From classroom to corporate with TESOL teacher and instructional designer Diego Boada | S2E8 - Still Curious

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Diego Boada (00:00):
For me, the pandemic.

(00:01):
Really changed everything in mylife.
I always need to have a plan, afive to 10 year plan in my head,
it's like, okay, I'm going to dothis.
And then that, and then that,and then, I need to have a plan.
then the pandemic happened.
There was no plan everything.
was uncertain, I lost my job.
how am I going to pay for rentand how am I going to eat?
There were just too manychanges, cultural changes, like
everything happened at the sametime.
I had to really learn how todeal with uncertainty

Danu Poyner (00:27):
You're listening to the Still Curious Podcast with
me, Danu Poyner.
My guest today is Diego Boadawho is an educator, researcher
and instructional designer basedin Bogota, Colombia Diego
started out as an Englishteacher and has over 15 years
experience in K to 12 highereducation and adult education.

(00:48):
He is a Fulbright scholar with aPhD in learning design and
technology, has been aninstructional designer at an
online school for productmanagers, and is now an
e-learning consultant at theInter-American Development Bank.
In today's episode, we discussDiego's trajectory through the
many and varied parts of theeducation sector, and how the
timing of his move back from theUS to Colombia near the start of

(01:10):
the pandemic forced histransition from the classroom to
corporate environment

these are topics that you're not familiar.
You feel like, what am I doinghere?
how can I help?
But then I understood a lot ofpeople know the content, but not
a lot of people know how tocommunicate that and how to
design, meaningful learningexperiences.

We talk about universal design, reverse
culture shock and how teachingEnglish opens doors.
And we end up reflecting a loton the way teaching expertise is
valued in traditional educationversus instructional design and
ed tech, and what that means forteachers' freedom and
creativity.

For me, everything goes.
It's like, you're the doctorthat you look at the problem and
then you prescribe X or Ydepending on the situation.
And they just can't do that buttypically they don't have the
ability or the freedom to dothat because they're restricted
because of the format of.

We talk about how Diego is doing mentally and
emotionally at this point in hiscareer transition, as well as
how he fills his cup and findsstructure in uncertainty.

I'm grateful to be here and to be alive.
I don't know what's going tohappen tomorrow.
I can do a thousand things in aday, but if I don't get to
workout, I feel like I didn't doanything.
And that day I don't feel asaccomplished or productive.
It just becomes part of yourroutine or a habit.

Diego's experience makes him really well-placed to
see how the global educationlandscape is evolving, and I
really appreciated his insights.
Enjoy.
It's Diego Boada coming up afterthe music on today's episode of
the Still Curious Podcast.

(03:00):
hi Diego, how are you?
Welcome to the podcast?

hi, Danu.
Thanks for having me.
A little bit nervous, but I'mexcited to talk to you.

no reason to be nervous.
I've got so much to ask youabout, but first I have to
rattle off your impressive andfrankly, intimidating list of
accomplishments, and then we canget into it.
So, you're an educator,researcher and instructional
designer with over 15 yearsexperience in K to 12 higher
education and adult education.
You're also a Fulbright scholarwith a PhD in learning design

(03:29):
and technology.
And you've completed apost-doctoral fellowship in
pedagogy for culturally andlinguistically diverse students.
You've been working recently asan instructional designer at
product school, which is awell-respected one stop shop for
product management education.
And you're now an e-learningconsultant at the Inter-American
development bank.
It's an impressive list ofaccomplishments.

(03:49):
What would you say is the mostimportant thing for someone to
understand about what you do?

I feel like I've never left school, so I'm always
learning.
For example, like after my PhD Inever imagined that I would go
back to school, now I'm doing anMBA.
I think that that keeps thingsfun and interesting when you
keep learning.
In a way I still see myself asan educator.
At the core of what I do, Istill think of myself as an
English teacher.

well, that's really interesting.
And I like the phrase you'venever left school.
It sounds like you've reallytaken that lifelong learning
phrase and really run with it.
As you say, you've started outas an English teacher in
Colombia, teaching English tospeakers of other languages,
what was attractive about thatpath for young Diego?

When I was little, I wanted to become a medical
doctor.
I actually applied for medschool twice and didn't make it.
And then I thought to myself,what is something that I really
liked doing and something that Ienjoy and I've always liked
learning languages.
I have a natural ability forteaching.
So then, I applied for thatprogram and I got in first time.
It's been really crazy becauseit's something that I really

(04:51):
enjoy.
And for me, It gave me adifferent way to see the world.
In Spanish we speak in very longsentences and sometimes one
paragraph is just one singlesentence.
There is no, no periods.
And I think the same applies toFrench and all the romance
languages and in English,everything is very short,
concise.
It helped me to think moreclearly in a way, and it's open
opportunities like myscholarship, to go to the United

(05:13):
States, do my master's PhD, jobopportunities, all of that.
English has really opened doorsfor me.
And I like to share that with mystudents, so it's fun to get to
know people, also because youare working with a language.
So the content is, it's like,what did you do last weekend?
I feel like I really get toconnect with people and see them
grow in different ways.

(05:34):
And also the fact that we'retalking about also culture.
Teachers in general, we say thatwe're more than teachers,
because you teach math, whateverit is, but you're also teaching
culture and all of thesedifferent things, especially if
you are an English teacher.

That's really interesting.
I like what you say as wellabout being more than teachers
and especially with languageteaching, there is a lot of.
Being immersed in the cultureand sharing that and other
people we've had on the podcasthave talked a bit about that as
well, I'm curious if you canshare anything about Colombian
culture.
That might be interesting forpeople who are not familiar.

Something that sometimes people don't know is
that we don't have seasons.
We are on the equator and sobasically the same season all
year long.
The weather, it depends on thealtitude of the city.
We have the Andes and so we evenhave glaciers in Columbia,
because if it's really high,then there'll be a glacier.
So my city where I live rightnow, Bogotá, it's kind of cold,

(06:28):
but if you traveled two hours bycar, then you're in a very hot
place.
If you travel two hours up themountain, then it's very cold.
And so you get all types ofweather in Colombia.
I think that it has somecultural implications as well,
because, I've heard thesetheories before.
People would say in Europe orwhatever, a thousand years ago,
you would have to plan verycarefully and save in the

(06:48):
summer, so that way you can havefood and stuff to eat in the
winter.
And also the daylight isdifferent, sometimes it gets
darker very early, sometimes itdoesn't.
So that has a very huge impact.
I believe on culture becausehere we're more relaxed, maybe,
we didn't save as much.
We don't think about the futureas much because we can get
anything we want at anytimeduring the year.

Thanks for sharing that.
You became interested intechnology and education
together and, if I understandcorrectly, that's what led you
to subsequently go on and doyour master's and PhD looking at
learning design and technology.
What was it about technologythat made you go in that
direction?

Being a classroom teacher, I started using
technology and I would noticethat my students would have more
fun and they will learn better.
So I really wanted to learn moreabout technology.
So then I decided to pursue amaster's and then a PhD.
But then the more I learnedabout technology, the more
critical I became about it.
And I learned, after like, Eightyears, 10 years off of school, I

(07:50):
learned that technology does notmatter.
And there are many studies, forexample, that compare, like
students learn with iPads versusno iPad.
They compare like whateveryou're teaching with technology
versus without technology andall of these studies, they
typically have no significantdifferences at the end.
So this is a statisticalconcept, which means that

(08:10):
nothing really changed.
Students in one group versus theother one.
They didn't do any betterbecause it's not about the
technology is really about howyou use it when you use it, why?
And it has to make sensesometimes, I'd rather have
pencil and paper and have areally great lesson and not just
use very fancy analogy thatreally doesn't add any value.

(08:31):
Maybe sometimes communicationharder or right now, for
example, during the pandemic,sometimes we feel more isolated
with technology.
You have to be very carefulabout the way you use
technology.
Really ask yourself about thevalue.
Every time there's a newinvention, new iPad, whatever
there is.
Is like, oh, this new instrumenttool will revolutionize

(08:52):
education.
And then it's been like 50years, a hundred years.
And at the core, nothing hasreally changed much.

That's really interesting, the critical side
of technology, and I want to digmore into some of your
perspective on that, given whereyou sit but I understand that
universal design for learning issomething that's important to
you.
What can you tell me about that?

Right now what I do is that I create online courses
for people, right?
There are many different namesfor what I do.
Like instructional design isvery common in the US, in
Europe, I've heard like learningdesigner.
In the tech industry now theylike to use, learning experience
designer, and so there are manydifferent names, but basically
what we do is, we create thisonline experiences for people.

(09:36):
When you're designing things, itcan be challenging because
sometimes, when you're teachingsomething, you teach based on
the way you learned, and basedon the things that worked for
you.
So if you're a more visuallearner then you'll somehow use
that in the way you design,right?
If I learn this way, that's whatI'm going to use.
If I think that I need to repeatthis 10 times for me to
remember, then that's what I'mgoing to do when I I'm designing

(09:58):
a course for others.
But then as a designer, youcannot do that because then it's
not about you anymore.
It's about what's best forpeople and what is best for
everyone.
This idea of universal design,typically the picture you will
see is like a picture of stairsthat also has a ramp.
And so then, the stairs are goodand accessible for people that
want to run an exercise.

(10:18):
And maybe also for people thathave knee issues and maybe use a
walking stick or people in awheelchair.
It's not like one size fits allapproach, but it's accessible
and is good for everyone.
So when you're talking aboutlearning is like, how do you
make this, really universal.
Some of the things they'll sayis you need flexibility in terms
of the material, the media, youneed to have audio video on

(10:40):
different types.
Another thing is havingflexibility in terms of the
assessment, because typically,as educators, instructors, we
say, you're going to learn this.
And you're going to show me thatyou have learned by doing this
activity specifically, a quiz orwhatever, but is that the best
way?
The student should be able tochoose how they wanted to
demonstrate that they've learnedbased on their interests and

(11:00):
their needs.
Having that flexibility in theassessment, that's also
important.
And so there are some principleslike that, that they, discuss
universal design for learning onhow to make learning more
accessible to a generalaudience.

Thank you for explaining that.
That's really clear.
My naive question in responsegoes to a little bit, what you
said about the one size fits allapproach.
I can imagine that by trying tocater to everyone inclusively,
it might be frustrating fordifferent people.
How do you actually navigatethat creation of something that
is accessible to everyone whilestill being the best experience

(11:36):
for everyone individually intheir preferences.

Well, that's a hard question and I think we're still
trying to figure it out, but theidea on what research shows is
that when you're designing forminorities or whatever, then the
final outcome is better or isthe best thing for everyone.
For example, right now I see onTV, I am an English language
learner.
So I like to watch captions,sometimes I don't understand it
in words or accents, but nowthat is not exclusive to English

(12:01):
language learners.
A lot of my American friends,English friends, I went to their
homes and they watch TV withcaptions.
And I'm like, why, you know.
It's because maybe you designbased thinking about people
that.
are learning English, but maybeother people will enjoy that and
benefit maybe because at nightthat will not disturb their
partner.
For example, if they're watchingTV.
There are many differentreasons.
Instructional universal designfor learning can be fun for

(12:24):
everyone.
Also with technology, you cancustomize your experience.
We have adaptive learning, forexample.
And so based on your answers ona question or an activity, then
our system can suggest what'snext, based on your skill set on
your interests.
It allows for customization.
And sometimes if you're face toface that wouldn't be possible.

(12:44):
Like If you're a teacher with 50students or 2030 students in
your classroom, then you'regonna come up with a single path
or a single way for everystudent because you just, can't
not possible, but withtechnology that.
makes it a little bit moredoable.

Thank you for that.
Something.
I ask everyone who comes on thepodcast is to explain a key
technical term as if to a 10year old.
I'm curious if you can explaininstructional design or what's
the difference between all ofthose terms?
You mentioned instructionaldesign, learning, experience,
design, and being, say ateacher.

I love that.
And that's a great question.
Being able to explain thingsclearly, like, to a 10 year old,
sometimes it's not easy.
I'll do my best.
So instructional design is afield that started in the 1920
when the radio started, a lot ofpeople started learning or going
to school through the radio.
And the big boom ofinstructional design was during
world war two, because there wasa need to train people and

(13:37):
soldiers.
This was a problem that neededto be solved.
So they consulted withpsychologists and scientists in
different areas.
That was the boom ofinstructional design.
If people are in education,maybe they've heard the name
Gagné before and the nine eventsof instruction.
The core of what we do is uselearning theory to solve
problems.
These problems can beperformance based or they can be

(13:59):
instructional problem.
If you work at McDonalds and youneed to teach people how to make
burgers, and so somebody needsto train them.
That's the other thing,instructional designers, they do
not only work in schools anduniversities that work in the
industries, because companiesneed to train their employees.
Maybe you don't need a course onhow to make burgers that is six
months.
Not everything requires acourse.
It can be an infographic thatthey have available at their

(14:22):
work station that shows them howto make a burger in simple
steps.
When a company or institutionhas a problem, then they come to
us and then we look at theproblem, because sometimes
people don't know what they needand usually companies will come
to you, like, Hey, I mean, ofcourse on that because I need to
improve my sales, but then it's,okay, what is the problem?
Really?
So we look at the problem and dowe need training for that?

(14:43):
Do we not need training forthat?
Then instructional designers, wework with companies with the
governments, with the military,with schools, and then we solve
problems using pedagogy, usingeducation and learning theory
and that would be my shortexplanation what I do.

It occurs to me while you're talking that more
than teacher applies very muchto this space as well, because
you're taking on subject matterexpertise and listening to
client needs and reallyco-designing with them, learning
to solve problems.
If I understood you correctly.

Correct.
That's why I said at thebeginning, I still see myself as
a teacher because, my expertiseis on how to teach, how to get
people, to learn something, howto engage students, how to teach
online.
That's what I do.
That's what I bring to thetable.
If you hired me to create acourse on engineering or
something, like astronomy, Idon't know anything about that,
but then I know a lot about howto get that information to

(15:40):
students in a way that makessense to them, in a way they
understand it and they willremember that in a way that it's
meaningful.
That's why collaboration is soessential and it's fun because
then, when you were with adifferent person, then maybe
that person will bring aperspective that you haven't
considered yet, or has adifferent way to approach a
problem.

It seems instructional designer is pretty
much the sexy new role thateveryone in ed tech is aspiring
to.
Meanwhile, product management isa hot role in tech that everyone
wants as well.
I want to talk to you aboutproduct school, because here you
are doing instructional designfor product management.

I've learned a lot about product management and I
had no idea what that was a fewmonths ago.
I'm going to answer yourquestion in two different parts,
because the first one has to dowith instructional design and
everybody wants to do it now.
And then the other one has to dowith product management.
So the first thing is yes, Ithink instructional design is a
very hot topic right now.
I see that in my LinkedIn,everywhere that a lot of

(16:35):
teachers are looking to maybetransition out of the classroom
and then they're looking forroles in instructional design or
learning and development.
I'm excited in a way, but alsosad because these are great
educators that love what theydo, but because of their
problems with the system andbecause they're not very well
valued on paid, they get burntout and now they're looking for

(16:56):
other opportunities.
In my case, it was kinda weirdbecause I ended up doing this
masters and PhD in these area.
But I saw myself as a professorin academia, but then I'd been
another pandemic.
I lost my job.
Then I had to jump to theindustry in a way, cause I had
to make a living.
So it wasn't like, It wasn'tvery intentional my transition,
but I know that a lot of peopleand teachers are doing this and

(17:16):
there are support groups onLinkedIn where you can get
advice from other teachers onhow they transition, how to
create a portfolio to show topotential employers.
And I think that there is a lotof opportunity for that because
I saw this quote, I don't knowwho said, but it's something
like, The thing that is moreexpensive about training your
employees is not training".

(17:37):
That was the quote, because likeall of the industries, we're in
constant change right now forthe pandemic, things are
changing rapidly.
There are always new tools, newways to do things and companies
need people that know how toteach and people that can create
these courses and solve theseproblems for them.
And that has a huge impact onthe business and the return on
investment.
That's one thing you know aboutinstructional design, the other

(18:00):
thing that was new to me isproduct management.
A product manager is someone whooversees.
a digital products.
Some examples are like Facebook,Google, Uber, all of these
websites that have apps andmobile apps that people use to
access their services.
The product manager will look atthese apps, but there's more
than that because they need tounderstand how engineering

(18:22):
works.
But they also need to understandthe market.
They need to understand thestrategy behind it.
They need to prioritize thefeatures that they want to
release.
They collect a little data, so,okay.
People are not using thisfeature.
Because they don't see where itis or they don't find value.
They need to come up with astrategy to get people to use
that tool.
and They really have to have avery good perspective of looking

(18:44):
at everything, like thebusiness, the strategy, the
roadmap, the engineering part.
It's a really great role to lookat everything in perspective.
And at the end of the day, themission of the product manager
is to represent the customer orthe user so that you need to
advocate for their needs, fortheir pains and make sure that
they find value and that youoffer a solution that is good to

(19:04):
them because people are notlooking for new apps and
websites.
People are looking for asolution to a problem they have.
Your role as a manager is tounderstand their needs and in a
way, advocate for them, for the.
It's been really great to learnabout product management,
because it gives me a differentperspective on learning design.
When you create an online courseor online learning, we always

(19:27):
talk about, for example, studentcentered learning, you want
students to be at the center ofthe processes and these.
But then, sometimes it's kind ofboring, you will see pre
recorded lectures sometimes,professors looking for an hour,
two hours, and then has thestudent really understood of the
process.
I don't know, they check outafter 10 minutes of listening to
something.

(19:47):
So, product management is like,okay, we're talking about us as
a user now.
What is the user journey whenyou opened your app and you're
open your online course, what isthe first thing that you see?
How can I help you adopt thesenew features and how can help
you understand this because whenyou use a new app, you don't
know how to use it.
It has to be very intuitive,user friendly.
You can have prompts on thescreen to guide users.

(20:11):
And so they track even how youfeel.
If you feel frustrated at thebeginning, how to improve that.
They really think about theexperience of the user.
And so like Taking that intoeducation really works as well,
because then if you think thisstudent is logging in today's
learning management system, thisplatform, and they just listened
to two hours of this professortalking then it was maybe not

(20:31):
the best experience, right?

Yeah.
So, product school, they havecertificate courses and
workshops and networking andmentoring, eBooks, basically
everything you could want forlearning about product
management and either gettinginto that career or going
further with it.
I'm curious what some examplesof your work as an instructional
designer there have been, itsounds high pressure, designing,

(20:56):
learning materials for productmanagers who have a very
critical eye of what thatprocess is in the first place.

Before I answer that question, something that I
wanted to mention is that thereis also a huge growth for
product managers right now,because traditionally these
positions are for people inSilicon valley, like big tech
company, facebook and all ofthese companies, but right now,
like every major industry, everycompany needs to have a digital
product.
If you own a restaurant,whatever your business is, you

(21:24):
need to have an app.
You have to have a way forcustomers to connect with you.
For example, last weekend Iordered take out.
I order some food.
And so, you always know how touse it but you don't realize
what they're doing.
So there was the striker showingme like where the person was and
the different stages, okay, therestaurant is preparing your
meal and they send me emailssaying, Hey, your food is ready.

(21:45):
And please rate your experienceand it's very high tech, the
platform was really very clean,very easy to navigate.
I'm like, wow, they have areally good product manager
working in this company.
And so All of these companiesnow they have the need to
transition because right now,after the pandemic, that's the
way things are going.
I talked to the CEO ofellii.com.
They create online resources forteachers.

(22:06):
They were formerly known as ESLlibrary.
And then they started creatingPDFs and printable worksheets.
That was their business.
They still have those because alot of teachers want those.
They want to be able to print,but now they have to create
digital products on flashcardsand fully online lessons.
So now product management is notlonger something that happened
in Silicon valley, but it'ssomething that happens across
every industry that needs tohave a strong digital presence.

(22:30):
What do I do for productmanagers?
They are wonderful at what theydo, but they don't necessarily
have training in education orhow to teach people or how to
create a course.
That's where I come in.
I sit with them and we'll thinkabout, for example, one of the
things we did at Product Schoolwas that we created a skills
taxonomy because productmanagement is not a formal
field.
You don't go to school for thatnecessarily.

(22:52):
There isn't like a degree, amaster's and undergraduate
degree that prepares to do that.
Also this role looks verydifferent from company to
company.
In some companies, the productmanager, maybe it's more of
project manager, even some othercompanies, they do more
marketing, maybe some othercompanies, they do more,
engineering.
We started with, let's create askills taxonomy of what is it

(23:12):
that people need to do to becomea successful product manager.
And then we create a certificatefor people that are aspiring,
people that don't have a roleright now, and then they want to
become product manager.
So, what is it that they need tolearn?
Then?
I know the certification forcurrent product managers.
I've met people that theylearned on the job.
They don't have formal trainingin product management, but then

(23:34):
they were just thrown into thisfield.
I've learned some of thelanguage.
The personas are the people thatuse your product.
So they'll look up differentpersonas.
We create certifications forthem.
So that's one of the things Ido.
Another thing I do is I createda morning course for instructors
because they don't know how tonecessarily teach because that's
what they do.
And so it's, okay, what is itthat they need to learn in terms
of the pedagogy or the approachto guide a successful cohort or

(23:59):
to facilitate online learning.
We have this educationdepartment now that we take care
of all of those things.
And, we also partner with othercompanies to create micro
certifications.
And so right now I'm doing onefor a product led growth And so
I get to learn a lot by workingwith these people and designing
their courses.
It's like an added benefit ofbeing an instructional designer

(24:20):
because you're always learning.

absolutely.
That's like doing this podcast.
I learned so much from justtalking to people, doing random
things.
So that's great.
I want to come back to what youwere saying before about
teachers leaving the professionand maybe being interested in
going into instructional designand the kind of recognition in
business that we need people whoknow how to teach things.

(24:42):
There's seems to be.
A gap in recognition of valuethere.
Traditional teachers are veryunderpaid and overworked and not
always appreciated as aprofession.
But on the other side, in thisinstructional design profession,
it seems that the value of thatfunction is really
well-recognized and wellremunerated, have a perspective

(25:03):
on that from your own experienceand people you've seen moving
around?

Yeah, I would agree with you, that teachers are
attracted to these field becausethey feel more valued and also
you can, at the end of the day,you can close your computer and
then you can be home with yourkids, with your family.
Teachers, we don't do that.
There's always something thatyou need to grade to prepare, to
listen, plan to, take care of.
That's why it's becoming reallyattractive to many teachers but

(25:28):
that doesn't mean that it'seasy.
Some people said that there aretwo types of instructional
designers, the ones that work ineducation, like schools,
universities, that kind ofthing.
And then the other ones areworking in the industry, for
banks and car makers and forhealth companies.
Sometimes it's hard because theywant the teacher experience on
the expertise, but they alsowant someone that understands

(25:50):
the industry.
If you're working for carmakers, it's, okay, do you have
previous experience, do you knowwhat we do?
Sometimes it's a little bit hardto jump, but it's possible and
I've seen so many success casesof teachers that they put
together, their portfolios onthe examples of whether they can
do.
And then they're able to get afull-time position as
instructional designers.
For me, if I'm a good teacher,my students benefit from me and

(26:13):
my expertise, but it's only mystudents, 20 of them or 40
whatever, how many you have.
But then when you areinstructional designer or when
you work in ed tech, you're ableto scale that up to thousands,
if not millions of people.
If you design a course, we'regoing to have a huge impact on
the students where people at ourcompany and then, instructional
design really lets you have abigger reach.

(26:35):
So it's great because that'swhat you want to do as a
teacher.
Anyway.

Yeah, true.
That's why teachers do what theydo.
Do you think that gap in valuehas anything to do with the fact
that instructional design isabout solving problems and it's
practical and urgent andimmediate.
Whereas teachers at schools it'sdiffuse and everyone knows great
teachers are great, but itdoesn't really connect to

(27:00):
tangible outcomes straightaway.
It's a really interestingdistinction to me about how we
value teaching expertise.

What you said, I think it's true, but it doesn't
even depend on the teacher.
Sometimes as a teacher, you'rejust given a textbook, you're
given a syllabus or given thatthis is what you're teaching.
We have this exam at the end ofthe year.
Your students need to pass orour school won't get any
funding.
So there is something about thesystem that doesn't necessarily
help teachers to grow orflourish or be more flexible.

(27:30):
As a teacher, you have to followthe lead of your school
principal and whatever thegovernment says or the ministry
of education.
Instructional designers, You dowhatever, because it's about
solving a problem and, talkingabout this as a teacher, the
different learning theories, forexample, one is behavior is, um,
meaning that you learn throughrepetition.

(27:51):
There is cognitivism, and he'sall about what happens to your
brain and maybe coming up withstrategies that will help you
remember things more easily.
There is constructivism that isabout, building and co-creating
knowledge.
And so if you're learningEnglish is more about practicing
and using that in context.
If you use the language, thenthat's how you learn it instead
of just repeating sentences.

(28:12):
We have different schools ofthought.
And then as a teacher, I feltlike behaviorism it's not good
anymore.
You cannot use that in yourclassroom because nobody likes
repetition.
Isn't that.
But then maybe there was amisconception that I had as a
teacher, but right now I amlike, that's international
designers.
Everything goes becausesometimes repetition or
behavior, is going to be a goodthing, or depending on your

(28:34):
need.
If you have to teach something,someone had to do something
quickly and reliably, then mayberepetition is great.
And I've also worked withteachers that teach special
education.
They do a lot of behaviortraining to help kids stop
hitting themselves, and teachthem how to communicate and how
to do certain tasks.
For me, everything goes.
It's like, you're the doctorthat you look at the problem and

(28:57):
then you prescribe X or Ydepending on the situation.
And they just can't do that buttypically they don't have the
ability or the freedom to dothat because they're restricted
because of the format of.

It sounds like one of the big appeals of
instructional design as aprofession is that kind of
freedom and pragmatism to besituational and work out the
best response to the situationat hand, which is not a freedom
that many people have enjoyed inteaching for a while, perhaps.
That's really interesting.
Do you have any examples ofinstructional design work that

(29:32):
you've created that you're proudof or that surprised you how it
ended up compared to where itstarted?

Examples.
I've designed courses in manydifferent areas like nursing and
engineering and sociology andeducation and product
management.
And now my new position, I thinkyou'll be like courses on the
economy and things like that.
I wouldn't maybe think of aspecific project that is better
than the other one, but for me,it was a little bit difficult at

(29:59):
the beginning because these aretopics that you're not familiar.
You feel like, what am I doinghere?
how can I help?
But then I understood quicklythat he's not about knowing the
content because a lot of peopleknow the content, but not a lot
of people know how tocommunicate that and how to
design, meaningful learningexperiences.
That's something that I learned.
During the pandemic, I taught acourse for English teachers on

(30:20):
how to design an Englishteaching program.
This was a course that wassponsored by the us department
of state.
And so teachers had scholarshipsto take this course, American
embassies.
Because we had teachers from allover the world, we couldn't meet
on zoom or anything like that.
So we had to come up with otherways.
And so then we started?

(30:41):
making.
These interviews on YouTube.
so The idea of the project isthat we have a problem.
What about the problem orapproach?
Let's say, we don't havecomputers in our school, so we
cannot really teach ourstudents.
And then we invite experts onthese experts are academics and
researchers.
This expert are classroomteachers because they are the

(31:01):
ones that are in the classroomand then people from the
industry to talk about thisproblem.
And we do that in about 20minutes.
So this project is getting someattention.
I'm really proud of it because.
It solves a lot of issues.
One is, this is our professionalorganization for teachers, but
it is expensive to pay your feesand they have an annual
conference in the US every year.

(31:24):
So traveling to the us is veryexpensive.
This product is available foranyone for free any sound.
There is a way to connect withpeople around the world because
TESOL international association,that's the association that I'm
working with.
They have 44,000 members in morethan 150 countries.
Of course it's not easy to getto those people that engage

(31:45):
with.
Also they're very academic innature.
When you go to a conference,sometimes it's very good day mix
as a teacher, you stay throughit and you don't really know
what's going on because of thenumber, because of that.
So it's not using language thatis clear and accessible to a
practitioner, there's adisconnect.
They're evolving being, frommore traditional ways and
traditional conferences nowokay, now we need a podcast.

(32:07):
Now we need a I think onYouTube, we need to start using
social media.
and Universities are goingthrough this process again.
All universities that I knowthey have profiles on Tik TOK.
They have profiles on Instagram.
Things are switching andchanging rapidly.
I see education as somethingthat is changing, especially
after the pandemic.
I'm really hopeful about what'sto come here in terms of

(32:28):
education.

Speaking of the T-cell organization.
I understand you recently gotback from the annual TESOL
conference in Pittsburgh, whichis a huge conference with about
10,000 attendees.
I understand the vast majorityof people did attend that
conference remotely.
And so I'm wondering as someonewho went in person and as
someone who designs learningexperiences, what's your view on

(32:52):
these hybrid kinds of events andwhat works well and what
doesn't?

Yeah, That was a very good experience.
Very interesting.
Of course.
When you are an instructionaldesigner, nothing is good
enough.
You're always thinking aboutwhat to improve on and what you
could do better is say appliesto product managers.
If you're done, then you know,you're not good for this job.
You always have to reinventyourself and think about things
to improve.
For TESOL internationalassociation, their conferences,

(33:20):
the main event of the year.
There were 10,000 attendees.
And then, because of thepandemic, they were fully
online.
And now this was the first timethat the conference was hybrid
and there were a lot ofchallenges.
The conference went really well,but then there were some
challenges and mainly the way Isee it the main challenge is how
do we engage people that areonline and in-person at the same

(33:41):
time, because when it wasonline, I feel like it was
easier.
Everybody was in zoom, whereeverybody was in these shared
space.
But now it's difficult to do, tothink about both audiences, the
ones that are online, the onesthat are watching the recording,
the ones that are in person.
Sometimes they neglect one ofthose audiences.
And so they focus only on thepeople that are here present

(34:02):
because they can see them, butthey never get that somebody
else is online.
I think that is the mainchallenge.
During the conference I hostedthese coffee chats and now that
is relate to the YouTubeproject.
It was like we were on zoom, Ihad some slides or whatever, but
we projected zoom on the bigscreen in the other convention
center.
We had guests that were inperson and at least one guest

(34:23):
that was online.
And so that helped us to be moreaware.
you know, If you have, I guessthat is online, then you remind
yourself that there is somethingelse there, that people are
watching.
And It was a great way to getpeople to interact, like people
that are in line, because theyfelt included.
I also think.
Tools like Mentimeter, that'ssomething that people can use,
whether they're in person orremote.

(34:43):
They can join and react to thislight and ask questions and
participate and provide theiropinion.
My goal as the facilitator wasto really engage everyone in the
conversation.
For example, the statements, onestatement that I had for one of
the coffee chats was in 10years, every education company
will become an ed tech company.
Do you mostly agree or do youmostly disagree?

(35:05):
At the end, these people thatwere in person in a remote, they
could vote.
And then the guest panel, theexperts that were invited they
will discuss this, but theneverybody was participating, not
only the experts, but also theparticipant.
They could chime in and write inthe chart or let us know what
they feel until we could see thepresence of people that thought
one way versus the other way.
On the last day, everybody,every guest speaker had their

(35:29):
laptop on, because that way wecould capture their video and
then they could also see peopleat home.
And so, Logistically complicateda little bit, especially for a
big conference like this.

Yeah, absolutely.
Because the two main experiencesthat happen at hybrid things at
the moment is either it's anin-person event and as you say
that people online are forgottenabout in the corner and
excluded, or you've got a lot ofpeople in a room awkwardly
sitting, watching an onlinevideo.
It's interesting watching howeveryone navigating past that.

(36:00):
It sounds like you've hit upon anice formula there, you're
always saying that this thingsto improve.
So what would you improve aboutthat for next time?

well, I would say that, being more mindful of
people at home, just becausethey're the majority, but
another thing is that, TESOL isan academic organization.
So they're academic, on theconference, the style and
everything is very differentfrom, let's say, conferences in
Silicon valley.
Product school.
They host three conferences ayear.

(36:29):
For a while they were in person,they would have a conference for
product managers in SanFrancisco, New York, London.
Then they went to being online.
So right now they're doingonline, but this year, they're
going to host their first hybridconference in San Francisco.
Because I am, I intersectionbetween both things so I can see
universities and academicsduring their conference, and

(36:52):
then people in Silicon valleywearing jeans and t-shirts and
having DJs and having magicians.
The conference experience is sodifferent.
I think that in a way I can seeboth things coming together
there, learning from each other,because conferences in Silicon
valley can be fun, it's thatvibe of releasing the new
iPhone, it's that set up kind ofthing.
I want to reduce the gap betweenboth worlds, because at the end

(37:14):
of the day, a conference isabout communicating clearly and
sometimes they write greatarticles and they have great
ideas, but then those ideas arenot communicated to the people
that need them.
Instructional design is alsoabout learning how to
communicate.

Absolutely.
That's so interesting.
I want to ask you about your newrole because some people
listening to this will bethinking, wow, instructional
design and product management,the intersection that's.
the goal, but you're actuallyfinishing up that role and
moving on to being an E learningconsultant at the Inter-American
development bank.
Why are you making that movefirst?

(37:48):
And then what will it be about

That's a good question.
I am hooked with productmanagement.
I want to keep learning more andI told them maybe I'll come back
at some point and work with youin some of the capacity, because
it's been really fun and I'velearned so much and I really
enjoy everything that has to dowith product management.
I don't see myself as onebecause I am a learning
experience designer.
I am instructional designer, butthen it is helpful to have that

(38:12):
kind of background.
I did not want to lose my joband that's the honest truth
because it's remote because Ienjoy it.
It's a great company.
And also, remote work verydifferently.
Tech companies, they're veryfuture forward, we don't use
email, like everything is onslack.
We have a meeting on Fridays.
We go to all hands and it's 15minutes and the whole company

(38:35):
gets together and there is timefor everything.
So Every department head willgive an update and at the end we
have time for shutouts.
We use slack and, if you need arequest for marketing, then you
just post in marketing channelor, Hey, I need this.
Can you guys help me?
If you have a request for thewebsite, then you do that.
We don't have a lot of zoommeetings, you have flexibility

(38:55):
to work at anytime, fromanywhere in the world.
It was really fun.
And now I'm going back toanother role where it's in
person, you know, a bank, I'massuming that it's going to be
more hierarchical andtraditional.
Email is going to be everywherenow.
But I'm excited because of theopportunity and the reach.
This bank, they work withgovernment in, they have
international organization, theyhave 48 countries that are

(39:17):
members and the goal is toimprove the lives of people in
Latin America and the Caribbean.
I know when my role is on paper,but then you will not know for
sure until you are actuallydoing the work.
So we'll see, I start next week,so wish me luck.
But then, I'm going to be in aposition where I can.
Not only this people, butmillions of people in America,
thinking about strategies oncourses on this and that, and

(39:39):
how to improve e-learning andbeing an advisor to governments.
That excites me.
So I'm really committed to themission, because it's going back
to the teacher metaphor, ateacher wants to help people at
the very end.
Here I'm going to be in aposition where I can help,
potentially lots of people.
That makes me excited for itbecause her program management,
it is also a huge impact, but ina different way,

Thank you for that.
That really resonates with meand the teacher in you wants to
have impact, and that's reallywhat it comes down to.
I really curious to ask youabout the way that the pandemic
has maybe changed yourperspective and priorities.
It's come up quite a bit in thisconversation, and you mentioned.
Initially it, wasn't your choiceto move into remote work.

(40:22):
And you found yourself in asituation where you had to find
other work, but here you aretaking on this incredible
opportunity that wouldn't havecome up.
Otherwise.
Have you reflected at all on thepandemic and the way it's
changed, the way you look atthings.

Yeah.
that's a great question becausefor me, the pandemic.
Really changed everything in mylife.
I talked to people about thistoo, and sometimes people, they
say, oh, I was really happybecause I could spend time with
my family.
I know a little working moms,they could be at home with their
kids.
And of course I was challenging.
I dunno how they do meetings andwork and cook and everything at

(40:55):
the same time.
But then maybe that gave themthe opportunity to be closer to
their family and see in a wayhow much they were missing on
before.
For a lot of people.
I feel like he was a very goodexperience.
And then, it was easy orwhatever, but for me, it was
really hard at a professionaland personal level.
At a personal level, I didn'tknow that I was anxious before

(41:15):
about the future.
I think too much about thefuture.
I always need to have a plan, afive to 10 year plan in my head,
it's like, okay, I'm going to dothis.
And then that, and then that,and then, I need to have a plan.
Then during the pandemic or thebeginning, there was no plan
everything.
was uncertain, I lost my job.
how am I going to pay for rentand how am I going to eat?
I had to really learn how todeal With with uncertainty and

(41:36):
ambiguity.
So that was different.
At a professional level.
I had been in the US for sevenyears, so I'd moved back to
Columbia and then the pandemichappened.
I was dealing with reversecultural shock because that's
actually real.
There were just too manychanges, cultural changes, like
everything happened at the sametime.
At the beginning in Columbia,the pandemic, the measures were

(41:57):
really extreme.
You couldn't leave your home atall, only once per week.
And so it was like enough, likean apocalypse in a way, and not
knowing everybody's going to dieand you see people dying around
you.
That really affected me.
After two years, I'm doingbetter and now, I'm okay with
not having a plan.
And be more flexible, and I'mworking towards that, but my new

(42:17):
position, it's a three-yearposition because consultants at
his bank, they renew theircontracts.
You have to apply to be a fulltime person or this or that.
Someone told me, Hey, thatsounds like a good opportunity.
It sounds like certainty or youknow, that it's three years, but
before the peninsula would belike, that's not enough because
what's going to happen afterthree years.
I need to know now, I need tohave a blend.

(42:38):
I'm still struggling with that alittle bit, but now I want to
believe, I want to think thatI'm more flexible with how I
approach life and challengesbecause everything is in
constant change, whether youlike it or not.
And sometimes we feelcomfortable with what's known,
we don't like change people.
Don't like change.
Cause you don't know you don'tlike the unknown.

had everything been going to plan before the
pandemic.

Mostly.
Yes, I highlight, I'm thirtythree I'm 33.
I had in my head, we know beforeI'm 30, I need to do this.
There's this there's this.
I was checking boxes like thisthere's, this one of them is I
wanted to jump out of a planewith a parachute and I did that.
And so I had certain things thatI wanted to do because of the
kind of person I am.
But now I'm like, I'm just gonnarun the flow.

(43:21):
I'm grateful to be here and tobe alive.
I don't know what's going tohappen tomorrow.

That is a big change?
I had one of those lists aswell, about what I needed to do
by the time I turned 30, butalmost none of it happened.
I'm impressed that you managedto tick off your things.
So Something I always ask peopleon the podcast is about whether
they're on plan A or some otherletter of the alphabet, it
sounds like you're one of themore Plan A people I've spoken
to.

(43:44):
You've always been in theeducation space.
You always wanted to do that.
And you've been that where itgoes.
Is that a fair.

Maybe, I never imagine doing what I'm doing
today.
I know what I want to do, but Idon't know exactly.
I just start something and thenthere's an opportunity for
something else.
Or I jump to that opportunitybecause I need to take it.
It's been like a progression ina way.
I've been lucky because as yousaid, for some people, they want
one thing and you know, that isnot what they get.
There's so many factors andthings that you cannot control.

(44:14):
I think in a way I've been luckythat I've been able to build on
previous work or whatever.
But still, if you ask me and Ihate this question sometimes in
interviews, it's like, what doyou see yourself in five years?
I'm like, I have no idea.
Before I would be like, okay, infive years, I'm going to be
doing business.
It's not as like I have an idea.

Yeah.
Who knows?
I don't know what I'm doing infive weeks, to be honest.
You mentioned reverse culturalshock.
Can you recall a moment when yourealized, oh, I'm having reverse
cultural shock and what washappening then?

I don't know how to answer the question politely
because I don't want to sayanything bad about Columbia, but
something that was shocking tome is that coming from the UAS
on the universities, everythingis up for discussion and this
has to do with culture really.
You know, like I taught a courseon intercultural communication
was the name of the course.
There are some different waysthat people may share different

(45:02):
cultures.
One of them is, how you interactwith your boss at work.
In some cultures, your boss islike your friend, but in some
other cultures, there is a veryhierarchical position there.
You're not allowed to evenquestion when your boss says,
you just need to do it'sunaccepted because it's your
boss.
That was a little bit difficultfor me at the very beginning,
because I, I was coming from avery open setting where

(45:24):
everything have for discussion.
If you need something to just goand get it, if you need to talk
to this person, you go and doit.
But then here, I come to auniversity and then there was a
lot of structure.
That was challenging.
Something that happens indeveloping countries is this
idea of, I think that word isnepotism when you get a position
because you have the rightcontext of our friends, and not

(45:46):
necessarily because you havethis skillset for that.
That is a really bad thing to dobecause there's about four, the
company, or the business thatyou have, because you're not
getting access to the basetalent out there.
I saw a little bit of that.
That was weird for me.
I love Columbia.
I'm from here and I love mycountry, but I know that there
are things that we can improve.
We have so many differentregions and things in Columbia

(46:09):
within the same country and asis true for every country.
And so The way this cultureworks in a specific city is
different from a different cityor a different region within the
same country.
And so That's why I don't wantto generalize.

Yeah, that's very fair.
Culture can mean many thingsabout the way expectations,
match reality.
I don't know if you've seen theculture map, framework.
Is that one that you've comeacross before?
That was one of the things thatgave me some concepts and
vocabulary to think about thosethings with that's really
useful.

That one, I don't think I've heard before, but,
what is Hofstede's model andsome other ones that they have,
like nine different elements orfactors.
And they measure that and youcan actually go and look at
specific country and see howthey measure on those aspect on
that.
Intercultural communication, butthat actually come from
business.
The people doing this research,one of them worked for IBM, the

(46:58):
tech company.
They had businesses and officesin a hundred countries.
When a company is that big, howdo you navigate that?
Working with people from thedifferent cultures and different
countries is not easy.
They actually did the researchand some of the ratios we is the
ratio that we use today forculturing Daryl.
But he's actually coming fromthe business perspective.

On that notice, you mentioned that you were doing an
MBA.
Not everyone a teacherbackground and teacher approach
to the world has an MBA or goesin that direction.
What made you decide take thatpath?

I guess two reasons.
One is because I started workingin the edtech world and the
edtech industry.
I felt like I needed tounderstand more about how our
company works, because, we don'tknow that, sometimes school
doesn't teach you things thatare necessary, like how to do
taxes, how to invest money, howto buy a house, how to take care
of your mental health.

(47:50):
So business is one thing that Ineed to know about.
When I work with teachers,sometimes I show them, oh, we
can do this cool thing aboutinstructional design.
We have this model or thiswhatever.
Sometimes teachers tell me like,oh, that's common sense.
That's something that I knew orthat I've done, by maybe I
wasn't aware of that specificway or model or I didn't put it
into words like that.
I wasn't aware of that.

(48:11):
In business is the same, onceyou're doing business and you
let's say you have a startupcompany or whatever, maybe you
learn from others, then you knowhow to do it.
But then once you have thetheory and the framework
everything makes more sense.
I get to understand maybe someof the decisions.
Before this job, I know the it'sa company and sometimes I didn't
know, like nothing makes senseto me.
Why are they always changing andpivoting and changing the

(48:33):
product?
And it's just stick with onething and just go with it.
Startup companies always changeit and they have to reevaluate
their needs.
Now I understand that.
It's okay.
And Another thing when I workedwith people in this industry, I
have a bit of understanding ofwhat they do and where they want
to grow.
So I am able to help them in abetter way.
And I've learned a lot aboutdifferent things in these MBA
program.

(48:53):
It has been really fun.
I met you there, so, you know.
great things happen.

That's how we know each other.

Full disclosure.

Yeah, exactly.

so number one, and number two, The second reason is
that I really liked the learningdesign and the learning
experience, because that's whatI do.
And so like, I don't wanna goback to school necessarily, who
wants to go back to school?
Then, I saw the platform andthese people and, I think the
CEO of this university was theCEO of Rosetta stone before.
Rosetta stone was a very popularplatform to learn languages

(49:24):
similar to Duolingo.
All of these companies actuallycoming from the English language
world, I know Duolingo, they,one of the sponsors of national
association, they developedgreat technology and great
platforms to learn.
They're very user friendly.
You swipe to the right you swipeto the left.
They're very interactive.
They have points of gamificationyou have this and that you have
reminders, challenges.
really great.

(49:45):
And so now, in our MBA, I feellike it's taking that
technology.
And then they brought that intobusiness.
The way we learn is a swipe tothe right.
You swipe to the left.
There is no prerecordedlectures.
We have student associations, wehave over the things to make it
engaging.
The exams are open book andeverything is based on the
context.
On Saturday I went to thelibrary to study and I was with

(50:07):
a friend.
And so my friend is doing a BAin business administration.
I knew it was just formulas,formulas, formulas, and
lectures, long lectures.
And the exam was really hard.
Sometimes he would fail theexams and I show him what I was
doing.
I'm just going throughscenarios.
Okay, this person wants tocreate a company.
So the first thing they need todo is this, what question do you
think he needs to ask hisstakeholders?

(50:29):
So a, B, C, D.
So as you interact, and so itwalks you through the situation
and what you need to actually doin real life and not necessarily
the theory and the formulas andthe boring lectures.
I've really enjoyed theexperience and I wanted to learn
how they're doing it.
It was like my inception momentin a way, because I'm going
through the lens of our learningdesigner.
What can I learn based on that?

(50:50):
Not necessarily the content, buton the way they designed the
experience.

I guess that's an answer to my next question,
which is how do you like tolearn and what are some of the
best learning experiences you'vehad personally, I have to echo
your experience that doingQuantic is 50% of the reason for
that for me was also to just putmyself through the experience of
a really cool well-designedprogram.
It certainly has lived up tothat.

(51:15):
Is that your example Quantic orhow do you like to learn?

Yeah, I think Quantico is a great example.
But If I wanted to answer thequestion in more general terms,
I would say, I like to learn bydoing, and I think that probably
works for most people, becauselet's say teaching, I went to
school to be a teacher, but thenwhen I did my practicum, during
my last year of school, I had noidea what to do in the
classroom.
How do you get these kids tobehave and sit down and do what

(51:40):
you're supposed to do, butthey're supposed to do, I always
say that the real influencersare teachers.
I know these kids that getfamous on social media because
not everyone can influence 20,30, 40 kids to do something.
you know?
And so I'm I learned by doingthings.
Even the MBA I'm learning someof the concepts, but I'm sure
like if I had to manage acompany, I would be like, I

(52:01):
don't know what I'm doing.
That's why he's great to sharewith people, like professional
development.
I learned a lot from all thepeople.
For example, a mentor teacherthat would shared strategies
with me and coach me, that kindof modern coaching and learning
by doing.
I work with higher education, Iknow that they're having a real
hard time right now withenrollment next students.
Sometimes they don't want toanymore.

(52:21):
Some people have talked aboutthe decline of higher education
because right now having adegree, doesn't mean anything
anymore.
You spend thousands of dollarsor whatever currency you have,
sometimes you have loans andthen students go to school, they
finished school and they didn'thave any practical skills.
They get a job.
They end up being a server at arestaurant, which is such a

(52:44):
great job.
Let me go look a little money,but then it's like,

they did their degree.

Exactly.
So, so, Universities, are goingthrough a transition period and
we're thinking in a way whatthey're supposed to do and how
to do it.
I personally learned about thisuniversity in San Francisco,
it's called Minerva university.
I really like it because, like anewish university and it's
online.
But they have cohorts and thenthey travel around the world and

(53:08):
they go to seven differentcities.
The students, they really learnhow to work technology, they
know how to have a very strongonline presence.
They create startup companies,they know how to use LinkedIn.
They really know how to movethemselves in this digital
world.
They have 1% admission rate andthe education system, I don't

(53:29):
know a lot about it, but it'snot the traditional thing.
It's more about challenges andit's just wonderful.
At least on paper, what I'veseen and what I've heard about
this.
And universities, I see there isa little a transformation
happening because of the needsof their students.
education is becoming tooexpensive and not necessarily
what it used to be in terms ofthe value that people give to a
degree.

Exactly.
And as we've both said, a coupleof times in this conversation,
the user experience, if you wantto call it that as, not always,
appealing enough to go back to,

I just want it to add one thing.
And the other thing is that,because now I'm in the industry,
I can see how having a degree,like in my case may be, yes, it
opened new doors and maybe Iwouldn't be where I am if I
hadn't gotten my PhD and all ofthat.
But a lot of my coworkers, maybethey didn't go to school or they
only have an undergrad or amaster's or the most, just

(54:21):
because industries don'tnecessarily value that they
don't value degrees, they valueexperience.
And some of the companies likein Silicon valley, for example,
they don't even ask for a CVanymore or education, they give
you a challenge.
Okay, we're looking forengineers, programmers, coders.
Here's a challenge.
Show me what you can do.
And then based on that, we mayinvite you to a second round of

(54:42):
and no CV is required.

Yeah, it is fascinating the way this is
going.
You're quite an all-rounder anda doer.
You work across manyconstituencies, like you say,
language learning, K to 12 adulteducation, universities tech all
over the place.
You must have a reallyinteresting perspective on how
this educational landscape isevolving.

(55:06):
do you see as where things aregoing and what might happen?

I feel like this is a very good time for innovation
to happen?
Something that you said, youmade me realize, when, the way
you said it is that I'm reallyat many different intersections?
Which is something that I wasn'tlooking for, but now in a way I
am in the intersection betweeninstructional design and product
management, and then give me alot of perspective, it's fun now
I'm working with TESOL which isa n academic conference and then

(55:32):
conferences in Silicon valleythat are very different.
And maybe they don't need to bethat different.
In the future, my prediction isthat we hopefully will be able
to bring some of these fieldstogether in a way that is
helpful for students anduniversities.
And maybe bring a little bitmore of edtech and product
management to universities.
My supervisor, for example,right now my boss, she was a

(55:52):
product manager at a universitythat is online.
And so I can see thoseintersections really working
well together because.
they can really benefit fromeach other's experience and what
they do.

Yeah.
It really strikes me that thatplace, where you sit at the
intersection of so many thingsis a huge asset, to you and also
to the people and projects thatyou work on, because it gives
you such a perspective alsobecause you are someone clearly
whose instinct is to use thatknowledge and that understanding
to build bridges and to try andmake all those worlds connect

(56:26):
and bring the best of them toeach other, which I think is a
really powerful thing.
Given all of that.
Who do you see yourself asserving primarily?

I would say education.
in general.
Because for me, education hasbeen everything really.
I've been like a nerd in someways, not any more, I guess,
more when I was like in, in,high school and K-12 education.
But for me, education has beenreally everything.
Like It's helped me to likesocial mobility, like upwards
mobility.
I've been able to move up, tohelp my family to travel, to

(56:57):
realize my dreams.
Now that I'm learning aboutbusiness and whatever, and this
and that, I know that technologyand education are the things.
That have the most impact interms of helping, let's say a
developing country to be moresuccessful or just helping
society.
And, and Sometimes, during thepandemic, I talked to people
about what was going on on theirroles.
For example, during thepandemic, what were the roles

(57:19):
that were necessary for peopleto access?
And some other jobs that peoplehave, today's in the case of an
apocalypse, maybe you're notthat needed, but I think
teachers are one of the peoplethat are very important, no
matter what.
We need them, no matter what.
And, There is a reason for that.
And so, I do like education, Ibelieve in education as a way to

(57:39):
have more social mobility to,like I said, and also like
social justice and just improvethe quality of life for people.
And so I would say that is.

that's a nice answer.
I think anyone who had kids athome during the lockdowns and
things would certainly agreewith the importance of having
teachers as

Exactly.
They didn't know what to do withher kids anymore.

exactly.
So is there a learning problemthat you're particularly focused
on or interested in solving atthe moment?

I am working on this YouTube projects.
And so this idea is evolving butI guess the problem is how to
communicate professionaldevelopment to teachers.
How do we engage members thatare, spread around the globe and
how to bring teachers andacademics online, because
sometimes, like TESOL forexample has 500,000 followers

(58:35):
and social media, but thenacademics and researchers,
they're not at that level yet.
They're still very much like oldschool and maybe not necessarily
wanting to jump into thisdigital world.
And so I guess facilitating thatfor academics and old school
teachers and old schoolresearchers can be a challenge.
I guess that's something thatI'm thinking about.

Excellent.
That's a good problem to beworking on, I think, and a chewy
one for sure.
clearly got a lot on and you abusy person doing many things.
How do you like to fill your cupoutside of work?

I like to go to the gym.
I like to exercise and that'ssomething that I learned.
I've always tried to be healthyand whatever, but then in the
UAS.
To school.
There wasn't a lot of thingsthat I could do outside school
also because I was aninternational student and I
don't have family here.
whatever.
So like I went to the gym,that's my escape, I guess.
Under the pandemic, we couldn'teven at the beginning, leave our

(59:32):
homes, do exercise or anything.
I felt like I wasn't the sameperson anymore because there was
something about exercise andthat really helps your brain and
makes you feel happy andaccomplished.
I can do a thousand things in aday, but if I don't get to
workout, I feel like I didn't doanything.
And that day I don't feel asaccomplished or productive.
It just becomes part of yourroutine or a habit.
I liked that and I also like toconnect with people in person,

(59:54):
these days most of my work isonline and remote.
So when I get to see someone inreal life is like extremely
excited.

Danu Poyner (01:00:01):
yeah.
True.
Thank you.
Definitely, the gym seems to bedoing something for you.
So I keep that up for sure.
One thing I ask everyone on thepodcast is if you could gift
someone a life-changing learningexperience, what would it be and
why?

Diego Boada (01:00:15):
That question, I love it.
Going back to me being anEnglish teacher, working at
growth, differing culturescountries, that has really
helped me get a betterunderstanding and perspective on
problems on people and realizethat maybe we're not that
different.
A life-changing experience forsomeone, what would it be?
I would say, I would want togive people the ability to see
the world from a differentperspective from the other.

(01:00:38):
We just know what we know, andwe didn't know what we didn't
know.
Working with people acrosscultures I realized that we're
not that different.
We are human beings, and sothere's something about that.
It doesn't matter what languageyou speak, what you do, what,
you know, but then getting tounderstand each other's
perspective, it really helps yousee the world in a different
perspective.
I don't know if it will beempathy or just the power of
seeing the world through someoneelse's eyes.

That goes back to what you were saying right at
the start about being andEnglish language teacher and how
it was as much about culture andcultural exchange as language.
Does that resonate with.

Yeah, that's why I say it.

Yeah.

a teacher.

That's nice.
There's a kind of arc all theway through those things.
Diego's been a great pleasurespeaking to you today.
I think you might be a loss tothe medical profession, but
you're certainly a great game tomany aspects of education.
I'm certainly very glad thatyou're there doing what you're
doing and I look forward tofollowing your next steps and
seeing what comes from it.

Thanks again, Danu for the invitation.
And I hope that you podcast willcontinue to grow and reach many
people because it's reallyinteresting.
And you are a really great hostand you came up with really
great questions on you made merealize things that I hadn't
necessarily thought before.
That's really great.
So I'm learning from you aswell, like how to be a great
host that had to put together agreat podcast with great

(01:01:53):
technology.
So thanks Danu.

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From classroom to corporate with TESOL teacher and instructional designer Diego Boada | S2E8

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}From classroom to corporate with TESOL teacher and instructional designer Diego Boada | S2E8