Christopher hosts and produces the internationally-awarded "Life as A.." podcast, helping people find professional career ideas and business pathways by exploring jobs from around the world. We discuss the interplay between career and identity and the pursuit of purpose-driven work.
Christopher's story in brief
- Christopher didn’t have a Plan A. He was a high-achiever who had the grades, but not the roadmap for his future.
- Studying sociology without a clear direction, he simultaneously worked in Canadian Customs and Immigration, where he gained an early appreciation for how our jobs can shape who we are and how we see the world.
- His quest for clarity led him to Japan to teach English, a temporary plan that turned into 20-plus-year adventure including teaching, consulting, and co-founding a marketing company in Tokyo.
- It wasn’t just a career shift; it was a life transformation. Christopher realised his professional purpose was deeply tied to entrepreneurship, creativity, and a desire for variety and novelty in his work.
- Christopher’s podcast, "Life as A..," is his way of shining a light on the myriad of career paths out there. It's about giving people a real taste of the options they have, helping them find their own spark in the professional world.
Conversation Themes
- Navigating career uncertainty
- Curiosity, exploration, and enthusiasm as career catalysts
- The interplay of career and identity
- What it means to find purpose and fulfilment
Links and Resources
Full Show Notes
Visit the Grokkist podcast hub for a full digest of this episode including highlights and links to stuff we discussed: https://grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast/s4e2-christopher-schoenwald
Recorded 23 October 2023
Website: grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast | Email: podcast@grokk.ist | Socials: @grokkist
Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christopher Schoenwald (00:00):
That's what purpose is to me, I think
(00:01):
this sense of purpose you'reintrinsically motiv ated to do
and also involves elements ofcuriosity, a willingness to
learn, not.
being told, you have to studythis, you need this knowledge.
Like you want to explore it.
You, you really just wanna knowas much as you can about it.
A general sense of enthusiasmtowards what you're doing.
When you have those moments ofstruggle, if you have this
(00:22):
purpose within your life, itgives you that extra little
something to dig down a littlebit further and to find your way
out of these problems that arebeing presented to you.
that's a good way of knowing ifyou have this purpose within
your life.
And I think the opposite istrue, I mean, if you don't have
that natural inclination towardslearning more about what you're
involved in or you're notintrinsically motivated by it
(00:44):
all.
Maybe that's a sign, we all havedays where it feels like, oh no,
this isn't right.
But if this is like every singleday for six months for a year or
something, that might be a signfor you.
Danu Poyner (01:00):
You're listening to the still curious podcast with
me, Daniel pointer, the showwhere I meet people who insist
on relating to the world withcuriosity and care and talk to
them about the red thread thatruns through their life story.
And which ultimately empowersthem to flourish as their
unrepeatable selves.
The voice.
He just heard belongs to myguest today.
(01:20):
Christopher Sean Wald, host andproducer of the life as a
podcast.
And internationally awardedpodcast intently focused on
helping youth and mid careerprofessionals.
Find professional career ideas.
And all business pathways byexploring and on earthing, the
details of jobs from around theworld.
(01:41):
Christopher's guests include MITprofessors, world food program
officers, skydivers, venturecapitalists, famed musicians,
eco minded entrepreneurs, andNetflix reality stars.
All of whom have plenty to offerto those looking for
occupational knowledge,insights, and advice for those
presently engaged in trying tofind career planning.
(02:02):
Clarity and inspiration.
I've been listening toChristopher's life as a podcast
for a while now.
And one of the things I likeabout it is how he focuses not
on the career itself, but ratherthe relationship that someone
has to their career.
You get to understand the shapeof a career through the people
in it.
And you also get to understandthe shape of a person by the
(02:24):
way, they relate to their chosenprofession.
Christopher is a thoughtful andcurious interviewer.
Who's interested in the waywork, shapes our lives and what
it means to find purposedirection and personal
fulfillment through professionalactivity.
And like many people, both of usspeak to Christopher's own
professional direction was notsomething he started off with in
(02:47):
any clear sense.
But rather something he hasgrown into.
Christopher Schoenwald (02:51):
I didn't have a plan A was a good
student.
I was motivated.
I, I did my work.
got great, good grades.
I was valedictorian in my, mygraduating class.
I think for, for others theywould say like, oh, you're
destined for success, orwhatever you do is gonna turn to
gold.
But in my mind, at that time, Ijust did not know what I wanted.
I really didn't.
And it was driving me nuts.
I Friends or, or classmates,they knew, or at least,
(03:13):
seemingly they knew what theywanted to do.
I just didn't have that.
I was so undecided and there wasso much angst and frustration
and a whole myriad of emotionsthat were just swirling around
constantly.
Danu Poyner (03:26):
After mulling over his options.
Christopher decided to pursue adegree in sociology, hoping that
a career direction would leapout at him along the way.
It didn't.
Meanwhile though he worked forCanadian customs and immigration
during his studies.
Stamping passports, interviewingarrivals and even dabbling with
(03:46):
some aspects of law enforcement.
This was the way Christopherfirst gained an appreciation for
the way work can shape aperson's worldview.
If the work you do isrepetitive.
After a while, you can lose yourspark.
And if you're only about havingcertain kinds of interactions
with certain kinds of people,well, that can lead you to be
less open-minded quicker tojudge and harder to budge.
(04:09):
This wasn't the kind of futureChristopher saw for himself.
So instead, still seekingclarity and also looking to pay
off his student loans.
He moved to Japan to teachEnglish.
It was supposed to be for ayear, but over 20 years later,
he's still there.
He started a business in Japan,focused on teaching English and
consulting, helping companiesand individuals improve their
(04:31):
global skills.
Later he moved to Tokyo andco-founded a marketing and
advertising company called brandpoint.
And this venture allowed him toexplore on a larger scale in a
global city.
Further developing his interestin nonlinear thought and
innovation.
Through these experiences,Christopher had realized that
his professional purpose wastied to entrepreneurship,
(04:54):
creativity, and a desire forinherent variety and novelty in
his work.
You can really hear howimportant all of this is when he
talks about why he likes doinghis podcast.
Christopher Schoenwald (05:07):
It's endless Exploration is what it
is for me.
I'm tapping into worlds that Iwould never get to know, get to
understand, and I remember whenI was considering what I wanted.
At that point, I knew I wasdriven by this notion of
curiosity.
I wanted a neat opportunity toexplore these worlds while
still.
You know, never really leavingleaving my home, right?
(05:29):
Like I'm stepping into theirworld.
If I can construct it in such away and ask the right kind of
questions, I can be immersingmyself into their world, even
just for an hour for 45 minutes.
And how exhilarating would thatbe?
And
Danu Poyner (05:41):
Through his podcast, Christopher hopes to
contribute to a broaderunderstanding of various
professions.
There are more career optionsthan ever, but how many
opportunities do people reallyhave to know what those options
are and what they involve fromthe people who are involved in
them?
He's now over 100 episodes inand aiming to expand the reach
(06:03):
of his podcast by collaboratingwith educators to guide and
influence young people in theircareer choices.
So, how does he describe hisprofession today?
Christopher Schoenwald (06:13):
In the simplest terms, I'm just like a
host, right?
I a host of this program orlike, but like if you're, I was
gonna dig into a little bitfurther maybe, a guide of sorts,
a career sherpa if I really wantto be creative here.
Danu Poyner (06:25):
I really liked the Korea ship, that metaphor
because one Christopher istraversing the same terrain over
and over again with his guests.
Each journey across that sameterrain is different and
special.
Because of the uniquerelationship and characteristics
of the person and the professionhe is taking the journey with.
We will find out more aboutChristopher's journey and what
(06:47):
he's learned along the way aboutpersonal and professional
fulfillment.
On the other side of the musicon today's episode of the still
curious podcast.
(07:22):
Hi, Christopher.
Welcome to the podcast.
How are you?
Christopher Schoenwald (07:25):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Really excited for this.
Danu Poyner (07:28):
So let's get into it.
in your words, you host andproduce'Life as a...', an
internationally awarded podcastintently focused on helping
youth and mid-careerprofessionals find professional
career ideas and or businesspathways by exploring and
unearthing the details of jobsfrom around the world.
And some of your episodes havefeatured an M I T Professor,
(07:51):
world Food Program Officer,skydiver, Venture Capitalist,
famed musician, eco mindedentrepreneur, or a Netflix
reality star, all of whom haveplenty to offer to those looking
for occupational knowledge,insights, and advice for those
presently engaged in trying tofind career planning, clarity,
and inspiration.
(08:12):
So that's a lot.
what would you say is the mostimportant thing for someone to
understand about'life as a...'
Christopher Schoenwald (08:19):
Yeah, great question.
I really like that.
I think it's, it's a resourcereally for people that maybe
have some angst or uncertaintyabout what they want, what they
wanna do, getting back to thatword of purpose, what they're
looking for within their life.
And I think, part of what thisprogram represents to me isn't
just the career aspect of it.
You're learning about differentjobs, the roles, the
(08:42):
responsibilities, the nuts andbolts of what people do, what
they're devoting their livestowards.
But also too, there's this wholelife and living element that's
attached to it.
You know, so what does it meanto be a veterinarian?
What does it mean to be a socialengineer?
Like, what kind of impact doesthat have on somebody's life?
When you take on theseresponsibilities of the job
itself, your world changes andultimately your world views are
(09:05):
gonna shift around a little bit,just based on the people that
you're consistently interactingwith, the types of things that
you're involved with, the typesof information that you're keyed
in on.
All of this has spillovereffects into the personal side
of things.
So I think having a good handleon both the job duties
themselves, as well as what someof these other elements consist
(09:26):
of is critical.
Danu Poyner (09:28):
One of the things I like about your show is how it
focuses not on the careeritself, but rather the
relationship that someone has totheir career.
You get to understand the shapeof a career by the way it gets
lived out by someone.
And you also get to understandthe shape of a person, by the
way, they live out their work.
I'm Just wondering how much yougave thought to all of that when
(09:50):
coming up with the show.
Christopher Schoenwald (09:51):
That was definitely part of the reason
for creating it in the firstplace, I really wanted to
include that element into itall.
Almost always, I'm trying tobuild in at least a question or
two that relates back to theperson's world, you know,
related to their work, you know,what kind of impact it's had on
their life.
How it's shifted their views oncertain things, how they feel
(10:13):
about profession, how they feelabout themselves and their place
within their profession.
I, wanted to find out frompeople, what kind of impact
these jobs had.
It's been a couple years, almosta couple years, nearly a hundred
episodes.
And I can tell you, these thingsdo match up as far as the impact
that the career has on theperson and the things I was just
(10:33):
speaking of, the rub off oftellthings do match up as far as
world, how their worldview shiftand change because of the work
that they do.
Danu Poyner (10:43):
It might be useful for people who aren't familiar
with your show.
If you want to take a moment tojust step through how the
different sections work and, andwhat you do cover in the course
of a typical interview.
Christopher Schoenwald (10:53):
Sure.
Yeah.
Off the top I'm introducing theguests, their professional
history.
oftentimes this is informationthat they're supplying over,
across to me.
You know, the prthese thingsonalbios, it might be on a website,
it might be a conference bio,and it kind of lightly
introduces some of theirexperiences, what done in their
career, some of theireducational backgrounds of the
highlights.
And then I have this segment,called Coloring Wikipedia, and
(11:16):
it's a segment that I takeeither the title of their career
or something related to theircareer, like the topic or the
area of study or whatever itmight be.
And I just take this drydefinition from Wikipedia and I
read it off for them, And Iinvite them to comment on it,
how accurate this definition is,what's missing, what could be
(11:36):
added, or what elements of thatdefinition are spot on.
And I let the guests kind oftake it from there.
It also recognizes the fact thateach individual is gonna put
their own individual stamp onthe work that they do as well.
And then from there, I get intoa day in the life where we break
down what that person's doing,what takes their time, you know,
(11:57):
what types of responsibilitiesthey have on a daily basis,
weekly, monthly.
And then from there I transitioninto a q and a discovery.
Now, once we get through those,I do transition into this water
cooler story segment, and it'san opportunity for the guest to
share a story, and this is alsodriving at the point of how it's
impacted that person's life.
Danu Poyner (12:17):
Yeah..
Oh, I'm curious to, to learnmore about your sense of
professional purpose and yourmotivation and ambition.
But did Young Christopher have aplan A?
Christopher Schoenwald (12:28):
Yeah, nice question.
No, I think that was the bigproblem for me is, coming out of
high school, I, was a goodstudent.
I was motivated.
I, I did my work.
I got great, well, very goodgrades.
I was valedictorian in my, mygraduating class.
I think for, for others theywould say like, oh, you're
destined for success, orwhatever you do is gonna turn to
gold.
But in my mind, at that time, Ijust did not know what I wanted.
(12:51):
I really didn't.
And it was driving me nuts.
Friends or, or classmates, theyknew, or at least, seemingly
they knew what they wanted todo.
You know, this is what their,their, their goal was.
This is the ki kind of careerthat they were after.
And for me, I just didn't havethat.
I was so undecided and there wasso much angst and frustration
and a whole myriad of emotionsthat were just swirling around
(13:12):
constantly.
So, no, I I didn't have an ideaand I was remember thinking of
like, well, maybe this or maybethat, and I would consider these
different careers and, and, andtrying to decide, you know, an
area of study for university wasa nightmare.
I thought for a little while,maybe in natural sciences and
and then ultimately landed on,you know, sociology as because
of the, the broad nature of whatthat study offered now is
(13:36):
hoping, hoping, hoping, hopingthat I would find something
within there, you know, maybethere was some course, maybe it
was a criminology course ormaybe it was something, you
know, social welfare issues.
Maybe it was academia itself.
Maybe something that was goingto really like, just catch me
within that degree.
But yeah, I, I didn't have aplan A and as you've kind of
(13:59):
probably gathered at this point,our like graduating.
I still didn't have that plan A,so yeah, that, that, that was a
big, it was a big portion of mylife that was just not clicking
in the way that I'd envisionedor wanted it to.
Danu Poyner (14:13):
It's interesting to be in that situation of being
very aware that you're kind ofgonna be okay on some basic
level no matter what you do, andthere's an overwhelming array of
options.
And you're quite motivated thatyou want to do something, but,
but, but, but what and why?
Uh, and so you try some stuff.
The first time I heard you saypurpose with regards to your
(14:35):
squiggly journey was when youwere in Tokyo doing the, the
advertising with this is BrandPoint as am I right?
That's right.
So what was it about thatexperience, where a sense of
purpose emerged for you?
Christopher Schoenwald (14:49):
I think at that point, again,
entrepreneurship was this worldthat I'd been within earlier
with the first company that I'dstarted.
And I was getting, you know,some elements of what that was
like, but it was such adifferent experience.
I was down in western Japan forthat first company and primarily
based around language.
And, and it was, it was verylimited.
(15:10):
I mean, in terms of likenetworking possibilities and
whatnot, that world felt a lotsmaller.
But once I moved up to Tokyo, Imean, it's one of the global
cities of the world, right?
And there's so much action,there's so many things going on,
there's so much possibilitythere.
And it felt like the world justopened up in terms of what I
could really explore, againwithin the world of
(15:30):
entrepreneurship, you know, asfar as maybe even support
networks there or learning fromothers.
That was a big portion of it.
But then also too, as we hadthis company, brand point
advertising.
It was this marketing andproduction house.
We would work with advertisingagencies, brands directly and
just trying to like source newideas for them.
Oftentimes from overseas, we'dsecure patents for some of these
(15:52):
marketing technologies.
You know, whether it be a newthree D billboard or or
something of that nature.
Something wacky, somethingcrazy.
But what I really liked about itwas the creativity and doing
something new and, andintroducing ideas that people
had never seen.
You know, like I remember therewas one technology that was like
an Was it e e g,electroencephalograph, and it
(16:13):
was like basically this devicethat you would be wearing on, on
your head, and it was measuringyour e e g, your, your
brainwaves, and you couldcontrol like software based off
of that.
It was just these wild and wackyconversations that you'd be
having.
But I think it pulled me in justbecause they were so novel.
They were just so different.
and that was something that Iwas starting to really key in on
(16:35):
for myself.
That journey was, you know,like, like, like all of our
journeys I suppose.
And what we're doing, we're,we're learning not only about
the profession that we'reinvolved in, but we're also
learning about ourselves andwhat drives us and what we like,
what we don't like.
And I was still very much onthat journey.
Like Maybe the marketingadvertising was the vehicle for
some of those, you know, values,I suppose.
Danu Poyner (16:56):
it sounded like that setting allowed you to see
how all of those differentorientations to the world,
curiosity, creativity, variety,which is not a word you said,
but it's a word I'm I'm hearing.
Uh could come together in a waythat is meaningful to you, but
also meaningful to others.
Christopher Schoenwald (17:19):
Yeah, that was the word I was looking
for.
I just, yeah.
It wasn't coming, but that'sexactly it.
Variety, yeah.
Variety and the work that I wasinvolved in, there's so many
different situations that you'reputting yourself in or being
thrown into that.
Yeah, they, they were engagingand mundane wasn't a word that
was within my world at thatpoint at all, which was a great
thing.
And I was picking up on that.
(17:40):
I was really realizing that thatwas something that I was drawn
towards, was not having that atall.
Danu Poyner (17:45):
I think I wanna ask you just about professional
purpose and just come back tothat because it's so central to
the conversation we're having.
You pitch'life as a...' toparents, educators, and career
guidance professionals as aprogram that might be the spark,
which helps someone find theirprofessional purpose.
Given that we understand yourstory a little bit better, how
(18:05):
do you think about your ownprofessional purpose?
How would you describe it?
And also what is a professionalpurpose?
How do you know when when you'vefound one?
Christopher Schoenwald (18:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, in terms of justprofessional purpose, I think
the way I like to, to look at ithere is just having that
direction within life, you know?
And obviously that ties into tothe work that you're doing.
The amount of hours that we'redevoting to our careers, like
depending on the research thatyou're looking at, it's anywhere
between well, 10 years to 13years roughly.
(18:35):
That's a lot of time obviouslyto be devoting to something, to
one thing, comparativelyspeaking, I mean, the amount of
time that we devote to familyand friends, I think the
research I'd seen was like 369days total in our lives across
our lifetime.
So obviously, like the amountthat we're putting into our
careers, you know, you wanna getthat right or you wanna you
(18:56):
wanna be doing something that ismeaningful to you.
even if you're jumping around alittle bit, you know, even five,
six careers perhaps, that'sstill a lot of time.
You're, you're looking at maybethree, four years if you're
switching careers.
So having that reason for being,and there's a term here, I mean,
we see it all the time in thecorporate world, you, you see it
bandied about, but Ikigai right,the reason for being right?
Danu Poyner (19:19):
Yeah.
I wanted to ask you about Ikigaibecause it's one of those terms
you do see bandied around a bit,and I'm not sure whether it's
tethered to its cultural rootsor not, or whether it's become
one of those, corporate things.
You, you seem like a good personto ask, having been in
Christopher Schoenwald (19:35):
Japan.
Well, I mean, having itoriginated out of Japan and, and
seeing it within the culturehere, I believe it is something
that's real, at least withinthis culture.
It involves having this sense ofpurpose in terms of what you're
intrinsically motiv ated to doand also involves elements of
curiosity, a willingness tolearn, not.
being told, you have to studythis, you need this knowledge.
(19:57):
Like you want to explore it.
You, you really just wanna knowas much as you can about it.
You know, just a general senseof enthusiasm towards what
you're doing.
We have moments of struggle.
But when you have those momentsof struggle, if you have this
purpose within your life, itgives you that extra little
something to dig down a littlebit further and to find your way
(20:18):
out of these problems that arebeing presented to you.
that's a good way of knowing ifyou have this purpose within
your life.
And I think the opposite istrue, I mean, if you don't have
that natural inclination towardslearning more about what you're
involved in or you're notintrinsically motivated by it
all.
Maybe that's a sign, we all havedays where it feels like, oh no,
(20:38):
this isn't right.
But if this is like every singleday for six months for a year or
something, that might be a signfor you.
That's what purpose is to me, Ithink, the professional purpose,
I suppose.
The bleed over from theprofessional into the personal
as well.
Your levels of fulfillment thatare being derived from the work
itself itself and how that'saffecting you, like your outlook
(21:00):
on life and everything else andthe world around you.
And generally I'd say like ifyou're feeling mostly mostly
good about things, there'sprobably a good chance that
that's tied into the work thatyou're doing, right?
And the opposite is true.
I mean, if you're not feeling sosatisfied with life in general,
Again, based off of those stats,the amount of time that you're
devoting to work, there'sprobably a big rub off, from
(21:22):
that realm coming into playhere.
I like this idea of hopefullyproviding this resource that's
going to get somebody closer tofinding that, you know, that's a
really powerful thought.
I'm not naive enough to thinkthat everyone who listens to
this program is going to findit, but maybe they listen to
somebody within a particularindustry and it sparks an idea.
(21:44):
Maybe it's not a profession thatI've covered just yet, but it
inspires somebody to digfurther.
Like, whoa, this area issomething that I'm interested
in.
And then they go out and theyfind a little bit more
information about the industryitself and then some of the
different options in thatindustry, and it sets'em on a
path and maybe they discover itor maybe they are fortunate
enough where they are listeningto an episode and there is this
(22:07):
one profession that just catches'em.
There's a story there.
There's something that's sharedthat absolutely inspires them,
and they dig into it and they goall the way, and who knows,
maybe they end up doing this forthe next 20, 30 years.
that thought is absolutelyexhilarating.
Again, it traces back to thislife and living thing, like what
kind of impact does that have onsomebody's life?
And, and having that purpose andhaving that mission and feeling
(22:30):
good about it.
These are things that I wantedwithin my own life and I, I know
the other side of it of nothaving that.
Creating that opportunity or atleast getting somebody closer to
maybe finding that, I love it.
I just absolutely love thatthought.
So that's kind of my purpose orwhat has been my purpose in
starting this show?
Danu Poyner (22:48):
it's very palpable, the sense of enjoyment and
meaningfulness for you in thework that you're doing.
And the service that it does asa body of work overall is very
impressive.
I found the entrepreneur onesvery inspiring and relatable
and, and resonant.
But I also really enjoyedacademic people that you talk
to.
'cause that's a world I've spenta lot of time around and I've
(23:09):
been now consciously steppingaway from.
But it kind of refreshed myrespect and admiration for that
profession, by listening to someof the people talk about the
meaningfulness of it for them.
So I do want to linger more onthe bleed over, as you put it,
between the professional and thepersonal, both in terms of how
you construct the show and alsoin yourself.
(23:33):
There's a, a saying that someonesaid to me once that I haven't
been able to get out of my mindsince, which is a profession
ends on the day that you retire,but a practice ends on the day
you die.
That's really interesting to mebecause it raises the question
of whether the meaningfulnessand the purpose is located in
the profession and it'ssomething you are drawn to and
(23:56):
you find in the work or whetherany work will draw out the
intrinsic purpose and directionthat you have.
I wonder if you have aperspective on that.
Christopher Schoenwald (24:08):
Ooh, that's a, that's a deep question
there, Danu Yeah.
You got me thinking here.
The purpose for being and whothey are, it definitely connects
up to the work that they'reinvolved in and I think like the
elements of what pull them intothat professional world, maybe
again, we're, we're goingtowards these notions of
curiosity and wanting to learnmore about the world, wanting to
(24:32):
learn more about everythingaround them.
Those are elements that tie into any profession really.
Like, you're, you're alwaysgrowing.
Within anything that you'redoing, the moment you stop, you
know, that's when things die.
That's when things fade out, andthat's when careers probably
fade out.
But I don't know, like, I mean,I've spoken to so many different
types of people on this program,and I get the sneaky suspicion
that a lot of these people, ifthey were allowed to, if their
(24:54):
company's allowed, if, ifthey're not entrepreneurs
themselves and they'reprofessionally working for
someone else, like they wouldcontinue on for as long as they
could.
Really, like I just had thisguest on not too long ago.
She's a, a sake professional,and she discovered this career
basically by her intenseinterest for this product.
She just was driven to learnmore and more about it.
(25:16):
And eventually a career amountedout of this interest.
But when she reaches that pointin her life where maybe the
professional world, she doesn'tneed to be doing it anymore,
she's reaching that point of reretiring.
Like, maybe by then, who knows?
Erin just might have changed.
But like the way she spoke to meabout like that intense
curiosity towards that world andtowards the learning and, and,
(25:38):
and everything that's involvedin it, I cannot imagine somebody
like her just hanging things upand just stopping.
And then there's been so manyother types of guests as well.
Again, maybe stepping into theworld of entrepreneurship who
are passionate about aparticular idea or they have
this mission in life that Ican't imagine is just going to
stop when they reach this pointof like, well, this is the age
(25:58):
that which society says that Ineed to stop doing this.
You know, I've reached 66 5,whatever it is.
Okay, I'm just gonna give up onall of this.
I, I, I just can't see thathappening.
Their professional world becomeswho they are as a person.
To just stop that would be forthem to stop being who they are,
you know, fundamentallyspeaking.
Danu Poyner (26:19):
what is the name that you give to your profession
these days?
Christopher Schoenwald (26:24):
Hmm.
I mean, in the simplest terms,I'm just like a host, right?
I a host of this program orlike, but like if you're, I was
gonna dig into a little bitfurther maybe, a guide of sorts,
a career sherpa if I really wantto be creative here.
Danu Poyner (26:36):
Career Sherpa.
I like That a lot.
But it goes to the question of,you know, what's your
relationship to the workcurrently?
this show that you do is soclearly, a labor of love for
you.
I can tell in, in the way thatyou speak about it, but also
you're very careful in thepromotional language.
for it to put a lot of emphasison the value that it has for
(26:58):
different audiences, and how itcan be a useful resource for
them, as you say.
So I'm just interested in thatinterplay between the value for
others and the creativefulfillment that it gives you as
a kind of exploration and whatwould happen if if for some
reason you had to stop doing itand you couldn't do it anymore,
what would you do?
Christopher Schoenwald (27:18):
In terms of what it offers to me.
Yeah.
I mean, it, it, it's endlessExploration is what it is for
me.
I'm tapping into worlds that Iwould never get to know, get to
understand, and I remember whenI was considering this program
and considering what I wanted.
At that point, I knew I wasdriven by this notion of
(27:39):
curiosity.
I wanted to learn more and I wastrying to figure out ways of
doing so, and this program wasborn outta the pandemic, so that
maybe there's like that feelingof isolation as well.
where I'm based within WesternJapan, I'm not within a big city
anymore.
It's a town of 50,000 people.
It's absolutely gorgeous.
It's beautiful.
But during the pandemic, weweren't locked down here, but
things were not opennecessarily.
(28:00):
And I certainly wasn't travelingback to Canada, seeing friends
and family there, and even thefriends that I had, you know,
within this region, you weren'tmeeting them.
So I was looking for some degreeof connection there.
And I thought too, like, well,maybe this program and this
stuff is tossing around in mymind of life as a would be a
neat opportunity to explorethese worlds while still.
You know, never really leavingleaving my home, right?
(28:22):
Like I'm stepping into theirworld.
If I can construct it in such away and ask the right kind of
questions, I can be immersingmyself into their world, even
just for an hour for 45 minutes.
And how exhilarating would thatbe?
From a standpoint of being alittle bit selfish there and,
and exploring that, but thenalso providing this other
element to other people, you'reright.
I mean, that was part of mythought process from the get go.
(28:44):
And I was hoping that just maybeothers might even find value in
that as well.
Maybe they're not looking fortheir next career necessarily
but they wanna break from theirown reality, you know, and they
just wanna step into somebodyelse's world and hear what
they're going through,'causeoftentimes there is this thread
that kind of runs through thewhole common human experience
There's commonality no matterwhat you're doing professionally
(29:08):
speaking, that we can all sortof relate on some level.
So I was hoping as well thatthat might be a nice break for
people from this crazy worldthat we're living wIthin.
Danu Poyner (29:17):
I'm glad you framed it that way, Christopher and as
someone who also sees lots andlots of options and and
potential to do different thingsand is burdened by the knowledge
that you can't do everything inlife, but you still want to.
My way of solving thatpersonally has been to do
something similar and that you,you step into other people's
worlds for a little bit at atime, and you get to kind of
(29:40):
have a vicarious enjoyment andhopefully paint a, a picture
that might be useful to othersalong the way.
But I also was interested tohear the deeper theme in the
work there.
it's more than just theprofession itself.
You're inviting people to stepinto an imaginative space that
you're facilitating where theycan, uh, through seeing mirrors
(30:02):
reflected, they can become moreaccurate reflections of
themselves in a way.
Christopher Schoenwald (30:07):
it is a bit of a selfish endeavor
though, as well, you know, like,I, I derive so much from doing
it as well and hearing thesepeople speak and.
It's like front row in some ofthese performances in a sense,
like I'm hearing these storiesfirsthand sometimes, you know,
people share things for the veryfirst time or maybe they told
this story a million times over,but it's the first time for me,
it's the first time forlisteners.
(30:28):
You've had moments where guestshave been so moved by experience
and they're relating thatexperience.
the way they share that, youknow, the moments of elation,
the moments of triumph, themoments of difficulty or
heartache, and they share someof these feelings.
And how can you not be moved bythat?
When you're hearing this, thisthis powerful story that's
(30:49):
coming across in such a way thathas impacted this person's life
and their, their views on lifeand where they're at, where
they'd like to go.
It's hard not to be moved bythat.
And I, I swear, like each andevery episode I come away from
after the recording, I'm, I'mjust like buzzing over what was
said, the story or, or thisviewpoint on something that I'd
(31:10):
never, ever considered.
I feel as though my world opensup a little bit more every
single time that I speak tosomebody.
I'll have conversations with myolder daughter who's 10, going
to be 11 soon, and she'sapproaching that age of
maturity, I suppose, where sheknows her, her place in the
world, at least right now, andwhere her world could be going
down the line.
in the future, yes, you aregonna have to make some
(31:31):
decisions, certainly not now,but within the next four or 5,
6, 7 years at least.
Trying to figure out what, whatdrives you, what motivates you.
And it's an absolute pleasure tobe able to speak with her about
some of the guests that I havein my program.
I know for her and a lot ofother kids at her age, like you
have those standard handful ofjobs, you know, you could be a
(31:53):
doctor, you could be a nurse,you could be a police officer, a
veterinarian, like those six or7, 8, 9, 10 jobs or whatever
that everyone thinks of whenthey're a kid, right?
But I have these reallyinteresting conversations with
her where then it piques hercuriosity and she'll ask me a
little bit more.
So it becomes something elsewhere like, yes, we're speaking
about the program and some ofthe guests, and I put it down to
(32:14):
a level of course where she canunderstand, but then it becomes
a point of connection for herand I and our relationship as a
father and daughter.
And, and that's special to me aswell.
She'll dig in and she'llresearch that person, that
guest, a bit further.
And yeah.
You, you know, you're having animpact.
Danu Poyner (32:29):
Just showing people what there is and the
possibilities is something thatreally, really sticks out to me.
I'm thinking of my dad, whospent a lot of time, like his
professional career was inaccounting, which is not
something that he wanted to do.
He wanted to be like a member ofthe Beatles.
I think he's 70 something andstill deciding what he wants to
(32:51):
be when he grows up.
But, he always tells the storyof how at the high school, he
went to the guidance counselorand they had this literally the
list of six things that you canbe, and, uh, he said he liked
filling in forms, so he pickedaccounting and then there you
go.
Then that's decades of of yourlife.
Christopher Schoenwald (33:07):
there it is.
Right.
I know, I know.
That's, that's almost liketerrifying to me, you know, in,
in a way.
And I don't know how muchfurther we progressed in that
area.
Certainly there's differentquestionnaires obviously and
whatnot like that, that aresupposedly there to help guide
students to find possible careeroptions for them.
(33:28):
And I think there may be alittle bit more evolved now, so
it does lead you to, you know,some other, Fields of study
perhaps but at the same time,like how limiting are those too?
I in this job market now you'rehaving new professions popping
up all the time and how up todate are some of these software
programs that are being used tolike generate options for
students?
(33:48):
Within the US generally theavailability of career
counselors for students is likeone career counselor per, I
think in one of the best statesmight be 70 some students in
some of the worst states inAmerica, one career counselor
per two to 300 students.
How many opportunities do peoplehave to really speak with a
professional about thesedifferent options?
(34:09):
What area to study withincollege or university and, and
the amount of financialresources that go towards these
things as well.
And if you don't really give alot of thought towards that or
you're not really sure, youcould be, you know, setting
yourself back a little bit.
that's acknowledging that a lotof us still have squiggly
careers and, have trouble.
Or we, we have these windy pastultimately finding what we like,
(34:30):
but if we can kind of like ironout some of those wrinkles along
the way and, and, you know, easethat burden of maybe getting a
little bit closer to that targetsooner, I think there's value in
that.
And that's, yeah, part of mymission here too.
Danu Poyner (34:44):
Now that you've done a hundred episodes, I'm
curious what you have learnedabout life and living from doing
all those interviews and whatyou've learned about work.
Christopher Schoenwald (34:54):
Yeah.
I mean, it's still ongoing, Iwould say, but there's a few
things, a few themes that comeup.
I think having variety within acareer, within life is, is
certainly a good thing.
You know, the mundane is adanger point for a lot of
people.
Not for everyone, certainly, butfor a lot of people.
And if you're noticing thatwithin your life, maybe that's
something you, you wanna beaware of uh, if you can imagine
(35:16):
yourself doing something overand over and over again, what
kind of feeling that wouldgenerate, you know, maybe it's a
good thing, maybe
Danu Poyner (35:21):
It.
This is
Christopher Schoenwald (35:22):
but
Danu Poyner (35:23):
Customs in Immigration thing.
Christopher Schoenwald (35:24):
Yeah, exactly.
There's several other types ofwork that's out there too, but
like from the people I've spokenwith, the amount of variety is,
is a key point for them.
other things as well.
I mean, failure, this notion offailure along the way.
Every single person I've spokento on this program has failed.
we have these images of, ofcertain people that Oh, surely,
you know, that person was justlike on this straight line up
(35:46):
right from the get go, rightwhen they, you know, started
this, that journey.
Well, the reality of it is sofar from that, you know, they,
they failed along the way, justas you and I have.
I think maybe how they handleit, how they frame their
failures is what determines howthey pick themselves up and, and
get on with things.
How they find success later on,how they learn from it.
(36:07):
That's always a, a theme thatcomes up in the program as well.
I find a lot of the people thatare finding success within their
careers are really keyed in onjust learning more about not
only themselves, what, whatdrives them, but then also the
work that they're doing.
How can they continually learnabout more about where that job
(36:27):
is going, how theresponsibilities are evolving
within that profession, and justthe, the eagerness towards all
of that.
I think that's a big part ofhaving fulfillment, having
mission, having this drive tosucceed.
I think work is part of thishuman experience.
You know, it's funny, like we,uh, within society might have
this vision of like, okay, I'mgonna work until I retire, and
(36:49):
then my life begins.
Then the fun begins, you know?
Maybe I'm, I'm not getting likethis completely representative
look at the workforce.
'cause the people that want tospeak about their careers are
people that are generallypassionate about what they do.
I acknowledge that, but at thesame time, like these people, at
least they are driveninternally.
(37:11):
And, and I can't imagine most ofthese people just turning off,
you know, maybe theirprofessional responsibilities
end, but some of the elements ofwhat made them successful within
their careers are going tocontinue on.
Maybe they're just gonna sinkthose feelings and emotions into
something else or somethingsimilar.
Or maybe they're gonna go into anonprofit perhaps.
Like I can envision a lot of thepeople that I've had on that are
(37:33):
still gonna wanna contribute insome way.
And I think that's a, a reallybig portion of, you know, this
life and living experience aswell.
That's really important.
And just a few of the themesthat I've picked up on along the
way.
Danu Poyner (37:44):
Yeah, you really get a sketch of a certain kind
of way of being in the worldlistening to that.
that makes me wanna ask youabout the term grokkist, because
that's one of the reasons thatwe're here.
These are people who have aorientation to the world that's
most deeply anchored incuriosity and care.
(38:05):
And that eagerness, um, as anice, nice way of putting it
that you put to show up notalways in that kind of straight
line, success achievement in, ina material way, but just in a
standards of self, uh, in, inthe way that you show up and
that thirst for new experienceand understanding and to just
drink it all in.
Those are the people I callgrokkists.
(38:27):
is that a, a term that resonateswith you at all?
Christopher Schoenw (38:30):
absolutely.
The way you just laid it outthere, I feel like that's
somebody that maybe I've come tobe.
Maybe I, maybe I wasn't thatalways.
Perhaps and you know, maybeit's, it's part of a progression
for, for a lot of people, but atleast for me, I, I would say
that that fits, reach a certainpoint where your own maturity,
maybe when you're younger, likepart of a career and what that
(38:51):
represents is the material, youknow, and like, oh, you, you
need the big salary so you canget this, this, and this.
And then the further you getalong within your career, the
further that that you age andyou gain this sense of maturity
of what's important, you realizethat that shouldn't be the goal.
That isn't the goal necessarily.
Sure.
It's not a terrible thing if itcomes along, you know, with
(39:12):
everything else, but it's, it'sthis fulfillment, and finding
that drive, finding thatpurpose.
I think it's a big part of it,of experience of life, of having
this life well lived.
Danu Poyner (39:23):
That makes me want to ask, about you and your
journey.
You, you mentioned earlier thatyou were hoping you would still
have the same passion for whatyou're doing in seven years
time, so I'm curious if you'vethought about that and, and what
you think that the life as aand, and the ecosystem around it
might look like in that amountof time.
If you still do have the passionfor it,
Christopher Schoenwald (39:45):
Well, I hope so.
I hope so.
we're fast approaching two yearsof, of having this program going
and my vision for it from thebeginning is, is changed a
little bit along the way.
I think in the beginning it wasmore of this break from reality
for people to kind of step intoa different world.
I think at that point it wasjust like, just creating a
podcast, you know, as simple as,as that, you know, for people.
(40:05):
And then also too to kind ofserve the needs of, of youth
perhaps.
It was just really broad innature and I realized that
probably at some point along theway it would narrow down,
whether it was by choice or byby circumstance.
I recognize the fact that noteveryone is going to be as
curiously minded as myself ormaybe even you Danu, or, or
other people like us, perhapsand I think that's what's come
(40:27):
along is like, my listenershiphas been solid, you know, I'd
say from start to finish, but atthe same time, I don't see it
like for just people who alreadyhave careers, that are just
looking to step into a differentworld.
Like I think that's such a smallsegment of the population that
in terms of growing out thisprogram and, you know, making a
living off of it, you need alittle bit more and you need,
(40:49):
like you said, ecosystem, youneed to be able, the ecosystem
around it.
But fortunately, one of theother ideas that I did have and
I just mentioned earlier, waslike, youth and, and aiming this
program towards youth, highschool students even to
university age students as well.
But, but mainly I would say highschool students.
My vision for it would be nowthat I'm approaching this point
of having a, a content library,you know, basically that's what
(41:10):
it's becoming a hundred episodesand continually adding to that
is I think now that I can startapproaching boards of education,
school districts, those types ofassociations, nonprofits as
well, you know, big brothers,big sisters, at least within
North America.
Having it as a program whereeducators can use it as a
resource, you know, plug it intotheir existing system or use it
(41:33):
as a standalone for students togo through an eight week
program, 10, 12 week, whateverit might be.
Or maybe it's a yearly programwhere they're exploring a new
career and there's, there'sactivities tied into this that
aim to elicit their feelingsabout where they would like to
go in life, maybe to kind oflike, experiment with it.
And, I don't know if they havea, this certain hypothesis about
(41:54):
what this job is all about orwhat it could mean for them.
My vision for it is, is for itto become that something bigger,
and ultimately, if it reachesthat stage, well then, like it
is delivering on scale at thatpoint.
When I think about what thatcould mean for me personally, in
a selfish way, that is, like,that's a impacting a lot of
(42:16):
people's lives in a positiveway.
if it reaches that, like, I, I,I couldn't be happier.
that would be the ultimate thingright there.
I Feel good about contributingto the world in a positive way,
and having a lot of positiveoutcomes for a number of
different people
Danu Poyner (42:31):
sure.
I'd be surprised if it takes youseven years to get there.
I do wish you the best withthat.
And, and related to it, whatwould you most like to be known
for or known as?
I guess
Christopher Schoenwald (42:45):
Well, I guess kind of connecting up to
that as somebody who had apositive impact on others, that,
that cared enough to, to dothese types of things and
somebody who is respectful ofothers and, and trying to serve
their needs as much as possible.
Danu Poyner (42:58):
I am still thinking about the phrase career Sherpa
that you said.
I don't know whether that wasjust improvised or not, but as
we've been talking, I've beenthinking about it more and
thinking this is, this is agreat metaphor because you are
traversing the same terrain overand over and over again, and
there's a lot of similarity inthe conversations that you have.
But the meaning, uh, and thevalue in it is in the person
(43:21):
that you meet and therelationship you have.
And each journey across thatsame terrain is unique and
special because of therelationship.
So I, I really like it
Christopher Schoenwald (43:31):
well, may maybe I need a rebrand,
Danu Poyner (43:34):
who knows but anyway, in the moment, it
sounded good to me and, uh, andI like it there's a question I
ask everyone who comes on, theshow, and that is, if you could
gift someone a life changinglearning experience, what would
it be and why?
Christopher Schoenwald (43:49):
yeah, yeah.
I really like this question.
I think it would be a life livedabroad, at least for a year and
a minimum a year's time.
And I think the reasons forthat, it just forces you to step
out of your own world, your ownworldviews, the way that you
interpret the world.
It just challenges your ownideas of what's right, what's
(44:11):
wrong, you know?
And I think a lot of people havebeen quoted as saying, I mean, a
lot of the world troubles thatwe have right now would be
solved if we just had like theseprograms set up where everyone
could experience another cultureat least once within their life,
not just like buy the internetor even a conversation on the
internet, but literally steppinginto a different world, you
know, breathing in the air of adifferent region of the world
(44:33):
and all of that, what thatrepresents, it'd be a lot easier
for people to, to find a commonground.
Which oftentimes is, is whattroubles us the most these days,
it would seem.
That would be something that,again, speaking of my own
experiences as of living abroadand now, my ability to look at
my own culture and, and elementsthat I like and elements that I
(44:53):
don't like, and, and, andchallenging some of those
thoughts, some of those ideasand finding bits and pieces of
another culture that I findreally appealing and great, and
some things that I don't, but atleast having these ideas that
the world is so unique.
It is so distinct that justslipping into one mindset or one
worldview, it's, it's adangerous thing, you know?
(45:13):
And if you can sort of like givethat opportunity to somebody to
understand that there's so muchmore out there that that's
powerful
Danu Poyner (45:20):
Definitely.
Put yourself experientially in adifferent situation for a good
amount of time, you are forcedto realize that a lot of the
things that you take for grantedor you haven't thought about,
can be different.
Things can be different thanyou're used to them being.
And that possibility raises theidea that you can change and
(45:42):
that there are alternatives.
And that if you wanna step intothat sense of possibility
consciously, then we don't needto be so attached to the things
that we deeply hold or that wejust haven't thought about.
And that there's a lot of hopein that thought, I think, for me
at least.
I do detect that kind of theme alittle bit in, in the work that
you're doing, this theme ofmoving past the level of
(46:07):
tribalism in our publicdiscourse, it comes up in some
of your interviews where peoplelocked into their viewpoints and
talking past each other a lot.
with your show, one of thethings you're doing is providing
different perspectives andviewpoints.
How conscious, uh, a deepermission is that as part of your
work.
Christopher Schoenwald (46:25):
I never really considered that, to be
honest, until you just sort ofraised that point.
But I think the program itselfand the way I envisioned it, and
in my own personality, my ownstamp on it, is I like to be
respectful of each and everyperson that I meet and certainly
every guest that I have on theprogram.
the focus of the show isn't tobe debating big ideas within the
world necessarily.
(46:46):
Like I just want to exposepeople to different lives,
different ideas.
Fortunately, you know, like thetypes of subject matter that
come up on the show aren'tdeeply controversial, I would
say, either.
So like, you know, it doesn'tprod me into a discussion or a
debate either.
But at the same time, like I dolike the idea of letting people
(47:06):
speak and I'm not the type ofhost where I I'm interjecting
all the time or trying tointerrupt.
I like to let that person getout what they have to say.
in a way, I think that sort ofaccomplishes what you're
speaking of is, is you're givingsomebody a voice, you know that
they feel safe enough, thatthey're gonna be heard, that
they can get out, they canexpress the way that they want
(47:27):
to express.
And I think that's a reallyimportant element.
Whereas, you know, sometimeswithin other mediums or you
know, within culture as a whole,We're so quick to jump on
somebody the moment they saythere's a trigger word or a
trigger phrase that, you couldgo after.
I never wanted the program to beabout anything like that.
It comes down to listening,right?
If you can better understand whothat person is, what their
(47:50):
experiences were or all about,you might have a better handle
on why they think a certain way.
powerful and I think that'sreally meaningful as well.
I I do subconsciously, Isuppose, maybe build that into
the program and maybe thatreflects my personality as well
and the way I wanna interactwith people.
Danu Poyner (48:08):
that's a very good answer.
I just wanted to offer as a bodyof work, as a content library,
as you put it, that hopefulworldview is quite apparent when
you step back and look at it asa whole body of work.
So I just wanted to offer thatthought to you.
Christopher Schoenwald (48:23):
No, thank you.
Yeah, that's great to hear.
You know, it's interesting tohave these types of
conversations because I feel I'mlearning that much more about
this program in speaking withyou Danu and like your
observations of it and what itmeans and how it could be
interpreted, and it's been sucha really valuable experience on
that side of things, you know,
Danu Poyner (48:39):
Oh, thank you Christopher.
Is there anything you'd like totalk about that we haven't
covered today?
Christopher Schoenwald (48:46):
One thing I'd like to leave with
people is that again, where,where this program is and where
I'm going with it, it's stillvery early stages and I am right
now just beginning to work witheducators on building out a
progrqm that is, you know,career-minded, career resource
minded for students, particularhigh school students.
(49:06):
And we're looking for, you know,schools themselves, pilot
programs to set up an eight to10 week program to allow
students to kind of interactwith the content, to have extra
resources and, uh, to kind ofgauge, you know, what kind of
impact this could have.
So, if there's any of yourlisteners, I'm not sure where
they're coming from exactly, butif there's anyone, whoever has
an interest in this, maybethey're within education or
(49:26):
would like to learn more aboutmaybe setting something up, I'd
be all ears for that so I've gota website, like as a.com, you
can find me on, uh, most of themajor social platforms like
Instagram or Facebook orLinkedIn.
Danu Poyner (49:40):
Yeah, thanks.
very much for that.
We will, of course, put all ofthe links to everything in the
show notes and do check out theshow if you haven't already.
It's been a great pleasurespeaking to you, uh,
Christopher.
I really enjoyed it.
I've learned a lot about whatI'm doing as well,
Christopher Schoenwald (49:56):
Well, thank you.
Yeah, it's been an absolutepleasure and I really enjoy
your, your podcast as well here.
I think that the types of gueststhat you've had and the types of
discussions that, that you'reable to elicit really, really
intriguing, really interesting.
And, uh, I certainly enjoy themas well.
So thank you for, for having meon.
It's been an honor.
That's what purpose is to me, I think
(00:01):
this sense of purpose you'reintrinsically motiv ated to do
and also involves elements ofcuriosity, a willingness to
learn, not.
being told, you have to studythis, you need this knowledge.
Like you want to explore it.
You, you really just wanna knowas much as you can about it.
A general sense of enthusiasmtowards what you're doing.
When you have those moments ofstruggle, if you have this
(00:22):
purpose within your life, itgives you that extra little
something to dig down a littlebit further and to find your way
out of these problems that arebeing presented to you.
that's a good way of knowing ifyou have this purpose within
your life.
And I think the opposite istrue, I mean, if you don't have
that natural inclination towardslearning more about what you're
involved in or you're notintrinsically motivated by it
(00:44):
all.
Maybe that's a sign, we all havedays where it feels like, oh no,
this isn't right.
But if this is like every singleday for six months for a year or
something, that might be a signfor you.
Danu Poyner (01:00):
You're listening to the still curious podcast with
me, Daniel pointer, the showwhere I meet people who insist
on relating to the world withcuriosity and care and talk to
them about the red thread thatruns through their life story.
And which ultimately empowersthem to flourish as their
unrepeatable selves.
The voice.
He just heard belongs to myguest today.
(01:20):
Christopher Sean Wald, host andproducer of the life as a
podcast.
And internationally awardedpodcast intently focused on
helping youth and mid careerprofessionals.
Find professional career ideas.
And all business pathways byexploring and on earthing, the
details of jobs from around theworld.
(01:41):
Christopher's guests include MITprofessors, world food program
officers, skydivers, venturecapitalists, famed musicians,
eco minded entrepreneurs, andNetflix reality stars.
All of whom have plenty to offerto those looking for
occupational knowledge,insights, and advice for those
presently engaged in trying tofind career planning.
(02:02):
Clarity and inspiration.
I've been listening toChristopher's life as a podcast
for a while now.
And one of the things I likeabout it is how he focuses not
on the career itself, but ratherthe relationship that someone
has to their career.
You get to understand the shapeof a career through the people
in it.
And you also get to understandthe shape of a person by the
(02:24):
way, they relate to their chosenprofession.
Christopher is a thoughtful andcurious interviewer.
Who's interested in the waywork, shapes our lives and what
it means to find purposedirection and personal
fulfillment through professionalactivity.
And like many people, both of usspeak to Christopher's own
professional direction was notsomething he started off with in
(02:47):
any clear sense.
But rather something he hasgrown into.
Christopher Schoenwald (02:51):
I didn't have a plan A was a good
student.
I was motivated.
I, I did my work.
got great, good grades.
I was valedictorian in my, mygraduating class.
I think for, for others theywould say like, oh, you're
destined for success, orwhatever you do is gonna turn to
gold.
But in my mind, at that time, Ijust did not know what I wanted.
I really didn't.
And it was driving me nuts.
I Friends or, or classmates,they knew, or at least,
(03:13):
seemingly they knew what theywanted to do.
I just didn't have that.
I was so undecided and there wasso much angst and frustration
and a whole myriad of emotionsthat were just swirling around
constantly.
Danu Poyner (03:26):
After mulling over his options.
Christopher decided to pursue adegree in sociology, hoping that
a career direction would leapout at him along the way.
It didn't.
Meanwhile though he worked forCanadian customs and immigration
during his studies.
Stamping passports, interviewingarrivals and even dabbling with
(03:46):
some aspects of law enforcement.
This was the way Christopherfirst gained an appreciation for
the way work can shape aperson's worldview.
If the work you do isrepetitive.
After a while, you can lose yourspark.
And if you're only about havingcertain kinds of interactions
with certain kinds of people,well, that can lead you to be
less open-minded quicker tojudge and harder to budge.
(04:09):
This wasn't the kind of futureChristopher saw for himself.
So instead, still seekingclarity and also looking to pay
off his student loans.
He moved to Japan to teachEnglish.
It was supposed to be for ayear, but over 20 years later,
he's still there.
He started a business in Japan,focused on teaching English and
consulting, helping companiesand individuals improve their
(04:31):
global skills.
Later he moved to Tokyo andco-founded a marketing and
advertising company called brandpoint.
And this venture allowed him toexplore on a larger scale in a
global city.
Further developing his interestin nonlinear thought and
innovation.
Through these experiences,Christopher had realized that
his professional purpose wastied to entrepreneurship,
(04:54):
creativity, and a desire forinherent variety and novelty in
his work.
You can really hear howimportant all of this is when he
talks about why he likes doinghis podcast.
Christopher Schoenwald (05:07):
It's endless Exploration is what it
is for me.
I'm tapping into worlds that Iwould never get to know, get to
understand, and I remember whenI was considering what I wanted.
At that point, I knew I wasdriven by this notion of
curiosity.
I wanted a neat opportunity toexplore these worlds while
still.
You know, never really leavingleaving my home, right?
(05:29):
Like I'm stepping into theirworld.
If I can construct it in such away and ask the right kind of
questions, I can be immersingmyself into their world, even
just for an hour for 45 minutes.
And how exhilarating would thatbe?
And
Danu Poyner (05:41):
Through his podcast, Christopher hopes to
contribute to a broaderunderstanding of various
professions.
There are more career optionsthan ever, but how many
opportunities do people reallyhave to know what those options
are and what they involve fromthe people who are involved in
them?
He's now over 100 episodes inand aiming to expand the reach
(06:03):
of his podcast by collaboratingwith educators to guide and
influence young people in theircareer choices.
So, how does he describe hisprofession today?
Christopher Schoenwald (06:13):
In the simplest terms, I'm just like a
host, right?
I a host of this program orlike, but like if you're, I was
gonna dig into a little bitfurther maybe, a guide of sorts,
a career sherpa if I really wantto be creative here.
Danu Poyner (06:25):
I really liked the Korea ship, that metaphor
because one Christopher istraversing the same terrain over
and over again with his guests.
Each journey across that sameterrain is different and
special.
Because of the uniquerelationship and characteristics
of the person and the professionhe is taking the journey with.
We will find out more aboutChristopher's journey and what
(06:47):
he's learned along the way aboutpersonal and professional
fulfillment.
On the other side of the musicon today's episode of the still
curious podcast.
(07:22):
Hi, Christopher.
Welcome to the podcast.
How are you?
Christopher Schoenwald (07:25):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Really excited for this.
Danu Poyner (07:28):
So let's get into it.
in your words, you host andproduce'Life as a...', an
internationally awarded podcastintently focused on helping
youth and mid-careerprofessionals find professional
career ideas and or businesspathways by exploring and
unearthing the details of jobsfrom around the world.
And some of your episodes havefeatured an M I T Professor,
(07:51):
world Food Program Officer,skydiver, Venture Capitalist,
famed musician, eco mindedentrepreneur, or a Netflix
reality star, all of whom haveplenty to offer to those looking
for occupational knowledge,insights, and advice for those
presently engaged in trying tofind career planning, clarity,
and inspiration.
(08:12):
So that's a lot.
what would you say is the mostimportant thing for someone to
understand about'life as a...'
Christopher Schoenwald (08:19):
Yeah, great question.
I really like that.
I think it's, it's a resourcereally for people that maybe
have some angst or uncertaintyabout what they want, what they
wanna do, getting back to thatword of purpose, what they're
looking for within their life.
And I think, part of what thisprogram represents to me isn't
just the career aspect of it.
You're learning about differentjobs, the roles, the
(08:42):
responsibilities, the nuts andbolts of what people do, what
they're devoting their livestowards.
But also too, there's this wholelife and living element that's
attached to it.
You know, so what does it meanto be a veterinarian?
What does it mean to be a socialengineer?
Like, what kind of impact doesthat have on somebody's life?
When you take on theseresponsibilities of the job
itself, your world changes andultimately your world views are
(09:05):
gonna shift around a little bit,just based on the people that
you're consistently interactingwith, the types of things that
you're involved with, the typesof information that you're keyed
in on.
All of this has spillovereffects into the personal side
of things.
So I think having a good handleon both the job duties
themselves, as well as what someof these other elements consist
(09:26):
of is critical.
Danu Poyner (09:28):
One of the things I like about your show is how it
focuses not on the careeritself, but rather the
relationship that someone has totheir career.
You get to understand the shapeof a career by the way it gets
lived out by someone.
And you also get to understandthe shape of a person, by the
way, they live out their work.
I'm Just wondering how much yougave thought to all of that when
(09:50):
coming up with the show.
Christopher Schoenwald (09:51):
That was definitely part of the reason
for creating it in the firstplace, I really wanted to
include that element into itall.
Almost always, I'm trying tobuild in at least a question or
two that relates back to theperson's world, you know,
related to their work, you know,what kind of impact it's had on
their life.
How it's shifted their views oncertain things, how they feel
(10:13):
about profession, how they feelabout themselves and their place
within their profession.
I, wanted to find out frompeople, what kind of impact
these jobs had.
It's been a couple years, almosta couple years, nearly a hundred
episodes.
And I can tell you, these thingsdo match up as far as the impact
that the career has on theperson and the things I was just
(10:33):
speaking of, the rub off oftellthings do match up as far as
world, how their worldview shiftand change because of the work
that they do.
Danu Poyner (10:43):
It might be useful for people who aren't familiar
with your show.
If you want to take a moment tojust step through how the
different sections work and, andwhat you do cover in the course
of a typical interview.
Christopher Schoenwald (10:53):
Sure.
Yeah.
Off the top I'm introducing theguests, their professional
history.
oftentimes this is informationthat they're supplying over,
across to me.
You know, the prthese thingsonalbios, it might be on a website,
it might be a conference bio,and it kind of lightly
introduces some of theirexperiences, what done in their
career, some of theireducational backgrounds of the
highlights.
And then I have this segment,called Coloring Wikipedia, and
(11:16):
it's a segment that I takeeither the title of their career
or something related to theircareer, like the topic or the
area of study or whatever itmight be.
And I just take this drydefinition from Wikipedia and I
read it off for them, And Iinvite them to comment on it,
how accurate this definition is,what's missing, what could be
(11:36):
added, or what elements of thatdefinition are spot on.
And I let the guests kind oftake it from there.
It also recognizes the fact thateach individual is gonna put
their own individual stamp onthe work that they do as well.
And then from there, I get intoa day in the life where we break
down what that person's doing,what takes their time, you know,
(11:57):
what types of responsibilitiesthey have on a daily basis,
weekly, monthly.
And then from there I transitioninto a q and a discovery.
Now, once we get through those,I do transition into this water
cooler story segment, and it'san opportunity for the guest to
share a story, and this is alsodriving at the point of how it's
impacted that person's life.
Danu Poyner (12:17):
Yeah..
Oh, I'm curious to, to learnmore about your sense of
professional purpose and yourmotivation and ambition.
But did Young Christopher have aplan A?
Christopher Schoenwald (12:28):
Yeah, nice question.
No, I think that was the bigproblem for me is, coming out of
high school, I, was a goodstudent.
I was motivated.
I, I did my work.
I got great, well, very goodgrades.
I was valedictorian in my, mygraduating class.
I think for, for others theywould say like, oh, you're
destined for success, orwhatever you do is gonna turn to
gold.
But in my mind, at that time, Ijust did not know what I wanted.
(12:51):
I really didn't.
And it was driving me nuts.
Friends or, or classmates, theyknew, or at least, seemingly
they knew what they wanted todo.
You know, this is what their,their, their goal was.
This is the ki kind of careerthat they were after.
And for me, I just didn't havethat.
I was so undecided and there wasso much angst and frustration
and a whole myriad of emotionsthat were just swirling around
(13:12):
constantly.
So, no, I I didn't have an ideaand I was remember thinking of
like, well, maybe this or maybethat, and I would consider these
different careers and, and, andtrying to decide, you know, an
area of study for university wasa nightmare.
I thought for a little while,maybe in natural sciences and
and then ultimately landed on,you know, sociology as because
of the, the broad nature of whatthat study offered now is
(13:36):
hoping, hoping, hoping, hopingthat I would find something
within there, you know, maybethere was some course, maybe it
was a criminology course ormaybe it was something, you
know, social welfare issues.
Maybe it was academia itself.
Maybe something that was goingto really like, just catch me
within that degree.
But yeah, I, I didn't have aplan A and as you've kind of
(13:59):
probably gathered at this point,our like graduating.
I still didn't have that plan A,so yeah, that, that, that was a
big, it was a big portion of mylife that was just not clicking
in the way that I'd envisionedor wanted it to.
Danu Poyner (14:13):
It's interesting to be in that situation of being
very aware that you're kind ofgonna be okay on some basic
level no matter what you do, andthere's an overwhelming array of
options.
And you're quite motivated thatyou want to do something, but,
but, but, but what and why?
Uh, and so you try some stuff.
The first time I heard you saypurpose with regards to your
(14:35):
squiggly journey was when youwere in Tokyo doing the, the
advertising with this is BrandPoint as am I right?
That's right.
So what was it about thatexperience, where a sense of
purpose emerged for you?
Christopher Schoenwald (14:49):
I think at that point, again,
entrepreneurship was this worldthat I'd been within earlier
with the first company that I'dstarted.
And I was getting, you know,some elements of what that was
like, but it was such adifferent experience.
I was down in western Japan forthat first company and primarily
based around language.
And, and it was, it was verylimited.
(15:10):
I mean, in terms of likenetworking possibilities and
whatnot, that world felt a lotsmaller.
But once I moved up to Tokyo, Imean, it's one of the global
cities of the world, right?
And there's so much action,there's so many things going on,
there's so much possibilitythere.
And it felt like the world justopened up in terms of what I
could really explore, againwithin the world of
(15:30):
entrepreneurship, you know, asfar as maybe even support
networks there or learning fromothers.
That was a big portion of it.
But then also too, as we hadthis company, brand point
advertising.
It was this marketing andproduction house.
We would work with advertisingagencies, brands directly and
just trying to like source newideas for them.
Oftentimes from overseas, we'dsecure patents for some of these
(15:52):
marketing technologies.
You know, whether it be a newthree D billboard or or
something of that nature.
Something wacky, somethingcrazy.
But what I really liked about itwas the creativity and doing
something new and, andintroducing ideas that people
had never seen.
You know, like I remember therewas one technology that was like
an Was it e e g,electroencephalograph, and it
(16:13):
was like basically this devicethat you would be wearing on, on
your head, and it was measuringyour e e g, your, your
brainwaves, and you couldcontrol like software based off
of that.
It was just these wild and wackyconversations that you'd be
having.
But I think it pulled me in justbecause they were so novel.
They were just so different.
and that was something that Iwas starting to really key in on
(16:35):
for myself.
That journey was, you know,like, like, like all of our
journeys I suppose.
And what we're doing, we're,we're learning not only about
the profession that we'reinvolved in, but we're also
learning about ourselves andwhat drives us and what we like,
what we don't like.
And I was still very much onthat journey.
Like Maybe the marketingadvertising was the vehicle for
some of those, you know, values,I suppose.
Danu Poyner (16:56):
it sounded like that setting allowed you to see
how all of those differentorientations to the world,
curiosity, creativity, variety,which is not a word you said,
but it's a word I'm I'm hearing.
Uh could come together in a waythat is meaningful to you, but
also meaningful to others.
Christopher Schoenwald (17:19):
Yeah, that was the word I was looking
for.
I just, yeah.
It wasn't coming, but that'sexactly it.
Variety, yeah.
Variety and the work that I wasinvolved in, there's so many
different situations that you'reputting yourself in or being
thrown into that.
Yeah, they, they were engagingand mundane wasn't a word that
was within my world at thatpoint at all, which was a great
thing.
And I was picking up on that.
(17:40):
I was really realizing that thatwas something that I was drawn
towards, was not having that atall.
Danu Poyner (17:45):
I think I wanna ask you just about professional
purpose and just come back tothat because it's so central to
the conversation we're having.
You pitch'life as a...' toparents, educators, and career
guidance professionals as aprogram that might be the spark,
which helps someone find theirprofessional purpose.
Given that we understand yourstory a little bit better, how
(18:05):
do you think about your ownprofessional purpose?
How would you describe it?
And also what is a professionalpurpose?
How do you know when when you'vefound one?
Christopher Schoenwald (18:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, in terms of justprofessional purpose, I think
the way I like to, to look at ithere is just having that
direction within life, you know?
And obviously that ties into tothe work that you're doing.
The amount of hours that we'redevoting to our careers, like
depending on the research thatyou're looking at, it's anywhere
between well, 10 years to 13years roughly.
(18:35):
That's a lot of time obviouslyto be devoting to something, to
one thing, comparativelyspeaking, I mean, the amount of
time that we devote to familyand friends, I think the
research I'd seen was like 369days total in our lives across
our lifetime.
So obviously, like the amountthat we're putting into our
careers, you know, you wanna getthat right or you wanna you
(18:56):
wanna be doing something that ismeaningful to you.
even if you're jumping around alittle bit, you know, even five,
six careers perhaps, that'sstill a lot of time.
You're, you're looking at maybethree, four years if you're
switching careers.
So having that reason for being,and there's a term here, I mean,
we see it all the time in thecorporate world, you, you see it
bandied about, but Ikigai right,the reason for being right?
Danu Poyner (19:19):
Yeah.
I wanted to ask you about Ikigaibecause it's one of those terms
you do see bandied around a bit,and I'm not sure whether it's
tethered to its cultural rootsor not, or whether it's become
one of those, corporate things.
You, you seem like a good personto ask, having been in
Christopher Schoenwald (19:35):
Japan.
Well, I mean, having itoriginated out of Japan and, and
seeing it within the culturehere, I believe it is something
that's real, at least withinthis culture.
It involves having this sense ofpurpose in terms of what you're
intrinsically motiv ated to doand also involves elements of
curiosity, a willingness tolearn, not.
being told, you have to studythis, you need this knowledge.
(19:57):
Like you want to explore it.
You, you really just wanna knowas much as you can about it.
You know, just a general senseof enthusiasm towards what
you're doing.
We have moments of struggle.
But when you have those momentsof struggle, if you have this
purpose within your life, itgives you that extra little
something to dig down a littlebit further and to find your way
(20:18):
out of these problems that arebeing presented to you.
that's a good way of knowing ifyou have this purpose within
your life.
And I think the opposite istrue, I mean, if you don't have
that natural inclination towardslearning more about what you're
involved in or you're notintrinsically motivated by it
all.
Maybe that's a sign, we all havedays where it feels like, oh no,
(20:38):
this isn't right.
But if this is like every singleday for six months for a year or
something, that might be a signfor you.
That's what purpose is to me, Ithink, the professional purpose,
I suppose.
The bleed over from theprofessional into the personal
as well.
Your levels of fulfillment thatare being derived from the work
itself itself and how that'saffecting you, like your outlook
(21:00):
on life and everything else andthe world around you.
And generally I'd say like ifyou're feeling mostly mostly
good about things, there'sprobably a good chance that
that's tied into the work thatyou're doing, right?
And the opposite is true.
I mean, if you're not feeling sosatisfied with life in general,
Again, based off of those stats,the amount of time that you're
devoting to work, there'sprobably a big rub off, from
(21:22):
that realm coming into playhere.
I like this idea of hopefullyproviding this resource that's
going to get somebody closer tofinding that, you know, that's a
really powerful thought.
I'm not naive enough to thinkthat everyone who listens to
this program is going to findit, but maybe they listen to
somebody within a particularindustry and it sparks an idea.
(21:44):
Maybe it's not a profession thatI've covered just yet, but it
inspires somebody to digfurther.
Like, whoa, this area issomething that I'm interested
in.
And then they go out and theyfind a little bit more
information about the industryitself and then some of the
different options in thatindustry, and it sets'em on a
path and maybe they discover itor maybe they are fortunate
enough where they are listeningto an episode and there is this
(22:07):
one profession that just catches'em.
There's a story there.
There's something that's sharedthat absolutely inspires them,
and they dig into it and they goall the way, and who knows,
maybe they end up doing this forthe next 20, 30 years.
that thought is absolutelyexhilarating.
Again, it traces back to thislife and living thing, like what
kind of impact does that have onsomebody's life?
And, and having that purpose andhaving that mission and feeling
(22:30):
good about it.
These are things that I wantedwithin my own life and I, I know
the other side of it of nothaving that.
Creating that opportunity or atleast getting somebody closer to
maybe finding that, I love it.
I just absolutely love thatthought.
So that's kind of my purpose orwhat has been my purpose in
starting this show?
Danu Poyner (22:48):
it's very palpable, the sense of enjoyment and
meaningfulness for you in thework that you're doing.
And the service that it does asa body of work overall is very
impressive.
I found the entrepreneur onesvery inspiring and relatable
and, and resonant.
But I also really enjoyedacademic people that you talk
to.
'cause that's a world I've spenta lot of time around and I've
(23:09):
been now consciously steppingaway from.
But it kind of refreshed myrespect and admiration for that
profession, by listening to someof the people talk about the
meaningfulness of it for them.
So I do want to linger more onthe bleed over, as you put it,
between the professional and thepersonal, both in terms of how
you construct the show and alsoin yourself.
(23:33):
There's a, a saying that someonesaid to me once that I haven't
been able to get out of my mindsince, which is a profession
ends on the day that you retire,but a practice ends on the day
you die.
That's really interesting to mebecause it raises the question
of whether the meaningfulnessand the purpose is located in
the profession and it'ssomething you are drawn to and
(23:56):
you find in the work or whetherany work will draw out the
intrinsic purpose and directionthat you have.
I wonder if you have aperspective on that.
Christopher Schoenwald (24:08):
Ooh, that's a, that's a deep question
there, Danu Yeah.
You got me thinking here.
The purpose for being and whothey are, it definitely connects
up to the work that they'reinvolved in and I think like the
elements of what pull them intothat professional world, maybe
again, we're, we're goingtowards these notions of
curiosity and wanting to learnmore about the world, wanting to
(24:32):
learn more about everythingaround them.
Those are elements that tie into any profession really.
Like, you're, you're alwaysgrowing.
Within anything that you'redoing, the moment you stop, you
know, that's when things die.
That's when things fade out, andthat's when careers probably
fade out.
But I don't know, like, I mean,I've spoken to so many different
types of people on this program,and I get the sneaky suspicion
that a lot of these people, ifthey were allowed to, if their
(24:54):
company's allowed, if, ifthey're not entrepreneurs
themselves and they'reprofessionally working for
someone else, like they wouldcontinue on for as long as they
could.
Really, like I just had thisguest on not too long ago.
She's a, a sake professional,and she discovered this career
basically by her intenseinterest for this product.
She just was driven to learnmore and more about it.
(25:16):
And eventually a career amountedout of this interest.
But when she reaches that pointin her life where maybe the
professional world, she doesn'tneed to be doing it anymore,
she's reaching that point of reretiring.
Like, maybe by then, who knows?
Erin just might have changed.
But like the way she spoke to meabout like that intense
curiosity towards that world andtowards the learning and, and,
(25:38):
and everything that's involvedin it, I cannot imagine somebody
like her just hanging things upand just stopping.
And then there's been so manyother types of guests as well.
Again, maybe stepping into theworld of entrepreneurship who
are passionate about aparticular idea or they have
this mission in life that Ican't imagine is just going to
stop when they reach this pointof like, well, this is the age
(25:58):
that which society says that Ineed to stop doing this.
You know, I've reached 66 5,whatever it is.
Okay, I'm just gonna give up onall of this.
I, I, I just can't see thathappening.
Their professional world becomeswho they are as a person.
To just stop that would be forthem to stop being who they are,
you know, fundamentallyspeaking.
Danu Poyner (26:19):
what is the name that you give to your profession
these days?
Christopher Schoenwald (26:24):
Hmm.
I mean, in the simplest terms,I'm just like a host, right?
I a host of this program orlike, but like if you're, I was
gonna dig into a little bitfurther maybe, a guide of sorts,
a career sherpa if I really wantto be creative here.
Danu Poyner (26:36):
Career Sherpa.
I like That a lot.
But it goes to the question of,you know, what's your
relationship to the workcurrently?
this show that you do is soclearly, a labor of love for
you.
I can tell in, in the way thatyou speak about it, but also
you're very careful in thepromotional language.
for it to put a lot of emphasison the value that it has for
(26:58):
different audiences, and how itcan be a useful resource for
them, as you say.
So I'm just interested in thatinterplay between the value for
others and the creativefulfillment that it gives you as
a kind of exploration and whatwould happen if if for some
reason you had to stop doing itand you couldn't do it anymore,
what would you do?
Christopher Schoenwald (27:18):
In terms of what it offers to me.
Yeah.
I mean, it, it, it's endlessExploration is what it is for
me.
I'm tapping into worlds that Iwould never get to know, get to
understand, and I remember whenI was considering this program
and considering what I wanted.
At that point, I knew I wasdriven by this notion of
(27:39):
curiosity.
I wanted to learn more and I wastrying to figure out ways of
doing so, and this program wasborn outta the pandemic, so that
maybe there's like that feelingof isolation as well.
where I'm based within WesternJapan, I'm not within a big city
anymore.
It's a town of 50,000 people.
It's absolutely gorgeous.
It's beautiful.
But during the pandemic, weweren't locked down here, but
things were not opennecessarily.
(28:00):
And I certainly wasn't travelingback to Canada, seeing friends
and family there, and even thefriends that I had, you know,
within this region, you weren'tmeeting them.
So I was looking for some degreeof connection there.
And I thought too, like, well,maybe this program and this
stuff is tossing around in mymind of life as a would be a
neat opportunity to explorethese worlds while still.
You know, never really leavingleaving my home, right?
(28:22):
Like I'm stepping into theirworld.
If I can construct it in such away and ask the right kind of
questions, I can be immersingmyself into their world, even
just for an hour for 45 minutes.
And how exhilarating would thatbe?
From a standpoint of being alittle bit selfish there and,
and exploring that, but thenalso providing this other
element to other people, you'reright.
I mean, that was part of mythought process from the get go.
(28:44):
And I was hoping that just maybeothers might even find value in
that as well.
Maybe they're not looking fortheir next career necessarily
but they wanna break from theirown reality, you know, and they
just wanna step into somebodyelse's world and hear what
they're going through,'causeoftentimes there is this thread
that kind of runs through thewhole common human experience
There's commonality no matterwhat you're doing professionally
(29:08):
speaking, that we can all sortof relate on some level.
So I was hoping as well thatthat might be a nice break for
people from this crazy worldthat we're living wIthin.
Danu Poyner (29:17):
I'm glad you framed it that way, Christopher and as
someone who also sees lots andlots of options and and
potential to do different thingsand is burdened by the knowledge
that you can't do everything inlife, but you still want to.
My way of solving thatpersonally has been to do
something similar and that you,you step into other people's
worlds for a little bit at atime, and you get to kind of
(29:40):
have a vicarious enjoyment andhopefully paint a, a picture
that might be useful to othersalong the way.
But I also was interested tohear the deeper theme in the
work there.
it's more than just theprofession itself.
You're inviting people to stepinto an imaginative space that
you're facilitating where theycan, uh, through seeing mirrors
(30:02):
reflected, they can become moreaccurate reflections of
themselves in a way.
Christopher Schoenwald (30:07):
it is a bit of a selfish endeavor
though, as well, you know, like,I, I derive so much from doing
it as well and hearing thesepeople speak and.
It's like front row in some ofthese performances in a sense,
like I'm hearing these storiesfirsthand sometimes, you know,
people share things for the veryfirst time or maybe they told
this story a million times over,but it's the first time for me,
it's the first time forlisteners.
(30:28):
You've had moments where guestshave been so moved by experience
and they're relating thatexperience.
the way they share that, youknow, the moments of elation,
the moments of triumph, themoments of difficulty or
heartache, and they share someof these feelings.
And how can you not be moved bythat?
When you're hearing this, thisthis powerful story that's
(30:49):
coming across in such a way thathas impacted this person's life
and their, their views on lifeand where they're at, where
they'd like to go.
It's hard not to be moved bythat.
And I, I swear, like each andevery episode I come away from
after the recording, I'm, I'mjust like buzzing over what was
said, the story or, or thisviewpoint on something that I'd
(31:10):
never, ever considered.
I feel as though my world opensup a little bit more every
single time that I speak tosomebody.
I'll have conversations with myolder daughter who's 10, going
to be 11 soon, and she'sapproaching that age of
maturity, I suppose, where sheknows her, her place in the
world, at least right now, andwhere her world could be going
down the line.
in the future, yes, you aregonna have to make some
(31:31):
decisions, certainly not now,but within the next four or 5,
6, 7 years at least.
Trying to figure out what, whatdrives you, what motivates you.
And it's an absolute pleasure tobe able to speak with her about
some of the guests that I havein my program.
I know for her and a lot ofother kids at her age, like you
have those standard handful ofjobs, you know, you could be a
(31:53):
doctor, you could be a nurse,you could be a police officer, a
veterinarian, like those six or7, 8, 9, 10 jobs or whatever
that everyone thinks of whenthey're a kid, right?
But I have these reallyinteresting conversations with
her where then it piques hercuriosity and she'll ask me a
little bit more.
So it becomes something elsewhere like, yes, we're speaking
about the program and some ofthe guests, and I put it down to
(32:14):
a level of course where she canunderstand, but then it becomes
a point of connection for herand I and our relationship as a
father and daughter.
And, and that's special to me aswell.
She'll dig in and she'llresearch that person, that
guest, a bit further.
And yeah.
You, you know, you're having animpact.
Danu Poyner (32:29):
Just showing people what there is and the
possibilities is something thatreally, really sticks out to me.
I'm thinking of my dad, whospent a lot of time, like his
professional career was inaccounting, which is not
something that he wanted to do.
He wanted to be like a member ofthe Beatles.
I think he's 70 something andstill deciding what he wants to
(32:51):
be when he grows up.
But, he always tells the storyof how at the high school, he
went to the guidance counselorand they had this literally the
list of six things that you canbe, and, uh, he said he liked
filling in forms, so he pickedaccounting and then there you
go.
Then that's decades of of yourlife.
Christopher Schoenwald (33:07):
there it is.
Right.
I know, I know.
That's, that's almost liketerrifying to me, you know, in,
in a way.
And I don't know how muchfurther we progressed in that
area.
Certainly there's differentquestionnaires obviously and
whatnot like that, that aresupposedly there to help guide
students to find possible careeroptions for them.
(33:28):
And I think there may be alittle bit more evolved now, so
it does lead you to, you know,some other, Fields of study
perhaps but at the same time,like how limiting are those too?
I in this job market now you'rehaving new professions popping
up all the time and how up todate are some of these software
programs that are being used tolike generate options for
students?
(33:48):
Within the US generally theavailability of career
counselors for students is likeone career counselor per, I
think in one of the best statesmight be 70 some students in
some of the worst states inAmerica, one career counselor
per two to 300 students.
How many opportunities do peoplehave to really speak with a
professional about thesedifferent options?
(34:09):
What area to study withincollege or university and, and
the amount of financialresources that go towards these
things as well.
And if you don't really give alot of thought towards that or
you're not really sure, youcould be, you know, setting
yourself back a little bit.
that's acknowledging that a lotof us still have squiggly
careers and, have trouble.
Or we, we have these windy pastultimately finding what we like,
(34:30):
but if we can kind of like ironout some of those wrinkles along
the way and, and, you know, easethat burden of maybe getting a
little bit closer to that targetsooner, I think there's value in
that.
And that's, yeah, part of mymission here too.
Danu Poyner (34:44):
Now that you've done a hundred episodes, I'm
curious what you have learnedabout life and living from doing
all those interviews and whatyou've learned about work.
Christopher Schoenwald (34:54):
Yeah.
I mean, it's still ongoing, Iwould say, but there's a few
things, a few themes that comeup.
I think having variety within acareer, within life is, is
certainly a good thing.
You know, the mundane is adanger point for a lot of
people.
Not for everyone, certainly, butfor a lot of people.
And if you're noticing thatwithin your life, maybe that's
something you, you wanna beaware of uh, if you can imagine
(35:16):
yourself doing something overand over and over again, what
kind of feeling that wouldgenerate, you know, maybe it's a
good thing, maybe
Danu Poyner (35:21):
It.
This is
Christopher Schoenwald (35:22):
but
Danu Poyner (35:23):
Customs in Immigration thing.
Christopher Schoenwald (35:24):
Yeah, exactly.
There's several other types ofwork that's out there too, but
like from the people I've spokenwith, the amount of variety is,
is a key point for them.
other things as well.
I mean, failure, this notion offailure along the way.
Every single person I've spokento on this program has failed.
we have these images of, ofcertain people that Oh, surely,
you know, that person was justlike on this straight line up
(35:46):
right from the get go, rightwhen they, you know, started
this, that journey.
Well, the reality of it is sofar from that, you know, they,
they failed along the way, justas you and I have.
I think maybe how they handleit, how they frame their
failures is what determines howthey pick themselves up and, and
get on with things.
How they find success later on,how they learn from it.
(36:07):
That's always a, a theme thatcomes up in the program as well.
I find a lot of the people thatare finding success within their
careers are really keyed in onjust learning more about not
only themselves, what, whatdrives them, but then also the
work that they're doing.
How can they continually learnabout more about where that job
(36:27):
is going, how theresponsibilities are evolving
within that profession, and justthe, the eagerness towards all
of that.
I think that's a big part ofhaving fulfillment, having
mission, having this drive tosucceed.
I think work is part of thishuman experience.
You know, it's funny, like we,uh, within society might have
this vision of like, okay, I'mgonna work until I retire, and
(36:49):
then my life begins.
Then the fun begins, you know?
Maybe I'm, I'm not getting likethis completely representative
look at the workforce.
'cause the people that want tospeak about their careers are
people that are generallypassionate about what they do.
I acknowledge that, but at thesame time, like these people, at
least they are driveninternally.
(37:11):
And, and I can't imagine most ofthese people just turning off,
you know, maybe theirprofessional responsibilities
end, but some of the elements ofwhat made them successful within
their careers are going tocontinue on.
Maybe they're just gonna sinkthose feelings and emotions into
something else or somethingsimilar.
Or maybe they're gonna go into anonprofit perhaps.
Like I can envision a lot of thepeople that I've had on that are
(37:33):
still gonna wanna contribute insome way.
And I think that's a, a reallybig portion of, you know, this
life and living experience aswell.
That's really important.
And just a few of the themesthat I've picked up on along the
way.
Danu Poyner (37:44):
Yeah, you really get a sketch of a certain kind
of way of being in the worldlistening to that.
that makes me wanna ask youabout the term grokkist, because
that's one of the reasons thatwe're here.
These are people who have aorientation to the world that's
most deeply anchored incuriosity and care.
(38:05):
And that eagerness, um, as anice, nice way of putting it
that you put to show up notalways in that kind of straight
line, success achievement in, ina material way, but just in a
standards of self, uh, in, inthe way that you show up and
that thirst for new experienceand understanding and to just
drink it all in.
Those are the people I callgrokkists.
(38:27):
is that a, a term that resonateswith you at all?
Christopher Schoenw (38:30):
absolutely.
The way you just laid it outthere, I feel like that's
somebody that maybe I've come tobe.
Maybe I, maybe I wasn't thatalways.
Perhaps and you know, maybeit's, it's part of a progression
for, for a lot of people, but atleast for me, I, I would say
that that fits, reach a certainpoint where your own maturity,
maybe when you're younger, likepart of a career and what that
(38:51):
represents is the material, youknow, and like, oh, you, you
need the big salary so you canget this, this, and this.
And then the further you getalong within your career, the
further that that you age andyou gain this sense of maturity
of what's important, you realizethat that shouldn't be the goal.
That isn't the goal necessarily.
Sure.
It's not a terrible thing if itcomes along, you know, with
(39:12):
everything else, but it's, it'sthis fulfillment, and finding
that drive, finding thatpurpose.
I think it's a big part of it,of experience of life, of having
this life well lived.
Danu Poyner (39:23):
That makes me want to ask, about you and your
journey.
You, you mentioned earlier thatyou were hoping you would still
have the same passion for whatyou're doing in seven years
time, so I'm curious if you'vethought about that and, and what
you think that the life as aand, and the ecosystem around it
might look like in that amountof time.
If you still do have the passionfor it,
Christopher Schoenwald (39:45):
Well, I hope so.
I hope so.
we're fast approaching two yearsof, of having this program going
and my vision for it from thebeginning is, is changed a
little bit along the way.
I think in the beginning it wasmore of this break from reality
for people to kind of step intoa different world.
I think at that point it wasjust like, just creating a
podcast, you know, as simple as,as that, you know, for people.
(40:05):
And then also too to kind ofserve the needs of, of youth
perhaps.
It was just really broad innature and I realized that
probably at some point along theway it would narrow down,
whether it was by choice or byby circumstance.
I recognize the fact that noteveryone is going to be as
curiously minded as myself ormaybe even you Danu, or, or
other people like us, perhapsand I think that's what's come
(40:27):
along is like, my listenershiphas been solid, you know, I'd
say from start to finish, but atthe same time, I don't see it
like for just people who alreadyhave careers, that are just
looking to step into a differentworld.
Like I think that's such a smallsegment of the population that
in terms of growing out thisprogram and, you know, making a
living off of it, you need alittle bit more and you need,
(40:49):
like you said, ecosystem, youneed to be able, the ecosystem
around it.
But fortunately, one of theother ideas that I did have and
I just mentioned earlier, waslike, youth and, and aiming this
program towards youth, highschool students even to
university age students as well.
But, but mainly I would say highschool students.
My vision for it would be nowthat I'm approaching this point
of having a, a content library,you know, basically that's what
(41:10):
it's becoming a hundred episodesand continually adding to that
is I think now that I can startapproaching boards of education,
school districts, those types ofassociations, nonprofits as
well, you know, big brothers,big sisters, at least within
North America.
Having it as a program whereeducators can use it as a
resource, you know, plug it intotheir existing system or use it
(41:33):
as a standalone for students togo through an eight week
program, 10, 12 week, whateverit might be.
Or maybe it's a yearly programwhere they're exploring a new
career and there's, there'sactivities tied into this that
aim to elicit their feelingsabout where they would like to
go in life, maybe to kind oflike, experiment with it.
And, I don't know if they havea, this certain hypothesis about
(41:54):
what this job is all about orwhat it could mean for them.
My vision for it is, is for itto become that something bigger,
and ultimately, if it reachesthat stage, well then, like it
is delivering on scale at thatpoint.
When I think about what thatcould mean for me personally, in
a selfish way, that is, like,that's a impacting a lot of
(42:16):
people's lives in a positiveway.
if it reaches that, like, I, I,I couldn't be happier.
that would be the ultimate thingright there.
I Feel good about contributingto the world in a positive way,
and having a lot of positiveoutcomes for a number of
different people
Danu Poyner (42:31):
sure.
I'd be surprised if it takes youseven years to get there.
I do wish you the best withthat.
And, and related to it, whatwould you most like to be known
for or known as?
I guess
Christopher Schoenwald (42:45):
Well, I guess kind of connecting up to
that as somebody who had apositive impact on others, that,
that cared enough to, to dothese types of things and
somebody who is respectful ofothers and, and trying to serve
their needs as much as possible.
Danu Poyner (42:58):
I am still thinking about the phrase career Sherpa
that you said.
I don't know whether that wasjust improvised or not, but as
we've been talking, I've beenthinking about it more and
thinking this is, this is agreat metaphor because you are
traversing the same terrain overand over and over again, and
there's a lot of similarity inthe conversations that you have.
But the meaning, uh, and thevalue in it is in the person
(43:21):
that you meet and therelationship you have.
And each journey across thatsame terrain is unique and
special because of therelationship.
So I, I really like it
Christopher Schoenwald (43:31):
well, may maybe I need a rebrand,
Danu Poyner (43:34):
who knows but anyway, in the moment, it
sounded good to me and, uh, andI like it there's a question I
ask everyone who comes on, theshow, and that is, if you could
gift someone a life changinglearning experience, what would
it be and why?
Christopher Schoenwald (43:49):
yeah, yeah.
I really like this question.
I think it would be a life livedabroad, at least for a year and
a minimum a year's time.
And I think the reasons forthat, it just forces you to step
out of your own world, your ownworldviews, the way that you
interpret the world.
It just challenges your ownideas of what's right, what's
(44:11):
wrong, you know?
And I think a lot of people havebeen quoted as saying, I mean, a
lot of the world troubles thatwe have right now would be
solved if we just had like theseprograms set up where everyone
could experience another cultureat least once within their life,
not just like buy the internetor even a conversation on the
internet, but literally steppinginto a different world, you
know, breathing in the air of adifferent region of the world
(44:33):
and all of that, what thatrepresents, it'd be a lot easier
for people to, to find a commonground.
Which oftentimes is, is whattroubles us the most these days,
it would seem.
That would be something that,again, speaking of my own
experiences as of living abroadand now, my ability to look at
my own culture and, and elementsthat I like and elements that I
(44:53):
don't like, and, and, andchallenging some of those
thoughts, some of those ideasand finding bits and pieces of
another culture that I findreally appealing and great, and
some things that I don't, but atleast having these ideas that
the world is so unique.
It is so distinct that justslipping into one mindset or one
worldview, it's, it's adangerous thing, you know?
(45:13):
And if you can sort of like givethat opportunity to somebody to
understand that there's so muchmore out there that that's
powerful
Danu Poyner (45:20):
Definitely.
Put yourself experientially in adifferent situation for a good
amount of time, you are forcedto realize that a lot of the
things that you take for grantedor you haven't thought about,
can be different.
Things can be different thanyou're used to them being.
And that possibility raises theidea that you can change and
(45:42):
that there are alternatives.
And that if you wanna step intothat sense of possibility
consciously, then we don't needto be so attached to the things
that we deeply hold or that wejust haven't thought about.
And that there's a lot of hopein that thought, I think, for me
at least.
I do detect that kind of theme alittle bit in, in the work that
you're doing, this theme ofmoving past the level of
(46:07):
tribalism in our publicdiscourse, it comes up in some
of your interviews where peoplelocked into their viewpoints and
talking past each other a lot.
with your show, one of thethings you're doing is providing
different perspectives andviewpoints.
How conscious, uh, a deepermission is that as part of your
work.
Christopher Schoenwald (46:25):
I never really considered that, to be
honest, until you just sort ofraised that point.
But I think the program itselfand the way I envisioned it, and
in my own personality, my ownstamp on it, is I like to be
respectful of each and everyperson that I meet and certainly
every guest that I have on theprogram.
the focus of the show isn't tobe debating big ideas within the
world necessarily.
(46:46):
Like I just want to exposepeople to different lives,
different ideas.
Fortunately, you know, like thetypes of subject matter that
come up on the show aren'tdeeply controversial, I would
say, either.
So like, you know, it doesn'tprod me into a discussion or a
debate either.
But at the same time, like I dolike the idea of letting people
(47:06):
speak and I'm not the type ofhost where I I'm interjecting
all the time or trying tointerrupt.
I like to let that person getout what they have to say.
in a way, I think that sort ofaccomplishes what you're
speaking of is, is you're givingsomebody a voice, you know that
they feel safe enough, thatthey're gonna be heard, that
they can get out, they canexpress the way that they want
(47:27):
to express.
And I think that's a reallyimportant element.
Whereas, you know, sometimeswithin other mediums or you
know, within culture as a whole,We're so quick to jump on
somebody the moment they saythere's a trigger word or a
trigger phrase that, you couldgo after.
I never wanted the program to beabout anything like that.
It comes down to listening,right?
If you can better understand whothat person is, what their
(47:50):
experiences were or all about,you might have a better handle
on why they think a certain way.
powerful and I think that'sreally meaningful as well.
I I do subconsciously, Isuppose, maybe build that into
the program and maybe thatreflects my personality as well
and the way I wanna interactwith people.
Danu Poyner (48:08):
that's a very good answer.
I just wanted to offer as a bodyof work, as a content library,
as you put it, that hopefulworldview is quite apparent when
you step back and look at it asa whole body of work.
So I just wanted to offer thatthought to you.
Christopher Schoenwald (48:23):
No, thank you.
Yeah, that's great to hear.
You know, it's interesting tohave these types of
conversations because I feel I'mlearning that much more about
this program in speaking withyou Danu and like your
observations of it and what itmeans and how it could be
interpreted, and it's been sucha really valuable experience on
that side of things, you know,
Danu Poyner (48:39):
Oh, thank you Christopher.
Is there anything you'd like totalk about that we haven't
covered today?
Christopher Schoenwald (48:46):
One thing I'd like to leave with
people is that again, where,where this program is and where
I'm going with it, it's stillvery early stages and I am right
now just beginning to work witheducators on building out a
progrqm that is, you know,career-minded, career resource
minded for students, particularhigh school students.
(49:06):
And we're looking for, you know,schools themselves, pilot
programs to set up an eight to10 week program to allow
students to kind of interactwith the content, to have extra
resources and, uh, to kind ofgauge, you know, what kind of
impact this could have.
So, if there's any of yourlisteners, I'm not sure where
they're coming from exactly, butif there's anyone, whoever has
an interest in this, maybethey're within education or
(49:26):
would like to learn more aboutmaybe setting something up, I'd
be all ears for that so I've gota website, like as a.com, you
can find me on, uh, most of themajor social platforms like
Instagram or Facebook orLinkedIn.
Danu Poyner (49:40):
Yeah, thanks.
very much for that.
We will, of course, put all ofthe links to everything in the
show notes and do check out theshow if you haven't already.
It's been a great pleasurespeaking to you, uh,
Christopher.
I really enjoyed it.
I've learned a lot about whatI'm doing as well,
Christopher Schoenwald (49:56):
Well, thank you.
Yeah, it's been an absolutepleasure and I really enjoy
your, your podcast as well here.
I think that the types of gueststhat you've had and the types of
discussions that, that you'reable to elicit really, really
intriguing, really interesting.
And, uh, I certainly enjoy themas well.
So thank you for, for having meon.
It's been an honor.
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