S2 Episode 7: Inside the Grave

We spend time detailing what was and what wasn’t found inside the shallow grave where the Finley Creek Jane Doe was discovered. Can any of these details get us closer to learning who the woman was and who may have killed her? We also reveal an interesting twist related to the discovery of her remains.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
This podcast contains intense subject matter.Listener discretion is advised. Previously on Still

(00:21):
So nobody in my family. They'reall saying, Susan, I see kind
of a resemblance, But there's noway that's your mom. We would have
known she's prime that there's no wayshe could have said that, And something
that people who came forward and said, you know, when they saw her
and everything, which was either shewent and stayed with somebody else because she

(00:45):
was seen by people that lived downthe street from him, and they all
knew her well, and she wentfor walks daily. She was always battling
her weight. But it was calledknowledge that they were running a call girl
ring out of the top floor ofthe tab of Era Hotel. From the

(01:23):
pages of the reporter's notebook. Thisis still season two. I'm your host,
Gary Anderson. I want to rewinda little and discuss in more detail

(02:16):
what investigators found and what they didn'tfind in the grave of the Jane Doe
discovered near Finlay Creek in the BlueMountains of eastern Oregon. To refresh your
memory, in late August of nineteenseventy eight, Rob Parr was eight years
old and had gone hunting with hisdad. Another boy in their hunting party

(02:37):
found the graveside on a game trail, part way up a steep hill.
The boy made his way back tocamp to tell the others what he saw.
This is how Rob described it ina previous episode, when we came
back up and found it, youknow, because it was initially found and
then you know, the kid didn'tknow where it was, and so everybody

(02:57):
came up looking. And I remembermy dad and I we were done.
We were we couldn't find it.Everybody's calling it quits, and we were
headed back and we were coming fromthis direction down the trail, and bam,
there it was. But I vividlyremember the skull, the boots in

(03:21):
between the skull and ribcage. Ican see it playing his day. First,
let's talk about the clothing. RememberPatty Otto was last seen wearing a
white sleeveless blouse and red pants.Her outfit didn't fully match what investigators said

(03:47):
they found in the grave what Irecall reading. And we were able to
get the records from the state police. It took a while, but we
did get them. This as FinlayCreek, Jindo Task Force investigator and researcher
Melinda Jetterberg, and the investigators describedsome white cloth and some white cloth with

(04:15):
red hearts on it. They alsodescribed a white either halter top or bra
style top. A personal think itwas just straight up a bra. It
seems that investigators assumed that the halterwas the only top the Jindo was wearing.

(04:40):
Melinda believes it was simply a basslayer and the woman was wearing a
shirt over the bra or halter top. The outer layer of clothing could have
been torn away during a struggle oreven carried away by animals. The their
piece of cloth found which had redhearts may have been part of that shirt.

(05:04):
Some of the researchers have wondered ifthe hearts may have actually been red
flowers or cherries that crime scene investigatorsmisremembered or documented incorrectly. But I keep
thinking, you know, it wasa bunch of men who dug this grade
out, so you know, theyobserved what they see and write it down.
And then they had this pair ofred pants that they described them as

(05:29):
Catalina pants, a junior size.I believe it was fifteen sixteen. They
were red, and they showed evidenceof length alteration. And immediately what my
mind went to was when I wasgrowing up late seventies, early eighties,
as my mom had these polyester pantsand she had a red pair, and

(05:53):
they had an elastic waistband, Andso that's what has always been in my
mind about what those pants looked like, simply because we don't have pictures of
them. All we have is adescription. They weren't even They didn't really
even describe whether there was an elasticwaste fan, whether there was a zipper
on the pants. They do describesome zippers in the grave, but not

(06:17):
really saying what they were from,So potentially they could have been from the
pants, maybe some of the otherfabric made up a jacket, I don't
know. They just describe it asa zipper being in there. At least
one other woman who was found murderedin this area a few years after the
discovery of the Finlay Creek, JaneDoe, was also wearing red bottoms.

(06:41):
Here's a retired Union County District Attorney, Dale Mammon. The early one was
during my term, which was SylviaHeistemann, and a local person that was
jogging in one of the rural roadsright adjoining the city and was brutally murdered,
left in a creek bed, andher murder, my knowledge, has

(07:04):
never been solved. But the bodywas located, but the perpetrator iss unknown.
Then I'm still unknown. Sylvia wasforty three years old and was wearing
a white top in red shorts whenshe vanished. We also found reports of
a few other women in the PacificNorthwest who went missing while wearing red or

(07:27):
rust colored pants. But we don'twant you to jump to conclusions about a
serial killer with a fetish for redpants hunting down victims. That's certainly possible,
but it's definitely not a foregone conclusion. Red was a fairly popular color
for pants in the mid seventies andearly eighties. ABC News goes to the

(07:53):
Great American Birthday Body for those ofyou too young to remember, nineteen seventy
six was a year of fanfare andpageantry as the nation celebrated its two hundredth
birthday. Red, white, andblue were everywhere in fashion. Even Fara

(08:16):
Faucets swimsuit in that iconic poster wasa blazing shade of red. Susann Thimmes
has a photo of her mother,Patti Otto, from the mid seventies wearing
stretchy red trousers, possibly the samepants she was described as wearing when she
vanished. We researched the Catalina brand, which was the label on the red

(08:37):
pants the Jane Doe was wearing.The Catalina company, which is based in
California, now specializes in swimwear,but back in the nineteen seventies, the
fashion line had expanded to what wasconsidered better sportswear, including shirts, pants,
shorts, and skirts. This wasn'ta brand you'd find in discount clothing

(08:58):
stores. The clothes were the casualsheikhs style favored by tennis players and ladies
of leisure. An internet searge forsimilar vintage pants turned up a pair of
orange red Cantelina brand pants for sale. They were the exact size of the
pants in the grave. The waistmeasurements for the pants listed for sale is

(09:20):
thirty to thirty four inches in modernclothing, that's the equivalent of a lady's
medium or large, and could beanything from a lady's size eight to a
fourteen. If anyone listening has pantslike this in your closet or remembers owning
a pair, we'd love to hearfrom you. Now back to what was

(09:41):
inside the shallow grave. Other thanthe bra style top, there were no
undergarments found there, but investigators believedthat may have been because of animals scavenging.
That also supports our idea that ashirt of some sort may have once

(10:03):
been in the grave. And thenthere was the Jando's footwear. The ankle
high boots she was wearing weren't necessarilya fashionable choice, but she may have
chosen them for practicality, especially ifshe was planning to do a lot of
walking. Here's mel Jetterburg again.As a matter of fact, the suggestions

(10:28):
that have been given to the FillyCreek Jando page are very distinctly men's shoes.
It's images of men's shoes that havebeen suggested. They have thicker soles
on them with a distinct heel,so instead of being like a flat all
one piece soule, there's definitely likea footbed and then a heel on them.

(10:52):
And one of the shoes is alsoworn towards the ball of the foot
a lot more than the other oneis, so it appears, and this
is an observation that was made bysome of the Facebook page followers as well
that the one shoe, it's like, did they have a limp? Was

(11:13):
there something wrong with her foot becauseit looks like one of those shoes is
worn down a lot more on kindof the inside of the foot than the
other shoes. A lot of theoriescame up because of the boots, like
maybe she's a hitchhiker and that's whythey were worn on one side, or
maybe they were just out for aday, and though she borrowed those shoes,

(11:35):
that they weren't actually hers. Therehave been a couple of different suggestions
like that, but we none ofus feel like those are women's shoes.
We feel very strongly those were men'sshoes and probably not hers. We're going

(12:11):
to talk more about the boots andsome of our own theories we've developed in
the next episode. For now,let's talk about what else was in and
around the grave. If you recallfrom the last episode, Amity Larson's search

(12:39):
dog Brenn, had given a trainedfinal response indicating she had located the odor
of human remains near a tree closeto the grave site. We are hopeful
that new evidence might be found tohelp us get closer to answers this is

(13:00):
Amity talking about seeing her dog givethe alert. So um, I mean
it was exciting, but he thought, well, that's interesting. So we
pulled her out and I sent herback in and worked, and she had
many of the same behaviors why ithad had with Plimnut the tree, but

(13:22):
she was more interested in the groundarea. So we actually spent some time
really looking and kind of trying todisturb things without being you know, you're
looking for something really, really small, and so we kind of worked around
there to see if we could uncoversomething that wasn't very very deep, and

(13:45):
then we would send her back inand she would give a trained final response.
We visually didn't see anything, butwe also didn't want to disturb the
area a whole lot where we weren'tprepared to collect anything. That we did
mark it correctly that time and tooklots and lots of photograph After driving back

(14:07):
from searching that day, Ammony gotin touch with other canine search experts to
get their opinions about what happened withthe dogs that day. The first person
she talked with, Paul Martin,recommended organizing an archaeological dig of the grave
site. She also talked with JohnnyJoyce, an internationally certified canine handler and

(14:28):
trainer. She feels like though whenshe looked at the map of the location
of where the grave is and thedistance to the trees, when we mapped
it out with the GPS and everything, she feels like the time and Daby
were there, that the sun andwhen we talked about wind direction all of
that, she believed that odor fromthe grave site was being pulled up the

(14:52):
hill of short ways in that directionand caught in those trees, and that
that's what the dog for picking upon, especially where Wyatt had odd at
the grade site and been so interestedin it. Melinda and Suzanne are working
to organize a more thorough grid searchof the area, along with some digging

(15:13):
for bones later in twenty twenty twoafter the snow melts. Oregon State Police
will be there when the team returnsto the site. Back in nineteen seventy
eight, investigators also found two piecesof coaxle cable that had been knotted together.
The cable was in the dirt nearwhat would have been the Jane Doe's
neck. They noted that the cablecould have come from a CBE radio and

(15:37):
they speculated that it may have beenused to strangle the woman. Again,
we don't want to jump to conclusionsabout the CBE radio. A CBE radio
may make you immediately think of truckers, but a lot of people who didn't
drive for a living had CBE radiosin the nineteen seventies. This was long

(15:58):
before cell phones, so cb werea convenient way to communicate while on the
road in rural America. They werepractically standard issue when you bought a vehicle
because CB radios and their accessories wereso common. The cable doesn't provide a
terribly useful clue, but if thecable still existed, it might be possible
to find DNA belonging to the killeron it. Keep in mind, too,

(16:22):
that investigators theorized that it came froma CB, but there were plenty
of other uses for coax cable backin the seventies. We don't have detailed
photos of the cable found in thegrave, so we can't be certain what
the ends looked like, if theyhad a specific type of connector, or
if the ends had been cut.Even the exact length of the cable isn't

(16:45):
clear well. The police report saysapproximately two feet long and tied in a
notch, and that was how DocBaker notated it. Doc Baker was the

(17:07):
Oregon State Police trooper who originally respondedto the scene, and I think that
three feet probably came from Dale Mammonfrom the press release that he did.
I think his was more of anapproximate estimation based on conversation rather than actually

(17:27):
and I'm not sure that anyone actuallyever took a tape measure and measured the
thing out. These are all justapproximate, And when you have a big,
not tight in the middle of it, you know, radio cable's not
going to be the most flexible,so that could take up a good four
to six inches in the middle thatthey kind of have to guestimate for.

(17:49):
So right, so between between twoand three feet. We don't have a
copy of a supplemental report that wouldhave given more details about the cable measurements
and other items in the grave.The investigator in the Oregon State Crime Lab
indicated in his initial documentation of theevidence that he would create another narrative with

(18:11):
more specifics about everything found at thescene, but it's unclear if that report
was ever generated. Neither Melinda norher cohort Jason Futch, received a copy
of it when they were given theremaining records. The investigator who authored the
preliminary report has since passed away.We also reached out to the state trooper

(18:33):
who signed the final report before theFinlay Creek case was officially closed. His
wife told us that he was requiredto turn in the notes related to all
his cases when he retired, andhe didn't have information that might help us.
At the grave site, some charredpieces of wood were also found on
the trail near the woman's remains,along with a partially burned wooden match and

(18:56):
no baby clothes, right correct.That's one thing that I noted early on
because one of the things that DaleMammon had speculated early on was that this
could be a brand newborn. Butthere's nothing to indicate that it was an
infant who was dressed or had anythings with it either. Everything they found

(19:22):
in the grave indicated that those wereclothing items that belonged to the mom,
so likely that's why they were ableto draw the conclusion that she was pregnant
rather than actually had an infant withher, right and even in the summer
most of the time if you're leavingthe house with a really young baby,
you've got a blanket with you.Oh yeah, you've got all kinds of

(19:47):
accessories with you. They've got ababy with you on the woods. And
none of that was there. Justliterally, the clothing on this woman's back
is all that was there, notablyabsent from the crime I seen or a
purse, backpack, or other belongingsto indicate she may have been a hiker
or a traveler who had hitched aride. Where are her things? Where

(20:10):
is her stuff? She is alate teen to early twenties, estimated she
looked to be a relatively fashionable younglady. She was pregnant. She's out
in the woods. If she's outthere of her own free will, maybe
having a little stroll, where's herstuff? Where's her you know? Where's

(20:33):
her chapstick? Where's any jewelry?There was no jewelry, no earrings,
necklace, no belt, no ringson the fingers, nothing like that.
So where is all that? Thewoman's right arm had become separated from the
rest of her body, possibly becauseof animal activity. There were no scars

(20:53):
from violence on her skeleton, butinvestigators feel certain that she was murdered.
The pieces of cable in the graveand the fact that she had been buried
did indicate an attempt by some oneto conceal a crime. If the woman
didn't walk up to that spot whereshe was found under her own power,
someone must have carried or dragged herup that fairly steep and rocky hill.

(21:18):
It's certainly not Denali, but it'salso not a particularly easy hike. Several
people in our group lost their footingon different occasions while climbing the hill to
see the grave site. Based onrough calculations we made the trail where she
was buried is up a thirty footrise with about a twenty percent grade.
If you tumbled down the hill,you'd land in a dry creek bed filled

(21:41):
with large river rocks. There areno artificial lights in the area to help
someone making that trek in the dark. That's one reason Rob Parr and his
dad were about to give up searchingfor the remains. The other boy in
the hunting party told them about thesun was set, it was going to
be too dark to find anything anddifficult to get back to their campsite even

(22:04):
if they did find her. It'sworth noting that The amount of moonlight Rob
and his dad had that night wouldhave been similar to what was in the
sky in late August or early Septembernineteen seventy six when Patti Otto vanished.
But in nineteen seventy six, theground would have been dry. Just a

(22:29):
few days before Rob and his dadwent hunting in these hills. In nineteen
seventy eight, a thirty minute cloudburstthoroughly soaked the ground in Umatilla County,
a few miles west of Findlay Creek. A newspaper account described a wall of
mud more than six feet high thathad accumulated in one spot. We had

(22:49):
to wonder if some of the rainthat saturated Umatilla County also spilled over into
Union County, helping to uncover theJane Doe's remains that were waiting to be
covered. Regardless of how it happened, pieces of her skeleton were plainly visible
when the hunters arrived at that spotin late August nineteen seventy eight. Now

(23:12):
I need to let you in ona truly astonishing coincidence regarding that hunting party.
The crazy part of this is that'sin nineteen seventy eight, when I
told you I was dating that guyin two thousand and six. That's Patty's
daughter Suzanne talking. It's the grandsonof the hunter, and I would not

(23:37):
know that until now, As youheard Suzanne start to explain. Before the

(24:04):
break, she started dating a mannamed Gary Times. In two thousand and
six, they got married and thewoman who had once been dallas Otto became
Suzanne Times. Gary Times's stepfather isRob Parr, who you've heard talking about

(24:29):
finding the Finlay Creek Jane Doe.Rob's dad, Lee Parr, was named
in a nineteen seventy eight newspaper articleabout the discovery of the skeleton. Rob,
who was only eight at the time, wasn't mentioned in the article and
he had never talked with his stepsigabout that experience. Suzanne looked up the

(24:55):
article after she saw the forensic artistsrendering of the Finlay Creek Jane Doe on
Facebook in the summer of twenty twentyone. She was shocked to see the
name Lee Parr in the article.Le par is my husband's grandpa, and
I'm like, Gary, did yourgrandpa ever mentioned you guys that he found

(25:15):
a body. Long before she metSusanne, Melinda had tried tracking down the
two hunters. Rob's grandfather, LeeParr, passed away in two thousand and
nine, and letters Melinda mailed tothe other hunter when unanswered, here's Susanne
again? And how does that notcome up in a conversation? I guess
it just doesn't. So I tellmy husband, I'm calling your dad.

(25:41):
He's a correctional officer at the statepenitentiary. You know they now all phones
in there, They can their phones. I don't care. I'm calling him.
Maybe he'll be off work. Idon't care. I'm calling him.
I don't care if he's at work. I'm calling him. This is important
right now. I'm like, Rob, did your dad ever mentioned finding a
body in nineteen seventy eight when hewas out hunting? And He's like,

(26:04):
Susanne, how do you know aboutthat? I never told you about that?
What do you know about that?Rob? He was like, I
was a little kid. I willnever forget that. And I'm like,
Rob, I think you found mymom. He's like what He's like,

(26:26):
how did this not ever come upin a conversation? We must have some
wild Thanksgiving dinners? Right, I'mlike, how does this not come up?
Rob? I'm missing a mother.You find a body when you're a
child, and that never comes upin a conversation that I've never found a
body. Nobody else I've ever noticedfound a body. But I'm missing a
parents and you found a body.What are the chances that you found my

(26:49):
mother in nineteen seventy eight. He'slike, no way, there is no
way. If you're finding all thisjust too incredible to believe. We were
right there with you. We askedMelinda Jetterburgh how she felt when she first
learned of that connection. I wishthat you could have been in my house

(27:11):
when Suzanne, I am to me. Now we had only been I Ami
for a day or two, shesaid, And I'm sure there was an
expletive in this I am. Shesaid, I think my father in law
is the one who found her body. And at first I was speechless,

(27:36):
and then it was like, ohmy god, oh my god, oh
my you know, I could notbelieve it. So I said, tell
me more. And I said,does Rob mind me calling him? And
she said no, it does not. And I had a conversation with him
about it, because you know,I thought, no, there is no
way, there is no way.That's too big of a coincidence, But

(28:00):
the way he described the area andwhat he saw it was as if he
was reading this report and telling mewhat he saw. It was described the
exact same within the report, asfar as the skull and the teeth and
the fillings. He could see itall and he remembered, and the fact

(28:22):
that he within the week, Ithink, said I'm going to go back
out and visit that area just tomake sure, and he did, and
he was like, m I rememberit like it was yesterday. It was
amazing to me to the point thatI had to gather the group together because
I knew and we got on azoom call so I could tell them because

(28:45):
I knew that they were going tohave the same reaction as me that it's
just too it's too much. Butit absolutely is and there's no way you
could make it up. The wildestimagination could not make up the twist and
turn Earns and some of these stories. So I just I'm like, well,
I just gotta go with it,because you know, you just cannot

(29:07):
make up all these connections that arehappening between these two cases. Since helping
to form the Finlay Creek Jindo TaskForce in twenty nineteen, Melinda had been
posting information about the case online,hoping someone would come forward. She had

(29:30):
been asking people who had lived inthe area for years if they remembered any
details that might help point to whothe Jaindo could be. I had maybe
one or two locals reach out saying, well, when I was in school

(29:51):
around that time, I remember soand so stepdaughter went missing, and I
would ask questions, Okay, whatwas her name? What was a family's
name. So they would say thesethings, but then could not give me
a single shred of information to goon to try to find out who that

(30:11):
person was. And I have gonethrough countless newspaper archives around potential missing women
from this area. I've asked myown parents, because they were in their
twenties at the time. I've askedyou know, other people who are in

(30:33):
my life who were alive at thetime, who remember hearing about the case,
but don't remember anybody going missing atthe time. And the Oregon State
Police did their due diligence at thetime, and we're not aware of anybody
in the immediate area who had gonemissing either, And so then they branched
out to you know, the Metroarea Portland, Idaho. Think one of

(31:00):
the furthest ruleouts that they got wasfrom Kentucky. So they were looking for
missing women, and you know,there was an attempt made to rule out
Patty as well, but it wasjust not done correctly, we don't think.

(31:22):
We noted in a previous episode thatafter the remains were discovered, Patty
Otto's parents flew to the crime labat Blue Mountain Community College in Pendleton,
Oregon to look at the clothes foundat the scene. When presented with the
braw and other pieces of garments,they didn't think what they saw was what
Patty was wearing when she vanished.But again, the woman in the grave

(31:45):
may have been wearing more than whatwas found at the scene, and the
shoes may not have belonged to her. Tom and Toots O'Malley both died more
than twenty years ago. Patty's sister, Alice said that not knowing what really
happened to her sister haunted them.But it did a lot to see my

(32:06):
parents go through. But they wentthrough, and we know we felt how
bad we felt because Patty was mybest friend at the time. It wasn't
just my sister that we did everythingtogether, But it has the hearts for
a parents losing a daughter not knowingyeah where she's at. And I know
that I still say to the stress, is my mom and dad died jong

(32:31):
Daddy was only sixty years old whenhe passed away and mom was only seventy,
And I just think all that stresshad a lot to do with it.
If the Finlay Creek Jando is theirdaughter, it means they lost a
grandchild along with Patty. But ifthe Jane Doo truly isn't their daughter,
so many questions remain. Who isshe and who killed her? Other than

(32:55):
the hippie women scene walking up RuckleRoad, we don't have any leads about
who the woman could be. Investigatorsworked with other law enforcement agencies to try
to identify her, but nothing pannedout. You've heard the Green River Killer
mentioned a couple of times in previousepisodes, but his victims were all found

(33:16):
about two hundred and fifty miles awayin Seattle, Washington's King County. At
the time, there were a coupleof men living closer to this area who
might have been capable of committing sucha crime. One of those men is

(33:43):
a person of interest in a numberof other unsolved murders in the area,
including three people who disappeared from Lewisand Idaho six years after Patty vanished.
Although we know who this potential suspectis, he's never been charged with murder,
so we won't be naming him.We'll just tell you that police are

(34:06):
aware of who he is. Theother person is Harry Hantman, who had
raped and murdered an eleven year oldgirl in Washington, d c. In
nineteen sixty nine. Then in nineteenseventy three, he escaped from the mental

(34:27):
institution where he had been confined.While free, for the next twenty years,
he lived in this part of thePacific Northwest under the assumed identity of
a dead man, Thomas Dorian,going by the name Dorian Hantman, dated
women, got married, and enrolledin classes at several Oregon colleges, including

(34:51):
Eastern Oregon State University in La Grandjust south of Finlay Creek. He was
even arrested for attempted kidnapping while usinghis alias, and authorities still didn't realize
who he was. In nineteen ninetythree, federal marshals finally caught up with

(35:12):
Handman after tracking the movements of hiswife. Bill Bonk is the US marshal
who led the operation to arrest thefugitive. Bonk had tracked Handman to an
off the grid cabin he owned inthe mountain town of Joseph, Oregon,
about forty miles east of Finlay Creek. The cabin was protected from outsiders like

(35:35):
a fortress and appeared to have beenoutfitted to hold a captive. This is
Bill Bonk talking about tracking Hamman's wife. We were in Joseph, Oregon,
and he determined that she had madean ATM withdaw in Walla Walla, Washington,
you know, north of pretty muchnorth at where we were at,

(35:58):
right, So we drove up thereand we kind of um hooked up with
the police. We were looking athotels looking for a Pacific car and they
knew what Hammond's wife was driving,and we're able to trace her movements to
Lewiston, Idaho. Somebody had spottedthe car, the Tapadera motor in and

(36:19):
so I called the Tapadera just tobe like, try to be discreet,
just because that's a long drive,right, And we're like, because she
still registered death And the manager said, yeah, she just paid for another
night. So we end up youknow, we drive there. I mean
it took us like two hours orum. And that's some hilly remember there,

(36:42):
there's some pretty hilly turvy road.Looking over the guards walf to U
imminent death. When we got intotown, I saw a blue cavalier kind
of drive up the road and Icalled nine one one said, hey,
you know, can you just puton APB at tatting noise? And Lewiston,
well, a detective saw the carand he calls in and says,

(37:04):
there's a woman and a dude witha beard and you know, with facial
hair or something like his Holy shit, Hantman had been exceedingly careful to conceal
his whereabouts. So Bonk was shockedto learn that he was with his wife
in Lewiston. Because everywhere we went, like when I went into that hotel
room at the Tapadera motor Um beforethe detective called, you know, there

(37:24):
was one soda canon the trash,one piece of dental floss. You know,
it's hard to you know, themanager said that they only saw one
person. Basically at that point,we had like eight deputy marshals. We
had two Idahost State troopers. Ithink ten Lewiston cops and just kind of
came in and the troopers blocked theroad and we just took him down the

(37:45):
Gunpoint and up in Hell's Canyon,you know, up along a for a
service road. He has this sixor seven acre parcel where he built his
cabin and then he puts up achainling fence around the whole property, well
not the whole property, it waskind of U shaped, but from the
road and then you know, downon both sides of his property. So
and then he had this footbridge thatwas lined with like animal skulls and stuff.

(38:07):
So after we arrested him and hisum, his wife, I mean
she called the cabin aushwoods in thewilderness. Aushwoods in the wilderness. You
know. When I went out therein twenty eighteen, I flew into Lewiston
and drove to Joseph, right,so you know, that's like about a

(38:30):
one hundred miles ninety five mile drive. I think it's down one twenty nine
and then into three in Oregon,one hundred miles. Four cars. I
saw four cars that whole trip,you know, and if you drove that
route, I mean we did.That's some of the most desolate, crazy
terrain, like I'm like, ohmy god, Like how many bodies could

(38:52):
be over any one of these switchbacks or something like, it's just so
isolated, it's just crazy. Nexttime on Still, I believe that she

(39:27):
did it herself or she definitely gotrid of the body, you know what
I mean. I mean she shehad something to do with this or did
it herself. There is no otherifanderbutt or any other way. Anyone with

(39:50):
information pertaining to the disappearance of PatriciaOtto should contact the Looston Police Department's tipline
at two zero eight to nine eightthree nine. Anyone with information pertaining to
the identity of the Finlay Creek JaneDoe, or other information related to that
case should contact the Union County DistrictAttorney at DA at Union hyphen County dot

(40:14):
org. If you, or anyoneyou know is a victim of domestic abuse,
please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotlineat eight hundred seven nine nine.
Safe Still is a production of TheReporter's Notebook and Grayson Shaw Media. You

(40:36):
can connect with us online at theReporter's Notebook dot com or via email at
info at the Reporter's Notebook dot com. Still was researched, written and produced
by Karen Shaw Anderson. Additional researchin script editing provided by Christine Hughes.

(41:00):
Original music by Smith Uosso. I'myour host and associate producer Gary Anderson.
Special thanks to everyone who graciously providedinterviews and help with our research. We
would specifically like to thank the advocatesfor Patricia Otto and the Finlay Creek Jindoe

(41:20):
Task Force. Like follow and subscribeto Still on your favorite podcast platform,
and follow us on Facebook or Twitterto join the conversation. Ezekiel thirty four
sixteen. I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the stray,

(41:40):
and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the week.