April 9, 2025 • 48 mins
We explore the dynamic when husbands experience higher sexual desire than their wives, examining how both partners often feel broken or inadequate when confronting these differences.
• Sexual desire disparity affects approximately 80% of marriages with the husband having a higher desire
• Both partners suffer—husbands feeling rejected and wives feeling inadequate or broken
• Harmful messaging from purity culture and society creates unrealistic expectations about marital sex
• Emotional connection often precedes sexual desire for many women, not just a "checklist" to complete
• Trauma history significantly impacts how people experience and express desire
• Desire levels naturally fluctuate throughout marriage due to life stages, stress, and other factors
• Meeting in the middle requires both partners to move toward each other with empathy
• Sexual intimacy serves multiple purposes beyond physical release—connection, care, comfort
We'd love to hear your thoughts about navigating desire differences and what meeting in the middle looks like in your relationship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
We are Brad and Kate.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've
survived both dark times andexperienced restoration.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Now as a licensed marriage counselor and
relationship coaches.
We help couples to regain hopeand joy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We invite you to journey with us, as we are still
becoming one.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Let's start the conversation.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toStill Becoming One.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Oh, it is spring and getting warmer here.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
The neighbor's mowing , and that means I have to mow
no, it doesn't yes, it does.
I can't believe he broke the Idon't know like the first one to
mow.
Then everybody's got to mow, ohthat's just not fair.
I know, but it's probably timeanyways, just been pushing that
to the side.
I like mowing, by the way, butalways the first mow feels a
(01:06):
little like ugh we're back tothat kind of thing.
We do have a nice load of woodin our yard that will take up a
ton of the grass space, so Idon't need to mow that.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yep, I'm working on getting that all chopped up for
you.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yep, we're just talking randomly to each other.
We have a wood stove and I loveit and so keeping it stocked is
super important, but now it'sjust pretty much brad and I that
do it.
We don't have any amazing youngmen to help us.
We do, but they're often theircollege thing and their next
thing, so yeah um, our daughters.
(01:42):
One is super busy with musicalcoming up, the other one is less
inclined to help.
So we're just chopping our ownwood, stacking our own wood,
good stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
It's definitely the.
When you get a wood stove, it'sthe people say it's the heat
that makes you sweat multipletimes.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Oh, I haven't heard that, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, it's very true, because you sweat when you're
cutting it, you sweat whenyou're splitting it, you sweat
when you're stacking it and yousweat when you're bringing it in
.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I don't sweat hardly at any of those times, I mean, I
guess when it's summer andwe're doing it.
But that's why we're doing itin the spring, so it's not so
hot, but okay, yeah, you'reworking harder than I am.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I've been sweating at it, but it's good.
It's good exercise too, so yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And then we get a nice, nice, cozy house in the
winter, which I love.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yep, yep, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So I hope you all enjoyed the conversation last
week with Jay from Hot HolyHumorous and her conversation
around higher desire wives.
That's really a lot of herministry has been speaking to.
What her research is showing ismaybe 15 or 20 percent
(03:05):
somewhere in there I meandifferent things, give different
statistics but.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think when she went through all of it she found all
the statistics together kind offall in that area and I think
what's interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
um, one of the things I thought was really
interesting was her just talkingabout how that even shifted in
her relationship through thecourse of time, and I think that
is something that doesn't gettalked about enough, that you
may find yourself at the onepoint now and you may be
somewhere completely differentin five years.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
True, I think, also remembering like.
Remembering like I don't, mostmarriages are going to have
differences somewhere along theway and fluctuations right.
So like maybe it hasn'thappened and that's okay, and
maybe it will never happen, butI think those that would be an
interesting study right there.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I think those people are in the minority, um, and it
may shift back and forth severaldifferent times, so it, yeah,
it isn't abnormal for that tohappen, so yeah, I think that's
I think that's a reallyimportant thing is that there
are shifts that happen based onage and other factors, but also
(04:26):
just relationship factors, lifestage, yeah lots of different
stress.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Life like lots of different things.
Yeah, I think life stage is abig one.
When your kids are tiny, thereare different challenges to
finding time for sexual intimacythan when your kids are older.
That still challenges, butthey're very different.
So like even just if you have,if you have kids in your house,
(04:52):
how that impacts it, how's it,how's it change it, kind of
thing.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So just remembering, there are lots of things it's
really normal so we thoughtbecause last time we ended up
talking to that 20% of couplesthat the wife is higher drive or
higher desire that we wouldflip it and talk to the 80% of
couples that he has a higherdrive and she has a lower drive
(05:21):
and just trying to figure outwhat are some of the same things
in a healthy way that we needto talk about in how to help
those couples, because for solong this conversation has been
unfair, unhealthy and justriddled in really lousy theology
(05:46):
and really lousy, you know,pressure.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, I think you know, as we're trying to
contemplate talking about this,we had a long conversation
before we started talking aboutit, but I think it's been unfair
to both.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Like that.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
This.
I feel like this topic is fullof emotions, full of hard things
for lots of people.
It seemed as Jay talking aboutthe higher desire wife.
I like to use the word desirebecause I think it also goes
back into story.
Drive is a I don't know, it'skind of a.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Mechanical.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, and if we're honest, if we're going to have
this conversation, and I'm goingto be honest, it's a male word.
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And so like and.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I actually see them different and that's where I was
going to go with them, likebecause there is a drive.
I was going to go with them,like because there is a drive,
and I will say, like the drivefunction leads to what both men
and women complain about of,like sexual relief or release or
whatever, where desire, I think, heads us more in terms of
(07:02):
sexual and relational connection.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
So I do see them as different.
Oh no, that's interesting.
I don't know if I would give itthat word, Wouldn't it just be
sexual?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
functioning.
Okay, this is my.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Let's argue over semantics.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
No, I mean I think I'm coming at it from the term
drive being a psychological termof a motivation, something that
is moving you because of aninternal function, so sexual
motivation right, okay, like.
But there's an internalsomething like hunger is a drive
, right, that that pushes you toeat.
(07:43):
So there's a place where youknow we do have what they call
psychological drives.
That are things that move us andone of them is our sex drive,
and that we do feel a pushtowards having sexual intimacy,
(08:03):
having sexual relief, like, um,that is just biological right,
okay, so that happens right, Iguess I yeah, okay, I guess I
just think of drive.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
There has to be a driver, yeah yeah so I've never
not seen the driver as theperson okay and so that's why I
think I is.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I see it as this internal thing driving okay
people gotcha versus theexternal, or I mean it's still
internal, but the the largeridea of I want to connect with
the person who I'm being with.
It doesn't just have anythingto do with relief kind of idea
(08:51):
Gotcha Okay.
I do see them as different.
That's at least how I kind oftalk about them.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
That could be an interesting discussion right
there it could be, because Ithink biologically there is and
we are in no way doctors Bradprobably knows more on this
subject than me but biologicallyfor many women the drive and
the desire go together Correctand for many men too, that it
(09:20):
does start as a drive and thenit does kind of connect to that
desire.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So I think they can absolutely be connected.
But I think when we're talkingabout like this idea, we are
saying that there are well inthis direction.
We're saying there are wivesout there who have less of that
drive.
There are wives out there whohave less of that drive, the
internal thought about sex.
(09:48):
That doesn't really haveanything to do with a
relationship.
It's just there, it's part ofwho we are as created beings,
and that there are women thathave less of that than their
partner.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
And men and right.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
That's what we talked about last time is that men
just have less of that thantheir partner.
And men and right, that's whatwe talked about last time is
that men just have less of itthan their partner.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I just always am afraid people are listening to
only one and they think we'reright because it happens for
both genders.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So go and listen to last week's, if that's you
Correct, but right.
No, we need to recognize it isthat we often talk about this
when we're speaking somewhere orwhatever.
We talk about this as amaximizer and a minimizer and we
think about it as that.
There's things, regardless ofgender, that both people have to
(10:36):
learn.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, yeah, and there are.
So what do you want to talkabout?
Well, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Brad's driving this one today.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
See what I did there.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah.
So here's the interesting thing, right, I think and we talked
about last week in Jay's bookhow a lot of it was on.
Okay, wives, recognize thatyour desire is a healthy
God-given.
There's nothing wrong with youfor having sexual desire, and I
(11:08):
would argue the exact same thingcan be said for men.
There's nothing wrong with thefact that they have a higher
sexual desire, that they arewanting their spouse.
The problem is, I think part ofthe problem is that we have
grown up in a culture that hassaid men, that's normal and you
(11:32):
don't really have to do anythingto have that be fulfilled and
that that's part of a woman'sduty as your wife to fulfill
that.
And that creates this dynamicwhere there's obligatory sex.
And I think that's coming outof purity culture.
I think that's coming out of alot of this negative voice about
(11:57):
how do we even interact in ahealthy way around sex In a
healthy way?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
around sex, true, yes , and I think that I find a lot
of those principles work forwhoever it doesn't.
In my mind, there are somethings to be considered and are
some things that can help peopleunderstand a little bit more
about their body and a littlebit more about their story and
(12:22):
what could be impacting sexualdesire.
But to me, no matter who'shigher and lower and that can
switch many times over yourmarriage, how we treat each
other and how we come alongsideeach other and navigate that, it
really isn't all that different.
(12:43):
But that's my take on it.
But I do think the church,christian families and homes,
even secular media and such, hasdone so much damage in this
area, honestly, to the lowerdrive wife, but also to the
higher, to the lower drivehusband and to the lower drive
wife, but also to the higher, tothe lower drive husband and to
(13:06):
the higher like it's messed itall up to where we all think
we're crazy, broken and nutsLike, and so I think yes, I
think we do need to like talkabout those things, but I do
think how we handle each otheris pretty universal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
When you talk to wives who are feeling a lower
desire, I'm curious what some ofthe things that come up for
them are.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
What do you?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
mean Well, do you see them focusing on what do they
do to change that?
Like we talked about last week,there are lots of things that
men could pay attention to, tochange, to try to grow that
sexual desire.
So do you see women trying togo?
(14:01):
What do I need to do to changethis?
Do like?
a couple weeks ago we talkedabout the take one for the team
idea, um, and how, how to dothat in a healthy way do you see
women more leaning thatdirection of like, how do I meet
my husband's need withoutnecessarily changing mine, um,
(14:21):
or do you see them going?
How do I get my husbands to belower?
So in that like three differentranges, I'm curious what you
see the most.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
That's a hard.
It's a hard question to answerbecause I don't think any of
them are coming.
First of all, they're allcoming exhausted.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
From trying to figure it out.
I don't know too many wives whohaven't tried to behavior
modify, to shame themselves intobeing interested, to show up,
to try, like I don't know toomany wives who haven't.
They're just as confused as theother spouse.
They're confused, they'rehurting, they're confused,
(15:09):
they're hurting and they thinkthat there's something wrong
with them.
So I, and then also I veryseldom do we get a husband and
wife, or or do I meet with awife where that's the only thing
going on, right.
So that's the problem, like itimpacts other areas too, and I
cannot.
I don't think I've, in myexperience, ever had a wife just
(15:31):
say oh, how do I get his desireto be less?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Right, but I think that's important to say because
I think that's many husbandsthought out there, because they
have heard the line multipletimes of that's all you think
about or that's the only thingyou want, and because their wife
(15:55):
is looking at theirrelationship.
This is one of the things Ihear all the time when I'm
working with couples is thehusband will kind of drop like
it's been forever since we hadsex, and the wife will be like
well, you haven't talked to mein a week and this idea where
(16:16):
she is looking at relationalthings about readiness to have
sex, while he's looking at sexas a ready for relationship
right, and we often talk aboutthat dynamic, um, and, and you
know you're mentioning thepassive, aggressive remarks that
(16:38):
I think right often both peoplemake that's why I'm saying it's
very to me.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
The meeting in the middle is very similar, no
matter who Right Like.
Yes, there are some uniquethings and some dynamics that
happen with both, and culturaltrauma, church trauma, all the
things that have impacted it, Idon't know, I just yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Talk a little bit about that trauma.
How do you see the trauma thatwomen are coming with impacting
their sexual desire?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Well, it deeply impacts it, because there is
something about desire ingeneral that never had space or
isn't safe, so it's reallyunique to them and unwinding.
Why was desiring things, or wasdesiring things something you
(17:40):
did by yourself?
There's so much to learn aboutdesire for them and what that
looks like.
Um, and talk about it, becauseI think it can give you clues
into why desire for sex is low,for in this case, um, I think it
(18:03):
can give you clues as to whydesire is also sometimes high,
because sometimes people arelooking for that to remind them
of where the relationship is.
Um, but so it's.
It's hard to kind of chalk itup other than that to me it's
about how safe was desire, oracceptable, or invited,
(18:30):
encouraged, all of those thingsas a kid, yeah, and I think
there is a place where womenhave that different right.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I just see, in raising girls versus boys, there
is a place of expressing desirethat comes out differently in
just the two of them, and Ithink there's a lot of times
where girls' desire is easier toignore while growing up, where
(19:11):
boys' desire tends to beboisterous and loud and they're
working on a group project andthey have ideas and so they want
all those ideas to be heard andall that kind of stuff, and the
girls kind of just are not asboisterous and loud often, and
so then their desire to havesomething done or lead or
(19:35):
whatever gets pushed to the sideI mean, I think we could spend
days trying to think throughthat.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I'm sure sometimes it's the opposite, like it's.
That's why I say it's so veryunique to you and your story and
how your desires have beenencouraged, all of that kind of
stuff.
But that deeply impacts howwomen express or experience
desire in general.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, yeah and I think we've said this so many
(20:24):
times that it is out of a saferelationship that desire for
women can grow that are comingdealing with low sexual desire.
We're going to look at whereare the places where safety and
connection and emotionalintimacy grow outside of sex,
(20:46):
yeah, which I think can befrustrating sometimes to men
when it feels like I have awhole checklist of things that I
have to do in order to have sex.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Hmm, you mean like a list of things to accomplish.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
A list of, you know, a list of things that I have to
do at home.
We have to do, you know, getall these chores done.
We have to.
I have to have spent enoughtime with, you know, the kids.
I have to spend enough timewith you.
I have to, you know.
And that there's a checklist issometimes how it can come
(21:27):
across.
I'm not saying that it is, I'mgetting a look.
I'm not saying that's what'shappening.
I hear that from men that theygo okay, tell me what this
connection thing looks like so Iknow what to do.
Because I come home and I tryto talk with you and we're
(21:48):
talking about the kids and thatdoesn't seem to do it.
So, like I do hear this fromguys of going, okay, I'm really
trying to connect with my spouse.
I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Okay.
The issue that I have with whatyou just said and maybe you
didn't mean it this way, itsounds to me like that is tell
me how to connect so that I canget what I want, instead of tell
me how to connect becauseconnection is important for me.
Right the same way we tellwomen, sex isn't just for him,
(22:24):
it's important for you too.
When we're talking to a wifebeing the lower drive, spouse
connection and emotionalintimacy isn't just for her,
it's for you too, correct?
so like the way you're sayingthat, you got it, no is is a
problem in my mind, and so ifyou're just looking for a to get
(22:46):
to b, you're missing the wholepoint.
And if that's where you are ina relationship, no judgment.
I encourage you to do somestory work to understand why
your desire for good, healthy,emotional connection is not
there.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Correct.
No, I totally agree.
I think that is this thingwhere guys have not been taught
about their having an emotionalconnection with people in
general and so many of theirinteractions are transactional.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Sounds like some wives with sex.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
But guys don't, okay, I don't know, I'm just going to
be quiet.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
But I think this is part I think it is part of the
challenge is I think husbandsare coming to emotional intimacy
, going tell me how to do it soI can get what I want, and wives
are kind of hearing that asthat certainly doesn't feel safe
, that doesn't feel connectedBecause we're talking about the
same issue on the other end,correct.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Why is your desire for connection with people not
there?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
The challenge that I have between the two, though,
and this isn't to say one isharder or better or whatever,
but emotional connection is avery different connection, and
sexual connection does deal withbody functioning and how things
(24:33):
feel and arousal.
So, like it isn't exact, wecan't completely equate them,
which is why we have emotionalconnection with other people,
but we should not have sexualintimacy connection with other
people.
Um, so like, I just think weneed to be cautious.
They're not exact, they're notequal, they're they.
(24:55):
There are different things thathappen that don't need to
happen with emotional connection.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Well, I and here's okay, I'm going to take a bunny
trail just for a minute that wehave had conversations with um
some friends of ours that usedto be in charge of a youth
organization and not actuallyyouth, young adult organization
that would often get peoplecollege age together to grow
(25:22):
spiritually, to grow together,and one of the things that we
would hear is in the women'sgroups that they would grow
spiritually together, they wouldgrow close together, they would
share together, and out of thatwas coming questions about
(25:43):
sexual desire for each other aswomen.
All right, I'm only saying thisas a bunny trail, because that
place of closeness, of wow.
We heard each other's spiritualdesires together, we heard each
other's emotional desirestogether, we heard each other's
stories together created some ofthat sexual desire that I think
(26:08):
men, husbands, are oftenmissing as a part of an
important part of what actuallyhelps create desire in most
women, so that was a bunny trail.
I know we don't have to dealwith the other issue, but I just
do think it does show how womenare designed in this place of
(26:32):
emotional safety and connectiongrows towards sexual desire.
And I think when we're in themiddle of life together and
family time and all this kind ofstuff, we miss that and we
aren't pursuing that.
And so many times I hearcouples, I hear guys going well,
(26:52):
but wait, before we got marriedthere seemed to be all this
desire but they're doing so muchat that time in terms of
growing connection that juststops.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and I think don't get married if you don't,
you're getting a salty versionof me today.
Don't get married if you don'twant to grow the connection for
the life of your marriage.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Right, okay, but because we're talking higher
desire guys, I don't want tomiss too much of this.
Like the answer is not justokay, guys, we have to
emotionally connect with ourwives better.
I think that is a huge part ofit.
I'm not taking that out.
I think it is a missing piecewhere men often do not know how
(27:46):
to emotionally connect and sothen they are not getting to
that place of forming desire.
Is there things that wivesshould be thinking about or
doing, if they're the lowerdesire spouse, that they should
be working on in looking atgrowing their sexual intimacy in
(28:10):
their relationship?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, sure, but, as I said, it's not going to help
and potentially just cause morehurt.
If you don't understand whyit's a struggle, right Like, yes
, there are, and I meandefinitely for any woman talk to
your doctor.
There could be hormonalimbalance issues or whatnot, and
so it is certainly aconversation to have.
(28:34):
However, I think you know, yes,there are things that in any
relationship, we should bewilling to do to work on the
different connections that arethere.
What you specifically need towork on, I think it's very
unique to you.
You know we did talk about thetake one for a team, but for the
(29:00):
team, for a team, no for theteam.
But you know I'm getting a looknow, but the reality is like it
is very unique to you and I Ihesitate to just give blanket
statements of just show up, justyou know I don't.
I'm not saying, just show up weyes, I do talk to women a lot of
(29:22):
times about, you know, ourbrains can take on so much and
we can run on so many things atone time.
It's very common for us to haveso many things going on in our
brain and I do think sometimeswe need that switch, like we
need to be kind of diligentabout like, okay, this might be
(29:47):
a time, or maybe we've planned atime, or this might be a time
where we're going to have theopportunity for sexual intimacy.
So like actually switching andtrying to make a cognizant, like
I don't have to think about allthose 50 things that need done
right now, because I do remindwomen like our biggest sexual
(30:07):
organ is actually our brain andso I think understanding how
much our brain and the stressand the things we have on our
list impact that, that isdefinitely something that's
universal and I think everywoman can think about.
As far as why their desire is astruggle, I do think that's an
individual journey, but I thinkI think it's it's okay, right,
(30:34):
like it's there's.
No, it's okay, but we don'twant to stay there.
We want to, you know, worktowards our spouse and that's
not working towards a number notworking towards a standard that
everybody else says, but aplace where you two both feel
like, okay, we're meeting in themiddle here, we're both trying
(30:57):
to work on the things that wemaybe struggle with didn't have
a desire for growing up, weren'ttaught and it's really
interesting because you say guysweren't taught how to do
emotional connection.
Well, who teaches you how tohave sexual connection Correct,
like that's not something, eventhe best of parents, who maybe
(31:18):
talk about sex and talk aboutwhat that looks like and stuff.
Well, nobody's going to teachyou sexual connection.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
So we're already at a deficit because right emotional
connection can be taught.
I think, sexual connection.
Even for the best of parents,with the best of intentions,
it's really hard to teach a lotof that.
No, you're right.
So like just understanding,like we're both trying to meet
in the middle, we're both tryingto get good information,
(31:49):
understand what's happeninginside of us for both of us, and
then we're trying to findsomewhere in the middle where
we're both like, okay, this isus and this is good.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, and I think most guys just need to hear that
there is a desire to movetowards that middle.
I think so often what they hearand I'm not saying that this is
(32:21):
what even said, but what theyhear is you have to deal with it
on your own and you have tolower your drive, and that's not
my problem.
We're not even having time toconnect, so why would we have
time to have sex?
And I do think this place ofwanting to come to the middle is
(32:42):
an important part of theconversation.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Okay, but that requires a guy to express that
he wants to come to the middletoo.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Right, like that's what I'm saying, like I just
don't feel I feel verypassionately about this that it
takes both people.
So in my opinion I know there'swalls built up with this
there's all kinds of hurts.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
There's tons of hurt and harm.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Oh, and I honor that.
But have someone help younavigate it, because the reality
is as much as the higher drive.
Husband wants to hear that youdesire him and want to move
towards it, that you don't wantto just embrace this life of low
desire.
I think that low desire spousewants to hear that you know you
(33:35):
want to meet in the middle.
You want to be understanding ofhow hard it is Both.
Right, it's potentially hardfor both, but also, at the end
of the day, this isn't all amarriage is, and so we also have
to work with that dynamic, likeit's a very special part and
(33:55):
the Lord gave it specificallyfor marriages, but it's not the
only part.
Right, and if we don't feellike our hearts and who we are
are being held well andcherished well by our spouse,
all of this we're talking aboutis going to be really hard to
meet in the middle.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Correct, and I don't think we can have this
conversation without talkingabout one of the harms of purity
culture.
One of the things I felt like Iwas inadvertently taught was
that sex and marriage was goingto be available any time that I
(34:35):
wanted it.
Like that was that wascommunicated.
I don't get that messagebecause sex isn't by yourself.
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
So like that's physically impossible.
Just saying Sometimes I'm gladI didn't grow up with these
church messages because I'm justlike what in the world is that
Okay?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
but like and I've said this here before but one of
the one of the standout purityculture messages that I remember
was at a large Christiangathering, hearing a big name
Christian leader talking aboutgetting desired off of somebody
who was, in his his mind,dressed inappropriately and
(35:18):
going home and getting gettingaroused off of somebody who was
dressed inappropriately andgoing home and turning all of
that energy to his wife andnever in that story and I don't
think, even like afterwards, Ididn't even think about about
how the wife would feel aboutthat situation and this crowd of
(35:43):
50,000 people were cheeringabout how he took his sexual
desire home and it's like, ohGod, there's so many yuck there
of what that communicates.
(36:03):
Yuck there of of what thatcommunicates.
But I think to me as a teen andlike growing and trying to
figure out what sexual desiremeant, it was this idea that you
know you're supposed to havehave all the sex you want at
home, so that you don't have any, any desire anywhere else,
which is ludicrous and well, yes, but, and that didn't work for
him.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
No, of course it didn't, because he should have
had it all on the other side sothat he wouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Of course.
Anyways, moving right along, nobut I think those unhealthy
messages have seeped into howmost men, christian men, think
about.
But actually I'm going to evengo most men period because I
think this idea of readilyavailable.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Well, because mainstream also promotes it that
way, and I hear you in that,and I know that that's damaging
and wrong.
But there's also some horriblemessages in there for women.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Oh yeah, Right, Absolutely there are.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
And you know, if you don't give it all that your
husband needs, he's going tostray and it's your job to keep
him satisfied.
And you know when you thinkabout that that doesn't sound
very fun.
No, not that.
Sexual intimacy fits manydifferent emotions for us, it's
not always fun.
Many different emotions for us,it's not always fun.
(37:24):
I think sometimes it is in aplace of care of wonder.
There's all kinds of emotionsthat go along with it and I kind
of get irritated with Christianauthors when we say it has to
be these three things all thetime.
Because, I don't know, and Ishare this and I maybe I'll just
be vulnerable and share this,like as the last couple years of
our home life have been um,hard to navigate, hard to figure
(37:48):
out.
I know we once had aconversation where we said what
if sexual intimacy right now isjust um what is the word I used,
I can't remember now.
What if it's just like a placewhere we get to care for each
other?
and right, right like it's.
(38:09):
I'm going to be honest andhopefully this won't sound weird
, but there was not a lot ofspace for fun and spunky right
in that stage.
Right now yeah.
Well, and yes, we're somewhat.
I think now we have a littlebit more space for that.
But right, like the Lorddesigned it to be, if you want
(38:30):
to call it glue, which people do, because glue is sticky and
gross, but anyways, like itserves many purposes and so,
like I think, just rememberingthat let's not chalk it up to be
so one direction of like thisis what it serves.
(38:52):
No, the Lord created it toserve so many things and keeping
that in mind, I think, ishelpful.
Anyways, that was my sidetrack,but I think women are under
this.
You know a lot ofmisinterpretations as well,
correct and expectations of that, and I don't know I'm hearing
(39:14):
them on this end.
I was hearing them as I was ayouth pastor, like they were
kind of still prevalent, sure,because I guess dating goodbye.
I think that came out when Iwas a youth pastor.
Yeah.
Anyway.
So they were still there.
So that would say, actuallypurity culture is very prevalent
, but they like what does thatteach women about their role in
(39:39):
sexual intimacy?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
and then then we have the, the liberation I will like
, and it just gets even moreconfusing I will say, like in my
mindset, which doesn't reallymake a whole lot of sense, but
my mindset was that you, as mywife, would desire it as much as
(40:01):
I did, and so that my cominghome turned on with that idea
that I was taught was-.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Such a great example.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Was like welcomed and going.
Oh yes, of course I would wantthat.
I think that was never actuallycontemplated that desired
differences would be involved ina relationship.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
But I think it's really important to share from
our own story that I alsothought that.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
So imagine you're coming home fitting what you've
been sold.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
I'm not right.
So imagine what that feels likesomething is wrong with me,
because I was sold and was veryexcited, so like there wasn't.
I mean, there was, sure, somenormal nervousness about
something you haven'texperienced before, but like
there were no qualms or issueswith me with that.
And then it was like oh, Ienjoy it when we're having it,
(41:05):
but the rest of the time I couldtake it or leave it like and I
know that sounds harsh, I don'tmean it to sound harsh, but I'm
just trying to be honest and sothen, and I understand, you felt
like you were fed a lie, but sowere women, right, right, it's
like okay, I'm struggling towant it, so what does that mean
(41:25):
about me?
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, and I think that's so important to say is I
think both people are coming tothis difference feeling rather
broken, and so do I, and I thinkwe need to figure out what
speak out of our hurt Right,both of us Exactly right, and I
think we need to figure out whatempathy of both sides of that
(41:49):
actually looks like.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
And remembering that neither side is right or wrong.
Right and and probably for bothsides I've heard this like I.
I literally wished I could havebeen you.
Oh, yeah, and, and, and that mydesire would be like off the
charts and I think many men orhigher drive spouses whichever
(42:14):
wish their desire would dampen.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Oh, every guy that I talk to who have problems with
unwanted sexual behavior havevehemently prayed for that.
Just remove my desire.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
I could be wrong, but I would think, even if that
hasn't been a part of the story,I understand that amps it up
even more, because there's theshame, because in marriage,
marriage the desire is okay andyou're told that, but outside of
marriage you're told it's notso, but, like I would imagine,
they'd at least want it to beless, so that they're not
causing a dynamic orexperiencing their own hurt.
(42:51):
Um, so yeah, I don't know, it'sjust, and I think for young
couples getting married, myheart hurts because I think the
church is starting to come outof some of these lies, starting
to inform people well, or asbest they can.
We can't inform everypremarital couple of every
(43:13):
potential, but we can certainlyspeak to.
Here are some.
If other things come up, comeback and talk to us, right.
But I think the younger versionof you and me, right, we
weren't ready to enter in withempathy because we had been sold
something that we felt like wedeserved.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Correct.
There was entitlement around it, there was anger around it.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Well, the church tells you, do it right and it'll
all be amazing.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Right and there was a whole lot of feeling broken.
That was.
You are correct.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Like, when we feel broken, we end up showing anger,
we end up expressing anger, andthat doesn't help any of this
well, yes, anger, but thereality is anger is just a cover
for a very deeper emotion ofI'll just blanket it as hurt,
(44:10):
yes, and pain, yes, um, and thatis part of the fall like we did
choose life outside of eden andlike we can't, we can't say
that that's this, these are theconsequences, right, but we're
trying to move towards eachother as spouses.
So how do we hold all of thosedifferences that life entails
(44:34):
where sexual intimacy isconcerned well with each other?
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Yeah, I think that's really important, and just the
desire to hold that.
And this is the thing.
Right, that doesn't actuallymean that we automatically have
sex.
It doesn't mean weautomatically say yes.
It doesn't mean weautomatically don't.
Right, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
And I mean, maybe I'm just passionate about this in
general.
I'm so, like, done with I.
Just I'm so done with peopleand like I will love you dot dot
dot as long as this happens, aslong as this.
Yeah, like that's just not theway the Lord intended it to be,
(45:20):
and I think, as marriages, wehave so much further to go in
holding each other well, do Bradand I always do it, absolutely
not because we're human and youknow we're just human.
That's where it ends.
But, like just in everything,there's so many life changes
that happen over the years ofyour marriage.
(45:40):
And how can you enjoy life welltogether and meet in the middle
about as many things aspossible?
Hold it well, you're here onthis, I'm here on this.
What does that look like for usto do it?
Speaker 1 (45:53):
well, that's so many things and I just think, yeah,
there's just a world of hurt outthere and yeah, this is a
really good thing to talk aboutand I hope that it sparks some
conversations for you, and Ihope that this gets a place
(46:15):
where maybe you can see yourspouse differently in where
these desire differences arecoming from and that it might
help you move towards the middle.
And I think that was exactlywhy I wanted to talk about this
topic is I do think there's justso much hurt and so much
(46:35):
frustration in our perspectiveof it that sometimes we miss
where the other person's comingfrom.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
I think we often are, yeah, so I'm just giving looks
over here.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, you're going to make them want us to do a
YouTube video with all thoselooks.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Oh, I could just send you, you like just selfies?
Speaker 1 (46:59):
of all my looks I think this is a really important
conversation and obviously wewent a little bit longer than
our normal podcast, but I'mhoping because my saltiness.
Enjoy some of that conversation.
I'd love to hear from some ofyou.
If you want to reach out to usat help at stillbecomingonecom,
(47:21):
we would love to hear yourthoughts and we'd love to hear
what it's been like for you onyour journey of trying to figure
out what meeting in the middlelooks like.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
So until next time I'm Brad Aldrich.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
And I'm Kate Aldrich.
Be kind and take care of eachother.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Still Becoming One is a production of Aldrich
Ministries.
For more information about Bradand Kate's coaching ministry
courses and speakingopportunities, you can find us
at aldrichministriescom Forpodcast show notes and links to
resources in all of our socialmedia.
Be sure to visit us atstillbecomingonecom and don't
(48:06):
forget to like this episodewherever you get your podcasts.
And be sure to follow us tocontinue your journey on Still
Becoming One.
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
We are Brad and Kate.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've
survived both dark times andexperienced restoration.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Now as a licensed marriage counselor and
relationship coaches.
We help couples to regain hopeand joy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We invite you to journey with us, as we are still
becoming one.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Let's start the conversation.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toStill Becoming One.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Oh, it is spring and getting warmer here.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
The neighbor's mowing , and that means I have to mow
no, it doesn't yes, it does.
I can't believe he broke the Idon't know like the first one to
mow.
Then everybody's got to mow, ohthat's just not fair.
I know, but it's probably timeanyways, just been pushing that
to the side.
I like mowing, by the way, butalways the first mow feels a
(01:06):
little like ugh we're back tothat kind of thing.
We do have a nice load of woodin our yard that will take up a
ton of the grass space, so Idon't need to mow that.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yep, I'm working on getting that all chopped up for
you.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yep, we're just talking randomly to each other.
We have a wood stove and I loveit and so keeping it stocked is
super important, but now it'sjust pretty much brad and I that
do it.
We don't have any amazing youngmen to help us.
We do, but they're often theircollege thing and their next
thing, so yeah um, our daughters.
(01:42):
One is super busy with musicalcoming up, the other one is less
inclined to help.
So we're just chopping our ownwood, stacking our own wood,
good stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
It's definitely the.
When you get a wood stove, it'sthe people say it's the heat
that makes you sweat multipletimes.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Oh, I haven't heard that, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, it's very true, because you sweat when you're
cutting it, you sweat whenyou're splitting it, you sweat
when you're stacking it and yousweat when you're bringing it in
.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I don't sweat hardly at any of those times, I mean, I
guess when it's summer andwe're doing it.
But that's why we're doing itin the spring, so it's not so
hot, but okay, yeah, you'reworking harder than I am.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I've been sweating at it, but it's good.
It's good exercise too, so yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And then we get a nice, nice, cozy house in the
winter, which I love.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yep, yep, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So I hope you all enjoyed the conversation last
week with Jay from Hot HolyHumorous and her conversation
around higher desire wives.
That's really a lot of herministry has been speaking to.
What her research is showing ismaybe 15 or 20 percent
(03:05):
somewhere in there I meandifferent things, give different
statistics but.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think when she went through all of it she found all
the statistics together kind offall in that area and I think
what's interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
um, one of the things I thought was really
interesting was her just talkingabout how that even shifted in
her relationship through thecourse of time, and I think that
is something that doesn't gettalked about enough, that you
may find yourself at the onepoint now and you may be
somewhere completely differentin five years.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
True, I think, also remembering like.
Remembering like I don't, mostmarriages are going to have
differences somewhere along theway and fluctuations right.
So like maybe it hasn'thappened and that's okay, and
maybe it will never happen, butI think those that would be an
interesting study right there.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I think those people are in the minority, um, and it
may shift back and forth severaldifferent times, so it, yeah,
it isn't abnormal for that tohappen, so yeah, I think that's
I think that's a reallyimportant thing is that there
are shifts that happen based onage and other factors, but also
(04:26):
just relationship factors, lifestage, yeah lots of different
stress.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Life like lots of different things.
Yeah, I think life stage is abig one.
When your kids are tiny, thereare different challenges to
finding time for sexual intimacythan when your kids are older.
That still challenges, butthey're very different.
So like even just if you have,if you have kids in your house,
(04:52):
how that impacts it, how's it,how's it change it, kind of
thing.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So just remembering, there are lots of things it's
really normal so we thoughtbecause last time we ended up
talking to that 20% of couplesthat the wife is higher drive or
higher desire that we wouldflip it and talk to the 80% of
couples that he has a higherdrive and she has a lower drive
(05:21):
and just trying to figure outwhat are some of the same things
in a healthy way that we needto talk about in how to help
those couples, because for solong this conversation has been
unfair, unhealthy and justriddled in really lousy theology
(05:46):
and really lousy, you know,pressure.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, I think you know, as we're trying to
contemplate talking about this,we had a long conversation
before we started talking aboutit, but I think it's been unfair
to both.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Like that.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
This.
I feel like this topic is fullof emotions, full of hard things
for lots of people.
It seemed as Jay talking aboutthe higher desire wife.
I like to use the word desirebecause I think it also goes
back into story.
Drive is a I don't know, it'skind of a.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Mechanical.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, and if we're honest, if we're going to have
this conversation, and I'm goingto be honest, it's a male word.
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And so like and.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I actually see them different and that's where I was
going to go with them, likebecause there is a drive.
I was going to go with them,like because there is a drive,
and I will say, like the drivefunction leads to what both men
and women complain about of,like sexual relief or release or
whatever, where desire, I think, heads us more in terms of
(07:02):
sexual and relational connection.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
So I do see them as different.
Oh no, that's interesting.
I don't know if I would give itthat word, Wouldn't it just be
sexual?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
functioning.
Okay, this is my.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Let's argue over semantics.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
No, I mean I think I'm coming at it from the term
drive being a psychological termof a motivation, something that
is moving you because of aninternal function, so sexual
motivation right, okay, like.
But there's an internalsomething like hunger is a drive
, right, that that pushes you toeat.
(07:43):
So there's a place where youknow we do have what they call
psychological drives.
That are things that move us andone of them is our sex drive,
and that we do feel a pushtowards having sexual intimacy,
(08:03):
having sexual relief, like, um,that is just biological right,
okay, so that happens right, Iguess I yeah, okay, I guess I
just think of drive.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
There has to be a driver, yeah yeah so I've never
not seen the driver as theperson okay and so that's why I
think I is.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I see it as this internal thing driving okay
people gotcha versus theexternal, or I mean it's still
internal, but the the largeridea of I want to connect with
the person who I'm being with.
It doesn't just have anythingto do with relief kind of idea
(08:51):
Gotcha Okay.
I do see them as different.
That's at least how I kind oftalk about them.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
That could be an interesting discussion right
there it could be, because Ithink biologically there is and
we are in no way doctors Bradprobably knows more on this
subject than me but biologicallyfor many women the drive and
the desire go together Correctand for many men too, that it
(09:20):
does start as a drive and thenit does kind of connect to that
desire.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So I think they can absolutely be connected.
But I think when we're talkingabout like this idea, we are
saying that there are well inthis direction.
We're saying there are wivesout there who have less of that
drive.
There are wives out there whohave less of that drive, the
internal thought about sex.
(09:48):
That doesn't really haveanything to do with a
relationship.
It's just there, it's part ofwho we are as created beings,
and that there are women thathave less of that than their
partner.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
And men and right.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
That's what we talked about last time is that men
just have less of that thantheir partner.
And men and right, that's whatwe talked about last time is
that men just have less of itthan their partner.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I just always am afraid people are listening to
only one and they think we'reright because it happens for
both genders.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So go and listen to last week's, if that's you
Correct, but right.
No, we need to recognize it isthat we often talk about this
when we're speaking somewhere orwhatever.
We talk about this as amaximizer and a minimizer and we
think about it as that.
There's things, regardless ofgender, that both people have to
(10:36):
learn.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, yeah, and there are.
So what do you want to talkabout?
Well, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Brad's driving this one today.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
See what I did there.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah.
So here's the interesting thing, right, I think and we talked
about last week in Jay's bookhow a lot of it was on.
Okay, wives, recognize thatyour desire is a healthy
God-given.
There's nothing wrong with youfor having sexual desire, and I
(11:08):
would argue the exact same thingcan be said for men.
There's nothing wrong with thefact that they have a higher
sexual desire, that they arewanting their spouse.
The problem is, I think part ofthe problem is that we have
grown up in a culture that hassaid men, that's normal and you
(11:32):
don't really have to do anythingto have that be fulfilled and
that that's part of a woman'sduty as your wife to fulfill
that.
And that creates this dynamicwhere there's obligatory sex.
And I think that's coming outof purity culture.
I think that's coming out of alot of this negative voice about
(11:57):
how do we even interact in ahealthy way around sex In a
healthy way?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
around sex, true, yes , and I think that I find a lot
of those principles work forwhoever it doesn't.
In my mind, there are somethings to be considered and are
some things that can help peopleunderstand a little bit more
about their body and a littlebit more about their story and
(12:22):
what could be impacting sexualdesire.
But to me, no matter who'shigher and lower and that can
switch many times over yourmarriage, how we treat each
other and how we come alongsideeach other and navigate that, it
really isn't all that different.
(12:43):
But that's my take on it.
But I do think the church,christian families and homes,
even secular media and such, hasdone so much damage in this
area, honestly, to the lowerdrive wife, but also to the
higher, to the lower drivehusband and to the lower drive
wife, but also to the higher, tothe lower drive husband and to
(13:06):
the higher like it's messed itall up to where we all think
we're crazy, broken and nutsLike, and so I think yes, I
think we do need to like talkabout those things, but I do
think how we handle each otheris pretty universal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
When you talk to wives who are feeling a lower
desire, I'm curious what some ofthe things that come up for
them are.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
What do you?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
mean Well, do you see them focusing on what do they
do to change that?
Like we talked about last week,there are lots of things that
men could pay attention to, tochange, to try to grow that
sexual desire.
So do you see women trying togo?
(14:01):
What do I need to do to changethis?
Do like?
a couple weeks ago we talkedabout the take one for the team
idea, um, and how, how to dothat in a healthy way do you see
women more leaning thatdirection of like, how do I meet
my husband's need withoutnecessarily changing mine, um,
(14:21):
or do you see them going?
How do I get my husbands to belower?
So in that like three differentranges, I'm curious what you
see the most.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
That's a hard.
It's a hard question to answerbecause I don't think any of
them are coming.
First of all, they're allcoming exhausted.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
From trying to figure it out.
I don't know too many wives whohaven't tried to behavior
modify, to shame themselves intobeing interested, to show up,
to try, like I don't know toomany wives who haven't.
They're just as confused as theother spouse.
They're confused, they'rehurting, they're confused,
(15:09):
they're hurting and they thinkthat there's something wrong
with them.
So I, and then also I veryseldom do we get a husband and
wife, or or do I meet with awife where that's the only thing
going on, right.
So that's the problem, like itimpacts other areas too, and I
cannot.
I don't think I've, in myexperience, ever had a wife just
(15:31):
say oh, how do I get his desireto be less?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Right, but I think that's important to say because
I think that's many husbandsthought out there, because they
have heard the line multipletimes of that's all you think
about or that's the only thingyou want, and because their wife
(15:55):
is looking at theirrelationship.
This is one of the things Ihear all the time when I'm
working with couples is thehusband will kind of drop like
it's been forever since we hadsex, and the wife will be like
well, you haven't talked to mein a week and this idea where
(16:16):
she is looking at relationalthings about readiness to have
sex, while he's looking at sexas a ready for relationship
right, and we often talk aboutthat dynamic, um, and, and you
know you're mentioning thepassive, aggressive remarks that
(16:38):
I think right often both peoplemake that's why I'm saying it's
very to me.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
The meeting in the middle is very similar, no
matter who Right Like.
Yes, there are some uniquethings and some dynamics that
happen with both, and culturaltrauma, church trauma, all the
things that have impacted it, Idon't know, I just yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Talk a little bit about that trauma.
How do you see the trauma thatwomen are coming with impacting
their sexual desire?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Well, it deeply impacts it, because there is
something about desire ingeneral that never had space or
isn't safe, so it's reallyunique to them and unwinding.
Why was desiring things, or wasdesiring things something you
(17:40):
did by yourself?
There's so much to learn aboutdesire for them and what that
looks like.
Um, and talk about it, becauseI think it can give you clues
into why desire for sex is low,for in this case, um, I think it
(18:03):
can give you clues as to whydesire is also sometimes high,
because sometimes people arelooking for that to remind them
of where the relationship is.
Um, but so it's.
It's hard to kind of chalk itup other than that to me it's
about how safe was desire, oracceptable, or invited,
(18:30):
encouraged, all of those thingsas a kid, yeah, and I think
there is a place where womenhave that different right.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I just see, in raising girls versus boys, there
is a place of expressing desirethat comes out differently in
just the two of them, and Ithink there's a lot of times
where girls' desire is easier toignore while growing up, where
(19:11):
boys' desire tends to beboisterous and loud and they're
working on a group project andthey have ideas and so they want
all those ideas to be heard andall that kind of stuff, and the
girls kind of just are not asboisterous and loud often, and
so then their desire to havesomething done or lead or
(19:35):
whatever gets pushed to the sideI mean, I think we could spend
days trying to think throughthat.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I'm sure sometimes it's the opposite, like it's.
That's why I say it's so veryunique to you and your story and
how your desires have beenencouraged, all of that kind of
stuff.
But that deeply impacts howwomen express or experience
desire in general.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, yeah and I think we've said this so many
(20:24):
times that it is out of a saferelationship that desire for
women can grow that are comingdealing with low sexual desire.
We're going to look at whereare the places where safety and
connection and emotionalintimacy grow outside of sex,
(20:46):
yeah, which I think can befrustrating sometimes to men
when it feels like I have awhole checklist of things that I
have to do in order to have sex.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Hmm, you mean like a list of things to accomplish.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
A list of, you know, a list of things that I have to
do at home.
We have to do, you know, getall these chores done.
We have to.
I have to have spent enoughtime with, you know, the kids.
I have to spend enough timewith you.
I have to, you know.
And that there's a checklist issometimes how it can come
(21:27):
across.
I'm not saying that it is, I'mgetting a look.
I'm not saying that's what'shappening.
I hear that from men that theygo okay, tell me what this
connection thing looks like so Iknow what to do.
Because I come home and I tryto talk with you and we're
(21:48):
talking about the kids and thatdoesn't seem to do it.
So, like I do hear this fromguys of going, okay, I'm really
trying to connect with my spouse.
I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Okay.
The issue that I have with whatyou just said and maybe you
didn't mean it this way, itsounds to me like that is tell
me how to connect so that I canget what I want, instead of tell
me how to connect becauseconnection is important for me.
Right the same way we tellwomen, sex isn't just for him,
(22:24):
it's important for you too.
When we're talking to a wifebeing the lower drive, spouse
connection and emotionalintimacy isn't just for her,
it's for you too, correct?
so like the way you're sayingthat, you got it, no is is a
problem in my mind, and so ifyou're just looking for a to get
(22:46):
to b, you're missing the wholepoint.
And if that's where you are ina relationship, no judgment.
I encourage you to do somestory work to understand why
your desire for good, healthy,emotional connection is not
there.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Correct.
No, I totally agree.
I think that is this thingwhere guys have not been taught
about their having an emotionalconnection with people in
general and so many of theirinteractions are transactional.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Sounds like some wives with sex.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
But guys don't, okay, I don't know, I'm just going to
be quiet.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
But I think this is part I think it is part of the
challenge is I think husbandsare coming to emotional intimacy
, going tell me how to do it soI can get what I want, and wives
are kind of hearing that asthat certainly doesn't feel safe
, that doesn't feel connectedBecause we're talking about the
same issue on the other end,correct.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Why is your desire for connection with people not
there?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
The challenge that I have between the two, though,
and this isn't to say one isharder or better or whatever,
but emotional connection is avery different connection, and
sexual connection does deal withbody functioning and how things
(24:33):
feel and arousal.
So, like it isn't exact, wecan't completely equate them,
which is why we have emotionalconnection with other people,
but we should not have sexualintimacy connection with other
people.
Um, so like, I just think weneed to be cautious.
They're not exact, they're notequal, they're they.
(24:55):
There are different things thathappen that don't need to
happen with emotional connection.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Well, I and here's okay, I'm going to take a bunny
trail just for a minute that wehave had conversations with um
some friends of ours that usedto be in charge of a youth
organization and not actuallyyouth, young adult organization
that would often get peoplecollege age together to grow
(25:22):
spiritually, to grow together,and one of the things that we
would hear is in the women'sgroups that they would grow
spiritually together, they wouldgrow close together, they would
share together, and out of thatwas coming questions about
(25:43):
sexual desire for each other aswomen.
All right, I'm only saying thisas a bunny trail, because that
place of closeness, of wow.
We heard each other's spiritualdesires together, we heard each
other's emotional desirestogether, we heard each other's
stories together created some ofthat sexual desire that I think
(26:08):
men, husbands, are oftenmissing as a part of an
important part of what actuallyhelps create desire in most
women, so that was a bunny trail.
I know we don't have to dealwith the other issue, but I just
do think it does show how womenare designed in this place of
(26:32):
emotional safety and connectiongrows towards sexual desire.
And I think when we're in themiddle of life together and
family time and all this kind ofstuff, we miss that and we
aren't pursuing that.
And so many times I hearcouples, I hear guys going well,
(26:52):
but wait, before we got marriedthere seemed to be all this
desire but they're doing so muchat that time in terms of
growing connection that juststops.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and I think don't get married if you don't,
you're getting a salty versionof me today.
Don't get married if you don'twant to grow the connection for
the life of your marriage.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Right, okay, but because we're talking higher
desire guys, I don't want tomiss too much of this.
Like the answer is not justokay, guys, we have to
emotionally connect with ourwives better.
I think that is a huge part ofit.
I'm not taking that out.
I think it is a missing piecewhere men often do not know how
(27:46):
to emotionally connect and sothen they are not getting to
that place of forming desire.
Is there things that wivesshould be thinking about or
doing, if they're the lowerdesire spouse, that they should
be working on in looking atgrowing their sexual intimacy in
(28:10):
their relationship?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, sure, but, as I said, it's not going to help
and potentially just cause morehurt.
If you don't understand whyit's a struggle, right Like, yes
, there are, and I meandefinitely for any woman talk to
your doctor.
There could be hormonalimbalance issues or whatnot, and
so it is certainly aconversation to have.
(28:34):
However, I think you know, yes,there are things that in any
relationship, we should bewilling to do to work on the
different connections that arethere.
What you specifically need towork on, I think it's very
unique to you.
You know we did talk about thetake one for a team, but for the
(29:00):
team, for a team, no for theteam.
But you know I'm getting a looknow, but the reality is like it
is very unique to you and I Ihesitate to just give blanket
statements of just show up, justyou know I don't.
I'm not saying, just show up weyes, I do talk to women a lot of
(29:22):
times about, you know, ourbrains can take on so much and
we can run on so many things atone time.
It's very common for us to haveso many things going on in our
brain and I do think sometimeswe need that switch, like we
need to be kind of diligentabout like, okay, this might be
(29:47):
a time, or maybe we've planned atime, or this might be a time
where we're going to have theopportunity for sexual intimacy.
So like actually switching andtrying to make a cognizant, like
I don't have to think about allthose 50 things that need done
right now, because I do remindwomen like our biggest sexual
(30:07):
organ is actually our brain andso I think understanding how
much our brain and the stressand the things we have on our
list impact that, that isdefinitely something that's
universal and I think everywoman can think about.
As far as why their desire is astruggle, I do think that's an
individual journey, but I thinkI think it's it's okay, right,
(30:34):
like it's there's.
No, it's okay, but we don'twant to stay there.
We want to, you know, worktowards our spouse and that's
not working towards a number notworking towards a standard that
everybody else says, but aplace where you two both feel
like, okay, we're meeting in themiddle here, we're both trying
(30:57):
to work on the things that wemaybe struggle with didn't have
a desire for growing up, weren'ttaught and it's really
interesting because you say guysweren't taught how to do
emotional connection.
Well, who teaches you how tohave sexual connection Correct,
like that's not something, eventhe best of parents, who maybe
(31:18):
talk about sex and talk aboutwhat that looks like and stuff.
Well, nobody's going to teachyou sexual connection.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
So we're already at a deficit because right emotional
connection can be taught.
I think, sexual connection.
Even for the best of parents,with the best of intentions,
it's really hard to teach a lotof that.
No, you're right.
So like just understanding,like we're both trying to meet
in the middle, we're both tryingto get good information,
(31:49):
understand what's happeninginside of us for both of us, and
then we're trying to findsomewhere in the middle where
we're both like, okay, this isus and this is good.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, and I think most guys just need to hear that
there is a desire to movetowards that middle.
I think so often what they hearand I'm not saying that this is
(32:21):
what even said, but what theyhear is you have to deal with it
on your own and you have tolower your drive, and that's not
my problem.
We're not even having time toconnect, so why would we have
time to have sex?
And I do think this place ofwanting to come to the middle is
(32:42):
an important part of theconversation.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Okay, but that requires a guy to express that
he wants to come to the middletoo.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Right, like that's what I'm saying, like I just
don't feel I feel verypassionately about this that it
takes both people.
So in my opinion I know there'swalls built up with this
there's all kinds of hurts.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
There's tons of hurt and harm.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Oh, and I honor that.
But have someone help younavigate it, because the reality
is as much as the higher drive.
Husband wants to hear that youdesire him and want to move
towards it, that you don't wantto just embrace this life of low
desire.
I think that low desire spousewants to hear that you know you
(33:35):
want to meet in the middle.
You want to be understanding ofhow hard it is Both.
Right, it's potentially hardfor both, but also, at the end
of the day, this isn't all amarriage is, and so we also have
to work with that dynamic, likeit's a very special part and
(33:55):
the Lord gave it specificallyfor marriages, but it's not the
only part.
Right, and if we don't feellike our hearts and who we are
are being held well andcherished well by our spouse,
all of this we're talking aboutis going to be really hard to
meet in the middle.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Correct, and I don't think we can have this
conversation without talkingabout one of the harms of purity
culture.
One of the things I felt like Iwas inadvertently taught was
that sex and marriage was goingto be available any time that I
(34:35):
wanted it.
Like that was that wascommunicated.
I don't get that messagebecause sex isn't by yourself.
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
So like that's physically impossible.
Just saying Sometimes I'm gladI didn't grow up with these
church messages because I'm justlike what in the world is that
Okay?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
but like and I've said this here before but one of
the one of the standout purityculture messages that I remember
was at a large Christiangathering, hearing a big name
Christian leader talking aboutgetting desired off of somebody
who was, in his his mind,dressed inappropriately and
(35:18):
going home and getting gettingaroused off of somebody who was
dressed inappropriately andgoing home and turning all of
that energy to his wife andnever in that story and I don't
think, even like afterwards, Ididn't even think about about
how the wife would feel aboutthat situation and this crowd of
(35:43):
50,000 people were cheeringabout how he took his sexual
desire home and it's like, ohGod, there's so many yuck there
of what that communicates.
(36:03):
Yuck there of of what thatcommunicates.
But I think to me as a teen andlike growing and trying to
figure out what sexual desiremeant, it was this idea that you
know you're supposed to havehave all the sex you want at
home, so that you don't have any, any desire anywhere else,
which is ludicrous and well, yes, but, and that didn't work for
him.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
No, of course it didn't, because he should have
had it all on the other side sothat he wouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Of course.
Anyways, moving right along, nobut I think those unhealthy
messages have seeped into howmost men, christian men, think
about.
But actually I'm going to evengo most men period because I
think this idea of readilyavailable.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Well, because mainstream also promotes it that
way, and I hear you in that,and I know that that's damaging
and wrong.
But there's also some horriblemessages in there for women.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Oh yeah, Right, Absolutely there are.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
And you know, if you don't give it all that your
husband needs, he's going tostray and it's your job to keep
him satisfied.
And you know when you thinkabout that that doesn't sound
very fun.
No, not that.
Sexual intimacy fits manydifferent emotions for us, it's
not always fun.
Many different emotions for us,it's not always fun.
(37:24):
I think sometimes it is in aplace of care of wonder.
There's all kinds of emotionsthat go along with it and I kind
of get irritated with Christianauthors when we say it has to
be these three things all thetime.
Because, I don't know, and Ishare this and I maybe I'll just
be vulnerable and share this,like as the last couple years of
our home life have been um,hard to navigate, hard to figure
(37:48):
out.
I know we once had aconversation where we said what
if sexual intimacy right now isjust um what is the word I used,
I can't remember now.
What if it's just like a placewhere we get to care for each
other?
and right, right like it's.
(38:09):
I'm going to be honest andhopefully this won't sound weird
, but there was not a lot ofspace for fun and spunky right
in that stage.
Right now yeah.
Well, and yes, we're somewhat.
I think now we have a littlebit more space for that.
But right, like the Lorddesigned it to be, if you want
(38:30):
to call it glue, which people do, because glue is sticky and
gross, but anyways, like itserves many purposes and so,
like I think, just rememberingthat let's not chalk it up to be
so one direction of like thisis what it serves.
(38:52):
No, the Lord created it toserve so many things and keeping
that in mind, I think, ishelpful.
Anyways, that was my sidetrack,but I think women are under
this.
You know a lot ofmisinterpretations as well,
correct and expectations of that, and I don't know I'm hearing
(39:14):
them on this end.
I was hearing them as I was ayouth pastor, like they were
kind of still prevalent, sure,because I guess dating goodbye.
I think that came out when Iwas a youth pastor.
Yeah.
Anyway.
So they were still there.
So that would say, actuallypurity culture is very prevalent
, but they like what does thatteach women about their role in
(39:39):
sexual intimacy?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
and then then we have the, the liberation I will like
, and it just gets even moreconfusing I will say, like in my
mindset, which doesn't reallymake a whole lot of sense, but
my mindset was that you, as mywife, would desire it as much as
(40:01):
I did, and so that my cominghome turned on with that idea
that I was taught was-.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Such a great example.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Was like welcomed and going.
Oh yes, of course I would wantthat.
I think that was never actuallycontemplated that desired
differences would be involved ina relationship.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
But I think it's really important to share from
our own story that I alsothought that.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
So imagine you're coming home fitting what you've
been sold.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
I'm not right.
So imagine what that feels likesomething is wrong with me,
because I was sold and was veryexcited, so like there wasn't.
I mean, there was, sure, somenormal nervousness about
something you haven'texperienced before, but like
there were no qualms or issueswith me with that.
And then it was like oh, Ienjoy it when we're having it,
(41:05):
but the rest of the time I couldtake it or leave it like and I
know that sounds harsh, I don'tmean it to sound harsh, but I'm
just trying to be honest and sothen, and I understand, you felt
like you were fed a lie, but sowere women, right, right, it's
like okay, I'm struggling towant it, so what does that mean
(41:25):
about me?
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, and I think that's so important to say is I
think both people are coming tothis difference feeling rather
broken, and so do I, and I thinkwe need to figure out what
speak out of our hurt Right,both of us Exactly right, and I
think we need to figure out whatempathy of both sides of that
(41:49):
actually looks like.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
And remembering that neither side is right or wrong.
Right and and probably for bothsides I've heard this like I.
I literally wished I could havebeen you.
Oh, yeah, and, and, and that mydesire would be like off the
charts and I think many men orhigher drive spouses whichever
(42:14):
wish their desire would dampen.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Oh, every guy that I talk to who have problems with
unwanted sexual behavior havevehemently prayed for that.
Just remove my desire.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
I could be wrong, but I would think, even if that
hasn't been a part of the story,I understand that amps it up
even more, because there's theshame, because in marriage,
marriage the desire is okay andyou're told that, but outside of
marriage you're told it's notso, but, like I would imagine,
they'd at least want it to beless, so that they're not
causing a dynamic orexperiencing their own hurt.
(42:51):
Um, so yeah, I don't know, it'sjust, and I think for young
couples getting married, myheart hurts because I think the
church is starting to come outof some of these lies, starting
to inform people well, or asbest they can.
We can't inform everypremarital couple of every
(43:13):
potential, but we can certainlyspeak to.
Here are some.
If other things come up, comeback and talk to us, right.
But I think the younger versionof you and me, right, we
weren't ready to enter in withempathy because we had been sold
something that we felt like wedeserved.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Correct.
There was entitlement around it, there was anger around it.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Well, the church tells you, do it right and it'll
all be amazing.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Right and there was a whole lot of feeling broken.
That was.
You are correct.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Like, when we feel broken, we end up showing anger,
we end up expressing anger, andthat doesn't help any of this
well, yes, anger, but thereality is anger is just a cover
for a very deeper emotion ofI'll just blanket it as hurt,
(44:10):
yes, and pain, yes, um, and thatis part of the fall like we did
choose life outside of eden andlike we can't, we can't say
that that's this, these are theconsequences, right, but we're
trying to move towards eachother as spouses.
So how do we hold all of thosedifferences that life entails
(44:34):
where sexual intimacy isconcerned well with each other?
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Yeah, I think that's really important, and just the
desire to hold that.
And this is the thing.
Right, that doesn't actuallymean that we automatically have
sex.
It doesn't mean weautomatically say yes.
It doesn't mean weautomatically don't.
Right, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
And I mean, maybe I'm just passionate about this in
general.
I'm so, like, done with I.
Just I'm so done with peopleand like I will love you dot dot
dot as long as this happens, aslong as this.
Yeah, like that's just not theway the Lord intended it to be,
(45:20):
and I think, as marriages, wehave so much further to go in
holding each other well, do Bradand I always do it, absolutely
not because we're human and youknow we're just human.
That's where it ends.
But, like just in everything,there's so many life changes
that happen over the years ofyour marriage.
(45:40):
And how can you enjoy life welltogether and meet in the middle
about as many things aspossible?
Hold it well, you're here onthis, I'm here on this.
What does that look like for usto do it?
Speaker 1 (45:53):
well, that's so many things and I just think, yeah,
there's just a world of hurt outthere and yeah, this is a
really good thing to talk aboutand I hope that it sparks some
conversations for you, and Ihope that this gets a place
(46:15):
where maybe you can see yourspouse differently in where
these desire differences arecoming from and that it might
help you move towards the middle.
And I think that was exactlywhy I wanted to talk about this
topic is I do think there's justso much hurt and so much
(46:35):
frustration in our perspectiveof it that sometimes we miss
where the other person's comingfrom.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
I think we often are, yeah, so I'm just giving looks
over here.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, you're going to make them want us to do a
YouTube video with all thoselooks.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Oh, I could just send you, you like just selfies?
Speaker 1 (46:59):
of all my looks I think this is a really important
conversation and obviously wewent a little bit longer than
our normal podcast, but I'mhoping because my saltiness.
Enjoy some of that conversation.
I'd love to hear from some ofyou.
If you want to reach out to usat help at stillbecomingonecom,
(47:21):
we would love to hear yourthoughts and we'd love to hear
what it's been like for you onyour journey of trying to figure
out what meeting in the middlelooks like.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
So until next time I'm Brad Aldrich.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
And I'm Kate Aldrich.
Be kind and take care of eachother.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Still Becoming One is a production of Aldrich
Ministries.
For more information about Bradand Kate's coaching ministry
courses and speakingopportunities, you can find us
at aldrichministriescom Forpodcast show notes and links to
resources in all of our socialmedia.
Be sure to visit us atstillbecomingonecom and don't
(48:06):
forget to like this episodewherever you get your podcasts.
And be sure to follow us tocontinue your journey on Still
Becoming One.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!