mean, everybody'sdealing with PTSD to some extent
(11:39):
, like you said.
Yep, everybody.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Soldiers, civilians, veterans, children they're all
involved.
We did a leadership training inKiev, the capital, at a
military academy and thestudents were 15, 16, and 17
years old.
These are kids.
Everybody's got to look forwardto a mobilization at some point
in time.
They're taking people out ofbanks, employees out of banks.
(12:05):
A bus driver in Lviv was takenright off a bus with like 35
passengers and mobilized rightthen and there.
It took a few hours before theygot another driver in.
So everybody is poised to go.
Many of them don't want to gobecause the death rate is so
high.
On the front it's verydifficult and the Russians are
(12:30):
advancing.
It's slow, but they'readvancing.
Even though it's a drone war,they're still boots on the
ground, they're taking territoryand the casualty rate is
exceedingly high.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, and I mean it says something about the will of
the Ukrainian people, because alot of people thought this war
would last.
Well, the famous quote was twoweeks right, I think was
Zelensky said somebody I don'tknow if it was Putin or who said
that.
But and here we are, three plusyears later, and they're still
fighting honorably.
(13:10):
Yeah, putin said 72 hours.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
That's right, because of the will of the Ukrainian
people.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yes, sir, and I know there's only so many things that
you can talk about, and I don'twant to make it too somber of a
mood here, because I reallywant to celebrate the will of
the Ukrainian people and whatyou're doing, continue to do.
But I know you've seen somepretty hard things over there.
(13:39):
I mean, what can you share withus about some of the things
that you've had to witness onthe ground?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well, Sean Sullivan, the person who brought me in the
first time, brought me back mysecond deployment, still in 2022
.
And we went to Avdivka, whichhas now been taken over by the
Russians.
You can't go in there.
We went in and we broughtsupplies.
(14:08):
We brought material for thetroops, supplies for the
civilians who were livingunderground.
To the east, we had theRussians shooting over the top
of us, and to the west, we hadthe Ukrainians shooting at the
Russians over the top of us.
And during the day, a Russiandrone spotted us, followed us.
(14:30):
There were four vehicles Onewas from Samaritan's Purse and
eventually they had us zeroed inand over the course of about 20
minutes, they started sendingmissiles in, one after another
until they were almost right ontop of us and we had to leave.
And now the city of Evdivkawhich was 30,000, is now held by
(14:53):
the Russians.
That was the first of a seriesof places that I'd been which
became Russian-held.
I was in Bakhmut.
A fight that went on almost ayear got taken over by the
Russians, and some other smallercities close by Chassivyar,
(15:14):
down toward Zaporizhia.
In that area and others and ourpeople, the people that we
worked intimately with and wereconsidered team members.
We lost several of those fiveor six of those over the course
of three years.
But many many times we're warnedwith the latest in drone
(15:39):
technology, drone defense.
It's one of the first things wedo on each of the deployments
that we make.
They tell us what to watch outfor, how we may be able to
defend ourselves, if at all, andwhere to go or not to go.
Some places we have to goregardless, but we've had to
(16:00):
sleep in areas where you have tosleep, sitting up, because
there are rats that have beenthere because of decomposing
soldiers that have been killed,and we've had to sleep outside
in the winter in tents.
So not only do you have to dealwith the enemy, but sometimes
(16:20):
the environment, which can bedifficult and trying, and
illness is a frequent problem.
I've made 14 deployments andsix deployments.
I came back really sick twicewith pneumonia, and it's usually
because I'm not sleeping inharsh conditions.
(16:43):
Lack of sleep is probably thebiggest thing and for the team
that I work with and run to acertain extent, many times, with
the travel and the conditions,you just can't sleep.
It's something you can't do andyou may go on a two-week period
(17:03):
of time.
You may go five days withoutsleep.
Eventually your immune systembreaks down and you get sick.
Hopefully it's not so seriousthat you're hospitalized.
You've got to deal with theenemy, the drones.
There are frequent attacks.
Even if you're in the capitalwith millions of people living
(17:24):
there, it takes an hour and ahalf to drive from one side to
the other.
There's still attacks.
People are dying.
This past week they had thelargest attack since the war
started.
More drones and missiles camein than any other point during
the war.
And you just have to deal withit.
Understand how to keep yourselfsafe and the people around you.
(17:46):
And the farther you go to theeast, the worse it gets.
The conditions are worse, bothliving conditions and the
frequency of attacks.
You just have to be prepared,know who to rely on.
How to travel, how to travelsafe, smart timing.
How to travel, how to travelsafe, smart timing.
Types of vehicles, places tostay.
(18:07):
I was I think it was indeployment 13.
I was near Carivari and theyput me in a refugee camp because
they said it was the safest andI really didn't like the
conditions at all.
So I said take me to a hotel.
The next day I stayed in ahotel, excuse me, and it was
(18:31):
three or four days later.
The hotel took a direct hit.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
It's still closed.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Once later it's still closed.
Took a direct hit and it's justthat dangerous, especially
public conveyances, hotels,meeting places, and if they see
you're there they'll target you.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
They have spotters, the Russians have spotters yeah,
and I would imagine you're kindof a target to some extent,
right, Because you're anAmerican coming over making an
impact.
I would imagine that you're ontheir radar, I would assume.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, we're considered high-value targets
when we go over there,especially with what I do,
because we have groups of peoplecome to get trained or to
facilitate things or planningsessions, not so much in the
capital or other major citieslike Lviv or Kharkiv even
Kharkiv actually, because it'sso close to Russia, it's like 20
miles from Russia but in theother locations on the front, if
(19:31):
you meet, the Russian spotterswill see and you've only got a
few hours before you have tofinish up and get out of there.
They're not going to send amissile in.
That costs a quarter milliondollars if there are two or
three people in a facility, butif they see 30 people or 40
(19:52):
people and high value targetslike police officers or officers
in the military, you're a primetarget and they warn you.
First of all, they tell you atthe last minute when the meeting
is going to take place or thetraining or whatever it may be,
and then you get transported in,told how much time you have
(20:14):
before it's going to be toodangerous.
I did a training in aparticular location, which I'll
leave the name out just forsecurity reasons, and we were
told the night before.
I wasn't told when I was goingto be picked up.
Just a surprise.
I was just told to be ready inthe morning, went in.
We got an hour into it, therewas an attack.
(20:36):
We had to go into the basement.
Three hours later we hadanother attack.
They had zeroed in on ourposition and we were told we had
to leave the vicinity and therewere about 100 of us that had
to just literally run and thespotter called it off.
(20:56):
Nobody in the building, nosense in wasting a few hundred
thousand dollars on a weapon.
An hour later we're back in thebuilding.
Same thing happened again.
Another close call.
We had to run and get out ofthere and they called off the
attack.
But they did use the missileselsewhere, in that particular
(21:18):
general vicinity where therewere people, and the attacks
were successful.
So you're constantlystrategizing and being warned
and fortunately the intelligenceis good and the US intelligence
agencies supply a lot ofinformation that's very valuable
that we use and it's veryeffective and I'll just leave it
(21:42):
at that.
Very effective and I'll justleave it at that.
They've helped me and a lot ofthe work that I do become
possible because of knowingwho's where and who's watching,
what and and when things mighthappen to keep us safe.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah Well, and it's been interesting too for me
knowing you on a personal leveland getting to hear a little bit
about what you've experiencedover there.
And I'm just speaking formyself here, so feel free to
correct me if I'm wrong, but itfeels like a lot of the stuff.
For whatever reason, that'sactually going on on the ground
(22:18):
over there doesn't really getfully covered by the national
media.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Absolutely.
It's a different animal overthere On the news and I watch it
when I'm in the United Statesit's a watered-down version.
Attacks may happen in certaincities.
They'll name the location,they'll show something burning,
but they don't realize thatpeople go out there during those
attacks men, women, civiliansand soldiers and first
(22:51):
responders and they're givenintelligence as to what the
possibility of another attack is, whether they have to go in or
not, what they have to do andthey're in there putting out
fires, getting attacked again,picking up body parts, putting
people in body bags over days,moving.
(23:14):
We had to move a body the lasttime I was there at 1.30 in the
morning because it was misplaced, but there are teams of people
that I work with that do that.
We were asked once to get arefrigerator Tucker.
They had almost 1,000 bodies inthe Bakhmut area and that's
(23:35):
just part of it.
And then there's constant droneattacks.
There's a lot of facilitiesthat are doing work as we speak
and hundreds of locations inUkraine that are doing work for
the war and their civilians thatare working underground in
their homes on things that I'mnot privileged to say for
(23:57):
security reasons, and peopletaking chances and running risks
that can only be told after thewar is over, but when you're on
the ground and you see and hearthe number of people that have
a family member that's eitherdead, lost a limb or is in a
(24:19):
hospital or captured, and it'sprofound.
Everybody knows somebody who'sa friend, a relative, humble,
quiet, talking to me about whathe did and when he was going to
(24:52):
deploy again and I asked him theplaces he'd been and he
described this situation.
He pulled up his shirt.
He showed me a scar about sixinches long.
Then he showed me his chestthere was another wound there
and his shoulder another woundthere.
Different occasions, differentlocations, and each time he went
(25:12):
back to fight again wounded,disabled.
I've taught classes at basestraining and soldiers would come
and go during the breaks,limping in and out of the room
and they were just waiting forthe deployment orders to go back
to the front.
Some of the locations were onthe front, but not in the
(25:35):
immediate, what they call thezero point or the red zone,
where it's intimate with theenemy and it's just, it's sad,
it's, it's humbling, becausepeople say, oh, it's great,
look's sad, it's um, it'shumbling yeah because people,
people say, oh, it's great whatyou look, what you're doing,
it's.
It's nothing compared to whatthey go through, it's nothing
(25:56):
compared to the courage theseguys have, the sacrifices they
make.
Um, some of them are depressed,but they go out every day and
continue to fight.
I've slept outside in tentswith the soldiers a few times.
It's nothing.
They have to do it every day inthe winter with so nice outside
.
For me, it's nothing because Iget to come back to the United
(26:18):
States.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
And they're doing it, so they still have a home to go
back to.
Hopefully at the end of it all,hopefully, it's amazing the
sacrifices.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
For them it's just a way of life.
People go in their backyards.
There's pieces of shrapnel frommissiles and drones that have
been shot down and weaponry.
Daily you hear explosions,things going off.
They have to go to the sheltersand this is their way of life.
(26:51):
When you go over there a lot,you start to get used to it,
used to the sirens, used to theregimen.
The food, that's different.
It may not be as good.
Certainly the bathroomfacilities are.
They get as primitive as as youcan get when you leave the
(27:11):
major cities.
Uh, it's, it's difficult, butit's their way of life.
They live it.
They live in the cold, theylive wet, they live in fear of
their lives.
It's, it's.
It's not seen on on tv, butwhen you're on the front it's
there all the time You've got tolimit the amount of time you're
outside, not undercover, notmoving quickly.
(27:36):
And the war is changing.
Drone defense is evolving.
Every few months it'scompletely different, it's
completely changed.
The technology is advanced andthe Russians and the Ukrainians
are trying to keep pace witheach other's advancements and
innovations.
And this is life.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Puts it in perspective when we're worried
about whatever we're worriedabout here, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, knowing and keeping in your mind how to put
a tourniquet on with one hand incase your other arm is blown
off or badly wounded, and thosebriefings we get when we land in
the country on first aid are inyour mind all the front and
(28:24):
they live it.
It's not like me I come and go,they're there, they stay, and
there are always people that aretrying to do more.
And so when you come and youbring information, new training,
new methodologies from theUnited States information, new
(28:47):
training, new methodologies fromthe United States your time is
day and night.
It's usurped by them.
If you're not training all daylong or out with the troops
doing something, having to gosomewhere with them to do
something let's just put it thatway at night they've got you
and need you for information,insights, help, morale, building
(29:10):
, perspective on the UnitedStates and its position in the
world arena relative to Ukraine.
It's a lot of work, but it'snothing compared to what they go
through it's a lot of work, butit's nothing compared to what
they go through.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, well, and I wanted to ask you about that
because I know being over thereas much as you have and, I'm
sure, being inspired by whatyou've seen from these brave men
and women that are doing thisevery day too, can you talk to
me a little bit about some ofthe individual relationships
that you've built over there, orany individual people or
soldiers, or whoever it may bethat that you've been inspired
(29:52):
by?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
well, I've met people at so many different levels
whether it was political,military or or volunteers that
go in and out of the front, andit's you're just so impressed by
what people do.
My friend, victor um, who I tryto see every time I go over
(30:13):
there and work with he goes inand out of the front every day
he was white.
Yeah, every day he's beenwounded numerous times.
People want to bring materialsinto the front but they're
afraid he goes and brings theirvehicle because many times he
(30:34):
doesn't have a vehicle becauseit's been destroyed and he'll
bring their vehicle back.
Full of bullet holes, gosh, andit's perpetual.
Sometimes he has to.
When the floods took place inZaporizhia, he had to duck
underwater when they wereshooting at him and one time he
came up and he got around, hit abuilding behind him and the
(31:00):
shrapnel came back and cut hishead open.
There's actually a video ofthat cut his head open.
There's actually a video ofthat.
He has just done so many things.
So many times had tanks shootat him when he runs from
building to building trying todeliver supplies in Herson, and
(31:20):
it's, it's like a movie for ushere, you know, but it's real
life for them over there.
Yeah, it's amazing what he goesthrough and yet he's got a sense
of humor.
These guys will do anything.
The people I work with on thefront, the soldiers, and even my
friend Victor, they'll doanything.
There's nothing they're notafraid to do, and actually their
(31:47):
families too.
It just runs in the extendedfamily Grandmothers, mothers,
wife many of them have suchdeeds of heroism that they
engage in on a daily basis.
And there are other people Imean we've had people, for
(32:08):
instance, in the church that Ifrequently stay in and work from
, because I always have afacility when I need to train
people or have meetings.
It's like on call anytime Ineed it.
They send people to the frontonce or twice a week and I've
seen, I've ridden with themthere's some difficult areas,
(32:32):
let's just put it that way andseen videos of them and what
they've done.
One fellow his name is Yuri wentout once to Kherson.
He didn't come back.
He was trying to rescue somepeople brought supplies out, was
bringing people back out and hestayed because the vehicle was
full.
He stayed and a missile came inand took him out, and I was
(32:55):
having lunch with BishopRaczczynski at the church when
we got the call.
But Yuri had just gotten killedby a missile and three kids,
veteran himself.
These are the heroes that arejust great.
Guy was such a sweet, kind manbut just volunteered and would
(33:19):
take all the risks that otherpeople are frequently afraid to
take, and he paid for it withhis life.
Frequently afraid to take, andhe paid for it with his life.
And there are just so manyothers that have been working
hard, paying the price, and someof them it doesn't matter what
(33:39):
they have to do, they're justgoing to say yes and go.
And then again, in all honesty,there are those that really
don't want to go and they don'twant to serve for good reason.
The death rate is so high.
I spoke to a commander inBakhmut.
I was in Bakhmut about twoyears ago and one of the
(34:01):
commanders telling me how muchhe hates his job.
And he started with 200 men.
He was down to 60 in aboutseven months, wow, and he just
hated what he did.
But he said I can't stop, Ican't quit, it's what I do.
And then again, when you're outthere with those guys, it's a
(34:26):
brotherhood you share so muchbecause you're there and for the
same reason, when I go on, forthe same reason that they're
there just to help out, whateverit takes.
Vehicle and going through holesthat were made by artillery
(34:47):
shells or rockets and justdriving at breakneck speed and
the music's on full blast andyou're smashing your head
against the ceiling andeverybody's singing and trying
to go through cornfields toavoid the mines and people are
(35:08):
happy and waiting to get a warmmeal and it's a brotherhood and
a camaraderie that it's justbeyond compare.
You can't replace it.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
You really can't replicate that any other way,
can you?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
No, last experience by me in Vietnam, way, can you?
Oh, last experience by me inVietnam, and I look forward to
seeing those folks mostly men,but women too that are just,
they'll do anything, anythingfor their country.
And I was riding in from Polandand I'd just gone Lviv and I
(35:49):
was on my way to Kiev.
It was about a 10-hour ride.
There was a guy in front of meand let's see, we're facing each
other and he told me he was 82years old.
He'd been an English teacherand he said that I'm old, I'm
(36:15):
tired and I'm weak, but if I sawa Russian soldier right now I
would do my best to kill him.
And it's like good God, youknow, the guy's 82 years old and
he has this fighting spirit.
And what have we got tocomplain about when you have
people like that that arewilling to do so much for their
country?
Yeah, pardon me for using suchstrong language and words, but
(36:41):
that's how it is over.
That's how people talk, even inthe religious institutions, the
churches and synagogues.
It's a struggle to live and thecost is born because of Russian
aggression, and there's noother way to express it.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Yeah, no, I'm thankful that you are.
(37:28):
Yeah, no, I'm thankful that youare.
And I'm thankful you're sharingit with with me and my audience
, because I think it's important, because partially because it's
really not covered to the fullextent on the on the national
news and partially because it'seasy for us in America, here
with the cozy cushy lifestylesthat a lot of us have to tune it
out or make it political.
But at the end of the day,these are real human beings and
this is real life and death andpeople aren't hearing it
anywhere else, so they need toknow what's going on, because
everybody can support protectinghuman life and what they're
going through.
I wanted to ask you this isprobably a good time to do it,
(37:51):
but how does this compare toyour experience with Vietnam?
Because as I listen to you talkand I'm just thinking, and you
mentioned even, you know,obviously we had a draft at that
time here in our country andthey're pulling people in
everywhere they can over thereand there's a lot of
similarities, it seems like.
But how does it compare for youwith your two experiences?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, in Vietnam the Americans supported the war
excuse me, the American militarysupported the war with arms,
ammunition, food supplies,logistics.
With arms, ammunition, foodsupplies, logistics, everything
you needed to prosecute that war.
Over there it's a hand-to-mouthsituation where they're
(38:35):
struggling for everything theyget.
When I bring medical suppliesover, it's a gift from God.
I brought a couple laptops overthe last time I was there.
They needed them for planninglogistics, drone training.
(39:00):
It's not like the United Stateswhere the support is there, an
unlimited supply of materials,and over there it's highly
dependent on the rest of theworld, on Europe and the United
States, the Western countries.
When I'm there and they seeUnited States, see that my
(39:20):
uniform here, which I wear whenI'm over there every day If I
didn't wear a uniform I'd be theonly person on the bases and
facilities I go to that wasn'tin uniform they say we see the
United States.
When we see you in that uniform, we feel we have hope that
America's here, we have somesupport and what they do is give
(39:44):
you everything they've got.
If you're on a train movingsomewhere in the country or on
your way in, they'll go intotheir suitcases and take gifts
out their food, their drinks,everything.
They'll try to buy things foryou, pay for things for you,
because of the appreciation theyhave, because they don't have
the assistance and support thatwe had in Vietnam.
(40:06):
Everything was there if youwanted it Ammunition supplies,
food, everything you needed.
So big sense of gratitude andfor me I just say listen, please
don't thank me.
This is a privilege to be hereamong people like you, and I am
(40:28):
one with you.
You're the reason I come.
They appreciate it so much.
Soldiers will take patches off.
This patch here came from aunit, one of the last units that
I served with over there Wow,last units that I served with
over there A few weeks ago.
They take pieces of theiruniform, patches, some of the
(40:53):
weaponry, small weapons, and myhome is full of gifts and pieces
of their life that show theirappreciation.
They'll do paintings.
They'll have their family knitsomething, give you clothing,
(41:16):
anything to show how much theyappreciate with the little bit
that they have.
These people are poor.
I pay translators about $100 aday and that's like three days'
pay.
Yeah, $100 a day is like threedays' pay and they're not
(41:38):
wealthy.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
They need money, support material and I was going
to bring that up up too,because it's kind of funny.
I was going to bring it upearlier in the conversation that
a lot of people would watchthis and wonder why, why are you
doing this?
You know and they don't evenknow too yet, because I haven't
(42:00):
brought it up but you're payingon your own dime for most of
these, if not all of these.
I know there's some smalldonations and now you've got the
affiliation with the Departmentof Defense, but these have
pretty much all been on your owndime.
So you're paying money to goover there.
A lot of people would say whywould you do this?
But the cool thing is, I think,just listening to you talk the
(42:21):
last 20, 30 minutes here, it'spretty obvious why you're doing
it.
You can see how much you care.
You can see how connected to ityou are and to helping these
people.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
You know, these people sometimes will try to
have a little celebration in theevening with music and food and
they speak about their ownexperiences and it's so
heart-wrenching that if youdon't feel something when you're
among them, I don't know whatkind of person you'd be that you
(42:58):
aren't touched by this and feela sense of loyalty, commitment
that you should sacrifice more,that you aren't doing enough,
and if you aren't touched bythat, there's something wrong
with you.
It's a matter of going over forthe right reason and
experiencing it.
And what they're going throughto save their country, their
(43:19):
family and the losses they'vetaken are just incredible, and
if it doesn't affect somebodyand make them want to come back
and do more, and many people goover there for that reason.
They want to be a part of thegood fight, participate in the
(43:43):
sacrifices, whether it's forreligious or moral or personal
reasons.
The people that I work with aregreat people that just feel a
sense of commitment.
People that just feel a senseof commitment and I can't say
enough about them men and womenthat go over and do this.
Not just the Ukraine.
(44:04):
I'm talking about the peoplefrom Western Europe that come in
and don't get much or anythingand have to pay, like me, to do
it, to make sure it gets done.
And listen, I have people in myorganization here in the United
States that say I'm not goingto donate any money and I'm not
(44:24):
going.
I say thank you for telling meYou're honest.
I can understand why youwouldn't want to go.
It's risky and can be expensive.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
I keep teasing you but I can't.
This might be our publicopportunity to pitch Kelly on
letting me go with you, but I'mkind of kidding Anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Well, hopefully at some point in time she'll say
give you the nod and let you go.
There's certainly a lot ofareas that are relatively safe,
but you can still contribute alot.
Places near the border withPoland, lviv, major city they
need help.
The people get deployed FromLviv, go to the front, come back
(45:07):
.
They need services andCounseling, therapy, health.
As I indicated, we're buildinga rape center for women.
We're getting those servicesestablished.
It's in a safe area, which itshould be.
Obviously there are refugeecenter for children, beautiful
(45:30):
facilities that are being builtand worked on, so the kids who
suffered or lost their familymembers or parents will have a
place to go.
Not all of the young peoplehave gone to other countries.
Many of them are still there,and so there's a lot that can be
done in the country andcertainly medical services as
(45:53):
well as psychological stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Well, I'll just say this for myself, because you
literally haven't brought iteven up to me and we haven't
talked about it because I didn'tbring it up either.
But I'm just going to say formy audience here I'm going to
find a way.
I don't even know if a linkexists right now, but we'll try
to create one.
If it doesn't, if you'd like tosupport these efforts, I can't
(46:18):
imagine why you wouldn't.
This is an American soldierthat I'm talking to here, a
combat veteran that fought forour country, who's now in the
depths with this war in Ukraineand providing aid and spending
money and time and putting hisown life at risk to do so.
I think the very least that wecan do is contribute to that.
(46:38):
If we're in a position, we'reable to do so.
So think the very least that wecan do is contribute to that.
If we're in a position, we'reable to do so.
So that's not why we're doingthis, but that's just Stefan
Piscano saying if you're in aposition to support, I'll put
the link up, and I hope thatmany of my network do, because,
again, I understand the war issomewhat gotten politicized here
, but these are real humanbeings that are dying and being
(46:59):
raped and going through watchingfamily members wounded and all
the things that Patrick'stalking about here, that they're
experiencing on a daily basis,and anything that we can do to
help with that.
I think it's a blessing to havethe opportunity to do so.
So, patrick, so talk to me.
A lot's happened and a lot'sbeen in the news the last few
(47:22):
months, even in the mainstreammedia.
What is the mood and what isthe situation on the ground
right now?
Is it getting worse in 2025?
Isn't there things improving atall?
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Battle conditions are rough and getting worse, mostly
because of drone warfare.
The technology advanced overthe last few years to the extent
that people aren't safe on thefront if they're exposed.
If they can be seen from thesky, there's a high likelihood
that themselves or theirvehicles will be attacked by a
(47:57):
drone, whether it's a kamikazeor a missile and so the
situation has gotten moreintense.
Some areas are worse thanothers.
It all depends, but theRussians are advancing.
They've taken 2% or 3 percentmore of the country since the
(48:18):
war started.
It's less a conventional war asit was in the beginning.
Technology is really really thekey, and the Russians are
making advances, which you mayread about or hear about on the
(48:38):
internet.
Youtube isn't necessarilywhat's going on on the ground,
where you may see the Russiansare taking a beating.
No, both sides are taking abeating.
The Russians may have morelosses, but the Ukrainians
aren't far behind.
Ukrainians aren't far behind.
(49:01):
One of the significantdifferences that the Russians
have a broader supply ofpersonnel that can be mobilized
than the Ukrainians.
The Ukrainians are running out.
Many of the people I serve withare already wounded wounded
badly, shouldn't be fightinganymore, have volunteered to
stay on board so that they cancontinue just because their
(49:24):
heart is in the battle.
But they're running low onpeople and the mobilization age
has been lowered recently downto 25, and they're going to go
lower and lower.
It's my understanding.
I can say that it looks likethe war isn't going to end soon,
on one hand, but on the otherhand, negotiations are underway.
(49:48):
There's talks about possibleceasefires.
They may not necessarily resultin anything strong, meaningful,
acceptable, but at least thatstarted over the last few months
.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
As far as morale is concerned about.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
a year ago there was some talk about maybe the United
States was going to cut funding.
Congress had some positionsthat were concerned about
whether the money was being usedwisely or corruption was
steering some of the supplies ormoney in other directions.
(50:28):
Certainly that happens, but theUkrainian people and soldiers
on the ground were reallyconcerned and worried as to
whether they were going to getcut off.
They got cut off by the UnitedStates.
This war is going to end fairlyquickly and not in a positive
way.
So when the Trumpadministration took over, there
(50:52):
was both hope and concern.
On the one hand, Trump is astrong person who said he could
end the war quickly.
Most of us thought that thatwould not happen, that it would
take some time.
On the other hand, Trump isconservative with spending and
(51:12):
using our military overseas,particularly wars.
So it's kind of a double-edgedsword.
The Ukrainian people areconcerned.
They're worried about whatTrump's position is going to be.
They don't trust anything Putinsays, nor do I, and in a few
(51:34):
words one could say that mostUkrainians feel they've suffered
so much and lost so muchalready that they don't want to
give up any territory.
They don't want to give uptheir territory.
They've lost too much.
That's probably the simplest,most succinct way to state the
Ukrainian position.
It's essentially what Zelensky,President Zelensky, feels as
(51:59):
well.
Putin, on the other hand, feelsthe opposite.
He feels Ukrainian is theirsand down through Kherson,
southern reaches were primarilyRussian-speaking and they should
(52:26):
be under the jurisdiction ofRussia, and it seems like that's
the least.
He'd want the subtlest war, andthat's completely unacceptable
from the Ukrainian's point ofview.
I spent some time with thechief economic advisor to
Zelensky.
(52:46):
It appears much of the war isgoing to be determined by
economics, by how long theRussians can sustain this war
with low oil prices.
The Russian needs about $60 abarrel to break even.
They're only a little above $60a barrel right now on the world
(53:09):
market.
So they're not making much moneyand they're running on a war
economy and their oil most oftheir oil is going to India and
they're dealing in rupees.
They're getting paid in rupees,which doesn't have much value
on the world market, so they'resuffering an economic pinch.
Most of their production isn'tgoing into expanding the GDP,
(53:34):
it's going into Ukraine andthey're suffering and that
decline is continuing and thelonger it goes, the better the
chances are for Ukraine.
Ukraine has outside support.
The amount of support Ukrainegets as opposed to Russia is
about 13 to 1 when you factor inall the European countries, the
Western countries, canada, theUnited States and others.
(53:56):
So the economic advantage iscertainly in favor of Ukraine,
but it's not immediate.
It takes time and Russia hasthe manpower in the short term I
guess we're going into themidterm now but Russians still
have a lot of people that theycan conscript to go in and fight
(54:18):
.
Then it just becomes.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
how many people on their side are they willing to
sacrifice for Putin's, whateverit is?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
This is it.
And on the positive side, thepeople they're conscripting
don't get much basic training Afew weeks and then they're in
the field, don't know how toconduct themselves in war and
they get killed or injured a lotsooner and are taken out of the
field.
So it's a constant turnover.
There's much more turnover ofpersonnel and people that
(54:52):
they're replaced by don't havethe experience.
People that they're replaced bydon't have the experience.
The Ukrainians have a fairlymuch more significant basic
training.
I've been in those bases, I'vehelped in the training and it's
(55:16):
more extensive than what theRussians get.
Some of the problems that theUkrainians still have are the
old Soviet style of leadership,which are trying to get rid of
so that they operate moreefficiently and morale is better
.
But by and large, ukrainianshave a little better training.
They have a slight edge intechnology because they're using
Western weapons and the dronesthey're using are slightly more
(55:37):
advanced than the Russians.
But the Russians are keepingpace, sometimes advancing beyond
the capability of theUkrainians, and the Ukrainians
have to catch up as well.
I'm fairly involved with andfamiliar with the Ukrainian
drone program and what they'redoing, and I get briefed on it
(55:58):
when I go over there.
They've given me thoseexposures as well as other
(56:22):
aspects of the war that shouldbe beyond the scope of what I
should say during this meeting.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
Well, yeah, and I think we'll probably have to
edit this out too, but you got aspecial honor on this last
deployment.
Are we allowed to discuss yoursignature?
Speaker 2 (56:41):
My signature.
Oh, we better leave that out.
Okay, I'll leave that out then Iparticipated right on the,
literally on the front line inthe red zone, and we'll have to
leave that for the history bookswhen they're written.
And this is over and it's safefor me to discuss some of my
(57:03):
other activities, because I dowork in sensitive areas and
sensitive bases with code names.
But some of it's fun.
It's not all miserable anddepressing.
We do have moments of levityand that one will have to go in
the history books for my ownsafety.
(57:24):
Fair enough, some of the thingsI did and the people around me
do frequently.
So we'll get to that in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
All right, fair enough.
Well, in closing, as we wrap uphere and we're recording this
the day before Memorial Day andI'm hoping that I can get this
live quicker than usual get itlive tomorrow on Memorial Day
because I want to salute you, myfriend, for your you know, I
guess almost 50 years of servicehere now and your continued
(57:57):
service, and then the greatpeople that are fighting in
Ukraine that we're highlightinghere today, first and foremost.
But in closing, what's yourmessage to us here on the ground
in America and what's yourmessage to everybody in Ukraine
that you're still fightingalongside of?
Speaker 2 (58:16):
Message to America is continue to support Ukraine.
The world depends on this.
Ukraine goes, poland could benext, estonia, latvia, these
other border states.
They're worried.
Europe is really worried.
Putin is not somebody to takelightly.
(58:37):
He's aggressive, he's anintelligence officer that's been
successful and we've got totake it seriously and continue
to support them.
The brave people that are doingthis now for us.
Certainly they're doing it fortheir own country as well, but
they're the bulwark that we have.
(58:58):
They're that barrier we have tofurther Russian expansion and
we need to continue to supportthem and any of the
organizations not just mine, butany of the others that are
fighting.
And to the people of Ukraine, Ipraise you, god bless you and
Slava Ukraina, which means gloryto Ukraine.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you again for doingthis, my friend.
I really appreciate it and youknow I'll just close with this
too.
Guys, if you want to getupdates on the foreign
directorate's progress thatPatrick leads and all his
efforts and what's actuallygoing on on the ground in
Ukraine, you can subscribe totheir YouTube channel, which I
believe is just the ForeignDirectorate on YouTube.
(59:42):
You can go to the website.
Can you give the website,patrick, do you mind?
Speaker 2 (59:46):
Yeah, there's a link that gets you to the Foreign
Directorate through its NDTCCenter, ndcenter, those two S's
com, nbtccentercom, and there'sa link to the International
Division.
The Forum Directorate is inthere.
If anybody wants to donate,stefan will have an
(01:00:10):
instrumentality to be able to dothat.
Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
And I'll put all these links.
Yes, sir, yeah, well, I'll putall these links in the
description here, you guys, foreverybody watching this on
youtube, and we'll put it in thepodcast links as well.
And again, I'm grateful I'vedonated a bit.
I'm going to donate some more,uh, when I get it set up to do
so today, hopefully, and uh,encourage you to join us in that
(01:00:33):
as well.
But, patrick, thank you again,have a great memorial day and
thank you for all you do thankyou, take care.
All right, guys.
Thank you so much and welcome.
This is Stephan Piscano, withthe Stephan Piscano podcast, and
happy Memorial Day 2025.
It's a blessing to have youwith us on this special day and,
as we celebrate Memorial Day, Iam joined by an incredibly
special guest.
His name is Dr Patrick Garnieri.
(00:21):
He is a Vietnam combat veteran.
He has written legislation forthe United States government and
most recently, he has beendeploying on his own dime, own
expense, to Ukraine.
So we're going to do a specialhere, live from the Ukraine
front.
(00:41):
We're going to celebrateeverything that he is doing to
try to provide aid for the bravemen and women on the ground
there.
He's going to give us updateson what's really going on and
we're going to do an episodeunlike one we've ever done
before.
So, patrick, without further ado, thank you, sir, very much for
joining us.
Thank you for having me, and Iwant to take it back before we
(01:01):
get into the nuts and bolts ofeverything that's going on in
Ukraine right now, because Iknow you've got some incredible
stories that we've talked aboutprivately that I hope I can get
you to share with my audiencetoday about what you've seen and
experienced literally on thefront lines of war there very
(01:26):
beginning, because I remembertalking to you on the phone in,
I guess, 2022, right when thiswar broke out, and I remember
you telling me that you just hadto do something.
You felt like you were calledto help in some way, and a lot
of us, including me, felt thatway, but not a lot of people
actually did anything about it.
So can you take me back to thatmoment and what your initial
emotions were when you saweverything that was going on
(01:47):
over there and why you felt likeyou needed to be involved and
help however you could?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Sure.
When I saw the war unfolding itjust seemed so unjust that a
country that was innocent wasbeing invaded by the Russian
Federation.
My experience was having servedin Vietnam as a combat veteran
and being shot at by the NorthVietnamese using Russian-made
(02:14):
weapons.
It had a special place in myheart for the Ukrainian people
and I followed it very closely.
And and I followed it veryclosely Because we run an NGO in
the United States we're thelargest provider of law
enforcement de-escalationtraining in the world.
I felt maybe those servicescould be useful because they're
(02:37):
military checkpoints, bordersecurity issues, other issues in
reoccupied territories.
After the Russians are pushedout.
I thought maybe some of thoseservices would be helpful.
The issue that I was goingthrough was that it's very hard
to get over there.
It's not easy.
You have to be affiliated withanother organization,
(02:57):
particularly in the beginning ofthe war, and it was hard to
find an organization which wouldsponsor or help you or you
could companion or partner withto get into the country.
They wanted and needed moneyunless you had certain
specialized skills.
At the time the other NGOsdidn't recognize de-escalation
(03:21):
as a critical skill, recognizede-escalation as a critical
skill, and I found that out whenI got there for the first time
the end of summer, beginning offall, another NGO listened to me
and my story and what I had tooffer and wanted me to go with
them.
They set everything up so thatI would have meetings throughout
(03:43):
with fire, police, military,the churches which are very
strong over there and others inthe government and we were very
well received.
In fact, we were shocked andsurprised at how well we were
received and what the demand wasfor what we had to offer.
(04:03):
We were received and what thedemand was for what we had to
offer.
I was told before I went overthere that one of the most
critical factors that they'redealing with is post-traumatic
stress disorder, that everybodyhas it.
You don't have to be a soldieror a veteran, it's the entire
civilian population.
So they asked if we could put apackage together and make a
(04:26):
presentation Back in the 80s infact, I was in law school at the
time I started working for theVeterans Administration as a
combat readjustment counselorand we dealt primarily with
post-traumatic stress disorder.
I studied it, I learned it whenI practiced law.
I helped people get militaryretirements based on PTSD.
(04:48):
I helped them get defense andcriminal cases for PTSD, a
number of other things, veteransbenefits and so I had some 40
years experience.
In fact, in 2018, presidentTrump signed a law for 100
percent disabled veterans that Ithat I wrote.
(05:10):
It was originally introduced asHR 164 through Congressman
Bellaracus, gus Bellaracus, andwe lobbied about four years for
that and then he signed that.
So I had 40 years of experienceworking with PTSD and veterans
issues.
So when I went over there, I waswell received because they
(05:32):
wanted primarily that, and westarted training people to
become peer counselors.
We couldn't certify people astherapists, but as peer
counselors.
Most of the Ukrainians havingseen war been involved either as
a civilian, a volunteer or as asoldier, it was deemed very
(05:53):
valuable.
We trained oh, probably 350PTSD counselors and we reported.
Every time we went over andcame back, we reported to the
State Department.
They were really pleased thatwe were doing that and then
evolved from there into otherthings.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
So you have, obviously, the vast experience
you were a combat veteran inVietnam, as you mentioned.
You're a lawyer.
You've got all this decades anddecades of experience with
post-traumatic stress and allthat.
But when it comes to Ukraine,even though you're much more
connected than the averageperson would be and you have a
blueprint to know how to do it,you pretty much had to build all
of this from scratch on theUkraine side right, you really
(06:32):
had to start from the bottom andwork your way up.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
We didn't know if they'd accept anything, want
anything, need anything.
They had the Russians breathingdown their throat, attacking
them every day on numerousfronts.
They'd already occupied about18% of the country.
But we gave presentations overtwo days about 150 people.
In each presentation there weresoldiers, chaplains, social
(07:00):
workers, psychologists, medicaldoctors, firemen, people from
law enforcement, and we werejust met with open arms.
There was more demand for moreproducts that I wasn't ready to
deliver at the time and westarted developing programs and
it evolved into what it is today, which is a somewhat different
(07:24):
looking animal.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Well, yeah, now, yeah , and you've gotten I believe is
it four medals now from theUkrainian military.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, I've been awarded some decorations and
citations for a lot of the workI did, mostly on the front.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well, and to me and I've told you this privately,
but I want to say it publiclytoo I think it's just one of the
most incredible displays of aperson's will that I've ever
seen in any walk of life,whether it's business or
humanitarian efforts or anythingelse.
That you saw this, you knew youcould do it, but you had to
(08:00):
figure out how to do it and youjust did it.
You just went in and you builtall this in a relatively short
period of time.
And now here we are, three plusyears later or so, and I
believe you've deployed toUkraine is it?
15 times now, is that?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I'm about to do the 15th deployment.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, so what was it like the first time that you
touched down and you go throughthat process of getting into the
country number one and you'remeeting with the officials
you're meeting with and you'retrying to find your placement
there and how you can be ofservice?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Fortunately I went with another NGO and the
president of that organizationkind of working on the front
bringing supplies into thetroops, a number of other
functions.
But no, in the beginning Ididn't really know what I was
doing or where I was going andwhere I'd be the next day.
(09:25):
There's a lot of secrecy too.
You often aren't told whatyou're going to do until hours
before the evening before, forsecurity reasons.
So it was very helpful thatSean Sullivan got me in there
and showed me the ropes thefirst couple times and even
brought me to the front where itwas pretty tense.
(09:45):
But it was just very helpful.
And then it evolved intoprobably half of my work is on
the front and the rest of thetime in other bases and other
locations with a strong militaryfocus now.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Well, and now you've been every time you go.
My understanding is you getdeeper in and more involved and
more engaged with the militaryand on the ground, and and I
mean you're you're givingspeeches to troops, right, and
you're training, you're trainingthe frontline troop.
You're, you're in it to thefullest extent.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Well, we're in charge of military leadership for the
Army right now and anyde-escalation that we deliver
for the police military, becauseunder martial law police and
military are kind of meldedtogether.
We kind of run that, we're incharge of that, we're the go-to
guys and our team brings thoseservices.
(10:43):
And we still do PTSD training.
We're working with rape victimsMany of the women who were
prisoners of war were rapednumerous times frequently and
we're working on a center andsome therapies and pulling a
coalition together to get thatdone, as well as making trips to
(11:05):
the front to help service theneeds of the soldiers out there
in several locations.
So we do a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Gosh well and that's the thing a lot of people
probably don't realize is thatpeople in their 40s and 50s if
you don't remember World War II,we're used to wars being fought
overseas.
You know, even in wars thatwe're involved in, it's a
different kind of war whenthey're literally trying to take
the land that you live on andit kind of makes everybody's a
soldier in a way.
Right, I mean, everybody'sdealing with PTSD to some extent
(11:39):
, like you said.
Yep, everybody.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Soldiers, civilians, veterans, children they're all
involved.
We did a leadership training inKiev, the capital, at a
military academy and thestudents were 15, 16, and 17
years old.
These are kids.
Everybody's got to look forwardto a mobilization at some point
in time.
They're taking people out ofbanks, employees out of banks.
(12:05):
A bus driver in Lviv was takenright off a bus with like 35
passengers and mobilized rightthen and there.
It took a few hours before theygot another driver in.
So everybody is poised to go.
Many of them don't want to gobecause the death rate is so
high.
On the front it's verydifficult and the Russians are
(12:30):
advancing.
It's slow, but they'readvancing.
Even though it's a drone war,they're still boots on the
ground, they're taking territoryand the casualty rate is
exceedingly high.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, and I mean it says something about the will of
the Ukrainian people, because alot of people thought this war
would last.
Well, the famous quote was twoweeks right, I think was
Zelensky said somebody I don'tknow if it was Putin or who said
that.
But and here we are, three plusyears later, and they're still
fighting honorably.
(13:10):
Yeah, putin said 72 hours.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
That's right, because of the will of the Ukrainian
people.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yes, sir, and I know there's only so many things that
you can talk about, and I don'twant to make it too somber of a
mood here, because I reallywant to celebrate the will of
the Ukrainian people and whatyou're doing, continue to do.
But I know you've seen somepretty hard things over there.
(13:39):
I mean, what can you share withus about some of the things
that you've had to witness onthe ground?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well, Sean Sullivan, the person who brought me in the
first time, brought me back mysecond deployment, still in 2022
.
And we went to Avdivka, whichhas now been taken over by the
Russians.
You can't go in there.
We went in and we broughtsupplies.
(14:08):
We brought material for thetroops, supplies for the
civilians who were livingunderground.
To the east, we had theRussians shooting over the top
of us, and to the west, we hadthe Ukrainians shooting at the
Russians over the top of us.
And during the day, a Russiandrone spotted us, followed us.
(14:30):
There were four vehicles Onewas from Samaritan's Purse and
eventually they had us zeroed inand over the course of about 20
minutes, they started sendingmissiles in, one after another
until they were almost right ontop of us and we had to leave.
And now the city of Evdivkawhich was 30,000, is now held by
(14:53):
the Russians.
That was the first of a seriesof places that I'd been which
became Russian-held.
I was in Bakhmut.
A fight that went on almost ayear got taken over by the
Russians, and some other smallercities close by Chassivyar,
(15:14):
down toward Zaporizhia.
In that area and others and ourpeople, the people that we
worked intimately with and wereconsidered team members.
We lost several of those fiveor six of those over the course
of three years.
But many many times we're warnedwith the latest in drone
(15:39):
technology, drone defense.
It's one of the first things wedo on each of the deployments
that we make.
They tell us what to watch outfor, how we may be able to
defend ourselves, if at all, andwhere to go or not to go.
Some places we have to goregardless, but we've had to
(16:00):
sleep in areas where you have tosleep, sitting up, because
there are rats that have beenthere because of decomposing
soldiers that have been killed,and we've had to sleep outside
in the winter in tents.
So not only do you have to dealwith the enemy, but sometimes
(16:20):
the environment, which can bedifficult and trying, and
illness is a frequent problem.
I've made 14 deployments andsix deployments.
I came back really sick twicewith pneumonia, and it's usually
because I'm not sleeping inharsh conditions.
(16:43):
Lack of sleep is probably thebiggest thing and for the team
that I work with and run to acertain extent, many times, with
the travel and the conditions,you just can't sleep.
It's something you can't do andyou may go on a two-week period
(17:03):
of time.
You may go five days withoutsleep.
Eventually your immune systembreaks down and you get sick.
Hopefully it's not so seriousthat you're hospitalized.
You've got to deal with theenemy, the drones.
There are frequent attacks.
Even if you're in the capitalwith millions of people living
(17:24):
there, it takes an hour and ahalf to drive from one side to
the other.
There's still attacks.
People are dying.
This past week they had thelargest attack since the war
started.
More drones and missiles camein than any other point during
the war.
And you just have to deal withit.
Understand how to keep yourselfsafe and the people around you.
(17:46):
And the farther you go to theeast, the worse it gets.
The conditions are worse, bothliving conditions and the
frequency of attacks.
You just have to be prepared,know who to rely on.
How to travel, how to travelsafe, smart timing.
How to travel, how to travelsafe, smart timing.
Types of vehicles, places tostay.
(18:07):
I was I think it was indeployment 13.
I was near Carivari and theyput me in a refugee camp because
they said it was the safest andI really didn't like the
conditions at all.
So I said take me to a hotel.
The next day I stayed in ahotel, excuse me, and it was
(18:31):
three or four days later.
The hotel took a direct hit.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
It's still closed.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Once later it's still closed.
Took a direct hit and it's justthat dangerous, especially
public conveyances, hotels,meeting places, and if they see
you're there they'll target you.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
They have spotters, the Russians have spotters yeah,
and I would imagine you're kindof a target to some extent,
right, Because you're anAmerican coming over making an
impact.
I would imagine that you're ontheir radar, I would assume.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, we're considered high-value targets
when we go over there,especially with what I do,
because we have groups of peoplecome to get trained or to
facilitate things or planningsessions, not so much in the
capital or other major citieslike Lviv or Kharkiv even
Kharkiv actually, because it'sso close to Russia, it's like 20
miles from Russia but in theother locations on the front, if
(19:31):
you meet, the Russian spotterswill see and you've only got a
few hours before you have tofinish up and get out of there.
They're not going to send amissile in.
That costs a quarter milliondollars if there are two or
three people in a facility, butif they see 30 people or 40
(19:52):
people and high value targetslike police officers or officers
in the military, you're a primetarget and they warn you.
First of all, they tell you atthe last minute when the meeting
is going to take place or thetraining or whatever it may be,
and then you get transported in,told how much time you have
(20:14):
before it's going to be toodangerous.
I did a training in aparticular location, which I'll
leave the name out just forsecurity reasons, and we were
told the night before.
I wasn't told when I was goingto be picked up.
Just a surprise.
I was just told to be ready inthe morning, went in.
We got an hour into it, therewas an attack.
(20:36):
We had to go into the basement.
Three hours later we hadanother attack.
They had zeroed in on ourposition and we were told we had
to leave the vicinity and therewere about 100 of us that had
to just literally run and thespotter called it off.
(20:56):
Nobody in the building, nosense in wasting a few hundred
thousand dollars on a weapon.
An hour later we're back in thebuilding.
Same thing happened again.
Another close call.
We had to run and get out ofthere and they called off the
attack.
But they did use the missileselsewhere, in that particular
(21:18):
general vicinity where therewere people, and the attacks
were successful.
So you're constantlystrategizing and being warned
and fortunately the intelligenceis good and the US intelligence
agencies supply a lot ofinformation that's very valuable
that we use and it's veryeffective and I'll just leave it
(21:42):
at that.
Very effective and I'll justleave it at that.
They've helped me and a lot ofthe work that I do become
possible because of knowingwho's where and who's watching,
what and and when things mighthappen to keep us safe.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah Well, and it's been interesting too for me
knowing you on a personal leveland getting to hear a little bit
about what you've experiencedover there.
And I'm just speaking formyself here, so feel free to
correct me if I'm wrong, but itfeels like a lot of the stuff.
For whatever reason, that'sactually going on on the ground
(22:18):
over there doesn't really getfully covered by the national
media.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Absolutely.
It's a different animal overthere On the news and I watch it
when I'm in the United Statesit's a watered-down version.
Attacks may happen in certaincities.
They'll name the location,they'll show something burning,
but they don't realize thatpeople go out there during those
attacks men, women, civiliansand soldiers and first
(22:51):
responders and they're givenintelligence as to what the
possibility of another attack is, whether they have to go in or
not, what they have to do andthey're in there putting out
fires, getting attacked again,picking up body parts, putting
people in body bags over days,moving.
(23:14):
We had to move a body the lasttime I was there at 1.30 in the
morning because it was misplaced, but there are teams of people
that I work with that do that.
We were asked once to get arefrigerator Tucker.
They had almost 1,000 bodies inthe Bakhmut area and that's
(23:35):
just part of it.
And then there's constant droneattacks.
There's a lot of facilitiesthat are doing work as we speak
and hundreds of locations inUkraine that are doing work for
the war and their civilians thatare working underground in
their homes on things that I'mnot privileged to say for
(23:57):
security reasons, and peopletaking chances and running risks
that can only be told after thewar is over, but when you're on
the ground and you see and hearthe number of people that have
a family member that's eitherdead, lost a limb or is in a
(24:19):
hospital or captured, and it'sprofound.
Everybody knows somebody who'sa friend, a relative, humble,
quiet, talking to me about whathe did and when he was going to
(24:52):
deploy again and I asked him theplaces he'd been and he
described this situation.
He pulled up his shirt.
He showed me a scar about sixinches long.
Then he showed me his chestthere was another wound there
and his shoulder another woundthere.
Different occasions, differentlocations, and each time he went
(25:12):
back to fight again wounded,disabled.
I've taught classes at basestraining and soldiers would come
and go during the breaks,limping in and out of the room
and they were just waiting forthe deployment orders to go back
to the front.
Some of the locations were onthe front, but not in the
(25:35):
immediate, what they call thezero point or the red zone,
where it's intimate with theenemy and it's just, it's sad,
it's, it's humbling, becausepeople say, oh, it's great,
look's sad, it's um, it'shumbling yeah because people,
people say, oh, it's great whatyou look, what you're doing,
it's.
It's nothing compared to whatthey go through, it's nothing
(25:56):
compared to the courage theseguys have, the sacrifices they
make.
Um, some of them are depressed,but they go out every day and
continue to fight.
I've slept outside in tentswith the soldiers a few times.
It's nothing.
They have to do it every day inthe winter with so nice outside
.
For me, it's nothing because Iget to come back to the United
(26:18):
States.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
And they're doing it, so they still have a home to go
back to.
Hopefully at the end of it all,hopefully, it's amazing the
sacrifices.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
For them it's just a way of life.
People go in their backyards.
There's pieces of shrapnel frommissiles and drones that have
been shot down and weaponry.
Daily you hear explosions,things going off.
They have to go to the sheltersand this is their way of life.
(26:51):
When you go over there a lot,you start to get used to it,
used to the sirens, used to theregimen.
The food, that's different.
It may not be as good.
Certainly the bathroomfacilities are.
They get as primitive as as youcan get when you leave the
(27:11):
major cities.
Uh, it's, it's difficult, butit's their way of life.
They live it.
They live in the cold, theylive wet, they live in fear of
their lives.
It's, it's.
It's not seen on on tv, butwhen you're on the front it's
there all the time You've got tolimit the amount of time you're
outside, not undercover, notmoving quickly.
(27:36):
And the war is changing.
Drone defense is evolving.
Every few months it'scompletely different, it's
completely changed.
The technology is advanced andthe Russians and the Ukrainians
are trying to keep pace witheach other's advancements and
innovations.
And this is life.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Puts it in perspective when we're worried
about whatever we're worriedabout here, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, knowing and keeping in your mind how to put
a tourniquet on with one hand incase your other arm is blown
off or badly wounded, and thosebriefings we get when we land in
the country on first aid are inyour mind all the front and
(28:24):
they live it.
It's not like me I come and go,they're there, they stay, and
there are always people that aretrying to do more.
And so when you come and youbring information, new training,
new methodologies from theUnited States information, new
(28:47):
training, new methodologies fromthe United States your time is
day and night.
It's usurped by them.
If you're not training all daylong or out with the troops
doing something, having to gosomewhere with them to do
something let's just put it thatway at night they've got you
and need you for information,insights, help, morale, building
(29:10):
, perspective on the UnitedStates and its position in the
world arena relative to Ukraine.
It's a lot of work, but it'snothing compared to what they go
through it's a lot of work, butit's nothing compared to what
they go through.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, well, and I wanted to ask you about that
because I know being over thereas much as you have and, I'm
sure, being inspired by whatyou've seen from these brave men
and women that are doing thisevery day too, can you talk to
me a little bit about some ofthe individual relationships
that you've built over there, orany individual people or
soldiers, or whoever it may bethat that you've been inspired
(29:52):
by?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
well, I've met people at so many different levels
whether it was political,military or or volunteers that
go in and out of the front, andit's you're just so impressed by
what people do.
My friend, victor um, who I tryto see every time I go over
(30:13):
there and work with he goes inand out of the front every day
he was white.
Yeah, every day he's beenwounded numerous times.
People want to bring materialsinto the front but they're
afraid he goes and brings theirvehicle because many times he
(30:34):
doesn't have a vehicle becauseit's been destroyed and he'll
bring their vehicle back.
Full of bullet holes, gosh, andit's perpetual.
Sometimes he has to.
When the floods took place inZaporizhia, he had to duck
underwater when they wereshooting at him and one time he
came up and he got around, hit abuilding behind him and the
(31:00):
shrapnel came back and cut hishead open.
There's actually a video ofthat cut his head open.
There's actually a video ofthat.
He has just done so many things.
So many times had tanks shootat him when he runs from
building to building trying todeliver supplies in Herson, and
(31:20):
it's, it's like a movie for ushere, you know, but it's real
life for them over there.
Yeah, it's amazing what he goesthrough and yet he's got a sense
of humor.
These guys will do anything.
The people I work with on thefront, the soldiers, and even my
friend Victor, they'll doanything.
There's nothing they're notafraid to do, and actually their
(31:47):
families too.
It just runs in the extendedfamily Grandmothers, mothers,
wife many of them have suchdeeds of heroism that they
engage in on a daily basis.
And there are other people Imean we've had people, for
(32:08):
instance, in the church that Ifrequently stay in and work from
, because I always have afacility when I need to train
people or have meetings.
It's like on call anytime Ineed it.
They send people to the frontonce or twice a week and I've
seen, I've ridden with themthere's some difficult areas,
(32:32):
let's just put it that way andseen videos of them and what
they've done.
One fellow his name is Yuri wentout once to Kherson.
He didn't come back.
He was trying to rescue somepeople brought supplies out, was
bringing people back out and hestayed because the vehicle was
full.
He stayed and a missile came inand took him out, and I was
(32:55):
having lunch with BishopRaczczynski at the church when
we got the call.
But Yuri had just gotten killedby a missile and three kids,
veteran himself.
These are the heroes that arejust great.
Guy was such a sweet, kind manbut just volunteered and would
(33:19):
take all the risks that otherpeople are frequently afraid to
take, and he paid for it withhis life.
Frequently afraid to take, andhe paid for it with his life.
And there are just so manyothers that have been working
hard, paying the price, and someof them it doesn't matter what
(33:39):
they have to do, they're justgoing to say yes and go.
And then again, in all honesty,there are those that really
don't want to go and they don'twant to serve for good reason.
The death rate is so high.
I spoke to a commander inBakhmut.
I was in Bakhmut about twoyears ago and one of the
(34:01):
commanders telling me how muchhe hates his job.
And he started with 200 men.
He was down to 60 in aboutseven months, wow, and he just
hated what he did.
But he said I can't stop, Ican't quit, it's what I do.
And then again, when you're outthere with those guys, it's a
(34:26):
brotherhood you share so muchbecause you're there and for the
same reason, when I go on, forthe same reason that they're
there just to help out, whateverit takes.
Vehicle and going through holesthat were made by artillery
(34:47):
shells or rockets and justdriving at breakneck speed and
the music's on full blast andyou're smashing your head
against the ceiling andeverybody's singing and trying
to go through cornfields toavoid the mines and people are
(35:08):
happy and waiting to get a warmmeal and it's a brotherhood and
a camaraderie that it's justbeyond compare.
You can't replace it.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
You really can't replicate that any other way,
can you?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
No, last experience by me in Vietnam, way, can you?
Oh, last experience by me inVietnam, and I look forward to
seeing those folks mostly men,but women too that are just,
they'll do anything, anythingfor their country.
And I was riding in from Polandand I'd just gone Lviv and I
(35:49):
was on my way to Kiev.
It was about a 10-hour ride.
There was a guy in front of meand let's see, we're facing each
other and he told me he was 82years old.
He'd been an English teacherand he said that I'm old, I'm
(36:15):
tired and I'm weak, but if I sawa Russian soldier right now I
would do my best to kill him.
And it's like good God, youknow, the guy's 82 years old and
he has this fighting spirit.
And what have we got tocomplain about when you have
people like that that arewilling to do so much for their
country?
Yeah, pardon me for using suchstrong language and words, but
(36:41):
that's how it is over.
That's how people talk, even inthe religious institutions, the
churches and synagogues.
It's a struggle to live and thecost is born because of Russian
aggression, and there's noother way to express it.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Yeah, no, I'm thankful that you are.
(37:28):
Yeah, no, I'm thankful that youare.
And I'm thankful you're sharingit with with me and my audience
, because I think it's important, because partially because it's
really not covered to the fullextent on the on the national
news and partially because it'seasy for us in America, here
with the cozy cushy lifestylesthat a lot of us have to tune it
out or make it political.
But at the end of the day,these are real human beings and
this is real life and death andpeople aren't hearing it
anywhere else, so they need toknow what's going on, because
everybody can support protectinghuman life and what they're
going through.
I wanted to ask you this isprobably a good time to do it,
(37:51):
but how does this compare toyour experience with Vietnam?
Because as I listen to you talkand I'm just thinking, and you
mentioned even, you know,obviously we had a draft at that
time here in our country andthey're pulling people in
everywhere they can over thereand there's a lot of
similarities, it seems like.
But how does it compare for youwith your two experiences?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, in Vietnam the Americans supported the war
excuse me, the American militarysupported the war with arms,
ammunition, food supplies,logistics.
With arms, ammunition, foodsupplies, logistics, everything
you needed to prosecute that war.
Over there it's a hand-to-mouthsituation where they're
(38:35):
struggling for everything theyget.
When I bring medical suppliesover, it's a gift from God.
I brought a couple laptops overthe last time I was there.
They needed them for planninglogistics, drone training.
(39:00):
It's not like the United Stateswhere the support is there, an
unlimited supply of materials,and over there it's highly
dependent on the rest of theworld, on Europe and the United
States, the Western countries.
When I'm there and they seeUnited States, see that my
(39:20):
uniform here, which I wear whenI'm over there every day If I
didn't wear a uniform I'd be theonly person on the bases and
facilities I go to that wasn'tin uniform they say we see the
United States.
When we see you in that uniform, we feel we have hope that
America's here, we have somesupport and what they do is give
(39:44):
you everything they've got.
If you're on a train movingsomewhere in the country or on
your way in, they'll go intotheir suitcases and take gifts
out their food, their drinks,everything.
They'll try to buy things foryou, pay for things for you,
because of the appreciation theyhave, because they don't have
the assistance and support thatwe had in Vietnam.
(40:06):
Everything was there if youwanted it Ammunition supplies,
food, everything you needed.
So big sense of gratitude andfor me I just say listen, please
don't thank me.
This is a privilege to be hereamong people like you, and I am
(40:28):
one with you.
You're the reason I come.
They appreciate it so much.
Soldiers will take patches off.
This patch here came from aunit, one of the last units that
I served with over there Wow,last units that I served with
over there A few weeks ago.
They take pieces of theiruniform, patches, some of the
(40:53):
weaponry, small weapons, and myhome is full of gifts and pieces
of their life that show theirappreciation.
They'll do paintings.
They'll have their family knitsomething, give you clothing,
(41:16):
anything to show how much theyappreciate with the little bit
that they have.
These people are poor.
I pay translators about $100 aday and that's like three days'
pay.
Yeah, $100 a day is like threedays' pay and they're not
(41:38):
wealthy.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
They need money, support material and I was going
to bring that up up too,because it's kind of funny.
I was going to bring it upearlier in the conversation that
a lot of people would watchthis and wonder why, why are you
doing this?
You know and they don't evenknow too yet, because I haven't
(42:00):
brought it up but you're payingon your own dime for most of
these, if not all of these.
I know there's some smalldonations and now you've got the
affiliation with the Departmentof Defense, but these have
pretty much all been on your owndime.
So you're paying money to goover there.
A lot of people would say whywould you do this?
But the cool thing is, I think,just listening to you talk the
(42:21):
last 20, 30 minutes here, it'spretty obvious why you're doing
it.
You can see how much you care.
You can see how connected to ityou are and to helping these
people.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
You know, these people sometimes will try to
have a little celebration in theevening with music and food and
they speak about their ownexperiences and it's so
heart-wrenching that if youdon't feel something when you're
among them, I don't know whatkind of person you'd be that you
(42:58):
aren't touched by this and feela sense of loyalty, commitment
that you should sacrifice more,that you aren't doing enough,
and if you aren't touched bythat, there's something wrong
with you.
It's a matter of going over forthe right reason and
experiencing it.
And what they're going throughto save their country, their
(43:19):
family and the losses they'vetaken are just incredible, and
if it doesn't affect somebodyand make them want to come back
and do more, and many people goover there for that reason.
They want to be a part of thegood fight, participate in the
(43:43):
sacrifices, whether it's forreligious or moral or personal
reasons.
The people that I work with aregreat people that just feel a
sense of commitment.
People that just feel a senseof commitment and I can't say
enough about them men and womenthat go over and do this.
Not just the Ukraine.
(44:04):
I'm talking about the peoplefrom Western Europe that come in
and don't get much or anythingand have to pay, like me, to do
it, to make sure it gets done.
And listen, I have people in myorganization here in the United
States that say I'm not goingto donate any money and I'm not
(44:24):
going.
I say thank you for telling meYou're honest.
I can understand why youwouldn't want to go.
It's risky and can be expensive.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
I keep teasing you but I can't.
This might be our publicopportunity to pitch Kelly on
letting me go with you, but I'mkind of kidding Anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Well, hopefully at some point in time she'll say
give you the nod and let you go.
There's certainly a lot ofareas that are relatively safe,
but you can still contribute alot.
Places near the border withPoland, lviv, major city they
need help.
The people get deployed FromLviv, go to the front, come back
(45:07):
.
They need services andCounseling, therapy, health.
As I indicated, we're buildinga rape center for women.
We're getting those servicesestablished.
It's in a safe area, which itshould be.
Obviously there are refugeecenter for children, beautiful
(45:30):
facilities that are being builtand worked on, so the kids who
suffered or lost their familymembers or parents will have a
place to go.
Not all of the young peoplehave gone to other countries.
Many of them are still there,and so there's a lot that can be
done in the country andcertainly medical services as
(45:53):
well as psychological stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Well, I'll just say this for myself, because you
literally haven't brought iteven up to me and we haven't
talked about it because I didn'tbring it up either.
But I'm just going to say formy audience here I'm going to
find a way.
I don't even know if a linkexists right now, but we'll try
to create one.
If it doesn't, if you'd like tosupport these efforts, I can't
(46:18):
imagine why you wouldn't.
This is an American soldierthat I'm talking to here, a
combat veteran that fought forour country, who's now in the
depths with this war in Ukraineand providing aid and spending
money and time and putting hisown life at risk to do so.
I think the very least that wecan do is contribute to that.
(46:38):
If we're in a position, we'reable to do so.
So think the very least that wecan do is contribute to that.
If we're in a position, we'reable to do so.
So that's not why we're doingthis, but that's just Stefan
Piscano saying if you're in aposition to support, I'll put
the link up, and I hope thatmany of my network do, because,
again, I understand the war issomewhat gotten politicized here
, but these are real humanbeings that are dying and being
(46:59):
raped and going through watchingfamily members wounded and all
the things that Patrick'stalking about here, that they're
experiencing on a daily basis,and anything that we can do to
help with that.
I think it's a blessing to havethe opportunity to do so.
So, patrick, so talk to me.
A lot's happened and a lot'sbeen in the news the last few
(47:22):
months, even in the mainstreammedia.
What is the mood and what isthe situation on the ground
right now?
Is it getting worse in 2025?
Isn't there things improving atall?
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Battle conditions are rough and getting worse, mostly
because of drone warfare.
The technology advanced overthe last few years to the extent
that people aren't safe on thefront if they're exposed.
If they can be seen from thesky, there's a high likelihood
that themselves or theirvehicles will be attacked by a
(47:57):
drone, whether it's a kamikazeor a missile and so the
situation has gotten moreintense.
Some areas are worse thanothers.
It all depends, but theRussians are advancing.
They've taken 2% or 3 percentmore of the country since the
(48:18):
war started.
It's less a conventional war asit was in the beginning.
Technology is really really thekey, and the Russians are
making advances, which you mayread about or hear about on the
(48:38):
internet.
Youtube isn't necessarilywhat's going on on the ground,
where you may see the Russiansare taking a beating.
No, both sides are taking abeating.
The Russians may have morelosses, but the Ukrainians
aren't far behind.
Ukrainians aren't far behind.
(49:01):
One of the significantdifferences that the Russians
have a broader supply ofpersonnel that can be mobilized
than the Ukrainians.
The Ukrainians are running out.
Many of the people I serve withare already wounded wounded
badly, shouldn't be fightinganymore, have volunteered to
stay on board so that they cancontinue just because their
(49:24):
heart is in the battle.
But they're running low onpeople and the mobilization age
has been lowered recently downto 25, and they're going to go
lower and lower.
It's my understanding.
I can say that it looks likethe war isn't going to end soon,
on one hand, but on the otherhand, negotiations are underway.
(49:48):
There's talks about possibleceasefires.
They may not necessarily resultin anything strong, meaningful,
acceptable, but at least thatstarted over the last few months
.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
As far as morale is concerned about.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
a year ago there was some talk about maybe the United
States was going to cut funding.
Congress had some positionsthat were concerned about
whether the money was being usedwisely or corruption was
steering some of the supplies ormoney in other directions.
(50:28):
Certainly that happens, but theUkrainian people and soldiers
on the ground were reallyconcerned and worried as to
whether they were going to getcut off.
They got cut off by the UnitedStates.
This war is going to end fairlyquickly and not in a positive
way.
So when the Trumpadministration took over, there
(50:52):
was both hope and concern.
On the one hand, Trump is astrong person who said he could
end the war quickly.
Most of us thought that thatwould not happen, that it would
take some time.
On the other hand, Trump isconservative with spending and
(51:12):
using our military overseas,particularly wars.
So it's kind of a double-edgedsword.
The Ukrainian people areconcerned.
They're worried about whatTrump's position is going to be.
They don't trust anything Putinsays, nor do I, and in a few
(51:34):
words one could say that mostUkrainians feel they've suffered
so much and lost so muchalready that they don't want to
give up any territory.
They don't want to give uptheir territory.
They've lost too much.
That's probably the simplest,most succinct way to state the
Ukrainian position.
It's essentially what Zelensky,President Zelensky, feels as
(51:59):
well.
Putin, on the other hand, feelsthe opposite.
He feels Ukrainian is theirsand down through Kherson,
southern reaches were primarilyRussian-speaking and they should
(52:26):
be under the jurisdiction ofRussia, and it seems like that's
the least.
He'd want the subtlest war, andthat's completely unacceptable
from the Ukrainian's point ofview.
I spent some time with thechief economic advisor to
Zelensky.
(52:46):
It appears much of the war isgoing to be determined by
economics, by how long theRussians can sustain this war
with low oil prices.
The Russian needs about $60 abarrel to break even.
They're only a little above $60a barrel right now on the world
(53:09):
market.
So they're not making much moneyand they're running on a war
economy and their oil most oftheir oil is going to India and
they're dealing in rupees.
They're getting paid in rupees,which doesn't have much value
on the world market, so they'resuffering an economic pinch.
Most of their production isn'tgoing into expanding the GDP,
(53:34):
it's going into Ukraine andthey're suffering and that
decline is continuing and thelonger it goes, the better the
chances are for Ukraine.
Ukraine has outside support.
The amount of support Ukrainegets as opposed to Russia is
about 13 to 1 when you factor inall the European countries, the
Western countries, canada, theUnited States and others.
(53:56):
So the economic advantage iscertainly in favor of Ukraine,
but it's not immediate.
It takes time and Russia hasthe manpower in the short term I
guess we're going into themidterm now but Russians still
have a lot of people that theycan conscript to go in and fight
(54:18):
.
Then it just becomes.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
how many people on their side are they willing to
sacrifice for Putin's, whateverit is?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
This is it.
And on the positive side, thepeople they're conscripting
don't get much basic training Afew weeks and then they're in
the field, don't know how toconduct themselves in war and
they get killed or injured a lotsooner and are taken out of the
field.
So it's a constant turnover.
There's much more turnover ofpersonnel and people that
(54:52):
they're replaced by don't havethe experience.
People that they're replaced bydon't have the experience.
The Ukrainians have a fairlymuch more significant basic
training.
I've been in those bases, I'vehelped in the training and it's
(55:16):
more extensive than what theRussians get.
Some of the problems that theUkrainians still have are the
old Soviet style of leadership,which are trying to get rid of
so that they operate moreefficiently and morale is better
.
But by and large, ukrainianshave a little better training.
They have a slight edge intechnology because they're using
Western weapons and the dronesthey're using are slightly more
(55:37):
advanced than the Russians.
But the Russians are keepingpace, sometimes advancing beyond
the capability of theUkrainians, and the Ukrainians
have to catch up as well.
I'm fairly involved with andfamiliar with the Ukrainian
drone program and what they'redoing, and I get briefed on it
(55:58):
when I go over there.
They've given me thoseexposures as well as other
(56:22):
aspects of the war that shouldbe beyond the scope of what I
should say during this meeting.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
Well, yeah, and I think we'll probably have to
edit this out too, but you got aspecial honor on this last
deployment.
Are we allowed to discuss yoursignature?
Speaker 2 (56:41):
My signature.
Oh, we better leave that out.
Okay, I'll leave that out then Iparticipated right on the,
literally on the front line inthe red zone, and we'll have to
leave that for the history bookswhen they're written.
And this is over and it's safefor me to discuss some of my
(57:03):
other activities, because I dowork in sensitive areas and
sensitive bases with code names.
But some of it's fun.
It's not all miserable anddepressing.
We do have moments of levityand that one will have to go in
the history books for my ownsafety.
(57:24):
Fair enough, some of the thingsI did and the people around me
do frequently.
So we'll get to that in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
All right, fair enough.
Well, in closing, as we wrap uphere and we're recording this
the day before Memorial Day andI'm hoping that I can get this
live quicker than usual get itlive tomorrow on Memorial Day
because I want to salute you, myfriend, for your you know, I
guess almost 50 years of servicehere now and your continued
(57:57):
service, and then the greatpeople that are fighting in
Ukraine that we're highlightinghere today, first and foremost.
But in closing, what's yourmessage to us here on the ground
in America and what's yourmessage to everybody in Ukraine
that you're still fightingalongside of?
Speaker 2 (58:16):
Message to America is continue to support Ukraine.
The world depends on this.
Ukraine goes, poland could benext, estonia, latvia, these
other border states.
They're worried.
Europe is really worried.
Putin is not somebody to takelightly.
(58:37):
He's aggressive, he's anintelligence officer that's been
successful and we've got totake it seriously and continue
to support them.
The brave people that are doingthis now for us.
Certainly they're doing it fortheir own country as well, but
they're the bulwark that we have.
(58:58):
They're that barrier we have tofurther Russian expansion and
we need to continue to supportthem and any of the
organizations not just mine, butany of the others that are
fighting.
And to the people of Ukraine, Ipraise you, god bless you and
Slava Ukraina, which means gloryto Ukraine.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you again for doingthis, my friend.
I really appreciate it and youknow I'll just close with this
too.
Guys, if you want to getupdates on the foreign
directorate's progress thatPatrick leads and all his
efforts and what's actuallygoing on on the ground in
Ukraine, you can subscribe totheir YouTube channel, which I
believe is just the ForeignDirectorate on YouTube.
(59:42):
You can go to the website.
Can you give the website,patrick, do you mind?
Speaker 2 (59:46):
Yeah, there's a link that gets you to the Foreign
Directorate through its NDTCCenter, ndcenter, those two S's
com, nbtccentercom, and there'sa link to the International
Division.
The Forum Directorate is inthere.
If anybody wants to donate,stefan will have an
(01:00:10):
instrumentality to be able to dothat.
Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
And I'll put all these links.
Yes, sir, yeah, well, I'll putall these links in the
description here, you guys, foreverybody watching this on
youtube, and we'll put it in thepodcast links as well.
And again, I'm grateful I'vedonated a bit.
I'm going to donate some more,uh, when I get it set up to do
so today, hopefully, and uh,encourage you to join us in that
(01:00:33):
as well.
But, patrick, thank you again,have a great memorial day and
thank you for all you do thankyou, take care.
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