December 22, 2023 • 42 mins
Well, here it is the 2023 season finale of Steve's Rules. In this very special episode we are joined by Steve's colleagues Saadia Sultan and Rob Verga who share insights from the 2023 lateral recruiting in market and their predictions for 2024. We end our podcast with some truly hard won observations about how firms and candidate's can impede their own efforts and some best practices as well. As always we welcome your thoughts and ideas about how we can improve our podcast. Please contact Steve or me Murray Coffey at any time. Thank you for listening and tune in next year for season II of Steve's Rules.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of M Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professionals into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others. Well,hello, everybody. To another
edition of Steve's rules, andthis is a very special edition,
Right? Steve,
Steve (01:13):
absolutely, year end special. Yes,
Unknown (01:16):
it's a year end special. We will not have any
elves or or Santos runningaround on this one, and no
singing Steve this time and butwe're joined by a couple of
couple of great colleagues ofSteve's from McCormick group,
the McCormick group, and we'veGot an action packed
(01:41):
presentation for you all today.
Episode for you today. We'regoing to we're going to talk
about market, what was, whatwill be, talk about different
observations on how, how firmscan improve their their their
batting average, if you will,with with recruits, and how to
support those recruits a littlebit, and a very special bit at
(02:04):
the right, at the end, where wetalk about give it gives. Give a
short, short, punchy list of ofsome ideas for you all to
consider. So with that, whydon't we go ahead and kick it
off with some briefintroductions, and we'll start
with Sadia.
(02:27):
Thank you, Murray, so much andSteve, congratulations on a
successful year with thepodcast. I'm Sadia Sultan. I'm
based in Houston. I'm looking atand exploring the opportunities
for the McCormick group in theHouston and then sort of greater
Texas market. I've had a careerof over 20 years in public and
(02:50):
government affairs with a focusmostly on energy. And then I've
been doing legal recruiting fortwo to three years as well. And
I worked with my colleagues, Roband Steve and we cover our
respective markets. We've takenthe McCormick group a little bit
outside of DC into into Texasand New York. Thank you, Murray
(03:10):
and I look forward toparticipating. Yeah, great, Rob.
Thank you Murray and thank youSteve for inviting us. My name
is Rob Verga. I joined McCormickin April of 22 after a long
career in legal services. First,I was a structured finance
attorney, then I worked as acompliance manager, and then
(03:31):
finally, as a conflicts attorneyat two big law firms, big law
firms, and I enjoy what I do. Ilove recruiting, because I get
to help people, and I get tosolve problems. I get to put
candidates in a better place,maybe get some more of what they
deserve in terms ofcompensation, etc, and I get to
(03:53):
help law firms fill a need,build a business. So I love what
I do and looking forward to theyear ahead.
Absolutely. And while you're aman who needs no introduction,
especially on this podcast,Steve, why don't you go ahead
and introduce yourself onceagain. Okay,
Steve (04:10):
so I'm Steve Nelson. I've been with the McCormick group
now 28 years and counting, andbasically run the gamut and
everything in the legal space.
You know, worked on partners,groups, government lawyers,
people from the hill, but thenalso work on the high level
professional management searchesas well. So it's, you know, it's
(04:37):
been a varied career, and veryhappy to be doing this podcast
with you. Murray,
Unknown (04:45):
well and I with you, Steve. We've had a long, a long
relationship and a fruitful one.
So thank you. And I will tellthe listeners that if you want
to understand what's going on inyour respective markets, yes.
Body I call, give Rob a call,give Steve a call. There these
folks have fingers on the pulselike no other group that I that
I've seen, and I've seen a lotof groups so and I really mean
(05:08):
that, and if you aren't on theirmailing list for their
respective intelligence reportsthat they send out, please,
please look for the emailaddress in the show notes and
you please sign up. Just sendthem a note. Let them know you
want to be on their mailinglist. Alright, so with that, oh,
(05:29):
and I'll introduce myself. I'mMurray Coffey. I'm the principal
and founder of M Coffey. We're awe're a law firm consultancy,
working in all kinds ofdifferent areas related to
marketing, business development,professional development,
business planning, etc. And andformer CMO, for, I don't know
(05:52):
what, Steve 20 plus years so, sojust, I've always been involved
in recruiting, so that was kindof a natural match. Natural
match here. So why don't we? Whydon't we talk about what's going
what's happened in our markets,respect your respective markets,
what you're seeing as maybeemerging trends in the markets
(06:16):
that you're in. And I know,Steve, you'll kind of talk,
maybe about some of the nationaltrends as well. But this time,
let's, let's kick off with withSadia talking about the markets
that she's focusing in, whatshe's seeing, what's going on,
and what you're kind of, what,what's sort of on the horizon.
(06:37):
Thank you, Murray, so much.
Steve will talk about thenational trends, and the
national trends will, of course,have an impact on our respective
markets. In Texas, I think hewould agree that you're going
to, you see the same sort of,you have lateral hiring, sort of
down as compared to the sametime last year and same time as
in 2021 and you know, some ofthe sister event by the
(07:01):
corporate practice slow down,and a little bit of slow down on
the regulatory, regularregulatory practice fronts. Now
Texas specifically, I would sayso we have Washington, DC,
obviously, where the McCormickgroup is headquartered. Once you
get out of DC, you know you'relooking the states are like
(07:22):
industrial hub, hub states,that's what I consider them. So
in Texas, you know, with withthe focus on energy, health
care, you know, other spaces,you're going to see that both
companies moving into Texas,whether they're coming from
California or they're comingfrom overseas, you're going to
(07:43):
see that that company movementdrive the demand for, you know,
opening of new offices for thelaw firms. You're going to see
more hiring in that regard.
You're also, because it's anindustrial hub state, you're
going to see the same trends yousee in those industries. You
(08:04):
know, for example, energy movingfrom oil and gas to renewables.
You're going to see the demandshift as well for hiring, you
know, maybe less oil and gaslawyers, more renewable lawyers,
more you know, energy storagelawyers, for example. So that's
what you get at that statelevel. And in Texas, you're
(08:24):
going to see those trends aroundenergy and and health care.
Texas on its own, if it was itsown standalone economy, would be
depending on the oil priceanywhere from 10th to 14th. So
even in a slow year, you'regoing to see growth in Texas,
and that's why you see so manyoffices, including not so many
(08:47):
law firms, including not theworld's largest law firms,
opening offices in Austin,Dallas, Houston. Thank you.
Murray,just a quick question. Sonia,
yeah, I am in the Texas markets,and I'm in Dallas, specifically,
we saw what I would call sort ofa disruption of, of the sort of
the the big five firms in in inTexas, lot of, lot of new firms
(09:14):
coming in competition. It madethings frothy for a while. Is
that settling out a little bit,or is that still going on?
We have followed the trends forthe last two years. I would
invite Steve to tell me if yousaw any other trends beyond the
two years. But Murray, I thinkgenerally speaking, you're
(09:38):
seeing you're just seeingincreased competition. I hope
I'm answering your question theway you're looking at it, but
you'll you're seeing, likesmaller firms opening offices in
areas where maybe bigger firmswere nominating. You're also
seeing, you know, you're alsoseeing the Texas firms open more
offices outside of Texas. Yes.
So you see that kind of movementin different ways. We're
(10:02):
actually talking to a firm rightnow that has a significant, had
a significant energy presence inNew York and California, and is
now trying to add personnel tothe Texas side, but on the
energy transition side,transition interesting? Yeah.
Interesting, yeah. I think thetransition side is gonna, is
(10:23):
gonna pick up speed over overtime.
Steve (10:26):
Don't talk, yeah. Let me add just a couple of points to
what Saudi is saying, because acouple things we've noticed. One
is, I think that the there was aphrase I would say in that five
year period where the bignational firms. And you, you all
know who they are. We're comingin, overpaying for talent and
(10:47):
just grabbing people from mostlythe established Texas firms, but
others that that has sloweddown. There's still some of that
going on, but that slowed down.
The other thing we're we'reseeing is, and this is, and
Saudi referred to this. I thinkthere are a lot of smaller firms
and law sort of second 100firms, and even smaller than
(11:07):
that, that are really increasingtheir efforts in Texas, and
particularly with lower ratepractices that the one of the
national trends we're seeing isthe bifurcation is even more
distinct now between firms thatare the partners routinely
charge well over $1,000 an hourand firms that are charged that
(11:30):
are happy to charge as low as$600 an hour for partner time.
And so I think that that'screated their own hubs of
activity. And the other thingthat we see in Texas is the
number the percentage ofmovement of groups is higher
than in other parts of thecountry. So you're seeing two
(11:53):
partners, you know, two partnersand a council, two partners and
a couple of associates, etc,maybe even three or four
partners moving from firm tofirm. And so that is much, much
more common in Texas than atleast in DC. I can't really
speak to New York as well. MaybeRob can help me on that, but,
but, but that's something thatwe're seeing, and it's generally
(12:14):
a trend, I think, nationally,but particularly so in Texas.
Unknown (12:22):
Speaking of New York and Rob, Rob, why don't you give
us your view on the market?
Thanks,Murray, New York, I think, has
slowed a little bit. Itdefinitely is driven by the
capital markets. As Stevementioned in the past, New York
drives and lives and dies withthe capital markets and the
stock market, the bond markets,etc, and they're they've tended
(12:44):
to be frozen up a little bitthis year. We also know it's
been the year of efficiencycoming from technology firms
like meta, etc, so and thetechnology firms were laying off
a little bit so that, coupledwith the capital markets frozen
up, has resulted in the secondhalf for the year, I noticed has
(13:06):
gotten a little slower,especially compared to the first
half of 23 litigation, I thinkhas been strong. A lot of firms
are looking for litigators. Itcontinues to be strong. I guess
they say counter cyclical. And Ithink I'm hoping the Fed's done
with raising rates. Hopefully 24will things? Will we a lot more
(13:29):
looser? I'm more sanguine on 24I think there'll be more IPOs,
etc, maybe more private equitydeals, which tends to drive
business throughout the legalcommunity.
Steve (13:46):
Yeah. So let me, let me add a little bit more on the
national spotlight in terms ofthe numbers. The numbers that
we're seeing is that the partnerlevel, partner numbers
nationally, and this is prettymuch true in DC as well, down
about 4% for 2022 which was therecord year for lateral moves.
(14:06):
So from that standpoint, 2023while it may be off a little
bit, it's still a strong year,and I agree with Rob, it's been
particularly weaker since, likeJune, July, and slower than it
was in the early part of theyear. So I think that's that's
down, where we see it moreoften. Obviously, associate
(14:27):
hiring has been down, given thestate of the corporate market,
etc, but also less Councilhiring. I think the statistics
are showing around 20% fewer. Ithink the the firms have have
made a lot of their successionplan hiring that they that
(14:48):
definitely was caused by COVIDand some of the retirements that
occurred during that timeperiod. I think they've done
those, and they're a little lesswilling to do it in a more
challenging. Economic time.
Unknown (15:03):
Yeah, it's 2024. Is going to be a an interesting
year, and I hope, you know, Ihope an active year. I'm seeing
more activity what I do, sothat's, that's good, right?
Steve (15:14):
And, yeah, everything we're seeing is that the
corporate market is going topick up. So that will be
probably positive
Unknown (15:20):
for our industry. So let's shift our focus now. And
we have a, we have a an augustgroup here on this on this
podcast, who have some uniqueinsights into what firms are
doing that are that aresuccessful, what firms are doing
that are creating somechallenges in terms of their
(15:41):
their lateral recruiting, andmaybe we can get each of you to
share some thoughts on what is,what what you've seen as best
practices, where you've seenfirms fumble, and maybe some,
some ways that that firms canimprove what, what they're
doing, just in general, becauseI know it's a, it's a, it's a,
(16:04):
it's a tough thing. This, thisletter, recruiting is a, is a
tough thing, and there's a lotof hands on it. So it's a, it's
tricky. And so why don't we getstarted on this one with Steve?
You have, you have the, probablythe broadest view of of what's
going on, and going back 28years. So
Steve (16:23):
yeah, well, there's, there's definitely a lot to
unpack there, but I would saythe first thing that I think
that firms have to recognize islateral on portable business is
not what it used to be, andfirms have done a better job of
institutionalizing theirclients, and they do a very good
(16:44):
job of rewarding attorneys whoplay a role in both both client
development and client service,and therefore the idea that many
lawyers can pick up and moveeven a a great deal of their
(17:05):
client base, yeah, without anykind of difficulty, is it just
is not. It's not very common.
And so we see the same thingbeing repeated over and over
again, with somebody who isresponsible at their current
firm is compensated, um, attheir current for according to
what they what is regarded astheir originations or their
(17:27):
managed work, but that if theywere to pick up and move, they
would not have nearly that kindof business. But those people
are valuable. Can be valuable toa new firm, particularly if you
look at it from the long haul,like what's going to happen year
two, year three, year four. So Ijust think the firms that are
looking at this with a moreholistic view as to what the
(17:50):
contribution of the lawyer willbe will do better than the firms
that just sort of look at thenumber and start to just look at
this as a bunch of numbers. Sothat would be my first point
that I would make. Second pointI would make is it's all in for
a lot of firms. It's all incrafting the opportunity. What's
the opportunity for the lateral?
(18:13):
Not what is it? What's in it forus? But what is it that the
lateral will gain if they gothrough our platform, what is it
that they will gain, that theymay not be getting where they
are right now? And so it'sreally to tell that story, both
about the practice group thatyou're hiring into and the firm
is all and then the third, I'mgoing to leave this more to
(18:36):
Saudi and Rob, but it's, it's amatter of having your process,
and, you know, having a smoothprocess, predictable, no
surprises, and just it. That's,you know, that's, I would say,
the exception, rather than
Unknown (18:52):
the no surprises. Yeah, right, yeah, exactly. What do
you think about that?
Murray, so, you know, Steveobviously on the money in terms
of what we're seeing overall. Iwould just add to that. And by
the way, what, what Stevedescribes, you know, generally,
is the the same picture forTexas and is going to be for New
(19:14):
York as well. We tried toemphasize to the client that,
you know, obviously don't focusthat hard on portables. More to
what Steve is saying, focus on,you know, what the candidate can
bring. There's more value thanjust the portables. In that
regard, Murray, we we advisethem on a comprehensive business
(19:38):
plan process. And so, in a way,we help both the candidate and
the client, sort of, if you, Iguess you know, you could say,
articulate why that candidate isa good piece for the firm, and
it goes both ways, why thecandidates a good fit for the
firm and why the firm is a goodfit for the candidate in terms
ofsuccess, is not do. This is not
(19:58):
the right, this is not the No,no,
no. That's clarify that, becauseit's a two way street. Yeah,
yeah. Murray, that'sa great question. You know, we,
we help candidates put togethera business plan so that there's,
there's sort of a, almost aforecast in, you know, what the
first six months or year willlook like. It helps both the
(20:20):
firm and the candidate sort offrame, you know, what the
contribution could be. And ittakes the focus a little bit off
the portables, a little bit moreonto the overall value, places a
little bit more on the overallvalue that the candidate brings.
I think it actually helps botharticulate both sides,
articulate their vision in termsof process. And you know, Rob
(20:43):
will add to this as well. Look,this is like any other working
item, if you have a point personon the inside and somebody both,
you know, within the internalrecruiting division and the
practice looking for the talent,working hand in hand with us,
working regularly with us, andlooking at the candidates as we
(21:09):
bring them. You know, withoutany hiccups, you're just going
to have a smoother process.
You're going to allow us to gothrough the market, reach into
our deep depths, whether it'smarket Intel or what we know on
the background of candidates,and we can smoothly Bring,
(21:29):
bring, sort of, it's an ongoingassembly line, almost, of
candidates, and as long asthere's internal coordination
and interest, and I don't wantto steal the thunder From the
end of our podcast, but you'llthe process will be a lot more
smoother, and it'll be asuccessful placement.
Well, great points. Rob, what doyou what are your thoughts on
(21:53):
what you're seeing that firmsare doing ways they could
improve, etc.
Yeah, I just want to follow upon what Steve and sadly, they
said it very well. What, whatthe the county law firms need to
do to improve it? I I'd like tojust delve into a little bit
about that process, part,because I think it's so
(22:13):
important. Steve and Saadiamentioned that they can improve
the process. What does thatreally mean? Like Saudi was
saying, somebody who owns it upthe partner who owns the lateral
hire. They're assigned to it.
They have an interest in makingit work. They're available for
questions. They own the process.
(22:34):
They're the point person there.
They can chat with you whenquestions come in. You can meet
with them once every two weeks.
Let's say they're available.
They make it a priority. Theyown the process. I would also
say law firms should really givea lot of thought before they
bring us in as to whatspecifically they're looking
for. Is this a replacementpartner, or is it building a new
(22:57):
book? If it is, if it's thelatter, obviously it's a lot
more analysis that is involved,and a lot more questions are
going to come in from thecandidates, etc. So that's
important. And do they have thesupport staff for if they're
going to build a new practice?
(23:17):
For example, the support groupslike tax, is that ready, ready
to go and willing and able tosupport the new practice? Have
you thought about that? And thenfinally, focus really, and if
this dovetails and follows fromthe first two, try to smooth out
the process so it's muchshorter. Try to reduce the
process has become 3456, monthsnow, try to make it a little
(23:42):
shorter,
Steve (23:44):
right on that point Rob.
Rob mentions having the pointperson. In reality, I think for
most firms you gotta really,actually have to have two point
persons. One is the partner, andit's critical, and I'm gonna get
back to that. But it's alsosomebody with some real
authority who is in therecruiting staff, the recruiting
director, or a manager, somebodywho's got the ability to get
(24:07):
answers and to move thoseprocesses along. And so you
really need the combination ofboth. I think what we run into
sometimes is we have a really wemight have a really good
recruiting director who's, who'sworking with us, very dedicated,
understands, but invariably,questions will come up about the
practice, about, okay, what youknow, what is the what's the
(24:32):
client base? What, what are thepossible conflicts, things that
are really important, and thatand that recruiting director
doesn't necessarily have theanswers and needs to be able to
contact that, that key partnerand get those answers. And if it
goes, if you're you know, yougot a candidate, and the
candidates asking a bunch ofquestions about the practice,
and you're going two weeksbefore you get an answer that
(24:54):
doesn't put your firm in a goodlight. So all of. What Rob and
Saudi has said is, is absolutelytrue. It's, it's, it is a bunch
of different aspects that needto be in line and work, work,
you know, progressively
Unknown (25:13):
and when I've worked, and I have worked very closely,
as Steve knows, with recruitingteams at different firms that
I've been at, both on theassociate recruiting, you know,
the newbies coming in from lawschool, and also on the lateral,
probably more on the lateralside. What I talk about is, this
is a this is a sales. The salesrules, you know, the selling is
(25:37):
what we're doing here. And thatflips the script, and it makes
them think a little differently.
And to Saudi, his point aboutthe about sort of having this,
this mutuality of understanding,if we can, if we can move that,
move this to a, to a usingtechniques that people use in
sales, not necessarily, youknow, pipeline management and
all that kind of stuff, but, butsort of the the posture in
(25:59):
sales. I think that that canhelp tremendously, and it helps
contextualize it for thepartners. It helps contextualize
it for the recruiting folks.
So I want to go back tosomething that we heard from
(26:21):
Sadia, that I think is, is isinteresting, and that is this
idea of the business plan, orbusiness planning, getting the
getting the getting the lateralrecruits through this arduous
process is, as we've heard, achallenge. The other challenge
that happens then is for thelateral and the lateral to be
(26:44):
successful at their new firm. Myexperience is that some are
highly successful. Othersaren't. And I think there's some
ways that firms can probablyhelp their incoming laterals in
ways that maybe they're notdoing today. And I know Steve,
you've seen just years and yearsand all kinds of different firms
(27:05):
and all kinds of differentcandidates come in with
different levels of success. Sowhat have you seen that's been
on, you know, on the positiveside, that that you've seen
firms do that have helped theirlateral recruits as they're
coming, as they as they'resettling it at the firm,
Steve (27:21):
right? It's interesting, if you look at the historical
basis with regard to a businessplan, you know, when we started
that, you know, sort of process,it was really focused on
government laterals. Governmentlaterals needed a business plan,
because they had, they werestarting from zero. They had to
explain, you know, what theirvalue was, why come to them so
(27:43):
forth that started the process?
You know, that was 25 years ago,but I'd say in recent years,
last 10 years, more and morefirms are requesting, sometimes
demanding, the business plan forpeople who are already in
practice and have a multimillion dollar book, the idea
being that they are realizingthat they've got to prepare for
(28:04):
success. So we see the bestmethodology with regard to a
business plan. It starts in therecruiting process, but goes on
to the, you know, theintegration process as well,
which is, starts with the, youknow, with the candidates
business plan, usually, beforethe the offer is made, there is
(28:27):
a an opportunity for the firm toactually annotate that business
and throw in their ideas, someideas that where they can see
what we can help collateral.
This is this idea of you'recontinuing to sell the
opportunity to the lateral. Sothe best practice is to have a
combination plan that then thatcombination plan can become the
(28:51):
basis for your integration plan,because all of it's there, the
candidates that you hope to comeover, candidates that you can
work together on, candidatesthat neither of you have, but
because of the combinedstrengths of your practices, you
can go out and attract so to me,that's really important. It's a
really a living document thatcan be the basis for review, you
(29:16):
know, every 90 days in terms ofhow lateral is doing, what we
need to do more what the firmneeds to do more, because I can
tell you that the lateralsfailure and success is as much
dependent on the firm as it ison the lab themselves.
Unknown (29:31):
Yeah, and great point.
And I hope for the recruiters,the internal recruiters, and the
heads of practices that I know.
Listen to this podcast. Pleaselisten. My experience is
absolutely squares with withSteve's experience from from the
internal side, the more you cando to help support those, those
(29:53):
laterals in the first really, inthe first six months, maybe
beyond that. But the first sixmonths are critical. Um. So we
always, for those of us, thoseof you who have been listening
to the other episodes of thispodcast, you will know that we
try to inject a little bit offun, a little bit of little bit
of humor into our our episodes,and this one is no different.
(30:18):
And our friends at McCormackgroup have prepared 10 Ways to
Lose Your candidate. And listenup, folks, because this, this is
this is this is real, and theseare, this is this is born out
from hard won experience. Sowe're going to start out with
(30:39):
number 10, Saudia. Want tohandle that. Thank
you. Murray number 10 is refuseto share relevant financial
information. To me, this is anissue of trust, if, if the
client is asking the candidateto share financials from there,
from his or her career, when thecandidate asks the client or the
(31:00):
firm to share relevant financialinformation about the firm.
Often we'll see the client say,oh, but this is confidential. We
don't feel comfortable sharingthis or this piece of
information. Please share thatinformation with the candidate,
because it's going to be a bigpart of the reason why he or she
decides to join your firm.
(31:22):
Excellent. Point number nine.
Steve,
Steve (31:26):
alright, so number nine is back, check the candidate,
and what that what I mean bythat is, go, you know, you know,
for you check with somebody whomight be at another law firm
that worked with that candidate,or even at the firm that they're
leaving, which is amazinglyhappened, this is a violation of
confidentiality, pure andsimple. And it's amazing that
(31:48):
lawyers who would know the valueof confidentiality violate this
more often than than you wouldthink. And so it's really
important to to keep that inmind, because if that, if that
gets back to the candidate, notonly will he or she not come to
your firm, he or she will telleverybody they know about what
(32:10):
happened at the firm and howthey can't be trusted. And then,
then, in that case, you'reyou're toast,
Unknown (32:15):
you are toast.
Absolutely no cinnamon, allright, number eight. Rob,
number eight is require a worldtour, pre COVID. This was
literally a world tour, but nowit's in, we're in a zoom world.
So it's a world, world zoomtour. And again, this is what we
(32:37):
were saying before it goes backto it. It's just a months long
process, the recruiting process,has become too long, and this is
another way to lose a candidateby keep requiring them to meet
one more person.
(33:00):
Nope, I lost it. I lost thehearing.
Rob, I hear you. Okay, now Ihear Murray. I can't hear
Murray, yeah,okay, Murray, I think you're on
mute. Allright, number seven. Steve
Nelson,
Steve (33:20):
all right, so it's number seven is stop selling during due
diligence. That's this isoccurring when you're in due
diligence and you start to bringin people to really question the
lateral about clientrelationships and their history
and why they move to a certainfirm. You know, sometimes that
(33:41):
sounds like the SpanishInquisition and that that never
goes well. So the idea is thatit should all be part of a
discussion as to, you know, thefact that this person can be an
asset to the firm, but we haveto, obviously do our job and
make sure that you know that weunderstand the practice and the
nuances of practice,
Unknown (34:04):
all right? And number seven, which is quite germane to
this time of the year, Sadia,so number six is, ignore the
candidates year bonus. And this,to us, is an issue of timing. So
remember that you the hiringfirm is thinking, Okay, I want
to bring on the candidate inJanuary. Don't forget that the
candidate has their own timing,and the year end bonus is one of
(34:28):
the drivers for the timing ofany possible switch. So you may
say you want to hire in month x,and the candidate's not going
anywhere until he or she hasreceived a year end bonus, which
could be a month later, twomonths later, after they receive
that bonus, they're able to takea series of steps to formally
(34:49):
join your firm,all right. And number five, and
this is only be answered by. RobYes,
something near and dear to myheart, conflicts checking. I
think firms take forever tocheck conflicts is a definite
(35:11):
way to lose a candidate, really.
I urge firms to use commonsense. Here is the lateral
corporate or litigation. Can Doyou really have to go back five
years? You could really threeyears is more often than not as
sufficient. So you could reallyuse common sense, save time
(35:32):
here, and really try to expeditethe conflicts checking process,
right? And number four, onewould not think we would need to
admonish people on this but, butwe do. Steve, yeah,
Steve (35:49):
so I know of at least two firms that are continuing, and
these are big, big, wellrespected firms that continue to
ask lateral partner candidatesfor their law school transcripts
that that that, you know can beborderline insulting, and
particularly for those whodidn't do so well in law school.
(36:10):
But you know the idea that thatyou can't trust the 15 or so
years they've been in privatepractice, in terms of figuring
out, are they good lawyers are.
They're not good lawyers. And togo back to the law school
transcripts and see how they didin their first year towards
class, you know, that justseems, that seems ridiculous to
me and to many candidates. And Idefinitely had candidates when
(36:33):
they've been asked that, whenthey've been asked that
question, basically say, Well,now I know more about this law
firm, and I'm not liking whatI'm here.
Unknown (36:45):
Wow, just wow. All right, going back to some of our
earlier points in the podcastabout process. Rob number three,
yes, this is a another way tolose a candidate fail to
designate a point person lawfirms really have to when
they're doing a lateral search,dedicate partner who can be
(37:08):
responsive, who's available, whoowns the process and can answer
questions quickly andaccurately, so that the
recruiting process moves At aswift pace.
And on a related note, Sadia,number two is make sure that
point person is always busy. Soit's good that the firm has
(37:29):
designated a point person. Andagain, we recommend a point
person within the internalrecruiting function and one with
the practice area making thehire, but you have to make sure
that point person also has aprocess, whether it's recurring
calls some sort of, you know,game plan around when to see
candidates how to work withtheir own internal practice to
(37:53):
keep the process moving along.
So make sure there's a processaround it,
and now, in great anticipation,we look for the number one way
you can lose your candidate.
Steve (38:10):
Steve, right? And that's basically just to ignore the
candidate and his or herrecruiter. It's amazing how when
we get towards the end of aprocess, a firm will go, will go
to radio silence with regard tocandidate. Obviously, there's
some issues. Sometimes it's justa matter of the key people are
(38:31):
going on vacation, or, you know,there's something going on
that's a explainable delay. Andrather than just picking up the
phone and calling the recruiteror calling the candidate and
saying, you know, we're reallystill interested. You know, we
just run into a snag and, youknow, we'll, we'll get this
resolved as soon as possible.
The firm feels like it's almostlike, you know, silence is
(38:51):
golden. Well, silence isn'tgolden into the situation and
will only lead to the candidatewondering, you know, what kind
of firm will I join?
Unknown (39:04):
Well, to those people who are involved, the internal
folks who are involved in inlateral recruiting, I hope you
listened closely here, and alsofor you partners who are who are
in charge of lateral recruiting,or recruiting for your, your
your particular department ofpractice. These are all hard won
lessons. Each one of these isbased on real experience by each
(39:27):
of the recruiters that are onthis call of this podcast today.
And with that, we end Season Oneof Steve's rules, Steve, it's
been, been a great, a great, agreat run, and it's not a run
that's going to end anytimesoon. We're going to be keeping,
keeping this going into 2024,season two. So stay tuned. We'll
(39:50):
have lots of guest stars, as Ialways do on season two, and we
will never jump the jump, jumpthe shark. And that's really it
for me. Steve. Sadia Rob, anyfinal thoughts, questions,
ideas, justthank you very much Steve and
Murray for inviting us and HappyHolidays to all.
(40:12):
Thank Thank you very much Murrayand Steve for having us
participate today and echo whatRob said. I hope you all enjoy
the holiday season.
Steve (40:23):
Yep, and happy holidays.
And don't forget those bonuses.
Good
Unknown (40:29):
bonuses for everybody.
All right, take care, folks.
Thank you. Take care. Everyone.
Have a good day. Bye. Bye.
Again.
Rob, please, by the way, Murray,Murray, Rob does this internally
too. He'll just, he'll be gonewithin like a second of
(40:51):
something ending.
Steve (40:55):
All right, I think that works. I assume that you can
work over the time when you lostyour video, your audio,
Unknown (41:01):
yeah, yeah. We'll, we'll, we'll be able to be able
to to edit that out and makesure it sounds okay, and if I
need to re record a little bit,I will. But I think what,
what happened, by the way, Ithink that we I
have a I have a call, I have acough button on my on my
microphone, and I was coughing,and I just before I cough button
(41:21):
and then, yeah, sowe're not podcast stars like
you, so I don't know if youheard us. Well,
these, this, this microphone isgreat. I use it on all of my
Zoom calls and everything. Andit's, there's like, 150 bucks,
not a whole lot. Oh, wow. Soundsreally, really good. Well,
(41:44):
you have the best, like, sort oflaid back but engaging podcast
voice. Well, thank you. You'reso perfect for this.
It is. You've turnedour Steve into a very perfect
podcaster as well.
He, no, he comes in. Steve comesin with uh.
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of M Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professionals into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others. Well,hello, everybody. To another
edition of Steve's rules, andthis is a very special edition,
Right? Steve,
Steve (01:13):
absolutely, year end special. Yes,
Unknown (01:16):
it's a year end special. We will not have any
elves or or Santos runningaround on this one, and no
singing Steve this time and butwe're joined by a couple of
couple of great colleagues ofSteve's from McCormick group,
the McCormick group, and we'veGot an action packed
(01:41):
presentation for you all today.
Episode for you today. We'regoing to we're going to talk
about market, what was, whatwill be, talk about different
observations on how, how firmscan improve their their their
batting average, if you will,with with recruits, and how to
support those recruits a littlebit, and a very special bit at
(02:04):
the right, at the end, where wetalk about give it gives. Give a
short, short, punchy list of ofsome ideas for you all to
consider. So with that, whydon't we go ahead and kick it
off with some briefintroductions, and we'll start
with Sadia.
(02:27):
Thank you, Murray, so much andSteve, congratulations on a
successful year with thepodcast. I'm Sadia Sultan. I'm
based in Houston. I'm looking atand exploring the opportunities
for the McCormick group in theHouston and then sort of greater
Texas market. I've had a careerof over 20 years in public and
(02:50):
government affairs with a focusmostly on energy. And then I've
been doing legal recruiting fortwo to three years as well. And
I worked with my colleagues, Roband Steve and we cover our
respective markets. We've takenthe McCormick group a little bit
outside of DC into into Texasand New York. Thank you, Murray
(03:10):
and I look forward toparticipating. Yeah, great, Rob.
Thank you Murray and thank youSteve for inviting us. My name
is Rob Verga. I joined McCormickin April of 22 after a long
career in legal services. First,I was a structured finance
attorney, then I worked as acompliance manager, and then
(03:31):
finally, as a conflicts attorneyat two big law firms, big law
firms, and I enjoy what I do. Ilove recruiting, because I get
to help people, and I get tosolve problems. I get to put
candidates in a better place,maybe get some more of what they
deserve in terms ofcompensation, etc, and I get to
(03:53):
help law firms fill a need,build a business. So I love what
I do and looking forward to theyear ahead.
Absolutely. And while you're aman who needs no introduction,
especially on this podcast,Steve, why don't you go ahead
and introduce yourself onceagain. Okay,
Steve (04:10):
so I'm Steve Nelson. I've been with the McCormick group
now 28 years and counting, andbasically run the gamut and
everything in the legal space.
You know, worked on partners,groups, government lawyers,
people from the hill, but thenalso work on the high level
professional management searchesas well. So it's, you know, it's
(04:37):
been a varied career, and veryhappy to be doing this podcast
with you. Murray,
Unknown (04:45):
well and I with you, Steve. We've had a long, a long
relationship and a fruitful one.
So thank you. And I will tellthe listeners that if you want
to understand what's going on inyour respective markets, yes.
Body I call, give Rob a call,give Steve a call. There these
folks have fingers on the pulselike no other group that I that
I've seen, and I've seen a lotof groups so and I really mean
(05:08):
that, and if you aren't on theirmailing list for their
respective intelligence reportsthat they send out, please,
please look for the emailaddress in the show notes and
you please sign up. Just sendthem a note. Let them know you
want to be on their mailinglist. Alright, so with that, oh,
(05:29):
and I'll introduce myself. I'mMurray Coffey. I'm the principal
and founder of M Coffey. We're awe're a law firm consultancy,
working in all kinds ofdifferent areas related to
marketing, business development,professional development,
business planning, etc. And andformer CMO, for, I don't know
(05:52):
what, Steve 20 plus years so, sojust, I've always been involved
in recruiting, so that was kindof a natural match. Natural
match here. So why don't we? Whydon't we talk about what's going
what's happened in our markets,respect your respective markets,
what you're seeing as maybeemerging trends in the markets
(06:16):
that you're in. And I know,Steve, you'll kind of talk,
maybe about some of the nationaltrends as well. But this time,
let's, let's kick off with withSadia talking about the markets
that she's focusing in, whatshe's seeing, what's going on,
and what you're kind of, what,what's sort of on the horizon.
(06:37):
Thank you, Murray, so much.
Steve will talk about thenational trends, and the
national trends will, of course,have an impact on our respective
markets. In Texas, I think hewould agree that you're going
to, you see the same sort of,you have lateral hiring, sort of
down as compared to the sametime last year and same time as
in 2021 and you know, some ofthe sister event by the
(07:01):
corporate practice slow down,and a little bit of slow down on
the regulatory, regularregulatory practice fronts. Now
Texas specifically, I would sayso we have Washington, DC,
obviously, where the McCormickgroup is headquartered. Once you
get out of DC, you know you'relooking the states are like
(07:22):
industrial hub, hub states,that's what I consider them. So
in Texas, you know, with withthe focus on energy, health
care, you know, other spaces,you're going to see that both
companies moving into Texas,whether they're coming from
California or they're comingfrom overseas, you're going to
(07:43):
see that that company movementdrive the demand for, you know,
opening of new offices for thelaw firms. You're going to see
more hiring in that regard.
You're also, because it's anindustrial hub state, you're
going to see the same trends yousee in those industries. You
(08:04):
know, for example, energy movingfrom oil and gas to renewables.
You're going to see the demandshift as well for hiring, you
know, maybe less oil and gaslawyers, more renewable lawyers,
more you know, energy storagelawyers, for example. So that's
what you get at that statelevel. And in Texas, you're
(08:24):
going to see those trends aroundenergy and and health care.
Texas on its own, if it was itsown standalone economy, would be
depending on the oil priceanywhere from 10th to 14th. So
even in a slow year, you'regoing to see growth in Texas,
and that's why you see so manyoffices, including not so many
(08:47):
law firms, including not theworld's largest law firms,
opening offices in Austin,Dallas, Houston. Thank you.
Murray,just a quick question. Sonia,
yeah, I am in the Texas markets,and I'm in Dallas, specifically,
we saw what I would call sort ofa disruption of, of the sort of
the the big five firms in in inTexas, lot of, lot of new firms
(09:14):
coming in competition. It madethings frothy for a while. Is
that settling out a little bit,or is that still going on?
We have followed the trends forthe last two years. I would
invite Steve to tell me if yousaw any other trends beyond the
two years. But Murray, I thinkgenerally speaking, you're
(09:38):
seeing you're just seeingincreased competition. I hope
I'm answering your question theway you're looking at it, but
you'll you're seeing, likesmaller firms opening offices in
areas where maybe bigger firmswere nominating. You're also
seeing, you know, you're alsoseeing the Texas firms open more
offices outside of Texas. Yes.
So you see that kind of movementin different ways. We're
(10:02):
actually talking to a firm rightnow that has a significant, had
a significant energy presence inNew York and California, and is
now trying to add personnel tothe Texas side, but on the
energy transition side,transition interesting? Yeah.
Interesting, yeah. I think thetransition side is gonna, is
(10:23):
gonna pick up speed over overtime.
Steve (10:26):
Don't talk, yeah. Let me add just a couple of points to
what Saudi is saying, because acouple things we've noticed. One
is, I think that the there was aphrase I would say in that five
year period where the bignational firms. And you, you all
know who they are. We're comingin, overpaying for talent and
(10:47):
just grabbing people from mostlythe established Texas firms, but
others that that has sloweddown. There's still some of that
going on, but that slowed down.
The other thing we're we'reseeing is, and this is, and
Saudi referred to this. I thinkthere are a lot of smaller firms
and law sort of second 100firms, and even smaller than
(11:07):
that, that are really increasingtheir efforts in Texas, and
particularly with lower ratepractices that the one of the
national trends we're seeing isthe bifurcation is even more
distinct now between firms thatare the partners routinely
charge well over $1,000 an hourand firms that are charged that
(11:30):
are happy to charge as low as$600 an hour for partner time.
And so I think that that'screated their own hubs of
activity. And the other thingthat we see in Texas is the
number the percentage ofmovement of groups is higher
than in other parts of thecountry. So you're seeing two
(11:53):
partners, you know, two partnersand a council, two partners and
a couple of associates, etc,maybe even three or four
partners moving from firm tofirm. And so that is much, much
more common in Texas than atleast in DC. I can't really
speak to New York as well. MaybeRob can help me on that, but,
but, but that's something thatwe're seeing, and it's generally
(12:14):
a trend, I think, nationally,but particularly so in Texas.
Unknown (12:22):
Speaking of New York and Rob, Rob, why don't you give
us your view on the market?
Thanks,Murray, New York, I think, has
slowed a little bit. Itdefinitely is driven by the
capital markets. As Stevementioned in the past, New York
drives and lives and dies withthe capital markets and the
stock market, the bond markets,etc, and they're they've tended
(12:44):
to be frozen up a little bitthis year. We also know it's
been the year of efficiencycoming from technology firms
like meta, etc, so and thetechnology firms were laying off
a little bit so that, coupledwith the capital markets frozen
up, has resulted in the secondhalf for the year, I noticed has
(13:06):
gotten a little slower,especially compared to the first
half of 23 litigation, I thinkhas been strong. A lot of firms
are looking for litigators. Itcontinues to be strong. I guess
they say counter cyclical. And Ithink I'm hoping the Fed's done
with raising rates. Hopefully 24will things? Will we a lot more
(13:29):
looser? I'm more sanguine on 24I think there'll be more IPOs,
etc, maybe more private equitydeals, which tends to drive
business throughout the legalcommunity.
Steve (13:46):
Yeah. So let me, let me add a little bit more on the
national spotlight in terms ofthe numbers. The numbers that
we're seeing is that the partnerlevel, partner numbers
nationally, and this is prettymuch true in DC as well, down
about 4% for 2022 which was therecord year for lateral moves.
(14:06):
So from that standpoint, 2023while it may be off a little
bit, it's still a strong year,and I agree with Rob, it's been
particularly weaker since, likeJune, July, and slower than it
was in the early part of theyear. So I think that's that's
down, where we see it moreoften. Obviously, associate
(14:27):
hiring has been down, given thestate of the corporate market,
etc, but also less Councilhiring. I think the statistics
are showing around 20% fewer. Ithink the the firms have have
made a lot of their successionplan hiring that they that
(14:48):
definitely was caused by COVIDand some of the retirements that
occurred during that timeperiod. I think they've done
those, and they're a little lesswilling to do it in a more
challenging. Economic time.
Unknown (15:03):
Yeah, it's 2024. Is going to be a an interesting
year, and I hope, you know, Ihope an active year. I'm seeing
more activity what I do, sothat's, that's good, right?
Steve (15:14):
And, yeah, everything we're seeing is that the
corporate market is going topick up. So that will be
probably positive
Unknown (15:20):
for our industry. So let's shift our focus now. And
we have a, we have a an augustgroup here on this on this
podcast, who have some uniqueinsights into what firms are
doing that are that aresuccessful, what firms are doing
that are creating somechallenges in terms of their
(15:41):
their lateral recruiting, andmaybe we can get each of you to
share some thoughts on what is,what what you've seen as best
practices, where you've seenfirms fumble, and maybe some,
some ways that that firms canimprove what, what they're
doing, just in general, becauseI know it's a, it's a, it's a,
(16:04):
it's a tough thing. This, thisletter, recruiting is a, is a
tough thing, and there's a lotof hands on it. So it's a, it's
tricky. And so why don't we getstarted on this one with Steve?
You have, you have the, probablythe broadest view of of what's
going on, and going back 28years. So
Steve (16:23):
yeah, well, there's, there's definitely a lot to
unpack there, but I would saythe first thing that I think
that firms have to recognize islateral on portable business is
not what it used to be, andfirms have done a better job of
institutionalizing theirclients, and they do a very good
(16:44):
job of rewarding attorneys whoplay a role in both both client
development and client service,and therefore the idea that many
lawyers can pick up and moveeven a a great deal of their
(17:05):
client base, yeah, without anykind of difficulty, is it just
is not. It's not very common.
And so we see the same thingbeing repeated over and over
again, with somebody who isresponsible at their current
firm is compensated, um, attheir current for according to
what they what is regarded astheir originations or their
(17:27):
managed work, but that if theywere to pick up and move, they
would not have nearly that kindof business. But those people
are valuable. Can be valuable toa new firm, particularly if you
look at it from the long haul,like what's going to happen year
two, year three, year four. So Ijust think the firms that are
looking at this with a moreholistic view as to what the
(17:50):
contribution of the lawyer willbe will do better than the firms
that just sort of look at thenumber and start to just look at
this as a bunch of numbers. Sothat would be my first point
that I would make. Second pointI would make is it's all in for
a lot of firms. It's all incrafting the opportunity. What's
the opportunity for the lateral?
(18:13):
Not what is it? What's in it forus? But what is it that the
lateral will gain if they gothrough our platform, what is it
that they will gain, that theymay not be getting where they
are right now? And so it'sreally to tell that story, both
about the practice group thatyou're hiring into and the firm
is all and then the third, I'mgoing to leave this more to
(18:36):
Saudi and Rob, but it's, it's amatter of having your process,
and, you know, having a smoothprocess, predictable, no
surprises, and just it. That's,you know, that's, I would say,
the exception, rather than
Unknown (18:52):
the no surprises. Yeah, right, yeah, exactly. What do
you think about that?
Murray, so, you know, Steveobviously on the money in terms
of what we're seeing overall. Iwould just add to that. And by
the way, what, what Stevedescribes, you know, generally,
is the the same picture forTexas and is going to be for New
(19:14):
York as well. We tried toemphasize to the client that,
you know, obviously don't focusthat hard on portables. More to
what Steve is saying, focus on,you know, what the candidate can
bring. There's more value thanjust the portables. In that
regard, Murray, we we advisethem on a comprehensive business
(19:38):
plan process. And so, in a way,we help both the candidate and
the client, sort of, if you, Iguess you know, you could say,
articulate why that candidate isa good piece for the firm, and
it goes both ways, why thecandidates a good fit for the
firm and why the firm is a goodfit for the candidate in terms
ofsuccess, is not do. This is not
(19:58):
the right, this is not the No,no,
no. That's clarify that, becauseit's a two way street. Yeah,
yeah. Murray, that'sa great question. You know, we,
we help candidates put togethera business plan so that there's,
there's sort of a, almost aforecast in, you know, what the
first six months or year willlook like. It helps both the
(20:20):
firm and the candidate sort offrame, you know, what the
contribution could be. And ittakes the focus a little bit off
the portables, a little bit moreonto the overall value, places a
little bit more on the overallvalue that the candidate brings.
I think it actually helps botharticulate both sides,
articulate their vision in termsof process. And you know, Rob
(20:43):
will add to this as well. Look,this is like any other working
item, if you have a point personon the inside and somebody both,
you know, within the internalrecruiting division and the
practice looking for the talent,working hand in hand with us,
working regularly with us, andlooking at the candidates as we
(21:09):
bring them. You know, withoutany hiccups, you're just going
to have a smoother process.
You're going to allow us to gothrough the market, reach into
our deep depths, whether it'smarket Intel or what we know on
the background of candidates,and we can smoothly Bring,
(21:29):
bring, sort of, it's an ongoingassembly line, almost, of
candidates, and as long asthere's internal coordination
and interest, and I don't wantto steal the thunder From the
end of our podcast, but you'llthe process will be a lot more
smoother, and it'll be asuccessful placement.
Well, great points. Rob, what doyou what are your thoughts on
(21:53):
what you're seeing that firmsare doing ways they could
improve, etc.
Yeah, I just want to follow upon what Steve and sadly, they
said it very well. What, whatthe the county law firms need to
do to improve it? I I'd like tojust delve into a little bit
about that process, part,because I think it's so
(22:13):
important. Steve and Saadiamentioned that they can improve
the process. What does thatreally mean? Like Saudi was
saying, somebody who owns it upthe partner who owns the lateral
hire. They're assigned to it.
They have an interest in makingit work. They're available for
questions. They own the process.
(22:34):
They're the point person there.
They can chat with you whenquestions come in. You can meet
with them once every two weeks.
Let's say they're available.
They make it a priority. Theyown the process. I would also
say law firms should really givea lot of thought before they
bring us in as to whatspecifically they're looking
for. Is this a replacementpartner, or is it building a new
(22:57):
book? If it is, if it's thelatter, obviously it's a lot
more analysis that is involved,and a lot more questions are
going to come in from thecandidates, etc. So that's
important. And do they have thesupport staff for if they're
going to build a new practice?
(23:17):
For example, the support groupslike tax, is that ready, ready
to go and willing and able tosupport the new practice? Have
you thought about that? And thenfinally, focus really, and if
this dovetails and follows fromthe first two, try to smooth out
the process so it's muchshorter. Try to reduce the
process has become 3456, monthsnow, try to make it a little
(23:42):
shorter,
Steve (23:44):
right on that point Rob.
Rob mentions having the pointperson. In reality, I think for
most firms you gotta really,actually have to have two point
persons. One is the partner, andit's critical, and I'm gonna get
back to that. But it's alsosomebody with some real
authority who is in therecruiting staff, the recruiting
director, or a manager, somebodywho's got the ability to get
(24:07):
answers and to move thoseprocesses along. And so you
really need the combination ofboth. I think what we run into
sometimes is we have a really wemight have a really good
recruiting director who's, who'sworking with us, very dedicated,
understands, but invariably,questions will come up about the
practice, about, okay, what youknow, what is the what's the
(24:32):
client base? What, what are thepossible conflicts, things that
are really important, and thatand that recruiting director
doesn't necessarily have theanswers and needs to be able to
contact that, that key partnerand get those answers. And if it
goes, if you're you know, yougot a candidate, and the
candidates asking a bunch ofquestions about the practice,
and you're going two weeksbefore you get an answer that
(24:54):
doesn't put your firm in a goodlight. So all of. What Rob and
Saudi has said is, is absolutelytrue. It's, it's, it is a bunch
of different aspects that needto be in line and work, work,
you know, progressively
Unknown (25:13):
and when I've worked, and I have worked very closely,
as Steve knows, with recruitingteams at different firms that
I've been at, both on theassociate recruiting, you know,
the newbies coming in from lawschool, and also on the lateral,
probably more on the lateralside. What I talk about is, this
is a this is a sales. The salesrules, you know, the selling is
(25:37):
what we're doing here. And thatflips the script, and it makes
them think a little differently.
And to Saudi, his point aboutthe about sort of having this,
this mutuality of understanding,if we can, if we can move that,
move this to a, to a usingtechniques that people use in
sales, not necessarily, youknow, pipeline management and
all that kind of stuff, but, butsort of the the posture in
(25:59):
sales. I think that that canhelp tremendously, and it helps
contextualize it for thepartners. It helps contextualize
it for the recruiting folks.
So I want to go back tosomething that we heard from
(26:21):
Sadia, that I think is, is isinteresting, and that is this
idea of the business plan, orbusiness planning, getting the
getting the getting the lateralrecruits through this arduous
process is, as we've heard, achallenge. The other challenge
that happens then is for thelateral and the lateral to be
(26:44):
successful at their new firm. Myexperience is that some are
highly successful. Othersaren't. And I think there's some
ways that firms can probablyhelp their incoming laterals in
ways that maybe they're notdoing today. And I know Steve,
you've seen just years and yearsand all kinds of different firms
(27:05):
and all kinds of differentcandidates come in with
different levels of success. Sowhat have you seen that's been
on, you know, on the positiveside, that that you've seen
firms do that have helped theirlateral recruits as they're
coming, as they as they'resettling it at the firm,
Steve (27:21):
right? It's interesting, if you look at the historical
basis with regard to a businessplan, you know, when we started
that, you know, sort of process,it was really focused on
government laterals. Governmentlaterals needed a business plan,
because they had, they werestarting from zero. They had to
explain, you know, what theirvalue was, why come to them so
(27:43):
forth that started the process?
You know, that was 25 years ago,but I'd say in recent years,
last 10 years, more and morefirms are requesting, sometimes
demanding, the business plan forpeople who are already in
practice and have a multimillion dollar book, the idea
being that they are realizingthat they've got to prepare for
(28:04):
success. So we see the bestmethodology with regard to a
business plan. It starts in therecruiting process, but goes on
to the, you know, theintegration process as well,
which is, starts with the, youknow, with the candidates
business plan, usually, beforethe the offer is made, there is
(28:27):
a an opportunity for the firm toactually annotate that business
and throw in their ideas, someideas that where they can see
what we can help collateral.
This is this idea of you'recontinuing to sell the
opportunity to the lateral. Sothe best practice is to have a
combination plan that then thatcombination plan can become the
(28:51):
basis for your integration plan,because all of it's there, the
candidates that you hope to comeover, candidates that you can
work together on, candidatesthat neither of you have, but
because of the combinedstrengths of your practices, you
can go out and attract so to me,that's really important. It's a
really a living document thatcan be the basis for review, you
(29:16):
know, every 90 days in terms ofhow lateral is doing, what we
need to do more what the firmneeds to do more, because I can
tell you that the lateralsfailure and success is as much
dependent on the firm as it ison the lab themselves.
Unknown (29:31):
Yeah, and great point.
And I hope for the recruiters,the internal recruiters, and the
heads of practices that I know.
Listen to this podcast. Pleaselisten. My experience is
absolutely squares with withSteve's experience from from the
internal side, the more you cando to help support those, those
(29:53):
laterals in the first really, inthe first six months, maybe
beyond that. But the first sixmonths are critical. Um. So we
always, for those of us, thoseof you who have been listening
to the other episodes of thispodcast, you will know that we
try to inject a little bit offun, a little bit of little bit
of humor into our our episodes,and this one is no different.
(30:18):
And our friends at McCormackgroup have prepared 10 Ways to
Lose Your candidate. And listenup, folks, because this, this is
this is this is real, and theseare, this is this is born out
from hard won experience. Sowe're going to start out with
(30:39):
number 10, Saudia. Want tohandle that. Thank
you. Murray number 10 is refuseto share relevant financial
information. To me, this is anissue of trust, if, if the
client is asking the candidateto share financials from there,
from his or her career, when thecandidate asks the client or the
(31:00):
firm to share relevant financialinformation about the firm.
Often we'll see the client say,oh, but this is confidential. We
don't feel comfortable sharingthis or this piece of
information. Please share thatinformation with the candidate,
because it's going to be a bigpart of the reason why he or she
decides to join your firm.
(31:22):
Excellent. Point number nine.
Steve,
Steve (31:26):
alright, so number nine is back, check the candidate,
and what that what I mean bythat is, go, you know, you know,
for you check with somebody whomight be at another law firm
that worked with that candidate,or even at the firm that they're
leaving, which is amazinglyhappened, this is a violation of
confidentiality, pure andsimple. And it's amazing that
(31:48):
lawyers who would know the valueof confidentiality violate this
more often than than you wouldthink. And so it's really
important to to keep that inmind, because if that, if that
gets back to the candidate, notonly will he or she not come to
your firm, he or she will telleverybody they know about what
(32:10):
happened at the firm and howthey can't be trusted. And then,
then, in that case, you'reyou're toast,
Unknown (32:15):
you are toast.
Absolutely no cinnamon, allright, number eight. Rob,
number eight is require a worldtour, pre COVID. This was
literally a world tour, but nowit's in, we're in a zoom world.
So it's a world, world zoomtour. And again, this is what we
(32:37):
were saying before it goes backto it. It's just a months long
process, the recruiting process,has become too long, and this is
another way to lose a candidateby keep requiring them to meet
one more person.
(33:00):
Nope, I lost it. I lost thehearing.
Rob, I hear you. Okay, now Ihear Murray. I can't hear
Murray, yeah,okay, Murray, I think you're on
mute. Allright, number seven. Steve
Nelson,
Steve (33:20):
all right, so it's number seven is stop selling during due
diligence. That's this isoccurring when you're in due
diligence and you start to bringin people to really question the
lateral about clientrelationships and their history
and why they move to a certainfirm. You know, sometimes that
(33:41):
sounds like the SpanishInquisition and that that never
goes well. So the idea is thatit should all be part of a
discussion as to, you know, thefact that this person can be an
asset to the firm, but we haveto, obviously do our job and
make sure that you know that weunderstand the practice and the
nuances of practice,
Unknown (34:04):
all right? And number seven, which is quite germane to
this time of the year, Sadia,so number six is, ignore the
candidates year bonus. And this,to us, is an issue of timing. So
remember that you the hiringfirm is thinking, Okay, I want
to bring on the candidate inJanuary. Don't forget that the
candidate has their own timing,and the year end bonus is one of
(34:28):
the drivers for the timing ofany possible switch. So you may
say you want to hire in month x,and the candidate's not going
anywhere until he or she hasreceived a year end bonus, which
could be a month later, twomonths later, after they receive
that bonus, they're able to takea series of steps to formally
(34:49):
join your firm,all right. And number five, and
this is only be answered by. RobYes,
something near and dear to myheart, conflicts checking. I
think firms take forever tocheck conflicts is a definite
(35:11):
way to lose a candidate, really.
I urge firms to use commonsense. Here is the lateral
corporate or litigation. Can Doyou really have to go back five
years? You could really threeyears is more often than not as
sufficient. So you could reallyuse common sense, save time
(35:32):
here, and really try to expeditethe conflicts checking process,
right? And number four, onewould not think we would need to
admonish people on this but, butwe do. Steve, yeah,
Steve (35:49):
so I know of at least two firms that are continuing, and
these are big, big, wellrespected firms that continue to
ask lateral partner candidatesfor their law school transcripts
that that that, you know can beborderline insulting, and
particularly for those whodidn't do so well in law school.
(36:10):
But you know the idea that thatyou can't trust the 15 or so
years they've been in privatepractice, in terms of figuring
out, are they good lawyers are.
They're not good lawyers. And togo back to the law school
transcripts and see how they didin their first year towards
class, you know, that justseems, that seems ridiculous to
me and to many candidates. And Idefinitely had candidates when
(36:33):
they've been asked that, whenthey've been asked that
question, basically say, Well,now I know more about this law
firm, and I'm not liking whatI'm here.
Unknown (36:45):
Wow, just wow. All right, going back to some of our
earlier points in the podcastabout process. Rob number three,
yes, this is a another way tolose a candidate fail to
designate a point person lawfirms really have to when
they're doing a lateral search,dedicate partner who can be
(37:08):
responsive, who's available, whoowns the process and can answer
questions quickly andaccurately, so that the
recruiting process moves At aswift pace.
And on a related note, Sadia,number two is make sure that
point person is always busy. Soit's good that the firm has
(37:29):
designated a point person. Andagain, we recommend a point
person within the internalrecruiting function and one with
the practice area making thehire, but you have to make sure
that point person also has aprocess, whether it's recurring
calls some sort of, you know,game plan around when to see
candidates how to work withtheir own internal practice to
(37:53):
keep the process moving along.
So make sure there's a processaround it,
and now, in great anticipation,we look for the number one way
you can lose your candidate.
Steve (38:10):
Steve, right? And that's basically just to ignore the
candidate and his or herrecruiter. It's amazing how when
we get towards the end of aprocess, a firm will go, will go
to radio silence with regard tocandidate. Obviously, there's
some issues. Sometimes it's justa matter of the key people are
(38:31):
going on vacation, or, you know,there's something going on
that's a explainable delay. Andrather than just picking up the
phone and calling the recruiteror calling the candidate and
saying, you know, we're reallystill interested. You know, we
just run into a snag and, youknow, we'll, we'll get this
resolved as soon as possible.
The firm feels like it's almostlike, you know, silence is
(38:51):
golden. Well, silence isn'tgolden into the situation and
will only lead to the candidatewondering, you know, what kind
of firm will I join?
Unknown (39:04):
Well, to those people who are involved, the internal
folks who are involved in inlateral recruiting, I hope you
listened closely here, and alsofor you partners who are who are
in charge of lateral recruiting,or recruiting for your, your
your particular department ofpractice. These are all hard won
lessons. Each one of these isbased on real experience by each
(39:27):
of the recruiters that are onthis call of this podcast today.
And with that, we end Season Oneof Steve's rules, Steve, it's
been, been a great, a great, agreat run, and it's not a run
that's going to end anytimesoon. We're going to be keeping,
keeping this going into 2024,season two. So stay tuned. We'll
(39:50):
have lots of guest stars, as Ialways do on season two, and we
will never jump the jump, jumpthe shark. And that's really it
for me. Steve. Sadia Rob, anyfinal thoughts, questions,
ideas, justthank you very much Steve and
Murray for inviting us and HappyHolidays to all.
(40:12):
Thank Thank you very much Murrayand Steve for having us
participate today and echo whatRob said. I hope you all enjoy
the holiday season.
Steve (40:23):
Yep, and happy holidays.
And don't forget those bonuses.
Good
Unknown (40:29):
bonuses for everybody.
All right, take care, folks.
Thank you. Take care. Everyone.
Have a good day. Bye. Bye.
Again.
Rob, please, by the way, Murray,Murray, Rob does this internally
too. He'll just, he'll be gonewithin like a second of
(40:51):
something ending.
Steve (40:55):
All right, I think that works. I assume that you can
work over the time when you lostyour video, your audio,
Unknown (41:01):
yeah, yeah. We'll, we'll, we'll be able to be able
to to edit that out and makesure it sounds okay, and if I
need to re record a little bit,I will. But I think what,
what happened, by the way, Ithink that we I
have a I have a call, I have acough button on my on my
microphone, and I was coughing,and I just before I cough button
(41:21):
and then, yeah, sowe're not podcast stars like
you, so I don't know if youheard us. Well,
these, this, this microphone isgreat. I use it on all of my
Zoom calls and everything. Andit's, there's like, 150 bucks,
not a whole lot. Oh, wow. Soundsreally, really good. Well,
(41:44):
you have the best, like, sort oflaid back but engaging podcast
voice. Well, thank you. You'reso perfect for this.
It is. You've turnedour Steve into a very perfect
podcaster as well.
He, no, he comes in. Steve comesin with uh.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!