Leveraging government service into a lucrative career in government relations can be done. But, it can be tricky to turn your knowledge and connections into a career path. This podcast will be especially informative for those folks currently in Capitol Hill contemplating your next move. We start out the second season of the acclaimed Steve's Rules podcast series with a fast paced discussion featuring McCormick group principals David Ris and Tim Horgan. Join Steve and his colleagues as they share lessons learned in this high stakes area of executive recruiting with a special deep dive for those coming out of government service from Capitol Hill and beyond. We take an insider look at what candidates can expect whether they are pursuing a position in-house, with an association or a multi client practice.
Episode Notes:
Email Steve and his guests:
Steve Nelson snelson@tmg-dc.com
David Ris dris@tmg-dc.com
Tim Horgan thorgan@tmg-dc.com
Article Referenced in Podcast:
Building a Better Mousetrap: A Model for a Lawyer’s Business Plan
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules, periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of M Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professionals into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others. Hey,Steve, welcome to Season Two of
Steve's rules, we are in we madeit, we made it, we made it over.
(01:13):
Hurray. Listen in the world ofpodcasting, getting to season
two is sort of the the make orbreak for a lot of podcasts. So
a lot of podcasts are abandonedafter the first season, and we
have a plan for, you know, worlddomination over the next 1520,
years. So so I'm, I'm excitedand welcome into 2024, and we've
(01:37):
got a great, really interestingconversation today on a unique
slice of the executiverecruiting world with two of our
leading experts and colleaguesof yours. So let me turn it over
to you, Steve, you set thetable, introduce your
colleagues, and let's get intoit all
Steve (01:58):
right. So one of the hallmarks of our company, the
McCormick group, is that we havedone a lot of work for many, at
least 20 years, in thegovernment relations space, and
that is primarily with lawfirms, increasing number of
lobbying for firms, but alsocorporations and trade
(02:22):
associations. So it's been, it'sa big practice for us, and I
wanted to introduce two of ourprincipals that work in that
area, Dave Riss and Tim Horgan.
Dave, why don't you give alittle bit of an introduction to
yourself, and then we'll haveTim do the same.
Dave Ris (02:40):
Thanks, Steve. So my world is, is placing candidates
who are both attorneys andlobbyists, and infrequently they
wear both hats, which is pretty,which is very normal in DC. The
candidates come from the hill.
It could be member staff. Theycould be committee staff,
certainly from the governmentagencies, primarily, but not
(03:03):
exclusively, politicalappointees. And of course, we
also work with candidates whoare already downtown. They're
already out in the privatesector. And then the second
thing, a big part of my world isrepresenting candidates that is
helping those candidates totransition to the private
(03:26):
sector. It's a situation where,normally I clients ask me to
find talent. I like to flip theprocess on its head, and instead
find the talent and then callthe call the clients, and it is
still an employer pays the fee.
(03:46):
Kind of arrangement, obviouslywe, we do it on a highly
selective basis.
Tim Horton (03:55):
Great Tim. My name is Tim Horgan, and my my role is
quite similar to Dave's, with afocus on really Association and
nonprofits as clients as well ascorporations. You know,
particularly those that have youknow, an in house team most of
the time that's in DC, and thenmulti client firms, you know,
(04:20):
both law and independentlobbying firms, I would do less
than Dave probably workingdirectly with kind of the the
actual law firm itself, on theon the lawyer side, and do
represent on a select basis, youknow, when it makes good sense,
and we, at Times, collaborate,you know, in that effort as
well. Yeah,
Unknown (04:42):
well, that's great, and you're both in the DC metro
region,
Dave Ris (04:47):
that's correct.
Unknown (04:50):
Great. Both, both our native want to get us kicked off
on some of our topics here.
Steve (04:56):
Okay, so, um, you know, let's talk a little bit about.
Yes, 2024 it's an election year.
You know, there is obviouslywe're not going to get a lot of
major legislation done,certainly by what we're reading
in the press about certain bigissues that are out on the table
now. But it'd be good to getyour perspective on, you know,
(05:19):
what it's going to be like forthe people who are, you know, at
on the hill or at an agencyright now? What's their
prospects? What's the timing ofthat? So I'll turn to the first,
I guess. I'll first ask Tim alittle bit about what he sees.
Tim Horton (05:35):
Yeah, so I think that it may not be a significant
factor for a large percentage oftalent. And, you know, it's
probably important for us tokind of identify the talent we
work with. We're mostly going tobe working with senior level
staff, you know. So think of aChief of Staff, Chief Counsel,
(05:55):
Legislative Director, you know,in the Senate, if their member
happens to be retiring at theend of this year, we do find
often that they want to servethat term out with their member,
particularly at a senior levelrole. But most others, if it's
time, if they've reached their20 years, and if they're
(06:18):
interested in making the move, Idon't know, is they're going to
let the election year kind ofget in the way of that. And I
think it will be on a very, youknow, select basis. So that's
kind of macro level myexperience on the hillside, and
I know Dave would have moreinsight on, you know, some of
(06:38):
the top agency talent. Yeah,
Dave Ris (06:43):
right, yeah. And so I think that in my 15 years plus,
of doing this through in everyelection cycle, every two years,
I think we do see a little bitof a slowdown the end. And this
year, of course, it seems likethe election cycle started
sometime in July, or maybe evenearlier 2023 but I think Tim's
(07:09):
also correct in that thetalented people at the top
level, they're always in demand,whether it be an election cycle
or not. And also, one of thethings that that we find is, you
know, our candidates tend to bethose who are who can work both
(07:31):
sides of the aisle, and so thepolitical aspects of it don't
tend to get in the way as much.
Tim Horton (07:40):
I think another point here too is that while a
really talented senior staffermay not technically be looking
when someone like us or otherscall them, you know, it's our
role not to talk them into doingsomething they don't want to do,
but to really enthusiasticallypresent to them a compelling
(08:03):
opportunity, right? And sosometimes it isn't that they're
looking it's that they'represented with something that
isn't going to be there if theywait six months,
Steve (08:14):
right? And I'll add one thing to that is, is that even
though you know the the big hotbutton issues might not be. You
know, moving through Congressthis year, there's a lot of
issues of importance tobusiness, whether it's in
healthcare, energy,infrastructure, whatever,
there's a lot of issues outthere that will be acted on, and
(08:36):
there'll be activity. And sotherefore, in a particular for a
particular person, there's valuenow, not just waiting until the
end of the year. That said, I'dlike to get Dave's perspective a
little bit on if you're, youknow, if you're coming out of
the out of the hill or anagency, you know, what is it,
(08:59):
you know, what is it that youprovide to these people in terms
of the advice and getting themready for going into the private
sector.
Dave Ris (09:09):
Yes, and I, and I always like to have
conversations with the with thestaff, whether they're ready to
leave or not. But I want to, Iwant to talk to them about what
they need to do when they dostart that transition. I get a
lot of calls from from folks whoare saying, you know, I'm
(09:29):
thinking about leaving, not thiscycle, but maybe a couple of
years from now. What do I needto be thinking about? And the
first thing that they need tothink about is the ethics, apps,
aspects and they do need to talkto the Ethics Council as soon as
they are ready to make thattransition. And the other things
(09:49):
that I suggest that they do isstart keeping a list of who, of
who is coming to see them. Youknow, who from downtown is is
stopping in. Right andrecognize, you know, take, take
a take a measurement. Who arethe ones that you like? What?
(10:11):
What is it about them that theydo that puts them at the top of
a list? And, you know, thinkabout who is, is, are the folks
that that that you really wantto emulate, and what are they
doing? So that's that's always agood litmus, but that keeping
that list of who has come in tosee you is incredibly valuable
(10:34):
when you make that transitionoff of the hill.
Tim Horton (10:39):
Yeah, I can just add a couple things. Yeah. I mean, I
think that's great in terms of alist. If this person is has any
thoughts of going multi client,keep that list in industry as
well, right? So you want thefirms are great because it gives
(10:59):
you a sense of culture,chemistry. But at the end of the
day, those firms that you maymeet with are going to want to
know who you can deliver to themas clients. So So you want to
really kind of be keeping youknow both of those. The only
other element I share with folksthat are thinking about kind of
staying in their world isthere's really three places for
(11:21):
you to go. You can go to anassociation, you can go
corporate in house or multiclient. And there's really one
distinct difference that we seemost often, association or
corporate in house, there reallyhas to be an opening. Someone's
leaving the organization'screating a new role, which means
at a senior level, you know,those may not be readily
(11:45):
available on a you know, on aregular basis, multi client is
the exact opposite. It's aproactive approach to your next
move, and if you package andpresent your brand and your
capabilities effectively, youwill get meetings with multi
client firms.
Unknown (12:06):
And so, yeah, I want to ask a question about
that multi multi firm, multiclient firm, you know, Steve, my
experience is in, is in workingwith lateral partners coming
into law firms, and we alwaystalk about the book, the book,
the book, the book. And I thinkyou and I have have sort of put
a hole in, you know, this bigdiscussion around the book. It's
(12:29):
important, but it's not the onlything, right. But, you know,
Tim, when somebody's coming inafter 20 years on the right, and
they are a senior staffer, andthey're connected. You know,
they're, they're what they haveis a, is a, is a, is a armful of
connections. They don't have anarm full of business that a like
a law firm partner might bringin, right? What's the, what is
(12:50):
the dynamic, then, for thatperson now transitioning into
this, in many circumstances, eatwhat you kill environment, when
they've been in a very differentenvironment, and their currency
is different than the currencythat they're actually have to
generate.
Tim Horton (13:11):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I've got one thing
to add, and then I think Davewill do a better job than I
talking about the business planprocess, which is significant.
When someone comes off the hill,you know, they're considered an
investment higher by these multiclient firms, and that's
understood if they're coming offthe hill. And then I let Dave
(13:31):
talk about business plans,because he's quite good at it.
But that's where the candidate,with guidance from us, you know,
presents via the business plan,why they're a good investment.
Dave Ris (13:47):
And yeah, and I always ask my candidates to write a
business plan, even if they'renot looking to go to a multi
client firm. And the reason isthis, the business plan is
incredibly effective at helpingthe candidate to understand and
(14:08):
then articulate their value. Ihave had conversations with
many, many candidates that I didnot place who came back to me
and said, David, if it wasn'tfor the business plan, I would
not have gotten this job. It wasthat valuable. And so we we
(14:29):
don't write the business plan.
We give them a good model ofwhat an effective business plan
looks like. And because SteveNelson wrote a terrific article
a few years ago, that reallydefines it quite well, when then
I will certainly read drafts andgive and give advice based upon
(14:50):
the drafts. But I think the onething that Tim and I really do
is to hold their feet to thefire to get this thing. Done,
because it really is thatcritical, right,
Unknown (15:04):
Steve, can we share that link to that article in the
meeting notes? Those are outthere listening? Okay, so I will
go ahead and add that anybody'sout there listening, go into the
meeting notes, and you're goingto find the contact information
for everybody on this, on thispodcast. And that that article
that that Steve wrote,
Steve (15:25):
so let's talk a little bit about compensation, because
that's obviously important to toeverybody concerned. Um, one
thing that I've heard is thatmany people coming off the hill
or out of an agency sometimesget an unrealistic view of what,
what they will be paid or couldget paid in the private sector.
They talk to their friends andfriends tell them how much money
(15:48):
they made, whether it's true ornot true. But I'd like to get,
you know, your perspective onthat. Tim, you want to start,
Tim Horton (15:56):
yeah, I mean, without actually top talking
exact numbers, because it's, youknow, it's unique to an
organization, and certainlyunique to our to the clients
that we serve. And it's somewhatconfidential, but I think, as a
guideline, as a top levelstaffer, I think it would be
realistic to assume, you know,somewhere between a third, 35 to
(16:21):
a 50% bump from where you were,generally speaking, right now,
Steve, your point's a great one.
We talk to people and they say,I know all these people that
have left, and I think I'm worththis. When you probe. I said,
How many people have you talkedto and received compensation?
They said about seven. I said,How many made that one? So you
(16:43):
have to be realistic and do yourdue diligence, and they should
talk to others. But I thinkthose numbers are realistic. And
I think if someone coming out isjust saying, well, I need to
double or triple my money rightaway, if you're the Majority
Leader's Chief of Staff for 15years, that might be a
(17:05):
reasonable ask, but I'm not sureit is for everyone.
Dave Ris (17:14):
And I think that that's a really good that's
terrific advice from Tim,because both of us here that
that same dialog from candidateswho say, but I heard so and so
got thus and such. And we, andTim and I both sit back and say,
Well, we know pretty much what,what that guy got, and it wasn't
(17:35):
that. So those numbers do tendto be inflated. And it's then,
it's also, you know,compensation is one piece, but
find a place that where you'rereally going to be happy working
on the kind of work that youwant to do, and that that
becomes incredibly valuable andand also don't, don't get too
(17:59):
lost in that first year number,because that's a starting point.
Year two, year three could bevery different.
Tim Horton (18:09):
I think one of the differences too is often an
association or corporate isgoing to have a pretty defined
guideline of what a positionpays. Multi client, candidly, is
pretty open, but you know, kindof to Dave's point, kind of be
careful what you wish for,because if you can negotiate a
(18:30):
sky high base, you're going tohave about an hour before you
have to deliver your first pieceof business when you show up. So
it's really important tounderstand the dynamics of the
organization, what theexpectations are when you're
expected to deliver all of thathas to be done and really clear
up front so that it's a win, winsolution. And when we're
(18:52):
involved, we kind of drive thosefactors to ensure that no one
shows up and all of a suddencalls us back and said, this
isn't what I thought. Well, thenyou weren't listening, because
we went through all of this, youknow, over and over
Unknown (19:05):
and to Tim's point, you know, when working with my
background as well businessdevelopment and marketing in a
law firm context, the time ittakes to close from initial
conversation to actual billablework is anywhere from 12 to 18
(19:26):
months. It's one of the longesttails in sales. I got to imagine
that in sort of in your sector,there's something similar. So
those people, Tim to your point,who are coming in from an agency
or from the hill, and they, theydon't have a ready book of
business, it's going to takethem, you know, a couple of
(19:49):
years to build up a real book ofbusiness. They'll get some
business, maybe out of the box,some people doing them a favor,
whatever. But it's going to takesome time and and so you. More
the higher the price you have,over your tag, over your head,
faster. People are expecting youto convert that. So I think
that's that's excellent advice.
It's
Dave Ris (20:10):
a second point, though. Murray, yeah, there is a
misconception that all firms eatwhat you kill. And I think a lot
of the firms that we work with.
They recognize that that it'sgoing to take folks a little bit
of time to get their, you know,get their feet under them and
with and they are committed tomaking sure that this individual
(20:32):
is successful. If the candidateis really committed to being
successful, is committed todoing the kinds of things that
they need to be doing, and ifthey are doing the kinds of
things that they should be doingto get to that that that big
goal that they want. Yep, thefirm's going to recognize the
(20:54):
effort. Yes, it's, it's the theindividual who sits in the
office and doesn't take phonecalls, doesn't make phone calls,
and just expects to be fedthey're in trouble.
Steve (21:10):
Why don't you talk a little bit about the various
merits of the lobbying firm, thenon law firm, lobbying firm
versus the law firm, and the onething we do know is that the
lobbying firms have much loweroverhead. So the book of
(21:30):
business, you can get paid more,at least, you know,
superficially at a at a lobbyingfirm, but there are advantages
in a law firm as well. So maybeyou want to talk to that a
little bit, Dave
Dave Ris (21:45):
and so I think it that depends a lot on what the
candidate wants to do in in somecases, they really do want to go
to a law firm because they dowant to have that habit, that
hybrid, you know, practice,which is some government affairs
and some legal aspects and andsome of the, some of the folks
(22:09):
that we place, you know, theystart completely on the
legislative side, and talk tothem 10 years later, and they're
completely working on clients,on sub substantive issues. So
that's something to take intoaccount. The law firms you know
have have a have a pretty bigadvantage on that side, because
(22:30):
you're billing clients, not onlyfor legal work, but other
aspects that the firm provides.
And in the right firm, you'll beintroduced to clients, the look
the quote, unquote law firmclients, and for because of your
because of your legislativeexpertise, and so that's that's
(22:50):
a tremendous help. On the on theother hand, the lobby shops can
move really quickly. They're notas bureaucratic. And you know, a
lot of them do have teamworkenvironments and and that's
attractive. So, you know,consider both.
Tim Horton (23:13):
I don't have any, that's exactly what I would have
said. The The only point I'llmake, and it wasn't a direct
response to your question, is,sometimes, I think the
perception is, in order to gowork in government affairs at a
law firm, you have to have a lawdegree. And that is absolutely
not correct
Dave Ris (23:29):
at all. Increasingly, so Right, yeah,
Unknown (23:36):
yep, yeah. And I, as I've talked to lateral partner
candidates, or people who arethinking of going into the
lateral market, one of thequestions that I encourage them
to ask about is, what is thelevel of support? So, David, to
your point of, you know, the thewhile there's there's this
expectation that they'll be ableto build this business, what's
(23:56):
the level of support to helpthem get to that point, and
what's the firm's experience inworking with people? If they've
got a great practice thatthere's, you know, they've, you
know, they've, they've got agood sort of good, good path,
fantastic. If you're startingsomething from scratch, or
you're or you're going into afirm that that's not ready to
(24:16):
commit the resources that Ithink those are, those are,
those are significant questionsthat that need to be asked,
especially for people coming whoare coming off of private
service for 1015, 20 years,
Dave Ris (24:29):
yeah. And so there's, there's a couple of things, a we
have those conversations, bothwith the candidates and also
with the clients, you know, theemployers about you know this,
these are the kinds of questionsthat they're going to have in
their mind, and you need to beaddressing these things and be
prepared to talk about them fromboth sides of the table. And the
(24:51):
other thing is, whenever I'mworking with a candidate
directly, I typically try toconvince them. Talk to a
business development coach, andmaybe even engage a business
development coach, because thatis a tremendous, tremendous
impact on your career, just thathaving that business coach at
(25:16):
your side for the first year orso has incredible value.
Tim Horton (25:20):
The other piece too is in terms of fit with, with
with your with your background,and whether it's subject matter,
expertise or industry. So forexample, are you someone who
wants to go somewhere and kindof build out, let's say a a a
FinTech practice and get intoall this, or are you someone
(25:44):
that's more comfortable gettingplugged in to an already
established, you know,healthcare practice that doesn't
matter whether that's law firmor independent lobbying firm,
but that's a big consideration,and so your final decision might
come down to that. So, you know,I really like this place,
(26:05):
because I'm not starting fromscratch. They have a team. I've
got to develop a practice area,but I've got, I've got some
support. So I mean that that's abig consideration, I think,
depending upon the candidate'spersonality and kind of desire.
Steve (26:20):
So Murray, anything else that we want to address here?
Unknown (26:25):
Well, you know, I always like to hear, and we, we
didn't prep for this, but whatthe heck I always like to kind
of hear, off the top of thehead, off the top of your heads,
predictions for when we're thisearly in the year, kind of
predictions for where the wherethe hot areas are going to be.
You know, if people arelistening and they're trying to
evaluate whether it's time forthem to make a move, is this the
(26:49):
year for the people who have theoil and gas experience, or is
this the year for the people whohave the heavy EPA experience?
Or what the the, you know, whowants to start on that, on that
prediction, and what the hotareas are going to be, if you
got a big smile on your face,yeah? Is that because you don't
know, or you do know? Yeah.
Dave Ris (27:06):
It's, yeah, it's kind of all of the above. Murray
healthcare is always hot, okay?
And it's, it's that's not goingto change anytime in the in the
near future. Another thing tothink about is, I started my
career place in a lot of peoplefrom the tax world, and that
that business slowed down agreat deal next year is going to
(27:28):
be a big tax year, and so thefirms and the other employers
are, you know, in houseemployers are, are recognizing
that tax is all of a suddengoing to be on the table, and
they need to be working withclients, and you know,
internally to prepare for newnegotiations around around the
tax laws, energy is always asignificant issue, and energy
(27:54):
also as it applies toinfrastructure, are always, are
always areas of interests.
Tim Horton (28:09):
Yes, it seems like over the last few years, we've
seen broadly defined kind offinancial services is somewhat
top of mind. And I guess youknow, maybe it comes back to,
it's the economy, stupid, I'mnot sure, but that doesn't ever
seem to be much more than thirdor fourth in line. I also think
(28:31):
we could see a shift dependingupon what happens with the
election, right? You just don'tknow. But I think those three
broad categories. You know,every year, Dave and I strategy
includes those as well asothers.
Steve (28:47):
Yeah, and I would add that technology and technology
policy is on the table rightnow. You see, I'm thinking of
everyone who sees the ads about,you know, are we, you know,
where are we going withtechnology? Are we regulating it
or we want it more of a freemarket approach? And I think
that battle is going to happenthis year, and it doesn't appear
(29:07):
that there's a you know, you cansee both Democrats and
Republicans have differing viewson that, even within their own
parties.
Dave Ris (29:15):
Yeah, and then overlay artificial intelligence on that
whole discussion. Yeah, verymuch. So yeah, the other area
that I'm hearing a lot about isnational security and defense,
getting lots of, lots of asksfrom clients for for talent in
that area.
Unknown (29:36):
Excellent. Yeah. Why don't
Steve (29:37):
you, Dave, why don't you go through that a little bit
more in depth in terms of, whatare they talking about with
national security? What are theissues that people are focused
on?
Dave Ris (29:47):
Well, there's, if it falls into a couple of different
camps. One thing are this thediscussion around Homeland
Security, that's that's an area.
Great interest and and then youalso have the side that the
defense on the defense side,every year the defense
appropriations bill isrenegotiated, and government
(30:10):
contractors are very busy in thedefense contracting world. And
so candidates who know how towork with the government
contracting industry and helpingthe contractors to be
successful. They're in a greatdeal of value also, which is
very DC, that very definitely aDC. You know, in just DC is not
(30:35):
a town of a big town forindustry, one exception is the
government contracting sector,right,
Unknown (30:45):
right, right?
Government contracting,absolutely. Tim, any additional
thoughts before we close?
Tim Horton (30:51):
No, I do not
Unknown (30:54):
great. Well, thank you.
Tim, thank you. David. Steve,always a always a pleasure. And
if anybody has questions forTim, David, Steve, one thing I
do know about my friends in theform of group, they're always
happy to take a call to youknow, help you think through
next steps in your career ornext steps in how you're going
(31:17):
to grow your your your firm oror your organization. So please,
please, don't worry aboutcalling them right. Guys,
absolutely those cards andletters coming. Super Steve,
until next time. Tim, Dave,thank you. Thank you.
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules, periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of M Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professionals into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others. Hey,Steve, welcome to Season Two of
Steve's rules, we are in we madeit, we made it, we made it over.
(01:13):
Hurray. Listen in the world ofpodcasting, getting to season
two is sort of the the make orbreak for a lot of podcasts. So
a lot of podcasts are abandonedafter the first season, and we
have a plan for, you know, worlddomination over the next 1520,
years. So so I'm, I'm excitedand welcome into 2024, and we've
(01:37):
got a great, really interestingconversation today on a unique
slice of the executiverecruiting world with two of our
leading experts and colleaguesof yours. So let me turn it over
to you, Steve, you set thetable, introduce your
colleagues, and let's get intoit all
Steve (01:58):
right. So one of the hallmarks of our company, the
McCormick group, is that we havedone a lot of work for many, at
least 20 years, in thegovernment relations space, and
that is primarily with lawfirms, increasing number of
lobbying for firms, but alsocorporations and trade
(02:22):
associations. So it's been, it'sa big practice for us, and I
wanted to introduce two of ourprincipals that work in that
area, Dave Riss and Tim Horgan.
Dave, why don't you give alittle bit of an introduction to
yourself, and then we'll haveTim do the same.
Dave Ris (02:40):
Thanks, Steve. So my world is, is placing candidates
who are both attorneys andlobbyists, and infrequently they
wear both hats, which is pretty,which is very normal in DC. The
candidates come from the hill.
It could be member staff. Theycould be committee staff,
certainly from the governmentagencies, primarily, but not
(03:03):
exclusively, politicalappointees. And of course, we
also work with candidates whoare already downtown. They're
already out in the privatesector. And then the second
thing, a big part of my world isrepresenting candidates that is
helping those candidates totransition to the private
(03:26):
sector. It's a situation where,normally I clients ask me to
find talent. I like to flip theprocess on its head, and instead
find the talent and then callthe call the clients, and it is
still an employer pays the fee.
(03:46):
Kind of arrangement, obviouslywe, we do it on a highly
selective basis.
Tim Horton (03:55):
Great Tim. My name is Tim Horgan, and my my role is
quite similar to Dave's, with afocus on really Association and
nonprofits as clients as well ascorporations. You know,
particularly those that have youknow, an in house team most of
the time that's in DC, and thenmulti client firms, you know,
(04:20):
both law and independentlobbying firms, I would do less
than Dave probably workingdirectly with kind of the the
actual law firm itself, on theon the lawyer side, and do
represent on a select basis, youknow, when it makes good sense,
and we, at Times, collaborate,you know, in that effort as
well. Yeah,
Unknown (04:42):
well, that's great, and you're both in the DC metro
region,
Dave Ris (04:47):
that's correct.
Unknown (04:50):
Great. Both, both our native want to get us kicked off
on some of our topics here.
Steve (04:56):
Okay, so, um, you know, let's talk a little bit about.
Yes, 2024 it's an election year.
You know, there is obviouslywe're not going to get a lot of
major legislation done,certainly by what we're reading
in the press about certain bigissues that are out on the table
now. But it'd be good to getyour perspective on, you know,
(05:19):
what it's going to be like forthe people who are, you know, at
on the hill or at an agencyright now? What's their
prospects? What's the timing ofthat? So I'll turn to the first,
I guess. I'll first ask Tim alittle bit about what he sees.
Tim Horton (05:35):
Yeah, so I think that it may not be a significant
factor for a large percentage oftalent. And, you know, it's
probably important for us tokind of identify the talent we
work with. We're mostly going tobe working with senior level
staff, you know. So think of aChief of Staff, Chief Counsel,
(05:55):
Legislative Director, you know,in the Senate, if their member
happens to be retiring at theend of this year, we do find
often that they want to servethat term out with their member,
particularly at a senior levelrole. But most others, if it's
time, if they've reached their20 years, and if they're
(06:18):
interested in making the move, Idon't know, is they're going to
let the election year kind ofget in the way of that. And I
think it will be on a very, youknow, select basis. So that's
kind of macro level myexperience on the hillside, and
I know Dave would have moreinsight on, you know, some of
(06:38):
the top agency talent. Yeah,
Dave Ris (06:43):
right, yeah. And so I think that in my 15 years plus,
of doing this through in everyelection cycle, every two years,
I think we do see a little bitof a slowdown the end. And this
year, of course, it seems likethe election cycle started
sometime in July, or maybe evenearlier 2023 but I think Tim's
(07:09):
also correct in that thetalented people at the top
level, they're always in demand,whether it be an election cycle
or not. And also, one of thethings that that we find is, you
know, our candidates tend to bethose who are who can work both
(07:31):
sides of the aisle, and so thepolitical aspects of it don't
tend to get in the way as much.
Tim Horton (07:40):
I think another point here too is that while a
really talented senior staffermay not technically be looking
when someone like us or otherscall them, you know, it's our
role not to talk them into doingsomething they don't want to do,
but to really enthusiasticallypresent to them a compelling
(08:03):
opportunity, right? And sosometimes it isn't that they're
looking it's that they'represented with something that
isn't going to be there if theywait six months,
Steve (08:14):
right? And I'll add one thing to that is, is that even
though you know the the big hotbutton issues might not be. You
know, moving through Congressthis year, there's a lot of
issues of importance tobusiness, whether it's in
healthcare, energy,infrastructure, whatever,
there's a lot of issues outthere that will be acted on, and
(08:36):
there'll be activity. And sotherefore, in a particular for a
particular person, there's valuenow, not just waiting until the
end of the year. That said, I'dlike to get Dave's perspective a
little bit on if you're, youknow, if you're coming out of
the out of the hill or anagency, you know, what is it,
(08:59):
you know, what is it that youprovide to these people in terms
of the advice and getting themready for going into the private
sector.
Dave Ris (09:09):
Yes, and I, and I always like to have
conversations with the with thestaff, whether they're ready to
leave or not. But I want to, Iwant to talk to them about what
they need to do when they dostart that transition. I get a
lot of calls from from folks whoare saying, you know, I'm
(09:29):
thinking about leaving, not thiscycle, but maybe a couple of
years from now. What do I needto be thinking about? And the
first thing that they need tothink about is the ethics, apps,
aspects and they do need to talkto the Ethics Council as soon as
they are ready to make thattransition. And the other things
(09:49):
that I suggest that they do isstart keeping a list of who, of
who is coming to see them. Youknow, who from downtown is is
stopping in. Right andrecognize, you know, take, take
a take a measurement. Who arethe ones that you like? What?
(10:11):
What is it about them that theydo that puts them at the top of
a list? And, you know, thinkabout who is, is, are the folks
that that that you really wantto emulate, and what are they
doing? So that's that's always agood litmus, but that keeping
that list of who has come in tosee you is incredibly valuable
(10:34):
when you make that transitionoff of the hill.
Tim Horton (10:39):
Yeah, I can just add a couple things. Yeah. I mean, I
think that's great in terms of alist. If this person is has any
thoughts of going multi client,keep that list in industry as
well, right? So you want thefirms are great because it gives
(10:59):
you a sense of culture,chemistry. But at the end of the
day, those firms that you maymeet with are going to want to
know who you can deliver to themas clients. So So you want to
really kind of be keeping youknow both of those. The only
other element I share with folksthat are thinking about kind of
staying in their world isthere's really three places for
(11:21):
you to go. You can go to anassociation, you can go
corporate in house or multiclient. And there's really one
distinct difference that we seemost often, association or
corporate in house, there reallyhas to be an opening. Someone's
leaving the organization'screating a new role, which means
at a senior level, you know,those may not be readily
(11:45):
available on a you know, on aregular basis, multi client is
the exact opposite. It's aproactive approach to your next
move, and if you package andpresent your brand and your
capabilities effectively, youwill get meetings with multi
client firms.
Unknown (12:06):
And so, yeah, I want to ask a question about
that multi multi firm, multiclient firm, you know, Steve, my
experience is in, is in workingwith lateral partners coming
into law firms, and we alwaystalk about the book, the book,
the book, the book. And I thinkyou and I have have sort of put
a hole in, you know, this bigdiscussion around the book. It's
(12:29):
important, but it's not the onlything, right. But, you know,
Tim, when somebody's coming inafter 20 years on the right, and
they are a senior staffer, andthey're connected. You know,
they're, they're what they haveis a, is a, is a, is a armful of
connections. They don't have anarm full of business that a like
a law firm partner might bringin, right? What's the, what is
(12:50):
the dynamic, then, for thatperson now transitioning into
this, in many circumstances, eatwhat you kill environment, when
they've been in a very differentenvironment, and their currency
is different than the currencythat they're actually have to
generate.
Tim Horton (13:11):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I've got one thing
to add, and then I think Davewill do a better job than I
talking about the business planprocess, which is significant.
When someone comes off the hill,you know, they're considered an
investment higher by these multiclient firms, and that's
understood if they're coming offthe hill. And then I let Dave
(13:31):
talk about business plans,because he's quite good at it.
But that's where the candidate,with guidance from us, you know,
presents via the business plan,why they're a good investment.
Dave Ris (13:47):
And yeah, and I always ask my candidates to write a
business plan, even if they'renot looking to go to a multi
client firm. And the reason isthis, the business plan is
incredibly effective at helpingthe candidate to understand and
(14:08):
then articulate their value. Ihave had conversations with
many, many candidates that I didnot place who came back to me
and said, David, if it wasn'tfor the business plan, I would
not have gotten this job. It wasthat valuable. And so we we
(14:29):
don't write the business plan.
We give them a good model ofwhat an effective business plan
looks like. And because SteveNelson wrote a terrific article
a few years ago, that reallydefines it quite well, when then
I will certainly read drafts andgive and give advice based upon
(14:50):
the drafts. But I think the onething that Tim and I really do
is to hold their feet to thefire to get this thing. Done,
because it really is thatcritical, right,
Unknown (15:04):
Steve, can we share that link to that article in the
meeting notes? Those are outthere listening? Okay, so I will
go ahead and add that anybody'sout there listening, go into the
meeting notes, and you're goingto find the contact information
for everybody on this, on thispodcast. And that that article
that that Steve wrote,
Steve (15:25):
so let's talk a little bit about compensation, because
that's obviously important to toeverybody concerned. Um, one
thing that I've heard is thatmany people coming off the hill
or out of an agency sometimesget an unrealistic view of what,
what they will be paid or couldget paid in the private sector.
They talk to their friends andfriends tell them how much money
(15:48):
they made, whether it's true ornot true. But I'd like to get,
you know, your perspective onthat. Tim, you want to start,
Tim Horton (15:56):
yeah, I mean, without actually top talking
exact numbers, because it's, youknow, it's unique to an
organization, and certainlyunique to our to the clients
that we serve. And it's somewhatconfidential, but I think, as a
guideline, as a top levelstaffer, I think it would be
realistic to assume, you know,somewhere between a third, 35 to
(16:21):
a 50% bump from where you were,generally speaking, right now,
Steve, your point's a great one.
We talk to people and they say,I know all these people that
have left, and I think I'm worththis. When you probe. I said,
How many people have you talkedto and received compensation?
They said about seven. I said,How many made that one? So you
(16:43):
have to be realistic and do yourdue diligence, and they should
talk to others. But I thinkthose numbers are realistic. And
I think if someone coming out isjust saying, well, I need to
double or triple my money rightaway, if you're the Majority
Leader's Chief of Staff for 15years, that might be a
(17:05):
reasonable ask, but I'm not sureit is for everyone.
Dave Ris (17:14):
And I think that that's a really good that's
terrific advice from Tim,because both of us here that
that same dialog from candidateswho say, but I heard so and so
got thus and such. And we, andTim and I both sit back and say,
Well, we know pretty much what,what that guy got, and it wasn't
(17:35):
that. So those numbers do tendto be inflated. And it's then,
it's also, you know,compensation is one piece, but
find a place that where you'rereally going to be happy working
on the kind of work that youwant to do, and that that
becomes incredibly valuable andand also don't, don't get too
(17:59):
lost in that first year number,because that's a starting point.
Year two, year three could bevery different.
Tim Horton (18:09):
I think one of the differences too is often an
association or corporate isgoing to have a pretty defined
guideline of what a positionpays. Multi client, candidly, is
pretty open, but you know, kindof to Dave's point, kind of be
careful what you wish for,because if you can negotiate a
(18:30):
sky high base, you're going tohave about an hour before you
have to deliver your first pieceof business when you show up. So
it's really important tounderstand the dynamics of the
organization, what theexpectations are when you're
expected to deliver all of thathas to be done and really clear
up front so that it's a win, winsolution. And when we're
(18:52):
involved, we kind of drive thosefactors to ensure that no one
shows up and all of a suddencalls us back and said, this
isn't what I thought. Well, thenyou weren't listening, because
we went through all of this, youknow, over and over
Unknown (19:05):
and to Tim's point, you know, when working with my
background as well businessdevelopment and marketing in a
law firm context, the time ittakes to close from initial
conversation to actual billablework is anywhere from 12 to 18
(19:26):
months. It's one of the longesttails in sales. I got to imagine
that in sort of in your sector,there's something similar. So
those people, Tim to your point,who are coming in from an agency
or from the hill, and they, theydon't have a ready book of
business, it's going to takethem, you know, a couple of
(19:49):
years to build up a real book ofbusiness. They'll get some
business, maybe out of the box,some people doing them a favor,
whatever. But it's going to takesome time and and so you. More
the higher the price you have,over your tag, over your head,
faster. People are expecting youto convert that. So I think
that's that's excellent advice.
It's
Dave Ris (20:10):
a second point, though. Murray, yeah, there is a
misconception that all firms eatwhat you kill. And I think a lot
of the firms that we work with.
They recognize that that it'sgoing to take folks a little bit
of time to get their, you know,get their feet under them and
with and they are committed tomaking sure that this individual
(20:32):
is successful. If the candidateis really committed to being
successful, is committed todoing the kinds of things that
they need to be doing, and ifthey are doing the kinds of
things that they should be doingto get to that that that big
goal that they want. Yep, thefirm's going to recognize the
(20:54):
effort. Yes, it's, it's the theindividual who sits in the
office and doesn't take phonecalls, doesn't make phone calls,
and just expects to be fedthey're in trouble.
Steve (21:10):
Why don't you talk a little bit about the various
merits of the lobbying firm, thenon law firm, lobbying firm
versus the law firm, and the onething we do know is that the
lobbying firms have much loweroverhead. So the book of
(21:30):
business, you can get paid more,at least, you know,
superficially at a at a lobbyingfirm, but there are advantages
in a law firm as well. So maybeyou want to talk to that a
little bit, Dave
Dave Ris (21:45):
and so I think it that depends a lot on what the
candidate wants to do in in somecases, they really do want to go
to a law firm because they dowant to have that habit, that
hybrid, you know, practice,which is some government affairs
and some legal aspects and andsome of the, some of the folks
(22:09):
that we place, you know, theystart completely on the
legislative side, and talk tothem 10 years later, and they're
completely working on clients,on sub substantive issues. So
that's something to take intoaccount. The law firms you know
have have a have a pretty bigadvantage on that side, because
(22:30):
you're billing clients, not onlyfor legal work, but other
aspects that the firm provides.
And in the right firm, you'll beintroduced to clients, the look
the quote, unquote law firmclients, and for because of your
because of your legislativeexpertise, and so that's that's
(22:50):
a tremendous help. On the on theother hand, the lobby shops can
move really quickly. They're notas bureaucratic. And you know, a
lot of them do have teamworkenvironments and and that's
attractive. So, you know,consider both.
Tim Horton (23:13):
I don't have any, that's exactly what I would have
said. The The only point I'llmake, and it wasn't a direct
response to your question, is,sometimes, I think the
perception is, in order to gowork in government affairs at a
law firm, you have to have a lawdegree. And that is absolutely
not correct
Dave Ris (23:29):
at all. Increasingly, so Right, yeah,
Unknown (23:36):
yep, yeah. And I, as I've talked to lateral partner
candidates, or people who arethinking of going into the
lateral market, one of thequestions that I encourage them
to ask about is, what is thelevel of support? So, David, to
your point of, you know, the thewhile there's there's this
expectation that they'll be ableto build this business, what's
(23:56):
the level of support to helpthem get to that point, and
what's the firm's experience inworking with people? If they've
got a great practice thatthere's, you know, they've, you
know, they've, they've got agood sort of good, good path,
fantastic. If you're startingsomething from scratch, or
you're or you're going into afirm that that's not ready to
(24:16):
commit the resources that Ithink those are, those are,
those are significant questionsthat that need to be asked,
especially for people coming whoare coming off of private
service for 1015, 20 years,
Dave Ris (24:29):
yeah. And so there's, there's a couple of things, a we
have those conversations, bothwith the candidates and also
with the clients, you know, theemployers about you know this,
these are the kinds of questionsthat they're going to have in
their mind, and you need to beaddressing these things and be
prepared to talk about them fromboth sides of the table. And the
(24:51):
other thing is, whenever I'mworking with a candidate
directly, I typically try toconvince them. Talk to a
business development coach, andmaybe even engage a business
development coach, because thatis a tremendous, tremendous
impact on your career, just thathaving that business coach at
(25:16):
your side for the first year orso has incredible value.
Tim Horton (25:20):
The other piece too is in terms of fit with, with
with your with your background,and whether it's subject matter,
expertise or industry. So forexample, are you someone who
wants to go somewhere and kindof build out, let's say a a a
FinTech practice and get intoall this, or are you someone
(25:44):
that's more comfortable gettingplugged in to an already
established, you know,healthcare practice that doesn't
matter whether that's law firmor independent lobbying firm,
but that's a big consideration,and so your final decision might
come down to that. So, you know,I really like this place,
(26:05):
because I'm not starting fromscratch. They have a team. I've
got to develop a practice area,but I've got, I've got some
support. So I mean that that's abig consideration, I think,
depending upon the candidate'spersonality and kind of desire.
Steve (26:20):
So Murray, anything else that we want to address here?
Unknown (26:25):
Well, you know, I always like to hear, and we, we
didn't prep for this, but whatthe heck I always like to kind
of hear, off the top of thehead, off the top of your heads,
predictions for when we're thisearly in the year, kind of
predictions for where the wherethe hot areas are going to be.
You know, if people arelistening and they're trying to
evaluate whether it's time forthem to make a move, is this the
(26:49):
year for the people who have theoil and gas experience, or is
this the year for the people whohave the heavy EPA experience?
Or what the the, you know, whowants to start on that, on that
prediction, and what the hotareas are going to be, if you
got a big smile on your face,yeah? Is that because you don't
know, or you do know? Yeah.
Dave Ris (27:06):
It's, yeah, it's kind of all of the above. Murray
healthcare is always hot, okay?
And it's, it's that's not goingto change anytime in the in the
near future. Another thing tothink about is, I started my
career place in a lot of peoplefrom the tax world, and that
that business slowed down agreat deal next year is going to
(27:28):
be a big tax year, and so thefirms and the other employers
are, you know, in houseemployers are, are recognizing
that tax is all of a suddengoing to be on the table, and
they need to be working withclients, and you know,
internally to prepare for newnegotiations around around the
tax laws, energy is always asignificant issue, and energy
(27:54):
also as it applies toinfrastructure, are always, are
always areas of interests.
Tim Horton (28:09):
Yes, it seems like over the last few years, we've
seen broadly defined kind offinancial services is somewhat
top of mind. And I guess youknow, maybe it comes back to,
it's the economy, stupid, I'mnot sure, but that doesn't ever
seem to be much more than thirdor fourth in line. I also think
(28:31):
we could see a shift dependingupon what happens with the
election, right? You just don'tknow. But I think those three
broad categories. You know,every year, Dave and I strategy
includes those as well asothers.
Steve (28:47):
Yeah, and I would add that technology and technology
policy is on the table rightnow. You see, I'm thinking of
everyone who sees the ads about,you know, are we, you know,
where are we going withtechnology? Are we regulating it
or we want it more of a freemarket approach? And I think
that battle is going to happenthis year, and it doesn't appear
(29:07):
that there's a you know, you cansee both Democrats and
Republicans have differing viewson that, even within their own
parties.
Dave Ris (29:15):
Yeah, and then overlay artificial intelligence on that
whole discussion. Yeah, verymuch. So yeah, the other area
that I'm hearing a lot about isnational security and defense,
getting lots of, lots of asksfrom clients for for talent in
that area.
Unknown (29:36):
Excellent. Yeah. Why don't
Steve (29:37):
you, Dave, why don't you go through that a little bit
more in depth in terms of, whatare they talking about with
national security? What are theissues that people are focused
on?
Dave Ris (29:47):
Well, there's, if it falls into a couple of different
camps. One thing are this thediscussion around Homeland
Security, that's that's an area.
Great interest and and then youalso have the side that the
defense on the defense side,every year the defense
appropriations bill isrenegotiated, and government
(30:10):
contractors are very busy in thedefense contracting world. And
so candidates who know how towork with the government
contracting industry and helpingthe contractors to be
successful. They're in a greatdeal of value also, which is
very DC, that very definitely aDC. You know, in just DC is not
(30:35):
a town of a big town forindustry, one exception is the
government contracting sector,right,
Unknown (30:45):
right, right?
Government contracting,absolutely. Tim, any additional
thoughts before we close?
Tim Horton (30:51):
No, I do not
Unknown (30:54):
great. Well, thank you.
Tim, thank you. David. Steve,always a always a pleasure. And
if anybody has questions forTim, David, Steve, one thing I
do know about my friends in theform of group, they're always
happy to take a call to youknow, help you think through
next steps in your career ornext steps in how you're going
(31:17):
to grow your your your firm oror your organization. So please,
please, don't worry aboutcalling them right. Guys,
absolutely those cards andletters coming. Super Steve,
until next time. Tim, Dave,thank you. Thank you.
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