Listening with the heart: how the wisdom of plants helps us remember our connection to the divine - Amanda Nicole | S3E8

Amanda is a liriodendress, a human embodiment of the tulip poplar tree. We discuss her journey of reconnecting with nature, listening to the wisdom of plants, and exploring alternative ways of knowing in her pursuit of heart-centred living.

Episode Summary

• Raised in a conservative Baptist church, Amanda always felt the divinity in the world but questioned the disconnect between the teachings of the church and her own experiences.
• After experiencing miscarriages and feeling unheard by medical professionals and her preacher husband, Amanda found healing and strength through acupuncture and connecting with plants, which led to a disruptive divorce and ex-communication from her church community.
• Amanda explored alternative ways of knowing and being, including herbalism, and discovered the transformative power of listening and dissolving the distinction between human and non-human.
• Through her work as an author, podcast host, and artist, Amanda shares her heart-centred offerings and messages to help others remember their connection to the divine and the interconnectedness of all living beings.

Key Themes

• Challenging the systems and structures that don't resonate with our hearts
• The transformative power of listening and the importance of being heard
• Reconnecting with nature and dissolving the distinction between human and non-human

Full Show Notes
Visit the Grokkist podcast hub for a full digest of this episode including highlights and links to stuff we discussed: https://grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast/s3e8-amanda-nicole

Recorded 29 August 2023

Website: grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast | Email: [e-mail] | Socials: @grokkist
Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon

Episode Transcript

Amanda Nicole (00:00):
If you have a miscarriage, lot of people don't

(00:02):
even think there's a soul or alife or a baby there.
It was just this invisiblehappening that most people
couldn't connect with.
People thought, you have threekids.
Why are you sad?
No one had ever listened to me.
And no one was believinganything I said about what I
thought was going on with mybody All the appointments were
10 minutes if that, and theydidn't hear a word I said.

(00:24):
And that's why I loved theacupuncturist.
There are people we meet thatare life changing.
My first session with her wasalmost two hours.
She just let me say everything Ineeded to say about every single
miscarriage and how they'dhappened.
When I finished she put her pendown and she looked at me and
she said, Someone should havebeen taking care of you.

(00:46):
I can help you.
In that moment, the healingstarted because she heard me,
she cared.
By being heard, she strengthenedmy voice.
That was the change that openedthe portal for me to the plants
and other ways of knowing andbeing.
And it was the beginning of myexit from the previous life.

(01:07):
I just didn't know it at thetime.
You're listening to the StillCurious Podcast with me, Danu
Poyner.
The show is dedicated toexploring the lives of people
whose most sincere orientationto the world is curiosity.
and care.
The people I refer to asgrokkist.

(01:28):
In each episode, I set out toconnect with the unrepeatable
person who is emerging from theplace where history meets
biography.
My conversation partner today isAmanda.
Nicole who describes herself asa Leary or dangerous.
That is a human embodiment ofthe tulip Poplar tree.
Amanda grew up in a conservativeBaptist church in the mountains

(01:50):
of Appalachia.
As a girl, she went to churchevery Sunday morning, Sunday
night, and every Wednesday nightto.
As a mum put it.
If the church doors are open,we're going to be there.
And Amanda didn't needpersuading to pursue a
relationship with God and thedivine.
She had always felt there wasdivinity in the world and that
she was connected to it.

(02:11):
So little Amanda was veryfocused on being good because
being good was what helped youto be with God.
But she had a lot of questions,especially about the parts of
the church's teaching that toldher she was separate to God.
I was having trouble reconciling this idea
that God is love with the anger,and the destruction and the

(02:33):
hate.
What I was told repeatedly whenI was small was that the purpose
was to break my will.
And they did, in large part,they did break my will.
And it's why I did such a goodjob for so long, and I think
it's why it was so disruptivewhen I changed my mind.
Amanda felt her life had beenplanned out for her.

(02:55):
She was dreamy and hadaspirations of being a writer
and did study literature, butthis was too off-brand.
And so she ended up marrying apreacher and settling into the
life.
She describes as a kind ofcookie cutter existence.
After three healthy pregnancies,she began to miscarry, not once,
but four times.

(03:16):
This led Amanda to theacupuncturist you heard about at
the beginning.
Which opened up alternate waysof healing, knowing, and being.
And so Amanda meandered into thewoods where she began speaking
to trees and other benevolentnature beings, listening to the
wisdom of plants and realizingthat they were communicating the

(03:37):
voice of the divine.
I will start to feel a physical, almost
energetic sensation in my heartspace and I can feel it.
It starts to make it where it'shard for me to talk.
It's as if all of my attentionand knowing and consciousness is

(03:58):
being directed to my heartspace.
And that's how I know that thetree is saying, yes, I'll talk
to you.
Amanda started to studyherbalism.
And became briefly involved inour Christian herbalists group.
Before being kicked out afterasking a question about
communication with plants.
They called me a creature worshiper and they

(04:19):
tossed around words like paganand witch.
I felt like my experiences withthe plants actually brought me
closer to God and to the divine.
So I told them that I thoughttheir God was small
With her voice strengthened.
This was a threshold moment.
Then came a sudden anddisruptive divorce that Amanda

(04:41):
found out about by email.
And after that, there was noturning back.
I feel that the systems that I had been a part
of, and that exist in this worldas a human collective, are full
of bondage and fear andnecessity and an emphasis on the
head rather than the heart.
I decided I'm going to pursuesomething different and I'm

(05:06):
going create somethingdifferent.
And with that divorce, a lot oftimes you're just trying to
survive.
And I said to a friend of mineduring that time, I'm not
interested in just surviving.
I want to create a life.
The life Amanda has sincecreated is about sharing
verdant, heart centeredofferings.
Using plant communication andmedicine to help people remember

(05:28):
they are loved and part ofsomething larger.
She did become a writer and isthe author of flowers for a girl
plant medicine and sexualtrauma.
She's also the human voice orpodcast called whispers plant
spirit medicine.
My background and Amanda's couldhardly be more different.

(05:48):
I grew up in a non-religioushousehold have spent most of my
professional career accustomedto the starting assumptions of
scientific and technologicalrationalism.
And perhaps most importantly, Ilived a large part of my early
life, almost entirely in myhead.
And if affliction, from which insome ways I'm still recovering.

(06:09):
All of which to say this was avery interesting and unusual
conversation for me, butultimately a joyous, humbling
and affirming one.
In which we bonded over theproblems of institutions that
have a way of obscuring andsuffocating, the very things
they are supposed to represent.
We also shared a deepappreciation for the sacred

(06:32):
practice of listening.
And I learned something ofpersonal and spiritual
importance through communicatingwith a blueberry.
Please enjoy all this and morein a very special conversation
with Amanda Nicole coming upafter the music on today's
episode of the Still CuriousPodcast.

Danu Poyner (07:17):
Hi Amanda.
Welcome to the podcast.
How are you?

Amanda Nicole (07:21):
I'm doing well.

Danu Poyner (07:22):
I've been looking forward to talking to you for a
while.
you describe yourself as aliriodendress, a human
embodiment of the Tulip Poplartree, and you began your human
incarnation in the mountains andchurch pews of Appalachia.
After studying literature andmarrying a preacher, you
meandered into the woods whereyou began speaking to trees and

(07:43):
other benevolent nature beings.
You're the author of'Flowers fora Girl, Plant Medicine and
Sexual Trauma', and you're alsothe human voice of a podcast

called,'Whispers (07:52):
Plant Spirit Medicine'.
And you have a website, whereyou share your verdant,
heart-centered offerings andmessages.
That's a very intriguingintroduction and before we start
to unpack it, what would you sayis the most important thing for
someone to understand about whatyou do?

Amanda Nicole (08:10):
From the bio, I would say the aspect of the
liriodendress.
It's a label that came intobeing because I was constantly
having to write bios and Iwasn't sure, how do I tell
people who I am and what I do.
I'm an author, I'm a mother, I'ma teacher, I'm an herbalist.
And it just wasn't capturing, Ifelt, my essence and who I am,

(08:31):
and so the lireodendress was theterm that came into being, and
that term makes me happy.
When I write that, I feel thatpeople are receiving an accurate
description of who I am, of myessence, even if they don't know
what the term means yet.
And then it usually occasionspeople to ask, what is that?

(08:52):
Then the unpacking of it, youknow, allows me to expand and
tell my story because bios canbe very limiting.

Danu Poyner (08:59):
As someone who is having to update my bio for the
first time in a while, I amgrappling with this myself and
trying to express everything,which is, I guess, what the term
Grokkist is about for me.
So yes, it's certainly a termthat invites conversation and
curiosity.
I like that very much.
The thought that really made merealize we should do the podcast

(09:20):
was something you said like, uh,the systems and structures
around us don't resonate withour heart, so many of us are
trying to build something ondifferent foundations.
Would you like to unspool thatthought and where it comes from?

Amanda Nicole (09:34):
Yeah, I would not have been able to articulate
that thought until recently,until the last maybe five or six
years, because I experienced avery sudden and disruptive
divorce and the nature of it wassuch that everything crumbled.

(09:55):
I didn't have the home that Ihad.
I almost didn't have mychildren.
I lost my family of origin, mychurch and social community.
And that happened when I was astay at home homeschooling mom
of six.

(10:15):
I was enjoying herbal medicineat the time, teaching it,
offering it in sessions, but itwasn't a business.
And so when that momenthappened, of course, what
primarily comes into your mindis survival.
But at that time, I was alreadydeeply immersed in the world of
the plants and very connected tomy heart.

(10:37):
And I honestly thought that Iwould die if I had to enter into
conventional ways of being.
So, I became very aware in a waythat I hadn't been before of the
systems.
I was aware of it some beforehomeschooling.
I was aware of the educationalsystem.
Being an herbalist, I was awareof the medical system, but with

(11:00):
that experience, everything cameinto an exaggerated view of the
system, and I was sure that if Iwas, at that time being given
the opportunity to start overand create a new life, I didn't
want any of that.
I wanted to follow my heart andI wanted something that was

(11:23):
beautiful and something that hadlove at its root, and a place
where there was freedom andcreativity and authenticity and
choice.
I feel that the systems that Ihad been a part of, and that
exist in this world as a humancollective, are full of bondage

(11:45):
and fear and necessity and anemphasis on the head rather than
the heart.
I decided I'm going to pursuesomething different and I'm
going create somethingdifferent.
And with that divorce, a lot oftimes you're just trying to
survive.
And I said to a friend of mineduring that time, I'm not
interested in just surviving.

(12:06):
I want to create a life.

Danu Poyner (12:09):
Perhaps we should go back just to set a bit more
scene, now that you've laid thatout there.
You were raised in aconservative Baptist family and
I wonder if you can paint apicture of what that was like
and what young Amanda's outlookwas on the world.

Amanda Nicole (12:25):
Well, I want to begin by saying that it's an
aspect of my upbringing that Igreatly appreciate and that even
though I am not still a baptist,it's still in there.
You know, you can't really getit out of there.
But I do want to say is a partof my life that I value.
Part of that is because it gaveme Jesus.

(12:48):
I find the person of Jesus orthe Christ to be very valuable.
But as a girl, I went to churchevery Sunday.
Every morning, every night,Sunday morning, Sunday night,
every Wednesday night.
The way my mom put it was, ifthe church doors are open, we're
gonna be there.
And the funny thing was is itwasn't just our church.
If any other church doors wereopen, we were there.

(13:10):
So we didn't just go to therevival at my church.
A revivals where they havemeetings on multiple consecutive
nights, for people that don'tknow what that is.
We would go to the revival atthe other church.
And there were camp meetings,where there's tents and sawdust,
and we sang gospel, we sanghymns.

(13:31):
I sang in the choir.
I loved the music of the church.
Even from the time I was little,they didn't have to convince me
to pursue a relationship withGod and the divine.
I was all for it.
But the negative part of that isthat what was being presented to
me was hell, damnation,salvation.

(13:53):
The idea that I was separatefrom God and also that I needed
to be good and keep thecommandments.
So little Amanda was veryfocused on being good because
being good was what helped youto be with God.
Then I'll do it.
I mean, basically whatever theytold me was what was necessary
to be with God.

(14:13):
Then I would do it.
I also went to a smallconservative evangelical
Christian school, so Bibleclasses every day, pledges to
the American flag, the Christianflag, and the Bible every day.
It gave me a lot of orderthough, and I needed that order
because things at home were notalways orderly.
So I think I actually had, theway I remember it, a good and

(14:37):
pleasant upbringing in thechurch.
I'm thankful to have had thatbeginning.

Danu Poyner (14:42):
I liked what you said about, no one had to
convince you to have an interestin the Divine.
You mentioned you love Jesus,the person, and tell me a little
bit more about what that meansto you.

Amanda Nicole (14:55):
Well, it means something different now than it
did then.
But even then, I just knew thatthere was a divine being, or
there was divinity in the world,or that there was more to
reality than what was in frontof me.
There wasn't just matter.
I did believe in spirit.

(15:15):
I did believe that I wasconnected to it and that it was
personal.
I think that we'remultidimensional and that there
are places other than here andthe universe is infinite and
vast and wide.
I call myself a liliodendriss, ahuman embodiment of the tulip
poplar tree.
But I also don't mind to useterms like Angel.

(15:37):
I believe that our souls areinfinite and have existed and do
exist in many places and timesall at once.
And so I think when I got here,my soul already knew, and that
so often we as humans forgetwhere we came from and who we
are because of things thathappen to us in life.

(16:00):
And for some reason I was ableto remember at least that part,
if not the other specifics.

Danu Poyner (16:07):
Well, thank you.
That's a very beautiful thought.
And I like the way that youframed it about knowing there
was divinity in the world andmore to reality than what's in
front of me.
That's a very clear and powerfulkind of formulation.
It sounded like you wereskeptical even at that age,
about the separation as you putit, and hell and those kind of

(16:28):
ideas.
Could you expand on that alittle bit more?

Amanda Nicole (16:31):
Well, If they told me there was a hell, then I
believed them because they werethe authority figures and I
trusted them, but I didn'tbelieve everything they had to
say about things.
So for example, they would talkabout the apocalyptic last days
and I just couldn't buy it.
Like the fire and the death andthe fear and the devastation, It

(16:58):
scared me and I had a lot ofquestions about it.
And I remember telling my momwhen I was maybe in high school,
I'm not sure I can believe allthis about the book of
Revelation and the way theyinterpret it and put it forward.
Because I said, it's like wesuddenly enter a sci-fi novel.
I was having trouble reconcilingthis idea that was being put

(17:22):
forward to me, that God is lovewith the anger, and the
destruction and the hate.
Growing up in the Baptistchurch, I was good girl.
So I memorized my Bible versesand I sang in the choir and got
straight A's.
And so they looked at me andthought, oh, she'd be perfect
for ministry.
Let's hope she marries amissionary or a pastor.

(17:42):
And I was just not interested.
So I was sitting in the pews oneSunday and the pastor was
talking about if god is callingyou to Africa, and I'm so sorry
to even say that, you know, andit's just Africa is this, it's
sad just in their mind, thisdark continent that's in need of
saving.
I wasn't interested.

(18:03):
And so when the pastor saidraise your hand if you wanted
to, I didn't, but of course allthese other teenagers in the
youth group were raising theirhands.
And my mom like, elbowed mereally hard on my side and said,
Amanda, raise your hand.
And I said, but I don't wannago.
So when I got home, there wasthis whole discussion about, are

(18:24):
you saved?
Do you even love God?
How could you not wanna go?
And I just thought, I don't wantto, and I don't have to.
And I don't think God really iswanting us to go there either.
So I was being a good girl, butthat's just one example of a lot
times that I ask questions andthey didn't really like a lot of
the questions that I asked.

Danu Poyner (18:43):
So, you are, not in any way having to take on, you
just have the message ofdivinity in the world God is
love and, even though you areenjoying the order and being a
good girl as you put it, you'vegot your own ideas and your own
interpretations.
They've put a lot of investmentin you and they have a plan for
you.

(19:03):
What's your plan at that point?
Did you have a plan A?

Amanda Nicole (19:07):
Yeah, that might've been the last time I
had a plan for a long time, sowhat I wanted to be was a writer
and I had this idea that I wouldgo to New York and write for a
magazine, but I was told, youshould only write what you know.
And I remember thinking at thetime, I don't really know
anything, which was kind of atrue statement.

(19:29):
Also it was communicated to methat that was ridiculous
because, this is especially mymom, you're not gonna be a
writer.
Get serious, Amanda, that sortof thing.
You're not gonna be a writer,you're not gonna be a dancer,
you're not gonna be a this,you're not gonna be a that, be
sensible.
I was in the church and also Iwas a girl, so they don't really
give you a lot of choices.
So I decided I would be ateacher and that I would teach

(19:53):
English literature,'cause Iloved books.
l loved writing.
I actually didn't ever actualizePlan A, but that made all the
adults in my life happy, atleast through high school
graduation and beginningcollege.

Danu Poyner (20:08):
Yeah.
That gets them off your back.

Amanda Nicole (20:10):
It gets them off your back.
Right.

Danu Poyner (20:12):
Were you doing any writing secretly or on the side?

Amanda Nicole (20:15):
Not anything that's even worth talking about,
because I was just sodiscouraged in doing it.
And so it was just moresomething that I longed for, and
I had people steal my journaland my diary at school and that
didn't go well.
I was part of a creative writingclub for a short time in school,
which was really stepping out ona limb because in junior high I

(20:37):
realized if I did not make somesignificant changes, I was not
going to survive because, youknow, I was this good girl in
the church.
I loved nature, I loved beingoutside.
I loved to write.
I was really full of imaginationand quite dreamy, and that
wasn't gonna fly.
So in junior high, I decided Iwas gonna make a change, and I
became a cheerleader in school,like captain of the cheerleading

(21:01):
squad and homecoming queen acouple times, and homecoming
court.
So being part of the creativewriting club is offbrand as they
would say.
Writing came later.

Danu Poyner (21:13):
The question that's on my mind as you paint this
picture is what would youngAmanda have said if someone fell
through a portal from the futureor from the multidimensional all
space, and told young Amanda shewas going to become someone who
practices listening to thewisdom of trees.

Amanda Nicole (21:28):
Well, I wouldn't have believed them, partly
because I didn't even know youcould do that.
And also at that point in mylife, I probably would've been
afraid that what they weretelling me was evil and bad,
because I was also, during thattime, very drawn to stories
about witches and witchcraft.

(21:49):
I remember in maybe elementaryschool being in the library, and
there was a certain section inthe children's part of the
library that had books aboutdemons and demonology.
It was right near the section onGreek and Roman mythology, which
I loved and devoured.
And so I scooted over just alittle to those books, but I

(22:13):
didn't check them out because Iwould get in trouble.
So I was drawn to it but it wasforbidden.
So if someone had come and toldme that I could be an herbalist
and listen to the voices of theplants, I wouldn't have had any
context to understand what weresaying.
I certainly didn't think plantshad voices, and it would've
probably sounded like it was inline with witches and paganism

(22:37):
and that way of being.
So it would've been forbidden.
But I loved fairytales and Iloved nature, and I had this
imagination I think therewould've been something about it
that would've made me hope thatwhat they were saying was true
and that there could be more tomy experience than this like box

(22:59):
checking, cookie cutterexistence that was being imposed
on me.

Danu Poyner (23:05):
My natural next question is, when did things
start to become more off-brandfor you, I guess?

Amanda Nicole (23:14):
Well, I did marry a preacher, although he wasn't a
preacher at first.
At first he was going to be aprofessor.
Then we got married and his pathchanged, and so my path changed.
After my first three children, Imiscarried quite a few babies
and became very sick.
And part of that, if not all ofit, to be honest, was the

(23:36):
environment.
It was just miserable.
So I went to doctors andeverybody said, your blood work
is fine, everything's fine.
It's just a phase, which isinsane to me to have woman who's
had three healthy pregnancies,who was as young as I was when
the first time I went to adoctor, maybe I had had four

(23:57):
consecutive miscarriages at thattime.
And to be told, it's just normaland it's a phase.
So I did what a lot of peopledo.
I self-diagnosed and I startedresearching.
And by accident I ordered a bookthat came in the mail and it was
written from a traditionalChinese medicine perspective,

(24:18):
TCM, which I didn't know when Iordered it'cause I wouldn't have
ordered it because Ooh, that'sbad, we can't read that.
And I flipped it open and therewas chapter that was titled
exactly what I hadself-diagnosed myself as.
And I read it and it made somuch sense.
And so I thought I have to findan acupuncturist.

(24:39):
And that opened up everything.
Alternative ways of healing andways of being.
So suddenly this pastor's wifein this church where you have to
cover your head, there are nomusical instruments.
You can't observe any holidays.
You keep the Sabbath.
Some of the people whisper aboutwhether or not you can wear
pants.
As a woman, I am going to anacupuncturist, beginning to go

(25:04):
to yoga, and then theacupuncturist gave me Chinese
herbs.
I would come home with brownbags that when you open them,
had literally sticks and twigsin the bag.
And then I would make adecoction on the stove and I
would drink it.
It opened up a rememberinginside of me of things that I
liked before life happened andeverything took over and I was

(25:28):
told what to do.
So from there I began to changemy lifestyle, what I eat and
what I used as medicine andhealthcare.
And that's what led me toherbalism and to take herbal
classes.

Danu Poyner (25:41):
You mentioned one of the things you really liked
about the church environment wasthe music and then you said that
in your family situation, youwere not able to have any
musical instruments or any ofthat.
Forgive my ignorance, but Idon't know how to marry those
two things.

Amanda Nicole (25:57):
Yes.
I don't know how to marry themeither.
so In the Baptist church youhave the piano and we had the
organ we did four part harmony,my dad played his guitar.
So at home we'd sing country andfolk and seventies rock with my
dad.
I loved music.
And when I was in college, Iwent to a Baptist church.
And then I had a lot ofquestions in college because of

(26:20):
some things that happened.
And I had a professor who Ireally loved and still love,
appreciate his presence in mylife.
And he went to a Presbyterianchurch, a reformed church now,
not Presbyterian, mainline andliberal, but a more conservative
Presbyterian church.
And he invited me to his church.

(26:42):
That was the context in which Imet the person who became my
husband.
We were a part of that church.
Now that church did still singand have instruments, but once
we got married, my husbandbecame convinced of even more
conservative doctrines that areconnected to what's called, the
Scottish Church, and so we endedup in a denomination that

(27:06):
believed that you should onlysing the Psalms that are in the
Bible.
So there's a book of Psalms, andthose were the songs that were
approved and so you can onlysing those.
Through their interpretation ofscripture and their application
of it, it needed to be sungacapella.
I went from having so much musicand a diversity of music and

(27:30):
instruments to no instrumentsand no diversity.
It was sad and I can't marry it.
And it was a very great loss insome ways to have not had music
for such a long time.
But the positive part that cameout of that is I came to have a
great appreciation for the humanvoice all on its own, through

(27:54):
the acapella singing.
I recently took a songwritingclass.
There were classes where wecould share songs we had
written.
And so when I shared my song thefirst time, I sang acapella.
She said afterwards, no, I wantpeople to offer their songs with

(28:15):
musical accompaniment.
She said, people can't hear thesong.
They don't know where the song'sgoing if you don't have all of
the instruments and that'sactually something that needs
improvement on their end.
So I wrote her a very lengthynote in defense of acapella

(28:38):
singing.
Singing acapella is so much apart of me that to tell me I
can't sing acapella is tosilence me.
So she said, okay, you can dothat, but if you could add in
harmony and stuff, that would begreat'cause it helps people fill
it out.
So that's what did.
I determined that every classafter that, I would present my
songs acapella in defense of theHuman Voice.

(29:02):
And the next time we presentedour songs, I presented a song,
Ancient Tree.
And I did three part Harmony.
And when I turned it in, Ididn't know what she was gonna
think because she didn't wantacapella.
And when the song finished, shewas silent for a length of time.
And I was thinking, oh no.

(29:22):
And she said, well, we couldleave this just as it is.
Not every song after that wasreceived in that way, but I had
made my point and I hadadvocated effectively for the
human voice.

Danu Poyner (29:38):
When you said before that the questions that
you were asking were not alwaysreceived.
I'm getting a sense of theforthright.
Where does that forthrightness,and advocacy come from Amanda?
Well,

Amanda Nicole (29:50):
my mom is sure it didn't come from her and the
church certainly wouldn't wantit to come from them, but I do
think, actually some of it camefrom my mom.
She would like for me to use myvoice the same way she uses
hers.
I don't know where it came from.
It's just a part of me.
And it's interesting becausethere was this book when I was
growing up, the Strong-WilledChild.

(30:11):
It was by this Christian person,a psychologist or something.
And so my mom, oh, she has toread the strong-willed child
because I've got a strong-willedchild.
What I was told repeatedly whenI was small was that the purpose
was to break my will.
And they did, in large part,they did break my will.

(30:32):
And it's why I did such a goodjob for so long, and I think
it's why it was so disruptivewhen I changed my mind.

Danu Poyner (30:40):
I don't wanna take you into the space of the
miscarriages'cause it'sdifficult conversation.
But I just wanted to offer howdifficult and frustrating it
must be, on top of a situationlike that, the not being
listened to or having yourperspective acknowledged about
something as core to you as yourown body.

(31:03):
I just wanted to make space forthat thought, if you wanted to
talk about it at all.

Amanda Nicole (31:09):
No, I appreciate that.
I wasn't heard during that time,and it wasn't just because of
the allopathic mainstreammedical system, though they were
not listening.
But also the church wasn'tlistening.
If you have a miscarriage, lotof people don't even think
there's a soul or a life or ababy there.

(31:30):
I believed there was a soul andI was attached to the soul and I
loved the soul.
But to everybody else, there wasno proof of it.
I miscarried before there wereusually any visible physical
effects of the pregnancy.
So it was just this invisiblehappening that most people

(31:53):
couldn't connect with.
So they didn't understand why Iwas so sad.
And also people thought, youhave three kids.
Why are you sad?
So no one was listening and noone was believing me about
anything I said about what Ithought was going on with my
body.
And that's why I loved theacupuncturist.
There are people we meet thatare life changing.

(32:15):
My first session with her wasalmost two hours.
She just let me say everything Ineeded to say about every single
miscarriage and how they'dhappened.
By the time I went to her, I'dhad, I think five and I had two
more while I was with her beforethings changed.
And I told her every detail.
No one had ever listened to me.
All the appointments were 10minutes if that, and they didn't

(32:36):
hear a word I said.
When I finished speaking and shefinished writing, she put her
pen down and she looked at meand she said, Someone should
have been taking care of you.
I can help you.
In that moment, the healingstarted because she heard me,
she cared.
And when she said, someoneshould have been taking care of

(32:57):
you, I had no idea how true thatwas.
And then for her to say, I canhelp you, and she did.
By being heard, she strengthenedmy voice.
The miscarriages and the healingthat came with those, I believe
was the shift in the change thatopened the portal for me to the

(33:18):
plants and other ways of knowingand being.
And it was the beginning of myexit from the previous life.
I just didn't know it at thetime.

Danu Poyner (33:27):
You mentioned how you came by this really
significant life changing bookalmost by accident.
When you were having theseexperiences and no one was
listening to you and you weregrieving alone, and this thing
comes to you and you're not sureabout it, did you have doubts
about meeting the acupuncturist?
What was going on for you then?

Amanda Nicole (33:46):
I was very cautious about the acupuncturist
I chose.
There was this term that wasused in the church.
Of course there's pagans,there's witches, there's the new
age, there's all sorts of terms,right?
And so I didn't wanna be any ofthose things, and so I was
trying to be careful about thechoices that I made.

(34:07):
But I also, at the time, was whoI am, which is intuitive, and
she felt good to me.
She sounded good.
But I did have questions aboutit, and I actually remember
praying one morning and sayingthat I did want to be well and I
did want to be healed, but thatI didn't want to be well and I

(34:30):
didn't want to be healed if itmeant that I was going to be
without God or separate fromGod.
.And so I prayed, is this okayto use herbs and to make these
decoctions?
Am I doing the right thing or isthis outside of you because I
want to be with you.

(34:50):
After I prayed that, I just letmy Bible fall open, which was
not recommended by my particularChristian tradition.
I looked down and it was theBook of Revelation, and it said
the leaves of the tree are forthe healing of the people.
And that was my answer.
And knew that the divine hadspoken.

Danu Poyner (35:11):
So you met the acupuncturist and you had the
connection and that healingprocess began, and then there's
a kind of duality because you'renot sharing this with the rest
of the world that's notlistening to you.
So how long does that go onbefore there's a point of
tension?

Amanda Nicole (35:26):
Well, I kept a lot of what I was doing a secret
until I was pregnant again,because I thought if I say too
much about what I'm doing andthey don't see the effects of
it, so it's not blessed, right,God doesn't bless it, then
that's not going to go well.

(35:48):
So I didn't say much about goingto an acupuncturist.
I didn't mention the yoga.
It was very careful, because ofwhat people thought.
When I found out I was expectingmy fourth child, I knew it was
going to go well, but I keptthat pregnancy even a secret

(36:10):
until the third trimester andthey were, oh my goodness, you
know what happened becauseeverybody had just written me
off as like the woman who'sgonna grieve the rest of her
life and mourn dead babies.
I mean, I know that soundsmorbid, but that's really what
they had done.
The point is, don't say toomuch.
Just say acupuncturist, oh, whatdo they do?

(36:30):
And then downplay what they do.
But people were concernedbecause I was in herb school and
also for four or five years Iwas attending home births as a
midwifery student and assistant,and I was hosting a community
birth circle outside of thechurch.
So people were already concernedbecause they felt that I was

(36:51):
spending too much time with whatwould be called unbelievers and
people outside of the church.

Danu Poyner (36:56):
So you had the fourth child and it was
successful and you mentioned youhad six kids.
So that was,

Amanda Nicole (37:05):
very successful.
I said to her when I gotpregnant the next time, so
fourth and then the fifth, Isaid to her, I just wanted to
stop miscarrying was Exactly,know?
Right.
But I was so well, I was well,so that's what happens.

Danu Poyner (37:25):
Now I'm curious if you can take us from that quite
joyful place to what youdescribed earlier as a sudden
and disruptive divorce.
What's the chain of events thatleads you there?

Amanda Nicole (37:39):
So the church was extremely conservative.
We were in a denomination, thenwe weren't, and ended up just
being that one church, whichsome people said was a cult.
And it eventually disintegrated.
One of the main reasons wasbecause the church practiced
excommunication, which means ifyou do something that is

(38:01):
considered sinful or scandalous,then you can be put outside the
church.
And this was being done forthings like wives that weren't
obeying their husbands, like howthey make breakfast or how they
speak to him, or young adults,18, 19, 20 who decide to elope
and get married.

(38:22):
So it wasn't as if there weremurderers in the congregation,
and so this is what washappening.
But a small body of people canonly handle so much of that
before things start to crumble.
You just start running out ofpeople.
And then also my husband at thetime, this is gonna sound weird

(38:43):
but to his credit, foundexcommunicating people
stressful.
So he ended up not being well.
He started to have troublecomprehending when someone was
speaking or even being able tospeak himself.
It was the effects of thestress.
So I started to remember abusethat I experienced when I was

(39:05):
small and I started havingflashbacks and that was very
stressful.
So that was also happening withthe last few excommunications
and it was just this perfectstorm for things to collapse.
And he ended up resigning and wemoved from Northern Virginia to

(39:28):
the upstate of South Carolina.
I was so happy to not be thereanymore.
And I couldn't believe that wewere having this opportunity to
start over.
I could talk about whatever Iwanted to talk about and read
whatever I wanted to read.
I didn't have to keep herbalisma secret anymore.
And I could fully express who Iwas and who I was becoming

(39:50):
because I wasn't the pastor'swife anymore.
And I didn't have to worry aboutthe church backlash that could
come from some of those things.
But my former husband, he wasn'tfeeling like starting over or
letting go.
It was almost like he had movedlocations, but none of his
beliefs had changed.
Whereas for me, my beliefs hadbeen changing for years.

(40:14):
Now, I was just getting theopportunity to express them and
embody them.
And the plants took me on a pathwhere the voice of the preacher
and the voices of approvedcommentators and theologians
were no longer my soleauthorities.

(40:36):
I began to listen to my ownheart.
I began to think that I couldhear the voice of God without
these mediators.
I began to listen to the plantsand believe that they were
communicating the voice of thedivine, and so I began to listen

(40:57):
to more voices and allow formore input.
And I began to find words andconcepts in different ways.
We were getting along well, butwe weren't moving in the same
direction, and we had becomevery different people than who

(41:19):
we had been.
He filed for divorce secretly,quietly, because I was told the
church says you can't getdivorced except for certain
reasons.
And I got an email from him thatsaid he had filed and that the
paperwork would be arriving in afew days.
And I had two weeks before atemporary hearing, and all of

(41:41):
that started to unwind and itwas very disruptive and it
wasn't kind and it wasn'tpeaceful.
It was very hard.
Partly what was happening wasthat we were no longer part of a
physical church, well, we were,but he wasn't the pastor and it
wasn't a church that practicedexcommunication.
But the thinking was some of thethings that I had done and that

(42:04):
I was believing were worthy ofexcommunication.
Since there wasn't a church, thecivil courts were used as a form
of excommunication or attemptedto be used in that way as
punishment.

Danu Poyner (42:21):
What had been happening with your journey with
the plants at that point.
What had you been up to and howfar had you got, and what voices
had you incorporated into yourlistening?

Amanda Nicole (42:32):
I had been teaching, herbal classes, plant
medicine classes in person andonline.
I had been teaching classes thatwere about plant medicine for
the body, but also for thespirit, for the soul, for the
emotions.
I was already sitting andlistening to the plants and
inviting other people to sit andlisten with me, teaching them

(42:56):
how, facilitating that practicein those spaces.
I had written a book, Flowersfor a Girl: Plant Medicine and
Sexual Trauma.
I'd been teaching at some herbalconferences and I had
incorporated many voices.
So, sweet violet, a flower, anyplant that wanted to talk to me,

(43:17):
white pine, tulip poplar.
I was listening to the land.
Not just plants.
I would sit and listen to landin certain places.
That was happening.

Danu Poyner (43:27):
You mentioned that it was important for you when
you started on that journey topray on whether this was with
God or not.
And I'm curious how thatconversation had been going.

Amanda Nicole (43:40):
Before the divorce happened and before we
moved, before church fell apart,I was curious about plant
communication.
And I wanted to know more.
If it was possible that couldtalk a rose, I wanted to talk to
a rose.
Right.
But I wanted to be sure it wasgood, that it was right, that it

(44:02):
wasn't sinful, and so I didn'twant to ask my teacher and
people in the herbal circlesthat didn't identify with the
church because they have adifferent perspective.
There was this group called, TheChristian Herbalist.
I was part of this group, so Iput into the chat space,'is

(44:25):
there anyone here who would beinterested in talking about
plant communication?' and it wasa And hours I was kicked out of
the group.
They called me a creatureworshiper and they tossed around
words like pagan and witch.
I was so taken aback by theaggressiveness of the response

(44:49):
to just a well meant question.
My response was that I didn'tworship the creation at all,
that I felt like my experienceswith the plants actually brought
me closer to God and to thedivine.
Like, if plants do this, if theyheal the way they heal the body

(45:10):
and if they support usemotionally like this, and if
they do talk, doesn't that justmake god and the creation even
more amazing and miraculous.
So it's not just that God made arose, God made a rose that you
can have a conversation withthat can also be healing to your
womb and your heart and yourblood.
That makes God greater, right?

(45:31):
But that's not how they viewedit.
So I told them that I thoughttheir God was small, which was
actually a bold way for me tospeak at that time.
And so I got kicked out of thegroup and I went on my own
journey.
By the time the divorcehappened, I had decided that
nothing about these things werecontradictory.

(45:52):
In my mind, I saw and heard andfelt and experienced the divine
in nature, and I felt closer andmore connected to the divine in
those places.
And I thought that what I wasexperiencing was beautiful and
good and full of truth.

Danu Poyner (46:14):
We're at a really important moment where you've
had this sudden and disruptivedivorce and the home that you
had has now gone, but you aremaking immediate pragmatic
choices about survival butyou're doing so from some place
of Yeah.
The institutional representationof the divine is now not my

(46:36):
home, but I feel more at homewith the essence of the divine.
And so that must give you somecomfort and some confidence for
not just surviving, but making alife.
What do you do next?

Amanda Nicole (46:50):
Yes.
I'm still in the middle of that.
He filed in the fall of 2018,and it was final in the fall of
2019.
And so here we are in 2023, soit's been four or five years.
It's a lot to try to put backtogether.
It's a lot to hold together,especially with my children,
especially when I haven't hadfamily.

(47:12):
But what I did was I had theplants and I had plant medicine
and I still needed to be homewith my children because
homeschooling was stillrequired.
I took the classes and thesessions that I had been
teaching, and I started toattempt to create them into a

(47:35):
business.
But it's been very difficultbecause that's not conventional.
There aren't structures alreadyout there, but I couldn't go and
get a conventional job becauseit wouldn't have paid enough
anyway.
I hadn't worked for a thousandyears, in any way that anybody
was gonna notice on a CV orresume.

(47:57):
When everything is gone and youhave to start over and you have
to build a new foundation, whatsort of foundation do you want,
and what kind of structure areyou going to build?
Because do you want to findyourself in that same place
again?
Do you want to have to gothrough all of that again to

(48:18):
rediscover and find yourself?
Do you wanna waste any moretime?
No, I don't.
So it's been a very pivotalseason and I'm still moving
through what I'm creating andwhat I want it to look like and
what will be sustainable.
It's very hard to do somethingoutside of the systems.

Danu Poyner (48:40):
I'd love to ask you a little bit about the plant
communication, and how thatworks.
I live alone and I have houseplants and I do talk to them
sometimes, but they don'tusually talk back to me, not in
a way that I have heard.
So maybe you can let me know alittle bit how the plant
communication actually works foryou.

Amanda Nicole (48:59):
I feel the most like myself when I'm listening
and then when I share what Ireceive, I feel like Amanda,
it's why I'm here.
I just sit and listen.
I will go and sit with a tree orsit with a particular flower, or
I will sit with a picture of iton my computer, or just think

(49:20):
it.
And then I listen.
I don't hear an audible voice.
Some people may.
But what happens is I see words.
I have a knowing.
The tree I sat with thisweekend, there was a point where
it wanted to say about atelephone pole that was beside
of it.

(49:40):
It wanted to say, I never reallythought I'd end up with someone
like this.
And that's what I heard.
In my mind, that was the thoughtthat rose up.
But sometimes I'll also seeimages.
So again, this tree I sat withthis weekend, it was wanting to
talk to me about a person thathad gotten stuck at a place in

(50:00):
their life, and hadn't been ableto move past that place of
transition.
So these thoughts are rising up,but I'm also seeing this person
in the middle of a river andthey've just stopped in the
middle and they have no abilityto go further.
Or maybe there'll be a song thatwill come to mind.

(50:21):
I'm very open to any way ofreceiving the messages and the
voice.
Over time I've learned todiscern what is the voice of the
plant or the river or the land,and what is my own or someone
else's.
I think it's a skill we're allcapable of, we've just forgotten

(50:43):
how.

Amanda Nicole-1 (50:44):
Something you said earlier about you went and
listened to any of the plantsthat would have a conversation
whether you or wanted to talk toyou, and I'm curious how you
know,

Danu Poyner (50:52):
when there's a

Amanda Nicole-1 (50:52):
conversation in the offering?

Amanda Nicole (50:54):
Well, sometimes I initiate the conversation, so
sometimes I'll approach a treethat I want to talk to and I'll
say, hi, I'm Amanda, and thenI'll start to speak.
But then what happens for me, Iwill start to feel a physical,
almost energetic sensation in myheart space and I can feel it.

(51:19):
It starts to make it where it'shard for me to talk.
When I teach classes, I justhave to stop talking.
It's as if all of my attentionand knowing and consciousness is
being directed to my heartspace.
And that's how I know that thetree is saying, yes, I'll talk
to you.
If I don't feel that, thenthey're probably not in the

(51:43):
mood.
Sometimes too, when I'm walkingaround, suddenly I'll feel it in
my heart space, and I'll justhave a knowing to look to the
right or something, and there'llbe a particular plant or tree
there.
I literally feel the energeticconnection from my heart to
them.
Sometimes too though, they'lljust say something as I'm

(52:05):
walking past them.
Like the black walnut tree wasone of the first trees that ever
spoke to me more than a decadeago.
I was walking past it on the wayto my car.
I was new to all of this, but Icould tighten you up and clean
you out.
it said

Danu Poyner (52:21):
Oh, that's quite an opening line.

Amanda Nicole (52:24):
It's quite an opening line, but they have
different ways of introducingthemselves, so,

Danu Poyner (52:29):
It's a beautiful thing.
I'm curious how you go aboutsharing it with others, because
there is this translation intothe verbal realm when you're
talking about it.
My favorite movie isRatatouille, which is about the
rat who wants to be a chef andthere's a scene where he's
discovered the whole world ofcooking and the radical
possibilities of having acompletely different

(52:51):
relationship to food.
And he's trying to convey theconcept of combining different
flavors to his brother'cause therats just normally eat garbage.
And his brother is beingpolitely supportive, but also a
bit weirded out and not reallygetting it.
It really captures the feelingof trying to share something
that you can see that otherpeople can't.
And in this case, it's alsobecause what Remy the rat is

(53:13):
trying to convey is a completelynon-verbal, non-visual thing.
It's an experiential thing.
So I just really like the waythat the animators do the
flavors and it gets me in thefeelings every time I watch that
scene.
So that came up for me.

Amanda Nicole (53:28):
I like that movie too.
The way that I communicate whatI experience is I translate it.
I transcribe what I receive intowords.
So my podcast, I do that with myspoken voice, sub stack or my
email newsletter.
I'm interested in doing morevisually, with art and even

(53:50):
myself, just the way I appear inmy presentation.
So that's different ways that Iwould communicate and share what
I receive.
But for other people in myclasses or in one-on-one
sessions, I invite them to do itwith me.
They can do it without me,obviously.

(54:11):
But if I'm there, it's like Ienergetically turn things on in
the other person and make itpossible.
I've done that over the years inclasses.
Or I'll pull up a pictureonline.
That came about with Covid andthen I will just invite the
person to listen with me.
I'll say, we're gonna sit withthis plant and then We're just

(54:33):
gonna open up to receive what itmight have to share with us.
So I'll say, just notice what doyou hear?
Do any words or phrases come up?
What do you see?
Are there any images?
Do you feel any sensationsanywhere in your body?
Do you have a memory of acertain person?
Does a certain song come tomind?

(54:54):
Anything that you notice whilewe're sitting here, feel free to
share it when we're finished.
And so usually we just sit for amoment, it doesn't take long to
receive and then when it'sfinished, I invite them to
share.
But I'm also listening and so Iwill write down what I receive

(55:14):
and I always let the group gofirst I want them to be able to
share without having heard whatI received.
So it doesn't color what theythink is right,'cause there is
actually no wrong answer.
Then when they share it, Ireflect back because I know the
voice and I know the medicine ofthe plant, so I can say, yes,

(55:38):
it's beautiful because themedicine of this plant is such
and such, or, yes, that'sperfect because plant once said
this, or I'll read what I got,and they're just blown away
because that's what I got.
What I think is important isthat they experience it too.
Because once you experience it,it's real and it opens up a

(56:00):
portal and a door to what'spossible.
And then some people, they wannapractice more and become more
fluent in the language of theplants.
And it's really just a way ofbeginning to trust what you
hear.

Danu Poyner (56:15):
The undeniable experience is the phrase I
always go to for this, becauseonce you've had it, then it
changes the way that you thinkand you can't unknow that.
Is there an exercise orsomething you can do with me
while we're here to honor thatpractice?

Amanda Nicole (56:29):
Yeah.
Actually, I know we're on apodcast, I see how I can share
my screen, I'll do that.
Do you mind?
And then what I thought was wecould just sit here and just do
it together.
So, gonna share my picture.

Danu Poyner (56:43):
Ah, this is a blueberry.

Amanda Nicole (56:45):
Yeah.
So, we'll just take a moment andyou can just take maybe a couple
of deep breaths just to settlein, and then maybe I'll just
sing'cause I like to sing tobring us into this space.
And then we can just sit herefor a moment and you can just
notice.
I sit and listen to the trees,the messages, they fall like

(57:09):
leaves, into my heart, into mysoul, tree talk is how I walk
whole.
I sit and listen to the tree,the messages, they fall like

(57:34):
leaves into my heart, into mysoul.
Tree talk is how I walk home.
And then we can just look at itfor a moment and just see what
you notice.
Are there any words or emotionsor images that you notice?

Danu Poyner (58:00):
Nothing that's coming up for me unbidden that
I'm not going to force onto it.

Amanda Nicole (58:07):
No, you don't have to force anything.

Danu Poyner (58:10):
I'm just looking at the shape, to be honest.
It's not something I'd noticedreally.
There's star shape, it's verymuch a star, but it's also round
not a pointy star.

Amanda Nicole (58:22):
So it's interesting because don't
usually notice the stars onblueberries because we're not
usually looking at them thisclosely.
But blueberries, the Ojibwe andother indigenous people would
also connect them to the stars.
They call them starberries andconsider them to be a gift from

(58:44):
the stars.
One of the first times I eversat with blueberry, it invited
me to look through that star onits outer edge because it told
me if I looked through it, I'dbe able to see the galaxies and
the stars.
There's a great deal toblueberry when it comes to

(59:04):
astrology and star medicine andeven our own human connection to
the stars, and even the idea ofa home being in the stars or
sometimes home, feeling likeit's very far away.

Danu Poyner (59:19):
It's nice.
It's a nice kind of like goldenhour sunlight.

Amanda Nicole (59:23):
It's interesting too because with the light and
you speak about the golden hour,so like sun setting, but
blueberry has been traditionallyused to improve night vision,
eyesight.

Danu Poyner (59:36):
I'm catching myself feeling guilty about thinking
about the flavor because I'mtalking to the berry.
So how should I feel about that?
It's sweet and it's quite

Amanda Nicole (59:49):
so you're thinking of the flavor, which is
sweet, right?

Danu Poyner (59:52):
It's got a bursting feel to it.

Amanda Nicole (59:56):
Yes.
I love it.
I'll go with bursting in amoment.
Okay, so part of Blueberry'smedicine is sweetness and
traditionally its leavesespecially, but also the berries
have used to regulate bloodsugar for certain diabetics.
This is even gonna be even moreinteresting in the moment
because you said you felt guiltythinking about eating it.

(01:00:19):
A client, maybe six, seven yearsago, he came to me and he has
been diabetic for decades and athis session he didn't bring it
up and then it came up at theend of his session.
I said, why didn't you saysomething about that?
And he said,I'm diabetic.

(01:00:40):
I don't deserve sweetness.
So you bring up this idea ofguilt in connection to, oh,
there's this being, and I'mthinking about eating it, which
is true, but also there's thisaspect of it with the sweetness
of life is being able to enjoyit and to think that it's yours
to receive.
So part of blueberry medicine isthe medicine of abundance.

(01:01:04):
You don't even have to pickthem, they'll just fall into
your hands.
But you've got to be openreceive them.
It's interesting too, when youtalk about bursting, it's such a
joyful plant.
It bursts with joy, but alsoit's juicy.
So it bursts with juice.

Danu Poyner (01:01:20):
When I was looking at your.
Interviews with the trees, whichyou describe as a interspecies
philosophical dialogue.
The one that leapt out to mepersonally the most was the one
with red maple, and red Maple issaying, you've forgotten how to

(01:01:41):
dance and who has time to thinkabout ethics when we're dancing?
And that just really landed withsome force for me.
'cause I'm very much in my headand very much intellectualizing
and systematizing my feelings.
So that really spoke to me.
And what you're telling me aboutblueberry is accepting the

(01:02:01):
abundance and the joy and thebursting and being in that
experientially is something I'mworking on.

Amanda Nicole (01:02:07):
Yeah, I would just also offer, part of
blueberry's medicine is that youare enough.
So abundance, it offers there isenough.
And also this medicine, it'sgiven to me that I don't have to
do another thing to be acceptedand to be enough.
There's no apology.

(01:02:27):
There's no lack.
That's how blueberry offers it.
Thank you for being willing tosit with it.
But do you see what happened?
So even if you didn't receive aline, you might not have thought
you heard anything while we weretogether, right?
But you were receiving, you wereengaging.
It was bringing out words likesweetness or guilt or the

(01:02:52):
apology or the bursting or thestar.
And that's how a lot of peoplestart.
They just start by about theysee and what comes into their
mind.
And then what I did is part ofwhat I do, which is help you see
how you are in the realm ofblueberry.

(01:03:12):
You are talking about blueberry,and then it moves from there for
people where then they start toover time, just have confidence
and be able to discern and notintellectualize it because it's
not an intellectual experiencein some ways.
You have to drop into a certainspace and a way of being.

Amanda Nicole-2 (01:03:34):
Until recently, say five or six years ago, I
didn't even know that there wasa way of being that wasn't that
intellectualizing space.
People talked about it and Ithought about

Danu Poyner (01:03:46):
emotional connection and I

Amanda Nicole-2 (01:03:47):
thought I understood that, but

Danu Poyner (01:03:49):
I didn't actually experience it.
The point is, that expanded myuniverse and when I had that
realization of, oh, there's awhole other way of being and
it's just as important, if notmore so, then I felt I had
already known that and alwaysknown that.

(01:04:10):
And it's something that I hadnow remembered, and all of that
reading that you did in thelibrary when you were little
with the mythology, must havebeen useful because in ancient
Greek, the word for truth,alethia, does mean literally
unfor getting.
And I wanna ask, when you aretalking to people and taking

(01:04:30):
people through exercises, howopen and how emotionally
intelligent does someone need tobe, to be able to go on this
journey with you?

Amanda Nicole (01:04:40):
If someone is completely uninterested and
closed off, it's be a moredifficult go than someone who's
ready to jump in and believesit's possible.
But I can be with anyone ifthey're willing.
Some people are more or less intune with their heart and their
emotions, but I feel like partof what I'm here to do is to

(01:05:02):
help them get in touch with it.
So it's not just that I'm hereto facilitate their relationship
and communication betweenthemselves and the blueberry.
I am also here to help thembegin to learn how to drop into
their heart space.
The plants are a way that we dothat together.
If I feel that someone'suncomfortable or closed off,

(01:05:25):
then I try to read them to knowhow I can help them open more.
But what they see and experiencereally is up to them and the
timeframe of how long it mighttake to open to have this or
that type of conversation isalso up to them.
I do believe that this issomething that we, as humans are

(01:05:50):
meant to do.

Danu Poyner (01:05:51):
I understand by consciously making plants into
spokespeople of sorts, we'reable to get in touch with our
heart space and retrieve our ownvoice.
So there is a sense in which itisn't really about the plants,
it's about us, but also it isreally about the plants, or at
least dissolving the distinctionbetween human and non-human and

(01:06:14):
being part of the all.
How do you think about that?

Amanda Nicole (01:06:17):
I have this phrase that I use, which is that
plants are instruments ofincarnation.
I believe that they are here tohelp us remember.
I have a background inChristianity, and Christianity
has a doctrine where it teachesthere was a fall.
For some reason we do struggleto experience, acknowledge,

(01:06:40):
embody our connection to thedivine, to incarnate, but the
plants and the animals don't.
And even the Bible will talkabout that, where it's the
humans that fell and then, we'llsay that the creation groans
waiting for us to return.
In my experience, the naturalworld, what we think of trees,

(01:07:05):
plants, rivers, lakes, land, theearth, the stars, everything
except us seems to have retainedits connection to the divine.
It doesn't need to remember.
So part of why they're here isto help us remember.
When we speak to the plants orother non-human beings, it is

(01:07:27):
about them.
It is about recognizing theirconsciousness and their being
and acknowledging theirexistence and their essence and
relating to them.
So it is about their voice, butthen they would also think that
it's about our voice and theysee how we're disconnected, how

(01:07:48):
we've forgotten certain things,and they have all these ways of
helping us remember.
So, for instance, blueberry thatwe sat with: aspects of being
enough, being connected to thestars, having the ability to
experience sweetness and to beworthy of it.
Feeling at home, or if you lookat another plant, maybe white

(01:08:14):
pine, this idea of being atpeace, having all of the pieces
gathered together.
Each plant has its own, I think,aspect of what we would think of
as the divine.
And it is about recognizing themand then for them it is also
about supporting us.

Amanda Nicole-2 (01:08:33):
It kind of reminds me of the acupuncturist.
It's like the message from theplants and the non-human
entities is, I'm sorry for whatyou

Danu Poyner (01:08:44):
experienced and I see you and I can help you.
Come with me and I'll show you.

Amanda Nicole (01:08:49):
Yeah, I'm really glad you said what you said,
with the plant saying, I'msorry, and I'm here to help you
because one of the things that Ihear a lot is that humans are
the bane of the earth, andthey're ruining it, and they're
destroying it.
And it's such a horrible way toview humanity.

(01:09:12):
We do misuse our resources.
We do make everything intoprofit and commodity.
We do pollute.
We don't recognize the plants asconscious beings, and so we just
take our lawnmowers out andwhack their heads off, but we
are loved and we are seen and weare wanted, and we are not this

(01:09:39):
horrible, awful plague, I don'tthink, that covers the face of
the earth.
The Earth loves us.
Nature loves us.
And it knows that if we couldjust remember, we would make
different choices.
It's here to help us remember,because it wants to be with us.
Just as much as a honeybee or alion or a oak is part of this

(01:10:08):
ecosystem, so are we.
And this feeling of guilt youmentioned.
Like a lot of what the plants dois let's get rid of this guilt.
Let's get rid of this shame.
Let's get rid of thisunworthiness.
Do you know how amazing you are?

Danu Poyner (01:10:22):
The thing I'm apologizing for all the time is
because I feel not wanted in thespace in a very big way.
So what you said about therivers would miss us, that means
a lot to me.
Hmm.

Amanda Nicole (01:10:38):
Well, part of Blueberry's medicine is home and
belonging, that we belong, andso for myself, when blueberry
came to me the most powerfullywas when my mom had just left
me, like abandoned me and therewas no home.
So this feeling of not beingwanted, for some of us it's just

(01:11:00):
like in our blood.
So part of blueberry's medicineis you do belong here.
This is your home.
You are a part of something.
You are always wanted, you'rethe thing it most wants.
It wants to eat you up.
Like you were like, oh, I feelso bad when to eat the
blueberry.
The divine is like, I can't getenough of you.
But we don't think that aboutourselves.

(01:11:21):
But part of blueberry medicineis you're so wanted and you
belong.

Danu Poyner (01:11:27):
Thank you for that.
Well, thank blueberry for that.
Um, this has become a personaltherapy session for me.
You have a favorite conversationpartner in the plants, which is
the namesake.
So tell me about Tulip Poplar.

Amanda Nicole (01:11:41):
So Tulip Poplar, I describe it as the tree of my
heart.
It's the plant that I feel mostresonant with, that I've been
speaking to the longest, andthat has been a companion
through really difficultcircumstances.
Part of my purpose in being hereis to understand that tree and

(01:12:05):
learn it and communicate itsmedicine to the world.
It first came to me beforeeverything started to fall
apart.
It was the first tree I'd everspoken to.
And I just got this sense thatit was an impenetrable fortress.
That was the phrase that came.
And I just felt like it didn'twant to talk to me.

(01:12:25):
It was like it had a moat aroundit.
And then I was in an herbalclass and Tulip Poplar tree came
up and everybody starts, oh,it's such a sweet tree.
loves humans.
And I was thinking, that is notwhat I got.
So Matthew Wood was the teacherthat day and I had my hand up
and he said, Amanda hassomething to say and I said,
that's not what I'm getting.

(01:12:46):
I get from it that it's animpenetrable fortress and it's
unapproachable, and the wholeclass started.
Oh, where did she get that?
And I was kind of it's an herbalclass.
We don't all like start chitterchattering that person is wrong
about what a tree said.
I mean, how are you gonna know?
So Matt, who's usually prettysoft spoken, he got firm, and he

(01:13:07):
called the class down and hesaid, that's enough.
It's teaching Amanda somethingThat was like 10 years ago.
The next time I was with it, itsaid to me, we will be your
parents and I saw it likelifting me up these two trees
swinging me between them likeyou'd swing a child that you're
playing with.
And at the time I had bothparents and I thought, well, why

(01:13:28):
would I need trees to be myparents?
But I wasn't going to continueto have both parents and so I
began to experience that tree asa parent.
It has an enormous amount ofwisdom.
It's a tree of the heart, ittalks about the heart being a
golden compass that shows us ourtrue North.
It's the one that's taught memost how to listen.

(01:13:51):
And it told me once, tell ourstories, and I felt so honored.
cause I'm just this littleperson that doesn't even know
what they're doing.
And so I told it that I would,and I thought it meant like tell
Tulip Poplar stories.
And so I've been very focused onthat, that I want to be sure I
talk about Tulip Poplar andshare who it is.

(01:14:11):
But then what I realized wasover the years is, tell our
stories.
It's so intertwined with mine.
So tell Tulip poplars storiesand Amanda tell your story
because this is our story.
But then I've realized, this isstory, the Human Collective,
like the story of all of ustogether, the one, the divine.

Amanda Nicole-3 (01:14:34):
To, come back to how we framed this
conversation at the beginningabout not just surviving, but
building a life.

Danu Poyner (01:14:42):
How is that going?

Amanda Nicole (01:14:44):
I think that the trajectory is good because, I'm
sitting in a home and I'mtalking about the plants, so
I've obviously had time and, ifyou think about it, luxury, to
be able to sit and listen tothem and receive their messages.
And I'm with my children, soit's going well.
I really do want to spend mylife listening.

(01:15:06):
And so I'm seeking out ways tobe supported.
There's not something that I'maware of set up out there, for
someone who communicates withthe plants.
And so I'm trying to create myown.
What I do is very valuable andit's also unique.
And I've been saying to myselflately, I live in a world where

(01:15:29):
I am greatly valued, incrediblyappreciated, loved and fully and
abundantly supported, simplybecause I am.
So I've made some shifts and I'mgoing to get my master's degree

(01:15:50):
in philosophy, religion,ecology, so that I can create my
own platform.
I'm just gonna pull myself achair up at the table, and start
creating a structure for myselfthat amplifies my voice,
hopefully, which can in turnamplify the voices of plants,

(01:16:13):
which is why I think that I'mhere.

Danu Poyner (01:16:15):
What you were saying about being valuable and
people not tapping thatresource, even though that's why
they want you there.
It's like you're a talisman, butthey don't do anything with it.
This has been my experience withthe world of formal education
and that's a whole other story,but I have essentially left that

(01:16:36):
and am building my own littletable and room on the side
because it just needs to bethought about differently.
it's become bigger thaneducation in the way you were
saying about, tell our stories.
It is about identity and a wayof being in the world and
saying, you are enough.
All of the grokkists who havesquiggly stories and ask too

(01:16:59):
many questions and lead withcuriosity for better or worse,
and who just burst with the needto learn and understand things
to their own detriment, we needa way of thinking about that,
that we can run towards ratherthan medicalize or frame in
language of how it appears as aproblem to others.
So that's what I'm trying to dowith Grokkist.

(01:17:22):
I should ask you, does the ideaof Grokkist resonate with you?

Amanda Nicole (01:17:26):
Well, I had never heard that term before until
you.
There's one part where youdescribe it as something like a
multidimensional hummingbird orsomething like that, but
flitting from one thing to thenext, that is very much my
person.
The little bit of this and alittle bit of that, and a little
bit of this and a little bit ofthat, mixing it together and
then that squiggly line.

(01:17:47):
And I used to feel so bad aboutit because my former partner, my
husband, just so linear.
It just seems like he decidedwas that, and that's what he
did.
And I've been all over the placeand I'm not finished squiggling,
So it does resonate.

Danu Poyner (01:18:03):
What we've talked about so much has been about
connecting with the essence ofsomething and in so doing,
having to move past theinstitutional shell of the thing
that is supposed to representthe essence, but actually is
often an obstacle.
So the essence is who I am, it'show I show up, it's what I do.

(01:18:24):
So what's the name of that thingthat we do in the world?
What's the name you give to thepractice?

Amanda Nicole (01:18:32):
It might be a boring answer, but as soon as
you said it, all I could thinkwas, listen, like listening is
my practice, and it's notlistening with the ears for me,
it's listening with my heart.
It's listening with this part ofme that is my essence.

(01:18:53):
That's it.
I am listening with my essence.

Danu Poyner (01:18:57):
Well, I think that's a fantastic answer.
Surely we live in a world thatcould do with more engagement
with the practice of listening.
There's a question I askeveryone who comes on the
podcast, which is, if you couldgift someone a life-changing
learning experience, what wouldit be and why?

Amanda Nicole (01:19:16):
this isn't gonna be very surprising, but I would
invite them to listen with me.
I would invite them to allow theplants to be their teachers.
That's what I've done and it haschanged my life.
Every aspect of it, even the wayI express myself.
My teacher, Matthew Wood, he didwrite a book, Seven Herbs, and

(01:19:42):
the subtitle is Plants asTeachers.
And that's what I'veexperienced.
So if anybody could have aneducational experience, it would
be to have a plant as a teacher.
To sit with it and be able tocommune with it and receive it
and hear it in a way where it isteaching you something about

(01:20:06):
yourself or your way of being,or the world or itself.
It takes us outside of what weknow, which is a good place to
be.

Amanda Nicole-3 (01:20:15):
What advice would you give to someone who
wanted to go a little further onthis journey then, of listening?

Amanda Nicole (01:20:24):
Well, I'm here.
They can always reach out to meand I don't mind at all, even if
it's just correspondence or tohave a session together.
But if they'd rather not, thenone of the things I could offer
is to just practice it.
Just practice listening.

(01:20:44):
So if there's a a tree thatyou're drawn to or a plant that
you're drawn to, or a river or aplace, a piece of land, then I
would encourage them to go andto take a notebook if they like,
try to get as quiet as you can,much as you can drop into your
heart space, maybe even placeyour hand over your heart if it
helps.

(01:21:04):
Then just open yourself toreceiving, which is a way of
saying to observe.
What do you see?
What do you hear?
What do you feel, what do youremember?
Does a plane fly overhead?
Take note of everything.
I had a teacher that called it asit spot.
So there's a place, a spot whereyou go regularly to sit and it's

(01:21:27):
just your sit spot and you startto get used to it and familiar
with it and you start to relaxand that helps you to open up
more to listening.
You don't even have to be withthe plant.
You can just simply sit withyour own heart.
Listen to your own heart, listento your own body, listen to your
dog.
It's just a way of saying, I'mgonna open up to receive.

Danu Poyner (01:21:49):
Is there anything else that you wanted to bring
today that we haven't had timeto cover that's important for

Amanda Nicole (01:21:56):
I do want to mention Entosophy, which is one
of my current projects.
Because I love it.
So Entosophy is where I'minterviewing primarily trees,
but also other non-human beings,and I'm asking them questions
that we received in the classwith Nathan, with the intro to

(01:22:19):
Philosophy and Environmentalactivism.
So what is ultimate reality?
What ethics flow from this viewof reality?
What policies you recommend?
What is the ideal society?
And then I ask them if they haveany further questions, and it's
beautiful.

(01:22:40):
I've never interacted with theplants in this way.
It's a different type ofconversation that I'm having
with them.
So I really do to invite peopleto read or listen to the
interviews.
They're very short, they're verydigestible, and they're very
lovely.
And from that I'm definitelygoing to be creating a book that

(01:23:01):
not just has the interviews init, but field notes and some
follow up questions and someother stories.
It's so important because thisvoice of the plants, it's not
heard.

Danu Poyner (01:23:13):
If you could go back through the same time
portal we talked about earlierand choose a moment to go have a
private conversation with youngAmanda, what moment would you
choose to encounter her and whatwould you say?

Amanda Nicole (01:23:25):
There is a place that I need to go back to, and
tell Amanda at that point,something about this moment.
You're going to feel lost, butyou're not.
And you're going to feel alone,but you're not.
And everything is going to turnout beautifully.
And I would want to remind herthat she is loved.

(01:23:49):
Because she's not going to feelthat way for most of this
journey.
When I was remembering the abusethat I experienced when I was
small, I was in a church serviceand they were going to have
communion or what they call theLord's Supper, and I actually
had to step outside the churchbuilding because in this moment

(01:24:09):
I closed my eyes and I sawmyself as a little girl in my
bedroom, and I had my backagainst the wall and there
wasn't anywhere to go.
This person was entering theroom and it wasn't going to go
well.
At that moment before communion,I saw myself there and Jesus was
standing behind me in mybedroom.

(01:24:30):
Jesus leaned down and said,everything is going to be okay.
I'm right here.
It gave me a lot of comfortbecause I do believe that we
really and truly aren't everalone.
And for myself, what washappening was for purpose.

(01:24:51):
It's part of why I was able towrite my book or why I'm able to
do what I do or feel what Ifeel.
And feel like that's what I'dwanna say to myself.
Everything is going to be okay.
I'm right here because who I amnow is who I was then.
I just didn't know it.

Danu Poyner (01:25:07):
You've gone through some pretty rough experiences
and dealt with a lot of traumasof different kinds, and you've
been able to retrieve somethingfrom each of those and take it
forward with you.
And you said you've appreciatedthings that you've been through,
and I just am very admiring ofthe receptive and wholehearted

(01:25:32):
way you are able to integratethe experiences of your life
into a whole person and a wholeway of being.
I think that has incrediblestrength and vulnerability to
it.
So I just really wanna thank youfor sharing your song, as it
were, today and I hope it willbe as meaningful to other people

(01:25:52):
listening as it has been for me,having the privilege of having
the conversation with you.
Do check out all of Amanda'sstuff.
We'll put links in the shownotes and thank you Invisible
listeners, and thank you,Amanda, and thank you blueberry.

Amanda Nicole (01:26:07):
Thank you Danu.
I enjoyed it.