Erich Leidums is the content creator behind That Mountain Life, where he documents his family's outdoor adventures and parenting journey in a small mountain town in the interior of British Columbia, Canada. We discuss the importance of building a fulfilling lifestyle that aligns with your values.
Key Topics:
- The importance of building a fulfilling lifestyle that aligns with your values, freeing yourself from the need for external validation
- Erich’s experiences growing up in Canada and his squiggly career journey through outdoor education, adventure tourism, paramedicine, and becoming a full-time content creator.
- Being an unplanned dad and the challenges and rewards of combining parenting and adventure
- Embracing risk and the power of giving someone a supportive nudge when they are at their edge of their comfort zone
- Why playing poker is a form of meditation, and the one book Erich read in high school that forever changed his life
Full Show Notes
Visit the Grokkist podcast hub for a full digest of this episode including highlights and links to stuff we discussed: https://grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast/s2e13-erich-leidums/
Recorded 3 August 2022
Website: grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast | Email: podcast@grokk.ist | Socials: @grokkist
Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
erich_leidums (00:00):
I had a moment when I was 17 or 18, like go to
school, work, retire, and die?
Like, That's it?! I didn't wantthat.
And I was set on this path of,oh, like it's probably going to
be a lot more fulfilling to workor live a lifestyle that you
want to be doing instead of justsacrificing yourself for a job
or subjecting yourself to a bossthat doesn't treat you well.
I didn't want to be unhappydoing what I did.
(00:22):
And so all of my jobs were wiredwith let's make sure we're
enjoying what we do.
Danu Poyner (00:29):
You're listening to these Still Curious Podcast with
me, Daniel Poyner.
My guest today is Eric Leidums,who is the content creator
behind That Mountain Life, wherehe documents his family's
outdoor adventures and parentingjourney in a small mountain town
in the interior of BritishColumbia, Canada.
Today's conversation is allabout risk, play and reward.
(00:52):
It's about celebrating effort aswell as outcome, learning
through experience and adventureand building confidence and
resilience over time to ride outthe inevitable bumps along the
way.
It's about showing up in theworld, building a fulfilling and
integrated lifestyle that alignswith your values and freeing
yourself from the need forexternal validation.
erich_leidums (01:14):
I stopped caring about grades.
Grades were dead to me.
Just didn't matter because Ididn't need or want that
external validation from ateacher.
And so if I wasn't into anassignment and it didn't feel
aligned with me, I didn't wantto do it.
And probably why I'm unschoolingmy kids now.
Right?
Danu Poyner (01:29):
Eric has been a go getter from the get, go
enterprising and with abackground in adventure tourism,
outdoor education, river guidingand leading youth on wilderness
trips, as well as working as aparamedic.
Now he's busy making videos fora living.
But for Eric, all the hustle isreally about creating a
lifestyle that's fun,interesting and fulfilling for
(01:49):
him and his family.
erich_leidums (01:50):
Mountain life is slower.
It's got movement built in as avalue we're surrounded by
mountains.
So not only do you have this aweand this awesomeness that's the
nature around us.
You can also play and interacton the mountains and with the
mountains.
It snows 20 centimeters and theshops are closed because the
shop owners and staff want to goski the powder.
(02:12):
It's this idea of working tolive and not living to work.
A lot of people are here for thelifestyle, not just to make a
ton of money and maybe have abig career.
Danu Poyner (02:21):
Eric's work and lifestyle is all about combining
parenting and adventure.
The content he creates throughthat mountain life explores
themes of conscious parenting,unschooling and pushing and
stretching our comfort zones insupportive ways.
erich_leidums (02:35):
one of the most rewarding things I feel like as
a mentor a coach is to bepresent at the birth of another
human, being in their flow stateor their edge, like at their
edge.
So the nudge is when a human isat their edge and maybe they
have a story in their head, andthey're saying I'm not sure I
can do this or I'm scared.
I find the nudge is to be thatsupportive voice.
Danu Poyner (02:57):
As usual, this is a conversation that goes on all
sorts of tangents while beingpacked full of surprising
substance throughout.
We talk about being an unplanneddad.
The business mechanics of beinga full-time content creator.
Why playing poker is a form ofmeditation.
And the one book Eric read inhigh school that forever changed
his life.
(03:17):
Enjoy it's Eric litems coming upafter the music on today's
episode of the still curiouspodcast.
(03:50):
Hi, Erich, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you?
erich_leidums (03:52):
I am great.
Thanks for having me here.
Danu Poyner (03:55):
So you're the content creator behind That
Mountain Life, where youdocument your family's outdoor
adventures and parenting journeyin a small mountain town in the
interior of British Columbia,Canada, your videos on YouTube
and Instagram cover outdooradventure, family, conscious
parenting, homeschooling, riskyplay, and small town, mountain
(04:15):
lifestyle among other things.
And, after about three and ahalf years, you're now a
full-time content creator andsocial media influencer
navigating the world of digitalmarketing with over 850,000
followers across all platforms.
What would you say is the mostimportant thing for someone to
understand about you and whatyou do?
erich_leidums (04:33):
Where I am today and creating content full time
is awesome.
It's creative.
That's something I'm reallygrateful for and it comes with a
lot of work, a lot of struggles,a lot of uncertainty.
I feel like it's easy to bescrolling on social media and
say, I want to do that or belike that.
It's a great position at the endand, it you know, the there's
pros and cons to it.
(04:54):
I've never worked harder to paythe bills this way, even though
I have a significant following,it doesn't just land on my lap.
Danu Poyner (05:02):
No, there's a lot of work that goes on behind the
scenes, I think.
Maybe let's talk about thatmountain life, the channel.
How would you describe what goeson there and who it's for?
erich_leidums (05:10):
Yeah, I just started documenting our outdoor
adventures.
It started in the winter,following my kids with the
camera, skiing down ski runs,and I wanted to learn how to
make videos.
And so I taught myself just withYouTube tutorials, how to start
vlogging.
The videos are for anybody thatenjoys the outdoors, anybody
that's a parent, used to be aparent of young kids, or maybe
(05:34):
might become a parent.
I feel like I have peoplewatching me from teenagers to
grandparents.
So, the content is wholesome.
Family centered.
A lot of outdoor activities isthe main theme, and there's
adventure and challenges that weovercome, and then also just a
lot of fun.
It's a lot of action-packed joy.
I feel like, at the end of theday, what I'm doing is sharing
(05:56):
my joy and love that I have ofthe mountains with my kids.
And then I just share that withthe rest of the world as well.
Danu Poyner (06:03):
I've seen your videos.
Wholesome is definitely the wordfor it.
I've seen some of the ones whereyou miked up your daughter going
down the slopes and soarticulate and confident and
fun.
It's really interesting just tosee that vibe.
What's the response been like?
erich_leidums (06:18):
The miked up videos of Attia, she's our
youngest and she's now four.
Those videos were when she was abig two.
So she was like two and threequarters that winter, before she
turned three and the internetloved her voice and just her
articulation and really helpedconnect with viewers in terms of
just, like there was this cuteyoung girl who is very competent
(06:42):
at skiing and, when she'scomfortable and in her flow
state, she babbles and talks andself monologues in a very
adorable way.
And that was the hook that grewmy following, or that was the
sort of the viral videos.
And, February 1st of 2020 or 21,but I had 3000 Instagram
(07:03):
followers and by the end ofMarch, two months later, we had
120 K.
So it just blew up over twomonths of these videos getting
spread.
Danu Poyner (07:10):
Yeah.
Wow! You've got a businessdiploma in adventure tourism,
and you've done ski patrol,river guiding and leading youth
on wilderness trips.
I understand it's that latterthat really lights you up.
Can you share what gets youexcited about witnessing young
people gain an appreciation forwild places?
erich_leidums (07:29):
Working as an outdoor educator is by far one
of the most enjoyableoccupations I had as a young
adult.
I think it's because I was ableto play myself while I was still
working.
There's something aboutstripping down life to more of
the basics.
There's a lot less excess whenyou're out on a multi-day canoe
trip or backpacking trip,trecking, whitewater rafting,
(07:51):
flatwater canoeing.
If you can pack up what you needfor 10 days or 20 days into a 30
liter dry bag or a smallbackpack, and that's all you
need.
And then you go out as acommunity, as a group, you are
this mobile community.
You're forced to face more ofthe basics of life.
I feel like that providesperspective for young people and
it instills confidence andbuilds resilience and people get
(08:15):
to learn a lot about themselveswhen they're in those
environments where you move awayfrom some of those creature
comforts that our society givesus all the time.
So I feel like there's realvalue there, and it's not a
suffer fest by any means, but Ifeel like it's a real
opportunity for youth to justgrow and learn a lot more about
themselves.
Danu Poyner (08:33):
Great answer.
I can feel the enthusiasm forthis radiating off you and as
someone who enjoys theircreature comforts a little too
much, perhaps, it's almostinspiring me to get out there.
I'm not sure if it's going toquite tip me over the edge,
cause I'm pretty set in my ways,but outdoor curious.
Let's put it that way.
You mentioned this phrase justthen as an outdoor educator.
One of the things I always do onthe podcast is ask people to
(08:55):
explain a term of art as if to a10 year old.
I'm wondering if you can explainwhat outdoor education is to a
10 year old.
erich_leidums (09:03):
I think I would say, outdoor education is about
going outside into nature toexperience that nature and
yourself in it.
You can learn about the plantsand the trees and have
experiences with wild animalsand that in itself is almost a
holistic experience and verymemorable at times.
(09:24):
And there's something veryserene and peaceful about being
in that environment.
And then you can also learnagain about yourself in that
more interpersonal, soft skillway, solving problems, you know,
the outdoor environment isnowhere near short of
opportunities and things tocause a problem or you know, an
(09:44):
obstacle in your way, whetherit's inclement weather or just a
tree you want to climb or arapid, you want to navigate down
a river and you want to do itsafely.
And.
I just realized I lost theten-year-old.
I started off with aten-year-old definition, but,
uh, kept going.
Danu Poyner (10:00):
Thank you for that.
I'd be really interested ifyou've got any examples you can
share from those trips aboutsome of those problems and
challenges that arise that areunplanned, I guess.
erich_leidums (10:10):
Yeah, like a really good, simple example
would be if somebody goes to bedin a tent, let's say you have a
couple of 13 year olds on acanoe trip.
And, as an instructor and as theleader, you explained to them
the importance of taking care oftheir stuff.
That's a value that's reallyimportant.
And maybe they go to bed onenight in a tent and they leave
their rain jacket on the rocksand the wind picks up at night
(10:34):
and all of a sudden they're nolonger with a rain jacket
because it got picked up andblown down the river and so what
do we do for the next six dayswhere, maybe the weather is
going to be friendly and theyget away with it.
Maybe it gets cool and rainy,and now you have participants
offering to share their rainjacket, to help out with this
person.
And I guarantee you that veryexperiential lesson with a real
(10:56):
consequential outcome ofchoosing to do it their way or
whatnot, it's just an experiencewhere they get to learn.
I think that's a good concreteexample of what experiential
education is.
You can maybe say it and stateit as an educator or a teacher
or instructor, but until youlive it and experience the
consequences and you want toobviously mitigate and not have
(11:20):
consequences be too dire anddrastic.
And I feel like that's one ofthe key roles as an outdoor
educator is to, make sure you'reobjectively assessing the risks
and that the group is stillwithin a reasonable tolerance of
staying safe.
Right.
Danu Poyner (11:32):
A really good explanation.
Thank you.
I had another guest on here talkabout experiential learning as
having an undeniable experience,which I think is a nice way of
capturing that kind ofconsequential thing you're
talking about.
On the education front, are youdoing anything to reflect on
what they take out of thoseexperiences?
Do you have a debrief or isthere an activity about what
(11:54):
they learned or how does thatwork?
erich_leidums (11:57):
Yeah.
Communication is an essentialsoft-skill interpersonal skill
to develop when you're out as ateam or a group navigating the
wilderness or an outdoorsetting.
And so, we're constantlydebriefing and even
front-loading parts of a day oran activity.
And then stepping back and notintervening when it's optimal
(12:18):
and then stepping in when it'snecessary and of course,
reflecting and debriefinganything that needs to happen.
Danu Poyner (12:24):
I'm interested in the way that your videos can
combine education and parentingand adventure.
And I'd love to talk a bit aboutyour philosophy of parenting and
education, I guess I hear yousay a fair bit.
Don't bubble wrap your kids.
What does that phrase mean toyou?
erich_leidums (12:41):
Well, yeah, that's an adage that I think I
even heard that phrase as a kida little bit here and there.
I never really gave much thoughtto it.
You know, the term helicopterparenting is a relatively new
term.
I think in the early twothousands, there's some academia
and stuff, talking aboutstudying social sciences of
different parenting techniquesand talking about risk and being
risk adverse.
(13:01):
You know, the road to hell canbe paved with the best of
intentions is a quote.
And it's very instinctual on onelevel to want to protect our
kids from the world's ills andharms and not just physically,
but also emotionally andpsychologically.
I quickly could see how, I don'tknow what it is.
It's just a cultural kind ofawareness I had, that if you
(13:24):
avoid risk all the time and tryto stay out of harm's way, then
you're not embracing the fullhuman experience of what it
means to be alive, which hasrisks built into it and even
harm and pain and loss andsuffering.
All that is part of our humanpsyches.
I'm a dad, I'm wired to keep mykids safe and provide for them
(13:46):
physically, emotionally,psychologically.
I want to provide like nothingelse.
But in that I realized that Ithink the best way to provide is
to not overbearingly protectthem too much because they need
to build resilience and skillsto be able to become atonomous
young adults who are going to beable to be confident, navigating
(14:09):
the pain and suffering andsadness that comes with life
when things don't go as planned.
Danu Poyner (14:13):
Is it significant that there was such a big
response to your videos at thetime around the start of the
pandemic?
Given what you're saying aboutrisk being built into life?
Or is that an overreach?
erich_leidums (14:26):
Yeah, I think that's just coincidence in terms
of that.
I feel like this is deeplyingrained in a lot of Western
culture.
I mean, If you're in poverty andin war torn countries and in
rural environments.
And I think in much of theworld, the west is almost an
exception in the level ofcomfort and excess that they
have.
And I feel like helicopterparenting is more prevalent in
(14:48):
America and Canada and maybesome of the other Commonwealth
type nations, even in Europe, inGermany though.
There's subtle cultural, nuanceddifferences where that's not as
prevalent.
My wife read a book about a momwho moved from the U S to
Germany, and she was justbaffled at how many kids were
walking to school and takingpublic transit blocks and blocks
(15:09):
away from home at a very youngage.
So there's this cultural, deeplyingrained thing that's happening
on a generational level in thewest.
when people watch the videos,they're like, oh, there's this
dad doing it this way.
That's not overprotecting hiskids.
And that kind of resonates andlands.
Danu Poyner (15:24):
I heard you say, kids thrive when empowered to
take risks, navigate challenges,and learn what they're capable
of.
You're about celebrating effort,not just the outcome and your
approach is to give kids as muchopportunity as possible to make
their own choices, even whenit's not exactly what you would
choose to do.
I'm curious how you came to thatphilosophy.
Was it part of your experiencegrowing up?
erich_leidums (15:46):
I was a nineties kid in a small town in Canada.
I'm in a mid-sized town.
And I, I was able to roam aroundand play freely in my
neighborhood, on a bike with myfriends in the neighbourhood.
Impromptu hockey games,exploring the forest, you know,
went to summer camps and therewas lots of free time and play.
And played hard and reallyenjoyed a lot of unstructured
(16:06):
play.
At the same time, I was alsohighly scheduled, went to school
and I got a lot of praise andattention and love from my
parents or adults when I didwell in school or sports or
extracurricular.
That achievement externalvalidation.
And so as an adult, I've donesome work to be aware of those
(16:29):
patterns and trends of puttingtoo much emphasis on the outcome
and the achievement.
And then I also really relatedto my upbringing of having space
to roam around and be free.
I'm very reflective.
And I like to think about thingsand ask questions as you do.
And I'm curious.
And so one way I describe how Iparent is I'm reflective.
I like to reflect on ourparenting strategies and
(16:50):
techniques.
And so when our young kids,every six months they grow and
change and then we're justalways reflecting on how can we
meet their needs the best, andmaybe what we did last year
isn't the best for them thisyear, because they're older and
we need to adapt.
And I'm just constantlyreflecting on what we could do
to meet our kids' needs.
Danu Poyner (17:08):
Was there ever a time that you played really hard
and had to meet some of theconsequences of your actions
that you learned from, like on atrip?
erich_leidums (17:17):
I had lots of big crashes on the bike.
I remember one time, I wasprobably 12, racing around the
block and we slipped out on somegravel on the pavement and I was
just covered in road rash andabbrasions and cuts from head to
toe.
There we were 11, 12 years oldin the neighborhood and I'm a
block away from home.
And I remember my mom stickingme in a bath full of hydrogen
peroxide and it's just stingedand burned.
(17:40):
And I mean, I have, I think,lots of minor to moderate
injuries as a kid, right.
When you're kind of going hardas a boy playing, but
fortunately nothing significant.
Danu Poyner (17:49):
I like this idea you have of nudging, pushing and
stretching someone's comfortzone in a supportive way.
What can you tell me about thatidea of nudging?
erich_leidums (17:59):
I'm really starting to love this concept.
I think as a parent, I often seemyself as a coach or a mentor,
uh, especially when there's anactivity involved or a task, and
maybe they are learning at theirown pace.
It's one of the most rewardingthings I feel like as a mentor a
coach is to be present at thebirth of another human, being in
(18:21):
their flow state or their edge,like at their edge.
So the nudge is when a human isat their edge and maybe they
have a story in their head, andthey're saying I'm not sure I
can do this or I'm scared.
I find the nudge is to be thatsupportive voice.
Our son, August the oldest, he'sactually quite reserved.
And on the timid side, when itcomes to outdoor adventure
sports, he doesn't have a highcompetitive drive.
(18:43):
He doesn't have that killerinstinct to want to be the best
and send himself off lifts orjumps.
I'm totally okay with thatbecause it's just one less thing
I have to worry about.
I know he's going to make aconservative decision.
And when I was teaching him howto ski, I was attuned to the
days where he wasn't open tobeing pushed and we would just
cruise and have fun.
(19:03):
So if we go skiing 10 days intwo weeks, which wasn't uncommon
or in maybe a 20 day period, wego skiing 10 times eight of them
we do what he is comfortable andwhat he knows, and we're singing
and dancing and playing andhaving fun.
And we're just enjoying it andthere's no push or nudge, but
then on day nine, maybe theconditions are good.
(19:24):
And he's just got a lot ofpractice over those previous
eight days.
And so day nine is the day wherehe's ready to get nudged to the
next thing.
And he's not even so sure thathe might be able to do it, but
it's coming from him, he'sshowing interest.
And then I can nudge and say,yeah, but I think you can do
this.
That's what the nudge is allabout to me.
Danu Poyner (19:43):
Yeah, that's really powerful.
A lot of the stories that peopletell me on this podcast about
moments that have really openedthem up and sent them down new
pathways have been about thosenudge moments, where they had
someone in a supportive andnurturing relationship who
really saw them and then justgave them a push at the right
moment.
(20:03):
That stuff really changes lives.
erich_leidums (20:05):
In the parenting realm, there's the old school,
or maybe the more abrasive, lessempathetic way of like, you
know, your eight year old childdoesn't know how to swim or your
10 year old and you throw themoff the dock and you say, figure
it out.
And then the over-protective waymight be you have a 15 year old,
and there's nothing wrong withnever having learned how to swim
in a vacuum, but, if you'regoing to always just stay
(20:27):
comfortable, as a parent, you'rejust going to comfort them in
that and that's all you do, thenthey're never going to dip their
toe in the water because you'venever nudged them to.
And so the nudge is the balancebetween those two strategies.
I don't want to throw my kidsoff the dock and force them to
be uncomfortable and scared.
Danu Poyner (20:45):
I liked the way you framed that as holding it in
balance between two extremes,but there's a lot that goes into
reading that balance.
I think.
How do you tell when someone'sready for it?
erich_leidums (20:55):
Yeah, I think it's attunement to their energy
and being aware of their skill.
So remind my son that I willnever suggest him to try
something that I know he's notready for.
Like with a child walking.
When they're first learning howto walk, they fall down so many
times, but like five days intotheir first steps, maybe they
took a break and they they don'twant to continue doing it.
(21:17):
10 days later, they're back intoit.
And it's just amazing howincrementally, especially young
kids under seven every week,every month is like this.
They're sponges and they'regrowing so fast.
I feel like it's just thisbalance of wanting to support
them and meet them at theircomfort zone and then paying
attention for when they'reready.
And a lot of the time it canjust come on their own and they
(21:39):
just do it experientiallywithout a nudge because they're
just growing and they're gainingtheir own confidence.
When they fall down and have alittle crash, usually there's a
psychological confidence drop,which makes sense.
And that's a good, healthybalance.
I fell trying this jump.
I now have road rash.
They're not going to try thatjump again the rest of that day
or the next week, maybe becausethey need to regain their
(22:01):
confidence.
So as somebody paying attentionto when are they ready for the
nudge?
I don't know.
I feel like a lot of what I do.
It's hard to describe becauseit's just this attunement and
presence and love that goes intoit.
Danu Poyner (22:13):
I'm interested in the story that connects the
outdoor education work you'redoing to the content creation
work you're doing now.
Content creator is not acategory that's existed for that
long.
Did you have a plan A when youwere little?
erich_leidums (22:27):
I was a straight A student in school, I was being
groomed to go to post-secondaryeducation.
Grades came easy to me.
I enjoyed school.
I read a book when I was 17called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
and I almost dropped out ofschool.
if you're familiar with ChrisMcCandless and the movie, Into
The Wild, or the book by JohnKrakauer.
He's a kid in the U S thatbasically is disenfranchised
(22:50):
with the establishment and justgoes off the deep end and moves
into Alaska, lives in a schoolbus.
He basically starved in the wildtrying to survive, like a modern
day, Henry David Thoreau, gonnamove into the woods and say, see
you later society.
I had a moment when I was 17 or18, like go to school, work,
retire, and die.
Like, That's it.
I didn't want that.
And I was set on this path of,oh, like it's probably going to
(23:11):
be a lot more fulfilling to workor live a lifestyle that you
want to be doing instead of justsacrificing yourself for a job
or subjecting yourself to a bossthat doesn't treat you well.
And all this stuff, I didn'twant to be unhappy doing what I
did.
So I loved skiing and I moved tothe mountains to start ski
patrolling and, That was after Iwas an educator and worked at
summer camps.
(23:32):
And so all of my jobs were wiredwith let's make sure we're
enjoying what we do.
Our first child August wasunplanned.
It was a woopsie.
That was where I was like, okay,maybe I'm going to need to up my
game here a little bit.
I'm not going to be able to justbe a raft guide and ski
patroller forever.
But with that being said, I wasreally good with money and being
frugal.
And I became a paramedic becauseit was the natural progression
(23:55):
after ski patrolling and doingfirst aid.
I love helping people andnavigating tough situations and
problem solving and being afirst responder has that.
Just thinking about work andreflecting on creating a living,
I had this drive to be anentrepreneur.
I thought about Instead of justexchanging my time for a
paycheck forever at a job, whatcould I do to become an
(24:17):
entrepreneur?
And so this idea of likestarting a side hustle, side
hustle culture on the internetis everywhere.
And I think there's a lot of BSand smoke screens for a lot of
it.
I ended up following GaryVaynerchuk.
He's not loved by everybody.
He's critiqued a little bit ofmaybe being too much hustle
culture because he's just a gogetter.
But he instilled this idea ofwhen it comes to social media
(24:38):
content creation, it's aboutdocumenting your authentic self
and your story, not creating.
And that is what made me realizeit's all they have to do.
Use a GoPro or my cell phone andjust record what happens.
And I can pull little snippetsfrom that to tell a story from
our skiing day or our mountainbiking adventure.
(25:01):
I read more of Gary's work, hisguide to growing on Instagram.
And it was just this idea ofinstead of watching Netflix at
night every night and relaxing,what could I do to invest in
myself to maybe learn some newskills that I could monetize as
a side business, along the way,which would help provide for my
family.
Again, I want to do it withsomething that I love doing and
(25:23):
that's fun and interesting.
Danu Poyner (25:24):
It sounds like that drive to be an entrepreneur was
sitting there for a while, andthen you were looking for
something to attach it to.
How did that moment ofrealization happen?
Was it a sudden flash or did itcreep up on you?
erich_leidums (25:37):
I didn't know.
So personal finance wasinteresting to me investing and
entrepreneurship is a lot aboutgenerating cashflow and solving
problems and providing value.
And then you monetize that andwhether it's a product or a
service or an artist, you areproviding value that people pay
for.
And I didn't know what businessI was gonna run or do.
(26:00):
I just always knew that it wassomething that I wanted to do
and is really rewarding.
Cause there's no ceiling therelike there is when you're an
employee.
It took me a couple months,maybe even, almost a year.
When we went viral on Instagramand then Tik Tok to come into it
and realize, okay, how can Imake money doing this now that
we have a big enough audience?
(26:22):
I was kind of paralyzed withwhat to do first because when
you run a business and you'remaking content, there's lots of
stuff to do behind the backend.
And I didn't know what toprioritize my time doing.
That held me up for a little bitand I kept getting in the ring
and doing stuff and tryingstuff, even hired a couple of
people to help me that didn'twork out.
Now.
I have two people, an amazingteam, and they're doing all the
(26:43):
right things, helping me and Ican just focus on content
creation a lot more.
So it's good.
Danu Poyner (26:48):
All of these ideas sound like very well-packaged
reflections that you've becomecomfortable with over a long
period of time.
But I want to go back to thatbook that you were talking about
when you were 17.
What happened?
Tell me, Tell me about this bookand where were you when you read
it?
It's very unusual to hear astory like that.
erich_leidums (27:06):
Grade 11 biology class and it wasn't even part of
the curriculum.
The teacher that assigned it,assigned it because the head of
the science department wouldassign this book when he was
teaching this grade biologyclass.
I read the book and just had somany aha moments that I think
philosophically and culturally,I hadn't really been introduced
to before.
It just struck a chord.
(27:27):
It just pulled at myheartstrings and I had to read a
two page assignment.
It probably took me 15 minutesto write my two pages.
I remember we had a classdiscussion about it the next
morning, Danu, and I thoughtthat like everybody else was
going to be on the same page.
It is an epiphany moment wheremy life was one thing before
that.
And afterwards it set me on apath to realize I can question
(27:51):
societal and social norms.
I can question institutions.
It helped me become curiousagain.
I felt alone.
I was in school.
I was on basketball team.
Nobody really wanted to talkabout it.
And he, you know, I'm obviouslypassionate about it.
Eventually I, you know, I gotsuspended because I'd sang a
gold finger song that was allabout anti schooling and factory
(28:12):
farming.
And I dropped an F-bomb at aschool cafeteria music thing,
got suspended.
So I was sort of like, rebellingand coming into my own and for a
good four or five years, I justwas pretty like
antiestablishmentary.
There was three or four teachersat my school that were like,
right on Eric.
You are on your path now and Ican see you.
And a lot of other teachers werelike, what happened to you?
(28:35):
You used to be such a goodstudent.
Danu Poyner (28:37):
What an incredible transformation.
It sounds like this teacher whoassigned that book outside the
curriculum, might've been a bitof a rebel as well.
What was his deal?
erich_leidums (28:46):
Yeah, Dr.
Carly.
He's on Vancouver island, Ithink full-time, I haven't been
in touch with him in a while,but, yeah, he was obviously I
think probably in his forties,maybe.
At that time as a teacher andwas a heck of a lot more calm
and centered and had more yearsunder his belt to reflect on all
of our society's issues and ourcultural issues.
He helped me afterwards and hadme over for afternoon tea and
(29:08):
stuff to like, just keepthinking and discussing stuff
after a little bit.
So that was good.
He was a bit of a mentor forsure, in that stage of my life.
Danu Poyner (29:17):
You said something really interesting.
You said it helped yourediscover your curiosity and
you were 17 and you were doingreally well in school.
What had happened to yourcuriosity?
You were doing well, but youweren't curious.
erich_leidums (29:32):
I knew the playbook.
I knew what was expected of mefrom my teachers and parents to
be successful.
And so it was a game, I couldpay attention in class, I kind
of was efficient at studying, anew homework can easy to me.
I was very efficient andstudious and absorbed, whatever.
And then I had to regurgitatethe test on paper and that was
(29:52):
easy to me for whatever reason.
It wasn't challenging.
I was a product of myenvironment and my socialization
and culture.
I wasn't me.
I mean, I was me and I was, youknow, I was still there, but I
wasn't fully me because I wasunconsciously being programmed
to fit the mold and do theplaybook because that was going
(30:13):
to be the most successful thing.
Danu Poyner (30:15):
So, what would you have done if you hadn't read
this book, do you think?
What would Eric be doing now?
erich_leidums (30:22):
I don't know because there's obviously no
shortage of authors and artistsand musicians and jesters and
other works that are poking atand critiquing the status quo.
Maybe it was alive in me in someway that would have come out in
other ways or whatnot.
And maybe I would have gone touniversity and gone down that
path and would have been like alot of post-grads who end up
(30:43):
with a degree and they're stillnot sure what they want to do
with themselves.
I embraced the uncertainty a lotearlier.
It's almost like I had mymidlife crisis at 17.
Danu Poyner (30:53):
I'm still picturing you rushing into class the day
afterwards full of enthusiasm.
And then the reaction to that.
What happened to your friendshipgroup and what did your family
make of this?
erich_leidums (31:04):
Yeah.
My parents were a bit worried.
My mom was worried.
I think I adopted the poor mething.
Like I felt really alone.
I felt disconnected from thefriend groups and people in my
whole life that I had built myidentity around.
I literally felt like I didn'twant to be a part of that
anymore.
It wasn't leading me to where Iauthentically was maybe destined
(31:27):
to go.
I mean, I didn't use thatlanguage back then, but, yeah,
I, I felt alone.
I definitely found new friendsthat I could philosophize with
and talk about stuff and havesome more intellectual
conversations about society andschool.
And I shifted gears.
I stopped caring about grades.
Grades were dead to me.
Just didn't matter because Ididn't need or want that
(31:48):
external validation from ateacher.
And so if I wasn't into anassignment and it didn't feel
aligned with me, I didn't wantto do it.
And that's probably why I'munschooling my kids now.
Right?
Danu Poyner (31:58):
yeah.
What does unschooling look likefor them?
erich_leidums (32:01):
Well, our kids are four, seven and nine.
And so, only in the last year orso do we feel like our oldest
might need a bit more or we canstructure our day to give him
more support to nourish hisinner spark and curiosity and
interest because under the ageof seven, if I was to pick a
(32:25):
arbitrary age cutoff, seven andunder.
Play play, play, play play iswhat we value, play is the work
of a child, and so much learningis happening through play.
So my wife started and founded aforest school, which is an
outdoor experiential type spacefor kids to be in a group.
It's mostly unstructured freeplay.
(32:46):
We love just giving space forour kids to play.
And unschooling is going toshift and change for us a little
bit as we get into the middleyears of our kids now.
August is going to be 10 nextyear and so it's going to shift
a little bit for him when it'snot gonna be the same as what it
has been so far.
Danu Poyner (33:02):
It strikes me how intentionally you're going about
this and again, thereflectiveness really comes
through.
You said that you were kind of aa unplanned dad and you were
pretty frank about that.
How did your life change as aresult of that and did that all
start immediately.
Tell me about that, if you don'tmind?
erich_leidums (33:20):
Yeah.
I mean, I've made up a YouTubevideo on it.
There was a mountain love storycontest.
And so I shared our story of,you know, conceiving a child and
not planning it.
The long and short of it is Ihad just gotten out of a
different relationship, move tothis mountain town Fernie, no
plans to commit to anotherrelationship anytime soon or in
(33:41):
the near term.
But I met Courtney and we had agreat time and had a connection,
enjoyed our winter together.
And then I was off galavantingaround, working down in the
states, doing some river tripwork.
And when we reconvene thatfollowing fall, we picked up
where we left off with ourattraction and connection, and
we conceived a child by it,unplanned and Courtney thought
(34:03):
she couldn't get pregnant.
That was incorrect and that'smore than okay.
It was obviously a huge pivotalmoment.
I was 25 years old when I foundout, 26 when I became a dad and
I was just 120% on board withwhatever Courtney wanted to do
with her decision for thatsituation.
(34:23):
For whatever reason, I have thisdeep acceptance of even if we
could no longer be together in arelationship, I was going to
show up for that kid and makesure I took responsibility for
my actions.
I don't know.
I just felt called to do that.
So I wasn't worried.
No matter what direction or whatcame of that situation.
I knew that everything wouldwork out and Courtney bless her
(34:44):
heart.
I love my partner so much.
She also operates from this deeptrust of like, everything can
work out, everything's going towork out.
So we both operate from thislens and we subconsciously
always come back to that anchorpoint, like everything's going
to work out.
And so that's the premise westarted our family
Danu Poyner (35:02):
Can I ask you a bit about paramedicine work?
That seems important.
What's it like being a firstresponder in a tight knit
community?
erich_leidums (35:11):
Yeah.
I think it's easier being aparamedic in a small town than a
big urban environment.
I'm in rural BC, a town of 5,000people.
There's back roads that arenamed after families that I have
helped their grandparents.
Their aging grandparents are theones that maybe they or their
grandparents, the roads arenamed after them.
So you get to see a lot of thesame faces.
(35:32):
I mean, We're not a tiny town oflike 500 people.
you know, There's people that wedon't know in this community.
But it was a very rewarding job.
It was flexible hours.
I could work as many or aslittle shifts as I wanted, and
that played a key role in ourlifestyle because we loved our
mountain town lifestyle morethan just the careers we were
(35:53):
doing and having.
And so paramedicine, the way theschedule worked out here was I
could work 30 days in a row or Icould work three days and have
10 off.
So I could do what I wanted andthat helped design the lifestyle
we wanted.
Danu Poyner (36:07):
So tell me about what you really like about that
lifestyle and the communitywhere you're living and the
landscape.
What can you share about it forsomeone who maybe hasn't
experienced that?
erich_leidums (36:16):
Mountain life is slower.
It's got movement built in as avalue for most people.
You can go for a walk along theriver and the trails or the
forest, or you can go trailrunning or mountain biking up
every mountain we're surroundedby mountains.
So not only do you have this aweand this awesomeness that's the
(36:37):
nature around us.
You can also play and interacton the mountains and with the
mountains.
You can just go for a 45 minutebike ride before you start work.
It snows 20 centimeters and theshops are closed because the
shop owners and staff want to goski the powder.
I've been to Costa Rica too,that pura vida.
It's this idea of working tolive and not living to work.
A lot of people are here for thelifestyle, not just to make a
(37:00):
ton of money and maybe have abig career.
Danu Poyner (37:03):
I love the facility you have for words, and how you
package these thoughts up andI'm just reflecting on what you
said before, play is the work ofa child and right at the start,
you said that you wanted to playwhile still working.
Is the content creation play, oris it a lot of work?
Sometimes what happens tocontent creators is there's a
lot of burnout there and I'mcurious about that.
erich_leidums (37:23):
Yeah.
I'm being mindful of that.
And I'm kind of catching myselfin a phase of checking in again
of, well, how much time do Ireally want to spend in an
office editing?
I'm also realizing like if I'mnot eating that well, and then I
don't sleep as well, I come intothe office and I'm not nearly as
efficient with my time as Icould be.
There's lots of stuff that as anentrepreneur, as a freelance,
(37:45):
creative working for myself, youknow, maybe I build in my
schedule that day is like, I gotthe kids for three hours in the
morning and Courtney is doingsomething that she needs to do
or wants to do.
And then I got my afternoon, Iget in the office and then
sometimes I'm not in my creativeflow, I don't feel like editing,
but that was my five hours whereI kinda need to.
And I feel like any creative outthere can relate to that.
(38:06):
I'm having some successmonetizing since April and the
moment that I can outsource someediting work.
I'm going to do that.
That makes sense for me.
But I'm excited winter's comingaround the corner and no time,
and I'm going to be not skipatrolling for the first time in
14 winters.
And I'm going to be a full-timeYouTuber.
Our winter ski content has themost eyeballs and I'm going to
(38:28):
triple down next winter.
And I want to be efficient withmy editing and also feed the
YouTube algorithm machine asmuch content as I can.
Danu Poyner (38:38):
Where do you see yourself going with it, but also
what does success look likealong the way?
Because it's not just theoutcome.
erich_leidums (38:43):
yeah, success for me is being able to sustain our
necessary living through this.
And so by that metric, I'msuccessful.
It's working.
It's only been three or fourmonths, so there's going to be
some uncertainty and maybemonths or stretches that are a
little bit leaner than othertimes.
(39:04):
I want to just continue refiningmy messages and our values and
be able to articulate and tellstories in a more effective way
that can really impact andinspire others.
I feel like much of what I'mdoing is telling a story,
telling my story, documenting astory.
(39:24):
And based on the feedback I'vegotten from some followers and
comments and DMS, there's a lotof people getting value from the
stories that I'm sharing andtelling.
That motivates me to keep going.
I just built a recent websitewith some help of the two people
that are helping me with mybusiness backend.
And I want my website and myYouTube channel to be a source
of family and parentinginspiration for all things
(39:47):
outdoor and maybe adventuretravel as well.
And so I'm really excited,where, you know, I feel like my
family is going to get a bunchof opportunities that we
probably never would've hadbefore, with even international
trips and all sorts ofadventures that could be really
cool.
Continue experimenting, weavingmore meaningful conversations
(40:07):
into my content aroundunschooling.
really poking that bear a bit,the modern day schooling
assumption of, if you don'tteach your kids top down,
they're not going to besuccessful.
I have all the faith in theworld that my children are going
to be well-rounded individualsthat know who they are and are
going to have skills and theability to learn whatever they
need to learn, to pursuewhatever they want to pursue.
(40:28):
And at the end of the day, Ifeel like every parent wants
that for their kids.
My kids are only gonna be youngand cute for so long and the
internet finds that adorable.
But I know that I have more of amessage and meaning that I want
to keep telling stories about.
Danu Poyner (40:43):
I'm coming back to how articulate your daughter
comes across in the videos whereyou have her miked up.
In one of them she asks if youcan carry her so she has more
energy for the turns on the skislope.
How conscious and how involvedis she with her role in the way
you're documenting your familyadventures?
erich_leidums (41:02):
Yeah.
I think I really started makingvideos when she was a baby.
And so she knows that daddymakes videos.
That's a part of our lifestyleand you know, the camera's not
in their face 24 7.
I'm mindful and I'm gratefulthat the camera is not on more
than it is off.
If that makes sense.
Yes.
I'm documenting a lot of ouroutings and days, but like at
(41:23):
the end of the day, there'sstory time and puzzle time and
we're coloring and we're bikingaround the neighborhood at
night.
And I don't bring a camera or aphone.
And, l love that I'm mindful ofthat.
The kids don't watch theInstagram short clips or the Tik
Toks.
They have no idea about views orlikes or followers.
What we tell them is daddy makesvideos and some people like
(41:43):
watching them or daddy makevideos, and this is his job.
And we're really grateful we getto do this together as a family.
And she knows no different.
Danu Poyner (41:53):
I wonder You said some people like the videos, do
you ever get any pushback ornegative responses from people
about the ideas?
What does that look like andwhere does it come from?
erich_leidums (42:03):
biggest pushback or the most common form of it is
just in terms of risk.
There are people out there thatdeem what I'm doing is
unacceptable and totallyinappropriate for the safety of
the child and that I'm possiblyeven doing it for the views.
And Knowing myself, the videosare truly documentative in
(42:23):
nature.
And, for example, our two yearold, all of our kids at two
skied off polar peak at FernieAlpine resort.
So it's the top of the mountain.
And I always did it in springand it's almost like a Rite of
passage in our family and I didit with August when I didn't
make videos.
I think I had Luca, maybe he wasthree and I filmed it but I was
already doing these like by somepeople's standards seem crazy
(42:44):
things or outrageous things.
It's just who we are.
I've learned that a lot ofpeople who are out there
creating and doing big things,or just following their hearts,
they're not doing it withoutruffling some feathers in some
way, shape or form.
I'm not actively looking to beconfrontational, but at the end,
you're never going to be able toplease everybody.
So when Attia went viral, herstuff got picked up on ESPN,
(43:06):
CNN, and Barstool sports onInstagram.
And when you started reading thecomments of the viral pages that
picked up my pages, I startedreading them and I feel like 90%
of them were overwhelminglypositive.
And then there was a good 10% oflike, this is ridiculous.
This is outrageous.
I can't believe people arecelebrating this, like this dad
(43:27):
should be in jail.
Like You get all sorts of stuff.
Danu Poyner (43:29):
I can see in your videos people who meet up with
you on the slopes and beinginspired by your content to go
outside and have their ownadventures.
What's the most surprising thingthat's come out of this for you
so far?
erich_leidums (43:45):
One of our income streams right now is to go on
trips and document ouradventures.
And so we'll partner with atourism organization,
predominantly, are the ones whohave a marketing budget and
they're going to spend it onprofessional videos on Facebook
ads on traditional marketing.
And then they're also going toallocate some of it to social
(44:06):
media, influencer marketing.
So we get to now go on tripswith restaurant food budgets.
The cocktails are included onthem if we want a lot of the
time.
We're kind of getting wined anddined and hosted as a family at
these resorts.
Our lifestyle is around doingthese adventurous, outdoor
things where it doesn't costthat much money because it's
(44:28):
integrated into our lifestyleand it's our value.
Whereas I feel like if you'reworking and you get vacation
weeks, you're working a careerin an urban environment and you
enjoy the mountains and mountainbiking or skiing, then you're
going to be the one to go andspend a week at a resort at a
hotel and buy the tickets.
We could even really afford totravel and go experience these
(44:50):
things that costs a lot of moneyto do.
So now with that mountain life,having a following, we get to go
experience a lot of cool thingsin our outdoor niche and in our
traveling interests that wenever would've had before.
Danu Poyner (45:05):
Was there a moment when you kind of kick back and
went, Hey, this is working?
erich_leidums (45:08):
It's really just recently, the last few months
where booking a few trips thatpaid and then landing a few new
sponsorship deals.
Cause in the world of socialmedia influencing, what's really
prevalent is, Hey, we'll giveyou our product for free and you
make a video and you use it asyou see fit.
And oftentimes there's noobligation, no set amount of
(45:29):
deliverables and content youhave to make.
It doesn't help me buy groceriesor pay the mortgage.
And I don't just want endlessamounts of stuff in our house.
So this spring and summer, we'vebeen successful at being able to
pay the mortgage and buygroceries and cover our costs as
a freelance creative, and it'sworking and I have a team of two
people, Katie and will, I'm sograteful.
(45:51):
They're a business to business,backend automation.
They help people become moreefficient with all their
business issues on the backend.
And they're SEO experts, andthey're really good at what they
do.
So they're helping me with thebackend and a good chunk of my
monthly cashflow is goingtowards them, but it's all going
to help me hopefully build amore sustainable website and
(46:12):
business and profit model wherewe can generate some income.
YouTube it's like writing abook.
You make a YouTube.
Nobody watches it.
But three years later, all of asudden people are watching
videos you made three years ago.
And now that video has made youa hundred dollars and I didn't
get paid at cent when I made it.
Right.
So it's it's pretty cool.
Danu Poyner (46:32):
I'm interested how you think about filling your cup
now, given that your lifestyleis also your work.
What do you do to fill your cup?
erich_leidums (46:41):
That's a really great question and something I'm
actually working on with my ownlife coach right now.
I've just had this realization,that much of what I do, even for
my own time and recreation, I'malways on, right?
Like I'm on.
I enjoy playing poker and that'snot a very relaxing game.
It's a very mentally intensegame.
(47:02):
Same with going mountain bikingor skiing.
You're just physically, alwaysdoing something.
And I've never had a problem infilling my own cup in terms of
doing some recreation activitiesto do what I want to do, but I'm
just realizing how I need to andwant to pay attention to being
off, just as a doer and as aprovider and as a dad.
(47:23):
You can tell by how I talk.
I'm a zestful ball of energy andwouldn't change that for the
world, but I need to make sureI'm able to turn off and I'm
working on that.
Danu Poyner (47:35):
You mentioned poker and I have to go on that tangent
for a moment.
What do you like about that?
erich_leidums (47:40):
The hardest game I've ever played.
It's a game that's taught me alot about myself because you can
do all the right things and losein the short term and have a
negative outcome.
Or you can do all the wrongthings and get rewarded in the
short term.
And that psychologically andemotionally is really
challenging.To be successful atpoker you have to be disciplined
(48:03):
and patient, and you have to doall the little things right for
a long enough time.
You need a big enough samplesize.
Everyone gets the same cards.
It's a strategy game.
In many ways.
I feel like it's a microcosm ofcapitalism.
You know, love it or hate it.
It's definitely has itsdownsides, but it's a game.
And it's played with adults whoare consenting to play this game
(48:23):
with money and the chips andmoney are, how you keep score.
And I've just really have beengravitated to poker because of
how challenging it is.
I used to play chess as a kid.
And when I found poker, I waslike, oh, this is even harder.
Emotionally and mentally, maybenot strategically wise, but
there's that emotional aspect.
Danu Poyner (48:40):
Do you take any of those lessons into other parts
of your life that you've learnedfrom poker?
erich_leidums (48:46):
I think I, did because I do, because I, in
philosophy in high school, Iremember I wrote a paper on the
similarities between poker andlife and risk for sure is in
that and also outcomes likeshowing up in the ring and doing
your best and then still losing.
Realizing that you can come backthe next day or take a break and
you still got to show up.
(49:06):
Again, poker's a game ofmistakes and, you know, he who
makes the least mistakes, thechips come they're way more, but
in the short term, the chips cango anyone's way and you gotta
put in the effort and it show uptime and time again.
Poker is almost a meditativething for me too.
I'm so in the moment and in thezone, it feels like time flies
when I'm playing poker, in alive game paying attention to
(49:29):
people's nuances and theirbehaviors and just watching.
And then I've also learned a lotabout life at the poker table
just having conversations withpeople about their careers or
what they do, and just the chitchat and the table talk of
hanging out with a bunch ofother humans.
It's a really neat environmentthat I really enjoy.
And I feel like poker is goingto be a part of my life as a
recreation, as in a seriousrecreational player for many
(49:50):
years to come.
Danu Poyner (49:51):
Amazing.
I'm so glad I asked about that.
I liked this phrase you use aswell about showing up, and I
hear that in your videos aswell.
It's about how kids are going toshow up in life.
Is that an important idea toyou?
erich_leidums (50:05):
Yeah.
I mean, for me showing up isrelated to getting in the ring
and doing and trying.
And again, that's like somethingGary V talks about.
If you're aimlessly unsure aboutwhat direction you want to go in
life, It's easy to sit there andscroll, especially like maybe
even in your early twenties oras a young adult or at any phase
(50:25):
in your life, I feel likethere's a lot of value that
comes from doing and justshowing up.
If you're doing a new task andcommitted to starting a business
or content creation, you have toshow up regularly to do that.
It's not even going to the gym,you got to show up three times a
week at least to get any ofthose results.
I equate that to, you know,teaching my kids how to ride a
bike.
(50:45):
We would do five minutes a dayfor learning how to peddle bike
for 12 days or 10 days.
And then they were off, theyfigured it out, right.
Because you just showed upconsistently.
It's the 10,000 hours thing.
Anything you show up forconsistently, you're going to
become more proficient at, andif you're not sure, it's your
thing, at least you're learningthat it, wasn't your thing by
(51:05):
showing up.
Danu Poyner (51:06):
You're doing the paramedicine stuff.
You going great guns with thecontent work.
What are you focusing on at themoment?
erich_leidums (51:14):
Personally, I'm doubling down on unschooling.
I'm really enjoying listening toother podcasts, talking about
unschooling and alternative waysof learning for families and
kids.
I want to, I think, learn alittle bit more about some of
the acadamia and even thepsychology and some of the
science, what some of theprofessionals are starting to
(51:36):
point at in terms of bestpractices for how people learn
and how kids learn.
It's no surprise that I thinkour schooling institutions of
today are going to be slowmovers to adjust, even when
there's significant evidencethat, Hey, you know, actually
people learn best not sittingdown for six hours a day.
I want to keep exploring andlearning a bit more about that.
(51:57):
And then also experimenting withtelling stories about our
unschooling journey in ourcontent.
So that's something that's onthe forefront of my mind.
Danu Poyner (52:07):
It's certainly the unschooling conversation that
has connected us.
I have all these conversationswith people about experiential
learning and schooling andalternative education, but those
conversations are often quitetheoretical and scholarly.
There's something about thephysicality of what you're doing
and just seeing it there andseeing your kids.
(52:27):
It just communicates all that ina much more direct and relatable
way.
erich_leidums (52:31):
Awesome.
Thanks for that.
Yeah.
Danu Poyner (52:33):
So that leads me into my last question, which is
what I ask everyone who comes onthe podcast.
If you could gift someone alife-changing learning
experience, what would it be andwhy?
erich_leidums (52:44):
It would be related to not being afraid to
follow your heart.
As cliche as that sounds, Ithink in a more concrete way,
it's directly related to notbeing afraid of what other
people will think of you.
That life lesson for me, handsdown has unlocked a power and my
(53:06):
gifts, it's connected me to myauthenticity and to not be
afraid to be me and followwhat's in my heart.
Danu Poyner (53:12):
That is a great answer.
When you were talking about thatyou didn't need grades, you
didn't need external validationfrom a teacher and the freeing
sense of that, it seems to bereally connected to this idea of
unschooling, cause grades seemto be about that weight and that
burden of external validationand commodifying the soul.
(53:35):
It's been a wonderfulconversation with you, Erich.
I'm so glad we had the chance tochat.
erich_leidums (53:39):
no, It's a pleasure.
This is a enjoyable conversationand I love hearing about what
you're up to with your platformand exploring curiosity.
I think it's really valuableand, yeah, I hope that we might
be able to connect or work onsomething together in the future
in some way, shape or form towith whatever uh, you build up.
Danu Poyner (53:56):
I feel that way too and I hope that will be the
case, whatever it turns out tobe.
Thank you so much for theconversation.
It's been great connecting withyou and all the best with the
coming winter.
I hope that gives you everythingthat you want it to with your
content creation.
I look forward to
erich_leidums (54:13):
Awesome.
Thanks Danu.
I had a moment when I was 17 or 18, like go to
school, work, retire, and die?
Like, That's it?! I didn't wantthat.
And I was set on this path of,oh, like it's probably going to
be a lot more fulfilling to workor live a lifestyle that you
want to be doing instead of justsacrificing yourself for a job
or subjecting yourself to a bossthat doesn't treat you well.
I didn't want to be unhappydoing what I did.
(00:22):
And so all of my jobs were wiredwith let's make sure we're
enjoying what we do.
Danu Poyner (00:29):
You're listening to these Still Curious Podcast with
me, Daniel Poyner.
My guest today is Eric Leidums,who is the content creator
behind That Mountain Life, wherehe documents his family's
outdoor adventures and parentingjourney in a small mountain town
in the interior of BritishColumbia, Canada.
Today's conversation is allabout risk, play and reward.
(00:52):
It's about celebrating effort aswell as outcome, learning
through experience and adventureand building confidence and
resilience over time to ride outthe inevitable bumps along the
way.
It's about showing up in theworld, building a fulfilling and
integrated lifestyle that alignswith your values and freeing
yourself from the need forexternal validation.
erich_leidums (01:14):
I stopped caring about grades.
Grades were dead to me.
Just didn't matter because Ididn't need or want that
external validation from ateacher.
And so if I wasn't into anassignment and it didn't feel
aligned with me, I didn't wantto do it.
And probably why I'm unschoolingmy kids now.
Right?
Danu Poyner (01:29):
Eric has been a go getter from the get, go
enterprising and with abackground in adventure tourism,
outdoor education, river guidingand leading youth on wilderness
trips, as well as working as aparamedic.
Now he's busy making videos fora living.
But for Eric, all the hustle isreally about creating a
lifestyle that's fun,interesting and fulfilling for
(01:49):
him and his family.
erich_leidums (01:50):
Mountain life is slower.
It's got movement built in as avalue we're surrounded by
mountains.
So not only do you have this aweand this awesomeness that's the
nature around us.
You can also play and interacton the mountains and with the
mountains.
It snows 20 centimeters and theshops are closed because the
shop owners and staff want to goski the powder.
(02:12):
It's this idea of working tolive and not living to work.
A lot of people are here for thelifestyle, not just to make a
ton of money and maybe have abig career.
Danu Poyner (02:21):
Eric's work and lifestyle is all about combining
parenting and adventure.
The content he creates throughthat mountain life explores
themes of conscious parenting,unschooling and pushing and
stretching our comfort zones insupportive ways.
erich_leidums (02:35):
one of the most rewarding things I feel like as
a mentor a coach is to bepresent at the birth of another
human, being in their flow stateor their edge, like at their
edge.
So the nudge is when a human isat their edge and maybe they
have a story in their head, andthey're saying I'm not sure I
can do this or I'm scared.
I find the nudge is to be thatsupportive voice.
Danu Poyner (02:57):
As usual, this is a conversation that goes on all
sorts of tangents while beingpacked full of surprising
substance throughout.
We talk about being an unplanneddad.
The business mechanics of beinga full-time content creator.
Why playing poker is a form ofmeditation.
And the one book Eric read inhigh school that forever changed
his life.
(03:17):
Enjoy it's Eric litems coming upafter the music on today's
episode of the still curiouspodcast.
(03:50):
Hi, Erich, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you?
erich_leidums (03:52):
I am great.
Thanks for having me here.
Danu Poyner (03:55):
So you're the content creator behind That
Mountain Life, where youdocument your family's outdoor
adventures and parenting journeyin a small mountain town in the
interior of British Columbia,Canada, your videos on YouTube
and Instagram cover outdooradventure, family, conscious
parenting, homeschooling, riskyplay, and small town, mountain
(04:15):
lifestyle among other things.
And, after about three and ahalf years, you're now a
full-time content creator andsocial media influencer
navigating the world of digitalmarketing with over 850,000
followers across all platforms.
What would you say is the mostimportant thing for someone to
understand about you and whatyou do?
erich_leidums (04:33):
Where I am today and creating content full time
is awesome.
It's creative.
That's something I'm reallygrateful for and it comes with a
lot of work, a lot of struggles,a lot of uncertainty.
I feel like it's easy to bescrolling on social media and
say, I want to do that or belike that.
It's a great position at the endand, it you know, the there's
pros and cons to it.
(04:54):
I've never worked harder to paythe bills this way, even though
I have a significant following,it doesn't just land on my lap.
Danu Poyner (05:02):
No, there's a lot of work that goes on behind the
scenes, I think.
Maybe let's talk about thatmountain life, the channel.
How would you describe what goeson there and who it's for?
erich_leidums (05:10):
Yeah, I just started documenting our outdoor
adventures.
It started in the winter,following my kids with the
camera, skiing down ski runs,and I wanted to learn how to
make videos.
And so I taught myself just withYouTube tutorials, how to start
vlogging.
The videos are for anybody thatenjoys the outdoors, anybody
that's a parent, used to be aparent of young kids, or maybe
(05:34):
might become a parent.
I feel like I have peoplewatching me from teenagers to
grandparents.
So, the content is wholesome.
Family centered.
A lot of outdoor activities isthe main theme, and there's
adventure and challenges that weovercome, and then also just a
lot of fun.
It's a lot of action-packed joy.
I feel like, at the end of theday, what I'm doing is sharing
(05:56):
my joy and love that I have ofthe mountains with my kids.
And then I just share that withthe rest of the world as well.
Danu Poyner (06:03):
I've seen your videos.
Wholesome is definitely the wordfor it.
I've seen some of the ones whereyou miked up your daughter going
down the slopes and soarticulate and confident and
fun.
It's really interesting just tosee that vibe.
What's the response been like?
erich_leidums (06:18):
The miked up videos of Attia, she's our
youngest and she's now four.
Those videos were when she was abig two.
So she was like two and threequarters that winter, before she
turned three and the internetloved her voice and just her
articulation and really helpedconnect with viewers in terms of
just, like there was this cuteyoung girl who is very competent
(06:42):
at skiing and, when she'scomfortable and in her flow
state, she babbles and talks andself monologues in a very
adorable way.
And that was the hook that grewmy following, or that was the
sort of the viral videos.
And, February 1st of 2020 or 21,but I had 3000 Instagram
(07:03):
followers and by the end ofMarch, two months later, we had
120 K.
So it just blew up over twomonths of these videos getting
spread.
Danu Poyner (07:10):
Yeah.
Wow! You've got a businessdiploma in adventure tourism,
and you've done ski patrol,river guiding and leading youth
on wilderness trips.
I understand it's that latterthat really lights you up.
Can you share what gets youexcited about witnessing young
people gain an appreciation forwild places?
erich_leidums (07:29):
Working as an outdoor educator is by far one
of the most enjoyableoccupations I had as a young
adult.
I think it's because I was ableto play myself while I was still
working.
There's something aboutstripping down life to more of
the basics.
There's a lot less excess whenyou're out on a multi-day canoe
trip or backpacking trip,trecking, whitewater rafting,
(07:51):
flatwater canoeing.
If you can pack up what you needfor 10 days or 20 days into a 30
liter dry bag or a smallbackpack, and that's all you
need.
And then you go out as acommunity, as a group, you are
this mobile community.
You're forced to face more ofthe basics of life.
I feel like that providesperspective for young people and
it instills confidence andbuilds resilience and people get
(08:15):
to learn a lot about themselveswhen they're in those
environments where you move awayfrom some of those creature
comforts that our society givesus all the time.
So I feel like there's realvalue there, and it's not a
suffer fest by any means, but Ifeel like it's a real
opportunity for youth to justgrow and learn a lot more about
themselves.
Danu Poyner (08:33):
Great answer.
I can feel the enthusiasm forthis radiating off you and as
someone who enjoys theircreature comforts a little too
much, perhaps, it's almostinspiring me to get out there.
I'm not sure if it's going toquite tip me over the edge,
cause I'm pretty set in my ways,but outdoor curious.
Let's put it that way.
You mentioned this phrase justthen as an outdoor educator.
One of the things I always do onthe podcast is ask people to
(08:55):
explain a term of art as if to a10 year old.
I'm wondering if you can explainwhat outdoor education is to a
10 year old.
erich_leidums (09:03):
I think I would say, outdoor education is about
going outside into nature toexperience that nature and
yourself in it.
You can learn about the plantsand the trees and have
experiences with wild animalsand that in itself is almost a
holistic experience and verymemorable at times.
(09:24):
And there's something veryserene and peaceful about being
in that environment.
And then you can also learnagain about yourself in that
more interpersonal, soft skillway, solving problems, you know,
the outdoor environment isnowhere near short of
opportunities and things tocause a problem or you know, an
(09:44):
obstacle in your way, whetherit's inclement weather or just a
tree you want to climb or arapid, you want to navigate down
a river and you want to do itsafely.
And.
I just realized I lost theten-year-old.
I started off with aten-year-old definition, but,
uh, kept going.
Danu Poyner (10:00):
Thank you for that.
I'd be really interested ifyou've got any examples you can
share from those trips aboutsome of those problems and
challenges that arise that areunplanned, I guess.
erich_leidums (10:10):
Yeah, like a really good, simple example
would be if somebody goes to bedin a tent, let's say you have a
couple of 13 year olds on acanoe trip.
And, as an instructor and as theleader, you explained to them
the importance of taking care oftheir stuff.
That's a value that's reallyimportant.
And maybe they go to bed onenight in a tent and they leave
their rain jacket on the rocksand the wind picks up at night
(10:34):
and all of a sudden they're nolonger with a rain jacket
because it got picked up andblown down the river and so what
do we do for the next six dayswhere, maybe the weather is
going to be friendly and theyget away with it.
Maybe it gets cool and rainy,and now you have participants
offering to share their rainjacket, to help out with this
person.
And I guarantee you that veryexperiential lesson with a real
(10:56):
consequential outcome ofchoosing to do it their way or
whatnot, it's just an experiencewhere they get to learn.
I think that's a good concreteexample of what experiential
education is.
You can maybe say it and stateit as an educator or a teacher
or instructor, but until youlive it and experience the
consequences and you want toobviously mitigate and not have
(11:20):
consequences be too dire anddrastic.
And I feel like that's one ofthe key roles as an outdoor
educator is to, make sure you'reobjectively assessing the risks
and that the group is stillwithin a reasonable tolerance of
staying safe.
Right.
Danu Poyner (11:32):
A really good explanation.
Thank you.
I had another guest on here talkabout experiential learning as
having an undeniable experience,which I think is a nice way of
capturing that kind ofconsequential thing you're
talking about.
On the education front, are youdoing anything to reflect on
what they take out of thoseexperiences?
Do you have a debrief or isthere an activity about what
(11:54):
they learned or how does thatwork?
erich_leidums (11:57):
Yeah.
Communication is an essentialsoft-skill interpersonal skill
to develop when you're out as ateam or a group navigating the
wilderness or an outdoorsetting.
And so, we're constantlydebriefing and even
front-loading parts of a day oran activity.
And then stepping back and notintervening when it's optimal
(12:18):
and then stepping in when it'snecessary and of course,
reflecting and debriefinganything that needs to happen.
Danu Poyner (12:24):
I'm interested in the way that your videos can
combine education and parentingand adventure.
And I'd love to talk a bit aboutyour philosophy of parenting and
education, I guess I hear yousay a fair bit.
Don't bubble wrap your kids.
What does that phrase mean toyou?
erich_leidums (12:41):
Well, yeah, that's an adage that I think I
even heard that phrase as a kida little bit here and there.
I never really gave much thoughtto it.
You know, the term helicopterparenting is a relatively new
term.
I think in the early twothousands, there's some academia
and stuff, talking aboutstudying social sciences of
different parenting techniquesand talking about risk and being
risk adverse.
(13:01):
You know, the road to hell canbe paved with the best of
intentions is a quote.
And it's very instinctual on onelevel to want to protect our
kids from the world's ills andharms and not just physically,
but also emotionally andpsychologically.
I quickly could see how, I don'tknow what it is.
It's just a cultural kind ofawareness I had, that if you
(13:24):
avoid risk all the time and tryto stay out of harm's way, then
you're not embracing the fullhuman experience of what it
means to be alive, which hasrisks built into it and even
harm and pain and loss andsuffering.
All that is part of our humanpsyches.
I'm a dad, I'm wired to keep mykids safe and provide for them
(13:46):
physically, emotionally,psychologically.
I want to provide like nothingelse.
But in that I realized that Ithink the best way to provide is
to not overbearingly protectthem too much because they need
to build resilience and skillsto be able to become atonomous
young adults who are going to beable to be confident, navigating
(14:09):
the pain and suffering andsadness that comes with life
when things don't go as planned.
Danu Poyner (14:13):
Is it significant that there was such a big
response to your videos at thetime around the start of the
pandemic?
Given what you're saying aboutrisk being built into life?
Or is that an overreach?
erich_leidums (14:26):
Yeah, I think that's just coincidence in terms
of that.
I feel like this is deeplyingrained in a lot of Western
culture.
I mean, If you're in poverty andin war torn countries and in
rural environments.
And I think in much of theworld, the west is almost an
exception in the level ofcomfort and excess that they
have.
And I feel like helicopterparenting is more prevalent in
(14:48):
America and Canada and maybesome of the other Commonwealth
type nations, even in Europe, inGermany though.
There's subtle cultural, nuanceddifferences where that's not as
prevalent.
My wife read a book about a momwho moved from the U S to
Germany, and she was justbaffled at how many kids were
walking to school and takingpublic transit blocks and blocks
(15:09):
away from home at a very youngage.
So there's this cultural, deeplyingrained thing that's happening
on a generational level in thewest.
when people watch the videos,they're like, oh, there's this
dad doing it this way.
That's not overprotecting hiskids.
And that kind of resonates andlands.
Danu Poyner (15:24):
I heard you say, kids thrive when empowered to
take risks, navigate challenges,and learn what they're capable
of.
You're about celebrating effort,not just the outcome and your
approach is to give kids as muchopportunity as possible to make
their own choices, even whenit's not exactly what you would
choose to do.
I'm curious how you came to thatphilosophy.
Was it part of your experiencegrowing up?
erich_leidums (15:46):
I was a nineties kid in a small town in Canada.
I'm in a mid-sized town.
And I, I was able to roam aroundand play freely in my
neighborhood, on a bike with myfriends in the neighbourhood.
Impromptu hockey games,exploring the forest, you know,
went to summer camps and therewas lots of free time and play.
And played hard and reallyenjoyed a lot of unstructured
(16:06):
play.
At the same time, I was alsohighly scheduled, went to school
and I got a lot of praise andattention and love from my
parents or adults when I didwell in school or sports or
extracurricular.
That achievement externalvalidation.
And so as an adult, I've donesome work to be aware of those
(16:29):
patterns and trends of puttingtoo much emphasis on the outcome
and the achievement.
And then I also really relatedto my upbringing of having space
to roam around and be free.
I'm very reflective.
And I like to think about thingsand ask questions as you do.
And I'm curious.
And so one way I describe how Iparent is I'm reflective.
I like to reflect on ourparenting strategies and
(16:50):
techniques.
And so when our young kids,every six months they grow and
change and then we're justalways reflecting on how can we
meet their needs the best, andmaybe what we did last year
isn't the best for them thisyear, because they're older and
we need to adapt.
And I'm just constantlyreflecting on what we could do
to meet our kids' needs.
Danu Poyner (17:08):
Was there ever a time that you played really hard
and had to meet some of theconsequences of your actions
that you learned from, like on atrip?
erich_leidums (17:17):
I had lots of big crashes on the bike.
I remember one time, I wasprobably 12, racing around the
block and we slipped out on somegravel on the pavement and I was
just covered in road rash andabbrasions and cuts from head to
toe.
There we were 11, 12 years oldin the neighborhood and I'm a
block away from home.
And I remember my mom stickingme in a bath full of hydrogen
peroxide and it's just stingedand burned.
(17:40):
And I mean, I have, I think,lots of minor to moderate
injuries as a kid, right.
When you're kind of going hardas a boy playing, but
fortunately nothing significant.
Danu Poyner (17:49):
I like this idea you have of nudging, pushing and
stretching someone's comfortzone in a supportive way.
What can you tell me about thatidea of nudging?
erich_leidums (17:59):
I'm really starting to love this concept.
I think as a parent, I often seemyself as a coach or a mentor,
uh, especially when there's anactivity involved or a task, and
maybe they are learning at theirown pace.
It's one of the most rewardingthings I feel like as a mentor a
coach is to be present at thebirth of another human, being in
(18:21):
their flow state or their edge,like at their edge.
So the nudge is when a human isat their edge and maybe they
have a story in their head, andthey're saying I'm not sure I
can do this or I'm scared.
I find the nudge is to be thatsupportive voice.
Our son, August the oldest, he'sactually quite reserved.
And on the timid side, when itcomes to outdoor adventure
sports, he doesn't have a highcompetitive drive.
(18:43):
He doesn't have that killerinstinct to want to be the best
and send himself off lifts orjumps.
I'm totally okay with thatbecause it's just one less thing
I have to worry about.
I know he's going to make aconservative decision.
And when I was teaching him howto ski, I was attuned to the
days where he wasn't open tobeing pushed and we would just
cruise and have fun.
(19:03):
So if we go skiing 10 days intwo weeks, which wasn't uncommon
or in maybe a 20 day period, wego skiing 10 times eight of them
we do what he is comfortable andwhat he knows, and we're singing
and dancing and playing andhaving fun.
And we're just enjoying it andthere's no push or nudge, but
then on day nine, maybe theconditions are good.
(19:24):
And he's just got a lot ofpractice over those previous
eight days.
And so day nine is the day wherehe's ready to get nudged to the
next thing.
And he's not even so sure thathe might be able to do it, but
it's coming from him, he'sshowing interest.
And then I can nudge and say,yeah, but I think you can do
this.
That's what the nudge is allabout to me.
Danu Poyner (19:43):
Yeah, that's really powerful.
A lot of the stories that peopletell me on this podcast about
moments that have really openedthem up and sent them down new
pathways have been about thosenudge moments, where they had
someone in a supportive andnurturing relationship who
really saw them and then justgave them a push at the right
moment.
(20:03):
That stuff really changes lives.
erich_leidums (20:05):
In the parenting realm, there's the old school,
or maybe the more abrasive, lessempathetic way of like, you
know, your eight year old childdoesn't know how to swim or your
10 year old and you throw themoff the dock and you say, figure
it out.
And then the over-protective waymight be you have a 15 year old,
and there's nothing wrong withnever having learned how to swim
in a vacuum, but, if you'regoing to always just stay
(20:27):
comfortable, as a parent, you'rejust going to comfort them in
that and that's all you do, thenthey're never going to dip their
toe in the water because you'venever nudged them to.
And so the nudge is the balancebetween those two strategies.
I don't want to throw my kidsoff the dock and force them to
be uncomfortable and scared.
Danu Poyner (20:45):
I liked the way you framed that as holding it in
balance between two extremes,but there's a lot that goes into
reading that balance.
I think.
How do you tell when someone'sready for it?
erich_leidums (20:55):
Yeah, I think it's attunement to their energy
and being aware of their skill.
So remind my son that I willnever suggest him to try
something that I know he's notready for.
Like with a child walking.
When they're first learning howto walk, they fall down so many
times, but like five days intotheir first steps, maybe they
took a break and they they don'twant to continue doing it.
(21:17):
10 days later, they're back intoit.
And it's just amazing howincrementally, especially young
kids under seven every week,every month is like this.
They're sponges and they'regrowing so fast.
I feel like it's just thisbalance of wanting to support
them and meet them at theircomfort zone and then paying
attention for when they'reready.
And a lot of the time it canjust come on their own and they
(21:39):
just do it experientiallywithout a nudge because they're
just growing and they're gainingtheir own confidence.
When they fall down and have alittle crash, usually there's a
psychological confidence drop,which makes sense.
And that's a good, healthybalance.
I fell trying this jump.
I now have road rash.
They're not going to try thatjump again the rest of that day
or the next week, maybe becausethey need to regain their
(22:01):
confidence.
So as somebody paying attentionto when are they ready for the
nudge?
I don't know.
I feel like a lot of what I do.
It's hard to describe becauseit's just this attunement and
presence and love that goes intoit.
Danu Poyner (22:13):
I'm interested in the story that connects the
outdoor education work you'redoing to the content creation
work you're doing now.
Content creator is not acategory that's existed for that
long.
Did you have a plan A when youwere little?
erich_leidums (22:27):
I was a straight A student in school, I was being
groomed to go to post-secondaryeducation.
Grades came easy to me.
I enjoyed school.
I read a book when I was 17called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
and I almost dropped out ofschool.
if you're familiar with ChrisMcCandless and the movie, Into
The Wild, or the book by JohnKrakauer.
He's a kid in the U S thatbasically is disenfranchised
(22:50):
with the establishment and justgoes off the deep end and moves
into Alaska, lives in a schoolbus.
He basically starved in the wildtrying to survive, like a modern
day, Henry David Thoreau, gonnamove into the woods and say, see
you later society.
I had a moment when I was 17 or18, like go to school, work,
retire, and die.
Like, That's it.
I didn't want that.
And I was set on this path of,oh, like it's probably going to
(23:11):
be a lot more fulfilling to workor live a lifestyle that you
want to be doing instead of justsacrificing yourself for a job
or subjecting yourself to a bossthat doesn't treat you well.
And all this stuff, I didn'twant to be unhappy doing what I
did.
So I loved skiing and I moved tothe mountains to start ski
patrolling and, That was after Iwas an educator and worked at
summer camps.
(23:32):
And so all of my jobs were wiredwith let's make sure we're
enjoying what we do.
Our first child August wasunplanned.
It was a woopsie.
That was where I was like, okay,maybe I'm going to need to up my
game here a little bit.
I'm not going to be able to justbe a raft guide and ski
patroller forever.
But with that being said, I wasreally good with money and being
frugal.
And I became a paramedic becauseit was the natural progression
(23:55):
after ski patrolling and doingfirst aid.
I love helping people andnavigating tough situations and
problem solving and being afirst responder has that.
Just thinking about work andreflecting on creating a living,
I had this drive to be anentrepreneur.
I thought about Instead of justexchanging my time for a
paycheck forever at a job, whatcould I do to become an
(24:17):
entrepreneur?
And so this idea of likestarting a side hustle, side
hustle culture on the internetis everywhere.
And I think there's a lot of BSand smoke screens for a lot of
it.
I ended up following GaryVaynerchuk.
He's not loved by everybody.
He's critiqued a little bit ofmaybe being too much hustle
culture because he's just a gogetter.
But he instilled this idea ofwhen it comes to social media
(24:38):
content creation, it's aboutdocumenting your authentic self
and your story, not creating.
And that is what made me realizeit's all they have to do.
Use a GoPro or my cell phone andjust record what happens.
And I can pull little snippetsfrom that to tell a story from
our skiing day or our mountainbiking adventure.
(25:01):
I read more of Gary's work, hisguide to growing on Instagram.
And it was just this idea ofinstead of watching Netflix at
night every night and relaxing,what could I do to invest in
myself to maybe learn some newskills that I could monetize as
a side business, along the way,which would help provide for my
family.
Again, I want to do it withsomething that I love doing and
(25:23):
that's fun and interesting.
Danu Poyner (25:24):
It sounds like that drive to be an entrepreneur was
sitting there for a while, andthen you were looking for
something to attach it to.
How did that moment ofrealization happen?
Was it a sudden flash or did itcreep up on you?
erich_leidums (25:37):
I didn't know.
So personal finance wasinteresting to me investing and
entrepreneurship is a lot aboutgenerating cashflow and solving
problems and providing value.
And then you monetize that andwhether it's a product or a
service or an artist, you areproviding value that people pay
for.
And I didn't know what businessI was gonna run or do.
(26:00):
I just always knew that it wassomething that I wanted to do
and is really rewarding.
Cause there's no ceiling therelike there is when you're an
employee.
It took me a couple months,maybe even, almost a year.
When we went viral on Instagramand then Tik Tok to come into it
and realize, okay, how can Imake money doing this now that
we have a big enough audience?
(26:22):
I was kind of paralyzed withwhat to do first because when
you run a business and you'remaking content, there's lots of
stuff to do behind the backend.
And I didn't know what toprioritize my time doing.
That held me up for a little bitand I kept getting in the ring
and doing stuff and tryingstuff, even hired a couple of
people to help me that didn'twork out.
Now.
I have two people, an amazingteam, and they're doing all the
(26:43):
right things, helping me and Ican just focus on content
creation a lot more.
So it's good.
Danu Poyner (26:48):
All of these ideas sound like very well-packaged
reflections that you've becomecomfortable with over a long
period of time.
But I want to go back to thatbook that you were talking about
when you were 17.
What happened?
Tell me, Tell me about this bookand where were you when you read
it?
It's very unusual to hear astory like that.
erich_leidums (27:06):
Grade 11 biology class and it wasn't even part of
the curriculum.
The teacher that assigned it,assigned it because the head of
the science department wouldassign this book when he was
teaching this grade biologyclass.
I read the book and just had somany aha moments that I think
philosophically and culturally,I hadn't really been introduced
to before.
It just struck a chord.
(27:27):
It just pulled at myheartstrings and I had to read a
two page assignment.
It probably took me 15 minutesto write my two pages.
I remember we had a classdiscussion about it the next
morning, Danu, and I thoughtthat like everybody else was
going to be on the same page.
It is an epiphany moment wheremy life was one thing before
that.
And afterwards it set me on apath to realize I can question
(27:51):
societal and social norms.
I can question institutions.
It helped me become curiousagain.
I felt alone.
I was in school.
I was on basketball team.
Nobody really wanted to talkabout it.
And he, you know, I'm obviouslypassionate about it.
Eventually I, you know, I gotsuspended because I'd sang a
gold finger song that was allabout anti schooling and factory
(28:12):
farming.
And I dropped an F-bomb at aschool cafeteria music thing,
got suspended.
So I was sort of like, rebellingand coming into my own and for a
good four or five years, I justwas pretty like
antiestablishmentary.
There was three or four teachersat my school that were like,
right on Eric.
You are on your path now and Ican see you.
And a lot of other teachers werelike, what happened to you?
(28:35):
You used to be such a goodstudent.
Danu Poyner (28:37):
What an incredible transformation.
It sounds like this teacher whoassigned that book outside the
curriculum, might've been a bitof a rebel as well.
What was his deal?
erich_leidums (28:46):
Yeah, Dr.
Carly.
He's on Vancouver island, Ithink full-time, I haven't been
in touch with him in a while,but, yeah, he was obviously I
think probably in his forties,maybe.
At that time as a teacher andwas a heck of a lot more calm
and centered and had more yearsunder his belt to reflect on all
of our society's issues and ourcultural issues.
He helped me afterwards and hadme over for afternoon tea and
(29:08):
stuff to like, just keepthinking and discussing stuff
after a little bit.
So that was good.
He was a bit of a mentor forsure, in that stage of my life.
Danu Poyner (29:17):
You said something really interesting.
You said it helped yourediscover your curiosity and
you were 17 and you were doingreally well in school.
What had happened to yourcuriosity?
You were doing well, but youweren't curious.
erich_leidums (29:32):
I knew the playbook.
I knew what was expected of mefrom my teachers and parents to
be successful.
And so it was a game, I couldpay attention in class, I kind
of was efficient at studying, anew homework can easy to me.
I was very efficient andstudious and absorbed, whatever.
And then I had to regurgitatethe test on paper and that was
(29:52):
easy to me for whatever reason.
It wasn't challenging.
I was a product of myenvironment and my socialization
and culture.
I wasn't me.
I mean, I was me and I was, youknow, I was still there, but I
wasn't fully me because I wasunconsciously being programmed
to fit the mold and do theplaybook because that was going
(30:13):
to be the most successful thing.
Danu Poyner (30:15):
So, what would you have done if you hadn't read
this book, do you think?
What would Eric be doing now?
erich_leidums (30:22):
I don't know because there's obviously no
shortage of authors and artistsand musicians and jesters and
other works that are poking atand critiquing the status quo.
Maybe it was alive in me in someway that would have come out in
other ways or whatnot.
And maybe I would have gone touniversity and gone down that
path and would have been like alot of post-grads who end up
(30:43):
with a degree and they're stillnot sure what they want to do
with themselves.
I embraced the uncertainty a lotearlier.
It's almost like I had mymidlife crisis at 17.
Danu Poyner (30:53):
I'm still picturing you rushing into class the day
afterwards full of enthusiasm.
And then the reaction to that.
What happened to your friendshipgroup and what did your family
make of this?
erich_leidums (31:04):
Yeah.
My parents were a bit worried.
My mom was worried.
I think I adopted the poor mething.
Like I felt really alone.
I felt disconnected from thefriend groups and people in my
whole life that I had built myidentity around.
I literally felt like I didn'twant to be a part of that
anymore.
It wasn't leading me to where Iauthentically was maybe destined
(31:27):
to go.
I mean, I didn't use thatlanguage back then, but, yeah,
I, I felt alone.
I definitely found new friendsthat I could philosophize with
and talk about stuff and havesome more intellectual
conversations about society andschool.
And I shifted gears.
I stopped caring about grades.
Grades were dead to me.
Just didn't matter because Ididn't need or want that
(31:48):
external validation from ateacher.
And so if I wasn't into anassignment and it didn't feel
aligned with me, I didn't wantto do it.
And that's probably why I'munschooling my kids now.
Right?
Danu Poyner (31:58):
yeah.
What does unschooling look likefor them?
erich_leidums (32:01):
Well, our kids are four, seven and nine.
And so, only in the last year orso do we feel like our oldest
might need a bit more or we canstructure our day to give him
more support to nourish hisinner spark and curiosity and
interest because under the ageof seven, if I was to pick a
(32:25):
arbitrary age cutoff, seven andunder.
Play play, play, play play iswhat we value, play is the work
of a child, and so much learningis happening through play.
So my wife started and founded aforest school, which is an
outdoor experiential type spacefor kids to be in a group.
It's mostly unstructured freeplay.
(32:46):
We love just giving space forour kids to play.
And unschooling is going toshift and change for us a little
bit as we get into the middleyears of our kids now.
August is going to be 10 nextyear and so it's going to shift
a little bit for him when it'snot gonna be the same as what it
has been so far.
Danu Poyner (33:02):
It strikes me how intentionally you're going about
this and again, thereflectiveness really comes
through.
You said that you were kind of aa unplanned dad and you were
pretty frank about that.
How did your life change as aresult of that and did that all
start immediately.
Tell me about that, if you don'tmind?
erich_leidums (33:20):
Yeah.
I mean, I've made up a YouTubevideo on it.
There was a mountain love storycontest.
And so I shared our story of,you know, conceiving a child and
not planning it.
The long and short of it is Ihad just gotten out of a
different relationship, move tothis mountain town Fernie, no
plans to commit to anotherrelationship anytime soon or in
(33:41):
the near term.
But I met Courtney and we had agreat time and had a connection,
enjoyed our winter together.
And then I was off galavantingaround, working down in the
states, doing some river tripwork.
And when we reconvene thatfollowing fall, we picked up
where we left off with ourattraction and connection, and
we conceived a child by it,unplanned and Courtney thought
(34:03):
she couldn't get pregnant.
That was incorrect and that'smore than okay.
It was obviously a huge pivotalmoment.
I was 25 years old when I foundout, 26 when I became a dad and
I was just 120% on board withwhatever Courtney wanted to do
with her decision for thatsituation.
(34:23):
For whatever reason, I have thisdeep acceptance of even if we
could no longer be together in arelationship, I was going to
show up for that kid and makesure I took responsibility for
my actions.
I don't know.
I just felt called to do that.
So I wasn't worried.
No matter what direction or whatcame of that situation.
I knew that everything wouldwork out and Courtney bless her
(34:44):
heart.
I love my partner so much.
She also operates from this deeptrust of like, everything can
work out, everything's going towork out.
So we both operate from thislens and we subconsciously
always come back to that anchorpoint, like everything's going
to work out.
And so that's the premise westarted our family
Danu Poyner (35:02):
Can I ask you a bit about paramedicine work?
That seems important.
What's it like being a firstresponder in a tight knit
community?
erich_leidums (35:11):
Yeah.
I think it's easier being aparamedic in a small town than a
big urban environment.
I'm in rural BC, a town of 5,000people.
There's back roads that arenamed after families that I have
helped their grandparents.
Their aging grandparents are theones that maybe they or their
grandparents, the roads arenamed after them.
So you get to see a lot of thesame faces.
(35:32):
I mean, We're not a tiny town oflike 500 people.
you know, There's people that wedon't know in this community.
But it was a very rewarding job.
It was flexible hours.
I could work as many or aslittle shifts as I wanted, and
that played a key role in ourlifestyle because we loved our
mountain town lifestyle morethan just the careers we were
(35:53):
doing and having.
And so paramedicine, the way theschedule worked out here was I
could work 30 days in a row or Icould work three days and have
10 off.
So I could do what I wanted andthat helped design the lifestyle
we wanted.
Danu Poyner (36:07):
So tell me about what you really like about that
lifestyle and the communitywhere you're living and the
landscape.
What can you share about it forsomeone who maybe hasn't
experienced that?
erich_leidums (36:16):
Mountain life is slower.
It's got movement built in as avalue for most people.
You can go for a walk along theriver and the trails or the
forest, or you can go trailrunning or mountain biking up
every mountain we're surroundedby mountains.
So not only do you have this aweand this awesomeness that's the
(36:37):
nature around us.
You can also play and interacton the mountains and with the
mountains.
You can just go for a 45 minutebike ride before you start work.
It snows 20 centimeters and theshops are closed because the
shop owners and staff want to goski the powder.
I've been to Costa Rica too,that pura vida.
It's this idea of working tolive and not living to work.
A lot of people are here for thelifestyle, not just to make a
(37:00):
ton of money and maybe have abig career.
Danu Poyner (37:03):
I love the facility you have for words, and how you
package these thoughts up andI'm just reflecting on what you
said before, play is the work ofa child and right at the start,
you said that you wanted to playwhile still working.
Is the content creation play, oris it a lot of work?
Sometimes what happens tocontent creators is there's a
lot of burnout there and I'mcurious about that.
erich_leidums (37:23):
Yeah.
I'm being mindful of that.
And I'm kind of catching myselfin a phase of checking in again
of, well, how much time do Ireally want to spend in an
office editing?
I'm also realizing like if I'mnot eating that well, and then I
don't sleep as well, I come intothe office and I'm not nearly as
efficient with my time as Icould be.
There's lots of stuff that as anentrepreneur, as a freelance,
(37:45):
creative working for myself, youknow, maybe I build in my
schedule that day is like, I gotthe kids for three hours in the
morning and Courtney is doingsomething that she needs to do
or wants to do.
And then I got my afternoon, Iget in the office and then
sometimes I'm not in my creativeflow, I don't feel like editing,
but that was my five hours whereI kinda need to.
And I feel like any creative outthere can relate to that.
(38:06):
I'm having some successmonetizing since April and the
moment that I can outsource someediting work.
I'm going to do that.
That makes sense for me.
But I'm excited winter's comingaround the corner and no time,
and I'm going to be not skipatrolling for the first time in
14 winters.
And I'm going to be a full-timeYouTuber.
Our winter ski content has themost eyeballs and I'm going to
(38:28):
triple down next winter.
And I want to be efficient withmy editing and also feed the
YouTube algorithm machine asmuch content as I can.
Danu Poyner (38:38):
Where do you see yourself going with it, but also
what does success look likealong the way?
Because it's not just theoutcome.
erich_leidums (38:43):
yeah, success for me is being able to sustain our
necessary living through this.
And so by that metric, I'msuccessful.
It's working.
It's only been three or fourmonths, so there's going to be
some uncertainty and maybemonths or stretches that are a
little bit leaner than othertimes.
(39:04):
I want to just continue refiningmy messages and our values and
be able to articulate and tellstories in a more effective way
that can really impact andinspire others.
I feel like much of what I'mdoing is telling a story,
telling my story, documenting astory.
(39:24):
And based on the feedback I'vegotten from some followers and
comments and DMS, there's a lotof people getting value from the
stories that I'm sharing andtelling.
That motivates me to keep going.
I just built a recent websitewith some help of the two people
that are helping me with mybusiness backend.
And I want my website and myYouTube channel to be a source
of family and parentinginspiration for all things
(39:47):
outdoor and maybe adventuretravel as well.
And so I'm really excited,where, you know, I feel like my
family is going to get a bunchof opportunities that we
probably never would've hadbefore, with even international
trips and all sorts ofadventures that could be really
cool.
Continue experimenting, weavingmore meaningful conversations
(40:07):
into my content aroundunschooling.
really poking that bear a bit,the modern day schooling
assumption of, if you don'tteach your kids top down,
they're not going to besuccessful.
I have all the faith in theworld that my children are going
to be well-rounded individualsthat know who they are and are
going to have skills and theability to learn whatever they
need to learn, to pursuewhatever they want to pursue.
(40:28):
And at the end of the day, Ifeel like every parent wants
that for their kids.
My kids are only gonna be youngand cute for so long and the
internet finds that adorable.
But I know that I have more of amessage and meaning that I want
to keep telling stories about.
Danu Poyner (40:43):
I'm coming back to how articulate your daughter
comes across in the videos whereyou have her miked up.
In one of them she asks if youcan carry her so she has more
energy for the turns on the skislope.
How conscious and how involvedis she with her role in the way
you're documenting your familyadventures?
erich_leidums (41:02):
Yeah.
I think I really started makingvideos when she was a baby.
And so she knows that daddymakes videos.
That's a part of our lifestyleand you know, the camera's not
in their face 24 7.
I'm mindful and I'm gratefulthat the camera is not on more
than it is off.
If that makes sense.
Yes.
I'm documenting a lot of ouroutings and days, but like at
(41:23):
the end of the day, there'sstory time and puzzle time and
we're coloring and we're bikingaround the neighborhood at
night.
And I don't bring a camera or aphone.
And, l love that I'm mindful ofthat.
The kids don't watch theInstagram short clips or the Tik
Toks.
They have no idea about views orlikes or followers.
What we tell them is daddy makesvideos and some people like
(41:43):
watching them or daddy makevideos, and this is his job.
And we're really grateful we getto do this together as a family.
And she knows no different.
Danu Poyner (41:53):
I wonder You said some people like the videos, do
you ever get any pushback ornegative responses from people
about the ideas?
What does that look like andwhere does it come from?
erich_leidums (42:03):
biggest pushback or the most common form of it is
just in terms of risk.
There are people out there thatdeem what I'm doing is
unacceptable and totallyinappropriate for the safety of
the child and that I'm possiblyeven doing it for the views.
And Knowing myself, the videosare truly documentative in
(42:23):
nature.
And, for example, our two yearold, all of our kids at two
skied off polar peak at FernieAlpine resort.
So it's the top of the mountain.
And I always did it in springand it's almost like a Rite of
passage in our family and I didit with August when I didn't
make videos.
I think I had Luca, maybe he wasthree and I filmed it but I was
already doing these like by somepeople's standards seem crazy
(42:44):
things or outrageous things.
It's just who we are.
I've learned that a lot ofpeople who are out there
creating and doing big things,or just following their hearts,
they're not doing it withoutruffling some feathers in some
way, shape or form.
I'm not actively looking to beconfrontational, but at the end,
you're never going to be able toplease everybody.
So when Attia went viral, herstuff got picked up on ESPN,
(43:06):
CNN, and Barstool sports onInstagram.
And when you started reading thecomments of the viral pages that
picked up my pages, I startedreading them and I feel like 90%
of them were overwhelminglypositive.
And then there was a good 10% oflike, this is ridiculous.
This is outrageous.
I can't believe people arecelebrating this, like this dad
(43:27):
should be in jail.
Like You get all sorts of stuff.
Danu Poyner (43:29):
I can see in your videos people who meet up with
you on the slopes and beinginspired by your content to go
outside and have their ownadventures.
What's the most surprising thingthat's come out of this for you
so far?
erich_leidums (43:45):
One of our income streams right now is to go on
trips and document ouradventures.
And so we'll partner with atourism organization,
predominantly, are the ones whohave a marketing budget and
they're going to spend it onprofessional videos on Facebook
ads on traditional marketing.
And then they're also going toallocate some of it to social
(44:06):
media, influencer marketing.
So we get to now go on tripswith restaurant food budgets.
The cocktails are included onthem if we want a lot of the
time.
We're kind of getting wined anddined and hosted as a family at
these resorts.
Our lifestyle is around doingthese adventurous, outdoor
things where it doesn't costthat much money because it's
(44:28):
integrated into our lifestyleand it's our value.
Whereas I feel like if you'reworking and you get vacation
weeks, you're working a careerin an urban environment and you
enjoy the mountains and mountainbiking or skiing, then you're
going to be the one to go andspend a week at a resort at a
hotel and buy the tickets.
We could even really afford totravel and go experience these
(44:50):
things that costs a lot of moneyto do.
So now with that mountain life,having a following, we get to go
experience a lot of cool thingsin our outdoor niche and in our
traveling interests that wenever would've had before.
Danu Poyner (45:05):
Was there a moment when you kind of kick back and
went, Hey, this is working?
erich_leidums (45:08):
It's really just recently, the last few months
where booking a few trips thatpaid and then landing a few new
sponsorship deals.
Cause in the world of socialmedia influencing, what's really
prevalent is, Hey, we'll giveyou our product for free and you
make a video and you use it asyou see fit.
And oftentimes there's noobligation, no set amount of
(45:29):
deliverables and content youhave to make.
It doesn't help me buy groceriesor pay the mortgage.
And I don't just want endlessamounts of stuff in our house.
So this spring and summer, we'vebeen successful at being able to
pay the mortgage and buygroceries and cover our costs as
a freelance creative, and it'sworking and I have a team of two
people, Katie and will, I'm sograteful.
(45:51):
They're a business to business,backend automation.
They help people become moreefficient with all their
business issues on the backend.
And they're SEO experts, andthey're really good at what they
do.
So they're helping me with thebackend and a good chunk of my
monthly cashflow is goingtowards them, but it's all going
to help me hopefully build amore sustainable website and
(46:12):
business and profit model wherewe can generate some income.
YouTube it's like writing abook.
You make a YouTube.
Nobody watches it.
But three years later, all of asudden people are watching
videos you made three years ago.
And now that video has made youa hundred dollars and I didn't
get paid at cent when I made it.
Right.
So it's it's pretty cool.
Danu Poyner (46:32):
I'm interested how you think about filling your cup
now, given that your lifestyleis also your work.
What do you do to fill your cup?
erich_leidums (46:41):
That's a really great question and something I'm
actually working on with my ownlife coach right now.
I've just had this realization,that much of what I do, even for
my own time and recreation, I'malways on, right?
Like I'm on.
I enjoy playing poker and that'snot a very relaxing game.
It's a very mentally intensegame.
(47:02):
Same with going mountain bikingor skiing.
You're just physically, alwaysdoing something.
And I've never had a problem infilling my own cup in terms of
doing some recreation activitiesto do what I want to do, but I'm
just realizing how I need to andwant to pay attention to being
off, just as a doer and as aprovider and as a dad.
(47:23):
You can tell by how I talk.
I'm a zestful ball of energy andwouldn't change that for the
world, but I need to make sureI'm able to turn off and I'm
working on that.
Danu Poyner (47:35):
You mentioned poker and I have to go on that tangent
for a moment.
What do you like about that?
erich_leidums (47:40):
The hardest game I've ever played.
It's a game that's taught me alot about myself because you can
do all the right things and losein the short term and have a
negative outcome.
Or you can do all the wrongthings and get rewarded in the
short term.
And that psychologically andemotionally is really
challenging.To be successful atpoker you have to be disciplined
(48:03):
and patient, and you have to doall the little things right for
a long enough time.
You need a big enough samplesize.
Everyone gets the same cards.
It's a strategy game.
In many ways.
I feel like it's a microcosm ofcapitalism.
You know, love it or hate it.
It's definitely has itsdownsides, but it's a game.
And it's played with adults whoare consenting to play this game
(48:23):
with money and the chips andmoney are, how you keep score.
And I've just really have beengravitated to poker because of
how challenging it is.
I used to play chess as a kid.
And when I found poker, I waslike, oh, this is even harder.
Emotionally and mentally, maybenot strategically wise, but
there's that emotional aspect.
Danu Poyner (48:40):
Do you take any of those lessons into other parts
of your life that you've learnedfrom poker?
erich_leidums (48:46):
I think I, did because I do, because I, in
philosophy in high school, Iremember I wrote a paper on the
similarities between poker andlife and risk for sure is in
that and also outcomes likeshowing up in the ring and doing
your best and then still losing.
Realizing that you can come backthe next day or take a break and
you still got to show up.
(49:06):
Again, poker's a game ofmistakes and, you know, he who
makes the least mistakes, thechips come they're way more, but
in the short term, the chips cango anyone's way and you gotta
put in the effort and it show uptime and time again.
Poker is almost a meditativething for me too.
I'm so in the moment and in thezone, it feels like time flies
when I'm playing poker, in alive game paying attention to
(49:29):
people's nuances and theirbehaviors and just watching.
And then I've also learned a lotabout life at the poker table
just having conversations withpeople about their careers or
what they do, and just the chitchat and the table talk of
hanging out with a bunch ofother humans.
It's a really neat environmentthat I really enjoy.
And I feel like poker is goingto be a part of my life as a
recreation, as in a seriousrecreational player for many
(49:50):
years to come.
Danu Poyner (49:51):
Amazing.
I'm so glad I asked about that.
I liked this phrase you use aswell about showing up, and I
hear that in your videos aswell.
It's about how kids are going toshow up in life.
Is that an important idea toyou?
erich_leidums (50:05):
Yeah.
I mean, for me showing up isrelated to getting in the ring
and doing and trying.
And again, that's like somethingGary V talks about.
If you're aimlessly unsure aboutwhat direction you want to go in
life, It's easy to sit there andscroll, especially like maybe
even in your early twenties oras a young adult or at any phase
(50:25):
in your life, I feel likethere's a lot of value that
comes from doing and justshowing up.
If you're doing a new task andcommitted to starting a business
or content creation, you have toshow up regularly to do that.
It's not even going to the gym,you got to show up three times a
week at least to get any ofthose results.
I equate that to, you know,teaching my kids how to ride a
bike.
(50:45):
We would do five minutes a dayfor learning how to peddle bike
for 12 days or 10 days.
And then they were off, theyfigured it out, right.
Because you just showed upconsistently.
It's the 10,000 hours thing.
Anything you show up forconsistently, you're going to
become more proficient at, andif you're not sure, it's your
thing, at least you're learningthat it, wasn't your thing by
(51:05):
showing up.
Danu Poyner (51:06):
You're doing the paramedicine stuff.
You going great guns with thecontent work.
What are you focusing on at themoment?
erich_leidums (51:14):
Personally, I'm doubling down on unschooling.
I'm really enjoying listening toother podcasts, talking about
unschooling and alternative waysof learning for families and
kids.
I want to, I think, learn alittle bit more about some of
the acadamia and even thepsychology and some of the
science, what some of theprofessionals are starting to
(51:36):
point at in terms of bestpractices for how people learn
and how kids learn.
It's no surprise that I thinkour schooling institutions of
today are going to be slowmovers to adjust, even when
there's significant evidencethat, Hey, you know, actually
people learn best not sittingdown for six hours a day.
I want to keep exploring andlearning a bit more about that.
(51:57):
And then also experimenting withtelling stories about our
unschooling journey in ourcontent.
So that's something that's onthe forefront of my mind.
Danu Poyner (52:07):
It's certainly the unschooling conversation that
has connected us.
I have all these conversationswith people about experiential
learning and schooling andalternative education, but those
conversations are often quitetheoretical and scholarly.
There's something about thephysicality of what you're doing
and just seeing it there andseeing your kids.
(52:27):
It just communicates all that ina much more direct and relatable
way.
erich_leidums (52:31):
Awesome.
Thanks for that.
Yeah.
Danu Poyner (52:33):
So that leads me into my last question, which is
what I ask everyone who comes onthe podcast.
If you could gift someone alife-changing learning
experience, what would it be andwhy?
erich_leidums (52:44):
It would be related to not being afraid to
follow your heart.
As cliche as that sounds, Ithink in a more concrete way,
it's directly related to notbeing afraid of what other
people will think of you.
That life lesson for me, handsdown has unlocked a power and my
(53:06):
gifts, it's connected me to myauthenticity and to not be
afraid to be me and followwhat's in my heart.
Danu Poyner (53:12):
That is a great answer.
When you were talking about thatyou didn't need grades, you
didn't need external validationfrom a teacher and the freeing
sense of that, it seems to bereally connected to this idea of
unschooling, cause grades seemto be about that weight and that
burden of external validationand commodifying the soul.
(53:35):
It's been a wonderfulconversation with you, Erich.
I'm so glad we had the chance tochat.
erich_leidums (53:39):
no, It's a pleasure.
This is a enjoyable conversationand I love hearing about what
you're up to with your platformand exploring curiosity.
I think it's really valuableand, yeah, I hope that we might
be able to connect or work onsomething together in the future
in some way, shape or form towith whatever uh, you build up.
Danu Poyner (53:56):
I feel that way too and I hope that will be the
case, whatever it turns out tobe.
Thank you so much for theconversation.
It's been great connecting withyou and all the best with the
coming winter.
I hope that gives you everythingthat you want it to with your
content creation.
I look forward to
erich_leidums (54:13):
Awesome.
Thanks Danu.
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