November 12, 2025 • 52 mins
The headlines say married sex is in decline, but the real story lives inside our homes: glowing screens, heavy schedules, chronic stress, and a quiet confusion about what “healthy intimacy” should look like now. We sit down with author and podcaster J Parker to unpack the data behind the so‑called sex recession and then move past the stats into practical fixes couples can actually use.
Special Guest J Parker from Hot Holy Humorous
Kate's guest episode on The Sex Chat For Christian Wives Podcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
We are Brad and Kate.
SPEAKER_02 (00:10):
In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've
survived both dark times andexperienced restoration.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
Now, as a licensed marriage counselor and
relationship coaches, we helpcouples to regain hope and joy.
SPEAKER_02 (00:23):
We invite you to journey with us as we are still
becoming one.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
Let's start the conversation.
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Still BecomingOne.
SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
Yeah, welcome back.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
We are so excited to have our good friend Jay on
today.
Jay Parker from Hot HolyHumorous and Christian Wives.
Sex Sex for Christian Wivespodcast.
Nope.
SPEAKER_04 (00:50):
Sex nope.
Sex Chat for Christian Wives.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
I was gonna get that right.
Sex Chat for Christian Wivespodcast, um, which had an
awesome, amazing guest on just acouple weeks ago.
So I'm biased.
Um, but Kate got a chance to touh chat with them a couple weeks
ago.
SPEAKER_03 (01:09):
For sure.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
And so uh, you know, honestly, I saw an article that
Jay you put out just a coupledays ago and weeks ago, and
went, wow, okay, we need to talkabout this.
Um, because it's just such animportant topic.
Um, and and just the title of ofyour article was why are we
(01:31):
having less sex?
And so I just reached out sincewe're friends and reached out
and said, Hey, let's let's haveyou on the podcast.
I'd love to chat about thisbecause I think it's such an
important topic.
So welcome.
I'm so glad you're here.
SPEAKER_04 (01:46):
Well, thank you for having me.
And I'm excited to talk aboutthis topic.
Uh, just so we can help peoplehave not just more sex, but
better sex.
That's always the goal.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
For sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:00):
So your article kind of starts by citing some studies
that say that basically over thelast what 20 years, uh the
percent of couples who reporthaving sex about once a week has
dropped pretty significantly.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Tell us tell us a little bit of what you found in
your research.
SPEAKER_04 (02:24):
Well, it's interesting because I have seen
a bunch of articles in the lastfew years talking about us being
in a quote unquote sexrecession.
And so I was kind of wonderingwhat that was about.
But a lot of times when I openedthose articles, they were
talking about singles not havingsex as much.
You know, uh, you know, for usChristians, it's like, well,
(02:45):
that's not necessarily a badthing.
Right.
Um, but this one was focused onmarried couples.
And what happened is tworesearchers uh connected with
the Institute for FamilyStudies, Brad Wilcox, whom some
people may have heard of, andGrant Bailey, they looked at the
general social survey data andthey looked at married adults.
(03:06):
And so they said that thatnumber fell from 59% of married
couples reporting sex weeklybetween 1996 and 2008, down to
49% between 2010 and 2024.
But when I looked at that andthought, okay, well, this is in
(03:26):
America, and how many couplesare in America and this and that
in the data, and it's likethat's like five million couples
not having sex weekly who youknow previously did.
SPEAKER_01 (03:39):
In that 10% drop.
SPEAKER_04 (03:41):
Yeah, that's a huge amount.
And uh, they gave some ideas ofwhy that might be happening or
one specific idea, and then Istarted thinking about all the
reasons I've heard and all thethings that I have studied over
the years and gave some othersuggestions.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
Okay.
Okay.
I mean, uh, there's a couple ofthings in here.
One, some people are gonna besitting here and going, huh,
that's really interesting thatit dropped over the the those
periods of time since 2010, it'sdropped significantly.
And some people are gonna benodding their heads and you
know, yep, I get it.
And other people, just to behonest, I think some other
(04:19):
people are gonna be surprisedthat you're saying almost 50% of
couples still have sex on aweekly basis.
SPEAKER_04 (04:26):
That's true.
That is very true.
There are a lot of couples outthere who are nowhere near that
amount.
Though it's interesting when I'masked how often couples should
have sex, I actually ran downall the data and stuff on this
for a presentation I did onsomething else.
And essentially, weekly is aboutwhat's right to kind of keep the
(04:50):
intimacy and the connectiongoing.
And so that's usually what I sayis that's the goal.
That doesn't mean that therearen't times in your marriage
where that's not what'shappening.
Right.
There's certainly been times inmy marriage where that's not
happening.
There are times in my marriagewhen we've been, you know,
three, four times a week, yayus.
But but the thing is just kindof as a general goal.
And so if there are over 50% ofcouples having sex weekly, to
(05:15):
me, that's still a little low.
SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
It's an it's just an interestingthing to, I mean, I feel like in
in the areas that we have beenhonored to serve, like this is
something we talk about a lot.
As you said, Jay, like you don'tgo anywhere and not get that
question of how often.
(05:39):
I feel like we get that everytime.
And um, you know, Brad and I tryto give a lot of freedom in that
answer, not that it has to looka certain way.
But then when we think aboutthat it's declining, it I
thought some of your um, youknow, potential reasons that of
things that could be impactingthat were really, really
(06:00):
interesting.
Some some were actuallypositive, I thought.
I'm not sure.
Like I thought the femaleempowerment, believe it or not,
is a really good thing thatwomen feel like they can say yes
or no, even though we don't wantto see that necessarily affect
it in the negative.
(06:21):
That is a cultural shift that Ithink needed to happen because
the church and society as awhole, that wasn't necessarily
what I would hope that thatleads to what you were saying,
Jay, of having better sex,right?
SPEAKER_04 (06:37):
Yeah, that was my goal in pointing that one out.
So I really thought about that.
I thought one of the reasonsyou're having less sex is
because some women have finallyrejected the idea that they owe
their husband sex whenever, youknow, whenever he wants it.
And or they're saying, Thisisn't working for me.
He's always coming and he'shaving a great time and he's
(06:58):
having orgasm and I am not, orI'm having pain.
And uh, we have a couple oftimes had people on our podcast
talking about sexual pain.
I am sure you've had clients whomention this, and sometimes the
husband doesn't even know thatshe has been through real pain
and discomfort because shedidn't feel like she could say
(07:18):
it.
She thought, well, I owe himthis and I just need to be here
and do it.
And as women feel more empoweredto say, no, God made sex for me
too, yeah, and this needs towork for me, then they can say
no.
No, I'm not doing sex like this.
SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (07:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
Which I I yeah, I agree with you.
I think that's actually a reallyhealthy reason for a decrease.
That would probably be one ofthe healthy ones on your list.
Tell us a little bit of what youfound or what you've thought is
some of the reasons that thestatistics are dropping.
SPEAKER_04 (07:58):
Well, I'll start with the reasons that the the
reason the researchers gave,which is um our electronic
devices, basically.
SPEAKER_03 (08:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (08:06):
And so they were they were saying two things are
happening there.
We are distracted by our phones,our TVs, streaming, social
media, whatever it is.
SPEAKER_03 (08:15):
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (08:15):
But they also said because we have these devices,
people are procrastinatingbedtime.
And since most people approachsex as something that happens at
the end of the day when you getin bed together, if you're
putting off going to bed, thenyou're even more tired to get
there and you just roll over andgo to sleep.
SPEAKER_00 (08:35):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (08:36):
So I pointed out sometimes what's happening on
those devices is uh moreproblematic maybe than the
device itself.
For instance, sure, there's justa lot of porn use.
As I've said a million times,when I was growing up, you had
to seek out porn.
And these days you have to blockout porn.
(08:57):
Right, it will come find you ifyou do not take measures to
avoid it.
Right.
And so a lot of people have beentrapped in that.
A lot of people grew up in anera when porn was considered sex
education.
SPEAKER_03 (09:13):
That's true.
SPEAKER_04 (09:14):
And so they are going there.
And for me, two things happenwith the porn porn, and maybe
y'all can speak to this withyour experience.
But what I've heard is that onone hand, you have some men who
will kind of get their sexualsatisfaction from porn, and so
they're less interested inhaving sex with their wife.
(09:35):
I deal with that quite a bit,actually, with the higher desire
wife community I have.
The other one that I hear a fairamount is that his uh the
intensity of what he wants, uhit becomes more perverse, more
insistent, and all of thatbecause it's fueled by porn, and
then he kind of voraciously goesafter his wife, typically
(09:58):
objectifying her, and sheunderstandably resists.
Or if she knows he's using porn,she's saying, I don't have sex
with you while you're usingporn.
SPEAKER_02 (10:08):
Right.
Understandably, yeah, right forsure.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Yeah, I think that that last part is something we
certainly do see.
I mean, it can certainly changeour mindsets of what it is that
we're seeking in in a variety ofways.
It can also um certainly put ina understandable couple issue
(10:33):
where the couple is going, hey,this isn't okay, and so then
aren't engaging in sex whilehe's trying to work through that
betrayal side of things.
So I I think that's entirelycorrect.
I think there's a lot of timeswhere I I always kind of
challenge guys on this because Ithink it is way too easy of an
(10:54):
answer to say I'm going to pornbecause my wife won't give me
sex.
That that doesn't actuallyanswer the question, right?
Because, and they all know it,is they're vastly different.
And there are many, many, manytimes where people will have sex
(11:15):
in a healthy, committedrelationship and then turn
around and use porn, right?
Like then the connection stillhappens.
So if it was, oh, I'm only doingthis because she won't have sex
with me, then that it thatdoesn't that doesn't actually
answer the question.
Um, because it's just not true.
So I think that's a too easy ofan answer.
(11:36):
So then we have to look at theother side of just because you
know we're not having sexdoesn't mean porn is the only
factor.
I think it can be a factor forsure, um, in in that formula.
Um many, many guys that I workwith would say they would be
(11:58):
very happy to have more sex withtheir wife, but that doesn't
necessarily solve their pornissue.
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (12:06):
So yeah, I would I would say as far as let me
clarify a little bit what I'msaying about, I don't think it
it kind of sometimes goes theother way as far as him finding
his satisfaction in porn.
I'm not saying that that'sthat's he's uh because he's not
getting sex.
In the case that I'm hearing isI'm hearing a lot of women who
are very willing, and whatthey're they're experiencing
(12:29):
sometimes is a relationship withan actual person and what it
requires to arouse her, to gothrough that whole process, to
be intimate, the vulnerability,all of those things that are
involved in a real life sexualrelationship is harder than just
(12:50):
going and taking care ofyourself in a few minutes.
Sure, sure.
And so some guys will just endup on that shortcut and um and
they get and they get used tothat, they get used to the the
uh consumer view of sex.
And so I go to porn and I getwhatever I want, and I don't
(13:12):
really have to work at it theway I have to work at it with my
wife.
SPEAKER_01 (13:15):
Right, right.
There's no threat of rejection,there's no threat of I did it
wrong, there's no threat of, youknow, and yeah, it is just
one-sided and easy.
SPEAKER_02 (13:26):
But you know what Jay was saying, I don't know
with the higher drive wife thatthe rejection is necessarily
there, although that canprobably still play a piece even
if it's you can feel rejectedeven if someone is receiving you
in some ways.
But but the whole um of it takeseffort, right?
(13:47):
It takes attunement, it takestime, it takes all of those
things.
And when you are just takingcare of yourself, that the all
of that is not present.
And so, yeah, I could see that.
That's that's an anotherinteresting piece that
definitely I could see playing apart of it.
(14:08):
Like it does take time and itdoes take effort.
And usually each person is verydifferent.
So that dance you have to do tofigure each other out, as you
said, to arouse each other, allof that is it is it is the way
God intended it, but it also istakes time.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
I just want to call out though, the I agree with all
that.
I totally agree with that.
I think there's some truth inthat, but I want to call out the
between the two things that wejust said, there's a little
danger that I would at leastwant to call out because I think
for a long time it's beenassumed, oh my goodness, if
we're not having sex, it mustmean that my husband's using
(14:48):
porn.
SPEAKER_03 (14:48):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:49):
And and I want to call out that that is not
necessarily the case.
There's a whole lot of otherreasons here and that we can't
oversimplify this and just say,oh, nope, you uh you aren't, so
he's gonna go get it somewhereelse, which leads to that
empowerment issue that we saidof you know, holding women
responsible because it's not,it's not their responsibility
(15:12):
alone.
SPEAKER_04 (15:14):
Yeah, there's a lot of benign reasons for people not
doing this.
I mean, even the the devices,the electronic devices, that can
be a very benign thing you'redoing.
You know, you can be watch, youcan be streaming the chosen, you
know.
Yeah, yeah, and uh, or whateveryou're doing.
And so, but it still isinterfering with your real life
(15:36):
relationships.
And so some of the other reasonsthat I put down is for instance
the parenting overload.
We hear this all the time frompeople.
And this is when I talk to ummom co-groups, one of the main
questions I get is isessentially how do we find time
with our overwhelming schedulewith kids?
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Yeah, yep.
And it's a great question.
I I saw something the other daybecause I was actually reading a
little bit about the culturalchange of parenting that had has
happened in the last 30, 40years, where you know, I
remember there was thisparenting thing that said you're
(16:16):
home from school, or certainlyin the summer, go out and play.
I don't want to see you untillunchtime, or I don't want to
see you until dinner, and justsending the kids out.
And parents' moms typically atthat point had tons of time to
do the laundry and do the thingsthat needed done without having
(16:37):
to chase a kid and be aroundthem 24-7 and watch everything
that they do, and that shiftedright since at least the 2000s.
It's been expected if your kidsare playing outside, there has
to be a parent watching them allthe time, right?
There has to be monitoring,there has to be this place, and
(16:57):
they're right, like then ittakes this thing of we have we
have no time to do anything thatneeds done, let alone to connect
with each other.
SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
I don't I you say like watching them all the time.
I think there's also acorrelation with the amount of
things that kids are allowed todo.
I mean, Brad and I have alwaysbeen outspoken about this.
When our kids started enteringthat phase of being old enough
to participate in differentthings, we certainly wanted that
(17:33):
for them.
We chose to have at that timewould have been three kids and
then eventually four.
So we made the decision veryquickly of like you get to do
one thing at a time.
SPEAKER_03 (17:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:44):
Because there's three of you.
So that's already three thingsthat dad and I have to figure
out how to get you to, how toall those kinds of things.
Um, and very few times we wouldmake exceptions to that, but we
really stuck to that on throughto high school unless they could
then drive themselves to themany different things.
Um, and I don't know about you,Brad, but I feel like that
(18:09):
protected a lot of our time.
And we did that even before ourmarriage was in a good space.
And I see a lot of parentscommitted to so much stuff,
which I get it.
It's fun and it's whatever, itgives you your community.
There's all aspects to it.
I don't know.
But for us, that was reallyimportant, and I think it really
(18:30):
helped us.
And I found we still had plentyof places to drive our kids to,
so it's not like we were, youknow, told our kids you can't do
anything.
It we were driving around quitea bit.
Yeah, we had to like work out aschedule every week of like
who's driving kids where.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
That's exhausting, right?
And you add that to your phone,that's your entertainment and
your distraction and yourdowntime.
Yeah, I understand why coupleshave left less time to connect
to it with each other.
SPEAKER_04 (18:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Part of this parenting overloadpiece is is also that a lot of
us don't have extended familynear.
But as you were talking about,okay, I'm a bit older than y'all
are, so I definitely rememberthe thing of you get home from
school, I had a snack, I watcheda show, and then it was like,
Goodbye, I'll see you when itthe lights go outside or
(19:24):
whatever.
And and I think back, and thereare hours that my parents did
not know where I was.
I mean, I was in theneighborhood, I had a bike and
that was it, but they reallydidn't know where I was.
But the thing about that is atthe time that there were not
many dual-income families aroundus, right?
And so when I rode through themy bike down the neighborhood or
(19:46):
whatever, I saw other people.
And like my mom would see otherkids and that.
So if I got into trouble, therewas somebody who would be like,
Where do you live?
Let's go over here.
That's not as true in ourneighborhoods these days.
Yes, and you also just don'thave the extended family near,
so you don't have the aunts, theuncles, the grandparents who are
helping you do that.
(20:08):
And it really is useful to haveother people you can rely on to
kind of care for your kids.
And even those things ofdividing out, there was a a uh
twin boys who played baseballwith our son.
We did the same thing, by theway, one activity at a time.
Yep.
And sometimes the seasons wouldoverlap and we'd allow that, but
(20:31):
other than that, it was oneactivity at a time.
But there were twin boys whoplayed on my son's baseball
team, and if the parentscouldn't make it, the
grandparents showed up.
SPEAKER_03 (20:41):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (20:41):
And so how how wonderful is that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
You have to have some of that support.
And I think so many familiesdon't.
SPEAKER_04 (20:52):
But we didn't have that when when we were raising
our kids, we didn't haveextended family nearby who could
be by.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
What did you guys do?
SPEAKER_04 (21:01):
How did you know that?
What did we do?
Yeah.
Well, we we I mean, there weretwo of us, and so we did you had
two kids, two of us.
So divide and conquer as much aspossible.
But there were even times whereone of us couldn't go because of
a job situation or this andthat.
And I know, I know there arethere are adults who fondly look
back and say things like, My dadnever missed a game.
(21:24):
And I just want to say, I missedsome games.
Yeah, and my kids okay.
And actually, my other son did awhole swim season where he was
like, Mom, I just want this tobe my thing.
And I was like, Okay.
And I think I showed up to onething.
SPEAKER_01 (21:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Well, when our kids did were old enough to do our
school sports teams, which wasgreat.
Um, we did we said we're doingwe will try to make it to all of
your home games.
That was our goal.
One of us or the two of us, butaway games, we very few times
did we go unless they wereactually super close to where
(22:04):
our school district is.
So, like we just said to thekids, like, it's really
important, we want to watch you,but this is what we're able to
commit to, right?
And I think the challenge isparents worry that that then
teaches your kid you're not apriority, but they need you at
other times too, not just atsporting events, right?
They need you when they've had arough day, when they've had a
(22:26):
really exciting day.
So good.
Like, and so I don't know, Bradand I just chose different
healthy boundaries.
We felt like they were healthy.
I'm not sure our kids couldprobably tell you their thoughts
on it, but I don't know.
I don't think going toeverything, being at micro at
every micro event is is theanswer.
(22:48):
I mean, we're not talking abouttheir big life-changing events,
we're talking about, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Yeah, little things.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
So I don't know.
I don't think that's the answer.
And I but I do wonder how muchthat is robbing people of yeah,
time in their marriage.
Yeah.
But also probably giving themthe excuse they may want to also
not be investing in theirmarriage.
Like I think that happens a lotas well.
We just throw ourselves into thekids and then we don't have to
(23:16):
think about connecting and allthat kind of stuff.
I don't know.
Some people very intentionallywant to.
I think sometimes people use itas an excuse too.
So I don't know.
SPEAKER_04 (23:29):
Yeah, I think I had someone when my kids were young
tried repeatedly to talk me intobeing room mom.
Oh and almost made it sound likeif you're not, if you're not
invested, if you're not there,then your kid's not gonna get
the education he should get, andyou're not gonna know what's
going on, and you're gonna be,you know, and I was just like, I
can't I cannot add one morething.
(23:50):
Yeah, and I also think, you knowwhat?
If the difference between mebeing able to have intimacy with
my husband and not is saying noto being room mom, you know
what?
I I think it's important for meto invest in my marriage so that
now I have a strong foundationfor those kids.
Correct.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (24:08):
Correct.
SPEAKER_04 (24:09):
I would agree.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
Yes, we actually just a couple of uh a month or
so ago interviewed one of ourdaughters on this of like what
was it like growing up in amarriage positive house and what
were the impacts?
And you know, she was honest,like there were times that we
knew that you two went away orwent out, and I was irritated
(24:30):
with that as a kid, but now Ican look back and go, oh yeah,
okay, that was okay.
Like it was fine, that wasprobably a good thing, right?
And uh, you know, it it is hard,it is a sacrifice to go.
I'm going to prioritize mymarriage, and that does impact
the kids, but I don't think it'sa negative impact.
(24:54):
I I think our kids need to knowthat they don't have to be first
all the time, right?
SPEAKER_04 (25:03):
Yes, that's so important.
I sometimes think the way peoplewill if you enroll your kids in
everything and you're but youknow, because of fear of missing
out, your kid's gonna miss out,and you have feel like you have
to be at everything and andyou're constantly there for your
kid, but then you're not reallyinvesting in your marriage,
right?
Then you're teaching your kidthat they're the center of the
(25:24):
universe, and you're alsotelling your spouse You're not,
yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
You know, one of the places that I noticed that it's
so simple, but it it's profoundis pickup time for kids' events.
It used to be, and I rememberthis, like it used to be I'd get
done practice and I'd call myparents and go, can you come
pick me up?
And I'd wait for 15 minutes,whatever, for them to come get
(25:54):
me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
Dude, they lived right next to the school.
You probably didn't even have towait 15 minutes.
My parents lived in the boonies.
I usually waited forever.
We went to the same school, butI did not grow up in a
neighborhood.
SPEAKER_01 (26:07):
The kids waited.
That's the key, right?
We waited for them.
Now it's if you're not thereright when something ends and
they won't necessarily tell youwhen it ends, then you're being
a bad parent and you're imposingon somebody else.
So you'd better get there 20minutes early and wait.
SPEAKER_02 (26:26):
Oh, the amount of time parents are sitting and
waiting.
Yeah.
No, it's true.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
It just shows the priority shift.
SPEAKER_04 (26:34):
Yeah, I this is gonna make me feel like such a
bad parent.
Someone's gonna laugh at this,though, out there.
So there would be moms in theelementary school line who would
get there 30 minutes beforeschool ended so that they could
be at the very beginning andpick their kids up right away.
And I remember I and I lived inthe same neighborhood as our
thing, but I remember thinkingnow I'm waiting until school
(26:56):
ends, and then I'm going,because you know what?
That's when the line moves,right?
Seriously.
When your kid is in the lastthird of being picked up, the
line moves.
SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
Yeah.
Well, the only time we did it,we made our kids rode the bus.
The only time we did it is likedoctor's appointment or
something, and then you need tobe.
SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
And I was like, these people are they're they're
just well they're giving so I'mlike, wow, their energy time to
their kids and so early, yes.
It was yeah, it's not goingsomewhere else.
SPEAKER_04 (27:27):
So some some people I know did this, and they also
said that was like their time togo sit there and do meditation
or read or something.
That's fine.
If that's better than me,something they carved out.
But if the idea was gonna go,some of these were just like
people just sitting in their carand like talking to other moms
and this and that.
I'm thinking, yeah, do you havenothing else to do?
Because I can think of all kindsof things to do.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
So, one of the other things that you mentioned in the
article is the increased stress.
SPEAKER_04 (27:55):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
I I mean, I think we all know it.
We feel the increased stress,like we talk about it.
How do you see that impactingcouples and certainly impacting
sex?
SPEAKER_04 (28:09):
Okay, well, it's currently impacting me.
I will say that in everymarriage.
Um, before we got on, I wastelling you some of the stress
uh stressors in my life.
I've got um some couple offamily members with health
issues.
Uh, my son recently moved in,which has been great.
He's uh doing really well incollege, but that's been a
(28:31):
change.
Yeah.
And one of my closest friends ishaving marital difficulty.
So all these things going onhave just taken a lot of
attention and added a lot ofstress.
But your stress may lookdifferent out there.
So, whatever it is, part of thatis that you just don't have the
same energy and focus that youneed.
(28:54):
And a lot of people will say,well, sex is a stress reliever.
And it's like, yes, that'sentirely true.
But also, you have to be able toget there to get the relief.
And if your attention has beendrawn to all these other things,
and also cortisol is the stresshormone, and cortisol is known
to dampen sexual interest.
SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
I think that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (29:19):
Yeah.
Well, because your body issaying this isn't a priority
right now because all ofwhatever is going on, that's how
God designed our bodies.
But I do think in this climateof just life and all different
kinds of things, sometimes ourbody is playing tricks on us.
(29:39):
Sometimes, like we've got tolearn to bring it down.
Sometimes you really are in thatspace, and it's okay that it's
just not an option.
SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
I but I think it's so interesting in just the
timing, and I I think a lot ofpeople think, oh, well, stress
is a stress or sex is a stressreliever.
So we should be having more ifwe're stressed, but it like just
recognizing that that's not howyour body works, that desire is
going to be lower because ofthat.
SPEAKER_04 (30:12):
Yeah, I think Kate's so right that it's your your
biology is basically saying thisis not the priority now.
And and it's not distinguishingwhat kind of stress your body
just feels stress and it says,okay, we need to focus on the
things that are causing youstress.
Well, you know, that's entirelyreasonable if you're if you're
way back when and you're yourstress is there's a war going
(30:36):
on, or you know, there is anillness or whatever.
That's entirely reasonable.
We, however, have createdoftentimes an atmosphere of
chronic stress.
And we, you know, things likeyou finish your job and you
bring a lot of it home with youinstead of being able to say,
(30:57):
you know, that's done, and nowI'm I'm coming home and I'm just
gonna let that go.
Yeah.
Or, you know, going online andlooking at the news from all
over the world can be sostressful.
And it used to be you just knewwhat was going on in your
community, and maybe you'd heara rumor about something going on
(31:18):
way far away, but you reallyknew you couldn't do anything
about that.
Now we're inundated with this.
And I've heard this sometimessaid as um, you we get panicked
that someone somewhere else isliving wrong.
And it's like, okay.
Always the case.
Yeah.
It's always the case, but youknow what?
(31:39):
Maybe the the answer is not tostress so much, but just to pray
and let go.
Um, but just wherever we'rebringing in stress that maybe we
don't need to have, we shouldlook at our lives and ask some
questions of, you know, is thisuh is this serving me?
Is this something I really needto be going through, or is there
something I can let go so that Ican be more present in the
(32:01):
moment with my spouse and withmy life?
SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
I think too, you know, we work with a lot of
clients on self-care, right?
And there's a correlation withunderstanding your story and
realizing as children we weredoing the best to survive and do
as well as we could in ourfamilies, but learning how to
take care of yourself isn'tusually something that is
(32:28):
cultivated.
And so a lot of times we'retrying to bring that back in,
like understanding your body,what you feel, and how do you
take care of it?
Because I think a lot of peoplegrew up and the stress just
piles and piles and piles, andthey don't actually know how to
regulate their body, which ishard.
I'm not saying that it's uh aneasy journey, but I also think
(32:51):
we all have to recognize, youknow, you said like that pray
and let it go.
I think because sometimes peopledon't even have a clue how to
let it go.
SPEAKER_03 (33:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
And so talking about, you know, how do you
identify what you feel in yourbody, then how do you take care
of that in a healthy, positiveway, have good, healthy stress
release, um, I think is vital.
I think the other thing that Iknow Brad and I talked about a
long time ago.
Well, it feels like a long timeago, but when we were trying to
(33:25):
do a lot of that, our home wasvery difficult, stressful, a lot
of trauma just going on.
Um Brad and I had talks aboutokay, is it okay that sex
doesn't look quite asadventurous as I think sometimes
also the Christian community canput a lot of pressure on people
(33:47):
that it like because God createdit is wonderful, we should
always be engaging in thisreally adventurous, amazing,
whatever that looks like for youas a couple.
Brad and I had to have theconversation because not only
was our home stressful, butthey're all young adults or
teenagers.
So there's not a lot of timethat kiddos, you know, that
(34:09):
you're not, you don't want to beblatant about it, all of these
kinds of things.
And we said, maybe sex is justcomfort right now.
And maybe a lot of times morethan not, it looks the same
every time we engage, if thatmakes sense.
Um, not a lot of effort onwearing something sexy or doing
all of this.
(34:30):
Like, right, we found a rhythmthat worked for us in what that
looked like, but we were honestabout it and had the
conversation for right now.
Yeah, this is like all we haveto give when we come here.
And it still was a real, I don'tknow, Brad, you can speak from
your perspective.
Um, I think I was anxious aboutthat, that that would not be
(34:52):
enough or okay.
But I was really thankful thatit seemed like you were able to
meet me in that place.
Um, and so I think sometimesowning that when it's really
stressful, it doesn't have tolook like the most amazing times
where you've spent an hourpreparing and all of this stuff
when life has really hard thingsgoing on.
SPEAKER_03 (35:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:14):
I don't know.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_04 (35:16):
I think that's so good.
I'll just drop that in beforeBrad says anything.
SPEAKER_01 (35:20):
Uh no, I I think you hate this analogy, but No, are
you gonna bring out the menuanalogy?
Yes, we have talked about thatsometimes sex is fast food,
sometimes it's fine dining, andsometimes it's the middle of the
road restaurant that is you knowsomewhere in between.
And I think when things arestressful, there's not a problem
(35:44):
that you skip fine dining for awhile.
SPEAKER_04 (35:46):
Yeah.
There you go.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
It it it is, and and it's healthy and it's good, and
there's there's yes, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (35:58):
We just didn't have the mental capacity.
I know I didn't for the finedining very often.
And to me, fine dining when youhave a bunch of people in your
home who can understand what'sgoing on.
It's weird.
It's weird, and so it the onlytime it could happen would be
late at night, and that justBrad and I were done at that
point, right?
So, like I think also justhonoring what can it look like
(36:23):
in a positive way that you bothare understanding and not have
all this pressure attached toit.
SPEAKER_04 (36:30):
But I think you also have to take some steps.
It's interesting you're sayingthat people don't know what it
looks like to let go.
And I laughed at myself at evensaying it that way because
that's so true.
It is that people do need tofigure out how to be in the
moment despite some stuff goingon.
And for me, you're right, it'snot like you just let it go,
(36:52):
boom, and I just dropped it andit's done.
In fact, years back, um, you'regonna laugh at this.
What happened actually is wewere uh supposed to meet up with
Paul and Lori Byrley for lunch,and we were running late, and I
was not happy that we wererunning late, and I was very
worried.
And so we were on the way, andhe's driving, and he said, Don't
(37:15):
worry.
And I and he was saying asusual, stop worrying, don't
worry, blah, blah, blah.
And I said, You don't, I don'tliterally have no idea how to
make that happen.
I said, You say that.
I said, I have no idea.
I said, What happens is it'slike I have these pop-up boxes,
you know, the pop-up windows.
And if I try to click it down,it just three more pop-up, you
(37:38):
know, and it just that's what itis.
And so I can be doing it, but Ican't, I can't catch up.
I can't just stop worrying.
And so I think as far as the letit go, I think it really isn't
just you let it go.
It's what I learned is that Ineeded to face that the stress
and say, this is reallystressing me out.
And also acknowledge that.
(38:00):
Yeah.
And then say, okay, what isstressing me out?
What can I do about it?
What can I not do about it?
What's the worst thing thatcould happen here?
What is I needed to processthrough that whole stress.
And for me, some of that comesas part of the prayer with God.
Sure.
Is that I'm processing throughall that stress.
And then a lot of times Irealize I can't get rid of it
(38:23):
all.
Some of it's gonna remain, andthat's okay.
But I can take what I can off myplate.
And then when I come with myhusband, I can say, you know
what?
When when we leave, I'm gonnabasically try to set this down
here.
And I know when we're done, I'mgonna have to pick it back up.
SPEAKER_02 (38:42):
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_04 (38:44):
But I can set it down for time, I can focus on
him, I can focus on us.
We can have the sexual intimacy,and that will also give me some
more energy, strength, umsupport.
Yeah, you know, all thosefeelings to be able to then pick
that back up and continue on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:04):
I think that's really an important way of
dealing with that stress, thatwe can't just turn it off.
We can't say, okay, stopstressing now.
Right.
And I think a lot of guys needto hear that message because we
guys tend to be a little bitmore compartmentalized in some
of that thinking and can justkind of go, okay, I'm gonna turn
(39:26):
that off.
Now, that doesn't mean stressdoesn't impact us.
It does, but there does tend tobe a little less of the I'm
worried about the grocery listwhile I'm supposed to be sitting
with my wife, you know, kind ofthing.
Like there's a little less ofthat kind of intrusive for many
(39:47):
men.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
You pick the grocery list.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
I I was just thinking of things that pop in
your head, you know, whileyou're trying to be with the
ever pop in your head?
unknown (39:58):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (39:59):
Kids.
That's the thing that I hearmost women say is the most
intrusive.
SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
It's kids.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:06):
Yeah.
That must be nice to not havethose intrusive thoughts.
SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
I I don't want to say that they never happen.
They they do.
And I think I think that's wherestress really does impact men,
that all of a sudden it'sthey're thinking about job or
the chores that they have to door the thing, like there is that
place where that's becomingintrusive.
And I think that is pushing someof that this decrease, even in
(40:34):
that.
So I I I'm curious as we're kindof wrapping this up, is what's
the fix for this?
Like, if you're sitting hererecognizing, wow, yeah, our our
rate of sexual intimacy hasdecreased, one, is that a
problem?
And two, what do we do aboutthat?
SPEAKER_02 (40:55):
Great question.
I'll let Julie start.
SPEAKER_04 (40:58):
Well, yeah, I mean, I do think it's good to ask, is
that a problem?
For instance, we mentioned inthe female empowerment thing,
maybe you were having sex fivetimes a week because you thought
you had to have sex every timeyou wanted to, and now you're
down to once or twice a week,and the sex is better and good
for you.
Yeah.
You know, that's a so that's nota problem.
That's an improvement.
(41:19):
Uh, if now you're having qualitysex.
But on some of these others,that obviously, you know, if the
issue is pornography, you needto be addressing that.
And I know that AldrichMinistries is a great place to
come and get help with that.
Um, but that's something thatcertainly needs to be addressed
immediately.
Some of these other things we'vetalked a little bit about,
(41:40):
things you can do to move stressoff your plate.
But I think the core issue iskind of asking the why.
Is this a rough season?
Is this an improvement?
Is there something deeper goingon?
Maybe we're having less sexbecause the sexual trauma from
my childhood has you know comeback up and is, you know, and
(42:02):
that needs to be addressed.
So even as we talk about thesefive million couples or the 10%
drop, they haven't all droppedfor the same reason.
unknown (42:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (42:14):
They're all have their own stories.
Yes.
And so you have to ask what yourown story is so that you know
what the right next step is.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Do you think that that drop is really one person
in the couple dropping, or doyou feel like it is both?
Or a mix?
SPEAKER_04 (42:36):
Yes.
That's not helpful, is it?
I d I don't know.
I think that it's a little ofboth.
I think that there are a lot ofcouples that are just not having
sex as much as they want tobecause life is busy, because
they're, you know, they're notcommunicating as much, they're
not getting date nights, they'renot getting connection time to
feel like they can be together.
(42:56):
And then that's a couple issue.
SPEAKER_03 (42:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (42:58):
I certainly think the imp the explosion of
pornography usually affects onespouse more than the other.
That's that's what I've seen.
And I'm not, well, of course itaffects the mate, but I'm saying
it's usually one person of thetwo who's having a major porn
issue.
unknown (43:18):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (43:19):
Right.
Well, and then the betrayal canalso greatly impact that.
Um, yes, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (43:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I think, you know, obviouslythere's an interesting other
side here that I think sometimesthe decrease comes out of, you
know, we're both stressed, we'reboth in a busy season.
Yep, we understand this, but Ithink a lot of times I guess one
(43:47):
of the things I saw in this iswow, that's a lot more couples
that somebody's walking aroundwith some frustration.
That my spouse wants a lot lesssex than I do.
And that that tension can becomea conflict point.
(44:09):
It can be a something thatcreates a lot of challenge for
couples.
SPEAKER_04 (44:17):
Yeah, I think it's been very interesting to hear
how a higher desire spouse and alower desire spouse explain
their experiences because bothof them have, I think both of
them have frustration, but it'sdifferent.
The lower desire often feelslike they are pressured, yeah,
or they are objectified, or theyare just not valued for who they
(44:42):
are, but more for their sexualselves.
And in turn, the higher desirespouse often feels that they are
not valued fully because theirsexual selves are not part of
that.
Yes.
And they feel um they feellonely a lot of times, honestly.
SPEAKER_03 (45:02):
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_04 (45:04):
Yeah.
So both of them are goingthrough some hardship that, you
know, kind of working throughthat those differences, that gap
would really help both of them.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (45:16):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (45:17):
Yeah.
And yes, I think you're spot on.
I think both are dissatisfied,but for different reasons.
Um I think that's actuallyimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (45:29):
Both, I always said it, both feel very broken for
very different reasons.
Right?
Because neither one, I mean,there may be truth in how they
like say, oh, they may pointfingers in the conflicts, but
the reality is inside both ofthem feel, what the heck's wrong
(45:50):
with me?
Why don't I want it more?
Why don't I want it less?
Why do I always write?
Like, why does the world tell meit should be this way and it's
not?
Like there are a lot of Ireflections going on inside.
Well, reflections is a niceword, it's probably contempt.
Um, that I think people need torecognize it's not what's coming
out, but that is often what iswhat is happening on the
(46:15):
internal.
Um, and I think it's importantthat we honor that that's there,
that's there for a reason.
Um it that message didn'tnecessarily come from sexual
content as a young adult or ateenager, but it comes from
something.
Um, it's reflective of otherthings you feel in life about
different things.
(46:35):
And so it's important to honorthat and understand where it
comes from.
SPEAKER_01 (46:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:41):
To be able to move in a different space and not
have that keep chasing you.
SPEAKER_01 (46:47):
I I think that sexual contempt thing is a is a
really big part of this, right?
There's a place where both sidesare probably feeling some loss
in in this space.
SPEAKER_04 (47:02):
For sure.
You know, I think of it as thehigher desire wife or higher
desire wife, higher desirespouse.
You can tell who I usually workwith.
The higher desire spouse oftenfeels like, why don't you want
me?
Yes.
And the lower desire spousefeels like, why do you want me
only for that?
SPEAKER_01 (47:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (47:19):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (47:20):
100%.
And we hear that dynamic all thetime.
And then it sounds like theanswer is, well, if you just
want me for, you know,connection and let's cuddle and
have other things going on,which is fantastic, those are
really important, then thehigher desire wife or higher
(47:44):
desire spouse ends up feelinglike I I don't want to say used,
I think it feels lost in that aswell.
Of like, yes, we can have lotsof connection, but if it doesn't
lead to sexual intimacy, it'slike, wait a minute, where
where's that going?
(48:04):
So I can feel that side.
SPEAKER_04 (48:06):
Both of them are feeling like there are parts,
there are parts of themselvesthat the spouse is not
accepting.
SPEAKER_01 (48:13):
Yes, that's a good way to put it.
SPEAKER_04 (48:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
So I I mean, obviously, I think what you're
raising is a a study that'sshowing there should be lots of
conversation going on aboutfrequency and that couples
should be having a conversationof like, hey, how do you feel
about our sexual frequency?
And go, is it something that weshould work on?
(48:40):
Is it something that we shouldmove towards each other on?
SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
But I think you need to remember that the three of us
have worked really hard onmaking that safe.
Yes.
Right?
And it has to be a conversationthat we can sit and hear the
other person and honor it, evenif we're sitting there thinking
I would like something differentand we need to meet in the
middle.
Like the goal isn't that youjust get to stay stuck where you
(49:07):
are and I get to stay stuckwhere I am.
We want to meet in the middle,but many times I know when we
work with couples, thatconversation is not safe to have
because it feels like one personis going to, well, I shouldn't
say one person, each person isgonna do their own thing,
whether one is sort of umwanting to really like be
aggressive about theconversation and one is shutting
(49:30):
down, or like it it is a hardconversation to have because
they've tried to have it beforeand it doesn't hasn't gone well
in the past.
Yes.
So the biggest thing I canencourage you, which is
difficult because you're goingto have to calm down what's
going inside of your body,either calm it down, or you're
gonna have to tell it not toshut down.
I need to listen, I need tohear, I need to understand, not
(49:53):
just be listening to respondwith my side of what's
happening.
SPEAKER_03 (49:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (49:58):
I love what you said on our podcast, Kate, about just
being curious.
And I think that attitude ofjust being curious can change
everything.
And um, and just really, yeah,not trying to think about how am
I gonna respond and what do Iwant, but try to understand.
We talked about understandingthe why as a couple.
(50:18):
Try to understand your spouse'swhy.
Yep.
Why are they wanting more sex?
Why are they wanting less sex?
Yes, why are they saying thatthe quality of sex is not
working for them?
SPEAKER_01 (50:31):
So important.
Yep, so important, right.
And and it is not just onething.
Um, and there's not just oneanswer to that, and I think it
is an important conversation,and more people need to be
willing to have it.
And I know it's really hard.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Wow, well, Jay, I so appreciateyou uh coming on and letting us
(50:55):
talk about this so importanttopic.
I'm sure it's gonna bring lotsof questions.
Where can people find you?
SPEAKER_04 (51:03):
Well, they can find everything about me pretty much
at one place,hotholyhumorous.com.
And that humorous is spelled theAmerican way, not the British
Canadian way with that extra wedon't need that you.
So hotholyhumorous.com, and youcan actually find information
there about our podcast as well,my Higher Desire Wives
(51:26):
community, my books, just allkinds of stuff there.
SPEAKER_01 (51:31):
And we we need a lot of couples to uh hear material
in the past, and I know there'sa lot of people who are getting
a lot of help and encouragement.
SPEAKER_04 (51:42):
Yeah.
And I I really encourage youraudience if you have not
listened to Kate's appearance onour sex chat for Christian
Wives.
Uh you can find that episode onanywhere you can find podcasts.
SPEAKER_01 (51:54):
Yeah, we'll put a link in the uh show notes.
Well, we appreciate you comingand uh joining us on Still
Becoming One.
Until next time, I'm Brad DoubleTurch.
SPEAKER_02 (52:07):
And I'm Kate DoubleTurch, be kind and take
care of each other.
SPEAKER_01 (52:11):
Awesome.
Well, thank you, Jay.
SPEAKER_00 (52:19):
Still Becoming One is a production of Alchich
Ministries.
For more information about Bradand Kate's coaching ministries,
courses, and speakingopportunities, you can find us
at Aldrich Ministries.com.
For podcast show notes and linksto resources in all of our
social media, be sure to visitus at still becoming one.com.
(52:41):
And don't forget to like thisepisode wherever you get your
podcasts.
And be sure to follow us tocontinue your journey on Still
Becoming One.
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
We are Brad and Kate.
SPEAKER_02 (00:10):
In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've
survived both dark times andexperienced restoration.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
Now, as a licensed marriage counselor and
relationship coaches, we helpcouples to regain hope and joy.
SPEAKER_02 (00:23):
We invite you to journey with us as we are still
becoming one.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
Let's start the conversation.
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Still BecomingOne.
SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
Yeah, welcome back.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
We are so excited to have our good friend Jay on
today.
Jay Parker from Hot HolyHumorous and Christian Wives.
Sex Sex for Christian Wivespodcast.
Nope.
SPEAKER_04 (00:50):
Sex nope.
Sex Chat for Christian Wives.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
I was gonna get that right.
Sex Chat for Christian Wivespodcast, um, which had an
awesome, amazing guest on just acouple weeks ago.
So I'm biased.
Um, but Kate got a chance to touh chat with them a couple weeks
ago.
SPEAKER_03 (01:09):
For sure.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
And so uh, you know, honestly, I saw an article that
Jay you put out just a coupledays ago and weeks ago, and
went, wow, okay, we need to talkabout this.
Um, because it's just such animportant topic.
Um, and and just the title of ofyour article was why are we
(01:31):
having less sex?
And so I just reached out sincewe're friends and reached out
and said, Hey, let's let's haveyou on the podcast.
I'd love to chat about thisbecause I think it's such an
important topic.
So welcome.
I'm so glad you're here.
SPEAKER_04 (01:46):
Well, thank you for having me.
And I'm excited to talk aboutthis topic.
Uh, just so we can help peoplehave not just more sex, but
better sex.
That's always the goal.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
For sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:00):
So your article kind of starts by citing some studies
that say that basically over thelast what 20 years, uh the
percent of couples who reporthaving sex about once a week has
dropped pretty significantly.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Tell us tell us a little bit of what you found in
your research.
SPEAKER_04 (02:24):
Well, it's interesting because I have seen
a bunch of articles in the lastfew years talking about us being
in a quote unquote sexrecession.
And so I was kind of wonderingwhat that was about.
But a lot of times when I openedthose articles, they were
talking about singles not havingsex as much.
You know, uh, you know, for usChristians, it's like, well,
(02:45):
that's not necessarily a badthing.
Right.
Um, but this one was focused onmarried couples.
And what happened is tworesearchers uh connected with
the Institute for FamilyStudies, Brad Wilcox, whom some
people may have heard of, andGrant Bailey, they looked at the
general social survey data andthey looked at married adults.
(03:06):
And so they said that thatnumber fell from 59% of married
couples reporting sex weeklybetween 1996 and 2008, down to
49% between 2010 and 2024.
But when I looked at that andthought, okay, well, this is in
(03:26):
America, and how many couplesare in America and this and that
in the data, and it's likethat's like five million couples
not having sex weekly who youknow previously did.
SPEAKER_01 (03:39):
In that 10% drop.
SPEAKER_04 (03:41):
Yeah, that's a huge amount.
And uh, they gave some ideas ofwhy that might be happening or
one specific idea, and then Istarted thinking about all the
reasons I've heard and all thethings that I have studied over
the years and gave some othersuggestions.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
Okay.
Okay.
I mean, uh, there's a couple ofthings in here.
One, some people are gonna besitting here and going, huh,
that's really interesting thatit dropped over the the those
periods of time since 2010, it'sdropped significantly.
And some people are gonna benodding their heads and you
know, yep, I get it.
And other people, just to behonest, I think some other
(04:19):
people are gonna be surprisedthat you're saying almost 50% of
couples still have sex on aweekly basis.
SPEAKER_04 (04:26):
That's true.
That is very true.
There are a lot of couples outthere who are nowhere near that
amount.
Though it's interesting when I'masked how often couples should
have sex, I actually ran downall the data and stuff on this
for a presentation I did onsomething else.
And essentially, weekly is aboutwhat's right to kind of keep the
(04:50):
intimacy and the connectiongoing.
And so that's usually what I sayis that's the goal.
That doesn't mean that therearen't times in your marriage
where that's not what'shappening.
Right.
There's certainly been times inmy marriage where that's not
happening.
There are times in my marriagewhen we've been, you know,
three, four times a week, yayus.
But but the thing is just kindof as a general goal.
And so if there are over 50% ofcouples having sex weekly, to
(05:15):
me, that's still a little low.
SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
It's an it's just an interestingthing to, I mean, I feel like in
in the areas that we have beenhonored to serve, like this is
something we talk about a lot.
As you said, Jay, like you don'tgo anywhere and not get that
question of how often.
(05:39):
I feel like we get that everytime.
And um, you know, Brad and I tryto give a lot of freedom in that
answer, not that it has to looka certain way.
But then when we think aboutthat it's declining, it I
thought some of your um, youknow, potential reasons that of
things that could be impactingthat were really, really
(06:00):
interesting.
Some some were actuallypositive, I thought.
I'm not sure.
Like I thought the femaleempowerment, believe it or not,
is a really good thing thatwomen feel like they can say yes
or no, even though we don't wantto see that necessarily affect
it in the negative.
(06:21):
That is a cultural shift that Ithink needed to happen because
the church and society as awhole, that wasn't necessarily
what I would hope that thatleads to what you were saying,
Jay, of having better sex,right?
SPEAKER_04 (06:37):
Yeah, that was my goal in pointing that one out.
So I really thought about that.
I thought one of the reasonsyou're having less sex is
because some women have finallyrejected the idea that they owe
their husband sex whenever, youknow, whenever he wants it.
And or they're saying, Thisisn't working for me.
He's always coming and he'shaving a great time and he's
(06:58):
having orgasm and I am not, orI'm having pain.
And uh, we have a couple oftimes had people on our podcast
talking about sexual pain.
I am sure you've had clients whomention this, and sometimes the
husband doesn't even know thatshe has been through real pain
and discomfort because shedidn't feel like she could say
(07:18):
it.
She thought, well, I owe himthis and I just need to be here
and do it.
And as women feel more empoweredto say, no, God made sex for me
too, yeah, and this needs towork for me, then they can say
no.
No, I'm not doing sex like this.
SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (07:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
Which I I yeah, I agree with you.
I think that's actually a reallyhealthy reason for a decrease.
That would probably be one ofthe healthy ones on your list.
Tell us a little bit of what youfound or what you've thought is
some of the reasons that thestatistics are dropping.
SPEAKER_04 (07:58):
Well, I'll start with the reasons that the the
reason the researchers gave,which is um our electronic
devices, basically.
SPEAKER_03 (08:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (08:06):
And so they were they were saying two things are
happening there.
We are distracted by our phones,our TVs, streaming, social
media, whatever it is.
SPEAKER_03 (08:15):
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (08:15):
But they also said because we have these devices,
people are procrastinatingbedtime.
And since most people approachsex as something that happens at
the end of the day when you getin bed together, if you're
putting off going to bed, thenyou're even more tired to get
there and you just roll over andgo to sleep.
SPEAKER_00 (08:35):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (08:36):
So I pointed out sometimes what's happening on
those devices is uh moreproblematic maybe than the
device itself.
For instance, sure, there's justa lot of porn use.
As I've said a million times,when I was growing up, you had
to seek out porn.
And these days you have to blockout porn.
(08:57):
Right, it will come find you ifyou do not take measures to
avoid it.
Right.
And so a lot of people have beentrapped in that.
A lot of people grew up in anera when porn was considered sex
education.
SPEAKER_03 (09:13):
That's true.
SPEAKER_04 (09:14):
And so they are going there.
And for me, two things happenwith the porn porn, and maybe
y'all can speak to this withyour experience.
But what I've heard is that onone hand, you have some men who
will kind of get their sexualsatisfaction from porn, and so
they're less interested inhaving sex with their wife.
(09:35):
I deal with that quite a bit,actually, with the higher desire
wife community I have.
The other one that I hear a fairamount is that his uh the
intensity of what he wants, uhit becomes more perverse, more
insistent, and all of thatbecause it's fueled by porn, and
then he kind of voraciously goesafter his wife, typically
(09:58):
objectifying her, and sheunderstandably resists.
Or if she knows he's using porn,she's saying, I don't have sex
with you while you're usingporn.
SPEAKER_02 (10:08):
Right.
Understandably, yeah, right forsure.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Yeah, I think that that last part is something we
certainly do see.
I mean, it can certainly changeour mindsets of what it is that
we're seeking in in a variety ofways.
It can also um certainly put ina understandable couple issue
(10:33):
where the couple is going, hey,this isn't okay, and so then
aren't engaging in sex whilehe's trying to work through that
betrayal side of things.
So I I think that's entirelycorrect.
I think there's a lot of timeswhere I I always kind of
challenge guys on this because Ithink it is way too easy of an
(10:54):
answer to say I'm going to pornbecause my wife won't give me
sex.
That that doesn't actuallyanswer the question, right?
Because, and they all know it,is they're vastly different.
And there are many, many, manytimes where people will have sex
(11:15):
in a healthy, committedrelationship and then turn
around and use porn, right?
Like then the connection stillhappens.
So if it was, oh, I'm only doingthis because she won't have sex
with me, then that it thatdoesn't that doesn't actually
answer the question.
Um, because it's just not true.
So I think that's a too easy ofan answer.
(11:36):
So then we have to look at theother side of just because you
know we're not having sexdoesn't mean porn is the only
factor.
I think it can be a factor forsure, um, in in that formula.
Um many, many guys that I workwith would say they would be
(11:58):
very happy to have more sex withtheir wife, but that doesn't
necessarily solve their pornissue.
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (12:06):
So yeah, I would I would say as far as let me
clarify a little bit what I'msaying about, I don't think it
it kind of sometimes goes theother way as far as him finding
his satisfaction in porn.
I'm not saying that that'sthat's he's uh because he's not
getting sex.
In the case that I'm hearing isI'm hearing a lot of women who
are very willing, and whatthey're they're experiencing
(12:29):
sometimes is a relationship withan actual person and what it
requires to arouse her, to gothrough that whole process, to
be intimate, the vulnerability,all of those things that are
involved in a real life sexualrelationship is harder than just
(12:50):
going and taking care ofyourself in a few minutes.
Sure, sure.
And so some guys will just endup on that shortcut and um and
they get and they get used tothat, they get used to the the
uh consumer view of sex.
And so I go to porn and I getwhatever I want, and I don't
(13:12):
really have to work at it theway I have to work at it with my
wife.
SPEAKER_01 (13:15):
Right, right.
There's no threat of rejection,there's no threat of I did it
wrong, there's no threat of, youknow, and yeah, it is just
one-sided and easy.
SPEAKER_02 (13:26):
But you know what Jay was saying, I don't know
with the higher drive wife thatthe rejection is necessarily
there, although that canprobably still play a piece even
if it's you can feel rejectedeven if someone is receiving you
in some ways.
But but the whole um of it takeseffort, right?
(13:47):
It takes attunement, it takestime, it takes all of those
things.
And when you are just takingcare of yourself, that the all
of that is not present.
And so, yeah, I could see that.
That's that's an anotherinteresting piece that
definitely I could see playing apart of it.
(14:08):
Like it does take time and itdoes take effort.
And usually each person is verydifferent.
So that dance you have to do tofigure each other out, as you
said, to arouse each other, allof that is it is it is the way
God intended it, but it also istakes time.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
I just want to call out though, the I agree with all
that.
I totally agree with that.
I think there's some truth inthat, but I want to call out the
between the two things that wejust said, there's a little
danger that I would at leastwant to call out because I think
for a long time it's beenassumed, oh my goodness, if
we're not having sex, it mustmean that my husband's using
(14:48):
porn.
SPEAKER_03 (14:48):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:49):
And and I want to call out that that is not
necessarily the case.
There's a whole lot of otherreasons here and that we can't
oversimplify this and just say,oh, nope, you uh you aren't, so
he's gonna go get it somewhereelse, which leads to that
empowerment issue that we saidof you know, holding women
responsible because it's not,it's not their responsibility
(15:12):
alone.
SPEAKER_04 (15:14):
Yeah, there's a lot of benign reasons for people not
doing this.
I mean, even the the devices,the electronic devices, that can
be a very benign thing you'redoing.
You know, you can be watch, youcan be streaming the chosen, you
know.
Yeah, yeah, and uh, or whateveryou're doing.
And so, but it still isinterfering with your real life
(15:36):
relationships.
And so some of the other reasonsthat I put down is for instance
the parenting overload.
We hear this all the time frompeople.
And this is when I talk to ummom co-groups, one of the main
questions I get is isessentially how do we find time
with our overwhelming schedulewith kids?
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Yeah, yep.
And it's a great question.
I I saw something the other daybecause I was actually reading a
little bit about the culturalchange of parenting that had has
happened in the last 30, 40years, where you know, I
remember there was thisparenting thing that said you're
(16:16):
home from school, or certainlyin the summer, go out and play.
I don't want to see you untillunchtime, or I don't want to
see you until dinner, and justsending the kids out.
And parents' moms typically atthat point had tons of time to
do the laundry and do the thingsthat needed done without having
(16:37):
to chase a kid and be aroundthem 24-7 and watch everything
that they do, and that shiftedright since at least the 2000s.
It's been expected if your kidsare playing outside, there has
to be a parent watching them allthe time, right?
There has to be monitoring,there has to be this place, and
(16:57):
they're right, like then ittakes this thing of we have we
have no time to do anything thatneeds done, let alone to connect
with each other.
SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
I don't I you say like watching them all the time.
I think there's also acorrelation with the amount of
things that kids are allowed todo.
I mean, Brad and I have alwaysbeen outspoken about this.
When our kids started enteringthat phase of being old enough
to participate in differentthings, we certainly wanted that
(17:33):
for them.
We chose to have at that timewould have been three kids and
then eventually four.
So we made the decision veryquickly of like you get to do
one thing at a time.
SPEAKER_03 (17:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:44):
Because there's three of you.
So that's already three thingsthat dad and I have to figure
out how to get you to, how toall those kinds of things.
Um, and very few times we wouldmake exceptions to that, but we
really stuck to that on throughto high school unless they could
then drive themselves to themany different things.
Um, and I don't know about you,Brad, but I feel like that
(18:09):
protected a lot of our time.
And we did that even before ourmarriage was in a good space.
And I see a lot of parentscommitted to so much stuff,
which I get it.
It's fun and it's whatever, itgives you your community.
There's all aspects to it.
I don't know.
But for us, that was reallyimportant, and I think it really
(18:30):
helped us.
And I found we still had plentyof places to drive our kids to,
so it's not like we were, youknow, told our kids you can't do
anything.
It we were driving around quitea bit.
Yeah, we had to like work out aschedule every week of like
who's driving kids where.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
That's exhausting, right?
And you add that to your phone,that's your entertainment and
your distraction and yourdowntime.
Yeah, I understand why coupleshave left less time to connect
to it with each other.
SPEAKER_04 (18:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Part of this parenting overloadpiece is is also that a lot of
us don't have extended familynear.
But as you were talking about,okay, I'm a bit older than y'all
are, so I definitely rememberthe thing of you get home from
school, I had a snack, I watcheda show, and then it was like,
Goodbye, I'll see you when itthe lights go outside or
(19:24):
whatever.
And and I think back, and thereare hours that my parents did
not know where I was.
I mean, I was in theneighborhood, I had a bike and
that was it, but they reallydidn't know where I was.
But the thing about that is atthe time that there were not
many dual-income families aroundus, right?
And so when I rode through themy bike down the neighborhood or
(19:46):
whatever, I saw other people.
And like my mom would see otherkids and that.
So if I got into trouble, therewas somebody who would be like,
Where do you live?
Let's go over here.
That's not as true in ourneighborhoods these days.
Yes, and you also just don'thave the extended family near,
so you don't have the aunts, theuncles, the grandparents who are
helping you do that.
(20:08):
And it really is useful to haveother people you can rely on to
kind of care for your kids.
And even those things ofdividing out, there was a a uh
twin boys who played baseballwith our son.
We did the same thing, by theway, one activity at a time.
Yep.
And sometimes the seasons wouldoverlap and we'd allow that, but
(20:31):
other than that, it was oneactivity at a time.
But there were twin boys whoplayed on my son's baseball
team, and if the parentscouldn't make it, the
grandparents showed up.
SPEAKER_03 (20:41):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (20:41):
And so how how wonderful is that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
You have to have some of that support.
And I think so many familiesdon't.
SPEAKER_04 (20:52):
But we didn't have that when when we were raising
our kids, we didn't haveextended family nearby who could
be by.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
What did you guys do?
SPEAKER_04 (21:01):
How did you know that?
What did we do?
Yeah.
Well, we we I mean, there weretwo of us, and so we did you had
two kids, two of us.
So divide and conquer as much aspossible.
But there were even times whereone of us couldn't go because of
a job situation or this andthat.
And I know, I know there arethere are adults who fondly look
back and say things like, My dadnever missed a game.
(21:24):
And I just want to say, I missedsome games.
Yeah, and my kids okay.
And actually, my other son did awhole swim season where he was
like, Mom, I just want this tobe my thing.
And I was like, Okay.
And I think I showed up to onething.
SPEAKER_01 (21:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Well, when our kids did were old enough to do our
school sports teams, which wasgreat.
Um, we did we said we're doingwe will try to make it to all of
your home games.
That was our goal.
One of us or the two of us, butaway games, we very few times
did we go unless they wereactually super close to where
(22:04):
our school district is.
So, like we just said to thekids, like, it's really
important, we want to watch you,but this is what we're able to
commit to, right?
And I think the challenge isparents worry that that then
teaches your kid you're not apriority, but they need you at
other times too, not just atsporting events, right?
They need you when they've had arough day, when they've had a
(22:26):
really exciting day.
So good.
Like, and so I don't know, Bradand I just chose different
healthy boundaries.
We felt like they were healthy.
I'm not sure our kids couldprobably tell you their thoughts
on it, but I don't know.
I don't think going toeverything, being at micro at
every micro event is is theanswer.
(22:48):
I mean, we're not talking abouttheir big life-changing events,
we're talking about, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Yeah, little things.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
So I don't know.
I don't think that's the answer.
And I but I do wonder how muchthat is robbing people of yeah,
time in their marriage.
Yeah.
But also probably giving themthe excuse they may want to also
not be investing in theirmarriage.
Like I think that happens a lotas well.
We just throw ourselves into thekids and then we don't have to
(23:16):
think about connecting and allthat kind of stuff.
I don't know.
Some people very intentionallywant to.
I think sometimes people use itas an excuse too.
So I don't know.
SPEAKER_04 (23:29):
Yeah, I think I had someone when my kids were young
tried repeatedly to talk me intobeing room mom.
Oh and almost made it sound likeif you're not, if you're not
invested, if you're not there,then your kid's not gonna get
the education he should get, andyou're not gonna know what's
going on, and you're gonna be,you know, and I was just like, I
can't I cannot add one morething.
(23:50):
Yeah, and I also think, you knowwhat?
If the difference between mebeing able to have intimacy with
my husband and not is saying noto being room mom, you know
what?
I I think it's important for meto invest in my marriage so that
now I have a strong foundationfor those kids.
Correct.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (24:08):
Correct.
SPEAKER_04 (24:09):
I would agree.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
Yes, we actually just a couple of uh a month or
so ago interviewed one of ourdaughters on this of like what
was it like growing up in amarriage positive house and what
were the impacts?
And you know, she was honest,like there were times that we
knew that you two went away orwent out, and I was irritated
(24:30):
with that as a kid, but now Ican look back and go, oh yeah,
okay, that was okay.
Like it was fine, that wasprobably a good thing, right?
And uh, you know, it it is hard,it is a sacrifice to go.
I'm going to prioritize mymarriage, and that does impact
the kids, but I don't think it'sa negative impact.
(24:54):
I I think our kids need to knowthat they don't have to be first
all the time, right?
SPEAKER_04 (25:03):
Yes, that's so important.
I sometimes think the way peoplewill if you enroll your kids in
everything and you're but youknow, because of fear of missing
out, your kid's gonna miss out,and you have feel like you have
to be at everything and andyou're constantly there for your
kid, but then you're not reallyinvesting in your marriage,
right?
Then you're teaching your kidthat they're the center of the
(25:24):
universe, and you're alsotelling your spouse You're not,
yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
You know, one of the places that I noticed that it's
so simple, but it it's profoundis pickup time for kids' events.
It used to be, and I rememberthis, like it used to be I'd get
done practice and I'd call myparents and go, can you come
pick me up?
And I'd wait for 15 minutes,whatever, for them to come get
(25:54):
me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
Dude, they lived right next to the school.
You probably didn't even have towait 15 minutes.
My parents lived in the boonies.
I usually waited forever.
We went to the same school, butI did not grow up in a
neighborhood.
SPEAKER_01 (26:07):
The kids waited.
That's the key, right?
We waited for them.
Now it's if you're not thereright when something ends and
they won't necessarily tell youwhen it ends, then you're being
a bad parent and you're imposingon somebody else.
So you'd better get there 20minutes early and wait.
SPEAKER_02 (26:26):
Oh, the amount of time parents are sitting and
waiting.
Yeah.
No, it's true.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
It just shows the priority shift.
SPEAKER_04 (26:34):
Yeah, I this is gonna make me feel like such a
bad parent.
Someone's gonna laugh at this,though, out there.
So there would be moms in theelementary school line who would
get there 30 minutes beforeschool ended so that they could
be at the very beginning andpick their kids up right away.
And I remember I and I lived inthe same neighborhood as our
thing, but I remember thinkingnow I'm waiting until school
(26:56):
ends, and then I'm going,because you know what?
That's when the line moves,right?
Seriously.
When your kid is in the lastthird of being picked up, the
line moves.
SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
Yeah.
Well, the only time we did it,we made our kids rode the bus.
The only time we did it is likedoctor's appointment or
something, and then you need tobe.
SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
And I was like, these people are they're they're
just well they're giving so I'mlike, wow, their energy time to
their kids and so early, yes.
It was yeah, it's not goingsomewhere else.
SPEAKER_04 (27:27):
So some some people I know did this, and they also
said that was like their time togo sit there and do meditation
or read or something.
That's fine.
If that's better than me,something they carved out.
But if the idea was gonna go,some of these were just like
people just sitting in their carand like talking to other moms
and this and that.
I'm thinking, yeah, do you havenothing else to do?
Because I can think of all kindsof things to do.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
So, one of the other things that you mentioned in the
article is the increased stress.
SPEAKER_04 (27:55):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
I I mean, I think we all know it.
We feel the increased stress,like we talk about it.
How do you see that impactingcouples and certainly impacting
sex?
SPEAKER_04 (28:09):
Okay, well, it's currently impacting me.
I will say that in everymarriage.
Um, before we got on, I wastelling you some of the stress
uh stressors in my life.
I've got um some couple offamily members with health
issues.
Uh, my son recently moved in,which has been great.
He's uh doing really well incollege, but that's been a
(28:31):
change.
Yeah.
And one of my closest friends ishaving marital difficulty.
So all these things going onhave just taken a lot of
attention and added a lot ofstress.
But your stress may lookdifferent out there.
So, whatever it is, part of thatis that you just don't have the
same energy and focus that youneed.
(28:54):
And a lot of people will say,well, sex is a stress reliever.
And it's like, yes, that'sentirely true.
But also, you have to be able toget there to get the relief.
And if your attention has beendrawn to all these other things,
and also cortisol is the stresshormone, and cortisol is known
to dampen sexual interest.
SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
I think that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (29:19):
Yeah.
Well, because your body issaying this isn't a priority
right now because all ofwhatever is going on, that's how
God designed our bodies.
But I do think in this climateof just life and all different
kinds of things, sometimes ourbody is playing tricks on us.
(29:39):
Sometimes, like we've got tolearn to bring it down.
Sometimes you really are in thatspace, and it's okay that it's
just not an option.
SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
I but I think it's so interesting in just the
timing, and I I think a lot ofpeople think, oh, well, stress
is a stress or sex is a stressreliever.
So we should be having more ifwe're stressed, but it like just
recognizing that that's not howyour body works, that desire is
going to be lower because ofthat.
SPEAKER_04 (30:12):
Yeah, I think Kate's so right that it's your your
biology is basically saying thisis not the priority now.
And and it's not distinguishingwhat kind of stress your body
just feels stress and it says,okay, we need to focus on the
things that are causing youstress.
Well, you know, that's entirelyreasonable if you're if you're
way back when and you're yourstress is there's a war going
(30:36):
on, or you know, there is anillness or whatever.
That's entirely reasonable.
We, however, have createdoftentimes an atmosphere of
chronic stress.
And we, you know, things likeyou finish your job and you
bring a lot of it home with youinstead of being able to say,
(30:57):
you know, that's done, and nowI'm I'm coming home and I'm just
gonna let that go.
Yeah.
Or, you know, going online andlooking at the news from all
over the world can be sostressful.
And it used to be you just knewwhat was going on in your
community, and maybe you'd heara rumor about something going on
(31:18):
way far away, but you reallyknew you couldn't do anything
about that.
Now we're inundated with this.
And I've heard this sometimessaid as um, you we get panicked
that someone somewhere else isliving wrong.
And it's like, okay.
Always the case.
Yeah.
It's always the case, but youknow what?
(31:39):
Maybe the the answer is not tostress so much, but just to pray
and let go.
Um, but just wherever we'rebringing in stress that maybe we
don't need to have, we shouldlook at our lives and ask some
questions of, you know, is thisuh is this serving me?
Is this something I really needto be going through, or is there
something I can let go so that Ican be more present in the
(32:01):
moment with my spouse and withmy life?
SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
I think too, you know, we work with a lot of
clients on self-care, right?
And there's a correlation withunderstanding your story and
realizing as children we weredoing the best to survive and do
as well as we could in ourfamilies, but learning how to
take care of yourself isn'tusually something that is
(32:28):
cultivated.
And so a lot of times we'retrying to bring that back in,
like understanding your body,what you feel, and how do you
take care of it?
Because I think a lot of peoplegrew up and the stress just
piles and piles and piles, andthey don't actually know how to
regulate their body, which ishard.
I'm not saying that it's uh aneasy journey, but I also think
(32:51):
we all have to recognize, youknow, you said like that pray
and let it go.
I think because sometimes peopledon't even have a clue how to
let it go.
SPEAKER_03 (33:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
And so talking about, you know, how do you
identify what you feel in yourbody, then how do you take care
of that in a healthy, positiveway, have good, healthy stress
release, um, I think is vital.
I think the other thing that Iknow Brad and I talked about a
long time ago.
Well, it feels like a long timeago, but when we were trying to
(33:25):
do a lot of that, our home wasvery difficult, stressful, a lot
of trauma just going on.
Um Brad and I had talks aboutokay, is it okay that sex
doesn't look quite asadventurous as I think sometimes
also the Christian community canput a lot of pressure on people
(33:47):
that it like because God createdit is wonderful, we should
always be engaging in thisreally adventurous, amazing,
whatever that looks like for youas a couple.
Brad and I had to have theconversation because not only
was our home stressful, butthey're all young adults or
teenagers.
So there's not a lot of timethat kiddos, you know, that
(34:09):
you're not, you don't want to beblatant about it, all of these
kinds of things.
And we said, maybe sex is justcomfort right now.
And maybe a lot of times morethan not, it looks the same
every time we engage, if thatmakes sense.
Um, not a lot of effort onwearing something sexy or doing
all of this.
(34:30):
Like, right, we found a rhythmthat worked for us in what that
looked like, but we were honestabout it and had the
conversation for right now.
Yeah, this is like all we haveto give when we come here.
And it still was a real, I don'tknow, Brad, you can speak from
your perspective.
Um, I think I was anxious aboutthat, that that would not be
(34:52):
enough or okay.
But I was really thankful thatit seemed like you were able to
meet me in that place.
Um, and so I think sometimesowning that when it's really
stressful, it doesn't have tolook like the most amazing times
where you've spent an hourpreparing and all of this stuff
when life has really hard thingsgoing on.
SPEAKER_03 (35:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:14):
I don't know.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_04 (35:16):
I think that's so good.
I'll just drop that in beforeBrad says anything.
SPEAKER_01 (35:20):
Uh no, I I think you hate this analogy, but No, are
you gonna bring out the menuanalogy?
Yes, we have talked about thatsometimes sex is fast food,
sometimes it's fine dining, andsometimes it's the middle of the
road restaurant that is you knowsomewhere in between.
And I think when things arestressful, there's not a problem
(35:44):
that you skip fine dining for awhile.
SPEAKER_04 (35:46):
Yeah.
There you go.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
It it it is, and and it's healthy and it's good, and
there's there's yes, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (35:58):
We just didn't have the mental capacity.
I know I didn't for the finedining very often.
And to me, fine dining when youhave a bunch of people in your
home who can understand what'sgoing on.
It's weird.
It's weird, and so it the onlytime it could happen would be
late at night, and that justBrad and I were done at that
point, right?
So, like I think also justhonoring what can it look like
(36:23):
in a positive way that you bothare understanding and not have
all this pressure attached toit.
SPEAKER_04 (36:30):
But I think you also have to take some steps.
It's interesting you're sayingthat people don't know what it
looks like to let go.
And I laughed at myself at evensaying it that way because
that's so true.
It is that people do need tofigure out how to be in the
moment despite some stuff goingon.
And for me, you're right, it'snot like you just let it go,
(36:52):
boom, and I just dropped it andit's done.
In fact, years back, um, you'regonna laugh at this.
What happened actually is wewere uh supposed to meet up with
Paul and Lori Byrley for lunch,and we were running late, and I
was not happy that we wererunning late, and I was very
worried.
And so we were on the way, andhe's driving, and he said, Don't
(37:15):
worry.
And I and he was saying asusual, stop worrying, don't
worry, blah, blah, blah.
And I said, You don't, I don'tliterally have no idea how to
make that happen.
I said, You say that.
I said, I have no idea.
I said, What happens is it'slike I have these pop-up boxes,
you know, the pop-up windows.
And if I try to click it down,it just three more pop-up, you
(37:38):
know, and it just that's what itis.
And so I can be doing it, but Ican't, I can't catch up.
I can't just stop worrying.
And so I think as far as the letit go, I think it really isn't
just you let it go.
It's what I learned is that Ineeded to face that the stress
and say, this is reallystressing me out.
And also acknowledge that.
(38:00):
Yeah.
And then say, okay, what isstressing me out?
What can I do about it?
What can I not do about it?
What's the worst thing thatcould happen here?
What is I needed to processthrough that whole stress.
And for me, some of that comesas part of the prayer with God.
Sure.
Is that I'm processing throughall that stress.
And then a lot of times Irealize I can't get rid of it
(38:23):
all.
Some of it's gonna remain, andthat's okay.
But I can take what I can off myplate.
And then when I come with myhusband, I can say, you know
what?
When when we leave, I'm gonnabasically try to set this down
here.
And I know when we're done, I'mgonna have to pick it back up.
SPEAKER_02 (38:42):
Right.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_04 (38:44):
But I can set it down for time, I can focus on
him, I can focus on us.
We can have the sexual intimacy,and that will also give me some
more energy, strength, umsupport.
Yeah, you know, all thosefeelings to be able to then pick
that back up and continue on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:04):
I think that's really an important way of
dealing with that stress, thatwe can't just turn it off.
We can't say, okay, stopstressing now.
Right.
And I think a lot of guys needto hear that message because we
guys tend to be a little bitmore compartmentalized in some
of that thinking and can justkind of go, okay, I'm gonna turn
(39:26):
that off.
Now, that doesn't mean stressdoesn't impact us.
It does, but there does tend tobe a little less of the I'm
worried about the grocery listwhile I'm supposed to be sitting
with my wife, you know, kind ofthing.
Like there's a little less ofthat kind of intrusive for many
(39:47):
men.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
You pick the grocery list.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
I I was just thinking of things that pop in
your head, you know, whileyou're trying to be with the
ever pop in your head?
unknown (39:58):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (39:59):
Kids.
That's the thing that I hearmost women say is the most
intrusive.
SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
It's kids.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:06):
Yeah.
That must be nice to not havethose intrusive thoughts.
SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
I I don't want to say that they never happen.
They they do.
And I think I think that's wherestress really does impact men,
that all of a sudden it'sthey're thinking about job or
the chores that they have to door the thing, like there is that
place where that's becomingintrusive.
And I think that is pushing someof that this decrease, even in
(40:34):
that.
So I I I'm curious as we're kindof wrapping this up, is what's
the fix for this?
Like, if you're sitting hererecognizing, wow, yeah, our our
rate of sexual intimacy hasdecreased, one, is that a
problem?
And two, what do we do aboutthat?
SPEAKER_02 (40:55):
Great question.
I'll let Julie start.
SPEAKER_04 (40:58):
Well, yeah, I mean, I do think it's good to ask, is
that a problem?
For instance, we mentioned inthe female empowerment thing,
maybe you were having sex fivetimes a week because you thought
you had to have sex every timeyou wanted to, and now you're
down to once or twice a week,and the sex is better and good
for you.
Yeah.
You know, that's a so that's nota problem.
That's an improvement.
(41:19):
Uh, if now you're having qualitysex.
But on some of these others,that obviously, you know, if the
issue is pornography, you needto be addressing that.
And I know that AldrichMinistries is a great place to
come and get help with that.
Um, but that's something thatcertainly needs to be addressed
immediately.
Some of these other things we'vetalked a little bit about,
(41:40):
things you can do to move stressoff your plate.
But I think the core issue iskind of asking the why.
Is this a rough season?
Is this an improvement?
Is there something deeper goingon?
Maybe we're having less sexbecause the sexual trauma from
my childhood has you know comeback up and is, you know, and
(42:02):
that needs to be addressed.
So even as we talk about thesefive million couples or the 10%
drop, they haven't all droppedfor the same reason.
unknown (42:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (42:14):
They're all have their own stories.
Yes.
And so you have to ask what yourown story is so that you know
what the right next step is.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Do you think that that drop is really one person
in the couple dropping, or doyou feel like it is both?
Or a mix?
SPEAKER_04 (42:36):
Yes.
That's not helpful, is it?
I d I don't know.
I think that it's a little ofboth.
I think that there are a lot ofcouples that are just not having
sex as much as they want tobecause life is busy, because
they're, you know, they're notcommunicating as much, they're
not getting date nights, they'renot getting connection time to
feel like they can be together.
(42:56):
And then that's a couple issue.
SPEAKER_03 (42:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (42:58):
I certainly think the imp the explosion of
pornography usually affects onespouse more than the other.
That's that's what I've seen.
And I'm not, well, of course itaffects the mate, but I'm saying
it's usually one person of thetwo who's having a major porn
issue.
unknown (43:18):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (43:19):
Right.
Well, and then the betrayal canalso greatly impact that.
Um, yes, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (43:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I think, you know, obviouslythere's an interesting other
side here that I think sometimesthe decrease comes out of, you
know, we're both stressed, we'reboth in a busy season.
Yep, we understand this, but Ithink a lot of times I guess one
(43:47):
of the things I saw in this iswow, that's a lot more couples
that somebody's walking aroundwith some frustration.
That my spouse wants a lot lesssex than I do.
And that that tension can becomea conflict point.
(44:09):
It can be a something thatcreates a lot of challenge for
couples.
SPEAKER_04 (44:17):
Yeah, I think it's been very interesting to hear
how a higher desire spouse and alower desire spouse explain
their experiences because bothof them have, I think both of
them have frustration, but it'sdifferent.
The lower desire often feelslike they are pressured, yeah,
or they are objectified, or theyare just not valued for who they
(44:42):
are, but more for their sexualselves.
And in turn, the higher desirespouse often feels that they are
not valued fully because theirsexual selves are not part of
that.
Yes.
And they feel um they feellonely a lot of times, honestly.
SPEAKER_03 (45:02):
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_04 (45:04):
Yeah.
So both of them are goingthrough some hardship that, you
know, kind of working throughthat those differences, that gap
would really help both of them.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (45:16):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (45:17):
Yeah.
And yes, I think you're spot on.
I think both are dissatisfied,but for different reasons.
Um I think that's actuallyimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (45:29):
Both, I always said it, both feel very broken for
very different reasons.
Right?
Because neither one, I mean,there may be truth in how they
like say, oh, they may pointfingers in the conflicts, but
the reality is inside both ofthem feel, what the heck's wrong
(45:50):
with me?
Why don't I want it more?
Why don't I want it less?
Why do I always write?
Like, why does the world tell meit should be this way and it's
not?
Like there are a lot of Ireflections going on inside.
Well, reflections is a niceword, it's probably contempt.
Um, that I think people need torecognize it's not what's coming
out, but that is often what iswhat is happening on the
(46:15):
internal.
Um, and I think it's importantthat we honor that that's there,
that's there for a reason.
Um it that message didn'tnecessarily come from sexual
content as a young adult or ateenager, but it comes from
something.
Um, it's reflective of otherthings you feel in life about
different things.
(46:35):
And so it's important to honorthat and understand where it
comes from.
SPEAKER_01 (46:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:41):
To be able to move in a different space and not
have that keep chasing you.
SPEAKER_01 (46:47):
I I think that sexual contempt thing is a is a
really big part of this, right?
There's a place where both sidesare probably feeling some loss
in in this space.
SPEAKER_04 (47:02):
For sure.
You know, I think of it as thehigher desire wife or higher
desire wife, higher desirespouse.
You can tell who I usually workwith.
The higher desire spouse oftenfeels like, why don't you want
me?
Yes.
And the lower desire spousefeels like, why do you want me
only for that?
SPEAKER_01 (47:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (47:19):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (47:20):
100%.
And we hear that dynamic all thetime.
And then it sounds like theanswer is, well, if you just
want me for, you know,connection and let's cuddle and
have other things going on,which is fantastic, those are
really important, then thehigher desire wife or higher
(47:44):
desire spouse ends up feelinglike I I don't want to say used,
I think it feels lost in that aswell.
Of like, yes, we can have lotsof connection, but if it doesn't
lead to sexual intimacy, it'slike, wait a minute, where
where's that going?
(48:04):
So I can feel that side.
SPEAKER_04 (48:06):
Both of them are feeling like there are parts,
there are parts of themselvesthat the spouse is not
accepting.
SPEAKER_01 (48:13):
Yes, that's a good way to put it.
SPEAKER_04 (48:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
So I I mean, obviously, I think what you're
raising is a a study that'sshowing there should be lots of
conversation going on aboutfrequency and that couples
should be having a conversationof like, hey, how do you feel
about our sexual frequency?
And go, is it something that weshould work on?
(48:40):
Is it something that we shouldmove towards each other on?
SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
But I think you need to remember that the three of us
have worked really hard onmaking that safe.
Yes.
Right?
And it has to be a conversationthat we can sit and hear the
other person and honor it, evenif we're sitting there thinking
I would like something differentand we need to meet in the
middle.
Like the goal isn't that youjust get to stay stuck where you
(49:07):
are and I get to stay stuckwhere I am.
We want to meet in the middle,but many times I know when we
work with couples, thatconversation is not safe to have
because it feels like one personis going to, well, I shouldn't
say one person, each person isgonna do their own thing,
whether one is sort of umwanting to really like be
aggressive about theconversation and one is shutting
(49:30):
down, or like it it is a hardconversation to have because
they've tried to have it beforeand it doesn't hasn't gone well
in the past.
Yes.
So the biggest thing I canencourage you, which is
difficult because you're goingto have to calm down what's
going inside of your body,either calm it down, or you're
gonna have to tell it not toshut down.
I need to listen, I need tohear, I need to understand, not
(49:53):
just be listening to respondwith my side of what's
happening.
SPEAKER_03 (49:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (49:58):
I love what you said on our podcast, Kate, about just
being curious.
And I think that attitude ofjust being curious can change
everything.
And um, and just really, yeah,not trying to think about how am
I gonna respond and what do Iwant, but try to understand.
We talked about understandingthe why as a couple.
(50:18):
Try to understand your spouse'swhy.
Yep.
Why are they wanting more sex?
Why are they wanting less sex?
Yes, why are they saying thatthe quality of sex is not
working for them?
SPEAKER_01 (50:31):
So important.
Yep, so important, right.
And and it is not just onething.
Um, and there's not just oneanswer to that, and I think it
is an important conversation,and more people need to be
willing to have it.
And I know it's really hard.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Wow, well, Jay, I so appreciateyou uh coming on and letting us
(50:55):
talk about this so importanttopic.
I'm sure it's gonna bring lotsof questions.
Where can people find you?
SPEAKER_04 (51:03):
Well, they can find everything about me pretty much
at one place,hotholyhumorous.com.
And that humorous is spelled theAmerican way, not the British
Canadian way with that extra wedon't need that you.
So hotholyhumorous.com, and youcan actually find information
there about our podcast as well,my Higher Desire Wives
(51:26):
community, my books, just allkinds of stuff there.
SPEAKER_01 (51:31):
And we we need a lot of couples to uh hear material
in the past, and I know there'sa lot of people who are getting
a lot of help and encouragement.
SPEAKER_04 (51:42):
Yeah.
And I I really encourage youraudience if you have not
listened to Kate's appearance onour sex chat for Christian
Wives.
Uh you can find that episode onanywhere you can find podcasts.
SPEAKER_01 (51:54):
Yeah, we'll put a link in the uh show notes.
Well, we appreciate you comingand uh joining us on Still
Becoming One.
Until next time, I'm Brad DoubleTurch.
SPEAKER_02 (52:07):
And I'm Kate DoubleTurch, be kind and take
care of each other.
SPEAKER_01 (52:11):
Awesome.
Well, thank you, Jay.
SPEAKER_00 (52:19):
Still Becoming One is a production of Alchich
Ministries.
For more information about Bradand Kate's coaching ministries,
courses, and speakingopportunities, you can find us
at Aldrich Ministries.com.
For podcast show notes and linksto resources in all of our
social media, be sure to visitus at still becoming one.com.
(52:41):
And don't forget to like thisepisode wherever you get your
podcasts.
And be sure to follow us tocontinue your journey on Still
Becoming One.
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