For the second episode of Steve’s Rules, we dig into how a firm can make sure it is doing everything it can to attract the best and most appropriate lateral candidates. Hint: talk to your marketing department. This is a key episode for anyone involved in the day-to-day lateral recruiting efforts including Managing Partners, Directors of Legal Recruiting, and practice group heads. Steve also tells you what not to put in your lateral recruiting materials. And we open with a brief overview of the current lateral recruiting landscape. The big news on this front is more lateral activity is happening around groups and practices moving to new firms. Find out why Steve calls this the “gold standard.” To keep up with the latest news on the recruiting front please ask Steve to join his mailing list snelson@tmg-dc.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules, periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of Adam Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professional into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others. Well,welcome back. Hi, Steve, how are
you today? Good. How are youMurray, I'm great. I'm
especially great because it'sthe first day of summer. So here
(01:15):
in Texas, it's over 100 degreesalready. So
Steve (01:18):
Well, you wouldn't know it's summer here, it's like 65
degrees and raining. So Yikes,it's been, it's actually been a
very cool spring. So which I am,I'm fine with. You're
Unknown (01:28):
probably fine with, of course, as am I. So before we
dive into today's topic, whichis really kind of the six things
you as a firm need to be doingto prepare yourself for lateral
recruiting. Maybe seven. We'llsee where we go with the
conversation. I did see today,Steve, that the your DC lateral
(01:50):
market report for May is out.
And these are, these are, youknow, must reads for people who
are in the market looking forlateral recruits. So Steve, if
you wanted to just give us thetop line highlights, maybe a
trend or two that you're seeingcoming out of these numbers. And
then if people want tosubscribe, how they can how they
(02:11):
can subscribe.
Steve (02:13):
Okay, so may was a was a pretty busy month for the
lateral scene in Washington. Andoverall for the this year, the
number of laterals is upsomewhat, not not significantly,
but maybe 5% up from from lastyear. The interesting thing that
(02:35):
happened in May, and is actuallyreflective of what's going on
throughout the year, is thatthere were two large group moves
that really keyed the growth inMay. And we're seeing a lot of
large group moves, and those aredifferent varieties. Ones are
mergers. Been a fair number ofmergers. There was not a merger
(02:55):
last month, but there have beena lot of mergers dissolutions,
where large groups of lawyerstend to go to one firm and then
spin offs. And there was a spinoff last month, and there was
also a dissolution that led to15 lawyers going to another
firm. So I think that's thetrend that's going on. We're
talking we're seeing more groupmoves, more large group moves
(03:18):
many times a whole firm or alarge segment of a firm.
Unknown (03:24):
Well, I know that when I've been involved in lateral
recruiting, the highest level ofsuccess, frankly, that we saw of
laterals, when laterals cameover in a group, three, four
laterals at a time, it justseemed that they were able to
get going faster. And had a sortof, had a built in, some built
(03:47):
in capabilities. So I'm notsurprised to see that that's on,
on the upswing,
Steve (03:52):
right? And that's the gold standard, is to try to get
groups, two partners, threepartners, bunch of associates,
etc. That's the gold standard.
Doesn't always happen, butthat's what we do. One other
thing I just want to note forour listeners. If you're
interested in subscribing to ourreports, we do one for DC, we do
one for Texas, just reach out tome at the McCormick group, and
(04:14):
I'll put you on the list
Unknown (04:20):
super and maybe at some later date, we can talk about
what's going on in Texas. That'sa giant jurisdiction. I'm here.
I'm in the middle of the of thecraziness that's been going on
for the past few years. So soI'll be I'll be interested in
having that discussion. Well,today, Steve, we're teeing up a
discussion about, really, whatfirms need to be doing to
(04:42):
prepare themselves for reallyengaging in smart, strategic,
lateral recruiting. And I knowthere's about six or seven
different areas that you and Ihave talked about, that you've
seen, and this is born outthrough. Lots of experience that
you've had in watching, franklyfailures, frankly weak
(05:05):
performance, and sometimesreally strong performance. And I
know we like lean into thepositive. So let's talk. Let's
start a little bit. So I thinkone of the things that we talked
about was focusing on thefocusing on why this is, this is
sales stuff here. Why the thelateral candidate may want to
(05:27):
join your firm and talk a littlebit about that, that's that's
somewhat different than than howthe firms usually approach it.
So tell me a little bit moreabout
Steve (05:34):
that. Yeah, no, I think you there are really two
different aspects of this. Oneis the practice, whatever
practice you're looking torecruit in, you have to put your
best for foot forward as to thenature of your practice, the
advantage of your practice,where you stand, what's in it
for for a recruit to join apractice, sometimes it's it's a
(05:57):
succession issue. You've gotpartner who's about to retire.
You bring in somebody who cantake advantage of those
relationships in time. But theremay be different, different,
different stories that areinvolved. The second is the firm
itself, and I think that's whereit's tougher for firms to really
get a grasp on it in terms ofwhat is, what is unique about
(06:18):
your firm? We we just hear thesame things over and over again.
We're collegial, we'recollaborative, we're
entrepreneurial. Well, that justdoesn't cut it. It's got to be
much more granular, much morespecific about what is the DNA
in your firm? Yeah,
Unknown (06:35):
and I that those that, those those three, those three
big words, you know, collegial,and all the rest of it, those
seem to be ingrained in the inthe neural synapses of law
firms. They can't breakthemselves away from, from
saying that and and maybe, youknow this is actually a good to
pivot into the other topic thatwe talked about, which is
(06:57):
working with the marketingdepartments before the for the
firm is, is hitting the lateralmarket in a in a big way. Can
you talk about why that would bein, in how marketing departments
themselves, marketersthemselves, can add value to the
process? Because, frankly, Idon't think a lot do.
Steve (07:18):
Yeah, no, we often see a little bit of a of a barrier
between the recruiting team andthe marketing team. We're not
seeing them interact that muchin terms of our role in helping
a firm really put together thecase for for laterals and your
marketing team. I mean, that's,that's what they do. They are
(07:43):
focused on communications thatreally distinguish your firm
from others, when when you'regoing after business, when going
after clients. So the same thingkind of applies. It's a little
different view of it. Recruitsare a little different in terms
of how you do it, but, but themarketing department can really
(08:05):
get you a lot of ammunition thatyou need, that that that firms
often overlook.
Unknown (08:10):
Yeah, and I will tell you that from my perspective as
a CMO at a number of differentAMLO 100 firms, where I worked
directly with the recruitingteams. And this is maybe more of
a message to the recruiters andthe heads of marketing out there
that this comes from the top,even if the market, even if the
(08:31):
management partner says you mustwork together, that's that kind
of must do stuff won't actuallycut it the CMO or the head of
director of marketing and thechief recruiting person or
director of recruiting, theyneed to get together. They need
they they first need to to buildthose bridges between each
(08:53):
other. And I think prettyquickly, most marketing folks
will figure out that what therecruiting team is doing is
sales and and marketing and andthey become a they become a
fantastic if they're yourallies, they become a fantastic
new channel for the firm'sbrand. The firm's brand is going
(09:14):
to be in that, in thatrecruiting channel, no matter
what. But if you are able towork with the recruiting team,
you can really develop some somegreat messages and some great
relationships. You know, some ofthe tightest relationships I had
over the years came with peoplewho were, who were the
recruiters.
Steve (09:31):
Because I just, let me just add, let me just add that
there have been a couple ofinstances where I've worked with
directors of recruiting who camefrom the marketing side. They
worked in the marketingdepartment for a number of
years, and invariably, thosewere the among the most
effective recruiters that I'veworked
Unknown (09:52):
right because as a head of recruiting, you. You really,
your recruiting can be kind of amechanical process on the back
end, and that can, that canabsolutely, absolutely has to be
done. But the heads of the ofrecruiting need to, need to kind
(10:13):
of set that tone. And I think itgets set well, and I've seen
that successfully happenmultiple times. So yeah, you're
absolutely right. So let's goback to messaging a little bit.
You talk you talk to me about,and I always think this is kind
of interesting in yourmessaging, first step is to
(10:33):
describe what you're not. Sotalk to me about what the not
is, what that not is all about,
Steve (10:42):
right? I think that if you get a bunch of lawyers in a
room and they talk about theircompetition, it will be very
helpful to learn why they're notlike x firm or y firm. They will
invariably talk about this firm,and they'll say, you know,
they'll say negative thingsabout their competition. Some of
(11:05):
it's hubris, but some of it'sis, is grounded in some level of
truth, and therefore, you get afeel for what you what you are,
by defining what you're not. Andit might be something like, you
know, we're not all things toall people. It might be. We're
(11:25):
not, you know, our, you know,we're not all about dollars.
We're about human values otherthan that. X firm is just, you
know, all they're doing is, youknow, raking in the money. It
will get you somewhere in termsof being able to describe, you
know, who you are, what you bat
Unknown (11:46):
Yeah, yeah. I think that's right, and it's a good
exercise for the partners, forthe recruiting folks, for the
marketing folks, to to engage innature what we're not. And it's
kind of hard sometimes, becauselaw firms want to be everything
to everybody, oftentimes, andyou and I both know they're not.
And you know, a lot of firmshave what I heard consultant
(12:07):
once talk to me about, whichwas, which is, the peaks of
excellence, which I felt was avery politic way of talking
about, talking about the certainfirms bring to the market. Now
here's something that you and Imight have a little bit of
disagreement about, and that isin terms of the qualification of
(12:28):
the firm, and sort of what isimportant in qualifying the firm
in the eyes of the laterals. Andyou, you lean into words,
accolades, etc. So let's talk alittle bit about that, and, and,
and I'll share my thoughts onwhat I how I how I view that,
which is maybe a littledivergent from yours, but
please.
Steve (12:46):
Yeah, I think I believe awards, at least the ones that
are regarded as valid by mostobservers, are important,
because attorneys are tend to bethey're very skeptical, and they
tend to be very analytical.
That's why they went to lawschool and therefore backing up
a claim that your chambers ratednumber one in x is very helpful
(13:10):
to you. Now I will say that someof the rankings that are out
there are not worth a whole lot,and you've got to be careful
about that, because some lawyersalready know that Super Lawyers,
for example, is not the mosthighly regarded accolade that
(13:32):
you can get. Yeah,
Unknown (13:36):
yeah. I agree that the chamber and in, you know,
chambers, as you know, is a, isa big burden for most law firms,
most law firm marketingdepartments. It is a, it is a
big piece of work to get achambers application in so that
there is, there's, there's a lotof work involved in that. And
that's part of why it'svaluable. Because you don't, you
don't get into chambers withouthaving done some, done some done
(13:58):
some groundwork. But, yeah,super lawyers, best lawyers.
What I used to tell the partnerswith the kids, you know,
partners get, partners getspammed with all kinds of
bizarre awards that nobody'sever heard of before. And I
would say, Look, if, if you, ifyou read through the first two
paragraphs, and the thirdparagraph is telling you what
the cost of the plaque will be,you're pretty much you can, you
(14:21):
can delete that. You can deletethat email that is not a valid,
that is not valid. And there'sothers, there's, you know, like
benchmark litigation, I think isgreat. That's that's a really
good one. Any of the AMWA awardsthat that you can, that you can,
you can get into, into a greatthose. Those are really helpful,
especially from a departmentalstandpoint, those are super
(14:43):
helpful. But I will say thatthat I would see that as a
secondary qualification in a lotof respects, because I think,
and this is probably, the wherewe go next, is, is the what most
laterals want to know, is, am Igoing to be successful at your.
Firm, and so, so, you know, Ithink as much as you want to
(15:04):
share how great your firm is,how great your your awards are,
success stories. And Steve, Ithink you can get some thoughts
on the success stories thatreally kind of one of the, I
think one of the importantthings,
Steve (15:17):
right? I think it's very effective. And law firms often
put out brochures with this, sothey're doing it. Many firms are
doing a pretty good job now onsuccess stories. But what I what
I want to see in the successstory is, I want to see the
actual methodology is how thefirm helped a particular lateral
(15:39):
increase their business, andmore cross selling and so forth.
I want to, you know, I want tosee, you know, the marketing and
business development team wasreally instrumental in helping
me expand my, you know, context,or whatever, however it is, I
think that the more you can showthem how it's done, versus just
(16:02):
saying, you know, I joined thefirm and it's been great and
increased my business. That'snot good enough. It's got to be
more about the actual way thefirm does it, because that's
really the differentiator inmany cases,
Unknown (16:15):
yeah, yeah. And I think closely related to that is, you
know, how the compensationsystem is set up, and kind of
the story that the compensationsystem will tell, because we can
have all kinds of flowery wordsaround everything that we're
going to do, and all kinds ofpuffy awards, but when it comes
(16:36):
down to it, compensation is kindof where I mean to use a
horribly overused term, therubber meets the road for
everybody, firms and candidates.
Steve (16:47):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the compensation system is,
is a tremendous window intointo, really what your firm is
all about. And therefore, if youcan share aspects of of the
compensation system that mayhelp the laterals understand why
it's unique. Sometimes firmshave the closed compensation
(17:10):
system. Many people view that asa negative that you don't know
what the other partners aremaking. But sometimes a firm can
explain why that's a positive,particularly for a lateral
because, therefore they're notbeing judged just on their book
of business, and the otherpartners aren't, you know,
weighing in and saying, Well,we're not going to hire this
guy. In addition, I would saythat anything that is unique
(17:37):
about your system that sort ofkeeps it away from the formulaic
systems that are less, so lessthan what they used to be. But
even a lot of the subjectivesystem, it's one of those things
where the originations and thehours you worked are like 98%
you know, I know of, you know,some really interesting examples
(18:01):
firms that don't trackoriginations at all. Yes, they
know, you know that certainpartners are doing what? But
there's no no. And then theother one is, I, you know, I
know one firm that you cannotget 100% origination credit on
any matter. You have to split itup. Nobody gets more than 50% of
(18:21):
that origination, and they splitit up so that you're forced as
the as the billing partner, thatyou're going to have to show how
you're going to share it. And Ijust think that's a really
interesting maybe, you know, itmay be that there's some issues
with that, because if you'redoing all the work yourself,
maybe that's not fair. But Ithink it's an interesting
concept.
Unknown (18:42):
Well, you know what it does, I think too, is that it
incentivizes people not to doall the work themselves, which
is, I mean, the where, the wherethe where the money comes in,
for most law firms, is in theleverage. And so being able to
being able to encourage folks toleverage is really important, I
(19:06):
think. And that's a that's avery interesting compensation
model. I'm sure there's morethere's more subtlety to it, but
it, it that that I've never,I've not heard that before, and
I would be very interested in inknowing how that has impacted
that firm over over time,because that is a that is a
definitive statement in themarketplace. And there are
(19:28):
people who are going to run fromthat, and there's going to
people run to it, and, you know,I just, it's a it's interesting.
And by the way, that would besomething that if I was an
associate, I'd want to know, Iwant to know that that that kind
of a compensation system is inplace because that means there's
more opportunity for you as anassociate, to be sure. All
right, well, Steve, you know oneof the things again, and I'll go
(19:52):
back to this that I know aboutyou, that a lot of people don't
know, is your is your sidehustle, which is stand. Up
comedy. You've been doing it foryears, and so we like to kind of
end on a high note, maybe with ajoke. I'm using anecdote, etc.
Maybe even comes from your, fromone of your, your stand up
(20:13):
honks. But can we? Can we closeabout with a little bit on the,
on the on the on the on thedreaded policy that law firms
feel compelled to to, topublicize that that is, that is
a questionable merit, right?
Steve (20:34):
I think the one sort of statement that tries to
distinguish your firm for othersthat really doesn't work, and is
and is laughable, is when, whenyou say we have a no asshole
policy at our firm, and wedon't, we don't take them in,
and we get rid of them, etc.
Well, I would say this first ofall, that if you're talking to
(20:55):
anybody who's not a lawyer,they're going to say, oh, isn't
that in your job description tobe an asshole? So, and we know,
and I just say lawyers aregreat, and I find them to be
terrific to work with. So it'snot that but, but I just think
it's a it's a lame kind ofsituation. And what I've found
(21:16):
is, and not not true in everycase, but often, the firms with
the most assholes are the oneswho are going to say they have
no asshole. I just don't valueit. If I hear it, I kind of
cringe.
Unknown (21:31):
We kind of cringe.
Yeah, I do too. And that was a,was a we, at least two firms I
worked at, they tried to havethat, and I would have a
discussion with the managingpartner saying, all that tells
people is that they're gonna beworking with a bunch of a holes.
So Steve, we're gonna have toput an explicit, you know,
letter on, on our on ourprogramming for this, for this
(21:57):
week, but, but I think
Steve (22:00):
it's WPG. I mean, I don't think it's worse,
Unknown (22:04):
but, but Steve, was there anything that we didn't
talk about, anything that wemissed, or any pointer that that
that you wanted to make surethat we covered before we close
today?
Steve (22:14):
I think you've hit all the main ones. I mean, there's,
there's lots of things that youcan add, and I'll mention one
that may be because we weretalking about the chambers and
the awards, I would just one ofthe things I would do when I'm
talking to recruiters is go toyour chamber submissions that
has a lot of detailedinformation, and most of it is
(22:36):
public if you put it throughchambers, unless you put A
warning on it that says it's notpublic. That is information that
that you've allowed chambers tosee, and therefore you should be
able to have your recruits seeit as well. And I just think
that's a really good, realinformation about cases and
matters and how you staffed itand so forth. So I would go to
(23:00):
that. That's something I'd lookat before I talk.
Unknown (23:03):
Yeah, and I think, you know, going back to the com, to
how our how our recruiting,senior recruiting folks and our
senior marketing people can, canwork well together, a lot of the
recruiting folks don't exactlyknow. They see the they see the
end of the channel. So didsomebody get chambers rank? They
don't see what leads up to thatend of the channel. And you make
(23:23):
a great point that, that youknow those those chambers, those
chambers, forms that are filledout, are filled with gold and
and gold that the the firm thatthe partners want to be known
for. And you're right, it'sthis, and oftentimes it's very
well written. It is it, is it isit is shareable and and it's
(23:48):
used in pitches and proposals, alot of a lot of marketing
departments. Even though theyknow chambers is a pain, they
welcome it in part becausethey're able to freshen up the
experience database with withnew experience. So I think
that's a great I think that'sgreat tip. I think it's a great
idea. And I would reallyencourage anybody on the
recruiting side to beconsidering that. And if you're
(24:09):
on the marketing side, put thatinto the mix and say, Hey,
here's something we've got.
Because I know marketing, therecruiting folks are always
looking for data, always Allright. Well, with that, Steve,
thank you very much. We will teeup another one of these in short
order. And as always, if youhave any questions, thoughts,
etc, please contact Steve ormyself and make sure that you
(24:33):
get on the McCormick group'smailing list so you get the DC
lateral report, the Texaslateral report, and other kinds
of intelligence that McCormickgroup, especially Steve, put out
during the course of the year.
And I know that Steve and hiscolleagues are out there
speaking and in the public eyequite a bit well. Thank you.
(24:56):
Murray, great. All right. Well,why don't we close. And we'll
talk soon. All right, take care.
Steve.
Murray, welcome to Steve's rules, periodic podcast
(00:10):
featuring Steve Nelson,executive principal at McCormick
group in the law and governmentaffairs practice. My name is
Murray Coffey, and I am theprincipal of Adam Coffey, a law
firm marketing and businessdevelopment Boutique. For more
information, please visit mywebsite at M coffey.net Steve
has been an executive recruiterfor nearly three decades, and
without naming names, he isready to spill the tea on best
(00:32):
practices, and maybe a few notso best practices by firms and
candidates that he has seenduring his career, recruiting
some of the most driven andsuccessful professional into
highly profitable and growingfirms. Steve is a former lawyer
and journalist and is a fellowof the college of law practice
management and a proud son ofWilkes Barre, Pennsylvania. Full
(00:52):
transparency here, Steve hashelped my career immensely
through the years and has becomesomething of a career shaman to
me and I know many others. Well,welcome back. Hi, Steve, how are
you today? Good. How are youMurray, I'm great. I'm
especially great because it'sthe first day of summer. So here
(01:15):
in Texas, it's over 100 degreesalready. So
Steve (01:18):
Well, you wouldn't know it's summer here, it's like 65
degrees and raining. So Yikes,it's been, it's actually been a
very cool spring. So which I am,I'm fine with. You're
Unknown (01:28):
probably fine with, of course, as am I. So before we
dive into today's topic, whichis really kind of the six things
you as a firm need to be doingto prepare yourself for lateral
recruiting. Maybe seven. We'llsee where we go with the
conversation. I did see today,Steve, that the your DC lateral
(01:50):
market report for May is out.
And these are, these are, youknow, must reads for people who
are in the market looking forlateral recruits. So Steve, if
you wanted to just give us thetop line highlights, maybe a
trend or two that you're seeingcoming out of these numbers. And
then if people want tosubscribe, how they can how they
(02:11):
can subscribe.
Steve (02:13):
Okay, so may was a was a pretty busy month for the
lateral scene in Washington. Andoverall for the this year, the
number of laterals is upsomewhat, not not significantly,
but maybe 5% up from from lastyear. The interesting thing that
(02:35):
happened in May, and is actuallyreflective of what's going on
throughout the year, is thatthere were two large group moves
that really keyed the growth inMay. And we're seeing a lot of
large group moves, and those aredifferent varieties. Ones are
mergers. Been a fair number ofmergers. There was not a merger
(02:55):
last month, but there have beena lot of mergers dissolutions,
where large groups of lawyerstend to go to one firm and then
spin offs. And there was a spinoff last month, and there was
also a dissolution that led to15 lawyers going to another
firm. So I think that's thetrend that's going on. We're
talking we're seeing more groupmoves, more large group moves
(03:18):
many times a whole firm or alarge segment of a firm.
Unknown (03:24):
Well, I know that when I've been involved in lateral
recruiting, the highest level ofsuccess, frankly, that we saw of
laterals, when laterals cameover in a group, three, four
laterals at a time, it justseemed that they were able to
get going faster. And had a sortof, had a built in, some built
(03:47):
in capabilities. So I'm notsurprised to see that that's on,
on the upswing,
Steve (03:52):
right? And that's the gold standard, is to try to get
groups, two partners, threepartners, bunch of associates,
etc. That's the gold standard.
Doesn't always happen, butthat's what we do. One other
thing I just want to note forour listeners. If you're
interested in subscribing to ourreports, we do one for DC, we do
one for Texas, just reach out tome at the McCormick group, and
(04:14):
I'll put you on the list
Unknown (04:20):
super and maybe at some later date, we can talk about
what's going on in Texas. That'sa giant jurisdiction. I'm here.
I'm in the middle of the of thecraziness that's been going on
for the past few years. So soI'll be I'll be interested in
having that discussion. Well,today, Steve, we're teeing up a
discussion about, really, whatfirms need to be doing to
(04:42):
prepare themselves for reallyengaging in smart, strategic,
lateral recruiting. And I knowthere's about six or seven
different areas that you and Ihave talked about, that you've
seen, and this is born outthrough. Lots of experience that
you've had in watching, franklyfailures, frankly weak
(05:05):
performance, and sometimesreally strong performance. And I
know we like lean into thepositive. So let's talk. Let's
start a little bit. So I thinkone of the things that we talked
about was focusing on thefocusing on why this is, this is
sales stuff here. Why the thelateral candidate may want to
(05:27):
join your firm and talk a littlebit about that, that's that's
somewhat different than than howthe firms usually approach it.
So tell me a little bit moreabout
Steve (05:34):
that. Yeah, no, I think you there are really two
different aspects of this. Oneis the practice, whatever
practice you're looking torecruit in, you have to put your
best for foot forward as to thenature of your practice, the
advantage of your practice,where you stand, what's in it
for for a recruit to join apractice, sometimes it's it's a
(05:57):
succession issue. You've gotpartner who's about to retire.
You bring in somebody who cantake advantage of those
relationships in time. But theremay be different, different,
different stories that areinvolved. The second is the firm
itself, and I think that's whereit's tougher for firms to really
get a grasp on it in terms ofwhat is, what is unique about
(06:18):
your firm? We we just hear thesame things over and over again.
We're collegial, we'recollaborative, we're
entrepreneurial. Well, that justdoesn't cut it. It's got to be
much more granular, much morespecific about what is the DNA
in your firm? Yeah,
Unknown (06:35):
and I that those that, those those three, those three
big words, you know, collegial,and all the rest of it, those
seem to be ingrained in the inthe neural synapses of law
firms. They can't breakthemselves away from, from
saying that and and maybe, youknow this is actually a good to
pivot into the other topic thatwe talked about, which is
(06:57):
working with the marketingdepartments before the for the
firm is, is hitting the lateralmarket in a in a big way. Can
you talk about why that would bein, in how marketing departments
themselves, marketersthemselves, can add value to the
process? Because, frankly, Idon't think a lot do.
Steve (07:18):
Yeah, no, we often see a little bit of a of a barrier
between the recruiting team andthe marketing team. We're not
seeing them interact that muchin terms of our role in helping
a firm really put together thecase for for laterals and your
marketing team. I mean, that's,that's what they do. They are
(07:43):
focused on communications thatreally distinguish your firm
from others, when when you'regoing after business, when going
after clients. So the same thingkind of applies. It's a little
different view of it. Recruitsare a little different in terms
of how you do it, but, but themarketing department can really
(08:05):
get you a lot of ammunition thatyou need, that that that firms
often overlook.
Unknown (08:10):
Yeah, and I will tell you that from my perspective as
a CMO at a number of differentAMLO 100 firms, where I worked
directly with the recruitingteams. And this is maybe more of
a message to the recruiters andthe heads of marketing out there
that this comes from the top,even if the market, even if the
(08:31):
management partner says you mustwork together, that's that kind
of must do stuff won't actuallycut it the CMO or the head of
director of marketing and thechief recruiting person or
director of recruiting, theyneed to get together. They need
they they first need to to buildthose bridges between each
(08:53):
other. And I think prettyquickly, most marketing folks
will figure out that what therecruiting team is doing is
sales and and marketing and andthey become a they become a
fantastic if they're yourallies, they become a fantastic
new channel for the firm'sbrand. The firm's brand is going
(09:14):
to be in that, in thatrecruiting channel, no matter
what. But if you are able towork with the recruiting team,
you can really develop some somegreat messages and some great
relationships. You know, some ofthe tightest relationships I had
over the years came with peoplewho were, who were the
recruiters.
Steve (09:31):
Because I just, let me just add, let me just add that
there have been a couple ofinstances where I've worked with
directors of recruiting who camefrom the marketing side. They
worked in the marketingdepartment for a number of
years, and invariably, thosewere the among the most
effective recruiters that I'veworked
Unknown (09:52):
right because as a head of recruiting, you. You really,
your recruiting can be kind of amechanical process on the back
end, and that can, that canabsolutely, absolutely has to be
done. But the heads of the ofrecruiting need to, need to kind
(10:13):
of set that tone. And I think itgets set well, and I've seen
that successfully happenmultiple times. So yeah, you're
absolutely right. So let's goback to messaging a little bit.
You talk you talk to me about,and I always think this is kind
of interesting in yourmessaging, first step is to
(10:33):
describe what you're not. Sotalk to me about what the not
is, what that not is all about,
Steve (10:42):
right? I think that if you get a bunch of lawyers in a
room and they talk about theircompetition, it will be very
helpful to learn why they're notlike x firm or y firm. They will
invariably talk about this firm,and they'll say, you know,
they'll say negative thingsabout their competition. Some of
(11:05):
it's hubris, but some of it'sis, is grounded in some level of
truth, and therefore, you get afeel for what you what you are,
by defining what you're not. Andit might be something like, you
know, we're not all things toall people. It might be. We're
(11:25):
not, you know, our, you know,we're not all about dollars.
We're about human values otherthan that. X firm is just, you
know, all they're doing is, youknow, raking in the money. It
will get you somewhere in termsof being able to describe, you
know, who you are, what you bat
Unknown (11:46):
Yeah, yeah. I think that's right, and it's a good
exercise for the partners, forthe recruiting folks, for the
marketing folks, to to engage innature what we're not. And it's
kind of hard sometimes, becauselaw firms want to be everything
to everybody, oftentimes, andyou and I both know they're not.
And you know, a lot of firmshave what I heard consultant
(12:07):
once talk to me about, whichwas, which is, the peaks of
excellence, which I felt was avery politic way of talking
about, talking about the certainfirms bring to the market. Now
here's something that you and Imight have a little bit of
disagreement about, and that isin terms of the qualification of
(12:28):
the firm, and sort of what isimportant in qualifying the firm
in the eyes of the laterals. Andyou, you lean into words,
accolades, etc. So let's talk alittle bit about that, and, and,
and I'll share my thoughts onwhat I how I how I view that,
which is maybe a littledivergent from yours, but
please.
Steve (12:46):
Yeah, I think I believe awards, at least the ones that
are regarded as valid by mostobservers, are important,
because attorneys are tend to bethey're very skeptical, and they
tend to be very analytical.
That's why they went to lawschool and therefore backing up
a claim that your chambers ratednumber one in x is very helpful
(13:10):
to you. Now I will say that someof the rankings that are out
there are not worth a whole lot,and you've got to be careful
about that, because some lawyersalready know that Super Lawyers,
for example, is not the mosthighly regarded accolade that
(13:32):
you can get. Yeah,
Unknown (13:36):
yeah. I agree that the chamber and in, you know,
chambers, as you know, is a, isa big burden for most law firms,
most law firm marketingdepartments. It is a, it is a
big piece of work to get achambers application in so that
there is, there's, there's a lotof work involved in that. And
that's part of why it'svaluable. Because you don't, you
don't get into chambers withouthaving done some, done some done
(13:58):
some groundwork. But, yeah,super lawyers, best lawyers.
What I used to tell the partnerswith the kids, you know,
partners get, partners getspammed with all kinds of
bizarre awards that nobody'sever heard of before. And I
would say, Look, if, if you, ifyou read through the first two
paragraphs, and the thirdparagraph is telling you what
the cost of the plaque will be,you're pretty much you can, you
(14:21):
can delete that. You can deletethat email that is not a valid,
that is not valid. And there'sothers, there's, you know, like
benchmark litigation, I think isgreat. That's that's a really
good one. Any of the AMWA awardsthat that you can, that you can,
you can get into, into a greatthose. Those are really helpful,
especially from a departmentalstandpoint, those are super
(14:43):
helpful. But I will say thatthat I would see that as a
secondary qualification in a lotof respects, because I think,
and this is probably, the wherewe go next, is, is the what most
laterals want to know, is, am Igoing to be successful at your.
Firm, and so, so, you know, Ithink as much as you want to
(15:04):
share how great your firm is,how great your your awards are,
success stories. And Steve, Ithink you can get some thoughts
on the success stories thatreally kind of one of the, I
think one of the importantthings,
Steve (15:17):
right? I think it's very effective. And law firms often
put out brochures with this, sothey're doing it. Many firms are
doing a pretty good job now onsuccess stories. But what I what
I want to see in the successstory is, I want to see the
actual methodology is how thefirm helped a particular lateral
(15:39):
increase their business, andmore cross selling and so forth.
I want to, you know, I want tosee, you know, the marketing and
business development team wasreally instrumental in helping
me expand my, you know, context,or whatever, however it is, I
think that the more you can showthem how it's done, versus just
(16:02):
saying, you know, I joined thefirm and it's been great and
increased my business. That'snot good enough. It's got to be
more about the actual way thefirm does it, because that's
really the differentiator inmany cases,
Unknown (16:15):
yeah, yeah. And I think closely related to that is, you
know, how the compensationsystem is set up, and kind of
the story that the compensationsystem will tell, because we can
have all kinds of flowery wordsaround everything that we're
going to do, and all kinds ofpuffy awards, but when it comes
(16:36):
down to it, compensation is kindof where I mean to use a
horribly overused term, therubber meets the road for
everybody, firms and candidates.
Steve (16:47):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the compensation system is,
is a tremendous window intointo, really what your firm is
all about. And therefore, if youcan share aspects of of the
compensation system that mayhelp the laterals understand why
it's unique. Sometimes firmshave the closed compensation
(17:10):
system. Many people view that asa negative that you don't know
what the other partners aremaking. But sometimes a firm can
explain why that's a positive,particularly for a lateral
because, therefore they're notbeing judged just on their book
of business, and the otherpartners aren't, you know,
weighing in and saying, Well,we're not going to hire this
guy. In addition, I would saythat anything that is unique
(17:37):
about your system that sort ofkeeps it away from the formulaic
systems that are less, so lessthan what they used to be. But
even a lot of the subjectivesystem, it's one of those things
where the originations and thehours you worked are like 98%
you know, I know of, you know,some really interesting examples
(18:01):
firms that don't trackoriginations at all. Yes, they
know, you know that certainpartners are doing what? But
there's no no. And then theother one is, I, you know, I
know one firm that you cannotget 100% origination credit on
any matter. You have to split itup. Nobody gets more than 50% of
(18:21):
that origination, and they splitit up so that you're forced as
the as the billing partner, thatyou're going to have to show how
you're going to share it. And Ijust think that's a really
interesting maybe, you know, itmay be that there's some issues
with that, because if you'redoing all the work yourself,
maybe that's not fair. But Ithink it's an interesting
concept.
Unknown (18:42):
Well, you know what it does, I think too, is that it
incentivizes people not to doall the work themselves, which
is, I mean, the where, the wherethe where the money comes in,
for most law firms, is in theleverage. And so being able to
being able to encourage folks toleverage is really important, I
(19:06):
think. And that's a that's avery interesting compensation
model. I'm sure there's morethere's more subtlety to it, but
it, it that that I've never,I've not heard that before, and
I would be very interested in inknowing how that has impacted
that firm over over time,because that is a that is a
definitive statement in themarketplace. And there are
(19:28):
people who are going to run fromthat, and there's going to
people run to it, and, you know,I just, it's a it's interesting.
And by the way, that would besomething that if I was an
associate, I'd want to know, Iwant to know that that that kind
of a compensation system is inplace because that means there's
more opportunity for you as anassociate, to be sure. All
right, well, Steve, you know oneof the things again, and I'll go
(19:52):
back to this that I know aboutyou, that a lot of people don't
know, is your is your sidehustle, which is stand. Up
comedy. You've been doing it foryears, and so we like to kind of
end on a high note, maybe with ajoke. I'm using anecdote, etc.
Maybe even comes from your, fromone of your, your stand up
(20:13):
honks. But can we? Can we closeabout with a little bit on the,
on the on the on the on thedreaded policy that law firms
feel compelled to to, topublicize that that is, that is
a questionable merit, right?
Steve (20:34):
I think the one sort of statement that tries to
distinguish your firm for othersthat really doesn't work, and is
and is laughable, is when, whenyou say we have a no asshole
policy at our firm, and wedon't, we don't take them in,
and we get rid of them, etc.
Well, I would say this first ofall, that if you're talking to
(20:55):
anybody who's not a lawyer,they're going to say, oh, isn't
that in your job description tobe an asshole? So, and we know,
and I just say lawyers aregreat, and I find them to be
terrific to work with. So it'snot that but, but I just think
it's a it's a lame kind ofsituation. And what I've found
(21:16):
is, and not not true in everycase, but often, the firms with
the most assholes are the oneswho are going to say they have
no asshole. I just don't valueit. If I hear it, I kind of
cringe.
Unknown (21:31):
We kind of cringe.
Yeah, I do too. And that was a,was a we, at least two firms I
worked at, they tried to havethat, and I would have a
discussion with the managingpartner saying, all that tells
people is that they're gonna beworking with a bunch of a holes.
So Steve, we're gonna have toput an explicit, you know,
letter on, on our on ourprogramming for this, for this
(21:57):
week, but, but I think
Steve (22:00):
it's WPG. I mean, I don't think it's worse,
Unknown (22:04):
but, but Steve, was there anything that we didn't
talk about, anything that wemissed, or any pointer that that
that you wanted to make surethat we covered before we close
today?
Steve (22:14):
I think you've hit all the main ones. I mean, there's,
there's lots of things that youcan add, and I'll mention one
that may be because we weretalking about the chambers and
the awards, I would just one ofthe things I would do when I'm
talking to recruiters is go toyour chamber submissions that
has a lot of detailedinformation, and most of it is
(22:36):
public if you put it throughchambers, unless you put A
warning on it that says it's notpublic. That is information that
that you've allowed chambers tosee, and therefore you should be
able to have your recruits seeit as well. And I just think
that's a really good, realinformation about cases and
matters and how you staffed itand so forth. So I would go to
(23:00):
that. That's something I'd lookat before I talk.
Unknown (23:03):
Yeah, and I think, you know, going back to the com, to
how our how our recruiting,senior recruiting folks and our
senior marketing people can, canwork well together, a lot of the
recruiting folks don't exactlyknow. They see the they see the
end of the channel. So didsomebody get chambers rank? They
don't see what leads up to thatend of the channel. And you make
(23:23):
a great point that, that youknow those those chambers, those
chambers, forms that are filledout, are filled with gold and
and gold that the the firm thatthe partners want to be known
for. And you're right, it'sthis, and oftentimes it's very
well written. It is it, is it isit is shareable and and it's
(23:48):
used in pitches and proposals, alot of a lot of marketing
departments. Even though theyknow chambers is a pain, they
welcome it in part becausethey're able to freshen up the
experience database with withnew experience. So I think
that's a great I think that'sgreat tip. I think it's a great
idea. And I would reallyencourage anybody on the
recruiting side to beconsidering that. And if you're
(24:09):
on the marketing side, put thatinto the mix and say, Hey,
here's something we've got.
Because I know marketing, therecruiting folks are always
looking for data, always Allright. Well, with that, Steve,
thank you very much. We will teeup another one of these in short
order. And as always, if youhave any questions, thoughts,
etc, please contact Steve ormyself and make sure that you
(24:33):
get on the McCormick group'smailing list so you get the DC
lateral report, the Texaslateral report, and other kinds
of intelligence that McCormickgroup, especially Steve, put out
during the course of the year.
And I know that Steve and hiscolleagues are out there
speaking and in the public eyequite a bit well. Thank you.
(24:56):
Murray, great. All right. Well,why don't we close. And we'll
talk soon. All right, take care.
Steve.
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