February 6, 2025 • 24 mins
While the current environment is chaotic, savvy government attorneys, particularly those with administrative law experience, may find this the perfect time to make a lateral move into law firm practice. In this episode of Steve’s Rules, we take a deep dive into the legal market implications of the new Trump administration—particularly the regulatory shifts, enforcement priorities, and job market changes that will impact law firms and lawyers.
From antitrust enforcement and white-collar crime investigations to the rise of administrative law battles and state-level regulations, we break down how law firms and legal professionals can navigate this evolving landscape.
We also touch on an important new resource: Steve and his team at The McCormick Group are launching a Legal Management Transitions Tracker, a monthly trend report on key Director and C-level hires and promotions in the legal sector. If you are a law firm leader or legal recruiter, this is a must-have resource for staying ahead. Subscribe.
Key Topics Covered in This Episode:
- How the Trump administration’s regulatory approach is reshaping law firm opportunities
- Why antitrust enforcement is shifting—but not disappearing
- The evolving role of white-collar investigations and corporate oversight
- How administrative law is becoming a critical battleground*
- The rise of state-level legal battles amid federal deregulation
- Essential career strategies for government attorneys moving into private practice
- The importance of building a digital presence for job seekers and legal professionals
And make sure you listen long enough the hear some spot on observational humor from Steve wearing his stand up comic hat.
* In our discussion of the impact on administrative law related to "Chevron" we were referring to Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo, 603 U.S. 369 (2024). In this landmark decision, the Court overruled the Chevron doctrine, which had previously mandated judicial deference to federal agencies' interpretations of ambiguous statutes. The Court held that such deference was incompatible with the judiciary's duty to interpret the law.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Murray (00:00):
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules, periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of M Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professionals into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others. Oh,Steve, welcome Murray, another
edition of Steve's rules. And wetypically are focusing in on
(01:14):
broader topics, not necessarilynews of the day, kind of topics,
because that's not what this isabout. However we have seen with
the new administration, with theTrump administration coming in,
we have seen very substantial,very quick changes and
transitions across the federalgovernment in both hiring and
(01:35):
firing, and we are reorganizingpriorities. So we're going to
talk about that. We're going totalk about what the
opportunities will probably befor law firms and in light of
people who are coming out ofgovernment today, and I'll give
you a little hint, it's not alldoom and gloom. So we're going
to try to get everybody centeredand calm down a little bit, if
(01:58):
we can at least take a step backand really look at the situation
as dispassionately as we can.
But before we start that, as wehave in the past, talked about
the kind of intelligence thatthe McCormick group, generally
speaking, with the lead of Steveand some of his partners at
McCormick group, have puttogether over the years,
different trackers watchingwhat's going on in different
(02:19):
markets, and they're about torelease a new report, so we're
going to preview it a little bittoday. Steve is going to share
some nuggets from that. Asalways, Steve's email is in our
show notes. So if you want toget on this list, and I'll tell
you as somebody who has receivedthis list in an earlier
iteration and will be receivingit going forward, especially for
(02:39):
my friends who are directors andC level folk, really critical
Intel for you all. So Steve,welcome back. You're calling
from as we said when we weretalking earlier, you're Florida.
Man, for the next couple ofmonths. So Florida. Man, how are
things going? What's new?
Steve (02:55):
Yeah, I'm in Key West.
Which people in Key West denythat we're part of Florida, but
technically we are. We're rightnear the Gulf of America
planning. What we've got iswe're starting this news feature
called legal managementtransitions. We're going to
summarize each month majorchanges at the C level and
director levels and law firmsaround the US and international
(03:18):
basically was just both newpositions, plus we're going to
feature promotions. People havebeen promoted. You know, at
their current firms.
Interestingly, this month isthat there have been three new
CEOs. Mentioned a couple. It'sone in a major firm. Wanted an
am law 200 but not a Amol 100 asmaller firm, but none of them
(03:41):
were previous coos anywhere elseat another law firm. So let me
just go through them, justquickly. Morrison Forster is
named Brian gross the chiefoperating officer. He was a
Managing Principal and COO ofNorth America for Boston
Consulting. He'll be based inSan Francisco. Burn Forman hired
us their new Chief OperatingOfficer, Charles Marshall, was
(04:04):
the Vice Chancellor and generalcounsel the University of North
Carolina in Chapel Hill. So youknow, academia to and then
coveri Subaru Nile House, whowas a Executive Director of
Global Strategic Growth, and shewas also the executive director
of the litigation practice,really a practice management
(04:26):
director, and she was at ClarkHill in Pittsburgh. She's become
the CEO of Bernstein Shure,which is a smallish firm less
than 100 lawyers, but not tinyin Portland, Maine. So those are
a couple of interestinghighlights. We've got several
new chief marketing officers andseveral new chief talent
(04:46):
officers, so it's a mix ofdifferent people. We're
interested in every discipline,marketing, it, practice,
management, finance, everything.
We're looking forward to this.
We're really excited about it.
And if you're interested ingetting on our. Mailing list,
or, of course, telling us aboutsomething that has happened to
you along those lines, justreach out to me. So
Murray (05:07):
thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And just as a show
note as well, we're also goingto be broadening the field a
little bit on this podcast toalso begin to address with more
regularity, the C level anddirector level recruiting and
kinds of issues like we did acouple of episodes ago with
(05:30):
talking about the road to theCOO suite. But with that, let's
turn our attention now to thefederal government. In US.
Government has millions ofemployees. That's not an
exaggeration. I saw a stat thatsaid that between the US
Government and the Stategovernments across the United
States, there's almost 23million people employed. That's
(05:50):
roughly 6% of the US populationis engaged in the federal or
state government as an employee.
Substantial number people,substantial impact economically,
but also from a substantivelegal standpoint. This is, I
think, and Steve check me onthis. This bodes, I think, for
(06:11):
our law firms out there,especially the ones in DC, but
really ones that have tight tiesto very federal government
oriented practices. So Steve,maybe you could just kick us
across the top of where youthink those peaks are going to
be, and where people who areeither out right now from the
government or thinking to goout, or maybe being asked to
(06:33):
leave, we're hearing a lot aboutthat can be thinking about where
they might find the right fit.
Okay,
Steve (06:41):
so I think I'll start with the overview of where we
think the practices are going.
It's been predicted thisadministration will be friendly
towards M and A, not as manyrestrictions, and so forth, and
so that. We're expecting a verysolid year on the corporate
side. Interestingly, what we'rehearing in antitrust, which
there was some people's concernthat there wouldn't be as much
(07:04):
antitrust enforcement. And thatmay be, but this is from the
early signs, including a casethat was filed last week in this
administration against HewlettPackard, that this will still be
a pretty aggressive area for theTrump administration, they will
obviously select the targetsthat they're focused on, which
(07:25):
are likely going to be differentthan the Biden administration
targets. But I think that therewill be an idea of using the
antitrust laws to further theirgoals, their policy goals. So I
think antitrust does not looklike it's going to be hampered
much at all. Think thatinterestingly, White Collar is
(07:45):
going to change, but so they'llobviously, I think we're going
to see, according to everythingwe're hearing, that there will
be some, a lot of investigationsof administ former
administration officials, butalso some of the businesses that
have been allied with the formeradministration. And so I think
(08:06):
you're going to see a lot ofcongressional investigations.
You're going to see a lot ofjust general investigation, on
the other hand, sort of bigcorporate investigations likely
to drop. Because I just don'tthink you're going to see the
emphasis on corporate fraud andabuse, I think in general, is
not going to be the same as itwas under the Biden
(08:27):
administration. So I thinkyou're going to see a re
shifting of the sort of whitecollar and government
enforcement practices, where Isee a lot of activity, is going
to be an administrative law.
Because right now, they'realready challenging the steps
that this administration hastaken. That's going to continue.
(08:48):
I think this is going to be aboon year for federal employment
law and and beyond that, evenprivate sector employment law,
but particularly federalemployment law, there's going to
be a lawsuit is fired, based onwhat we're seeing when the press
every day. So I think it's goingto be hot. But also on the
administrative law side, there'sjust going to be a lot of
(09:09):
activity challenges to what theadministration is doing, not
just from public interestgroups, but from industry
groups. Because a couple ofpoints I want to make here. One
is a lot of industries haveembraced the federal government
role in regulation because theycan prevent the states from
(09:31):
becoming too aggressive. Andnow, if the federal government
drops out, there may be afeeling among some members of
particular industries that sayswe don't want this because it's
going to hurt us in the long runand so forth. Now obviously this
administration, I think, isgoing to really push for
preemption of state law as well.
So that will be out there, butthat's more litigation, more
(09:52):
litigation, right? So I thinkit's going to be very wild west.
I think in. Regulation in my andI want to make one other point,
which is that the chevron caselast year, which was obviously
seen as a pro business decisionbecause it was harnessing the
federal government's approach toregulation, I think now the
(10:14):
government will be hoist on itsown petard in their efforts to
deregulate will be challengingthe courts. The courts have a
broader oversight based onChevron of whether to defer to
the government agency, and soyou're going to see a different
attitude, particularly if youkeep in mind that at least 50%
(10:35):
of the lower judges wereappointed by either President
Obama or President Biden. Therecord in both the Trump
administration and the earlierturns in this administration is
that the lower courts are notgoing to be that friendly to
this administration and thisapproach that they're taking now
Supreme Court, obviously, weknow what the composition is
(10:58):
there, and you know, there couldvery well be a pro Trump
decision, as has been the case,but very low percentage of cases
actually get to the SupremeCourt. They can't take every
case. So I think you're going tosee a lot of litigation and a
lot of differing opinions. Ithink that it's a boon to
(11:21):
administrative law forpractitioners.
Murray (11:26):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, and I've been waiting for
the shoe to drop on the chevrondecision for a little while. I
thought it was going to operateunder the surface, because
administrative law operatesunder the surface, but it may
really come up now in ways thatI don't think the people who
challenged it actually thoughtit was going to have. And you
(11:46):
raised a really good point aboutthe state agencies. And yes, the
Trump administration is going togo after preemption, to be sure,
but they're not going to be ableto preempt everything, and
that's going to create thedreaded patchwork of
regulations. One of the thingsabout federal regulations is,
you know what they are, fromcoast to coast, right? But
California now is going to say,Okay, we've got different
(12:08):
environmental regulations thefeds are going to have. Illinois
is going to have differentemployment regulations than the
feds are going to have. And it'snot just the attorneys general
challenging preemption, but youknow, we're going to see state
house getting more active. TheDemocrats have been putting a
lot of people into the pipelineat the state houses now, which
they ignored for a few decades.
They're putting more people inthere. So it's going to be an
(12:31):
interesting time and change forlaw and law firms is a good
thing in terms of businessdevelopment and opening up.
People are going to come out ofgovernment who are going to have
opportunities. But there's alsogoing but there's also going to
be people who are at other firmstoday who have that kind of
experience that are going to bevaluable as well. And maybe even
talk a little bit about how thepeople who are thinking about
(12:52):
leaving government, or maybehave been asked to leave, or
have left, what they need to bedoing to make sure that their
qualifications are as apparentas they are, and figuring out
how to package themselves.
Because we've talked about thisin the past, about how people
who are out there need to thinkabout almost productizing
(13:13):
themselves to make themselvesattractive to a firm. So
Steve (13:17):
it was interesting. We have been working with people,
really, since the middle of lastyear, looking people who are
already decided to make achange, no matter which way the
election it went. And then, ofcourse, many more once the
election was decided, and wewere working it, and it was
pretty slow in the pre election,and then the flood gates opened,
with a lot of people looking toleave then. And you combine that
(13:41):
with year end issues for lawfirms, law firms don't have the
bandwidth to cover this even inthe best of circumstances, so
there was a real bottleneck. Andwe were not hearing we were
either getting some no interest,because they had people coming
back and so forth, but we'regetting a lot of just can't even
(14:02):
address this right now. We'vegot too much going on, um, and I
think that that has continued,although I think we're starting
to see a little ease up on it. Ithink that what I believe is
that the administrative law,anybody with an administrative
law expertise, really provenadministrative will be a little
more valuable than we may havethought because of what this
(14:24):
administration is doing, becauseit's opening it up everything.
And it's not just opening it upfor the employees who are
getting terminated. It's reallyopening it up for different
kinds of challenges. So I thinkwe're still seeing a delay.
We're not getting a lot ofactivity now. We're thinking
that it'll be more two to threemonths from now, but one of the
(14:45):
things that we've noticed andsurprised me was the ability of
this administration to getpeople in place in both their
both the agencies and thelawyers the agencies and so
that's. Has been done morequickly than in past
administrations, including thefirst Trump administration. And
(15:05):
so therefore those people aregetting in place, and that means
the law firms are starting tolose some of their folks to this
administration. Administration,yeah, and even though we had
thought that there would not beas many sort of people in law
firms willing to go in theadministration? I think it's
higher than we thought, becauseI think there is, I think they
(15:27):
see opportunity going into thegovernment. And Amen, I think,
because it's going to be astrong year, and because I think
it's going to be focused a loton the administrative side, I
think there may be a rosierpicture than we originally
thought, although I will saythat since I've heard from so
many people coming out who gotthe administrative law
(15:48):
background, it's still going tobe a tight market that might not
be as tight as we
Murray (15:51):
thought. So. So I'm a government attorney. I've spent
the last 10 years of my careerworking in a government
administrative role. I don'thave a book of business. I don't
have a massive network. I am thebiggest expert you can possibly
think of in X, Y or Z area ofadministrative law. What do I
(16:13):
need to be doing now, Steve, tomake sure that those folks who
are out there who are looking tohire these people and hire this
expertise, and what do they needto start doing? How we've talked
about,
Steve (16:26):
yeah, I think it's and we've talked about the business
plan before. So everybody, Ithink that at the very least, if
you're looking to enter theprivate sector and you're just
starting the process, get somethoughts down on paper as to
what your value is, what you'regoing to produce, and does it
fit within what law firms want?
I think that's really important.
(16:48):
I think that it's really thatunderstanding of it. If you can,
if you can focus on a anindustry sector, it's better
than if you're just a, you know,generalist administrative
lawyer, for example, if you'vedone healthcare or you've done
content, the more you can do inareas that is industry focused,
(17:13):
I think, improves yoursituation. And you should focus
your efforts that way, eventhough you might have a very
strong background in general,it's always good to to say I can
become a health care industrylawyer or a social media
industry lawyer, right, or afinancial service right,
(17:37):
something along those lines.
It's really important to thinkindustry, not just think
specialty, yeah.
Murray (17:43):
And I would add, just putting my marketer hat on a
little bit here, I would add,also start to establish a
digital footprint for yourself,to make yourself findable, if
you will. And so that could beas simple as just posting a few
things to LinkedIn every coupleof days. Doesn't need to be a
ton. Maybe write an articleoutlets like law 360 look for
(18:07):
expert commentary all the time.
That's a great journal for thelaw firm industry. It's read by
everybody in the industry. Butdon't sit back and wait. Make
your plan. But also get outthere and make sure that you're
being heard. You get a chance tospeak at a conference. It
doesn't have to be the perfectconference. You probably need
some resume builders. Is themessage that I'm making here,
(18:29):
and personally, I've done it,and it's been great, and I think
that the more you can marketyourself out there, the better.
And the other thing to thinkabout is that what we're
starting to see, and I don'thave an answer for this yet,
folks, but I'm looking at it.
People are beginning to useartificial intelligence like
(18:51):
chat, GPT, Gemini, etc, to doweb searches, rather than
Google, rather than thetraditional search tools that
we've seen, and that's good newsand bad news. The good news is
you get much more interesting,robust results when you do that.
The bad news is, if you're notout there, if you don't have
(19:11):
content out there, you will bealmost invisible to the AI and
but AI can be your friend,because AI can come back and
give a much more fulsome set ofresults than a Google search can
do. That's my two cents on orfour cents on that. Yeah, let
Steve (19:28):
me add just a couple of points to that. One is your
LinkedIn profile is reallyimportant. I see too many that
are just slapped ash. Put ittogether. You don't have the
dates, you don't have all yourjobs, or you have one sentence
descriptors. It's a type ofresume. It may not be like your
resume, but it really shouldfocus in on the key points. So
(19:49):
that's number one, is you shoulddefinitely take the time and do
that. And second, and this iswhat you were talking about,
what I find effective is, and Iwrite a lot, but I don't write
it. Week, close to that. But Ifind that if I see an article, I
like to be able to get twosentences, three sentences about
why I think this article isimportant. That is really
(20:12):
important and you've and the wayLinkedIn works is that the more
you focus your discussion aboutsomebody else and not yourself,
right? The better it is. Ifyou're congratulating a
colleague, or just talking aboutan article that you liked, that
you saw, and giving someobservations. LinkedIn seems to
(20:34):
really value that, rather than alot of self promotion.
Murray (20:38):
Yeah, and, and I know from my friends who are in house
recruiters, that LinkedIn hasbecome probably one of their
most reliable tools. Unlessthey're working with somebody
like Steve and his team, itreally has become one of the
most useful tools. And there's alot of tips out there about how
to make sure that you'veoptimized your LinkedIn bio. You
(21:01):
don't need to hire somebody tohelp you write it, or you're
skilled enough to do ityourself, but there's some
simple things, and Steve's rightabout reposting. If you repost,
don't just repost it into yournetwork. That's not enough. You
have to repost it. You have toput in some comments. That's how
you begin to start moving up thechain with LinkedIn. And it
doesn't have to be expansive. Itcan just be great article on on
(21:25):
this area of law. I've knowpeople who decided they want to
be the experts in LIBOR, andthey just, every week, they they
put out two, two LinkedIn postsrelated to LIBOR, and guess
what? They became LIBOR experts,or at least perceived that way,
right? I think I know thatperson. I think you do. I think
you do know that person, andthat person is on this
(21:46):
subscription list. Just give mea call. So what else? Anything
else before we, uh,
Steve (21:51):
just a couple of points.
One is make sure your resume andyour LinkedIn bio are
consistent, but leave somethingout, because that's more of a
maybe a more of a job like HRkind of tip. But I think it's
true for somebody who is justtrying to raise their profile.
Another thing is use hashtagsand learn what they mean and how
(22:15):
to best utilize I must say, Ineed the primer on that myself,
so at some time, you can help meor refer me to something.
Murray (22:26):
Yep, absolutely, we're working that together. So in
some it's a crazy time, andwe're not going to dive into the
personal politics of this. Itjust is what it is for all of
us. And crazy times can bring upopportunity. One thing I know
for sure is that opportunitynever presents itself at a
convenient time. Don't say it'snot the right time. If that's
(22:49):
your reason for not doingsomething, you'll never do
anything. So hang in there andknow that there is opportunity
for you as a government lawyeror for our recruiters who are
out there be thinking about whatthe opportunities are for you to
bring in the right people toyour firm, bring in a level of
expertise that the clients aregoing to be needing. They may
(23:10):
not have a great big book ofbusiness, but if they can answer
that critical question for aclient, they're worth their
weight in gold. So that's it. Itkind of a heavy session this
time, Steve. So, as we've donein the past, and as people may
or may not know about Steve, hisside hustle is that he's been
for quite a while a stand upcomedian and a working stand up
(23:32):
comedian. And so once in awhile, we like to end on a high
note with a joke from Steve. SoSteve, this goes back to your
Florida man, Thatcher, rightnow, but Steve, that's right,
what do you got? Okay, so as Imentioned earlier, I'm in Key
West Florida, and the other day,I was driving on Roosevelt
Boulevard, which is the maindrag of Key West and I saw a
(23:56):
sign for a place called advancedurgent care. And my immediate
thought was, isn't that a littleredundant urgent care? You've
got an advanced problem whenyou're doing urgent care. And I
don't think too many peopleactually go to a place called
beginners urgent
Steve (24:14):
Well, Steve, always a pleasure. We'll get this trigger
on quickly and anything elsebefore we before we close. No,
just take a look at ourmanagement transitions and
subscribe and send us your news.
So that's about all I can say.
Keep
Murray (24:29):
those cards and letters coming, folks. Okay, thanks.
Bye, bye, bye.
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules, periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of M Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professionals into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others. Oh,Steve, welcome Murray, another
edition of Steve's rules. And wetypically are focusing in on
(01:14):
broader topics, not necessarilynews of the day, kind of topics,
because that's not what this isabout. However we have seen with
the new administration, with theTrump administration coming in,
we have seen very substantial,very quick changes and
transitions across the federalgovernment in both hiring and
(01:35):
firing, and we are reorganizingpriorities. So we're going to
talk about that. We're going totalk about what the
opportunities will probably befor law firms and in light of
people who are coming out ofgovernment today, and I'll give
you a little hint, it's not alldoom and gloom. So we're going
to try to get everybody centeredand calm down a little bit, if
(01:58):
we can at least take a step backand really look at the situation
as dispassionately as we can.
But before we start that, as wehave in the past, talked about
the kind of intelligence thatthe McCormick group, generally
speaking, with the lead of Steveand some of his partners at
McCormick group, have puttogether over the years,
different trackers watchingwhat's going on in different
(02:19):
markets, and they're about torelease a new report, so we're
going to preview it a little bittoday. Steve is going to share
some nuggets from that. Asalways, Steve's email is in our
show notes. So if you want toget on this list, and I'll tell
you as somebody who has receivedthis list in an earlier
iteration and will be receivingit going forward, especially for
(02:39):
my friends who are directors andC level folk, really critical
Intel for you all. So Steve,welcome back. You're calling
from as we said when we weretalking earlier, you're Florida.
Man, for the next couple ofmonths. So Florida. Man, how are
things going? What's new?
Steve (02:55):
Yeah, I'm in Key West.
Which people in Key West denythat we're part of Florida, but
technically we are. We're rightnear the Gulf of America
planning. What we've got iswe're starting this news feature
called legal managementtransitions. We're going to
summarize each month majorchanges at the C level and
director levels and law firmsaround the US and international
(03:18):
basically was just both newpositions, plus we're going to
feature promotions. People havebeen promoted. You know, at
their current firms.
Interestingly, this month isthat there have been three new
CEOs. Mentioned a couple. It'sone in a major firm. Wanted an
am law 200 but not a Amol 100 asmaller firm, but none of them
(03:41):
were previous coos anywhere elseat another law firm. So let me
just go through them, justquickly. Morrison Forster is
named Brian gross the chiefoperating officer. He was a
Managing Principal and COO ofNorth America for Boston
Consulting. He'll be based inSan Francisco. Burn Forman hired
us their new Chief OperatingOfficer, Charles Marshall, was
(04:04):
the Vice Chancellor and generalcounsel the University of North
Carolina in Chapel Hill. So youknow, academia to and then
coveri Subaru Nile House, whowas a Executive Director of
Global Strategic Growth, and shewas also the executive director
of the litigation practice,really a practice management
(04:26):
director, and she was at ClarkHill in Pittsburgh. She's become
the CEO of Bernstein Shure,which is a smallish firm less
than 100 lawyers, but not tinyin Portland, Maine. So those are
a couple of interestinghighlights. We've got several
new chief marketing officers andseveral new chief talent
(04:46):
officers, so it's a mix ofdifferent people. We're
interested in every discipline,marketing, it, practice,
management, finance, everything.
We're looking forward to this.
We're really excited about it.
And if you're interested ingetting on our. Mailing list,
or, of course, telling us aboutsomething that has happened to
you along those lines, justreach out to me. So
Murray (05:07):
thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And just as a show
note as well, we're also goingto be broadening the field a
little bit on this podcast toalso begin to address with more
regularity, the C level anddirector level recruiting and
kinds of issues like we did acouple of episodes ago with
(05:30):
talking about the road to theCOO suite. But with that, let's
turn our attention now to thefederal government. In US.
Government has millions ofemployees. That's not an
exaggeration. I saw a stat thatsaid that between the US
Government and the Stategovernments across the United
States, there's almost 23million people employed. That's
(05:50):
roughly 6% of the US populationis engaged in the federal or
state government as an employee.
Substantial number people,substantial impact economically,
but also from a substantivelegal standpoint. This is, I
think, and Steve check me onthis. This bodes, I think, for
(06:11):
our law firms out there,especially the ones in DC, but
really ones that have tight tiesto very federal government
oriented practices. So Steve,maybe you could just kick us
across the top of where youthink those peaks are going to
be, and where people who areeither out right now from the
government or thinking to goout, or maybe being asked to
(06:33):
leave, we're hearing a lot aboutthat can be thinking about where
they might find the right fit.
Okay,
Steve (06:41):
so I think I'll start with the overview of where we
think the practices are going.
It's been predicted thisadministration will be friendly
towards M and A, not as manyrestrictions, and so forth, and
so that. We're expecting a verysolid year on the corporate
side. Interestingly, what we'rehearing in antitrust, which
there was some people's concernthat there wouldn't be as much
(07:04):
antitrust enforcement. And thatmay be, but this is from the
early signs, including a casethat was filed last week in this
administration against HewlettPackard, that this will still be
a pretty aggressive area for theTrump administration, they will
obviously select the targetsthat they're focused on, which
(07:25):
are likely going to be differentthan the Biden administration
targets. But I think that therewill be an idea of using the
antitrust laws to further theirgoals, their policy goals. So I
think antitrust does not looklike it's going to be hampered
much at all. Think thatinterestingly, White Collar is
(07:45):
going to change, but so they'llobviously, I think we're going
to see, according to everythingwe're hearing, that there will
be some, a lot of investigationsof administ former
administration officials, butalso some of the businesses that
have been allied with the formeradministration. And so I think
(08:06):
you're going to see a lot ofcongressional investigations.
You're going to see a lot ofjust general investigation, on
the other hand, sort of bigcorporate investigations likely
to drop. Because I just don'tthink you're going to see the
emphasis on corporate fraud andabuse, I think in general, is
not going to be the same as itwas under the Biden
(08:27):
administration. So I thinkyou're going to see a re
shifting of the sort of whitecollar and government
enforcement practices, where Isee a lot of activity, is going
to be an administrative law.
Because right now, they'realready challenging the steps
that this administration hastaken. That's going to continue.
(08:48):
I think this is going to be aboon year for federal employment
law and and beyond that, evenprivate sector employment law,
but particularly federalemployment law, there's going to
be a lawsuit is fired, based onwhat we're seeing when the press
every day. So I think it's goingto be hot. But also on the
administrative law side, there'sjust going to be a lot of
(09:09):
activity challenges to what theadministration is doing, not
just from public interestgroups, but from industry
groups. Because a couple ofpoints I want to make here. One
is a lot of industries haveembraced the federal government
role in regulation because theycan prevent the states from
(09:31):
becoming too aggressive. Andnow, if the federal government
drops out, there may be afeeling among some members of
particular industries that sayswe don't want this because it's
going to hurt us in the long runand so forth. Now obviously this
administration, I think, isgoing to really push for
preemption of state law as well.
So that will be out there, butthat's more litigation, more
(09:52):
litigation, right? So I thinkit's going to be very wild west.
I think in. Regulation in my andI want to make one other point,
which is that the chevron caselast year, which was obviously
seen as a pro business decisionbecause it was harnessing the
federal government's approach toregulation, I think now the
(10:14):
government will be hoist on itsown petard in their efforts to
deregulate will be challengingthe courts. The courts have a
broader oversight based onChevron of whether to defer to
the government agency, and soyou're going to see a different
attitude, particularly if youkeep in mind that at least 50%
(10:35):
of the lower judges wereappointed by either President
Obama or President Biden. Therecord in both the Trump
administration and the earlierturns in this administration is
that the lower courts are notgoing to be that friendly to
this administration and thisapproach that they're taking now
Supreme Court, obviously, weknow what the composition is
(10:58):
there, and you know, there couldvery well be a pro Trump
decision, as has been the case,but very low percentage of cases
actually get to the SupremeCourt. They can't take every
case. So I think you're going tosee a lot of litigation and a
lot of differing opinions. Ithink that it's a boon to
(11:21):
administrative law forpractitioners.
Murray (11:26):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, and I've been waiting for
the shoe to drop on the chevrondecision for a little while. I
thought it was going to operateunder the surface, because
administrative law operatesunder the surface, but it may
really come up now in ways thatI don't think the people who
challenged it actually thoughtit was going to have. And you
(11:46):
raised a really good point aboutthe state agencies. And yes, the
Trump administration is going togo after preemption, to be sure,
but they're not going to be ableto preempt everything, and
that's going to create thedreaded patchwork of
regulations. One of the thingsabout federal regulations is,
you know what they are, fromcoast to coast, right? But
California now is going to say,Okay, we've got different
(12:08):
environmental regulations thefeds are going to have. Illinois
is going to have differentemployment regulations than the
feds are going to have. And it'snot just the attorneys general
challenging preemption, but youknow, we're going to see state
house getting more active. TheDemocrats have been putting a
lot of people into the pipelineat the state houses now, which
they ignored for a few decades.
They're putting more people inthere. So it's going to be an
(12:31):
interesting time and change forlaw and law firms is a good
thing in terms of businessdevelopment and opening up.
People are going to come out ofgovernment who are going to have
opportunities. But there's alsogoing but there's also going to
be people who are at other firmstoday who have that kind of
experience that are going to bevaluable as well. And maybe even
talk a little bit about how thepeople who are thinking about
(12:52):
leaving government, or maybehave been asked to leave, or
have left, what they need to bedoing to make sure that their
qualifications are as apparentas they are, and figuring out
how to package themselves.
Because we've talked about thisin the past, about how people
who are out there need to thinkabout almost productizing
(13:13):
themselves to make themselvesattractive to a firm. So
Steve (13:17):
it was interesting. We have been working with people,
really, since the middle of lastyear, looking people who are
already decided to make achange, no matter which way the
election it went. And then, ofcourse, many more once the
election was decided, and wewere working it, and it was
pretty slow in the pre election,and then the flood gates opened,
with a lot of people looking toleave then. And you combine that
(13:41):
with year end issues for lawfirms, law firms don't have the
bandwidth to cover this even inthe best of circumstances, so
there was a real bottleneck. Andwe were not hearing we were
either getting some no interest,because they had people coming
back and so forth, but we'regetting a lot of just can't even
(14:02):
address this right now. We'vegot too much going on, um, and I
think that that has continued,although I think we're starting
to see a little ease up on it. Ithink that what I believe is
that the administrative law,anybody with an administrative
law expertise, really provenadministrative will be a little
more valuable than we may havethought because of what this
(14:24):
administration is doing, becauseit's opening it up everything.
And it's not just opening it upfor the employees who are
getting terminated. It's reallyopening it up for different
kinds of challenges. So I thinkwe're still seeing a delay.
We're not getting a lot ofactivity now. We're thinking
that it'll be more two to threemonths from now, but one of the
(14:45):
things that we've noticed andsurprised me was the ability of
this administration to getpeople in place in both their
both the agencies and thelawyers the agencies and so
that's. Has been done morequickly than in past
administrations, including thefirst Trump administration. And
(15:05):
so therefore those people aregetting in place, and that means
the law firms are starting tolose some of their folks to this
administration. Administration,yeah, and even though we had
thought that there would not beas many sort of people in law
firms willing to go in theadministration? I think it's
higher than we thought, becauseI think there is, I think they
(15:27):
see opportunity going into thegovernment. And Amen, I think,
because it's going to be astrong year, and because I think
it's going to be focused a loton the administrative side, I
think there may be a rosierpicture than we originally
thought, although I will saythat since I've heard from so
many people coming out who gotthe administrative law
(15:48):
background, it's still going tobe a tight market that might not
be as tight as we
Murray (15:51):
thought. So. So I'm a government attorney. I've spent
the last 10 years of my careerworking in a government
administrative role. I don'thave a book of business. I don't
have a massive network. I am thebiggest expert you can possibly
think of in X, Y or Z area ofadministrative law. What do I
(16:13):
need to be doing now, Steve, tomake sure that those folks who
are out there who are looking tohire these people and hire this
expertise, and what do they needto start doing? How we've talked
about,
Steve (16:26):
yeah, I think it's and we've talked about the business
plan before. So everybody, Ithink that at the very least, if
you're looking to enter theprivate sector and you're just
starting the process, get somethoughts down on paper as to
what your value is, what you'regoing to produce, and does it
fit within what law firms want?
I think that's really important.
(16:48):
I think that it's really thatunderstanding of it. If you can,
if you can focus on a anindustry sector, it's better
than if you're just a, you know,generalist administrative
lawyer, for example, if you'vedone healthcare or you've done
content, the more you can do inareas that is industry focused,
(17:13):
I think, improves yoursituation. And you should focus
your efforts that way, eventhough you might have a very
strong background in general,it's always good to to say I can
become a health care industrylawyer or a social media
industry lawyer, right, or afinancial service right,
(17:37):
something along those lines.
It's really important to thinkindustry, not just think
specialty, yeah.
Murray (17:43):
And I would add, just putting my marketer hat on a
little bit here, I would add,also start to establish a
digital footprint for yourself,to make yourself findable, if
you will. And so that could beas simple as just posting a few
things to LinkedIn every coupleof days. Doesn't need to be a
ton. Maybe write an articleoutlets like law 360 look for
(18:07):
expert commentary all the time.
That's a great journal for thelaw firm industry. It's read by
everybody in the industry. Butdon't sit back and wait. Make
your plan. But also get outthere and make sure that you're
being heard. You get a chance tospeak at a conference. It
doesn't have to be the perfectconference. You probably need
some resume builders. Is themessage that I'm making here,
(18:29):
and personally, I've done it,and it's been great, and I think
that the more you can marketyourself out there, the better.
And the other thing to thinkabout is that what we're
starting to see, and I don'thave an answer for this yet,
folks, but I'm looking at it.
People are beginning to useartificial intelligence like
(18:51):
chat, GPT, Gemini, etc, to doweb searches, rather than
Google, rather than thetraditional search tools that
we've seen, and that's good newsand bad news. The good news is
you get much more interesting,robust results when you do that.
The bad news is, if you're notout there, if you don't have
(19:11):
content out there, you will bealmost invisible to the AI and
but AI can be your friend,because AI can come back and
give a much more fulsome set ofresults than a Google search can
do. That's my two cents on orfour cents on that. Yeah, let
Steve (19:28):
me add just a couple of points to that. One is your
LinkedIn profile is reallyimportant. I see too many that
are just slapped ash. Put ittogether. You don't have the
dates, you don't have all yourjobs, or you have one sentence
descriptors. It's a type ofresume. It may not be like your
resume, but it really shouldfocus in on the key points. So
(19:49):
that's number one, is you shoulddefinitely take the time and do
that. And second, and this iswhat you were talking about,
what I find effective is, and Iwrite a lot, but I don't write
it. Week, close to that. But Ifind that if I see an article, I
like to be able to get twosentences, three sentences about
why I think this article isimportant. That is really
(20:12):
important and you've and the wayLinkedIn works is that the more
you focus your discussion aboutsomebody else and not yourself,
right? The better it is. Ifyou're congratulating a
colleague, or just talking aboutan article that you liked, that
you saw, and giving someobservations. LinkedIn seems to
(20:34):
really value that, rather than alot of self promotion.
Murray (20:38):
Yeah, and, and I know from my friends who are in house
recruiters, that LinkedIn hasbecome probably one of their
most reliable tools. Unlessthey're working with somebody
like Steve and his team, itreally has become one of the
most useful tools. And there's alot of tips out there about how
to make sure that you'veoptimized your LinkedIn bio. You
(21:01):
don't need to hire somebody tohelp you write it, or you're
skilled enough to do ityourself, but there's some
simple things, and Steve's rightabout reposting. If you repost,
don't just repost it into yournetwork. That's not enough. You
have to repost it. You have toput in some comments. That's how
you begin to start moving up thechain with LinkedIn. And it
doesn't have to be expansive. Itcan just be great article on on
(21:25):
this area of law. I've knowpeople who decided they want to
be the experts in LIBOR, andthey just, every week, they they
put out two, two LinkedIn postsrelated to LIBOR, and guess
what? They became LIBOR experts,or at least perceived that way,
right? I think I know thatperson. I think you do. I think
you do know that person, andthat person is on this
(21:46):
subscription list. Just give mea call. So what else? Anything
else before we, uh,
Steve (21:51):
just a couple of points.
One is make sure your resume andyour LinkedIn bio are
consistent, but leave somethingout, because that's more of a
maybe a more of a job like HRkind of tip. But I think it's
true for somebody who is justtrying to raise their profile.
Another thing is use hashtagsand learn what they mean and how
(22:15):
to best utilize I must say, Ineed the primer on that myself,
so at some time, you can help meor refer me to something.
Murray (22:26):
Yep, absolutely, we're working that together. So in
some it's a crazy time, andwe're not going to dive into the
personal politics of this. Itjust is what it is for all of
us. And crazy times can bring upopportunity. One thing I know
for sure is that opportunitynever presents itself at a
convenient time. Don't say it'snot the right time. If that's
(22:49):
your reason for not doingsomething, you'll never do
anything. So hang in there andknow that there is opportunity
for you as a government lawyeror for our recruiters who are
out there be thinking about whatthe opportunities are for you to
bring in the right people toyour firm, bring in a level of
expertise that the clients aregoing to be needing. They may
(23:10):
not have a great big book ofbusiness, but if they can answer
that critical question for aclient, they're worth their
weight in gold. So that's it. Itkind of a heavy session this
time, Steve. So, as we've donein the past, and as people may
or may not know about Steve, hisside hustle is that he's been
for quite a while a stand upcomedian and a working stand up
(23:32):
comedian. And so once in awhile, we like to end on a high
note with a joke from Steve. SoSteve, this goes back to your
Florida man, Thatcher, rightnow, but Steve, that's right,
what do you got? Okay, so as Imentioned earlier, I'm in Key
West Florida, and the other day,I was driving on Roosevelt
Boulevard, which is the maindrag of Key West and I saw a
(23:56):
sign for a place called advancedurgent care. And my immediate
thought was, isn't that a littleredundant urgent care? You've
got an advanced problem whenyou're doing urgent care. And I
don't think too many peopleactually go to a place called
beginners urgent
Steve (24:14):
Well, Steve, always a pleasure. We'll get this trigger
on quickly and anything elsebefore we before we close. No,
just take a look at ourmanagement transitions and
subscribe and send us your news.
So that's about all I can say.
Keep
Murray (24:29):
those cards and letters coming, folks. Okay, thanks.
Bye, bye, bye.
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