June 18, 2025 • 39 mins
What happens when past wounds collide in marriage? Steve and Lisa Call, co-authors with Dan Allender of The Deep-Rooted Marriage, founders of Reconnect Institute, and married for over 35 years, reveal how childhood stories unconsciously shape our most intimate relationships. Through vulnerable personal examples, Steve shares how his response of "I'm fine" masks deeper feelings of abandonment stemming from an emotionally unavailable mother. Lisa explains how these patterns remained invisible until they began exploring their stories together, creating a profound transformation in their marriage after decades together.
Ready to transform your relationship by understanding the stories you both bring to marriage? This conversation will help you recognize patterns, build emotional safety, and cultivate the curiosity needed for genuine connection.
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Episode Transcript
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Brad Aldrich (00:04):
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
We are Brad and Kate.
Kate Aldrich (00:10):
In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've
survived both dark times andexperienced restoration.
Brad Aldrich (00:15):
Now as a licensed marriage counselor and
relationship coaches.
We help couples to regain hopeand joy.
Kate Aldrich (00:23):
We invite you to journey with us, as we are still
becoming one.
Brad Aldrich (00:27):
Let's start the conversation.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toStill Becoming One.
Welcome back.
We are really glad that you'rehere today.
I think we've got a reallyexcellent show for you.
I think we've got a reallyexcellent show for you.
We're excited to talk to ourguests Steve and Lisa Call.
(00:48):
Steve and Lisa have beenmarried for more than 35 years.
They have three adult kids andthey are the founders of the
ReConnect Institute that arefocusing on offering resources
and tools for cultivatingmeaningful connection in
marriage, and Steve and DanAllender wrote the book the
(01:13):
Deep-Rooted Marriage.
I understand, Lisa, you helpedquite a bit as well in some of
those insights, so we want tohear more about the book and
those resources.
It's actually something that wereally enjoyed in seeing.
Well, we often end upcriticizing some marriage books
sometimes because they go totechniques versus actual
(01:37):
anything of repair.
I think it's hard to find realmarriage books that actually
bring about, like some, learningthat's going to move people
into a deeper relationship.
So, I just want to start even.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how it came about, how the
book came about?
Steve Call (01:57):
Sure Well.
Thanks, brad and Kate, forhaving us and really appreciate
your work with couples as well.
Lisa Call (02:03):
Yeah, we're really glad to be here.
Steve Call (02:04):
Yeah, it's a deep passion for us and obviously a
deep passion for you guys, sothank you.
You know, writing the book was,I would just say, a long-term
process.
Dan and I have taught atSeattle School of Theology and
Psychology for 20 plus years andI would say probably over the
last decade, as we taught aparticular class called marriage
(02:24):
and family to therapists orgrad students becoming
therapists.
Uh, that that was the beginningplace of bringing in some of
the material, but I but I alsosay much of what we bring in the
writing is through a reflectionon our own marriage and our
work with couplestherapeutically.
Dan and Becky and Lisa and I dothese intensives with couples
(02:46):
and I think we just found somereally common themes throughout
most of the couples that eitherwe work with or we come
alongside with that that mightbe struggling in their marriage,
and it was a.
It was a real joy to write.
I'll have to say that, and partof the reason there was joy for
us as we, we got to do ittogether.
I got to do the writingtogether and we were on the same
(03:06):
page with being able tointegrate our own story and our
own story of marriage, but alsoour own family of origin story
into the writing, and so it.
It was a fun journey, gratefulfor to be done.
Lisa Call (03:20):
I don't know if I'd call it a fun journey, but it's
definitely maybe rewarding.
Brad Aldrich (03:27):
It was.
Lisa Call (03:27):
It was a struggle, you know, and but I think for us
, Probably about 25 years ago,is when we began to dive into
our our stories a little bitmore.
And you know, Steve's beendoing this work as a
psychologist and a professor andI was just not as involved in
that part of it.
But then, as we began to diveinto our own stories of origin,
(03:51):
we found the impact on ourmarriage just so incredibly
profound that it just became soobvious we want other people to
experience this, because thisisn't rocket science.
This is like we're putting ourstories and we're making sense
of things and it's coming outdaily in the way we interact.
(04:12):
And it made such a profoundimpact on us that it just it
just became we need to do thiswith other couples.
Kate Aldrich (04:20):
Yeah, I love that, that's awesome and I think that
that has been our journey aswell.
I mean, I think you know youwere saying about the tools like
tools have their place, butBrad and I have found for
ourselves and working with othercouples, the tools only take
you so far and the tools arevery behavior modification sort
of bent.
(04:40):
But the real success we have iswhen we understand why we're
doing what we're doing.
And then how do we enter in asa married couple, like how do we
hold that?
How do we empathize?
How do we enter into that storyin a way that the cycle doesn't
just keep continuing, that wejust kind of do the same thing
and hit these same spots, and Idon't.
(05:01):
I mean we had come a long waybefore.
We did story work.
However, it's just made it somuch different so much more
powerful and solid, and I don'tknow it just.
It impacts it in a way, likeyou said, lisa, that has been
different than anything elsewe've ever worked with.
And so, again, we share thesame like and we see it with
(05:23):
couples as they're talking.
They're like so you know, helpus figure this out.
And it's like, well, there'sactually more to it than just
the tools I could give you, andso it's exciting to see people
actually pick that up and runwith it.
Brad Aldrich (05:38):
I know you guys share in the book.
I would love to kind of hearsome of the stories of how you
recognized that, like yourstories, your childhood stuff
was showing up unexpectedly inyour marriage.
I think a lot of times I likedhow you shared.
I think we think about theselike big stories showing up in
(06:02):
big ways in our marriage andit's not sometimes that?
Marriage, and it's not.
Sometimes that happens, butit's not always that.
Steve Call (06:08):
Yeah, I think for so many for us but also for so
many couples the hesitancy orthe ambivalence to even
integrate story can feel reallyoverwhelming or consuming.
And I think that's often thecaution, you know, for some
couples is we.
We, I mean our sort of mantrais the past is always part of
the present.
(06:28):
It may not show itself up fullyand clearly, but I think it's
just a consistent part of ourdynamic and, as Lisa said, and
as you guys have said, that thathas been really helpful and
hopeful for us and for othercouples.
For other couples, one of thekeys for us has been the word
awareness, just being aware,just being aware of how
(06:49):
something of the past is beingplayed out in the present.
And I, like you just said, brad, it doesn't mean that it has to
be these really significant.
Sometimes they're traumaticevents or experiences from our
past and they're not always that, but sometimes they are.
And I think the awareness ofwhat's happening for us in the
moment how is that connected tothe past is one of the most
(07:09):
helpful prompts I think we couldever ask ourselves.
It's a prompt we ask othercouples, it's a prompt we ask
ourselves.
Last night, lisa was we haven'ttalked about this.
Kate Aldrich (07:20):
Great we do this all the time.
Steve Call (07:24):
Last night Lisa got to go out and play with some
friends.
I had had a particularlydifficult day with some
interactions, as I'll say, witha particular family member.
Sometimes it's difficult for mewhen Lisa leaves, primarily
because I just had a mother thatreally wasn't available.
Emotionally, she was verydistracted.
(07:45):
My parents when they were home,they weren't home, meaning
there was something else thatwas more important Hobby
cocktail hour, friends.
And so I have this, I'll justsay vigilance around being left,
being misattuned or unseen.
(08:06):
I have strategies.
We all have strategies in howwe cope with the past, and my
strategy is two words Well, twoand a half, I'm fine, I'm fine.
Lisa is very attentive.
She knows sometimes that can bedifficult for me.
Are you okay?
How are you doing?
I know you had a hardinteraction with this family
member.
I'm fine, I'm fine.
That that's a strategy I usefrom the very beginning, not the
(08:29):
very beginning of time, butwhen I learned to be try to be
okay.
And so Lisa goes away and she'sgone for a few hours.
Lisa Call (08:35):
And this is after like 30, almost nine years of
marriage and when you say youknow small needs like this is a
very hard one to to like, evenname or understand, right,
because early in our marriageit's like well, you're leaving
or what's the big deal, like I'mjust going over here, you know,
(08:55):
and you just don't know, andyou just go round and round
about why are you being this, orwhy are you being possessive,
or why do you not want me to?
And it's so hard to articulatebecause you don't even know
you're experiencing it, right,until you begin to put, oh okay,
this was my family story andit's such a subtle sense and we
and we both actually have thiskind of a sense of wanting to be
(09:18):
noticed and and not being ableto have needs, and so you can
just see how they play in, butthey're just so subtle that it's
really hard to name themwithout going back and
understanding your story.
Steve Call (09:30):
So sometimes, like when Lisa goes away and when she
comes home, like last night, I,I, I mean I would say I, I hate
that, I'm bothered, I holdcontempt that that has that kind
of impact.
I have two to three hours on myown, which on one hand, is
beautiful.
On the other hand, it's a niceday, a nice night.
Lisa's not here.
I was really looking forward tobeing with her.
She comes in the door and Ibasically I mean initially
(09:53):
ignore, I don't engage, I,because I can't bear what's
being remembered.
Now, that's not conscious,though, right, I think sometimes
we believe we have to rememberall the details of the story or
have a conscious memory.
But I feel something when lisagoes away, I feel in some way
left and, and I mean, I'm, I'm apretty, I would say, fairly
secure person, but when I getdisrupted by lisa leaving, when
(10:18):
she returns, I create distanceand I, I would say for so many
couples that's the not thatthat's the strategy, but we have
the strategy that somehow isdifficult in our reconnection.
Lisa Call (10:27):
And I think what made it more complex too, is that
there was this particularinteraction and there's been
other things going on.
So it wasn't just every time Ileave this happens, but it just
was this particular interactionthat, and I knew that that was
going on and so we were aware ofit.
And, um, it's also where shamebegins to really creep in.
So then shame, you know,hijacks the whole thing.
(10:50):
Because now which I think iswhat it's at play, when I come
home and maybe you feel likeignoring because you want to
hide from the shame, like no, Idon't feel like that, I don't
need that, you know.
and so that's another likecomplexity that's playing out,
and so it's another likecomplexity that's playing out,
and so it's hard to tease thesethings out.
Steve Call (11:10):
We've spent a lot of years getting to this point and
I don't know what was myresponse.
Well, the beauty of where Ithink we are landing more
frequently is that there's anattunement to being disrupted,
like you had kindness.
There was a kindness toward mydistance.
It wasn't personal, what'swrong with you?
Like you had a distance, so itwasn't personal what's wrong
with you?
Lisa Call (11:26):
like you had a sense that something wasn't quite
right, it's more like I knowwhat's going on here I have a
sense of.
For a minute we might be likeoh, no but then, okay, I can see
what's going on, like we'rebeginning to recognize that look
on each other's face like, oh,that looks like shame, you know
yeah, I think it's the awarenessthat word, just the awareness
that we build over time isreally helpful.
Kate Aldrich (11:48):
Yeah.
Brad Aldrich (11:48):
And I love that there there's.
There's some hard parts in thatwhere like, and I think we talk
about, you talk about in thebook, the, the rupture and
repair kind of cycles and howimportant obviously repair is,
as you're talking about, how docouples or even how do you guys,
(12:10):
go through that rupture and nothave it either become an
explosion or the silent driftcan happen, cause Steve, you
just named it Like she came homeand my tendency is to drift.
Steve, you just named it likeshe came home and my tendency is
to drift.
Yeah, how do you guys do thatand not allow ruptures to keep
(12:30):
growing?
Steve Call (12:32):
I think, for for us, and I think for many couples,
um, the rupture is usuallyconnected to something of the
past not always and that pastcan be between the two of us.
It can be part of our own story, if and when we can develop
that kind posture toward theimpact of how that story is
being played out.
I think that's what's at playis that Lisa is not my enemy,
(12:55):
lisa is not against me, lisa isfor me, and yet I can interpret
her choices or decisions assomething other than that.
And I think for many couplesand this has been true for us is
we, because of the harm that wehave endured, sometimes we want
to make the other pay for theharm that we've endured, and I
think that we're reallyconscious.
(13:16):
It's not a conscious thing.
I think it took us a few decadesto get to the mountaintop, if
you will around, being able tolook around and say what's
happening, what's going on forus, what is that connected to?
That question, I think, is oneof the most beautiful questions
we can ask each other is what'sgoing on?
What's happening?
What's what's going on for you?
Not not out of blame oraccusation, right, but out of a
(13:38):
curious curiosity, a curiousposture, yep.
So I think the rupture, in aplayful way, where we've landed
with it, is almost being kind tothe reality of rupture.
That, yeah, I love that.
I think I see you.
Oh sorry, go ahead, lisa.
Lisa Call (14:06):
I would just say I think for me, when it began to
shift was really just as we, asI began to understand my own
story.
Um, because you know, we can'tunderstand the other story until
they tell it to us, and youcan't tell it until you
understand what it is, and we'reso unaware of it.
(14:26):
It's just the water we swim inwhen we were children.
We don't know that anything'swrong or different or you know
happening.
And so when we begin to makesense of it, um, and and usually
we need another, you knowanother's eyes on that, whether
it's a group or another personum to begin to make sense of our
stories.
And so we really encouragecouples to begin to tell each
(14:48):
other, tell, tell your stories.
What was it like when, when youknow, you got in trouble when
you were a kid?
What happened?
What was it like when you wenton vacation?
What was it like when yourparents were finding Whatever
stories?
that are coming to your mind andsharing that and then wondering
what the impact was.
And so, as we began to makesense of that, there are very
(15:11):
specific stories that I rememberabout his childhood, that he
remembers about mine, that wewill name.
In the moment, you know, theybecome so familiar that we
almost don't have to name themanymore.
It's just because of the work ofknowing because there are,
there's just a few major storiesthat have impacted Right, and
(15:31):
so, as we begin to see, this iswhat's happening right now, and
then we can remind the other,because a lot of times, like you
do get flooded in the momentyou're being triggered and then
all of a sudden you're turningaway and you're knowing, oh
shoot, I shouldn't be doing this, but you can't.
It's just a response, and whenthe other can draw you back and
go, okay, I feel like somethingelse is at play here right this
(15:52):
is new, though this is in overthe last 10 years, like this was
an early in our marriage.
we were, you know, defensive allthe time because why are you
right?
So you're saying I shouldn't dothat?
You know there's just like yougo round and round.
Brad Aldrich (16:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Kate Aldrich (16:06):
I was just going to say, you know it was
interesting, interesting thatyou said um, sometimes we want
to take it out on each other.
I thought that was aninteresting perspective.
Brad and I've well, I thinkI've always sort of understood
it too, that we these things arenot conscious, but they are the
strategies we learn to use askids and teenagers and into our
(16:28):
adulthood, and they worked wellin our family, right, whether it
worked well to get us seen,whether it worked well to keep
us safe, like all the differentpossibilities.
And I think I always equate itto like we then get into a
relationship with someone from atotally different family,
totally different experience,and the strategies don't really
work anymore and but we don'tknow what else to do.
(16:51):
Like, our body and our brain islike.
This is what I do in thissituation.
This is how I keep myself safe,this is how I, and it just
doesn't play out well, and thenit's like then we find ourselves
in a circle and we just keepdoing it, and so I think that's
a really interesting point,though I'm going to ponder that
Like that, it is an opportunityfor that energy, for that like
(17:14):
what we've experienced in ourhome, to come out on somebody
else.
On somebody else which we'retalking to our we talked to our
kids, who are now mostly youngadults all about like if we
don't work through our emotions,we'll leak them out somewhere.
Right, they got to go somewhere.
Steve Call (17:30):
Yeah, I can't get away from the reality of that.
That has become more and moreapparent.
I would say each session, eachintensive, is how the other
makes the other, how one makesthe other pay.
Kate Aldrich (17:44):
It's really interesting Because of the harm
that they've endured.
Yeah.
Steve Call (17:46):
Like that and the humility it takes to recognize
that is profound, like that.
That's the hope for manycouples that's where they are
stuck or embedded yeah Is tocontinue to reenact, replicate
the harm in some way, becausethe other is the easy target,
and I think that's one of thehopes of this world of work.
(18:08):
Relational work is that is,that couples would begin to pay
attention to how do I make Lisapay for the harm that I've
endured?
How does this make me pay forthe harm that she's endured?
It's a really risky, courageousquestion to ask ourselves.
Brad Aldrich (18:22):
Yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah for sure I think this
goes into what you guys werejust talking about in this.
You know, there are theseruptures, we feel them, they're
tense there and I think I'mhearing you say, hey, awareness
of your story makes repaireasier, makes it start better,
(18:46):
but there's still this thingthat's hanging out there.
One of the things that we'verun into is couples starting on
this path of learning theirstories can tend to use each
other's story as a weapon ratherthan as a place of awareness
and sensitivity and repair.
(19:06):
How do you help couples go ohthat's not just your story
talking, but going, oh, I getwhy that happened and let's
actually repair?
How do you balance that?
Kate Aldrich (19:17):
Well, let's be clear.
They don't do it with you and I.
They always come back andreport that they did it when
they weren't in front of us,like one of them will say, well,
that's just your story and it'slike, ooh, that's not, that's
not exactly how we use story tohelp our marriages, but it you
know, it's a default and it'sit's again as you said.
It's reenacting the punishment,just with a different tool,
(19:41):
essentially.
But I'm curious, yeah, if youguys have seen that play out as
well.
Steve Call (19:47):
Absolutely.
I think, when you asked, thatpart of the prompt for so many
couples is paying attention toliterally their posture, their
posture of how are they turnedtoward or against the other.
I think often couples and we dothis at times we use data of
the story again to harm theother.
(20:08):
We will take this, we willminimize their own harm by by
somehow saying, well, that'sjust your story yeah but?
but how do we?
I think the bind is is how dowe help ourselves pay attention
to, how are we willing tocollude with the harm?
We are colluding with harm bysomehow minimizing the impact of
their story, so that that thatword harm, I think, is such an
(20:31):
essential part, is I.
It's not like I wake up and Iwant to harm Lisa, but when I am
unkind to her story, that is aform of harm.
I am.
When I disregard the impact ofher story, that's a form of harm
.
When I disregard the impact ofher story, that's a form of harm
.
So I think helping andencouraging couples just to be
aware of the impact of when Iminimize your story or I somehow
hold contempt toward the otherstory.
(20:52):
That's a form of harm.
And how we own that are invitedto own, that pay attention to
that, I think helps shift theposture toward it.
Lisa Call (20:59):
And it makes me wonder that pay attention to
that, I think, helps shift theposture toward it.
And it makes me wonder whenthey're telling their story, are
they just giving theinformation or are they actually
having sorrow for the otherover their story?
Are they grieving?
Yeah, because I think once I'vewe've grieved for each other in
these stories.
There's just a differentawareness, like you don't want
(21:19):
to collude with that harm, likethere's like a grief, there's a
sorrow.
It's just a different awareness, like you don't want to collude
with that harm, like there'slike a grief, there's a sorrow,
it's your sorrow is my sorrow,your grief is my grief.
So it wouldn't cross my mind towant to use something against
him in that story because itwould grieve my heart too.
So I think you can tell part ofyour story and well you know
and not really get into thedepth of it where you're
(21:40):
actually experiencing the griefand the sorrow.
Kate Aldrich (21:41):
So I think maybe oh a hundred percent of it as
well, yeah.
Brad Aldrich (21:47):
I mean that goes into some of the stories that
Kate and I have have talkedabout.
You know, there were absolutelysome stories before we did any
story.
Kate Aldrich (21:56):
Yeah, before we.
Brad Aldrich (21:57):
Yeah, because for sure, we were high school
sweethearts.
We grew up together in manyways.
So we knew all of each other'sstuff and there were stories
that just kind of came along andyet my interpretation of them
was totally void of most of theemotion of the childhood
(22:21):
experience of those stories,right Like.
So I knew the facts but Ididn't actually know what it did
.
Lisa Call (22:27):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's really keybecause you can stay in the
facts.
Yeah, right, right.
And that's not really what itmeans to do story work.
It's not about facts, becauseeven the facts aren't even that
important really.
It's about the experience of it.
You experienced it.
Kate Aldrich (22:40):
Yeah, exactly, it's about the experience of it.
Lisa Call (22:41):
You experienced it.
Kate Aldrich (22:42):
Yeah, exactly, and we both did that for sure, of
course, because we, yeah, wedidn't know how to process, and
I think you know us tellingthose stories.
We didn't know how to actuallygo through the experience in
what did it right on my heart,not just what happened kind of
thing.
So yeah, absolutely.
Steve Call (23:02):
Beauty about your naming is that you have become
curious about the other storyand the way it impacts him or
her, but also the two of youyeah.
That's the beauty of whatyou're naming.
Lisa Call (23:12):
Yeah, yeah, because you can see things that the
other can't see.
So.
So I can name even areas ofgrief and harm that he wouldn't
even notice, like, oh yeah, Iguess.
So Like that just happened tous the other day where he was
talking about we were talkingabout my story and there was
another component that I hadn'teven noticed, and and so to be
(23:33):
able to not just tell thesestories once, one and done, you
know, it's like we're constantlyfiltering them and wondering
what part of your story now isgetting activated and did you
ever think about this over here?
And we just we spent a lot oftime talking about that.
Kate Aldrich (23:50):
Yeah, for sure yeah.
Brad Aldrich (23:53):
I'm curious.
You know we're kind of boilingdown story work and story work
in marriage here in like 40minutes I'm sure there's couples
who are listening to this whoare just going wow, that sounds
really good that you have thiswonderful curiosity for each
other and when Steve doessomething that annoys you, you
(24:14):
can just go.
Hmm, I wonder what story iscoming up and like, so how does
this work out in a practicalsense?
Steve Call (24:22):
Hmm, I, I think for many of us the practicality is
being willing to say well, whatis informing the current dynamic
?
Just the practicality of whatis that connected to?
And it can feel like a foreignlanguage, it can feel clunky, it
can feel awkward.
It took us years to get to aplace where there could be that
(24:47):
posture of curiosity.
I think the unaddressed traumafor so many couples is what
blocks the capacity to becurious.
So it's not just, oh, put onyour curious hat and ask these
questions.
That's helpful, but what'sinforming the curiosity is the
desire to know and to be known.
So when I said I do and we saidI do, we're saying I do to
(25:11):
being the safe other.
So the safety of being willingto pursue and engage it, it I.
It's too easy to say practice,but it is practice.
But it's also, again, theposture of.
I don't want to be defined justby what happened to me.
Lisa Call (25:26):
I, I want this dyad to be the story that we are
rewriting and re-editing and Ithink we can't get there until
we have a kind posture to ourown story yeah of course, yeah,
um, it's it.
Just if we and so many couplesare like, oh, I can do that for
you, but like, until we canactually see that childlike part
(25:47):
of us or wherever you know ourtrauma or our harm had occurred,
um, and and everybody has it,because I mean even
misattunement, misattunement weget our trauma.
So if people say, oh yeah, Ididn't really, I had a great
childhood, everything was fine,I had a great life, like there,
there are things in therebecause we're just human and we
(26:08):
are hurt and I work withpre-schoolers and I can see it
on their faces.
Steve Call (26:12):
Like you know so we all have something.
Lisa Call (26:15):
But until we can go back and really have a kind
posture toward ourselves, thenwhatever level we have gotten to
in, that is what we bring tothe other.
And so I think doing your ownjourney and navigating whatever
stories that you have, to comeup and have a kind posture
toward that I think is reallyhelpful before we enter into the
(26:37):
other.
Kate Aldrich (26:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Brad Aldrich (26:41):
How do you guys in your ministry and your work,
how do you help couples to kindof when they're coming in with
very present disagreements andhurts and wounds, with very
present disagreements and hurtsand wounds, how do you help them
moving from blaming each otherinto that being curious about
each other's story?
Steve Call (27:08):
It's a process.
I was working with a couple twodays ago in a one-day intensive
and a few months ago we did ourthree-day intensive.
We have eight, eight couplescome in and we spend three days
together and and I I think, Ithink the the hope that we hope
for on behalf of them is what'stheir vision, mission statement
that they hope to create withregard to their marriage.
(27:29):
Uh, if they were to write avision or mission statement,
what is it that they hope forjust having again putting into
words?
What is it that they hope forJust having again putting into
words?
What is it that you actuallydesire?
Hope for long for Sometimesreduces maybe the tension, the
conflict, the contempt that theymight hold toward one another.
(27:52):
We are all about emotionalsafety, one another.
We are all about emotionalsafety and creating a context
where a couple can develop asense of being emotionally safe
with each other is is.
Without that we really can'twork.
We really can't work towardchange.
So how emotional safety iscultivated and developed I think
that's the key for so manycouples that are struggling is
(28:13):
working toward a posture ofsafety.
What creates safety for us?
Boundary containment,predictability, being able to
say I think I need to pause andcome back to this in an hour or
so that there's this reassuranceof return to something that's
difficult to talk about.
So just some relationalstrategies, if you will.
That cultivate emotional safety, I think, helps diffuse some of
(28:35):
the tension that they hold intheir body.
Kate Aldrich (28:38):
It's really good.
Lisa Call (28:42):
Yeah, I mean, if you were thinking I'm just thinking
even the simplest missionstatement would be like being
known, like I just want to beknown, I want to be loved for
who I am, like it can just be assimple as that, cause I think
that's what we all long for.
Yeah Right, we were created tolong for relationship.
We were created to want to beknown.
Kurt Thompson says you know,we're born into this world
(29:04):
looking for someone that'slooking for us, like that's just
innate.
And so we find somebody thatyou know we feel safe with, and
that's where the journey begins.
And we, we want more of that,and that's that's where the
journey begins.
And we, we want more of that,and that's that's where the
intimacy is built.
So if we, if we know that'swhat we want and that's what our
goal is, then all the otherthings he said the imagery of
(29:26):
our book, like when we we wrotethe deep root of marriage.
Steve Call (29:28):
Like that imagery, the deep rooted there.
Sometimes we don't flourishbecause of our root system And's
part of for many couples.
I think what you just askedabout, brad, is sometimes the
lack of flourishing is connectedto the root system.
So there's work, we dig out andwe add amendments and we, we
toil literally we toil, so thatsomething can flourish from what
(29:49):
we have planted and that that'snot just imagery.
I think that, as you know, ittakes hard work.
It does.
Marriage is hard work andmarriage is a setup.
It's a setup for failure.
We fail, and I mean that thatthat is the bind of marriage and
for many of us we might havethis.
You know this disillusionment,especially if we married early,
like, oh, you're going to solveall my problems, it can all be
(30:11):
bliss, and we were prettydisappointed from day one.
How we honor the disappointment, how we honor the failure, I
think is a significant part of acouple's journey.
Brad Aldrich (30:19):
Wow yeah, for sure .
I think I'd love that you namedthat, because I think there's
so many couples who got marriage, got to marriage, with that
kind of hope yeah they are goingto fix all the things that are
wrong.
Kate Aldrich (30:35):
I don't know, that's always conscious, but yes
, I think that is I think manyof them are conscious.
Brad Aldrich (30:41):
It's the.
I get to spend life with myfriend who's going to always
love me and meet my needs, andthen, very quickly, that doesn't
happen.
Lisa Call (30:50):
We're already disappointed, right.
It's like, that's not workingout.
Kate Aldrich (30:54):
Absolutely.
I love it.
We're already disappointed,right, it's like that's not
working out Absolutely.
But I also think there's a lotof unconscious things that go
into who we pick and how thatplays out.
And so I think, yes, there's alot that we know, and then
there's a lot that happens underthe know, and both lead to all
kinds of confusion anddisillusionment.
Brad Aldrich (31:19):
Yeah all kinds of confusion and disillusionment
and yeah, and yet it is alsothat place for redemption and
healing and, to be truly like,as you were saying, lisa, it is
that one place where we can betruly pursued and known by
somebody who says no, no, no, no.
I want to get past the that allof that surface stuff and I
want to truly deeply know you.
Lisa Call (31:46):
And I can grieve on behalf of the brokenness and the
harm that has occurred.
I mean, that is where I havefelt the most intimate.
Intimately is when you cangrieve on behalf of even places.
I can hardly grieve becauseit's like, well, that was just
normal, that was just my family,they just didn't you know, and.
But he can grieve and that'slike, wow, that is just so, and
on.
(32:07):
And I also wanted to add thatthe book also includes play.
So there's hard work, butthere's also play and creating
beauty and goodness and creatingimagination for, like hope and
what can flourish and what cangrow.
Like yes, there's a hard workof a garden, but then there's
also the fruit of a garden.
Like we don't just do itbecause you know it's just work,
(32:31):
but there's a beautiful game,like we get to have beautiful
fruits and have imagination andplay.
Kate Aldrich (32:37):
So that's all part of the deal.
Yes, for sure.
Brad Aldrich (32:42):
Guys, you guys have been married a long time.
You guys got married younger,like we did.
If you could go back to thefirst couple of years of your
marriage and whisper something,tell yourselves a lesson.
What is it that you would wantthat young Steve and Lisa to
know?
Steve Call (33:01):
That's a good question.
Lisa Call (33:03):
I would have wanted to listen to this podcast.
Kate Aldrich (33:06):
There you go.
I like it.
Lisa Call (33:08):
We had no clue, we had no awareness, no idea.
Kate Aldrich (33:11):
Yeah.
Lisa Call (33:12):
We do get envious sometimes when we have young
couples come in.
We're like you guys are soahead of the game, like this is
awesome.
But sometimes it takes acertain age and a certain true
dissatisfaction in your marriageto where you're like well,
maybe we maybe do need some.
There's a lot of pride at thebeginning.
Steve Call (33:29):
There's a lot of pride.
There's a lot of pride, I think, in a both playful but honoring
way.
I would have, I would havehoped somebody could have said
something like Lisa is not yourenemy, that she is for you.
I think when I felt hurt andwhen most of us feel hurt we
turn against the other or weturn against ourselves.
That was our struggle veryearly on is when something
(33:50):
didn't occur that I hoped wouldoccur.
Maybe I made a bid for sexualintimacy, maybe I made a bid for
play.
Maybe Lisa didn't come home atnine o'clock Like I thought she
would.
I, when I felt hurt, I used itto harm either myself or her,
and I think that's that's partof what I would have hoped for.
Somebody in the first couple ofyears would have said you know,
there's something beingtriggered and activated for you.
(34:13):
When this occurs, it's not justabout Lisa, lisa's for you,
it's something.
The reminder of.
This is where your past isbeing part of your present.
Kate Aldrich (34:22):
Wow.
Brad Aldrich (34:22):
Yeah.
Kate Aldrich (34:23):
I love both of those so good.
Brad Aldrich (34:25):
Yeah, and I think we've had this same conversation
of, like man, the young coupleswho are starting this now, who
are open to hearing oh wait, Ibrought things into this
marriage that are you know in areal way and in depth way and
being willing to really get toknow their spouse's story and
(34:47):
hold that story.
Well that's just going to beamazing as they keep growing.
Kate Aldrich (34:53):
Yeah, for sure just going to be amazing.
As they keep growing.
Brad Aldrich (34:55):
Yeah, for sure.
So it has certainly beenlife-changing for us, and that's
why, we get passionate about it, and I hear from so many
couples that have tried tofigure out understanding and
holding each other well in thisway and it does change things
for sure it does.
Kate Aldrich (35:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Brad Aldrich (35:13):
Wow, matt, this has been really great to get to
know the two of you.
Tell us a little bit how peoplecan find you, sure?
Steve Call (35:21):
Uh, we have a website.
It's called the reconnectInstitute.
Uh, it has all our resourcesand uh links for books and also
for our intensives that we offerfor couples.
Uh, it also has a link for ourpodcast that Lisa and I have
done over the last four years orso maybe.
Lisa Call (35:38):
Yeah, Our favorite.
Our favorite is the intensive.
So we do a story intensive foreight couples.
We do it three times a year.
Kate Aldrich (35:44):
Okay.
Lisa Call (35:46):
It's in person and we do it with Dan and Becky
Allender and we each take fourcouples, and so it's a little
bit of a group experience and welove it.
It's just awesome.
They come out to our barn andwe spend three, two and a half
days together.
We eat, we work hard, we laugh.
It's just um, it's a reallyfruitful time, yeah, so it's
(36:07):
awesome.
Brad Aldrich (36:08):
And do the couples kind of all share, like, their
stories together in a group?
Is that how you've?
Steve Call (36:15):
done it?
Yeah, we do.
We call it the marriage storyintensive, so they share a
particular part of their story.
Lisa Call (36:20):
We actually have them each write the same story
without sharing it with eachother prior to the intense right
, but the same story.
So then that's how we start off.
Is they bring that story in?
Okay, and it's?
Steve Call (36:33):
it's just a beautiful interchange between
you know, people you've nevermet, that can speak amazing
truth in each other's lives Ithink for so many couples, the
fear that they hold in theirbody and in their diet is that
they're alone in their journey,and when they have some kind
exposure to other couples thatare in the process of some some
(36:53):
level of redemption, I thinkthat's so encouraging, and so I
think that's what we found it tobe, a helpful part of it.
Lisa Call (36:59):
Right.
We become so isolated,especially in marriages and
especially like in the church,or it's just not like you don't
want to share those things withpeople and I, you can just see
it dawning on people as theybegin to share like, wow, we're
not alone.
but there's stories worse thanours you know, and so then,
there's this, the shame levelgoes down because everybody's
like, wow, we all have differentthings and we all have, you
(37:22):
know, some similarities in ourfamilies of origin, but there's
just this common good and it's.
It's just beautiful to be ableto share that between one
another and have that connection.
That's amazing.
Yeah, that's very cool.
That's amazing.
Brad Aldrich (37:36):
It would be really fun to visit out in Washington
State and to do some amazingstory work.
Kate Aldrich (37:46):
So that's awesome.
Brad Aldrich (37:47):
It's a great opportunity.
So, yeah, I hope some of youlistening might check that out
and certainly check out theirpodcast as well.
I hope some of you listeningmight check that out and
certainly check out theirpodcast as well.
We'll have links in the shownotes for all of you to be able
to follow along.
Wow, this has been really,really insightful.
I can't recommend the bookenough.
(38:08):
The Deep-Rooted Marriage by DanAllender and Steve Call and
both of their wonderful wivesand you know, I think it was a
great resource to kind of takethis conversation of story work.
We talk about story work oftenon the podcast.
We had Adam Young on a coupleof weeks ago and talking about
his book but this one actuallytakes it to that next place and
(38:28):
go how does this go deeper intoyour marriage, which I love and
just hearing about I feel?
so encouraged just by what youguys hearing about it.
It really encouraged me.
Lisa Call (38:35):
I feel so encouraged just by what you guys are doing,
because it is very rare whatyou guys are doing, so we don't
often we're not able to speakthe same language, but it just
feels really like we're speakingthe same language and I'm so
glad you're on that side of thecoast and we're on this side of
the coast and so we'll do whatwe can, but it's really been
encouraging to hear what youguys are doing.
Steve Call (38:56):
I'm grateful for your work and your commitment to
marriage.
Brad Aldrich (38:58):
Thank you, thank you both.
It was great talking to youboth and, yeah, until next time.
I'm Brad Aldrich.
Kate Aldrich (39:06):
I'm Kate Aldrich.
Be kind and take care of eachother.
Brad Aldrich (39:10):
Still Becoming.
One is a production of AldrichMinistries.
For more information about Bradand Kate's coaching ministry
courses and speakingopportunities, you can find us
at aldrichministriescom Forpodcasts, show notes and links
to resources in all of oursocial media.
Be sure to visit us atstillbecomingonecom and don't
(39:33):
forget to like this episodewherever you get your podcasts,
and be sure to follow us tocontinue your journey on Still
Becoming One.
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
We are Brad and Kate.
Kate Aldrich (00:10):
In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've
survived both dark times andexperienced restoration.
Brad Aldrich (00:15):
Now as a licensed marriage counselor and
relationship coaches.
We help couples to regain hopeand joy.
Kate Aldrich (00:23):
We invite you to journey with us, as we are still
becoming one.
Brad Aldrich (00:27):
Let's start the conversation.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toStill Becoming One.
Welcome back.
We are really glad that you'rehere today.
I think we've got a reallyexcellent show for you.
I think we've got a reallyexcellent show for you.
We're excited to talk to ourguests Steve and Lisa Call.
(00:48):
Steve and Lisa have beenmarried for more than 35 years.
They have three adult kids andthey are the founders of the
ReConnect Institute that arefocusing on offering resources
and tools for cultivatingmeaningful connection in
marriage, and Steve and DanAllender wrote the book the
(01:13):
Deep-Rooted Marriage.
I understand, Lisa, you helpedquite a bit as well in some of
those insights, so we want tohear more about the book and
those resources.
It's actually something that wereally enjoyed in seeing.
Well, we often end upcriticizing some marriage books
sometimes because they go totechniques versus actual
(01:37):
anything of repair.
I think it's hard to find realmarriage books that actually
bring about, like some, learningthat's going to move people
into a deeper relationship.
So, I just want to start even.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how it came about, how the
book came about?
Steve Call (01:57):
Sure Well.
Thanks, brad and Kate, forhaving us and really appreciate
your work with couples as well.
Lisa Call (02:03):
Yeah, we're really glad to be here.
Steve Call (02:04):
Yeah, it's a deep passion for us and obviously a
deep passion for you guys, sothank you.
You know, writing the book was,I would just say, a long-term
process.
Dan and I have taught atSeattle School of Theology and
Psychology for 20 plus years andI would say probably over the
last decade, as we taught aparticular class called marriage
(02:24):
and family to therapists orgrad students becoming
therapists.
Uh, that that was the beginningplace of bringing in some of
the material, but I but I alsosay much of what we bring in the
writing is through a reflectionon our own marriage and our
work with couplestherapeutically.
Dan and Becky and Lisa and I dothese intensives with couples
(02:46):
and I think we just found somereally common themes throughout
most of the couples that eitherwe work with or we come
alongside with that that mightbe struggling in their marriage,
and it was a.
It was a real joy to write.
I'll have to say that, and partof the reason there was joy for
us as we, we got to do ittogether.
I got to do the writingtogether and we were on the same
(03:06):
page with being able tointegrate our own story and our
own story of marriage, but alsoour own family of origin story
into the writing, and so it.
It was a fun journey, gratefulfor to be done.
Lisa Call (03:20):
I don't know if I'd call it a fun journey, but it's
definitely maybe rewarding.
Brad Aldrich (03:27):
It was.
Lisa Call (03:27):
It was a struggle, you know, and but I think for us
, Probably about 25 years ago,is when we began to dive into
our our stories a little bitmore.
And you know, Steve's beendoing this work as a
psychologist and a professor andI was just not as involved in
that part of it.
But then, as we began to diveinto our own stories of origin,
(03:51):
we found the impact on ourmarriage just so incredibly
profound that it just became soobvious we want other people to
experience this, because thisisn't rocket science.
This is like we're putting ourstories and we're making sense
of things and it's coming outdaily in the way we interact.
(04:12):
And it made such a profoundimpact on us that it just it
just became we need to do thiswith other couples.
Kate Aldrich (04:20):
Yeah, I love that, that's awesome and I think that
that has been our journey aswell.
I mean, I think you know youwere saying about the tools like
tools have their place, butBrad and I have found for
ourselves and working with othercouples, the tools only take
you so far and the tools arevery behavior modification sort
of bent.
(04:40):
But the real success we have iswhen we understand why we're
doing what we're doing.
And then how do we enter in asa married couple, like how do we
hold that?
How do we empathize?
How do we enter into that storyin a way that the cycle doesn't
just keep continuing, that wejust kind of do the same thing
and hit these same spots, and Idon't.
(05:01):
I mean we had come a long waybefore.
We did story work.
However, it's just made it somuch different so much more
powerful and solid, and I don'tknow it just.
It impacts it in a way, likeyou said, lisa, that has been
different than anything elsewe've ever worked with.
And so, again, we share thesame like and we see it with
(05:23):
couples as they're talking.
They're like so you know, helpus figure this out.
And it's like, well, there'sactually more to it than just
the tools I could give you, andso it's exciting to see people
actually pick that up and runwith it.
Brad Aldrich (05:38):
I know you guys share in the book.
I would love to kind of hearsome of the stories of how you
recognized that, like yourstories, your childhood stuff
was showing up unexpectedly inyour marriage.
I think a lot of times I likedhow you shared.
I think we think about theselike big stories showing up in
(06:02):
big ways in our marriage andit's not sometimes that?
Marriage, and it's not.
Sometimes that happens, butit's not always that.
Steve Call (06:08):
Yeah, I think for so many for us but also for so
many couples the hesitancy orthe ambivalence to even
integrate story can feel reallyoverwhelming or consuming.
And I think that's often thecaution, you know, for some
couples is we.
We, I mean our sort of mantrais the past is always part of
the present.
(06:28):
It may not show itself up fullyand clearly, but I think it's
just a consistent part of ourdynamic and, as Lisa said, and
as you guys have said, that thathas been really helpful and
hopeful for us and for othercouples.
For other couples, one of thekeys for us has been the word
awareness, just being aware,just being aware of how
(06:49):
something of the past is beingplayed out in the present.
And I, like you just said, brad, it doesn't mean that it has to
be these really significant.
Sometimes they're traumaticevents or experiences from our
past and they're not always that, but sometimes they are.
And I think the awareness ofwhat's happening for us in the
moment how is that connected tothe past is one of the most
(07:09):
helpful prompts I think we couldever ask ourselves.
It's a prompt we ask othercouples, it's a prompt we ask
ourselves.
Last night, lisa was we haven'ttalked about this.
Kate Aldrich (07:20):
Great we do this all the time.
Steve Call (07:24):
Last night Lisa got to go out and play with some
friends.
I had had a particularlydifficult day with some
interactions, as I'll say, witha particular family member.
Sometimes it's difficult for mewhen Lisa leaves, primarily
because I just had a mother thatreally wasn't available.
Emotionally, she was verydistracted.
(07:45):
My parents when they were home,they weren't home, meaning
there was something else thatwas more important Hobby
cocktail hour, friends.
And so I have this, I'll justsay vigilance around being left,
being misattuned or unseen.
(08:06):
I have strategies.
We all have strategies in howwe cope with the past, and my
strategy is two words Well, twoand a half, I'm fine, I'm fine.
Lisa is very attentive.
She knows sometimes that can bedifficult for me.
Are you okay?
How are you doing?
I know you had a hardinteraction with this family
member.
I'm fine, I'm fine.
That that's a strategy I usefrom the very beginning, not the
(08:29):
very beginning of time, butwhen I learned to be try to be
okay.
And so Lisa goes away and she'sgone for a few hours.
Lisa Call (08:35):
And this is after like 30, almost nine years of
marriage and when you say youknow small needs like this is a
very hard one to to like, evenname or understand, right,
because early in our marriageit's like well, you're leaving
or what's the big deal, like I'mjust going over here, you know,
(08:55):
and you just don't know, andyou just go round and round
about why are you being this, orwhy are you being possessive,
or why do you not want me to?
And it's so hard to articulatebecause you don't even know
you're experiencing it, right,until you begin to put, oh okay,
this was my family story andit's such a subtle sense and we
and we both actually have thiskind of a sense of wanting to be
(09:18):
noticed and and not being ableto have needs, and so you can
just see how they play in, butthey're just so subtle that it's
really hard to name themwithout going back and
understanding your story.
Steve Call (09:30):
So sometimes, like when Lisa goes away and when she
comes home, like last night, I,I, I mean I would say I, I hate
that, I'm bothered, I holdcontempt that that has that kind
of impact.
I have two to three hours on myown, which on one hand, is
beautiful.
On the other hand, it's a niceday, a nice night.
Lisa's not here.
I was really looking forward tobeing with her.
She comes in the door and Ibasically I mean initially
(09:53):
ignore, I don't engage, I,because I can't bear what's
being remembered.
Now, that's not conscious,though, right, I think sometimes
we believe we have to rememberall the details of the story or
have a conscious memory.
But I feel something when lisagoes away, I feel in some way
left and, and I mean, I'm, I'm apretty, I would say, fairly
secure person, but when I getdisrupted by lisa leaving, when
(10:18):
she returns, I create distanceand I, I would say for so many
couples that's the not thatthat's the strategy, but we have
the strategy that somehow isdifficult in our reconnection.
Lisa Call (10:27):
And I think what made it more complex too, is that
there was this particularinteraction and there's been
other things going on.
So it wasn't just every time Ileave this happens, but it just
was this particular interactionthat, and I knew that that was
going on and so we were aware ofit.
And, um, it's also where shamebegins to really creep in.
So then shame, you know,hijacks the whole thing.
(10:50):
Because now which I think iswhat it's at play, when I come
home and maybe you feel likeignoring because you want to
hide from the shame, like no, Idon't feel like that, I don't
need that, you know.
and so that's another likecomplexity that's playing out,
and so it's another likecomplexity that's playing out,
and so it's hard to tease thesethings out.
Steve Call (11:10):
We've spent a lot of years getting to this point and
I don't know what was myresponse.
Well, the beauty of where Ithink we are landing more
frequently is that there's anattunement to being disrupted,
like you had kindness.
There was a kindness toward mydistance.
It wasn't personal, what'swrong with you?
Like you had a distance, so itwasn't personal what's wrong
with you?
Lisa Call (11:26):
like you had a sense that something wasn't quite
right, it's more like I knowwhat's going on here I have a
sense of.
For a minute we might be likeoh, no but then, okay, I can see
what's going on, like we'rebeginning to recognize that look
on each other's face like, oh,that looks like shame, you know
yeah, I think it's the awarenessthat word, just the awareness
that we build over time isreally helpful.
Kate Aldrich (11:48):
Yeah.
Brad Aldrich (11:48):
And I love that there there's.
There's some hard parts in thatwhere like, and I think we talk
about, you talk about in thebook, the, the rupture and
repair kind of cycles and howimportant obviously repair is,
as you're talking about, how docouples or even how do you guys,
(12:10):
go through that rupture and nothave it either become an
explosion or the silent driftcan happen, cause Steve, you
just named it Like she came homeand my tendency is to drift.
Steve, you just named it likeshe came home and my tendency is
to drift.
Yeah, how do you guys do thatand not allow ruptures to keep
(12:30):
growing?
Steve Call (12:32):
I think, for for us, and I think for many couples,
um, the rupture is usuallyconnected to something of the
past not always and that pastcan be between the two of us.
It can be part of our own story, if and when we can develop
that kind posture toward theimpact of how that story is
being played out.
I think that's what's at playis that Lisa is not my enemy,
(12:55):
lisa is not against me, lisa isfor me, and yet I can interpret
her choices or decisions assomething other than that.
And I think for many couplesand this has been true for us is
we, because of the harm that wehave endured, sometimes we want
to make the other pay for theharm that we've endured, and I
think that we're reallyconscious.
(13:16):
It's not a conscious thing.
I think it took us a few decadesto get to the mountaintop, if
you will around, being able tolook around and say what's
happening, what's going on forus, what is that connected to?
That question, I think, is oneof the most beautiful questions
we can ask each other is what'sgoing on?
What's happening?
What's what's going on for you?
Not not out of blame oraccusation, right, but out of a
(13:38):
curious curiosity, a curiousposture, yep.
So I think the rupture, in aplayful way, where we've landed
with it, is almost being kind tothe reality of rupture.
That, yeah, I love that.
I think I see you.
Oh sorry, go ahead, lisa.
Lisa Call (14:06):
I would just say I think for me, when it began to
shift was really just as we, asI began to understand my own
story.
Um, because you know, we can'tunderstand the other story until
they tell it to us, and youcan't tell it until you
understand what it is, and we'reso unaware of it.
(14:26):
It's just the water we swim inwhen we were children.
We don't know that anything'swrong or different or you know
happening.
And so when we begin to makesense of it, um, and and usually
we need another, you knowanother's eyes on that, whether
it's a group or another personum to begin to make sense of our
stories.
And so we really encouragecouples to begin to tell each
(14:48):
other, tell, tell your stories.
What was it like when, when youknow, you got in trouble when
you were a kid?
What happened?
What was it like when you wenton vacation?
What was it like when yourparents were finding Whatever
stories?
that are coming to your mind andsharing that and then wondering
what the impact was.
And so, as we began to makesense of that, there are very
(15:11):
specific stories that I rememberabout his childhood, that he
remembers about mine, that wewill name.
In the moment, you know, theybecome so familiar that we
almost don't have to name themanymore.
It's just because of the work ofknowing because there are,
there's just a few major storiesthat have impacted Right, and
(15:31):
so, as we begin to see, this iswhat's happening right now, and
then we can remind the other,because a lot of times, like you
do get flooded in the momentyou're being triggered and then
all of a sudden you're turningaway and you're knowing, oh
shoot, I shouldn't be doing this, but you can't.
It's just a response, and whenthe other can draw you back and
go, okay, I feel like somethingelse is at play here right this
(15:52):
is new, though this is in overthe last 10 years, like this was
an early in our marriage.
we were, you know, defensive allthe time because why are you
right?
So you're saying I shouldn't dothat?
You know there's just like yougo round and round.
Brad Aldrich (16:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Kate Aldrich (16:06):
I was just going to say, you know it was
interesting, interesting thatyou said um, sometimes we want
to take it out on each other.
I thought that was aninteresting perspective.
Brad and I've well, I thinkI've always sort of understood
it too, that we these things arenot conscious, but they are the
strategies we learn to use askids and teenagers and into our
(16:28):
adulthood, and they worked wellin our family, right, whether it
worked well to get us seen,whether it worked well to keep
us safe, like all the differentpossibilities.
And I think I always equate itto like we then get into a
relationship with someone from atotally different family,
totally different experience,and the strategies don't really
work anymore and but we don'tknow what else to do.
(16:51):
Like, our body and our brain islike.
This is what I do in thissituation.
This is how I keep myself safe,this is how I, and it just
doesn't play out well, and thenit's like then we find ourselves
in a circle and we just keepdoing it, and so I think that's
a really interesting point,though I'm going to ponder that
Like that, it is an opportunityfor that energy, for that like
(17:14):
what we've experienced in ourhome, to come out on somebody
else.
On somebody else which we'retalking to our we talked to our
kids, who are now mostly youngadults all about like if we
don't work through our emotions,we'll leak them out somewhere.
Right, they got to go somewhere.
Steve Call (17:30):
Yeah, I can't get away from the reality of that.
That has become more and moreapparent.
I would say each session, eachintensive, is how the other
makes the other, how one makesthe other pay.
Kate Aldrich (17:44):
It's really interesting Because of the harm
that they've endured.
Yeah.
Steve Call (17:46):
Like that and the humility it takes to recognize
that is profound, like that.
That's the hope for manycouples that's where they are
stuck or embedded yeah Is tocontinue to reenact, replicate
the harm in some way, becausethe other is the easy target,
and I think that's one of thehopes of this world of work.
(18:08):
Relational work is that is,that couples would begin to pay
attention to how do I make Lisapay for the harm that I've
endured?
How does this make me pay forthe harm that she's endured?
It's a really risky, courageousquestion to ask ourselves.
Brad Aldrich (18:22):
Yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah for sure I think this
goes into what you guys werejust talking about in this.
You know, there are theseruptures, we feel them, they're
tense there and I think I'mhearing you say, hey, awareness
of your story makes repaireasier, makes it start better,
(18:46):
but there's still this thingthat's hanging out there.
One of the things that we'verun into is couples starting on
this path of learning theirstories can tend to use each
other's story as a weapon ratherthan as a place of awareness
and sensitivity and repair.
(19:06):
How do you help couples go ohthat's not just your story
talking, but going, oh, I getwhy that happened and let's
actually repair?
How do you balance that?
Kate Aldrich (19:17):
Well, let's be clear.
They don't do it with you and I.
They always come back andreport that they did it when
they weren't in front of us,like one of them will say, well,
that's just your story and it'slike, ooh, that's not, that's
not exactly how we use story tohelp our marriages, but it you
know, it's a default and it'sit's again as you said.
It's reenacting the punishment,just with a different tool,
(19:41):
essentially.
But I'm curious, yeah, if youguys have seen that play out as
well.
Steve Call (19:47):
Absolutely.
I think, when you asked, thatpart of the prompt for so many
couples is paying attention toliterally their posture, their
posture of how are they turnedtoward or against the other.
I think often couples and we dothis at times we use data of
the story again to harm theother.
(20:08):
We will take this, we willminimize their own harm by by
somehow saying, well, that'sjust your story yeah but?
but how do we?
I think the bind is is how dowe help ourselves pay attention
to, how are we willing tocollude with the harm?
We are colluding with harm bysomehow minimizing the impact of
their story, so that that thatword harm, I think, is such an
(20:31):
essential part, is I.
It's not like I wake up and Iwant to harm Lisa, but when I am
unkind to her story, that is aform of harm.
I am.
When I disregard the impact ofher story, that's a form of harm
.
When I disregard the impact ofher story, that's a form of harm
.
So I think helping andencouraging couples just to be
aware of the impact of when Iminimize your story or I somehow
hold contempt toward the otherstory.
(20:52):
That's a form of harm.
And how we own that are invitedto own, that pay attention to
that, I think helps shift theposture toward it.
Lisa Call (20:59):
And it makes me wonder that pay attention to
that, I think, helps shift theposture toward it.
And it makes me wonder whenthey're telling their story, are
they just giving theinformation or are they actually
having sorrow for the otherover their story?
Are they grieving?
Yeah, because I think once I'vewe've grieved for each other in
these stories.
There's just a differentawareness, like you don't want
(21:19):
to collude with that harm, likethere's like a grief, there's a
sorrow.
It's just a different awareness, like you don't want to collude
with that harm, like there'slike a grief, there's a sorrow,
it's your sorrow is my sorrow,your grief is my grief.
So it wouldn't cross my mind towant to use something against
him in that story because itwould grieve my heart too.
So I think you can tell part ofyour story and well you know
and not really get into thedepth of it where you're
(21:40):
actually experiencing the griefand the sorrow.
Kate Aldrich (21:41):
So I think maybe oh a hundred percent of it as
well, yeah.
Brad Aldrich (21:47):
I mean that goes into some of the stories that
Kate and I have have talkedabout.
You know, there were absolutelysome stories before we did any
story.
Kate Aldrich (21:56):
Yeah, before we.
Brad Aldrich (21:57):
Yeah, because for sure, we were high school
sweethearts.
We grew up together in manyways.
So we knew all of each other'sstuff and there were stories
that just kind of came along andyet my interpretation of them
was totally void of most of theemotion of the childhood
(22:21):
experience of those stories,right Like.
So I knew the facts but Ididn't actually know what it did
.
Lisa Call (22:27):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's really keybecause you can stay in the
facts.
Yeah, right, right.
And that's not really what itmeans to do story work.
It's not about facts, becauseeven the facts aren't even that
important really.
It's about the experience of it.
You experienced it.
Kate Aldrich (22:40):
Yeah, exactly, it's about the experience of it.
Lisa Call (22:41):
You experienced it.
Kate Aldrich (22:42):
Yeah, exactly, and we both did that for sure, of
course, because we, yeah, wedidn't know how to process, and
I think you know us tellingthose stories.
We didn't know how to actuallygo through the experience in
what did it right on my heart,not just what happened kind of
thing.
So yeah, absolutely.
Steve Call (23:02):
Beauty about your naming is that you have become
curious about the other storyand the way it impacts him or
her, but also the two of youyeah.
That's the beauty of whatyou're naming.
Lisa Call (23:12):
Yeah, yeah, because you can see things that the
other can't see.
So.
So I can name even areas ofgrief and harm that he wouldn't
even notice, like, oh yeah, Iguess.
So Like that just happened tous the other day where he was
talking about we were talkingabout my story and there was
another component that I hadn'teven noticed, and and so to be
(23:33):
able to not just tell thesestories once, one and done, you
know, it's like we're constantlyfiltering them and wondering
what part of your story now isgetting activated and did you
ever think about this over here?
And we just we spent a lot oftime talking about that.
Kate Aldrich (23:50):
Yeah, for sure yeah.
Brad Aldrich (23:53):
I'm curious.
You know we're kind of boilingdown story work and story work
in marriage here in like 40minutes I'm sure there's couples
who are listening to this whoare just going wow, that sounds
really good that you have thiswonderful curiosity for each
other and when Steve doessomething that annoys you, you
(24:14):
can just go.
Hmm, I wonder what story iscoming up and like, so how does
this work out in a practicalsense?
Steve Call (24:22):
Hmm, I, I think for many of us the practicality is
being willing to say well, whatis informing the current dynamic
?
Just the practicality of whatis that connected to?
And it can feel like a foreignlanguage, it can feel clunky, it
can feel awkward.
It took us years to get to aplace where there could be that
(24:47):
posture of curiosity.
I think the unaddressed traumafor so many couples is what
blocks the capacity to becurious.
So it's not just, oh, put onyour curious hat and ask these
questions.
That's helpful, but what'sinforming the curiosity is the
desire to know and to be known.
So when I said I do and we saidI do, we're saying I do to
(25:11):
being the safe other.
So the safety of being willingto pursue and engage it, it I.
It's too easy to say practice,but it is practice.
But it's also, again, theposture of.
I don't want to be defined justby what happened to me.
Lisa Call (25:26):
I, I want this dyad to be the story that we are
rewriting and re-editing and Ithink we can't get there until
we have a kind posture to ourown story yeah of course, yeah,
um, it's it.
Just if we and so many couplesare like, oh, I can do that for
you, but like, until we canactually see that childlike part
(25:47):
of us or wherever you know ourtrauma or our harm had occurred,
um, and and everybody has it,because I mean even
misattunement, misattunement weget our trauma.
So if people say, oh yeah, Ididn't really, I had a great
childhood, everything was fine,I had a great life, like there,
there are things in therebecause we're just human and we
(26:08):
are hurt and I work withpre-schoolers and I can see it
on their faces.
Steve Call (26:12):
Like you know so we all have something.
Lisa Call (26:15):
But until we can go back and really have a kind
posture toward ourselves, thenwhatever level we have gotten to
in, that is what we bring tothe other.
And so I think doing your ownjourney and navigating whatever
stories that you have, to comeup and have a kind posture
toward that I think is reallyhelpful before we enter into the
(26:37):
other.
Kate Aldrich (26:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Brad Aldrich (26:41):
How do you guys in your ministry and your work,
how do you help couples to kindof when they're coming in with
very present disagreements andhurts and wounds, with very
present disagreements and hurtsand wounds, how do you help them
moving from blaming each otherinto that being curious about
each other's story?
Steve Call (27:08):
It's a process.
I was working with a couple twodays ago in a one-day intensive
and a few months ago we did ourthree-day intensive.
We have eight, eight couplescome in and we spend three days
together and and I I think, Ithink the the hope that we hope
for on behalf of them is what'stheir vision, mission statement
that they hope to create withregard to their marriage.
(27:29):
Uh, if they were to write avision or mission statement,
what is it that they hope forjust having again putting into
words?
What is it that they hope forJust having again putting into
words?
What is it that you actuallydesire?
Hope for long for Sometimesreduces maybe the tension, the
conflict, the contempt that theymight hold toward one another.
(27:52):
We are all about emotionalsafety, one another.
We are all about emotionalsafety and creating a context
where a couple can develop asense of being emotionally safe
with each other is is.
Without that we really can'twork.
We really can't work towardchange.
So how emotional safety iscultivated and developed I think
that's the key for so manycouples that are struggling is
(28:13):
working toward a posture ofsafety.
What creates safety for us?
Boundary containment,predictability, being able to
say I think I need to pause andcome back to this in an hour or
so that there's this reassuranceof return to something that's
difficult to talk about.
So just some relationalstrategies, if you will.
That cultivate emotional safety, I think, helps diffuse some of
(28:35):
the tension that they hold intheir body.
Kate Aldrich (28:38):
It's really good.
Lisa Call (28:42):
Yeah, I mean, if you were thinking I'm just thinking
even the simplest missionstatement would be like being
known, like I just want to beknown, I want to be loved for
who I am, like it can just be assimple as that, cause I think
that's what we all long for.
Yeah Right, we were created tolong for relationship.
We were created to want to beknown.
Kurt Thompson says you know,we're born into this world
(29:04):
looking for someone that'slooking for us, like that's just
innate.
And so we find somebody thatyou know we feel safe with, and
that's where the journey begins.
And we, we want more of that,and that's that's where the
journey begins.
And we, we want more of that,and that's that's where the
intimacy is built.
So if we, if we know that'swhat we want and that's what our
goal is, then all the otherthings he said the imagery of
(29:26):
our book, like when we we wrotethe deep root of marriage.
Steve Call (29:28):
Like that imagery, the deep rooted there.
Sometimes we don't flourishbecause of our root system And's
part of for many couples.
I think what you just askedabout, brad, is sometimes the
lack of flourishing is connectedto the root system.
So there's work, we dig out andwe add amendments and we, we
toil literally we toil, so thatsomething can flourish from what
(29:49):
we have planted and that that'snot just imagery.
I think that, as you know, ittakes hard work.
It does.
Marriage is hard work andmarriage is a setup.
It's a setup for failure.
We fail, and I mean that thatthat is the bind of marriage and
for many of us we might havethis.
You know this disillusionment,especially if we married early,
like, oh, you're going to solveall my problems, it can all be
(30:11):
bliss, and we were prettydisappointed from day one.
How we honor the disappointment, how we honor the failure, I
think is a significant part of acouple's journey.
Brad Aldrich (30:19):
Wow yeah, for sure .
I think I'd love that you namedthat, because I think there's
so many couples who got marriage, got to marriage, with that
kind of hope yeah they are goingto fix all the things that are
wrong.
Kate Aldrich (30:35):
I don't know, that's always conscious, but yes
, I think that is I think manyof them are conscious.
Brad Aldrich (30:41):
It's the.
I get to spend life with myfriend who's going to always
love me and meet my needs, andthen, very quickly, that doesn't
happen.
Lisa Call (30:50):
We're already disappointed, right.
It's like, that's not workingout.
Kate Aldrich (30:54):
Absolutely.
I love it.
We're already disappointed,right, it's like that's not
working out Absolutely.
But I also think there's a lotof unconscious things that go
into who we pick and how thatplays out.
And so I think, yes, there's alot that we know, and then
there's a lot that happens underthe know, and both lead to all
kinds of confusion anddisillusionment.
Brad Aldrich (31:19):
Yeah all kinds of confusion and disillusionment
and yeah, and yet it is alsothat place for redemption and
healing and, to be truly like,as you were saying, lisa, it is
that one place where we can betruly pursued and known by
somebody who says no, no, no, no.
I want to get past the that allof that surface stuff and I
want to truly deeply know you.
Lisa Call (31:46):
And I can grieve on behalf of the brokenness and the
harm that has occurred.
I mean, that is where I havefelt the most intimate.
Intimately is when you cangrieve on behalf of even places.
I can hardly grieve becauseit's like, well, that was just
normal, that was just my family,they just didn't you know, and.
But he can grieve and that'slike, wow, that is just so, and
on.
(32:07):
And I also wanted to add thatthe book also includes play.
So there's hard work, butthere's also play and creating
beauty and goodness and creatingimagination for, like hope and
what can flourish and what cangrow.
Like yes, there's a hard workof a garden, but then there's
also the fruit of a garden.
Like we don't just do itbecause you know it's just work,
(32:31):
but there's a beautiful game,like we get to have beautiful
fruits and have imagination andplay.
Kate Aldrich (32:37):
So that's all part of the deal.
Yes, for sure.
Brad Aldrich (32:42):
Guys, you guys have been married a long time.
You guys got married younger,like we did.
If you could go back to thefirst couple of years of your
marriage and whisper something,tell yourselves a lesson.
What is it that you would wantthat young Steve and Lisa to
know?
Steve Call (33:01):
That's a good question.
Lisa Call (33:03):
I would have wanted to listen to this podcast.
Kate Aldrich (33:06):
There you go.
I like it.
Lisa Call (33:08):
We had no clue, we had no awareness, no idea.
Kate Aldrich (33:11):
Yeah.
Lisa Call (33:12):
We do get envious sometimes when we have young
couples come in.
We're like you guys are soahead of the game, like this is
awesome.
But sometimes it takes acertain age and a certain true
dissatisfaction in your marriageto where you're like well,
maybe we maybe do need some.
There's a lot of pride at thebeginning.
Steve Call (33:29):
There's a lot of pride.
There's a lot of pride, I think, in a both playful but honoring
way.
I would have, I would havehoped somebody could have said
something like Lisa is not yourenemy, that she is for you.
I think when I felt hurt andwhen most of us feel hurt we
turn against the other or weturn against ourselves.
That was our struggle veryearly on is when something
(33:50):
didn't occur that I hoped wouldoccur.
Maybe I made a bid for sexualintimacy, maybe I made a bid for
play.
Maybe Lisa didn't come home atnine o'clock Like I thought she
would.
I, when I felt hurt, I used itto harm either myself or her,
and I think that's that's partof what I would have hoped for.
Somebody in the first couple ofyears would have said you know,
there's something beingtriggered and activated for you.
(34:13):
When this occurs, it's not justabout Lisa, lisa's for you,
it's something.
The reminder of.
This is where your past isbeing part of your present.
Kate Aldrich (34:22):
Wow.
Brad Aldrich (34:22):
Yeah.
Kate Aldrich (34:23):
I love both of those so good.
Brad Aldrich (34:25):
Yeah, and I think we've had this same conversation
of, like man, the young coupleswho are starting this now, who
are open to hearing oh wait, Ibrought things into this
marriage that are you know in areal way and in depth way and
being willing to really get toknow their spouse's story and
(34:47):
hold that story.
Well that's just going to beamazing as they keep growing.
Kate Aldrich (34:53):
Yeah, for sure just going to be amazing.
As they keep growing.
Brad Aldrich (34:55):
Yeah, for sure.
So it has certainly beenlife-changing for us, and that's
why, we get passionate about it, and I hear from so many
couples that have tried tofigure out understanding and
holding each other well in thisway and it does change things
for sure it does.
Kate Aldrich (35:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Brad Aldrich (35:13):
Wow, matt, this has been really great to get to
know the two of you.
Tell us a little bit how peoplecan find you, sure?
Steve Call (35:21):
Uh, we have a website.
It's called the reconnectInstitute.
Uh, it has all our resourcesand uh links for books and also
for our intensives that we offerfor couples.
Uh, it also has a link for ourpodcast that Lisa and I have
done over the last four years orso maybe.
Lisa Call (35:38):
Yeah, Our favorite.
Our favorite is the intensive.
So we do a story intensive foreight couples.
We do it three times a year.
Kate Aldrich (35:44):
Okay.
Lisa Call (35:46):
It's in person and we do it with Dan and Becky
Allender and we each take fourcouples, and so it's a little
bit of a group experience and welove it.
It's just awesome.
They come out to our barn andwe spend three, two and a half
days together.
We eat, we work hard, we laugh.
It's just um, it's a reallyfruitful time, yeah, so it's
(36:07):
awesome.
Brad Aldrich (36:08):
And do the couples kind of all share, like, their
stories together in a group?
Is that how you've?
Steve Call (36:15):
done it?
Yeah, we do.
We call it the marriage storyintensive, so they share a
particular part of their story.
Lisa Call (36:20):
We actually have them each write the same story
without sharing it with eachother prior to the intense right
, but the same story.
So then that's how we start off.
Is they bring that story in?
Okay, and it's?
Steve Call (36:33):
it's just a beautiful interchange between
you know, people you've nevermet, that can speak amazing
truth in each other's lives Ithink for so many couples, the
fear that they hold in theirbody and in their diet is that
they're alone in their journey,and when they have some kind
exposure to other couples thatare in the process of some some
(36:53):
level of redemption, I thinkthat's so encouraging, and so I
think that's what we found it tobe, a helpful part of it.
Lisa Call (36:59):
Right.
We become so isolated,especially in marriages and
especially like in the church,or it's just not like you don't
want to share those things withpeople and I, you can just see
it dawning on people as theybegin to share like, wow, we're
not alone.
but there's stories worse thanours you know, and so then,
there's this, the shame levelgoes down because everybody's
like, wow, we all have differentthings and we all have, you
(37:22):
know, some similarities in ourfamilies of origin, but there's
just this common good and it's.
It's just beautiful to be ableto share that between one
another and have that connection.
That's amazing.
Yeah, that's very cool.
That's amazing.
Brad Aldrich (37:36):
It would be really fun to visit out in Washington
State and to do some amazingstory work.
Kate Aldrich (37:46):
So that's awesome.
Brad Aldrich (37:47):
It's a great opportunity.
So, yeah, I hope some of youlistening might check that out
and certainly check out theirpodcast as well.
I hope some of you listeningmight check that out and
certainly check out theirpodcast as well.
We'll have links in the shownotes for all of you to be able
to follow along.
Wow, this has been really,really insightful.
I can't recommend the bookenough.
(38:08):
The Deep-Rooted Marriage by DanAllender and Steve Call and
both of their wonderful wivesand you know, I think it was a
great resource to kind of takethis conversation of story work.
We talk about story work oftenon the podcast.
We had Adam Young on a coupleof weeks ago and talking about
his book but this one actuallytakes it to that next place and
(38:28):
go how does this go deeper intoyour marriage, which I love and
just hearing about I feel?
so encouraged just by what youguys hearing about it.
It really encouraged me.
Lisa Call (38:35):
I feel so encouraged just by what you guys are doing,
because it is very rare whatyou guys are doing, so we don't
often we're not able to speakthe same language, but it just
feels really like we're speakingthe same language and I'm so
glad you're on that side of thecoast and we're on this side of
the coast and so we'll do whatwe can, but it's really been
encouraging to hear what youguys are doing.
Steve Call (38:56):
I'm grateful for your work and your commitment to
marriage.
Brad Aldrich (38:58):
Thank you, thank you both.
It was great talking to youboth and, yeah, until next time.
I'm Brad Aldrich.
Kate Aldrich (39:06):
I'm Kate Aldrich.
Be kind and take care of eachother.
Brad Aldrich (39:10):
Still Becoming.
One is a production of AldrichMinistries.
For more information about Bradand Kate's coaching ministry
courses and speakingopportunities, you can find us
at aldrichministriescom Forpodcasts, show notes and links
to resources in all of oursocial media.
Be sure to visit us atstillbecomingonecom and don't
(39:33):
forget to like this episodewherever you get your podcasts,
and be sure to follow us tocontinue your journey on Still
Becoming One.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.