October 8, 2025 • 44 mins
What if the real intimacy killer isn’t your past, but how it gets dismissed? We dig into ways couples can invalidate each other’s stories—“It wasn’t that bad,” “You should be over it,” “That’s just your story”—and why those phrases shut down safety, trust, and depth. Drawing from our own marriage and years of coaching, we unpack the difference between knowing a partner’s facts and understanding the impact those moments wrote on the heart.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:04):
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
We are Brad and Kate.
SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've
survived both dark times andexperienced restoration.
SPEAKER_03 (00:15):
Now, as a licensed marriage counselor and
relationship coaches, we helpcouples to regain hope and joy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
We invite you to journey with us as we are still
becoming one.
SPEAKER_03 (00:27):
Let's start the conversation.
SPEAKER_04 (00:31):
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Still BecomingOne.
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
Welcome back.
SPEAKER_04 (00:38):
You're chipper for Monday.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
Wait a second.
SPEAKER_04 (00:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
Yeah, so Mondays are not my favorite day, but I'm
always, ah, always is a strongword.
I'm often chipper.
SPEAKER_04 (00:50):
Everyone listening to this is like, it's not
Monday, but that's when we'rerecording.
SPEAKER_00 (00:54):
True.
But I'm often chipper in themornings.
No, you are.
Just too chipper for you.
SPEAKER_04 (01:00):
I need my coffee first.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (01:03):
Or I hit chipper.
Yeah, I just I have my coffeenow.
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
My body just says, well, if we're up, we might as
well act like we're up.
So then we just get the chipperpart going on.
SPEAKER_04 (01:15):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
But I have my London fog.
SPEAKER_04 (01:18):
Yep.
Kate is um definitely, I wasgonna say addicted.
You're not addicted.
You are definitely enjoy yourLondon fog tradition.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
What would make me addicted?
SPEAKER_04 (01:29):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
If I had like six a day.
SPEAKER_04 (01:31):
We did discover that people in London have no idea
what a London fog is.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Nope.
It's an American thing.
SPEAKER_04 (01:39):
It's an American thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
It's rude.
But it's it's um the way thatit's made is very British,
though.
Because it's Earl Grey tea.
unknown (01:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (01:49):
And then tea latte.
SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
Yep, a little vanilla syrup and then milk.
So it makes it look likeLondon's fog.
And Earl Grey, I mean it's gray.
So there you go.
I do enjoy it.
SPEAKER_04 (02:03):
It's like your barista for the day.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Your coffee and the moth.
We have a moth flying around inhere, and it almost just flew
into your coffee.
SPEAKER_04 (02:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Yes, for sure.
So what are we talking abouttoday?
SPEAKER_04 (02:18):
What are we talking about?
We're kind of continuing ourpath on understanding story work
and how it implies in marriage,how it can help marriages.
I think today actually we'regonna end up talking about how
it maybe hurts marriagessometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Oh, we don't really want to promote that, do we?
SPEAKER_04 (02:38):
No, but I think it's something I I mean, admittedly,
I did for a long time.
I think it's something a lot ofcouples do um in invalidating
their partner's story.
And because of that, I thinkit's important that we talk
about it.
And we've even seen this aswe've started working with
couples um and they've gotten toknow each other's stories a
(03:03):
little bit, that sometimes thefirst thing that comes out is
not exactly warm and fuzzy.
SPEAKER_00 (03:13):
Hmm.
Well, maybe it's not, I Iwouldn't go that extreme, but
many times it's just like welisten and we're like, oh, okay.
Right.
And in our head, we're thinking,like, what's the big deal?
All that like I don't know thateverybody is necessarily like um
(03:36):
what'd be the word, likeaggressive back towards it.
Like that's dumb or that, right?
It's not, it's but it's notbeing able to to actually hear
the heart of what how thatimpacted yeah their spouse.
SPEAKER_04 (03:49):
And I think truly some of this what's coming where
it's coming from is this idea.
I think almost all the timesthat we've worked with couples
in story work.
Maybe there's a few exceptionsto this, but most of the time
the partner knew the facts of astory.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
Many times, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (04:11):
Right?
They they knew, oh yeah, yeah,yeah.
I remember you saying thathappened.
Like kind of so it's not likethe topic was a secret, but I
think a lot of times theemotions, the content, how that
story shaped somebody, that'ssomething that they've never
even considered before.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
Right.
And I do think, however, youshared it, probably most people
were talking about not sharingit in a storywork manner.
If you share it once and you geta response that doesn't feel
great or safe, then at least Iknow this to be true for myself
(04:55):
and probably for you as well.
Um, and you can share, but likethen it doesn't feel safe to
ever touch base on that subjectagain.
SPEAKER_04 (05:04):
Right.
Kind of thing.
And that's exactly what I mean.
We kind of something about itinvalidates the story.
And you know, I I mean, I cansay I certainly did this to you.
Like you had told me a storyearly on that I I mean, I'll
(05:25):
just say it.
Like, I I took the side of yourmom.
Like when I heard the story, Iwas like, oh yeah, but you
probably doesn't recognizeWilliam what she would went
through.
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
And I didn't feel like you took the side of my
mom.
I just felt like you thought itwas not a big deal and get over
it kind of thing.
But interesting.
SPEAKER_04 (05:45):
Uh yeah, I I mean, I'm sure I I'm sure I probably
communicated that too.
Like, why is this such a bigdeal?
But I think I was like, well,you don't understand how, like,
and tried to defend some thingsthat really hurt you in this way
of just absolutely not hearingthe pain, the hurt, the what
(06:11):
this did to you, the the placeof it feeling alone to you.
Like, I don't think I supported,listened to any of that.
I invalidated a lot of that bykind of saying it's not that big
a deal, and you know, oh, yourmom wasn't trying to do XYZ,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Like kind of thing.
And I think that but she wastrying to.
Well, that's a part of thestory.
SPEAKER_04 (06:38):
That's part of the story, right?
Exactly.
But it it irregardless of whatyour mom did or didn't do, what
your like the reasons behindher, whether she had a reason
for it or not, doesn't matter.
Like just the place ofinvalidating the fact that this
(06:58):
thing hurt you is it, I mean,that's our ex one of our
examples of how I did that earlyon.
Um, and just kind of yeah, okay.
And then so then it took a lotof years and us a lot of work
for you to come back to thatstory and be able to share it in
a way that I was able to hearthe actual little kid emotions.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Hmm.
I had to share it in a way thatyou were able to hear.
That's even interesting, rightthere, that you said that.
SPEAKER_04 (07:31):
Well, no.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
I don't think it's that.
I think it's you being able tolisten in a way.
SPEAKER_04 (07:36):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
Right?
SPEAKER_04 (07:37):
Correct.
I I mean, I think this is whathappens all the time is people
do share the details of theirstories.
Well, because sharing theemotions of their stories.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Right, because we share the details first to see
if someone can even hold that,right?
And when they can't hold thatwell, why would we share the
emotions?
Because they're deeper and muchmore personal and vulnerable and
I think that is entirelyaccurate.
SPEAKER_04 (08:10):
I think that is I I think I'm trying to say this,
like I think that is also howwomen hold and retell stories.
I think men don't even realizethere's emotion in the story
(08:31):
until they're encouraged in away to actually find it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Well, okay.
I and yes, in this generation ofAmericans, women are allowed and
somewhat more encouraged withtheir emotions.
But I think like looking back,thinking about myself, I think I
(08:58):
could tell you there was greathurt.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
But that's probably it.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
I'm not sure I could have gone deeper because I was
never encouraged to go deeper.
No one in my life acknowledgedthe pain of that story.
No one, you know, not even theperson causing it, apologize.
Like there's just no so I thinkI don't know that I could have
(09:27):
dove further because there wasno permission to do so.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
So we have to like think about all those dynamics
as well, right?
And how they impact things.
SPEAKER_04 (09:38):
Do you think, like, as I was talking through this
topic of invalidating our ourstories, there's two sides of
that.
There's certainly what I did ofinvalidating and ending up
taking the side of the oppositeside of the story and going, oh,
that shouldn't be a big deal, orwell, you know, kind of thing.
That's certainly invalidating.
There's also that side that Iknow I did in my own stories for
(10:02):
a long time in going, oh, Ishould just get over that.
That's just not that big a deal.
Why, why is that even a thingthat keeps coming up for me?
Like, and and kind of trying totell ourselves that we're being
babies about it or you know,whatever, the that it just
shouldn't matter.
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
Which is kind of an ironic statement.
We're being babies about it.
It's not quite accurate, but weare being kids.
And that's the thing.
Like I think for me, learning tovalidate, of course,
understanding story was huge,but then being able to actually
(10:45):
envision, sit with that littlegirl or little boy for you, like
thinking about you, and beingable to sit with him and be
like, oh my goodness, this isthis is a lot, this is hard.
I think that's the reality.
We we can't sit with the adultversion, although we are, in
(11:09):
sense, I found like I feel likegoing in circles, but like today
we're sitting with the adultversion as people, but we're
also sitting with the kid whoexperienced it.
SPEAKER_04 (11:17):
Yeah.
I mean, one of the ways I saythat all the time is I think we
said last episode, you know,little T trauma is this idea we
were put in situations that weweren't ready to handle.
And what happens is as an adult,we look back on that situation
and we go, Oh, I know what Iwould do.
(11:39):
I know how to handle that, Iknow how to respond to that
situation, that bully, thatthing.
And we think with our adultbrain, like, okay, this is what
I do, and then we invalidate theyouth child brain in going,
Well, that was dumb.
I should have just handled thatdifferently, and it would have
been fine.
And that, like that kind oftransposing of our adult
(12:04):
intelligence versus our kidintelligence, and going, I
shouldn't have been overwhelmedby this.
Right.
Which isn't fair, right?
Like, because your child brain,your child abilities were
overwhelmed by this.
And you know, it's not thatyou've now learned how to handle
(12:25):
a hard situation or you learnhow to communicate to people
differently.
It's not that.
It's that in the moment youdidn't have those resources.
Sure.
Yeah.
So I mean, I know for me, a lotof the invalidation that I had
to get over was this issomething that everybody
(12:49):
experiences.
It's just not that big a dealbecause my traumas that I've
written up are not defined bybig T trauma, right?
They're not situations where mylife was in danger or I was
fearful of, you know, somebodyin my life dying or something
(13:09):
like that.
Those were not the situationsthat caused trauma for me, which
are by definition traumatic.
Um, but mine were lots of littletea traumas that nobody knew
about, nobody knew existed.
So for a long time in myjourney, I invalidated myself in
(13:34):
just going, it's not a big deal,right?
Everyone has to get throughthis, it's just a growing
experience.
I shouldn't be bothered by this.
And I'll even throw out therethe I think Christian answer has
been, and I and I've done thisof like, you just have to
(13:55):
forgive that person.
SPEAKER_00 (13:58):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_04 (14:00):
And I remember going through a process of thinking
about some specific stories andworking through like forgiving.
And I I don't want to say thatwas not important.
I think it it is, but it didn'tdo anything to change me.
(14:27):
It didn't do anything to changehow I thought about myself, how
I felt about myself, how I howmy story changed.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
Because it doesn't make sense of it.
SPEAKER_04 (14:38):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
Right?
Like forgiveness is a is abiblical principle.
It's a good life principle, evenif you're not a believer, to
forgive people.
And people always say, but it'smore for the person like the
person who needs to forgive,it's more for them, like to help
yourself.
(14:59):
But yes, forgiveness to me is avery different process than
being able to understand andhonor what happened.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
Although I do wonder if forgiveness should always be
accompanied by the other.
But anyways, it's not alwayswithin our grasp to understand
and honor.
SPEAKER_04 (15:22):
I think I went through that process in this
space of this is what I'msupposed to do as a Christian.
So I'm going to then forgive.
Rather than I'm going toactually feel the grief of this
story, I'm going to feel theloss that was created in this
story and then actually forgivethat real emotion.
(15:43):
Like, I don't think I did any ofthat.
Right.
Like that's a different part.
But I, you know, I think therewas a part of me that went,
okay, you forgave, so now youshouldn't be thinking about this
anymore.
You shouldn't be worried aboutthis story anymore.
And that's another place of thatinvalidating the significance of
our past.
SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
Right.
Well, and forgiveness isn'tthose things.
I mean, it's just such a yeah.
I mean, we could go down thisroad for a while.
It's such the way the church,you know, we say Christians, but
it's really the church, which iswhere Christians meet and find
community.
But like it's really theirpreaching that pushes that.
(16:27):
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (16:28):
I don't really think that's biblically what Jesus
says, but no, the biblical ideaof forgiveness is you know, not
to forget that somethinghappened, not to never bring it
up again, not to feel it.
It has nothing to do with that.
It has to do with I'm not gonnacollect on that debt.
(16:49):
I'm not gonna collect on what'sowed to me.
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (16:52):
Because I'm choosing to go, you know, I'm going to
forgive that that debt kind ofidea, right?
So um that's that biblical idea.
I think there is a significantemotional place for that.
I think the church has used itin order to force victims to
(17:17):
into a box of this is what thevictim has to do when anything
bad happens.
And they often have used it tohide really awful things.
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (17:30):
And that's not okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
I think too, when we see Jesusspeaking with people, we're kind
of going off in an offshoothere, but I think about the fact
that he speaks to people intheir stories.
Like he literally say more aboutthat.
SPEAKER_04 (17:49):
I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Okay.
It's because I'm amazing.
Just kidding.
Guys, this is what he gets everymorning.
Can you imagine?
Who wouldn't be excited aboutthat?
Um, he speaks to people in theirstories, like he references
their stories, but not in a waythat is um condemning or you're
(18:14):
horrible, or and of course, wehave to acknowledge that Jesus
is the perfect amount of loveand truth.
Like he gets a right every timefor every personality, for every
person that he created,basically.
Um, so he knows things that wecan not tap into.
Um, so he's got that going forhim, which is pretty big, but he
(18:38):
still speaks to them in youknow, the woman at the well,
right?
Like she said, he told meeverything I've ever done, and
that was comforting and right.
Um it was it was validating.
No, it was validating.
Okay, you see me.
Yeah, you don't just see whatI've done, and and he does that
(19:01):
with Peter.
I love his interactions withPeter, he does it with everyone,
yeah.
He literally does, he speaks tothem through their story, he
moves into the heart, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (19:12):
I think about Zacchaeus, right?
Like Zacchaeus was hated, not,but was curious about Jesus, and
so there was something enough inthat relationship that he was
able to have a dinner, hang outwith Zacchaeus, and get him to a
(19:32):
place of going, hey, if I'vecheated anyone, I want to make
it better.
Right?
I I'm you know, that's a wholeton of vulnerability.
So I, you know, I think you'reexactly right.
There's a place where Jesus wasable to hear people and help
them to feel seen.
And that's the differencebetween story invalidation and
(19:55):
story validation, right?
It's not that the change doesn'thappen, it's not that you know
it's it, but it is harderbecause we have to be able to
hold a really hard story.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
Yeah, and and it's at the same time, like Jesus is
sitting with it, validating it,but also, you know, saying
something of the sort of, and wedon't have any examples of this,
but I think through his actions,he's saying, but I want
something better for you.
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Right?
Like I I have better for you.
I understand this is where youare, this is where you've come
from, but there is better.
SPEAKER_04 (20:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
Right.
And not with uh you're stupid,why did you enter into that?
No, with understanding of like,right, because Jesus knows every
temptation that has come to man,so he knows what every person
that he talks with has faced.
Yes, but I have somethingbetter.
SPEAKER_04 (20:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
When you're ready.
SPEAKER_04 (21:00):
When you're ready, yeah.
I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (21:03):
I do think, you know, and this is in opposition,
right?
We were talking aboutinvalidating ourselves in our
own story.
I think what you're highlightingis the difference in how Jesus
handled other people's storiesinstead of how we sometimes end
up seeing spouses handle it bythings like, yeah, okay, I know
(21:24):
that happened.
Shouldn't you be over that now?
Or, you know, uh we've talkedabout like, okay, you're
triggered.
That's just your story talking.
So I know you're being mean nowbecause of your story, or I know
you're like triggered becauseyour story, like that kind of
throwing out doesn't help.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
So what would be helpful?
SPEAKER_04 (21:48):
Oh, well, maybe that's for a later episode.
No, I mean, I I mean, you know,in short answer, it is like we
started talking about how ourstories wrote things on our
heart, which are usuallyself-deprecating,
self-evaluating fears, hurts,things like that.
(22:11):
And our spouse, knowing whatthose are and where they show
up, then has a choice.
Do they either add to thoseself-deprecating things, or do
they speak to them in going,hey, I'm sure you're feeling
this right now, I don't want youto feel that way.
(22:33):
That doesn't mean, right?
Like if somebody, for instance,has a story that they're, you
know, on their heart is written,like, people are just gonna
leave me.
Like nobody cares, people aregonna leave me.
Right.
If you're having an argumentwith your spouse who has that
story, and you want to end theargument, like you want to be
(22:56):
like, I need a timeout, you'reprobably if you just go, Oh, I
can't talk anymore, right?
That story is going to gethugely activated.
This person's gonna leave me,right?
And then you're gonna see thefear out of that.
Then you're gonna see the story.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
Or you're a person who needs timeouts.
SPEAKER_04 (23:14):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
You can see how that would activate that a lot.
Not that we're not saying thosethings may not be necessary, but
it's how, yeah, probably I'msorry, jumping ahead of you.
SPEAKER_04 (23:26):
I'm not sure I understood that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
Like how, like, if you're someone who needs
timeouts and your spouse hasthat story, you saying, Hey, I
need, I need to go for a walkfor or I need to go for a drive,
that is going to push into andactivate that they're gonna
(23:48):
leave me.
SPEAKER_04 (23:49):
Right.
They're gonna leave me.
SPEAKER_00 (23:50):
What I was saying of like, that doesn't mean timeouts
may not still be necessary.
SPEAKER_04 (23:54):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
But it's what what do we do then when that is
necessary to help our spouseknow that's not what's happening
right now?
SPEAKER_04 (24:03):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
It's how do we recognize thatstory is happening, that that
idea, you know, is there,they're they're going to feel
this because you need somedistance.
That doesn't mean you're needingdistance needs to go away.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (24:20):
Right.
It it means how do I tell myspouse, hey, I love you, I need
some space, I'll be back later,and we can keep talking about
this.
Right.
Like now that's a very, youknow, thought out way to say it,
but there's easier even ways tosay that.
Right.
unknown (24:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (24:40):
So I'm not expecting even the calm, but there is
easier ways to know, oh, myspouse is gonna be feeling this,
but I still need to listen to myneeds.
That's fine.
And trying to match both.
That's the idea of how do youuse your spouse's story well.
SPEAKER_00 (24:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (24:58):
Um, this is more the how you're using it
inappropriately.
And we have heard people saythings like, oh, that's just
your story talking.
If we were, you know, doingsomething, dealing with
something, and I threw outthat's just your story talking,
how would you feel?
SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
How would I feel?
SPEAKER_02 (25:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
Okay, well, I think we're a bad example,
unfortunately.
Guys, we're a bad example.
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
Because I think we've gotten comfortable with
that kind of talk.
I think I might be a little likethat.
But because we're we're very um,we talk about our story a lot
and we're we do, but we probablyshould be cautious of how we we
should be because we care, but Id I think you and I are just so
(26:02):
have worked on we know wherethat's coming from.
SPEAKER_04 (26:05):
Kind of like flippant disregard for now is
only based on X, I think is partof the problem.
Like that would feel sure, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
I think for other people, I think that's very
true.
I think for us, like, I think Iwould just say there are nicer
ways to like approach that.
And um, but even sometimes I wasthinking about you will often do
like, hey, don't do that.
That will be your way to remindme.
Like, don't go down that road.
SPEAKER_04 (26:38):
Sure.
I think some people But I thinkit's usually that second
statement that I want you tohear.
It's hey, don't let that voicecome in because it's because
it's not true, right?
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
It's not but that's what I'm saying.
Like you and I tend to usephrases that probably I would
not advise other people to use.
SPEAKER_04 (26:56):
Don't do that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Um but I think things like, hey, why is that
coming up right now?
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
What happened?
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Like curious and caring more so than and maybe
they already know what happenedor what came up, but just like,
you know, speaking to that.
I just think there are ways tobe curious and kind and caring.
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
Even if you're frustrated.
Because I can see that a spousecan sometimes, especially if
someone has a very prevalenttheme that is showing up every
day, which we have worked withcouples where it is it is
prevalent.
And what I would just love youto know in that case is if it is
that prevalent, that means itwas that prevalent in their
(27:40):
life.
In their life.
SPEAKER_02 (27:41):
Yeah, that's very true.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
So, like, and I know that can still be frustrating,
but one thing I've alsoencouraged, which this could get
me in trouble, is you're angryat that, like how often it comes
up, how hard it is.
Maybe go through a process of ofhonor and honesty towards who
caused it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:02):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (28:03):
Right?
Like you're you're making yourspouse pay, you're angry with
them, yet where did that comefrom?
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
Right?
And that people would be like,oh, so I'm supposed to hate my
in-laws.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
To be able to honor them andlove them well, we have to be
able to honor the complexitiesand the fact that this hurt your
spouse so profoundly also needslike I think our spouse often
need for us to feel like we'rerising up against that.
SPEAKER_04 (28:34):
Sure.
Right.
So we've used this term, I don'tknow, three several times during
this podcast of holdingsomebody's story well.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (28:50):
What does that mean?
What does it mean to like hold astory?
SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
Um well.
I was like, do I be snarky?
No, we'll just go with goodstuff.
Um, hold it well.
It it I realize that feels likean elusive term.
SPEAKER_02 (29:09):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
But to me, it's to sit there, listen well.
They have your full attention.
You realize they're not justsharing about their grocery
shopping today, like, orsomething that happened at work,
like listening well and hearingwhat they are actually trying to
convey to you of how it impactedthem.
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Right.
And then, so it's that part,hearing it well, and then it's
what do we do with thatafterwards?
We don't just dismiss it.
We don't just, no, that's no bigdeal.
It's gosh, thank you for sharingthat with me.
Like that sounds reallydifficult.
It sounds really in line withwhat I know you've experienced.
Whatever, like validatingcomments, genuine validating
(29:54):
comments of I hear that.
That's really hard.
And then I think there's thefuture piece of you honor that
story.
SPEAKER_04 (30:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
We don't bring it up in a way that is um poking fun
or making belittling it,invalidating it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:15):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
Right?
Because probably it's brought upat home that way.
SPEAKER_04 (30:19):
Yep.
No, uh we've said that so manytimes that a lot of times our
stories did become family jokes.
Because people make jokes ofthings they're uncomfortable
about.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
I was just thinking about that though.
Your family doesn't tell jokes.
So your family was not thefamily.
No.
Well but are there stories theymade fun of that you now Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (30:47):
There's one that poppy seed one.
No.
Oh that's interesting.
Yes that is one that is onebutton although that was like
not I would say that was a verykid trauma but as I grew up that
didn't really impact me.
It was just really embarrassingand really embarrassing hard.
Yeah it was an embarrassingmoment.
SPEAKER_00 (31:06):
It wasn't it but it all of us have those too.
SPEAKER_04 (31:09):
Right.
It wasn't like a like I don'tthink that one specifically
wrote anything on my heart ifyou will um okay I the one that
I literally don't remember thisreally happening.
I only remember the retelling orthe joke about it.
Okay.
Um is the um babysitter one.
SPEAKER_00 (31:30):
Oh right?
SPEAKER_04 (31:31):
Like see now yeah I say it the babysitter rubbing
your back.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (31:35):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (31:35):
Yep.
And how I manipulated thebabysitter at like what two or
three or something like that.
No, it was older was it thanthat.
SPEAKER_00 (31:43):
You couldn't even really form full sentences.
SPEAKER_04 (31:45):
Yeah I don't remember how old but it was
before I remembered.
But the the joke was how Imanipulated the babysitter in to
sit there for like half an hourand rub my back and like that
you know that story is obviouslyabout me craving that touch from
(32:06):
somebody.
SPEAKER_00 (32:07):
And care.
SPEAKER_04 (32:08):
And care.
Right.
So heck yeah babysitter waswilling to do it like yeah that
is a situation of a joke kind ofin a family that is reflecting
something that's there.
You have several you havemultiple because your family did
that often.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
My family's a little bit more make fun of people kind
of family.
But you know what I was justreflecting on and this is
probably we're just having ourown reflection here guys with
you present the one that I thatyou're talking about which I'm
not afraid to share it on airbut I just we're not getting
into all that today um that isthat you were talking about that
(32:42):
was really hard for me that onewas never joked about no that's
not because my mom got caught ina lie.
SPEAKER_04 (32:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
Right?
And so like that was not onethat was ever brought up.
SPEAKER_04 (32:53):
Yeah that's interesting.
But a lot of my other ones yeslike I had the reputation of
like you were the trying to killmy siblings constantly bad kid
even though you were the middlechild or you were like the one
doing stuff to your siblingseven though it wasn't you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:11):
Well I'm sure I did sometimes but my siblings also
like in many situations where Ihave been blamed for something
my siblings have like stood upfor me and said that's not how
it happened.
But it doesn't matter it doesn'tmatter it's still um and that's
still me.
SPEAKER_04 (33:28):
That's kind of the example of not holding it right
but I the vision the picturethat I get of holding a story
well is that exactly what youstarted with you said at the
beginning of the podcast like ifyou hold a story well if
somebody feels like their storyis held well they will then go
(33:50):
deeper right and I think thereis always this place that it's
like can you hold can can you bethere can you hear this part and
then there is often more rightand it is a picture of safety is
how do I be safe to my partnerin this place of giving so that
(34:16):
when when they're talking aboutthis thing that happened how do
you show them you can be thereand take care of them and this
situation and not be shocked byit, not be upset by it and you
know help them with it because Ithink that's in in essence what
they're asking for.
(34:37):
And so often that is sovulnerable that it's actually I
think it's often easier to tellstrangers your stories sometimes
than it is telling your spouse.
Because if a ch stranger doesn'thold it well and I don't mean
just total stranger like on thestreet I'm thinking like when
(34:59):
when we've had situations oflike story groups and stuff like
that that somebody's coming intoa place in order to tell their
story.
They don't necessarily all of asudden know everybody there,
right?
So they're in essence strangersthey're going to become friends
but it's that place and I thinkit's easier to tell them that
(35:21):
hard stuff sometimes than yourspouse I yeah I can get that I
think it just depends on peoplebut I think I think you're
probably not wrong in somecases.
Because of this risk of howthey're gonna hold it where if a
(35:41):
stranger doesn't hold it wellyes it hurts but it's like okay
they didn't hold it wellwhatever I can't trust them as
with anything right like so itit does impact you it does
change things.
If your spouse doesn't hold astory well then what do you do?
Yeah right it gets really heavyand it's hard and it it's like
(36:01):
now I don't even know how I'msupposed to you know trust and
grow like so it it really isimportant and this is very
vulnerable obviously for forpartners.
SPEAKER_00 (36:13):
Well and think about it think about other people in
your life a really good friend asibling like and I think I hear
siblings talk about it a lotlike you tried to float a story
that impacted you as a kid toyour sibling right and you start
with some of it and then youstart to see oh this isn't like
(36:36):
right and then you back off andyou're like never mind like or
you just nope that's like all Iwas going to tell you right
because and I'm not saying everysibling does this by any means
but like they experienced itvery differently.
They don't they don't have thesame experiences they're not
able to be in touch with theirstory yet.
There are lots of reasons andthat can happen with our spouse
(36:58):
but we live with our spouse andif they're unable to meet us
there that feels very scary.
Correct right and so like Ithink that's yeah for sure it is
one of the most um delicateplaces that we maybe delicate
isn't the word I don't know whatthe word is but you know what
(37:19):
I'm saying.
SPEAKER_04 (37:19):
Yeah like yeah yeah and that often happens we start
to tell the story and it feelslike this isn't it's
insignificant this is stupidthis isn't being received well
correct this is dumb whatever itmay be right right yeah I think
that's really true and that'sthe goal as we're going through
(37:43):
this is how do you not do thatstuff?
How do you not diminish theirstory?
How do you tell your spouse Icare about this stuff and this
is why we call this like themissing intimacy in marriage
because one we do see it at theroot of so many arguments so
many disagreements and and thoseconflicts that like cycle um
(38:10):
maybe that's what we talk aboutnext time is how this shows up
in a day to day in a marriagebut um you know I so I we see it
in that but it's also this placeof deeper deeper understanding
of each other deeper care foreach other deeper love about you
know your spouse being able totruly understand this this level
(38:34):
of intimacy in their story.
Yeah so I agree that's the goalit's not an easy one to hold
each other's stories well toreally try your hardest not to
invalidate although if you haveinvalidated it's not the end of
the world it just means there'ssome repair that needs to happen
(38:56):
there and recognizing it andgoing okay I I really want to be
able to trust again and tryagain and being able to hold
that well.
So yeah that's why we've talkedso many times about how repair
is important because repair doesis a vulnerable way of saying
hey I know I messed this up yeahso yeah and I think too it's you
(39:20):
know it's a call obviously yourmarriage is the most important
relationship that you have to dothis in and then of course it
fans out to your children familyall that kind of stuff but like
it really is a call to listen topeople's stories well right like
(39:42):
I try now whenever someone isgiving me a nugget of their life
to stop and really hold it be agood listener right and hold it
yes because I do think umlistening and holding it are
very different.
SPEAKER_02 (39:58):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
We can listen to be the Christian that listened and
checked it off off the box whicha lot of churches do a lot of we
listen really well.
That's great but there is theplace of if nothing ever changes
then it's invalidation oflistening actually but anyway
that's a side note um but likewe're listening to actually hear
(40:21):
their heart and and sometimesthat catches me off guard.
Like sometimes it can be in aweird moment with someone I
don't really know.
SPEAKER_02 (40:29):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
I like to use the grocery store even though I
don't grocery shop guysInstacart is my my haven.
But when you're going somewhereand you're checking out
somewhere or unpaid sponsorship.
There you go or I'm at Goodwillmy other favorite place and
somebody strikes up aconversation and you're like
right just trying to meet thatperson where they are is huge.
(40:54):
It's huge and I think that heartchange posture can really change
how you look at your own storythose around you that kind of
thing.
Yeah that's not saying you don'thave normal life things.
Probably when I had my threeyoung toddles at the grocery
store that's so different.
SPEAKER_04 (41:16):
Listening to a story at that point you know it's very
based on how everybody's doingand where they are in the
grocery store and if I have tochase them down and no it's
incredibly different right I'mnot saying there's never times
where it's not and I a spacearound those spaces even in in
you know in the middle of thekitchen you're trying to cook
dinner your you know your spousecomes in and goes oh my gosh I
(41:36):
need to tell you how this thingactivated me like that may be
the time to go can we wait untillater so we can do this together
where I can actually hear it andthe kids aren't crazy and like
that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (41:50):
Or even better you say you hand over whatever
you're cooking to your spouseand say I really need to listen
well.
So here you go you can't youfinish cooking and I'll listen
while you talk.
SPEAKER_04 (42:03):
Okay yeah that that sounds no I I mean that sounds
like something I would do justso I don't have to cook um I I
just I do think you're bringingup a good point there is timing
in this and it there needs to beit needs to be understood that
there is good times to do it andnot but I think if we can
acknowledge like okay I'm notactually in a space to listen to
(42:27):
this or you know you missed itwith a friend you can go back to
that friend and go man I was notin a space to to hear that but I
did I did listen to your story.
I'd really love to come back toit and actually hear it with you
right and hold it with you.
So I I think there is places todo that well.
Yeah for sure for sure wellwe're gonna continue this
(42:51):
conversation I think next timewe'll dive into where does this
story stuff impact marriagestoday right like so we're
spending so much time talkingabout these things that happened
in our past how why why is thatsignificant like why how does
that impact a marriage today andwhat do we do about it how do we
lead towards healing in that sostay tuned to the next episode
(43:15):
and uh we will for sure keeptalking as we're in this journey
with you of still becoming oneso until next time I'm Brad
Aldrich and I'm Kate Aldrich bekind and take care of each other
(43:35):
Still Becoming One is aproduction of Aldrich Ministries
for more information about Bradand Kate's coaching ministry
courses and speakingopportunities you can find us at
Aldrich Ministries.com forpodcast show notes and links to
resources in all of our socialmedia be sure to visit us at
stillbecoming one dot com.
SPEAKER_03 (43:58):
And don't forget to like this episode wherever you
get your podcasts and be sure tofollow us to continue your
journey on Still Becoming One
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
We are Brad and Kate.
SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've
survived both dark times andexperienced restoration.
SPEAKER_03 (00:15):
Now, as a licensed marriage counselor and
relationship coaches, we helpcouples to regain hope and joy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
We invite you to journey with us as we are still
becoming one.
SPEAKER_03 (00:27):
Let's start the conversation.
SPEAKER_04 (00:31):
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Still BecomingOne.
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
Welcome back.
SPEAKER_04 (00:38):
You're chipper for Monday.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
Wait a second.
SPEAKER_04 (00:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
Yeah, so Mondays are not my favorite day, but I'm
always, ah, always is a strongword.
I'm often chipper.
SPEAKER_04 (00:50):
Everyone listening to this is like, it's not
Monday, but that's when we'rerecording.
SPEAKER_00 (00:54):
True.
But I'm often chipper in themornings.
No, you are.
Just too chipper for you.
SPEAKER_04 (01:00):
I need my coffee first.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (01:03):
Or I hit chipper.
Yeah, I just I have my coffeenow.
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
My body just says, well, if we're up, we might as
well act like we're up.
So then we just get the chipperpart going on.
SPEAKER_04 (01:15):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
But I have my London fog.
SPEAKER_04 (01:18):
Yep.
Kate is um definitely, I wasgonna say addicted.
You're not addicted.
You are definitely enjoy yourLondon fog tradition.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
What would make me addicted?
SPEAKER_04 (01:29):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
If I had like six a day.
SPEAKER_04 (01:31):
We did discover that people in London have no idea
what a London fog is.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Nope.
It's an American thing.
SPEAKER_04 (01:39):
It's an American thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
It's rude.
But it's it's um the way thatit's made is very British,
though.
Because it's Earl Grey tea.
unknown (01:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (01:49):
And then tea latte.
SPEAKER_00 (01:50):
Yep, a little vanilla syrup and then milk.
So it makes it look likeLondon's fog.
And Earl Grey, I mean it's gray.
So there you go.
I do enjoy it.
SPEAKER_04 (02:03):
It's like your barista for the day.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Your coffee and the moth.
We have a moth flying around inhere, and it almost just flew
into your coffee.
SPEAKER_04 (02:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Yes, for sure.
So what are we talking abouttoday?
SPEAKER_04 (02:18):
What are we talking about?
We're kind of continuing ourpath on understanding story work
and how it implies in marriage,how it can help marriages.
I think today actually we'regonna end up talking about how
it maybe hurts marriagessometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Oh, we don't really want to promote that, do we?
SPEAKER_04 (02:38):
No, but I think it's something I I mean, admittedly,
I did for a long time.
I think it's something a lot ofcouples do um in invalidating
their partner's story.
And because of that, I thinkit's important that we talk
about it.
And we've even seen this aswe've started working with
couples um and they've gotten toknow each other's stories a
(03:03):
little bit, that sometimes thefirst thing that comes out is
not exactly warm and fuzzy.
SPEAKER_00 (03:13):
Hmm.
Well, maybe it's not, I Iwouldn't go that extreme, but
many times it's just like welisten and we're like, oh, okay.
Right.
And in our head, we're thinking,like, what's the big deal?
All that like I don't know thateverybody is necessarily like um
(03:36):
what'd be the word, likeaggressive back towards it.
Like that's dumb or that, right?
It's not, it's but it's notbeing able to to actually hear
the heart of what how thatimpacted yeah their spouse.
SPEAKER_04 (03:49):
And I think truly some of this what's coming where
it's coming from is this idea.
I think almost all the timesthat we've worked with couples
in story work.
Maybe there's a few exceptionsto this, but most of the time
the partner knew the facts of astory.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
Many times, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (04:11):
Right?
They they knew, oh yeah, yeah,yeah.
I remember you saying thathappened.
Like kind of so it's not likethe topic was a secret, but I
think a lot of times theemotions, the content, how that
story shaped somebody, that'ssomething that they've never
even considered before.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
Right.
And I do think, however, youshared it, probably most people
were talking about not sharingit in a storywork manner.
If you share it once and you geta response that doesn't feel
great or safe, then at least Iknow this to be true for myself
(04:55):
and probably for you as well.
Um, and you can share, but likethen it doesn't feel safe to
ever touch base on that subjectagain.
SPEAKER_04 (05:04):
Right.
Kind of thing.
And that's exactly what I mean.
We kind of something about itinvalidates the story.
And you know, I I mean, I cansay I certainly did this to you.
Like you had told me a storyearly on that I I mean, I'll
(05:25):
just say it.
Like, I I took the side of yourmom.
Like when I heard the story, Iwas like, oh yeah, but you
probably doesn't recognizeWilliam what she would went
through.
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
And I didn't feel like you took the side of my
mom.
I just felt like you thought itwas not a big deal and get over
it kind of thing.
But interesting.
SPEAKER_04 (05:45):
Uh yeah, I I mean, I'm sure I I'm sure I probably
communicated that too.
Like, why is this such a bigdeal?
But I think I was like, well,you don't understand how, like,
and tried to defend some thingsthat really hurt you in this way
of just absolutely not hearingthe pain, the hurt, the what
(06:11):
this did to you, the the placeof it feeling alone to you.
Like, I don't think I supported,listened to any of that.
I invalidated a lot of that bykind of saying it's not that big
a deal, and you know, oh, yourmom wasn't trying to do XYZ,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Like kind of thing.
And I think that but she wastrying to.
Well, that's a part of thestory.
SPEAKER_04 (06:38):
That's part of the story, right?
Exactly.
But it it irregardless of whatyour mom did or didn't do, what
your like the reasons behindher, whether she had a reason
for it or not, doesn't matter.
Like just the place ofinvalidating the fact that this
(06:58):
thing hurt you is it, I mean,that's our ex one of our
examples of how I did that earlyon.
Um, and just kind of yeah, okay.
And then so then it took a lotof years and us a lot of work
for you to come back to thatstory and be able to share it in
a way that I was able to hearthe actual little kid emotions.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Hmm.
I had to share it in a way thatyou were able to hear.
That's even interesting, rightthere, that you said that.
SPEAKER_04 (07:31):
Well, no.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
I don't think it's that.
I think it's you being able tolisten in a way.
SPEAKER_04 (07:36):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (07:36):
Right?
SPEAKER_04 (07:37):
Correct.
I I mean, I think this is whathappens all the time is people
do share the details of theirstories.
Well, because sharing theemotions of their stories.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Right, because we share the details first to see
if someone can even hold that,right?
And when they can't hold thatwell, why would we share the
emotions?
Because they're deeper and muchmore personal and vulnerable and
I think that is entirelyaccurate.
SPEAKER_04 (08:10):
I think that is I I think I'm trying to say this,
like I think that is also howwomen hold and retell stories.
I think men don't even realizethere's emotion in the story
(08:31):
until they're encouraged in away to actually find it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Well, okay.
I and yes, in this generation ofAmericans, women are allowed and
somewhat more encouraged withtheir emotions.
But I think like looking back,thinking about myself, I think I
(08:58):
could tell you there was greathurt.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
But that's probably it.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
I'm not sure I could have gone deeper because I was
never encouraged to go deeper.
No one in my life acknowledgedthe pain of that story.
No one, you know, not even theperson causing it, apologize.
Like there's just no so I thinkI don't know that I could have
(09:27):
dove further because there wasno permission to do so.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
So we have to like think about all those dynamics
as well, right?
And how they impact things.
SPEAKER_04 (09:38):
Do you think, like, as I was talking through this
topic of invalidating our ourstories, there's two sides of
that.
There's certainly what I did ofinvalidating and ending up
taking the side of the oppositeside of the story and going, oh,
that shouldn't be a big deal, orwell, you know, kind of thing.
That's certainly invalidating.
There's also that side that Iknow I did in my own stories for
(10:02):
a long time in going, oh, Ishould just get over that.
That's just not that big a deal.
Why, why is that even a thingthat keeps coming up for me?
Like, and and kind of trying totell ourselves that we're being
babies about it or you know,whatever, the that it just
shouldn't matter.
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
Which is kind of an ironic statement.
We're being babies about it.
It's not quite accurate, but weare being kids.
And that's the thing.
Like I think for me, learning tovalidate, of course,
understanding story was huge,but then being able to actually
(10:45):
envision, sit with that littlegirl or little boy for you, like
thinking about you, and beingable to sit with him and be
like, oh my goodness, this isthis is a lot, this is hard.
I think that's the reality.
We we can't sit with the adultversion, although we are, in
(11:09):
sense, I found like I feel likegoing in circles, but like today
we're sitting with the adultversion as people, but we're
also sitting with the kid whoexperienced it.
SPEAKER_04 (11:17):
Yeah.
I mean, one of the ways I saythat all the time is I think we
said last episode, you know,little T trauma is this idea we
were put in situations that weweren't ready to handle.
And what happens is as an adult,we look back on that situation
and we go, Oh, I know what Iwould do.
(11:39):
I know how to handle that, Iknow how to respond to that
situation, that bully, thatthing.
And we think with our adultbrain, like, okay, this is what
I do, and then we invalidate theyouth child brain in going,
Well, that was dumb.
I should have just handled thatdifferently, and it would have
been fine.
And that, like that kind oftransposing of our adult
(12:04):
intelligence versus our kidintelligence, and going, I
shouldn't have been overwhelmedby this.
Right.
Which isn't fair, right?
Like, because your child brain,your child abilities were
overwhelmed by this.
And you know, it's not thatyou've now learned how to handle
(12:25):
a hard situation or you learnhow to communicate to people
differently.
It's not that.
It's that in the moment youdidn't have those resources.
Sure.
Yeah.
So I mean, I know for me, a lotof the invalidation that I had
to get over was this issomething that everybody
(12:49):
experiences.
It's just not that big a dealbecause my traumas that I've
written up are not defined bybig T trauma, right?
They're not situations where mylife was in danger or I was
fearful of, you know, somebodyin my life dying or something
(13:09):
like that.
Those were not the situationsthat caused trauma for me, which
are by definition traumatic.
Um, but mine were lots of littletea traumas that nobody knew
about, nobody knew existed.
So for a long time in myjourney, I invalidated myself in
(13:34):
just going, it's not a big deal,right?
Everyone has to get throughthis, it's just a growing
experience.
I shouldn't be bothered by this.
And I'll even throw out therethe I think Christian answer has
been, and I and I've done thisof like, you just have to
(13:55):
forgive that person.
SPEAKER_00 (13:58):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_04 (14:00):
And I remember going through a process of thinking
about some specific stories andworking through like forgiving.
And I I don't want to say thatwas not important.
I think it it is, but it didn'tdo anything to change me.
(14:27):
It didn't do anything to changehow I thought about myself, how
I felt about myself, how I howmy story changed.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
Because it doesn't make sense of it.
SPEAKER_04 (14:38):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
Right?
Like forgiveness is a is abiblical principle.
It's a good life principle, evenif you're not a believer, to
forgive people.
And people always say, but it'smore for the person like the
person who needs to forgive,it's more for them, like to help
yourself.
(14:59):
But yes, forgiveness to me is avery different process than
being able to understand andhonor what happened.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
Although I do wonder if forgiveness should always be
accompanied by the other.
But anyways, it's not alwayswithin our grasp to understand
and honor.
SPEAKER_04 (15:22):
I think I went through that process in this
space of this is what I'msupposed to do as a Christian.
So I'm going to then forgive.
Rather than I'm going toactually feel the grief of this
story, I'm going to feel theloss that was created in this
story and then actually forgivethat real emotion.
(15:43):
Like, I don't think I did any ofthat.
Right.
Like that's a different part.
But I, you know, I think therewas a part of me that went,
okay, you forgave, so now youshouldn't be thinking about this
anymore.
You shouldn't be worried aboutthis story anymore.
And that's another place of thatinvalidating the significance of
our past.
SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
Right.
Well, and forgiveness isn'tthose things.
I mean, it's just such a yeah.
I mean, we could go down thisroad for a while.
It's such the way the church,you know, we say Christians, but
it's really the church, which iswhere Christians meet and find
community.
But like it's really theirpreaching that pushes that.
(16:27):
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (16:28):
I don't really think that's biblically what Jesus
says, but no, the biblical ideaof forgiveness is you know, not
to forget that somethinghappened, not to never bring it
up again, not to feel it.
It has nothing to do with that.
It has to do with I'm not gonnacollect on that debt.
(16:49):
I'm not gonna collect on what'sowed to me.
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (16:52):
Because I'm choosing to go, you know, I'm going to
forgive that that debt kind ofidea, right?
So um that's that biblical idea.
I think there is a significantemotional place for that.
I think the church has used itin order to force victims to
(17:17):
into a box of this is what thevictim has to do when anything
bad happens.
And they often have used it tohide really awful things.
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (17:30):
And that's not okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
I think too, when we see Jesusspeaking with people, we're kind
of going off in an offshoothere, but I think about the fact
that he speaks to people intheir stories.
Like he literally say more aboutthat.
SPEAKER_04 (17:49):
I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Okay.
It's because I'm amazing.
Just kidding.
Guys, this is what he gets everymorning.
Can you imagine?
Who wouldn't be excited aboutthat?
Um, he speaks to people in theirstories, like he references
their stories, but not in a waythat is um condemning or you're
(18:14):
horrible, or and of course, wehave to acknowledge that Jesus
is the perfect amount of loveand truth.
Like he gets a right every timefor every personality, for every
person that he created,basically.
Um, so he knows things that wecan not tap into.
Um, so he's got that going forhim, which is pretty big, but he
(18:38):
still speaks to them in youknow, the woman at the well,
right?
Like she said, he told meeverything I've ever done, and
that was comforting and right.
Um it was it was validating.
No, it was validating.
Okay, you see me.
Yeah, you don't just see whatI've done, and and he does that
(19:01):
with Peter.
I love his interactions withPeter, he does it with everyone,
yeah.
He literally does, he speaks tothem through their story, he
moves into the heart, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (19:12):
I think about Zacchaeus, right?
Like Zacchaeus was hated, not,but was curious about Jesus, and
so there was something enough inthat relationship that he was
able to have a dinner, hang outwith Zacchaeus, and get him to a
(19:32):
place of going, hey, if I'vecheated anyone, I want to make
it better.
Right?
I I'm you know, that's a wholeton of vulnerability.
So I, you know, I think you'reexactly right.
There's a place where Jesus wasable to hear people and help
them to feel seen.
And that's the differencebetween story invalidation and
(19:55):
story validation, right?
It's not that the change doesn'thappen, it's not that you know
it's it, but it is harderbecause we have to be able to
hold a really hard story.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
Yeah, and and it's at the same time, like Jesus is
sitting with it, validating it,but also, you know, saying
something of the sort of, and wedon't have any examples of this,
but I think through his actions,he's saying, but I want
something better for you.
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Right?
Like I I have better for you.
I understand this is where youare, this is where you've come
from, but there is better.
SPEAKER_04 (20:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
Right.
And not with uh you're stupid,why did you enter into that?
No, with understanding of like,right, because Jesus knows every
temptation that has come to man,so he knows what every person
that he talks with has faced.
Yes, but I have somethingbetter.
SPEAKER_04 (20:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
When you're ready.
SPEAKER_04 (21:00):
When you're ready, yeah.
I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (21:03):
I do think, you know, and this is in opposition,
right?
We were talking aboutinvalidating ourselves in our
own story.
I think what you're highlightingis the difference in how Jesus
handled other people's storiesinstead of how we sometimes end
up seeing spouses handle it bythings like, yeah, okay, I know
(21:24):
that happened.
Shouldn't you be over that now?
Or, you know, uh we've talkedabout like, okay, you're
triggered.
That's just your story talking.
So I know you're being mean nowbecause of your story, or I know
you're like triggered becauseyour story, like that kind of
throwing out doesn't help.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
So what would be helpful?
SPEAKER_04 (21:48):
Oh, well, maybe that's for a later episode.
No, I mean, I I mean, you know,in short answer, it is like we
started talking about how ourstories wrote things on our
heart, which are usuallyself-deprecating,
self-evaluating fears, hurts,things like that.
(22:11):
And our spouse, knowing whatthose are and where they show
up, then has a choice.
Do they either add to thoseself-deprecating things, or do
they speak to them in going,hey, I'm sure you're feeling
this right now, I don't want youto feel that way.
(22:33):
That doesn't mean, right?
Like if somebody, for instance,has a story that they're, you
know, on their heart is written,like, people are just gonna
leave me.
Like nobody cares, people aregonna leave me.
Right.
If you're having an argumentwith your spouse who has that
story, and you want to end theargument, like you want to be
(22:56):
like, I need a timeout, you'reprobably if you just go, Oh, I
can't talk anymore, right?
That story is going to gethugely activated.
This person's gonna leave me,right?
And then you're gonna see thefear out of that.
Then you're gonna see the story.
SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
Or you're a person who needs timeouts.
SPEAKER_04 (23:14):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
You can see how that would activate that a lot.
Not that we're not saying thosethings may not be necessary, but
it's how, yeah, probably I'msorry, jumping ahead of you.
SPEAKER_04 (23:26):
I'm not sure I understood that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
Like how, like, if you're someone who needs
timeouts and your spouse hasthat story, you saying, Hey, I
need, I need to go for a walkfor or I need to go for a drive,
that is going to push into andactivate that they're gonna
(23:48):
leave me.
SPEAKER_04 (23:49):
Right.
They're gonna leave me.
SPEAKER_00 (23:50):
What I was saying of like, that doesn't mean timeouts
may not still be necessary.
SPEAKER_04 (23:54):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
But it's what what do we do then when that is
necessary to help our spouseknow that's not what's happening
right now?
SPEAKER_04 (24:03):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
It's how do we recognize thatstory is happening, that that
idea, you know, is there,they're they're going to feel
this because you need somedistance.
That doesn't mean you're needingdistance needs to go away.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (24:20):
Right.
It it means how do I tell myspouse, hey, I love you, I need
some space, I'll be back later,and we can keep talking about
this.
Right.
Like now that's a very, youknow, thought out way to say it,
but there's easier even ways tosay that.
Right.
unknown (24:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (24:40):
So I'm not expecting even the calm, but there is
easier ways to know, oh, myspouse is gonna be feeling this,
but I still need to listen to myneeds.
That's fine.
And trying to match both.
That's the idea of how do youuse your spouse's story well.
SPEAKER_00 (24:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (24:58):
Um, this is more the how you're using it
inappropriately.
And we have heard people saythings like, oh, that's just
your story talking.
If we were, you know, doingsomething, dealing with
something, and I threw outthat's just your story talking,
how would you feel?
SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
How would I feel?
SPEAKER_02 (25:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
Okay, well, I think we're a bad example,
unfortunately.
Guys, we're a bad example.
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
Because I think we've gotten comfortable with
that kind of talk.
I think I might be a little likethat.
But because we're we're very um,we talk about our story a lot
and we're we do, but we probablyshould be cautious of how we we
should be because we care, but Id I think you and I are just so
(26:02):
have worked on we know wherethat's coming from.
SPEAKER_04 (26:05):
Kind of like flippant disregard for now is
only based on X, I think is partof the problem.
Like that would feel sure, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
I think for other people, I think that's very
true.
I think for us, like, I think Iwould just say there are nicer
ways to like approach that.
And um, but even sometimes I wasthinking about you will often do
like, hey, don't do that.
That will be your way to remindme.
Like, don't go down that road.
SPEAKER_04 (26:38):
Sure.
I think some people But I thinkit's usually that second
statement that I want you tohear.
It's hey, don't let that voicecome in because it's because
it's not true, right?
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
It's not but that's what I'm saying.
Like you and I tend to usephrases that probably I would
not advise other people to use.
SPEAKER_04 (26:56):
Don't do that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Um but I think things like, hey, why is that
coming up right now?
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
What happened?
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Like curious and caring more so than and maybe
they already know what happenedor what came up, but just like,
you know, speaking to that.
I just think there are ways tobe curious and kind and caring.
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
Even if you're frustrated.
Because I can see that a spousecan sometimes, especially if
someone has a very prevalenttheme that is showing up every
day, which we have worked withcouples where it is it is
prevalent.
And what I would just love youto know in that case is if it is
that prevalent, that means itwas that prevalent in their
(27:40):
life.
In their life.
SPEAKER_02 (27:41):
Yeah, that's very true.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
So, like, and I know that can still be frustrating,
but one thing I've alsoencouraged, which this could get
me in trouble, is you're angryat that, like how often it comes
up, how hard it is.
Maybe go through a process of ofhonor and honesty towards who
caused it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:02):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (28:03):
Right?
Like you're you're making yourspouse pay, you're angry with
them, yet where did that comefrom?
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
Right?
And that people would be like,oh, so I'm supposed to hate my
in-laws.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
To be able to honor them andlove them well, we have to be
able to honor the complexitiesand the fact that this hurt your
spouse so profoundly also needslike I think our spouse often
need for us to feel like we'rerising up against that.
SPEAKER_04 (28:34):
Sure.
Right.
So we've used this term, I don'tknow, three several times during
this podcast of holdingsomebody's story well.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (28:50):
What does that mean?
What does it mean to like hold astory?
SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
Um well.
I was like, do I be snarky?
No, we'll just go with goodstuff.
Um, hold it well.
It it I realize that feels likean elusive term.
SPEAKER_02 (29:09):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
But to me, it's to sit there, listen well.
They have your full attention.
You realize they're not justsharing about their grocery
shopping today, like, orsomething that happened at work,
like listening well and hearingwhat they are actually trying to
convey to you of how it impactedthem.
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Right.
And then, so it's that part,hearing it well, and then it's
what do we do with thatafterwards?
We don't just dismiss it.
We don't just, no, that's no bigdeal.
It's gosh, thank you for sharingthat with me.
Like that sounds reallydifficult.
It sounds really in line withwhat I know you've experienced.
Whatever, like validatingcomments, genuine validating
(29:54):
comments of I hear that.
That's really hard.
And then I think there's thefuture piece of you honor that
story.
SPEAKER_04 (30:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
We don't bring it up in a way that is um poking fun
or making belittling it,invalidating it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:15):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
Right?
Because probably it's brought upat home that way.
SPEAKER_04 (30:19):
Yep.
No, uh we've said that so manytimes that a lot of times our
stories did become family jokes.
Because people make jokes ofthings they're uncomfortable
about.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
I was just thinking about that though.
Your family doesn't tell jokes.
So your family was not thefamily.
No.
Well but are there stories theymade fun of that you now Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (30:47):
There's one that poppy seed one.
No.
Oh that's interesting.
Yes that is one that is onebutton although that was like
not I would say that was a verykid trauma but as I grew up that
didn't really impact me.
It was just really embarrassingand really embarrassing hard.
Yeah it was an embarrassingmoment.
SPEAKER_00 (31:06):
It wasn't it but it all of us have those too.
SPEAKER_04 (31:09):
Right.
It wasn't like a like I don'tthink that one specifically
wrote anything on my heart ifyou will um okay I the one that
I literally don't remember thisreally happening.
I only remember the retelling orthe joke about it.
Okay.
Um is the um babysitter one.
SPEAKER_00 (31:30):
Oh right?
SPEAKER_04 (31:31):
Like see now yeah I say it the babysitter rubbing
your back.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (31:35):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (31:35):
Yep.
And how I manipulated thebabysitter at like what two or
three or something like that.
No, it was older was it thanthat.
SPEAKER_00 (31:43):
You couldn't even really form full sentences.
SPEAKER_04 (31:45):
Yeah I don't remember how old but it was
before I remembered.
But the the joke was how Imanipulated the babysitter in to
sit there for like half an hourand rub my back and like that
you know that story is obviouslyabout me craving that touch from
(32:06):
somebody.
SPEAKER_00 (32:07):
And care.
SPEAKER_04 (32:08):
And care.
Right.
So heck yeah babysitter waswilling to do it like yeah that
is a situation of a joke kind ofin a family that is reflecting
something that's there.
You have several you havemultiple because your family did
that often.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
My family's a little bit more make fun of people kind
of family.
But you know what I was justreflecting on and this is
probably we're just having ourown reflection here guys with
you present the one that I thatyou're talking about which I'm
not afraid to share it on airbut I just we're not getting
into all that today um that isthat you were talking about that
(32:42):
was really hard for me that onewas never joked about no that's
not because my mom got caught ina lie.
SPEAKER_04 (32:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
Right?
And so like that was not onethat was ever brought up.
SPEAKER_04 (32:53):
Yeah that's interesting.
But a lot of my other ones yeslike I had the reputation of
like you were the trying to killmy siblings constantly bad kid
even though you were the middlechild or you were like the one
doing stuff to your siblingseven though it wasn't you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:11):
Well I'm sure I did sometimes but my siblings also
like in many situations where Ihave been blamed for something
my siblings have like stood upfor me and said that's not how
it happened.
But it doesn't matter it doesn'tmatter it's still um and that's
still me.
SPEAKER_04 (33:28):
That's kind of the example of not holding it right
but I the vision the picturethat I get of holding a story
well is that exactly what youstarted with you said at the
beginning of the podcast like ifyou hold a story well if
somebody feels like their storyis held well they will then go
(33:50):
deeper right and I think thereis always this place that it's
like can you hold can can you bethere can you hear this part and
then there is often more rightand it is a picture of safety is
how do I be safe to my partnerin this place of giving so that
(34:16):
when when they're talking aboutthis thing that happened how do
you show them you can be thereand take care of them and this
situation and not be shocked byit, not be upset by it and you
know help them with it because Ithink that's in in essence what
they're asking for.
(34:37):
And so often that is sovulnerable that it's actually I
think it's often easier to tellstrangers your stories sometimes
than it is telling your spouse.
Because if a ch stranger doesn'thold it well and I don't mean
just total stranger like on thestreet I'm thinking like when
(34:59):
when we've had situations oflike story groups and stuff like
that that somebody's coming intoa place in order to tell their
story.
They don't necessarily all of asudden know everybody there,
right?
So they're in essence strangersthey're going to become friends
but it's that place and I thinkit's easier to tell them that
(35:21):
hard stuff sometimes than yourspouse I yeah I can get that I
think it just depends on peoplebut I think I think you're
probably not wrong in somecases.
Because of this risk of howthey're gonna hold it where if a
(35:41):
stranger doesn't hold it wellyes it hurts but it's like okay
they didn't hold it wellwhatever I can't trust them as
with anything right like so itit does impact you it does
change things.
If your spouse doesn't hold astory well then what do you do?
Yeah right it gets really heavyand it's hard and it it's like
(36:01):
now I don't even know how I'msupposed to you know trust and
grow like so it it really isimportant and this is very
vulnerable obviously for forpartners.
SPEAKER_00 (36:13):
Well and think about it think about other people in
your life a really good friend asibling like and I think I hear
siblings talk about it a lotlike you tried to float a story
that impacted you as a kid toyour sibling right and you start
with some of it and then youstart to see oh this isn't like
(36:36):
right and then you back off andyou're like never mind like or
you just nope that's like all Iwas going to tell you right
because and I'm not saying everysibling does this by any means
but like they experienced itvery differently.
They don't they don't have thesame experiences they're not
able to be in touch with theirstory yet.
There are lots of reasons andthat can happen with our spouse
(36:58):
but we live with our spouse andif they're unable to meet us
there that feels very scary.
Correct right and so like Ithink that's yeah for sure it is
one of the most um delicateplaces that we maybe delicate
isn't the word I don't know whatthe word is but you know what
(37:19):
I'm saying.
SPEAKER_04 (37:19):
Yeah like yeah yeah and that often happens we start
to tell the story and it feelslike this isn't it's
insignificant this is stupidthis isn't being received well
correct this is dumb whatever itmay be right right yeah I think
that's really true and that'sthe goal as we're going through
(37:43):
this is how do you not do thatstuff?
How do you not diminish theirstory?
How do you tell your spouse Icare about this stuff and this
is why we call this like themissing intimacy in marriage
because one we do see it at theroot of so many arguments so
many disagreements and and thoseconflicts that like cycle um
(38:10):
maybe that's what we talk aboutnext time is how this shows up
in a day to day in a marriagebut um you know I so I we see it
in that but it's also this placeof deeper deeper understanding
of each other deeper care foreach other deeper love about you
know your spouse being able totruly understand this this level
(38:34):
of intimacy in their story.
Yeah so I agree that's the goalit's not an easy one to hold
each other's stories well toreally try your hardest not to
invalidate although if you haveinvalidated it's not the end of
the world it just means there'ssome repair that needs to happen
(38:56):
there and recognizing it andgoing okay I I really want to be
able to trust again and tryagain and being able to hold
that well.
So yeah that's why we've talkedso many times about how repair
is important because repair doesis a vulnerable way of saying
hey I know I messed this up yeahso yeah and I think too it's you
(39:20):
know it's a call obviously yourmarriage is the most important
relationship that you have to dothis in and then of course it
fans out to your children familyall that kind of stuff but like
it really is a call to listen topeople's stories well right like
(39:42):
I try now whenever someone isgiving me a nugget of their life
to stop and really hold it be agood listener right and hold it
yes because I do think umlistening and holding it are
very different.
SPEAKER_02 (39:58):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
We can listen to be the Christian that listened and
checked it off off the box whicha lot of churches do a lot of we
listen really well.
That's great but there is theplace of if nothing ever changes
then it's invalidation oflistening actually but anyway
that's a side note um but likewe're listening to actually hear
(40:21):
their heart and and sometimesthat catches me off guard.
Like sometimes it can be in aweird moment with someone I
don't really know.
SPEAKER_02 (40:29):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
I like to use the grocery store even though I
don't grocery shop guysInstacart is my my haven.
But when you're going somewhereand you're checking out
somewhere or unpaid sponsorship.
There you go or I'm at Goodwillmy other favorite place and
somebody strikes up aconversation and you're like
right just trying to meet thatperson where they are is huge.
(40:54):
It's huge and I think that heartchange posture can really change
how you look at your own storythose around you that kind of
thing.
Yeah that's not saying you don'thave normal life things.
Probably when I had my threeyoung toddles at the grocery
store that's so different.
SPEAKER_04 (41:16):
Listening to a story at that point you know it's very
based on how everybody's doingand where they are in the
grocery store and if I have tochase them down and no it's
incredibly different right I'mnot saying there's never times
where it's not and I a spacearound those spaces even in in
you know in the middle of thekitchen you're trying to cook
dinner your you know your spousecomes in and goes oh my gosh I
(41:36):
need to tell you how this thingactivated me like that may be
the time to go can we wait untillater so we can do this together
where I can actually hear it andthe kids aren't crazy and like
that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (41:50):
Or even better you say you hand over whatever
you're cooking to your spouseand say I really need to listen
well.
So here you go you can't youfinish cooking and I'll listen
while you talk.
SPEAKER_04 (42:03):
Okay yeah that that sounds no I I mean that sounds
like something I would do justso I don't have to cook um I I
just I do think you're bringingup a good point there is timing
in this and it there needs to beit needs to be understood that
there is good times to do it andnot but I think if we can
acknowledge like okay I'm notactually in a space to listen to
(42:27):
this or you know you missed itwith a friend you can go back to
that friend and go man I was notin a space to to hear that but I
did I did listen to your story.
I'd really love to come back toit and actually hear it with you
right and hold it with you.
So I I think there is places todo that well.
Yeah for sure for sure wellwe're gonna continue this
(42:51):
conversation I think next timewe'll dive into where does this
story stuff impact marriagestoday right like so we're
spending so much time talkingabout these things that happened
in our past how why why is thatsignificant like why how does
that impact a marriage today andwhat do we do about it how do we
lead towards healing in that sostay tuned to the next episode
(43:15):
and uh we will for sure keeptalking as we're in this journey
with you of still becoming oneso until next time I'm Brad
Aldrich and I'm Kate Aldrich bekind and take care of each other
(43:35):
Still Becoming One is aproduction of Aldrich Ministries
for more information about Bradand Kate's coaching ministry
courses and speakingopportunities you can find us at
Aldrich Ministries.com forpodcast show notes and links to
resources in all of our socialmedia be sure to visit us at
stillbecoming one dot com.
SPEAKER_03 (43:58):
And don't forget to like this episode wherever you
get your podcasts and be sure tofollow us to continue your
journey on Still Becoming One
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