In this episode Steve Nelson walks the listener through the key considerations for both firms and candidates as they consider the intricacies of recruiting high level government officials from this or any presidential administration. For reasons Steve lays out in detail, now is the right time for firms looking to hire federal officials to jump into the mix. So to, for candidates, now is time to make the move if Andare thinking about making the jump. And for putative candidates, it is not as easy as picking up the phone and making a call to that managing partner you met at a conference. In fact, doing so may be to your detriment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules, periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of Adam Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
(00:32):
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
practices and maybe a few not sobest practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professionals into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
(00:54):
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others.
Today, we're going to look at aspecialized, nuanced and high
stakes form of executiverecruiting like the springtime
(01:14):
cherry blossoms in Washington,DC, the recruiting season for
administration officials lookingto leave government and join
private practice is short andspecific. Steve and his
colleagues at the McCormickgroup have placed dozens of
government attorneys, includingcabinet officials, agency heads
and members of Congress, in lawfirms and other professional
(01:35):
services jobs around the US andabroad. First, hello, Steve. And
did I get all that? Right?
Steve (01:45):
Yes, Murray, thanks a lot, and it's great to be with
with you here.
Unknown (01:50):
So Steve McCormick group has a lot of different
practices, but this is one ofthe practices this, this, you
know, recruiting for, for from,from government into law firms
and other other professionalservices organizations. That is,
is kind of a more, I would sayit's more of a niche, more more
than a niche, rather for, forthe recruiting world, and it's
(02:15):
especially relevant because ofyour location, of your your
firm, which is, which is in theGreater Washington, DC metro
area. So we should talk a littlebit. Why don't we start out
talking a little bit about kindof the whys and hows of hiring a
partner level talent from agovernment we are in, you know,
(02:39):
we're getting into, we're in themiddle of that season right now.
There's probably a lot ofdiscussions going on. And so
why, why would a firm considerdoing this, and what benefit or
challenge will bring to thefirm? Right? So
Steve (02:57):
it is the season you're you're absolutely right. This is
the third year of a presidentialterm, and most of the top
officials, if they're going tomove during the administration,
they're going to move this year.
They won't. They can't waituntil next year, because at that
point there'll be a lot ofpressure for them to stay for
for law firms, it's for manypractices. It's really
(03:22):
critically important that theyhave the talent from government
in their firms, because thestrategy of dealing with
particular government agencies,the know how, the inside
information about how things getdone in government, and the
kinds of arguments that makesense and the kinds of arguments
that don't make sense, that'sthat's critical, and that does
(03:44):
change from administration toadministration and from year to
year. So having the most up todate talent coming from some of
the key federal agencies iscritical.
Unknown (03:58):
So let me, let me tail back to something here. That was
an interesting comment you madeabout bringing in somebody who
understands the currentadministration. So when you have
an administ, when you anticipateyou're gonna have an
administration that will havetwo terms that particular that
particular recruiting decisionis one that can be especially
(04:20):
valuable for the for the firms,because they're they're going to
get insights not only into theend of the this, this particular
term, but into the next term.
And that's oftentimes when youknow a lot of stuff is
Steve (04:33):
happening, right? And let me just point out that even if
there is a shift inadministration, many of these
individuals are in theindependent agencies, Securities
Exchange Commission, FederalTrade Commission and the like.
And those policies don't shiftas much because they they have
been built to be more apoliticalthan, let's say, you know, the
(04:58):
Treasury Department. Or someother agency. So the know how at
the SEC, it doesn't change thatmuch from administration to
administration. Got
Unknown (05:09):
it. Got it. So when should a firm be focused on
hiring top federal officials?
What's the kind of a What's thetell that you are from that
needs this? Right?
Steve (05:21):
I think, as I said earlier, now is the time. Now is
the time to be focused onbringing in the top talent from
from the agencies. Now there'llbe certain people, whether
they're political appointees orwhether they're just top level
career people that will wait tothe end of administration. But
if you're looking to recruitsomebody out of an
(05:42):
administration now is the reallygood time to bring those people
in, because again, as Iindicated earlier, you get to a
point where it's really hard todisengage yourself from the
political scene.
Unknown (05:57):
So let's touch a little bit on the ethical
considerations for hiringsomebody out of the federal
government. I know that thereare, there are a number of them.
I expect that many firms have anunderstanding of some of it, but
they probably don't understandthe impact of all of it. So
let's talk about that a littlebit. Yeah.
Steve (06:13):
I mean, so generally, there is a one or a two year ban
on appearing before an agency,if you're a high level official
from any of the agencies, andthat's and that is honored. I
mean, this is not something toplay around with. On the other
hand, it does not prevent youfrom having, having advising
(06:36):
your clients about how aparticular agency might handle a
particular situation, so there'sstill a lot of value that those
officials can provide. One otherethical consideration I do want
to mention is that really,really relates to the recruiting
is that all the agencies haverecusal rules about talking to
(07:00):
prospective employers, andtherefore a lawyer will have to
recuse themselves once, once itbecomes active with a particular
firm, and that really goes toyour strategy, if you're a
government official, as to howyou want to go about looking at
opportunities
Unknown (07:19):
And and is, is engaging in a discussion with a
recruiter? Does that trigger therecusal requirement, or is it,
is it when you're actually lookentertaining a possible, a
possible offer, not even anoffer?
Steve (07:34):
Yes. I mean talking to recruiter about potential
opportunities does not indicateany kind of recusal situation.
You're free to talk. You're freeto talk about the firms. And you
know, recruiters shouldobviously tell you about certain
firms, and you know what theyprovide. So all that is is open.
(07:56):
The rules, as as we understandthem, is once a resume gets
transferred to a firm, or thereis some level of clear interest
expressed by both the firm andthe candidate, that triggers
refusal. And that's importantbecause if, if, if you're a
(08:17):
government official saying youdecide to do this by yourself.
Which many people do? You haveto be really careful about which
firms you want to talk to,because once you start talking,
there's a recusal issue. And ifyou're the kind of person who's
going to be in demand from anumber of firms, you want to
limit those number of firms, theones you're really interested
in. Hard to do if you're notusing somebody like us as a
(08:40):
group,
Unknown (08:42):
that's, that's really, that's really interesting. So
there's the executive recruiterskind of form a buffer, then
between, between each for this,and it's not, there's no,
there's nothing untoward aboutand it's just, it's just a way
to do, a way to do business. So,so that people can entertain,
you know, multiple multipleideas, you know, at the same
(09:04):
time. And I think it's always,you know, I at my background, as
you know, is in marketing andbusiness development at large
law firms. And so I've had quitea bit of experience working with
lawyers coming out ofgovernment, mostly federal
government, but some stateagencies as well. And I have to
(09:26):
be honest, Steve The the thesuccess of some of these, these,
these folks, is variable. And soI wonder if you can talk a
little bit as you see, you know,firms and candidates. You know,
how do you know? You never canknow for sure, but how do you
(09:47):
weigh out kind of where thegreater, what kind of an
environment needs to beavailable to a to a candidate or
then, you know, partner to helpthem become successful,
Steve (09:59):
right? So I really think there are, like two important
criteria that a firm ought to beconsidering when they're looking
at a lateral coming out ofgovernment. One is the exact
role that that official plays inpolicy and decision making, and
how critical is it to thebusiness community? Because
there could be people who arereally terrific lawyers have a
(10:22):
great pedigree, but maybethey're at an agency that's not,
doesn't, not have a tremendousimpact on on business. Example,
would be, in many cases, notalways, the State Department,
great lawyers, but very few ofthem are going to have an impact
on, on, on, on the state ofbusiness. The other, the other
(10:43):
thing that I would say that'simportant is somebody coming out
of government has to have thedesire to succeed in the private
sector, and the private lawpractice in particular, we're
looking at those kinds ofopportunities. And so somebody
has got to understand that it'sa business and that you as a
lawyer, you're expected toeither bring in the business
(11:05):
directly, or at least be part ofthe team that brings in
business. And if you're not, ifthat's not what drives you, if
you're driven by public policy,and, you know, changing the
world and making it a betterplace, you're probably not the
right kind of person for a for alaw firm, it's you've got to
(11:26):
what have that hunger to do it.
And sometimes what we run intoare people who the first thing
they say is, I really would liketo go in house, you know, into a
corporation, where I won't haveto do all those things. And then
if I that doesn't work, thenI'll look at a law firm. To me,
that's a tip that this is aperson probably is going to have
a difficult time making it at aprivate law firm. Yeah,
Unknown (11:49):
yeah. I think, I think that's a that's a great insight.
Um, how long I know this? Isthis? This? Again, is another
one of these. You know, look inyour crystal ball. Kind of
questions, but, but how longwill it take for government,
government official, to reallydevelop a practice? What's the
I've you know, my view is it'slonger than the firms think. But
(12:10):
what do you think? What do youknow? Yeah,
Steve (12:12):
I totally agree. I think firms, right now, firms have
finally decided that, or figuredout, that person's not going to
develop it in the first year. Ithink they've now gotten to the
point where they're thinking twoyears. But even that is is a
difficult task. I think, for fora lateral to be completely fully
sort of operational. There areexceptions, of course, but I
(12:33):
think it's got, you got to belooking at this as a three year
point for that person to befully operating. My
Unknown (12:39):
experience is absolutely unless that person's
coming in, sorry for jumping,unless that person is coming in,
sort of pre wired with, with,maybe, you know, a lot of a lot
of different ways to bring inbusiness. And some are, you
know, it's just how they are.
It's, it's got to be a threeyear commitment, but, but it,
you know, by year two you'regoing, you're going to know if
(12:59):
they're getting some sometraction. And that's, I think,
what you have to see in yeartwo, at least from my
perspective, year two iscritical in so far as you know,
is this person meshing with firmculture? Are they getting out
there with their with theirpartners? Are they adding value
to client conversations? Youknow, if that's if that's
happening and it's consistent,and the partners are partners
(13:22):
are seeking out this person tobring with them. That the next
step is going to be, you know,that person bringing in their
own business. But that will comeif they're, if they're able to
to manage themselves within thefirm.
Steve (13:37):
Yeah. And even in year one, the firm should have,
should have some signals as towhether this is going to work.
You know, is that person goingout and meeting people? Are they
involved in client pitches? Arethey writing? Are they
participating in firm events orblogs or anything else? All of
that should be pretty muchfigured out the first year. Now,
(14:01):
I will also say, though there'sa responsibility at the firm to
really involve them, and that'snot easy, because, you know,
firms are are not great atgetting these people integrated,
because partner, you know, thepartners that they're dependent
on, are often, they're out, youknow, traveling, or they're
working on client matters, and,you know, helping a new lawyer,
you know, integrating the firm,it's not their top priority.
(14:25):
First. Have to really make it ahigher priority.
Unknown (14:28):
And I'll offer this to any of the candidates that are
that are listening out there andthinking that they want to move
in this direction. You know, asas a long time marketing and
business developmentprofessional. I've got 20 years
under my belt that was workingas a CMO at AMLO, 100 firms for
the last 13 years. If you are acandidate coming in and you
(14:53):
don't have a book like a like alike a government candidate,
make sure you make a beeline.
Into that marketing and businessdevelopment team and start to
see what they can do to help youbuild out you're, you're, you'll
have a little bit of notorietyin a positive sense when you
when you first come in, andthere may be some really great
opportunities to promote you.
(15:16):
Also, I think you know to theextent it's possible to do this,
and I have done it, ask to meetthe people who are running the
marketing and BD function withinthe practice that you're going
to be in, and make sure theyunderstand who you are and what
you're all about, why you'vebeen brought into the firm.
Because a lot of times, youknow, we wind up with a with a
(15:41):
lateral coming in and, you know,it's, it's, you know, the first
time we meet them, first time wetalk to them, is, is the second
day they're on the job. And itdoesn't have to be that way. It
shouldn't be that way,
Steve (15:57):
right? I agree that lateral should be investigating
the each firm they're talkingto, what their approach is for
marketing, BD, and part of thatis meeting, you know, at the top
people involved, to get theperspective of how they would
actually help them develop,develop their business.
Unknown (16:19):
Well, Steve, the clock on the wall says we're, we're
just about at time. And we'vebeen talking about some pretty
heavy subjects here. We'retalking about careers, we're
talking about about money, we'retalking about big old law firms
and government practice. Andit's, it's a lot of big
decisions, and, and, and there,none of them are light
decisions. So maybe you can takeus out with something a little
(16:43):
bit lighter. Something I knowabout Steve that a lot of people
may not know or may not becommon knowledge, is that Steve
in his his Steve side hustle isas a stand up comedian. And so
Steve, maybe you can, you can,you can close us out with a
humorous anecdote or even ajoke. I like jokes.
Steve (17:05):
Okay, yeah, no, we've learned a lot in the in the
business of recruiting. And thisisn't just for government
lawyers. This is really for all,all candidates of all sorts. Is
there's a secret language ofcandidates, and they will tell
you something, which soundsreally good, but if you
(17:26):
investigated, it might meansomething else. And my favorite
thing that I hear fromcandidates, particularly those
who've left a job, and you know,it's yeah, maybe not of their
own volition. A lot of timesthey'll say, Well, it really was
a mutual decision, you know, forme to leave, and I interpret
that as an armed guard had toescort you out.
Unknown (17:49):
You left in, in ankle shackles, right? Exactly. So
well, that's, that's, that'sgood to know. It's kind of, kind
of a, kind of a interestingperspective, because candidates
do try to spin things. And Iwill promise you, when you're
working with somebody likeSteve, who has as many years
under his belt as he has,there's very little spin that's
(18:10):
going to get spun around. SteveNelson, well, Steve, thank you.
This has been a greatconversation. I look forward to
more. We've got a couple moreplans. So please subscribe. Stay
tuned, Steve, anything you wantto you want to say, before we
Steve (18:24):
I just want to, I want to say, thank you. I'm really
excited to be doing this series.
I think I'm hoping that we canhelp both the law firms and the
candidates get to a betterplace. Absolutely.
Unknown (18:36):
All right, thanks, Steve, and we'll talk soon.
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules, periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of Adam Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
(00:32):
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
practices and maybe a few not sobest practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professionals into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
(00:54):
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others.
Today, we're going to look at aspecialized, nuanced and high
stakes form of executiverecruiting like the springtime
(01:14):
cherry blossoms in Washington,DC, the recruiting season for
administration officials lookingto leave government and join
private practice is short andspecific. Steve and his
colleagues at the McCormickgroup have placed dozens of
government attorneys, includingcabinet officials, agency heads
and members of Congress, in lawfirms and other professional
(01:35):
services jobs around the US andabroad. First, hello, Steve. And
did I get all that? Right?
Steve (01:45):
Yes, Murray, thanks a lot, and it's great to be with
with you here.
Unknown (01:50):
So Steve McCormick group has a lot of different
practices, but this is one ofthe practices this, this, you
know, recruiting for, for from,from government into law firms
and other other professionalservices organizations. That is,
is kind of a more, I would sayit's more of a niche, more more
than a niche, rather for, forthe recruiting world, and it's
(02:15):
especially relevant because ofyour location, of your your
firm, which is, which is in theGreater Washington, DC metro
area. So we should talk a littlebit. Why don't we start out
talking a little bit about kindof the whys and hows of hiring a
partner level talent from agovernment we are in, you know,
(02:39):
we're getting into, we're in themiddle of that season right now.
There's probably a lot ofdiscussions going on. And so
why, why would a firm considerdoing this, and what benefit or
challenge will bring to thefirm? Right? So
Steve (02:57):
it is the season you're you're absolutely right. This is
the third year of a presidentialterm, and most of the top
officials, if they're going tomove during the administration,
they're going to move this year.
They won't. They can't waituntil next year, because at that
point there'll be a lot ofpressure for them to stay for
for law firms, it's for manypractices. It's really
(03:22):
critically important that theyhave the talent from government
in their firms, because thestrategy of dealing with
particular government agencies,the know how, the inside
information about how things getdone in government, and the
kinds of arguments that makesense and the kinds of arguments
that don't make sense, that'sthat's critical, and that does
(03:44):
change from administration toadministration and from year to
year. So having the most up todate talent coming from some of
the key federal agencies iscritical.
Unknown (03:58):
So let me, let me tail back to something here. That was
an interesting comment you madeabout bringing in somebody who
understands the currentadministration. So when you have
an administ, when you anticipateyou're gonna have an
administration that will havetwo terms that particular that
particular recruiting decisionis one that can be especially
(04:20):
valuable for the for the firms,because they're they're going to
get insights not only into theend of the this, this particular
term, but into the next term.
And that's oftentimes when youknow a lot of stuff is
Steve (04:33):
happening, right? And let me just point out that even if
there is a shift inadministration, many of these
individuals are in theindependent agencies, Securities
Exchange Commission, FederalTrade Commission and the like.
And those policies don't shiftas much because they they have
been built to be more apoliticalthan, let's say, you know, the
(04:58):
Treasury Department. Or someother agency. So the know how at
the SEC, it doesn't change thatmuch from administration to
administration. Got
Unknown (05:09):
it. Got it. So when should a firm be focused on
hiring top federal officials?
What's the kind of a What's thetell that you are from that
needs this? Right?
Steve (05:21):
I think, as I said earlier, now is the time. Now is
the time to be focused onbringing in the top talent from
from the agencies. Now there'llbe certain people, whether
they're political appointees orwhether they're just top level
career people that will wait tothe end of administration. But
if you're looking to recruitsomebody out of an
(05:42):
administration now is the reallygood time to bring those people
in, because again, as Iindicated earlier, you get to a
point where it's really hard todisengage yourself from the
political scene.
Unknown (05:57):
So let's touch a little bit on the ethical
considerations for hiringsomebody out of the federal
government. I know that thereare, there are a number of them.
I expect that many firms have anunderstanding of some of it, but
they probably don't understandthe impact of all of it. So
let's talk about that a littlebit. Yeah.
Steve (06:13):
I mean, so generally, there is a one or a two year ban
on appearing before an agency,if you're a high level official
from any of the agencies, andthat's and that is honored. I
mean, this is not something toplay around with. On the other
hand, it does not prevent youfrom having, having advising
(06:36):
your clients about how aparticular agency might handle a
particular situation, so there'sstill a lot of value that those
officials can provide. One otherethical consideration I do want
to mention is that really,really relates to the recruiting
is that all the agencies haverecusal rules about talking to
(07:00):
prospective employers, andtherefore a lawyer will have to
recuse themselves once, once itbecomes active with a particular
firm, and that really goes toyour strategy, if you're a
government official, as to howyou want to go about looking at
opportunities
Unknown (07:19):
And and is, is engaging in a discussion with a
recruiter? Does that trigger therecusal requirement, or is it,
is it when you're actually lookentertaining a possible, a
possible offer, not even anoffer?
Steve (07:34):
Yes. I mean talking to recruiter about potential
opportunities does not indicateany kind of recusal situation.
You're free to talk. You're freeto talk about the firms. And you
know, recruiters shouldobviously tell you about certain
firms, and you know what theyprovide. So all that is is open.
(07:56):
The rules, as as we understandthem, is once a resume gets
transferred to a firm, or thereis some level of clear interest
expressed by both the firm andthe candidate, that triggers
refusal. And that's importantbecause if, if, if you're a
(08:17):
government official saying youdecide to do this by yourself.
Which many people do? You haveto be really careful about which
firms you want to talk to,because once you start talking,
there's a recusal issue. And ifyou're the kind of person who's
going to be in demand from anumber of firms, you want to
limit those number of firms, theones you're really interested
in. Hard to do if you're notusing somebody like us as a
(08:40):
group,
Unknown (08:42):
that's, that's really, that's really interesting. So
there's the executive recruiterskind of form a buffer, then
between, between each for this,and it's not, there's no,
there's nothing untoward aboutand it's just, it's just a way
to do, a way to do business. So,so that people can entertain,
you know, multiple multipleideas, you know, at the same
(09:04):
time. And I think it's always,you know, I at my background, as
you know, is in marketing andbusiness development at large
law firms. And so I've had quitea bit of experience working with
lawyers coming out ofgovernment, mostly federal
government, but some stateagencies as well. And I have to
(09:26):
be honest, Steve The the thesuccess of some of these, these,
these folks, is variable. And soI wonder if you can talk a
little bit as you see, you know,firms and candidates. You know,
how do you know? You never canknow for sure, but how do you
(09:47):
weigh out kind of where thegreater, what kind of an
environment needs to beavailable to a to a candidate or
then, you know, partner to helpthem become successful,
Steve (09:59):
right? So I really think there are, like two important
criteria that a firm ought to beconsidering when they're looking
at a lateral coming out ofgovernment. One is the exact
role that that official plays inpolicy and decision making, and
how critical is it to thebusiness community? Because
there could be people who arereally terrific lawyers have a
(10:22):
great pedigree, but maybethey're at an agency that's not,
doesn't, not have a tremendousimpact on on business. Example,
would be, in many cases, notalways, the State Department,
great lawyers, but very few ofthem are going to have an impact
on, on, on, on the state ofbusiness. The other, the other
(10:43):
thing that I would say that'simportant is somebody coming out
of government has to have thedesire to succeed in the private
sector, and the private lawpractice in particular, we're
looking at those kinds ofopportunities. And so somebody
has got to understand that it'sa business and that you as a
lawyer, you're expected toeither bring in the business
(11:05):
directly, or at least be part ofthe team that brings in
business. And if you're not, ifthat's not what drives you, if
you're driven by public policy,and, you know, changing the
world and making it a betterplace, you're probably not the
right kind of person for a for alaw firm, it's you've got to
(11:26):
what have that hunger to do it.
And sometimes what we run intoare people who the first thing
they say is, I really would liketo go in house, you know, into a
corporation, where I won't haveto do all those things. And then
if I that doesn't work, thenI'll look at a law firm. To me,
that's a tip that this is aperson probably is going to have
a difficult time making it at aprivate law firm. Yeah,
Unknown (11:49):
yeah. I think, I think that's a that's a great insight.
Um, how long I know this? Isthis? This? Again, is another
one of these. You know, look inyour crystal ball. Kind of
questions, but, but how longwill it take for government,
government official, to reallydevelop a practice? What's the
I've you know, my view is it'slonger than the firms think. But
(12:10):
what do you think? What do youknow? Yeah,
Steve (12:12):
I totally agree. I think firms, right now, firms have
finally decided that, or figuredout, that person's not going to
develop it in the first year. Ithink they've now gotten to the
point where they're thinking twoyears. But even that is is a
difficult task. I think, for fora lateral to be completely fully
sort of operational. There areexceptions, of course, but I
(12:33):
think it's got, you got to belooking at this as a three year
point for that person to befully operating. My
Unknown (12:39):
experience is absolutely unless that person's
coming in, sorry for jumping,unless that person is coming in,
sort of pre wired with, with,maybe, you know, a lot of a lot
of different ways to bring inbusiness. And some are, you
know, it's just how they are.
It's, it's got to be a threeyear commitment, but, but it,
you know, by year two you'regoing, you're going to know if
(12:59):
they're getting some sometraction. And that's, I think,
what you have to see in yeartwo, at least from my
perspective, year two iscritical in so far as you know,
is this person meshing with firmculture? Are they getting out
there with their with theirpartners? Are they adding value
to client conversations? Youknow, if that's if that's
happening and it's consistent,and the partners are partners
(13:22):
are seeking out this person tobring with them. That the next
step is going to be, you know,that person bringing in their
own business. But that will comeif they're, if they're able to
to manage themselves within thefirm.
Steve (13:37):
Yeah. And even in year one, the firm should have,
should have some signals as towhether this is going to work.
You know, is that person goingout and meeting people? Are they
involved in client pitches? Arethey writing? Are they
participating in firm events orblogs or anything else? All of
that should be pretty muchfigured out the first year. Now,
(14:01):
I will also say, though there'sa responsibility at the firm to
really involve them, and that'snot easy, because, you know,
firms are are not great atgetting these people integrated,
because partner, you know, thepartners that they're dependent
on, are often, they're out, youknow, traveling, or they're
working on client matters, and,you know, helping a new lawyer,
you know, integrating the firm,it's not their top priority.
(14:25):
First. Have to really make it ahigher priority.
Unknown (14:28):
And I'll offer this to any of the candidates that are
that are listening out there andthinking that they want to move
in this direction. You know, asas a long time marketing and
business developmentprofessional. I've got 20 years
under my belt that was workingas a CMO at AMLO, 100 firms for
the last 13 years. If you are acandidate coming in and you
(14:53):
don't have a book like a like alike a government candidate,
make sure you make a beeline.
Into that marketing and businessdevelopment team and start to
see what they can do to help youbuild out you're, you're, you'll
have a little bit of notorietyin a positive sense when you
when you first come in, andthere may be some really great
opportunities to promote you.
(15:16):
Also, I think you know to theextent it's possible to do this,
and I have done it, ask to meetthe people who are running the
marketing and BD function withinthe practice that you're going
to be in, and make sure theyunderstand who you are and what
you're all about, why you'vebeen brought into the firm.
Because a lot of times, youknow, we wind up with a with a
(15:41):
lateral coming in and, you know,it's, it's, you know, the first
time we meet them, first time wetalk to them, is, is the second
day they're on the job. And itdoesn't have to be that way. It
shouldn't be that way,
Steve (15:57):
right? I agree that lateral should be investigating
the each firm they're talkingto, what their approach is for
marketing, BD, and part of thatis meeting, you know, at the top
people involved, to get theperspective of how they would
actually help them develop,develop their business.
Unknown (16:19):
Well, Steve, the clock on the wall says we're, we're
just about at time. And we'vebeen talking about some pretty
heavy subjects here. We'retalking about careers, we're
talking about about money, we'retalking about big old law firms
and government practice. Andit's, it's a lot of big
decisions, and, and, and there,none of them are light
decisions. So maybe you can takeus out with something a little
(16:43):
bit lighter. Something I knowabout Steve that a lot of people
may not know or may not becommon knowledge, is that Steve
in his his Steve side hustle isas a stand up comedian. And so
Steve, maybe you can, you can,you can close us out with a
humorous anecdote or even ajoke. I like jokes.
Steve (17:05):
Okay, yeah, no, we've learned a lot in the in the
business of recruiting. And thisisn't just for government
lawyers. This is really for all,all candidates of all sorts. Is
there's a secret language ofcandidates, and they will tell
you something, which soundsreally good, but if you
(17:26):
investigated, it might meansomething else. And my favorite
thing that I hear fromcandidates, particularly those
who've left a job, and you know,it's yeah, maybe not of their
own volition. A lot of timesthey'll say, Well, it really was
a mutual decision, you know, forme to leave, and I interpret
that as an armed guard had toescort you out.
Unknown (17:49):
You left in, in ankle shackles, right? Exactly. So
well, that's, that's, that'sgood to know. It's kind of, kind
of a, kind of a interestingperspective, because candidates
do try to spin things. And Iwill promise you, when you're
working with somebody likeSteve, who has as many years
under his belt as he has,there's very little spin that's
(18:10):
going to get spun around. SteveNelson, well, Steve, thank you.
This has been a greatconversation. I look forward to
more. We've got a couple moreplans. So please subscribe. Stay
tuned, Steve, anything you wantto you want to say, before we
Steve (18:24):
I just want to, I want to say, thank you. I'm really
excited to be doing this series.
I think I'm hoping that we canhelp both the law firms and the
candidates get to a betterplace. Absolutely.
Unknown (18:36):
All right, thanks, Steve, and we'll talk soon.
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