June 23, 2024 • 45 mins
In this episode, Murray Coffey and Steve Nelson delve into the intricacies of legal recruiting, offering a blend of practical advice and personal anecdotes. They discuss the best ways to manage recruiter inquiries, key considerations for those contemplating a career move, and the importance of building solid relationships with reputable recruiters. Additionally, they cover current market trends and emphasize the significance of carefully evaluating counteroffers. This episode is designed to equip you with the insights needed to navigate your legal career with confidence.
Episode Highlights:
- Best Practices for Managing Recruiter Inquiries: Learn how to effectively handle calls and messages from recruiters.
- Controlling Your Identity: Safeguard your resume and personal information by only sending them to authorized firms.
- Importance of Ethics in Recruiting: Recognize and avoid unethical practices by some recruiters.
- Candidate Preparation: Ensure you have your statistics and relevant information ready before engaging with a recruiter.
- Choosing the Right Recruiter: Identify recruiters who have strong relationships with hiring firms and understand your market and practice area.
- Working with One Recruiter: Build a strong, trusting relationship with a single recruiter to increase your chances of successful placement.
- Personal Relationships and Referrals: Use your network to get referrals for reputable recruiters.
- Recruiter Methodology: Understand the recruiter’s approach and ensure they can effectively reach suitable firms.
- Assessing Opportunities: Utilize a recruiter’s expertise to determine if a move is in your best interest.
- Long-term Relationships: Work with recruiters who are committed to your career growth and provide honest assessments.
- Evaluating Offers: Be cautious with counteroffers and consider their long-term implications.
- Market Trends and Insights: Stay updated on the latest trends and dynamics in the recruiting market.
Key Takeaways:
- Be Prepared: Have your market statistics and relevant data ready when engaging with a recruiter.
- Ask the Right Questions: Ensure the recruiter has a genuine relationship with the hiring firm and understands your needs.
- Control Your Identity: Avoid having your resume sent to multiple firms without your consent.
- Work with One Recruiter: Develop a strong, trusting relationship with a single recruiter for better results.
- Evaluate Offers Carefully: Consider the long-term implications of counteroffers and trust the insights of experienced recruiters.
Join Murray and Steve as they share valuable insights and experiences, helping you navigate your career with confidence and professionalism.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of M Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professional into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others.
Steve (01:05):
Hey, Steve, how are you okay? How are you doing? Murray,
I'm
Unknown (01:10):
doing great. I'm doing great. Summer is starting to
starting to get off to a runhere in beautiful Dallas, Texas,
we are having nearly tripledigits already this early in
June, which is unusual for us,but won't be unusual in the next
couple of weeks. It's darn hot,though. Yeah,
Steve (01:28):
we've gotten the our best weather the last week that we've
had all since, you know, sincelast year, we had four or five
good days in a row. So I'll take
Unknown (01:37):
it and when look where the weather's lovely in in your
neck of the woods. It's, it's,it's really nice. It's
beautiful. So that's great, blueskies and all so, so listen,
we're going to talk today abouta couple of cool, interesting
things. We're taking a slightlydifferent approach than we have
in the past, and we're going toput but so we're going to be
(01:58):
talking about the kind of kindof best practices in how one
manages inbound calls and andinquiries from recruiters, and
also what you as a candidate.
Number two is what you as acandidate need to be doing if
you think it's time for you toto make a move right and correct
(02:19):
and but, but, but, before we dothat, as we often do, we are
going to take a quick look atsome of the intel that McCormick
group has been putting together.
As you know, they're, they're,they're famous for their intel,
(02:40):
understanding markets andderiving a lot of a lot of
insight from the Intel work thatthey've been doing. And I think
you've got some some interestingnews to share with the folks. So
Steve, why don't you go for it?
Okay,
Steve (02:55):
so we just completed, well, we come a couple weeks
ago, we completed April, theApril recruiting and April was
the best month by far. So far,2024 and have actually made up
for what we found at least inour DC and Texas market studies,
(03:16):
where the actual number oflaterals was trailing a little
bit from 2023 April forced us,forced both numbers ahead of
pace. So April was a huge month,and that was unexpected, because
usually the it's February, Marchis usually the big months,
right? But I think a couple ofthings are going on this year
(03:38):
that have made that happen. Oneis, I think the firms have been
a little later in paying out thebonuses and distributions, and I
think that once they've donethat, it's taken partners a
little longer to finish theprocess. Usually they're pretty
close, you know, they've goteverything done except the final
agreement, you know, inDecember, and they wait and they
(04:01):
wait until the bonus comes. ButI think the conflict checking in
particular is taking longer todo. I think firms are really
careful about it. And there wasone fairly celebrated incident
that occurred in the month ofApril, actually, if somebody had
moved in March, and she had amove again in April, because the
(04:21):
conflict, the conflicts turnedout, you know, to be they didn't
run the conflicts problem, andso she had to move again. So
we're not going, we won't gointo specific names, but if you,
if you check your, if you're upon your American lawyer, you
could probably find it out, did,
Unknown (04:38):
did did they move back to,
Steve (04:40):
they went to a new firm.
They didn't go the originalfirm, since three firms, right,
exactly, right. This person wasclearly valuable, but had to,
had to go to plan B, so tospeak. And maybe they were
already, you know, good, andwe're going to get to this a
little bit, but they wereprobably talking to. Both firms
during the process. She choseFirm A, and then Firm A ran into
(05:04):
conflicts. You know, I ran intoconflicts after she accepted,
actually, she started and shewent to, you know, she went to
firm B. So, anyway, so, butwe've heard from others that
conflicts is taking a lot longerto finish. Firms are being extra
careful. And, you know,relationship partners are
holding things up because theywant to make sure that the
(05:27):
client, that their existingclient isn't gonna have a
problem. And I think that, youknow, I think just gets
complicated, and I think that'sdelaying things. So that was
April. I expect, I expect,expect may to be pretty solid,
although probably not as good asApril, but I think we're again.
I think we're going to berunning a little bit ahead of
last year's pace. Yeah,
Unknown (05:49):
the other thing I know too that clients just are
getting very picky about anykind of, any kind of conflict
waiver requests that are comingin. It's just they're saying,
you know, you got to figure outwho you want to do business
with, right? And, and it'sthey're getting sticky about
(06:11):
that, which, I don't blame them.
I don't blame the clients for aminute, you know, to be a little
pickier about that, right?
Because, you know, it does. Itmay not benefit them in a long,
long run. And that's that's notgreat the for in the DC market.
Now, we didn't, we didn't prediscuss this before, but in the
(06:32):
DC market, any you're seeing,any, any, think the numbers
were, were nudged along at allby, by the national elections
that are coming up. I knowhistorically, you said it kind
of, it kind of tamps down thingsfor a little bit, especially
right now, because it's just
Steve (06:50):
well government there.
Yeah, there were a good numberof government moves in April,
and so I think that did pick up.
I think they're largely in areasof of like non controversy,
terms of political so a lot ofwhite collar types are moving,
and I trust people continue tomove, because I think the
(07:13):
antitrust will be there one wayor another with whichever,
whichever party gets into power.
So, so I think that that itwill, it will continue. I mean,
the other thing is big right nowis data privacy, cyber security,
and that's been a big, big boomas well.
Unknown (07:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely and you're seeing it
all over, the firms arerecruiting folks from all over
the place. It'll be interestingto see how, how, how, you know,
how much of that holds waterafter, after a little while, is
there's a lot of people claiminglevels of of skill and knowledge
that maybe are almost impossibleto actually have. But so let's,
(08:00):
let's, anything else on theIntel side, anything you're
seeing that you anything elsewant to share?
Steve (08:07):
No, not for not, yeah, not right now. I think we're, I
think it's even a pretty solidmonth. I continue, it continues
to be solid. No major sort of,like, surprising changes other
than that April blimp,
Unknown (08:19):
yeah. Yeah, interesting. Okay, so, as we
alluded to earlier, we're gonna,we're gonna switch gears here a
little bit. And, you know, we'vebeen talking, in most cases,
sort of about the way thelateral process, lateral
recruiting process works, and,and things about, about how to
consider pay and, and, and, youknow, a lot lots, lots of kind
(08:44):
of the granular details. Buttoday we're going to talk about
the little bit more about thecandidate experience. And so the
first, first bit is somethingthat I think those of us who
have been in the business for awhile have experience with and
(09:04):
have also, you know, frankly,had some bad experiences with,
and that is when the phonerings, or the LinkedIn,
LinkedIn, you know, message popsup, or the DM pops up from a
recruiter saying, Hey, I've I'vegot a I've got a opportunity. I
want to talk to you about andkind of what happens from there,
(09:28):
and what you as a candidate needto be thinking about. So Steve,
first of all, take us throughsort of what happens with the
recruiter before they are makingthat outreach. Generally
speaking, I know some, some ofthem just do a shotgun but, but
recruiters like yourself, whoare very, who are kind of very
studied and very determinedabout what you do, what are you
(09:50):
doing before you make
Steve (09:52):
the Yeah, so you're right in that there's a shotgun
approach and and there are. Um,you know, I think, what's one of
the problems, I think you runinto, is that, um, it really
goes back to the law firms. Lawfirms will talk to any number of
recruiters out there and telltheir story. And the kind of the
(10:16):
nature of that conversationtends to be, yeah, let's get on
the let's get on a zoom, andlet's talk about all the areas
we're interested in. We'reinterested in corporate, we're
interested in antitrust, we'reinterested in findings, we're
interested in white collar,whatever it is. And they'll go
through the list and and thatis, I mean, their expectation
(10:37):
is, the law firm is, if therecruiter is actually
representing a candidate that'sin the marketplace, that's
looking they want to hear fromthat. They want to hear from
that recruiter. They want to bepart of the game, like if
there's a partner withsignificant book of business
who's who's moving in thefinance area, lots of law firms
want to talk to them, right? Andthey don't. They don't want to
(11:00):
be left out. But the danger isthat a lot of those law firms
use that as a invitation toblast like this firm is looking
to hire blank and therefore theywill send it out, even though
they really have a very goodrelationship with the with the
(11:21):
law firm itself, they'll make itsound like they've got this
great assignment and and soforth. And so that means there's
a lot more sort of traffic outthere and and it means that a
lot of times there's a lot ofmisinformation, but they don't
really have their informationand the actual your relationship
(11:42):
between the recruiter and thelaw firm, the the hiring law
firm is not that strong, and youcan't, you can't really tell,
just based on a an email, howthat's done now our our firm,
just so you get an idea of whatwe do. I mean, we will only
really go out with a story ifwe've been sort of approved to
(12:11):
recruit on that assignment.
We've gone through the whole,you know, the whole story of
what we're doing, that sort ofthing. So we've been authorized.
It doesn't have to be retainedby and we can get into that, but
we're authorized to do therecruiting in a particular area,
so that's so that's that. AndI'll tell you, one of the things
that I think you got that acandidate has to watch out. This
(12:33):
is something we run into all thetime, and it's very can be very
appealing, because it, you knowkind of works through flatter,
which is a less than ethicalrecruiter, will write a note,
whether it's LinkedIn or usuallyright these days, not that many
(12:53):
write a note to a partner,saying, I've been asked by blank
firm to reach out directly toyou to see if you're interested
in talking to them. And thenthere's a variation of what that
message is that is often a ruseand is unethical. And then that
(13:15):
if the partner says, yeah, no, II talked to them and give me
information, give whateverinformation to get. Then the
recruiter goes back to the thefirm and says, I'm working with
this partner from x firm, andhe's interested in talking to
you. So I mean, that is, that'sone of the, one of the many
(13:38):
things that unscrupulousrecruiters do. So you've got to
be have to have your your spideysense up, and you've got to make
sure you know that this isyou're talking to a recruiter
who really has a relationshipwith the firm. They're there,
they're well, how do you figurethat out?
Unknown (13:56):
You know what I do is, I always ask, is this, are you
on retention? Are you retained?
Or are you You contingent? Andusually, frankly, if they're if
they're contingent, I'm notuninterested. I'm just more
interested in working withsomebody who's been retained.
Now,
Steve (14:18):
I would make a distinction between the
professional staff side, whereit's where retainer is going to
be very important, and the thepartner side of things, where
retainers, I mean, we, we haveseveral retained searches right
now, but we do some non retainedsearches, just because there's
(14:39):
no guarantee that we do A searchfor ex partner. Are we going to
find that partner every time?
No, it's just, it's just theit's just whoever's in the
market that fits that particularfirm's requirements. You know,
it's probably less than 50%chance that they're that we're
going to, that we're going tolocate the partner they will
hire. Um. So my approach would.
(15:00):
Number one, definitely ask thatquestion. But the, but the non
retained part of it is lesson,but then asking, I would ask,
okay, so who you working with?
Unknown (15:13):
I can find at the firm, like, are you work? Are you can
they, can they name check thepartner? Or can they name check
the right of recruit. Lateralrecruiting right
Steve (15:23):
now, a lot of them will give you the name of you know,
they know the recruiter, sothey'll give you the name. But
if you you know, if you say,Well, what partner are you
working? Even if they're notnecessarily working with
partners, and most of the time,when we're doing a search like
that, we're going to talk to thepartner, yeah, as so, so we'll
have somebody we're going totalk to. Talk to. But in that
case, you know, you they shouldbe able to answer what partners
(15:46):
they want. All right, so that's,that's the first thing I would
do is to really figure out,what's your relation, what's
your real relationship? Is this,you know, that sort of thing,
because, because, again, there'sjust a lot of, yeah, yeah, you
know, there's no, you know, Ialways say, if you've got a
phone, you've got a recruiter,because there's no, there is no
(16:10):
barriers to entry to therecruiting business. So, so I
think you've got to be, becareful about that. So that's
the first thing I would do. Andthen I would, you know, I go
into a real discussion about,what's, you know, what are the
exactly they're looking for?
What is it? What the, you know,sometimes you just get that
general like, yeah, they want topartner with $2 million worth of
business. I don't, I mean, I'm Iwant more. If I'm a candidate, I
(16:34):
want to understand more. Whatthey're really looking for. Is
it a succession play? Is it anexpansion of a practice? Are
they trying to get into a newaspect of the practice? I want
to understand more about thefirm, and if, if you're just
getting, you know, pablum fromthe recruiter, you know, I'd
(16:56):
probably say thanks, but nothanks.
Unknown (17:04):
And, you know, do you, do you? Should you be listening
for, as a, as an, as a, as acandidate? Should you be
listening for sort of namebrand, uh, recruiters, for
example, you know, we, we hearabout, and this may be more on
(17:25):
the staff side, but, you know,you've got Spencer Stewart,
right? So I get a call fromSpencer Stewart, you know, it
seems legit, right? I get a callfrom McCormick group. Seems
legit. I get a call from some ofthese others that seemed legit.
Is that a? Do you think that'sa,
Steve (17:46):
yeah, I mean, clearly the well known legal recruiting
firms, of which were one ofthem, right? Um, you know, I
mean, it's good to is good tohave that? You know, that's a
positive, sure, but there's somany recruiters out there, and
that doesn't mean I wouldn'twant to say, like, you know, if
(18:06):
you've never heard of them,don't talk to them, because
firms have, you know, therecruiting firms have
relationships. There are a lotof boutique firms with one or
two people who are, who brokeaway from one of the big firms,
who are, you know, who are verycompetent. So I think that's
sort of less, less of it. Um, Idon't, wouldn't even say, I
(18:26):
mean, I used to say that ifyou're not in the location of,
like, if you're looking in inDallas, you know, you want a
Dallas recruiter, used to beable to do that, but nowadays, I
think it's with COVID andeverything. It's like the
barriers. Geographic barriersdon't mean much, but you want to
have somebody who knows themarket right, who understands
(18:47):
how the market works, and youshould certainly ask them, you
know other places you've madewith the firm, or other places
you made in the general area,whether it's practice area or in
the or in the geographic area,
Unknown (19:04):
any is a, I mean, should you be asking them, how
many people are they presenting?
Steve (19:10):
Well, again, that's it's, I don't think for a partner
search that's particularlyrelevant, because a lot of times
you know, you're, you mightonly, you may only present one
or two people, because, again,the part you know, the law firm
has the big, you know, andwe've, we've talked about the
(19:30):
book of business requirement forand the book of business
requirement really limits yourcandidates, because, let's face
it, The candidates who aregenerally interested in making a
move are the ones who don'talready have the big book of
business. They're, they're inthe process of trying to make
that change because, you know,it's not working at their firm,
(19:54):
and they've got look at anopportunity, you know, for
somebody else, they can do a lotbetter. Um, but you. Know. So
what happens a lot, I think, inthis sort of, what we call the
gray market of recruiters, isthey'll recruit on money.
They'll say, you know, I'mworking with a really profitable
firm, and they can pay you muchmore on your book of business
(20:15):
than you would make it at anyother firm, which usually is,
is, is just a lie. I mean,because, you know, pretty much
the big firms pay around thesame thing for those same kinds
of partners, maybe. And youknow, there's been, certainly in
Texas, particularly, you know,as these firms are coming into
(20:37):
town and starting new offices,they've been paying premiums. So
it's not, it's not. There areexceptions, but in general, any
any time I if I was a candidateand I saw a money focused
recruit, I would, I wouldprobably just, you know, erase
it from my screen, becausethat's just not the way you
(20:57):
should be recruiting anyway. Itshould be based on opportunity.
Better firm, better culture,better opportunity. You know,
more collegiate. Whatever it isyou need. You need something.
You know, if you're justrecruiting on money, then you
know, it's probably justsomething that recruiters just
made up. When you, when you,let's say you do author rocks a
(21:18):
firm, you know, let's say it isa good fit, and you know, you
trust them and so forth. I it'sreally important that you that
as the candidate, you set someof the ground rules for this
relationship that you had, andthe key thing is to make sure
that your resume and youridentity is is only going out to
(21:40):
that particular firm, becauseone of the one of the things we
hear, and this is particularlytrue on the associate side, less
so with partners, but doeshappen is the recruiter will
send your resume everywhere. Wewere talking to a fellow
recently who said, you know, hegave us three firms. He had, he
(22:01):
had sent his resume to, atleast, he thought he had, and
then when we got into themarket, we started making some
other inquiries. There were,like, 20 firms. And he said, I
never authorized that, you know,but the problem is, if you don't
have it in writing that you areonly, only authorized to send my
(22:24):
resume to x, they're going toend up doing it. And even if you
claim that you didn't authorizethem, you're, you're going to
get locked out of whatever firm.
This is really true withassociates again, like if
you're, if somebody's done thatto you. You can't you're sort of
in jail for six months. Youcan't recruit. You can't go
(22:46):
anywhere, because they will notconsider you as a candidate
while that somebody else hascredit for you, even if that was
never authorized, because thefirms do not want to get into a
battle between recruiters. Imean, they'll walk away from
that in on day one. So that'sthe key here. Is to make sure
you control your identity, yourresume, your future,
Unknown (23:12):
yeah, yeah. I typically won't send my resume until I've
had that conversation. So,
Steve (23:19):
but again, I've been putting I would do it in
writing, because I just thought,yeah, I don't, I mean, I just
think nowadays, having thatconversation is not good,
because there's too manycharlatans in our industry,
Unknown (23:32):
right? Is a good word, right?
Steve (23:36):
Was a great race horse named charlatan who ran a couple
years ago, but that's, that's astory for another podcast
Unknown (23:44):
that's on our equestrian podcast right, which
we're starting next week. Butalright, so now let's flip it a
little bit and flip the scripton this. And so now you're a
partner, you're an associate,or, you know, you're somebody
who's thinking, it's time to gowhat, what do you do? And how do
(24:07):
you start that process with therecruiters, which, by the way,
the recruiters know where thegood gigs are and and you know,
you can, you can. I mean, unlessyou've got a direct wire into a
firm that you want to go to, it.
It's you gotta, you gotta workwith recruit, with recruiters,
Steve (24:25):
right? All right. So I think first of all, if you, if
you've known, if you know peoplewho have moved in the last year
or two, right, people you thatyou're friendly with, you know,
you may want to call them up andask for recommendations, because
they've obviously used somebody,and sometimes it's not even the
person they used, it's somebodyelse that they considered, but
(24:47):
for one reason or another, theydidn't use them. So try to get a
sense of, okay, who's, who's,who's qualified there, who has
other people used, um, you know,you look at the, you know, um.
A, you know, National LawJournal, until recently, had a
list of the top recruiters inevery market. That's, that's
(25:09):
reasonably accurate, um, as a,you know, so sort of brand names
are good to, you know, the brandnames are probably reliable as a
possibility. And then, and then,you know, pick a couple, you
know, three or four that you'rethinking about, unless you've
already got this goodrelationship, which often you
do, you know you, you know you,you've worked with somebody
(25:31):
before. Sometimes you've workedwith them when you were looking
for somebody, or, you know, yourfirm was looking for somebody
you work on, and you reallyliked, what, how they went about
business. So that that'sobviously but then really talk
to them about what theirmethodology is, what's, what's
their approach in the market.
How well do they know? Do theyunderstand my, you know, you
know my practice, and understandwhat the nuances are? I mean, I
(25:54):
so I really think that'simportant, and also a little bit
of it again, back tomethodology. Is how you know,
how extensive can they reach?
Because I know our methodologyis such that there is only rare
(26:15):
firms that we will not be ableto you know that we cannot, uh,
contact for for a goodcandidate, sometimes because of
contract relationships orsomething else or a bad
recruiting agreement. Again,subject for another podcast. Um,
but for the most part, you knowour we can reach any firm that
(26:40):
makes sense. We want to makethis about the candidate, not
about who my clients are. And Ithink that's the stuff you want
to have from the candidate side.
Is, you know, do you have arange of firms that make sense
for me to reach out? And thenalso how, you know, I want to
work with I want to use yourexpertise. To to help me guide
(27:02):
which firms make sense for me.
Because sometimes, I mean, I cantell you that, yeah, I've been
in this business long enough,and you've been in this business
long enough, there are certainfirms that have reputations, and
generally, you know thosereputations generally are
accurate. You know, there may beexceptions, and there, you know,
(27:25):
you could, you can poke holes init, but I, you know, I can tell
you the firms that you know havehave their, you know, have a
high jerk component. And I knowfirms that are like, you know,
more collegial. Andinterestingly enough, I'm just,
this will be a plug a little bitfor something we're working on,
a we're, we're in the process ofa study of lateral attrition
(27:48):
rates at for the am law 200 so,so that'll be something that you
know you want. You want somebodywho can give you that kind of
information so that you can say,well, you know, is this firm
really right for me, you know,like, you know, I, you know,
I've got, you know, I've gotsmall kids at home. I need, you
(28:09):
know, I'm going to work hard,but I can't, you know, I can't
be in the office every day. Idon't want some firm that's just
requires me to build 2400 hours.
I've got a lot of clients, butI'm only billing 1500 right?
Makes sense for certain, certainfirms. That's, you know, you're
not, you know you're not goingto go to certain firms, if you
have that mindset, and you'vegot to have a recruiter who
(28:30):
understands the the differencesbetween firms, and there are
differences, and
Unknown (28:39):
what about our? What about our, you know, our lateral
partners, it's what's, what'sgoing on for them with, with in
terms of comp expectations andand, and are they do they need
to protect themselves more thanthe associates do, right?
Steve (28:57):
All right. Well, some, from a partner standpoint, it's,
it really, where the differencescome in are on the on the low
end and the high end. So ifyou're you know, if you're going
to a less profitable firm, theymight, they won't pay their
(29:20):
entering partners and theircouncil at a smaller firm,
there'll be some majordifference. And at the high end,
obviously, only you know, Ithink I saw something that
Simpson factor is paying a bunchof partners $20 million I mean,
you know, you can't, you know. Imean, you're not competing with
(29:41):
that at an am law 80 firm or alaw 120 firm, right? It's just,
it's just not, you know, that'sthat's on the totally high end.
It doesn't make sense. But inthe middle, you know, in the in
the sweet spot for most of thesefirms, which is really the
person who's. Of you know, at alet's take that big am law firms
(30:03):
out of it for a minute, becausethey're so high. But you know,
for for many of the firms thatwe deal with, we're talking
about partners with a million to$2 million worth of business. It
doesn't matter if you're in anam law 50 or an am law 200 for
the most part, because that'sgoing to depend a little bit
more on not the profit perpartner, but on the actual
(30:27):
overhead. So the overhead numberis sort of a forgotten number in
the am law in the am lawrankings. You know, I've had
kind of a running, I wouldn'tsay it's a feud, but a
disagreement with am law overwhat they publish and what they
don't publish, because profitper partner is the most
(30:48):
manipulated statistic out there,compensation for all partners,
less so. And then the overheadfigures, the overhead figure.
And therefore, if you're makinga change, you need to know that
overhead figure, because youcould have a, you know, again,
million dollar practice with a50% overhead figure, you should
be making $500,000 at many amlaw 100 firms, you can't make
(31:10):
500 on a million dollarpractice. So it's all, it's all,
it's all relative. It's all, youknow, it's deeping in the weeds.
And that's really one of thethings you want to have the
recruiter as as your ally interms of getting that kind of
information and understanding,you know, instead of sending me
(31:31):
just to the amlock one, I needsome, you know, a recruiter who
understands that The Compvariables, you know, is really
helpful to you to figure out,okay, I don't have to just go to
those firms to equalize what I'mmaking. Now I can go to other
firms I make more. So I thinkthat's, that's the important
(31:54):
part of it, so, so the comp is,is varied. I will say one other
thing, which is, certainly, it'dbe good if you have this before
you before you talk torecruiter, because recruiters
going to ask you these reallykey questions about your
practice. Get your statistics inorder, get, you know, figure out
(32:18):
a way, you know, you get thereports, keep them. Don't throw
them in the waste basket. Whenyou get your monthly reports and
your yearly reports, you know.
You want to have a good ideawhat your what statistics they
use. Every firm has differentstatistics. You want to have a
good idea of what your you knowwhat your originations are and
what your managed billings are,what your how many hours you
(32:40):
worked, and what's the value ofthose hours, and your
Realization. And again, therecruiter can help you that with
that process if you don'talready have it, because a good
recruiter will start asking youthose kinds of questions and try
to get it. It's harder if youdon't have that information
going in, a recruiter has moretrouble giving you, like, a
(33:01):
really good evaluation of yourchances to move. One of the
things a recruiter is reallyvaluable for as a partner
candidate, or as really, as anyother candidate, but partner in
particular, is an evaluation asto, is it in my interest to move
right now, or is it not in myinterest? I'm really doing okay
here and and a recruiter can dothat. And not only that, the
(33:25):
recruiter usually is in a goodyour your interests are aligned,
because a recruiter won't. Ifthe recruiter sees that, it's
not going to, you know, you'renot going to be able to match
what you're doing now or get abetter opportunity somewhere
else. Recruiter will tell youthat on the front end, because
recruiter doesn't want to workwith you if you're not going to
(33:46):
be somebody they can, they caneasily place. So getting that
kind of Frank evaluation, Ithink that's really important as
you you choose the recruiters.
It's not just so much. I'm readyto move I want to use you. I
want somebody who can give me areally honest assessment of
where I am. Where am I positiongetting a recruiter tell you,
(34:08):
you know you you know you reallyprobably better off staying
where you are. That could be areally valuable insight and
that, and then maybe two yearsdown the line, you'll have a
different situation. But pointis, use the recruiter to give
you a good assessment of whereyou are. Now,
Unknown (34:24):
you know something we talked about early in one of our
early, much earlier podcasts,which was related to the LPQ Is
that is that there is greatvariability in lpqs, and there's
also within lpqs, even thoughthey may be asking the same
questions, the answers can bevariable because, for example,
(34:44):
realization, okay, one, a lot ofa lot of lawyers, don't even
know what that word means, two,but, but, but also that even if
you do know what it means, it'scalculated differently at each
firm, or there's some variationof so. Guess the other thing,
not just to know your kind of,your your stats, but also know
(35:06):
how those are derived. So youcan have a discussion, a really
educated discussion about, youknow if, if your realization
number is, let's say, 75 but ifyou, if you use the calculation
of the target firm, yourrealization would be 85 that
that's a that's an importantthing for you to be able to
(35:26):
understand. But you can'tunderstand that until you
understand how your current firmis is looking at realization, is
looking at how they calculateprofits, is looking at what they
count in terms of revenues andwrite offs and all the rest of
that. That's why it behooves thepartners to pay attention to
that stuff at a kind of agranular level. You agree,
Steve (35:48):
right? I agree, and actually really appreciate my
next point, which is, if you'rea young partner or a mid level
partner somewhere, and you'renot even interested in moving,
good idea to call a recruiter,not to, not, you know, just say,
Listen, I'm not moving. But Iwould really like your input on
some things, because I'm not I'mconfused about our system, or I
(36:09):
I'd like to get more informationso recruiter can give you that
information. The best recruiterswill do that at even if they
know that they're not going toplace you anytime soon. A good
recruiter do that, becausethat's part of their that's part
of the reason they becamerecruiters. They want to help
people in their in their careerprospects, and they're willing
to take time out to help people,even if there's no, you know,
(36:34):
immediate stream of money comingdown the line. No,
Unknown (36:37):
yeah, I'll tell you, from my own experience, just
from my experience, you want towork with, with recruiters who
are investing themselves in youand your future. It just, it
just, it's, it's, it's a muchmore you wind up with much
better results, and you wind upwith better relationships,
Steve (36:56):
right? And I think this might have been, this may be
implied, but I want to justemphasize the fact that when you
start, when you start yourprocess of making a change,
whether it's associate or apartner, try to work with just
one recruit.
Unknown (37:12):
That was gonna be my next question.
Steve (37:15):
Occasionally, you'll have situations that come up because
somebody reached out to youdirectly, or you had a previous
relationship, and you have oneoffs here and there, which
that's fine. I mean that thathappens, but the idea of trying
to, you know, you know, usemultiple recruiters, you know,
(37:37):
what happens is the partnerwho's desperate to make a change
because their firm's closing, orthey've been asked to leave, or
whatever, they will call all therecruiters out there and say,
What do you got? What do yougot? And that's, you know, you
know, once you once, it becomesclear that that you're not the
(37:57):
recruiter of choice. But thisperson called you, I'm not going
to spend very much time withsomebody if I know that they've
got three other recruitersthrowing firms at them. And then
every time I come up with a withan idea, they say, Well, yeah,
so I really think that it's inyour interest to really work
with one, one prime recruiter.
Let's put that way, and thenoccasionally, some others might,
(38:21):
you know, might be involvedbecause of particular
relationship, one way or theother. So that, that I did want
to emphasize, and thatparticularly true with
Associates,
Unknown (38:34):
and that you know, that's all the more reason to
have those sort of marketplaceconversations with the
recruiters, because you start toget to know him, you start to
develop relationships with andyou start to figure out who you
want to work with, right? Youknow, I really like talking to
Steve, and he seems to knowwhat's going on, and I'm ready
to make that move. And Steve'smy guy, but you don't know
(38:57):
Steve's your guy until you spenda little time with Steve.
Because you know what they sayto know him is to love him. So
you know that's that's aboutyou. Steve, thanks, Murray,
alright. I'm sorry that was my,that was my very lame attempt at
(39:17):
at some humor here. Steve, but,but anyhow, anything else you
want to make sure we cover? No,
Steve (39:27):
I think we've covered it.
I think we've covered it. Youknow, it's, it's just important
to, is to really, I say, prepareand make sure you ask the right
questions that this is a personthat you, you know, there's
usually no contract involved inthis, so it's important to at
least get an understanding ofwhat the responsibilities on
both sides are.
Unknown (39:50):
You know, this may not be fully something to fully talk
about in another, in another, inanother podcast. So maybe we.
And answer it here, just theidea of the counter. What?
Because counters happen a lot,and what's your take on the on
(40:11):
the counter? Don't take them,but, but why? I mean, because I
You hear that, and it's, I mean,you hear that from a recruiter,
and you think, Oh, well, that'sbecause Steve's not going to get
his, you know, his money.
There's a real reason for that,
Steve (40:26):
right? I think it's, you know, for the most part, you've
made a decision to make achange, right, based on certain
things that you're not gettingat your firm, or that someone
else is is offering you that youdon't, you can't get at your
firm, right? There's some issuethat's going on that has that's
(40:49):
just not about, I mean, moneycan be part of it, but it's
usually not about money. So whatif you know what your your
existing firm will always comeback with more money, and
they'll come up with maybe somepromises. But, you know, I don't
know whether you know, can theyreally keep them or not? You
(41:10):
know, if they really valued you,they would have already, I'm
sure you've had conversationswith them about your your
frustrations, and they haven'tdone anything about them. So you
know, do you really think thatjust because you, you know, you,
you put their feet to the fire,they're going to actually
change, change their approach?
Probably not. And, you know,it's funny, because I, when I
started this business, you knowrecruiters, McCormick group,
(41:33):
would tell me, you know, 60% ofeverybody, recruiters, I mean,
of candidates who take counteroffers leave within the first
year, you know? And I thought,well, that's just, you know,
they're just puffing. That can'tbe true. Well, you know what?
It's pretty close to that. Yeah,that was a Forbes study within
the last year or two, somewherebetween 40 and 50% so, you know,
(41:55):
it's, it's, you're just notsolving the problem and, and,
you know, you know, you, you, Imean, you know, there are
situations that that it canwork, actually, was. It happened
to me once, when I was back inwhen I my journalism career, I
(42:17):
was leaving because I had, I,you know, I had an issue with
with my superior, and we werejust weren't getting along very
well, and I felt like I justcouldn't do that any longer, and
I had to leave do something,something a little different.
Because, you know, I was, youknow, I was just getting
frustrated. And was between thetime I accepted the job, or
right after I accept the job,she quit. So, so that did change
(42:42):
it a little bit, but that was anexcept, the exception. Rather,
Unknown (42:50):
I think that's the exception, and that's a
different set of circumstances.
And you're right. I mean, also,if you've made that
psychological commitment toleave, you've made it and and
whether you do it then, or, youknow, as this Forbes report
says, you know, maybe it's alittle bit in the distance, but
I will tell you that that timeperiod from the point that you
make the psychological decisionto walk out and go to the next
(43:13):
opportunity and then accept theand then accept the counter that
time until you actuallyultimately leave. And you will
ultimately leave, um, will suck.
It will just suck. That's,
Steve (43:28):
that's the problem, and, and nowadays with, you know,
with background checks. I mean,even though you resign after
the, you know, resign at thebackground checks, but the firms
can try to hold on to you alittle longer than they used to,
yeah, and that's just, it's,it's, it's really, it's a tough,
it's a tough period of time. Andthey, they, they really get to
(43:49):
you, and they try to give youall of the, you know, all the
excuses and all of the thingsthat will change that sort of
thing. So it's really hard. Therecruiter can help you through
that. But I can understand thatthere's a, I mean, totally
understand it where thecandidate thinks, well, the
recruiter wants to protect theirfeet, and that's actually true,
(44:13):
but, but on the other hand, thegood recruiters a look out for
the for the, you know, for thebest interest of their
candidates. I mean, I know notso much in the counteroffer
situation, but there have beensituations, uh, during a
process, where I tell acandidate, you know what, this
opportunity isn't, right,they're telling you too many
(44:34):
things about this opportunity.
That's not what we anticipated,that I think, you know, let's
walk away from this. A goodrecruiter will do that because,
again, they're valuing therelationship, the long term
relationship, with thecandidate, and not looking for
the quick fee.
Unknown (44:53):
All right, Steve, Well, I think we've, we've covered all
the bases and then some on thistopic. Thank you. You. Always,
always great to get the theinsights of somebody with a
level of experience that you'vehad and your team has had in in
doing this kind of work. And Ialways learn a thing or two
through these, thesediscussions. So thank you, and
(45:16):
we'll close until our next untilour next edition. Alright, that
sounds good. All right, talk toyou soon, Steve. All right, take
care. You.
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of M Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professional into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others.
Steve (01:05):
Hey, Steve, how are you okay? How are you doing? Murray,
I'm
Unknown (01:10):
doing great. I'm doing great. Summer is starting to
starting to get off to a runhere in beautiful Dallas, Texas,
we are having nearly tripledigits already this early in
June, which is unusual for us,but won't be unusual in the next
couple of weeks. It's darn hot,though. Yeah,
Steve (01:28):
we've gotten the our best weather the last week that we've
had all since, you know, sincelast year, we had four or five
good days in a row. So I'll take
Unknown (01:37):
it and when look where the weather's lovely in in your
neck of the woods. It's, it's,it's really nice. It's
beautiful. So that's great, blueskies and all so, so listen,
we're going to talk today abouta couple of cool, interesting
things. We're taking a slightlydifferent approach than we have
in the past, and we're going toput but so we're going to be
(01:58):
talking about the kind of kindof best practices in how one
manages inbound calls and andinquiries from recruiters, and
also what you as a candidate.
Number two is what you as acandidate need to be doing if
you think it's time for you toto make a move right and correct
(02:19):
and but, but, but, before we dothat, as we often do, we are
going to take a quick look atsome of the intel that McCormick
group has been putting together.
As you know, they're, they're,they're famous for their intel,
(02:40):
understanding markets andderiving a lot of a lot of
insight from the Intel work thatthey've been doing. And I think
you've got some some interestingnews to share with the folks. So
Steve, why don't you go for it?
Okay,
Steve (02:55):
so we just completed, well, we come a couple weeks
ago, we completed April, theApril recruiting and April was
the best month by far. So far,2024 and have actually made up
for what we found at least inour DC and Texas market studies,
(03:16):
where the actual number oflaterals was trailing a little
bit from 2023 April forced us,forced both numbers ahead of
pace. So April was a huge month,and that was unexpected, because
usually the it's February, Marchis usually the big months,
right? But I think a couple ofthings are going on this year
(03:38):
that have made that happen. Oneis, I think the firms have been
a little later in paying out thebonuses and distributions, and I
think that once they've donethat, it's taken partners a
little longer to finish theprocess. Usually they're pretty
close, you know, they've goteverything done except the final
agreement, you know, inDecember, and they wait and they
(04:01):
wait until the bonus comes. ButI think the conflict checking in
particular is taking longer todo. I think firms are really
careful about it. And there wasone fairly celebrated incident
that occurred in the month ofApril, actually, if somebody had
moved in March, and she had amove again in April, because the
(04:21):
conflict, the conflicts turnedout, you know, to be they didn't
run the conflicts problem, andso she had to move again. So
we're not going, we won't gointo specific names, but if you,
if you check your, if you're upon your American lawyer, you
could probably find it out, did,
Unknown (04:38):
did did they move back to,
Steve (04:40):
they went to a new firm.
They didn't go the originalfirm, since three firms, right,
exactly, right. This person wasclearly valuable, but had to,
had to go to plan B, so tospeak. And maybe they were
already, you know, good, andwe're going to get to this a
little bit, but they wereprobably talking to. Both firms
during the process. She choseFirm A, and then Firm A ran into
(05:04):
conflicts. You know, I ran intoconflicts after she accepted,
actually, she started and shewent to, you know, she went to
firm B. So, anyway, so, butwe've heard from others that
conflicts is taking a lot longerto finish. Firms are being extra
careful. And, you know,relationship partners are
holding things up because theywant to make sure that the
(05:27):
client, that their existingclient isn't gonna have a
problem. And I think that, youknow, I think just gets
complicated, and I think that'sdelaying things. So that was
April. I expect, I expect,expect may to be pretty solid,
although probably not as good asApril, but I think we're again.
I think we're going to berunning a little bit ahead of
last year's pace. Yeah,
Unknown (05:49):
the other thing I know too that clients just are
getting very picky about anykind of, any kind of conflict
waiver requests that are comingin. It's just they're saying,
you know, you got to figure outwho you want to do business
with, right? And, and it'sthey're getting sticky about
(06:11):
that, which, I don't blame them.
I don't blame the clients for aminute, you know, to be a little
pickier about that, right?
Because, you know, it does. Itmay not benefit them in a long,
long run. And that's that's notgreat the for in the DC market.
Now, we didn't, we didn't prediscuss this before, but in the
(06:32):
DC market, any you're seeing,any, any, think the numbers
were, were nudged along at allby, by the national elections
that are coming up. I knowhistorically, you said it kind
of, it kind of tamps down thingsfor a little bit, especially
right now, because it's just
Steve (06:50):
well government there.
Yeah, there were a good numberof government moves in April,
and so I think that did pick up.
I think they're largely in areasof of like non controversy,
terms of political so a lot ofwhite collar types are moving,
and I trust people continue tomove, because I think the
(07:13):
antitrust will be there one wayor another with whichever,
whichever party gets into power.
So, so I think that that itwill, it will continue. I mean,
the other thing is big right nowis data privacy, cyber security,
and that's been a big, big boomas well.
Unknown (07:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely and you're seeing it
all over, the firms arerecruiting folks from all over
the place. It'll be interestingto see how, how, how, you know,
how much of that holds waterafter, after a little while, is
there's a lot of people claiminglevels of of skill and knowledge
that maybe are almost impossibleto actually have. But so let's,
(08:00):
let's, anything else on theIntel side, anything you're
seeing that you anything elsewant to share?
Steve (08:07):
No, not for not, yeah, not right now. I think we're, I
think it's even a pretty solidmonth. I continue, it continues
to be solid. No major sort of,like, surprising changes other
than that April blimp,
Unknown (08:19):
yeah. Yeah, interesting. Okay, so, as we
alluded to earlier, we're gonna,we're gonna switch gears here a
little bit. And, you know, we'vebeen talking, in most cases,
sort of about the way thelateral process, lateral
recruiting process works, and,and things about, about how to
consider pay and, and, and, youknow, a lot lots, lots of kind
(08:44):
of the granular details. Buttoday we're going to talk about
the little bit more about thecandidate experience. And so the
first, first bit is somethingthat I think those of us who
have been in the business for awhile have experience with and
(09:04):
have also, you know, frankly,had some bad experiences with,
and that is when the phonerings, or the LinkedIn,
LinkedIn, you know, message popsup, or the DM pops up from a
recruiter saying, Hey, I've I'vegot a I've got a opportunity. I
want to talk to you about andkind of what happens from there,
(09:28):
and what you as a candidate needto be thinking about. So Steve,
first of all, take us throughsort of what happens with the
recruiter before they are makingthat outreach. Generally
speaking, I know some, some ofthem just do a shotgun but, but
recruiters like yourself, whoare very, who are kind of very
studied and very determinedabout what you do, what are you
(09:50):
doing before you make
Steve (09:52):
the Yeah, so you're right in that there's a shotgun
approach and and there are. Um,you know, I think, what's one of
the problems, I think you runinto, is that, um, it really
goes back to the law firms. Lawfirms will talk to any number of
recruiters out there and telltheir story. And the kind of the
(10:16):
nature of that conversationtends to be, yeah, let's get on
the let's get on a zoom, andlet's talk about all the areas
we're interested in. We'reinterested in corporate, we're
interested in antitrust, we'reinterested in findings, we're
interested in white collar,whatever it is. And they'll go
through the list and and thatis, I mean, their expectation
(10:37):
is, the law firm is, if therecruiter is actually
representing a candidate that'sin the marketplace, that's
looking they want to hear fromthat. They want to hear from
that recruiter. They want to bepart of the game, like if
there's a partner withsignificant book of business
who's who's moving in thefinance area, lots of law firms
want to talk to them, right? Andthey don't. They don't want to
(11:00):
be left out. But the danger isthat a lot of those law firms
use that as a invitation toblast like this firm is looking
to hire blank and therefore theywill send it out, even though
they really have a very goodrelationship with the with the
(11:21):
law firm itself, they'll make itsound like they've got this
great assignment and and soforth. And so that means there's
a lot more sort of traffic outthere and and it means that a
lot of times there's a lot ofmisinformation, but they don't
really have their informationand the actual your relationship
(11:42):
between the recruiter and thelaw firm, the the hiring law
firm is not that strong, and youcan't, you can't really tell,
just based on a an email, howthat's done now our our firm,
just so you get an idea of whatwe do. I mean, we will only
really go out with a story ifwe've been sort of approved to
(12:11):
recruit on that assignment.
We've gone through the whole,you know, the whole story of
what we're doing, that sort ofthing. So we've been authorized.
It doesn't have to be retainedby and we can get into that, but
we're authorized to do therecruiting in a particular area,
so that's so that's that. AndI'll tell you, one of the things
that I think you got that acandidate has to watch out. This
(12:33):
is something we run into all thetime, and it's very can be very
appealing, because it, you knowkind of works through flatter,
which is a less than ethicalrecruiter, will write a note,
whether it's LinkedIn or usuallyright these days, not that many
(12:53):
write a note to a partner,saying, I've been asked by blank
firm to reach out directly toyou to see if you're interested
in talking to them. And thenthere's a variation of what that
message is that is often a ruseand is unethical. And then that
(13:15):
if the partner says, yeah, no, II talked to them and give me
information, give whateverinformation to get. Then the
recruiter goes back to the thefirm and says, I'm working with
this partner from x firm, andhe's interested in talking to
you. So I mean, that is, that'sone of the, one of the many
(13:38):
things that unscrupulousrecruiters do. So you've got to
be have to have your your spideysense up, and you've got to make
sure you know that this isyou're talking to a recruiter
who really has a relationshipwith the firm. They're there,
they're well, how do you figurethat out?
Unknown (13:56):
You know what I do is, I always ask, is this, are you
on retention? Are you retained?
Or are you You contingent? Andusually, frankly, if they're if
they're contingent, I'm notuninterested. I'm just more
interested in working withsomebody who's been retained.
Now,
Steve (14:18):
I would make a distinction between the
professional staff side, whereit's where retainer is going to
be very important, and the thepartner side of things, where
retainers, I mean, we, we haveseveral retained searches right
now, but we do some non retainedsearches, just because there's
(14:39):
no guarantee that we do A searchfor ex partner. Are we going to
find that partner every time?
No, it's just, it's just theit's just whoever's in the
market that fits that particularfirm's requirements. You know,
it's probably less than 50%chance that they're that we're
going to, that we're going tolocate the partner they will
hire. Um. So my approach would.
(15:00):
Number one, definitely ask thatquestion. But the, but the non
retained part of it is lesson,but then asking, I would ask,
okay, so who you working with?
Unknown (15:13):
I can find at the firm, like, are you work? Are you can
they, can they name check thepartner? Or can they name check
the right of recruit. Lateralrecruiting right
Steve (15:23):
now, a lot of them will give you the name of you know,
they know the recruiter, sothey'll give you the name. But
if you you know, if you say,Well, what partner are you
working? Even if they're notnecessarily working with
partners, and most of the time,when we're doing a search like
that, we're going to talk to thepartner, yeah, as so, so we'll
have somebody we're going totalk to. Talk to. But in that
case, you know, you they shouldbe able to answer what partners
(15:46):
they want. All right, so that's,that's the first thing I would
do is to really figure out,what's your relation, what's
your real relationship? Is this,you know, that sort of thing,
because, because, again, there'sjust a lot of, yeah, yeah, you
know, there's no, you know, Ialways say, if you've got a
phone, you've got a recruiter,because there's no, there is no
(16:10):
barriers to entry to therecruiting business. So, so I
think you've got to be, becareful about that. So that's
the first thing I would do. Andthen I would, you know, I go
into a real discussion about,what's, you know, what are the
exactly they're looking for?
What is it? What the, you know,sometimes you just get that
general like, yeah, they want topartner with $2 million worth of
business. I don't, I mean, I'm Iwant more. If I'm a candidate, I
(16:34):
want to understand more. Whatthey're really looking for. Is
it a succession play? Is it anexpansion of a practice? Are
they trying to get into a newaspect of the practice? I want
to understand more about thefirm, and if, if you're just
getting, you know, pablum fromthe recruiter, you know, I'd
(16:56):
probably say thanks, but nothanks.
Unknown (17:04):
And, you know, do you, do you? Should you be listening
for, as a, as an, as a, as acandidate? Should you be
listening for sort of namebrand, uh, recruiters, for
example, you know, we, we hearabout, and this may be more on
(17:25):
the staff side, but, you know,you've got Spencer Stewart,
right? So I get a call fromSpencer Stewart, you know, it
seems legit, right? I get a callfrom McCormick group. Seems
legit. I get a call from some ofthese others that seemed legit.
Is that a? Do you think that'sa,
Steve (17:46):
yeah, I mean, clearly the well known legal recruiting
firms, of which were one ofthem, right? Um, you know, I
mean, it's good to is good tohave that? You know, that's a
positive, sure, but there's somany recruiters out there, and
that doesn't mean I wouldn'twant to say, like, you know, if
(18:06):
you've never heard of them,don't talk to them, because
firms have, you know, therecruiting firms have
relationships. There are a lotof boutique firms with one or
two people who are, who brokeaway from one of the big firms,
who are, you know, who are verycompetent. So I think that's
sort of less, less of it. Um, Idon't, wouldn't even say, I
(18:26):
mean, I used to say that ifyou're not in the location of,
like, if you're looking in inDallas, you know, you want a
Dallas recruiter, used to beable to do that, but nowadays, I
think it's with COVID andeverything. It's like the
barriers. Geographic barriersdon't mean much, but you want to
have somebody who knows themarket right, who understands
(18:47):
how the market works, and youshould certainly ask them, you
know other places you've madewith the firm, or other places
you made in the general area,whether it's practice area or in
the or in the geographic area,
Unknown (19:04):
any is a, I mean, should you be asking them, how
many people are they presenting?
Steve (19:10):
Well, again, that's it's, I don't think for a partner
search that's particularlyrelevant, because a lot of times
you know, you're, you mightonly, you may only present one
or two people, because, again,the part you know, the law firm
has the big, you know, andwe've, we've talked about the
(19:30):
book of business requirement forand the book of business
requirement really limits yourcandidates, because, let's face
it, The candidates who aregenerally interested in making a
move are the ones who don'talready have the big book of
business. They're, they're inthe process of trying to make
that change because, you know,it's not working at their firm,
(19:54):
and they've got look at anopportunity, you know, for
somebody else, they can do a lotbetter. Um, but you. Know. So
what happens a lot, I think, inthis sort of, what we call the
gray market of recruiters, isthey'll recruit on money.
They'll say, you know, I'mworking with a really profitable
firm, and they can pay you muchmore on your book of business
(20:15):
than you would make it at anyother firm, which usually is,
is, is just a lie. I mean,because, you know, pretty much
the big firms pay around thesame thing for those same kinds
of partners, maybe. And youknow, there's been, certainly in
Texas, particularly, you know,as these firms are coming into
(20:37):
town and starting new offices,they've been paying premiums. So
it's not, it's not. There areexceptions, but in general, any
any time I if I was a candidateand I saw a money focused
recruit, I would, I wouldprobably just, you know, erase
it from my screen, becausethat's just not the way you
(20:57):
should be recruiting anyway. Itshould be based on opportunity.
Better firm, better culture,better opportunity. You know,
more collegiate. Whatever it isyou need. You need something.
You know, if you're justrecruiting on money, then you
know, it's probably justsomething that recruiters just
made up. When you, when you,let's say you do author rocks a
(21:18):
firm, you know, let's say it isa good fit, and you know, you
trust them and so forth. I it'sreally important that you that
as the candidate, you set someof the ground rules for this
relationship that you had, andthe key thing is to make sure
that your resume and youridentity is is only going out to
(21:40):
that particular firm, becauseone of the one of the things we
hear, and this is particularlytrue on the associate side, less
so with partners, but doeshappen is the recruiter will
send your resume everywhere. Wewere talking to a fellow
recently who said, you know, hegave us three firms. He had, he
(22:01):
had sent his resume to, atleast, he thought he had, and
then when we got into themarket, we started making some
other inquiries. There were,like, 20 firms. And he said, I
never authorized that, you know,but the problem is, if you don't
have it in writing that you areonly, only authorized to send my
(22:24):
resume to x, they're going toend up doing it. And even if you
claim that you didn't authorizethem, you're, you're going to
get locked out of whatever firm.
This is really true withassociates again, like if
you're, if somebody's done thatto you. You can't you're sort of
in jail for six months. Youcan't recruit. You can't go
(22:46):
anywhere, because they will notconsider you as a candidate
while that somebody else hascredit for you, even if that was
never authorized, because thefirms do not want to get into a
battle between recruiters. Imean, they'll walk away from
that in on day one. So that'sthe key here. Is to make sure
you control your identity, yourresume, your future,
Unknown (23:12):
yeah, yeah. I typically won't send my resume until I've
had that conversation. So,
Steve (23:19):
but again, I've been putting I would do it in
writing, because I just thought,yeah, I don't, I mean, I just
think nowadays, having thatconversation is not good,
because there's too manycharlatans in our industry,
Unknown (23:32):
right? Is a good word, right?
Steve (23:36):
Was a great race horse named charlatan who ran a couple
years ago, but that's, that's astory for another podcast
Unknown (23:44):
that's on our equestrian podcast right, which
we're starting next week. Butalright, so now let's flip it a
little bit and flip the scripton this. And so now you're a
partner, you're an associate,or, you know, you're somebody
who's thinking, it's time to gowhat, what do you do? And how do
(24:07):
you start that process with therecruiters, which, by the way,
the recruiters know where thegood gigs are and and you know,
you can, you can. I mean, unlessyou've got a direct wire into a
firm that you want to go to, it.
It's you gotta, you gotta workwith recruit, with recruiters,
Steve (24:25):
right? All right. So I think first of all, if you, if
you've known, if you know peoplewho have moved in the last year
or two, right, people you thatyou're friendly with, you know,
you may want to call them up andask for recommendations, because
they've obviously used somebody,and sometimes it's not even the
person they used, it's somebodyelse that they considered, but
(24:47):
for one reason or another, theydidn't use them. So try to get a
sense of, okay, who's, who's,who's qualified there, who has
other people used, um, you know,you look at the, you know, um.
A, you know, National LawJournal, until recently, had a
list of the top recruiters inevery market. That's, that's
(25:09):
reasonably accurate, um, as a,you know, so sort of brand names
are good to, you know, the brandnames are probably reliable as a
possibility. And then, and then,you know, pick a couple, you
know, three or four that you'rethinking about, unless you've
already got this goodrelationship, which often you
do, you know you, you know you,you've worked with somebody
(25:31):
before. Sometimes you've workedwith them when you were looking
for somebody, or, you know, yourfirm was looking for somebody
you work on, and you reallyliked, what, how they went about
business. So that that'sobviously but then really talk
to them about what theirmethodology is, what's, what's
their approach in the market.
How well do they know? Do theyunderstand my, you know, you
know my practice, and understandwhat the nuances are? I mean, I
(25:54):
so I really think that'simportant, and also a little bit
of it again, back tomethodology. Is how you know,
how extensive can they reach?
Because I know our methodologyis such that there is only rare
(26:15):
firms that we will not be ableto you know that we cannot, uh,
contact for for a goodcandidate, sometimes because of
contract relationships orsomething else or a bad
recruiting agreement. Again,subject for another podcast. Um,
but for the most part, you knowour we can reach any firm that
(26:40):
makes sense. We want to makethis about the candidate, not
about who my clients are. And Ithink that's the stuff you want
to have from the candidate side.
Is, you know, do you have arange of firms that make sense
for me to reach out? And thenalso how, you know, I want to
work with I want to use yourexpertise. To to help me guide
(27:02):
which firms make sense for me.
Because sometimes, I mean, I cantell you that, yeah, I've been
in this business long enough,and you've been in this business
long enough, there are certainfirms that have reputations, and
generally, you know thosereputations generally are
accurate. You know, there may beexceptions, and there, you know,
(27:25):
you could, you can poke holes init, but I, you know, I can tell
you the firms that you know havehave their, you know, have a
high jerk component. And I knowfirms that are like, you know,
more collegial. Andinterestingly enough, I'm just,
this will be a plug a little bitfor something we're working on,
a we're, we're in the process ofa study of lateral attrition
(27:48):
rates at for the am law 200 so,so that'll be something that you
know you want. You want somebodywho can give you that kind of
information so that you can say,well, you know, is this firm
really right for me, you know,like, you know, I, you know,
I've got, you know, I've gotsmall kids at home. I need, you
(28:09):
know, I'm going to work hard,but I can't, you know, I can't
be in the office every day. Idon't want some firm that's just
requires me to build 2400 hours.
I've got a lot of clients, butI'm only billing 1500 right?
Makes sense for certain, certainfirms. That's, you know, you're
not, you know you're not goingto go to certain firms, if you
have that mindset, and you'vegot to have a recruiter who
(28:30):
understands the the differencesbetween firms, and there are
differences, and
Unknown (28:39):
what about our? What about our, you know, our lateral
partners, it's what's, what'sgoing on for them with, with in
terms of comp expectations andand, and are they do they need
to protect themselves more thanthe associates do, right?
Steve (28:57):
All right. Well, some, from a partner standpoint, it's,
it really, where the differencescome in are on the on the low
end and the high end. So ifyou're you know, if you're going
to a less profitable firm, theymight, they won't pay their
(29:20):
entering partners and theircouncil at a smaller firm,
there'll be some majordifference. And at the high end,
obviously, only you know, Ithink I saw something that
Simpson factor is paying a bunchof partners $20 million I mean,
you know, you can't, you know. Imean, you're not competing with
(29:41):
that at an am law 80 firm or alaw 120 firm, right? It's just,
it's just not, you know, that'sthat's on the totally high end.
It doesn't make sense. But inthe middle, you know, in the in
the sweet spot for most of thesefirms, which is really the
person who's. Of you know, at alet's take that big am law firms
(30:03):
out of it for a minute, becausethey're so high. But you know,
for for many of the firms thatwe deal with, we're talking
about partners with a million to$2 million worth of business. It
doesn't matter if you're in anam law 50 or an am law 200 for
the most part, because that'sgoing to depend a little bit
more on not the profit perpartner, but on the actual
(30:27):
overhead. So the overhead numberis sort of a forgotten number in
the am law in the am lawrankings. You know, I've had
kind of a running, I wouldn'tsay it's a feud, but a
disagreement with am law overwhat they publish and what they
don't publish, because profitper partner is the most
(30:48):
manipulated statistic out there,compensation for all partners,
less so. And then the overheadfigures, the overhead figure.
And therefore, if you're makinga change, you need to know that
overhead figure, because youcould have a, you know, again,
million dollar practice with a50% overhead figure, you should
be making $500,000 at many amlaw 100 firms, you can't make
(31:10):
500 on a million dollarpractice. So it's all, it's all,
it's all relative. It's all, youknow, it's deeping in the weeds.
And that's really one of thethings you want to have the
recruiter as as your ally interms of getting that kind of
information and understanding,you know, instead of sending me
(31:31):
just to the amlock one, I needsome, you know, a recruiter who
understands that The Compvariables, you know, is really
helpful to you to figure out,okay, I don't have to just go to
those firms to equalize what I'mmaking. Now I can go to other
firms I make more. So I thinkthat's, that's the important
(31:54):
part of it, so, so the comp is,is varied. I will say one other
thing, which is, certainly, it'dbe good if you have this before
you before you talk torecruiter, because recruiters
going to ask you these reallykey questions about your
practice. Get your statistics inorder, get, you know, figure out
(32:18):
a way, you know, you get thereports, keep them. Don't throw
them in the waste basket. Whenyou get your monthly reports and
your yearly reports, you know.
You want to have a good ideawhat your what statistics they
use. Every firm has differentstatistics. You want to have a
good idea of what your you knowwhat your originations are and
what your managed billings are,what your how many hours you
(32:40):
worked, and what's the value ofthose hours, and your
Realization. And again, therecruiter can help you that with
that process if you don'talready have it, because a good
recruiter will start asking youthose kinds of questions and try
to get it. It's harder if youdon't have that information
going in, a recruiter has moretrouble giving you, like, a
(33:01):
really good evaluation of yourchances to move. One of the
things a recruiter is reallyvaluable for as a partner
candidate, or as really, as anyother candidate, but partner in
particular, is an evaluation asto, is it in my interest to move
right now, or is it not in myinterest? I'm really doing okay
here and and a recruiter can dothat. And not only that, the
(33:25):
recruiter usually is in a goodyour your interests are aligned,
because a recruiter won't. Ifthe recruiter sees that, it's
not going to, you know, you'renot going to be able to match
what you're doing now or get abetter opportunity somewhere
else. Recruiter will tell youthat on the front end, because
recruiter doesn't want to workwith you if you're not going to
(33:46):
be somebody they can, they caneasily place. So getting that
kind of Frank evaluation, Ithink that's really important as
you you choose the recruiters.
It's not just so much. I'm readyto move I want to use you. I
want somebody who can give me areally honest assessment of
where I am. Where am I positiongetting a recruiter tell you,
(34:08):
you know you you know you reallyprobably better off staying
where you are. That could be areally valuable insight and
that, and then maybe two yearsdown the line, you'll have a
different situation. But pointis, use the recruiter to give
you a good assessment of whereyou are. Now,
Unknown (34:24):
you know something we talked about early in one of our
early, much earlier podcasts,which was related to the LPQ Is
that is that there is greatvariability in lpqs, and there's
also within lpqs, even thoughthey may be asking the same
questions, the answers can bevariable because, for example,
(34:44):
realization, okay, one, a lot ofa lot of lawyers, don't even
know what that word means, two,but, but, but also that even if
you do know what it means, it'scalculated differently at each
firm, or there's some variationof so. Guess the other thing,
not just to know your kind of,your your stats, but also know
(35:06):
how those are derived. So youcan have a discussion, a really
educated discussion about, youknow if, if your realization
number is, let's say, 75 but ifyou, if you use the calculation
of the target firm, yourrealization would be 85 that
that's a that's an importantthing for you to be able to
(35:26):
understand. But you can'tunderstand that until you
understand how your current firmis is looking at realization, is
looking at how they calculateprofits, is looking at what they
count in terms of revenues andwrite offs and all the rest of
that. That's why it behooves thepartners to pay attention to
that stuff at a kind of agranular level. You agree,
Steve (35:48):
right? I agree, and actually really appreciate my
next point, which is, if you'rea young partner or a mid level
partner somewhere, and you'renot even interested in moving,
good idea to call a recruiter,not to, not, you know, just say,
Listen, I'm not moving. But Iwould really like your input on
some things, because I'm not I'mconfused about our system, or I
(36:09):
I'd like to get more informationso recruiter can give you that
information. The best recruiterswill do that at even if they
know that they're not going toplace you anytime soon. A good
recruiter do that, becausethat's part of their that's part
of the reason they becamerecruiters. They want to help
people in their in their careerprospects, and they're willing
to take time out to help people,even if there's no, you know,
(36:34):
immediate stream of money comingdown the line. No,
Unknown (36:37):
yeah, I'll tell you, from my own experience, just
from my experience, you want towork with, with recruiters who
are investing themselves in youand your future. It just, it
just, it's, it's, it's a muchmore you wind up with much
better results, and you wind upwith better relationships,
Steve (36:56):
right? And I think this might have been, this may be
implied, but I want to justemphasize the fact that when you
start, when you start yourprocess of making a change,
whether it's associate or apartner, try to work with just
one recruit.
Unknown (37:12):
That was gonna be my next question.
Steve (37:15):
Occasionally, you'll have situations that come up because
somebody reached out to youdirectly, or you had a previous
relationship, and you have oneoffs here and there, which
that's fine. I mean that thathappens, but the idea of trying
to, you know, you know, usemultiple recruiters, you know,
(37:37):
what happens is the partnerwho's desperate to make a change
because their firm's closing, orthey've been asked to leave, or
whatever, they will call all therecruiters out there and say,
What do you got? What do yougot? And that's, you know, you
know, once you once, it becomesclear that that you're not the
(37:57):
recruiter of choice. But thisperson called you, I'm not going
to spend very much time withsomebody if I know that they've
got three other recruitersthrowing firms at them. And then
every time I come up with a withan idea, they say, Well, yeah,
so I really think that it's inyour interest to really work
with one, one prime recruiter.
Let's put that way, and thenoccasionally, some others might,
(38:21):
you know, might be involvedbecause of particular
relationship, one way or theother. So that, that I did want
to emphasize, and thatparticularly true with
Associates,
Unknown (38:34):
and that you know, that's all the more reason to
have those sort of marketplaceconversations with the
recruiters, because you start toget to know him, you start to
develop relationships with andyou start to figure out who you
want to work with, right? Youknow, I really like talking to
Steve, and he seems to knowwhat's going on, and I'm ready
to make that move. And Steve'smy guy, but you don't know
(38:57):
Steve's your guy until you spenda little time with Steve.
Because you know what they sayto know him is to love him. So
you know that's that's aboutyou. Steve, thanks, Murray,
alright. I'm sorry that was my,that was my very lame attempt at
(39:17):
at some humor here. Steve, but,but anyhow, anything else you
want to make sure we cover? No,
Steve (39:27):
I think we've covered it.
I think we've covered it. Youknow, it's, it's just important
to, is to really, I say, prepareand make sure you ask the right
questions that this is a personthat you, you know, there's
usually no contract involved inthis, so it's important to at
least get an understanding ofwhat the responsibilities on
both sides are.
Unknown (39:50):
You know, this may not be fully something to fully talk
about in another, in another, inanother podcast. So maybe we.
And answer it here, just theidea of the counter. What?
Because counters happen a lot,and what's your take on the on
(40:11):
the counter? Don't take them,but, but why? I mean, because I
You hear that, and it's, I mean,you hear that from a recruiter,
and you think, Oh, well, that'sbecause Steve's not going to get
his, you know, his money.
There's a real reason for that,
Steve (40:26):
right? I think it's, you know, for the most part, you've
made a decision to make achange, right, based on certain
things that you're not gettingat your firm, or that someone
else is is offering you that youdon't, you can't get at your
firm, right? There's some issuethat's going on that has that's
(40:49):
just not about, I mean, moneycan be part of it, but it's
usually not about money. So whatif you know what your your
existing firm will always comeback with more money, and
they'll come up with maybe somepromises. But, you know, I don't
know whether you know, can theyreally keep them or not? You
(41:10):
know, if they really valued you,they would have already, I'm
sure you've had conversationswith them about your your
frustrations, and they haven'tdone anything about them. So you
know, do you really think thatjust because you, you know, you,
you put their feet to the fire,they're going to actually
change, change their approach?
Probably not. And, you know,it's funny, because I, when I
started this business, you knowrecruiters, McCormick group,
(41:33):
would tell me, you know, 60% ofeverybody, recruiters, I mean,
of candidates who take counteroffers leave within the first
year, you know? And I thought,well, that's just, you know,
they're just puffing. That can'tbe true. Well, you know what?
It's pretty close to that. Yeah,that was a Forbes study within
the last year or two, somewherebetween 40 and 50% so, you know,
(41:55):
it's, it's, you're just notsolving the problem and, and,
you know, you know, you, you, Imean, you know, there are
situations that that it canwork, actually, was. It happened
to me once, when I was back inwhen I my journalism career, I
(42:17):
was leaving because I had, I,you know, I had an issue with
with my superior, and we werejust weren't getting along very
well, and I felt like I justcouldn't do that any longer, and
I had to leave do something,something a little different.
Because, you know, I was, youknow, I was just getting
frustrated. And was between thetime I accepted the job, or
right after I accept the job,she quit. So, so that did change
(42:42):
it a little bit, but that was anexcept, the exception. Rather,
Unknown (42:50):
I think that's the exception, and that's a
different set of circumstances.
And you're right. I mean, also,if you've made that
psychological commitment toleave, you've made it and and
whether you do it then, or, youknow, as this Forbes report
says, you know, maybe it's alittle bit in the distance, but
I will tell you that that timeperiod from the point that you
make the psychological decisionto walk out and go to the next
(43:13):
opportunity and then accept theand then accept the counter that
time until you actuallyultimately leave. And you will
ultimately leave, um, will suck.
It will just suck. That's,
Steve (43:28):
that's the problem, and, and nowadays with, you know,
with background checks. I mean,even though you resign after
the, you know, resign at thebackground checks, but the firms
can try to hold on to you alittle longer than they used to,
yeah, and that's just, it's,it's, it's really, it's a tough,
it's a tough period of time. Andthey, they, they really get to
(43:49):
you, and they try to give youall of the, you know, all the
excuses and all of the thingsthat will change that sort of
thing. So it's really hard. Therecruiter can help you through
that. But I can understand thatthere's a, I mean, totally
understand it where thecandidate thinks, well, the
recruiter wants to protect theirfeet, and that's actually true,
(44:13):
but, but on the other hand, thegood recruiters a look out for
the for the, you know, for thebest interest of their
candidates. I mean, I know notso much in the counteroffer
situation, but there have beensituations, uh, during a
process, where I tell acandidate, you know what, this
opportunity isn't, right,they're telling you too many
(44:34):
things about this opportunity.
That's not what we anticipated,that I think, you know, let's
walk away from this. A goodrecruiter will do that because,
again, they're valuing therelationship, the long term
relationship, with thecandidate, and not looking for
the quick fee.
Unknown (44:53):
All right, Steve, Well, I think we've, we've covered all
the bases and then some on thistopic. Thank you. You. Always,
always great to get the theinsights of somebody with a
level of experience that you'vehad and your team has had in in
doing this kind of work. And Ialways learn a thing or two
through these, thesediscussions. So thank you, and
(45:16):
we'll close until our next untilour next edition. Alright, that
sounds good. All right, talk toyou soon, Steve. All right, take
care. You.
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