Living life out of sequence, with engagement and experience leader Grace Liaw | S2E11 - Still Curious

Episode Transcript
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Grace Liaw (00:00):
My brother Dave, four years younger, sweet, sweet

(00:03):
kid.
I remember making fun of him.
I thought he wasn't very smart.
And I just thought, you knowwhat, you're probably gonna go
to community college and that,and I know that was a horrible
zing.
And then years later, when I was28, when I started to go back to
my undergrad studies, I chosecommunity college because it was

(00:24):
absolutely the most economicaloption, it made sense.
It was close to home, and itwould start me on my path
towards getting a degree.
When I started, I just thoughtI'm pretty sure I made fun of my
brother and guess who's the oneat community college now, and I
have a completely different viewof any of these life choices.
There should be no judgment onget to where they get to.

Danu Poyner (00:49):
You're listening to the Still Curious Podcast with
me, Danu Poyner.
My guest today is Grace Liaw,who describes herself as a
connector, educator and a globalcitizen in progress.
Today's conversation is allabout doing things in a
different way and order thanyou're supposed to.
It's about not doing what you'retold, leaning into life's sudden

(01:10):
twists and turns, feeling behindand taking flight, all while
figuring out adulting andnavigating the exciting
challenges, complexity, andexpectations of cultural
identity.

Grace Liaw (01:21):
There were a lot of unknowns about getting pregnant
really young.
I'll just say it, I might aswell.
That's what happened.
When that gets thrown into themix, you can't send that one
back.
We're very individualistic inthe Western culture.
We talk about, this is my life,this is your life.
That's your decision.
This is my decision.
When we think about anythingthat impacts one person, you're
impacting everyone around you.

(01:42):
That makes things morecomplicated and confusing.
Not everything ends up being achoice.

Grace talks about her life in two parts.
Unlike most of her peers, gracedid not start her undergraduate
studies until turning 28.
The typical path to successthrough college and career was
up-ended when she instead choseto start a family quite young.
And so the two halves are abouthow she left the path that had
been set for her, and how shelater came back to it in her own

(02:08):
unique way.

Grace Liaw (02:09):
I was in survival mode.
In actually starting schoolagain, and then trying to grow
my career, I always feel likeI'm behind and I hate being
behind.
I have something in my core thathas to do with getting out,
being able to fly, not wantingto be confined.
I want to be somewhere whereothers are or where I'm told not

(02:32):
to go.

Grace has a true teachers' passion for education.
And like many true teachers hasbristled against the constraints
of the school system.
After finally fulfilling herdreams of being a teacher.
Grace taught in New Jerseypublic schools for a couple of
years where she realized thatpublic education was not for
her.
She has since held manydifferent roles in and around
education, including living andworking in Shanghai, China for

(02:55):
six years in various privateschools.
Today Grace lives in New Yorkand works at Quantic School of
Business and Technology, whereshe designs and hosts events,
creates experiences and buildsrelationships with global
students.

Grace Liaw (03:09):
They tend to be curious.
I wanna give them what theywant, which is usually to meet
other people, to talk aboutthings that matter to them and
providing time and platform.
That's our version of playgroundnow.

As usual, this is a conversation that goes on all
sorts of tangents while beingpacked full of surprising
substance throughout.
We talk about getting tattoos inan Asian and Christian family,
teaching in the public schoolsystem.
The return on investment ofdifferent life choices,
competing with your kids and whywomen need to lift each other
up.
Enjoy, it's Grace Liaw coming upafter the music on today's

(03:42):
episode of the Still CuriousPodcast.

(04:11):
Hi grace, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you?

Grace Liaw (04:13):
I'm doing well.

Fantastic.
Very glad to hear it.
You describe yourself as aconnector, educator and global
citizen in progress.
You are currently the programexperience lead at Quantec
school of business andtechnology, a virtual business
school, where you design andhost events, create experiences
and build relationships withglobal students.

(04:36):
You're a qualified teacher withexperience in public and private
schools from New Jersey toShanghai.
You have a qualification inhuman ecology and family
studies, and you also have abunch of interesting hobbies,
including birding, bread making,and a love, hate relationship
with running.
What's the most important thingfor someone to understand about

(04:56):
you?

Grace Liaw (04:57):
I definitely am someone who is quite curious in
general about almost anything.
And I don't know if that comesfrom getting bored easily or
wanting to know something new ornot being able to sit still.
Ever since I was little is Iwant to be somewhere where
others are or where I'm told notto go.

(05:20):
I'm always looking to connectwith something, someone, or some
place.
And that is a constant driverfor all the things that I do.

Well, that's a great answer.
And I already need to ask youabout where is the most
interesting place you've been,where you've been told not to
go.

Grace Liaw (05:38):
So when I was about probably 3, 4, 4, 5 years old, I
remember this very vividly.
I was at a relatives house,family party, get together.
All the adults were eating andchatting in the backyard.
The kids are doing other thingsthat kids do.
So, me and my cousins.
Everyone was older than me.

(05:58):
They were probably only four orfive years older, maybe not
even.
I was the youngest one in thegroup of three or four children
just putzing around.
And I remember being outside andon the sidewalk of a road.
Very nice suburban neighborhood.
And across the street was alemonade stand that I guess the
neighbors set up and my oldercousins were all across the

(06:22):
street and I was the youngestone.
I am definitely sure my parentstold me don't cross the street.
The street was probably not eventhat big, but it looked like an
ocean across the way.
I just kept wanting to be wherethe big kids were and be where
the lemonade stand was.
I'm not sure if it was alemonade stand that I wanted, or
I just wanted to be part of thebig kids crowd.

(06:44):
I definitely knew I wasn'tallowed to cross the street.
My parents weren't watching, soI found myself across the street
somehow.
I crossed the street.
I didn't get hit by a car.
I do have a vague recollectionof being hunted down by my
parents because they realizedthat I was no longer where I was
supposed to be and being scoldedfor crossing the street.
That is probably the firstconcrete memory that I still

(07:05):
have today of me disobeying inthe my parents, but me pursuing
what I wanted to pursue, becauseI thought there were better
things for me.
At three or four years old, itwas pretty interesting to cross
a big road and get lemonade.

What a great story.
So is it one lemonade standafter another, since then?

Grace Liaw (07:24):
Yes, I'm going to write that down.
It's just been a life full oflemonade stands.

I can't wait to hear about all of those.
I need to ask you somethingabout birding.
It's not a term I've heardbefore.
Is there a difference betweenbirding and bird watching?
It sounds a lot more active,like you would seek out birds
rather than just identify themwhen they come past or
something.
Is that what you're doing?

Grace Liaw (07:48):
I almost feel like it's bird noticing.
It's not watching because birdsdon't stay still long enough for
you to really watch them.
I am just starting to scratchthe surface of this hobby, which
is very much a lifelong pursuitfor people who are really into
birds because there's so manyspecies.

(08:08):
We all have birds where we live,which is also very cool.
I hear them every morning, butyou just don't pay attention
because they're in thebackground.
But once I had that firstconversation with my colleague,
I started to look into it alittle bit.
And then of course, I ended updown a rabbit hole of what bird
watching is.
And I went on a bird watchingtour and I learned two more

(08:29):
species than I ever knew for myfirst four or five decades of my
life.
So then I started to noticethings.
And I realize, oh, not only arethere birds everywhere, but
there are more species of birdsthan I ever paid attention to.

We're off to a good start.
Normally, I would have todiscover a framing device for
the conversation as we go along,but you've already given me one
with lemonade stand and I'veheard you say you've gone about
your life in reverse compared toyour peers with family and
children coming first andcollege and career was something

(09:04):
to come back to later, if atall.
It's quite a departure from theusual playbook for a lot of
Asian American or migranthouseholds.
What can you tell me about that?

Grace Liaw (09:13):
For sure, just in the most basic way, it's the
reverse.
When I think about what it isthat families and parents and
caretakers care about with theirnext generation, the long goal
is always that our children canprovide for themselves and
thrive; have a good job, all ofthat.
I can't speak for all culturesaround the world, but I know

(09:36):
that for Chinese families, forinstance, so I'm Chinese
American, Chinese families, eastAsian families.
Education is first becausethat's the key to supposedly
unlocking success for thefuture, that will set you up,
that will equip you for all thethings that you need to provide
for yourself.
Provide for your family.
Provision is a very importanttheme in Asian families, and I'm

(09:58):
sure many other cultures.
So for my family and many ofthose families whom we grew up
around and with, it's just a nobrainer that you move up and
through the path of educationand through the stages as you
need to, primary school, middleschool, high school, college,
and university.
It never crossed my mind not togo, but I only realized much

(10:21):
later in life that not everyonegets to go, not everyone access
to go, but it was alwaysunderstood and seen and
witnessed that all the people Igrew up around everyone went to
study higher education becauseof this path that everyone
understood to be the one to besuccessful.
Our parents' generation and manyof those folks, they worked

(10:44):
their tails off to come to thestates to gain what they thought
was a high quality education todo all those things.
As children of immigrants, itwas just the norm that we would
all do this sequence of life.
When I got to that point and Iwas 18, 19 years old, things
changed and things happened andlife just takes a turn.

(11:06):
And before I knew it, I wastaking the family route instead
and left college.
My then husband and I, well, weweren't even married at that
point.
It was a sharp right turn andpretty big shock to the system.
We kept that path and we justchanged plans suddenly.
And so that set the newtrajectory for us.

(11:29):
I think that's important to tellbecause people would wonder, why
did you do it differently?
Well, it, it wasn't quiteplanned.
But even as plans change, thenwe have to go with it and keep
moving forward.
Therefore, children happenfirst.
School had to be put to theside.
Something else we inherited fromour parents' generation and our

(11:49):
culture really is the sense ofresponsibility.
If new responsibilities comeyour way, you pick it up and you
live up to thoseresponsibilities.
So that set me on a completelydifferent path.
We went forward with it and wejust kept moving forward.
The momentum never stopped.
It was just a change indirection.
So now looking back, it justlooks like a picture of
something flicked.

(12:09):
We continued on that path untilit was the right time to
consider whether education isstill on the table as an option.

It's quite clear how you've made sense of that
time in your life now, but Iimagine at the time it was
pretty momentous and less clearand I'm wondering, was everyone
with you?
How were you experiencing thatright turn Uh, at the time?

Grace Liaw (12:31):
It was hard.
Even as I say those words, itwas really hard.
It's three, four words.
But it definitely does notcapture what was going on in
that time for our lives at sucha young age.
It's set certain things in methat will be irreversible and I
can trace a lot of things backto that time of my life, because

(12:52):
of the young age and because ofbeing at a certain crossroad
when you're very soft in theunderbelly and you're just
young, you don't know.
18 is legally an adult.
That doesn't mean anything, butyou look like you're old enough
to make decisions.
But it's also all those aroundyou who are also not ready to
make certain decisions or thinkabout certain things.
In the modern world, we talkabout, this is my life.

(13:15):
This is your life.
That's your decision.
This is my decision.
We're very individualistic inthe Western culture, I'm talking
about the us for instance.
When we think about anythingthat impacts one person, you're
impacting everyone around you.
I think that complicates anykind of life decision or life
happening everything is adecision, not everything ends up

(13:36):
being a choice.
Life events will impact a lot ofpeople and that makes things
more complicated and confusing.

I like what you said about taking responsibility
and that sounds like a moment ofclarity.
That this is something that'shappening and now I'm going to
accept it as a responsibilityand clearly March forward in
this direction.

Grace Liaw (13:58):
I think when people are stressed and under a lot of
pressure or there's adversity,we will probably subconsciously
grab onto the thing that weknow.
What I did know, and I knowDavid, my husband at the time,
what we both knew when we wereyoung is we knew how to be
responsible because we weretaught that from very young.
There's certain things hardwiredinto us from our upbringing that

(14:19):
were natural.
Those things did make sense.
It was probably very importantat that time when there were a
lot of unknowns about gettingpregnant really young.
I'll just say it, I might aswell.
That's what happened.
We became pregnant while we werein college.
And when that gets thrown intothe mix, because you can't send
that one back, in order to makesense of trying to make a

(14:41):
decision on that, then what wasfamiliar was, okay, well, what's
the responsible thing to do.
What's the right thing to do.
If there is a right thing to do.
so Then we think about, what doour parents do?
What are they good at?
They're good at providing anddoing things that are sensible.
We just had to manage whatseemed like an unmanageable
situation with the few toolsthat we did have already.

Did that approach cost you, not just materially,
but in terms of socialrelationships and things at the
time.

Grace Liaw (15:09):
Most definitely.
we had to just fast track,responsible adulting.
We had to grow up so fast insome areas of our life, at the
exclusion of others.
Once you become a parent, yoursocial circle either becomes
other parents or actually blocksout a lot of your previous
relationships.

(15:29):
For us, it was a really obviouschange in our social network
because all of our friends werein college or starting their
first job.
Almost all of them were justsingle and doing the thing that
young people do.
And we immediately becameisolated because we were raising
children and working at the ageof 19, 20, 21.

(15:50):
That naturally changedfriendships.
There wasn't social media backthen we were still using
landlines back then.
So didn't see people.
And there were no zooms.
But even more than that, just tosee the psychological and
emotional separation foreveryone else, because we
suddenly became so different.
And anyone who had children ourage were like 10 years older

(16:14):
than us.
that created a divide as well.
I think we also just feltself-conscious or we felt
sensitive or are we gonna bejudged?
There were just all of thosethings I think that also
naturally pulled us away fromsocializing.
That has long term implications.
You have to socialize a puppyright in the first couple
months.
And if you don't, that's itthat's my dog, my dog does not

(16:36):
know how to get along with anydog because we didn't properly
socialize her.

You mentioned how everyone's on the same
trajectory and how you someonewho likes to be where others
are, and this experience seemsisolating, just that sense of
being out of sync with everyonecan't be easier.
I'm guessing a knock to yourconfidence about coming back to
college and career and thosethings as well.

(17:02):
How were you experiencing that?

Grace Liaw (17:04):
I do wonder sometimes now, decades later,
how I would've been different ifthings were different.
I've been thinking aboutconfidence and self worth, All
of those things.
I think I've always projectedmyself as confident.
That little grace, crossing theroad, she was reckless,

(17:24):
definitely confident, confidencebased on, I don't even know
what, like I'm just gonna go.
I think that's definitely partof me.
And somewhere along the years, Ithink it's quite normal for a
lot of us to lose footing on ourconfidence and question
ourselves.
The life circumstances around mylate teens and early twenties,
definitely shook my foundationmore than it would have if life

(17:47):
took on a more quote unquotenormal route.
But I think I manufactured a lotof confidence through that time.
I was in survival mode.
In actually starting schoolagain, and then trying to grow
my career.
I always feel like I'm behindand I hate being behind.
I like to do the thing that I'mtold not to do.
So, it's pretty complicated andI'm still trying to figure it

(18:08):
out.
I think the core of who I amhasn't changed, but the layers
and the shells and the versionsof me have evolved.
I'm not as confident as I thinkI am sometimes, isn't that an
imposter syndrome.
Isn't that what we all talkabout.

I think so.
It's quite a complicatedthought.
I'm not as confident as I thinkI am.
Let's talk a bit about thereentry into college and career
then.
you describe your life in twoparts, and I think that clear
division is interesting initself.
I'm wondering if you couldexplain, when did the second
half start for you and whatdrove that.

Grace Liaw (18:43):
I think there are at least two layers to us.
There might be multiple.
If we imagine my emotional selfas on one track or one layer,
and then my external self, Iguess, the one who gets up every
morning, the one who types awayat her computer, the one who's
getting a job.
Between my two selves in thesame person, I think the

(19:04):
adulting part of me, because Istarted very early, I reached a
certain point in that soonerthan a lot of other people.
I think I hit my midlife inquotes, probably in my early
forties or thirties.
I thought I was mature.
I thought I had done everything.
And I think that one was in someways ready for the second half

(19:25):
of life, whatever that meant.
But I now know that there wasanother part of me that didn't
catch up yet, which is theemotional self.
She was very far behind becauseof starting early in life and
not having a chance to grow upin certain ways.
There were some parts of us thatnever saw the light of day that
never got to socialize properly.
Never got to understand whatit's like to interact with

(19:45):
people in an emotionally healthyway.
That part of me has taken muchlonger to catch up, but now, I'm
kind of midlife.
I feel like the two selves are alittle bit more aligned now.
Even a few years back when Istarted to use that first half,
second half of life description,it was because I read a book by

(20:06):
Richard Rohr called FallingUpwards.
Rohr is a Franciscan monk, likea modern day monk.
That was where I had the firstunderstanding that there is a
first and second half of lifeus.
Mostly emotional and spiritual,but practically speaking as
well.
So ever since I read that, Istarted to think about it a lot
and picture my life, what was myfirst half like, and what will

(20:30):
my second half be?
Now I think about it all thetime, because I think I finally
caught up a little bit and Ithink I actually cleanly look to
my second half of life, career,relationships, relationship with
myself.
What's my half of life going tobe, my contribution to the
world, all of those things.

You went to community college at some point
and I would have guessed thatwould be a moment, but I imagine
there's some context around.

Grace Liaw (20:59):
Yes.
Going to community college,first of all, was never in the
plans.
It was not an option when I wasmuch younger, say 10, 12 years
old.
I have three younger siblings.
The one right after me is mybrother Dave, four years younger
and sweet, sweet kid.
And I remember making fun ofhim.
I guess, for a second, I thoughthe, wasn't very smart.

(21:20):
And I just thought, you knowwhat, you're probably gonna go
to community college and that,and I know that was a horrible
zing.
And then years later, when I was28, when I started to plan and
go back to college or start myundergrad studies.
And I chose community collegebecause it was absolutely the

(21:41):
most economical option, it madesense.
It was close to home, and itwould start me on my path
towards getting a degree.
When I started, I just thoughtI'm pretty sure I made fun of my
brother and guess who's the oneat community college now, and I
have a completely different viewof any of these life choices.
There should be no judgment onget to where they get to.

(22:03):
I think the first half of life Ihad multiple chapters.
That would've been a moment ofrealization that, wow, it's
taking me this long just tostart something that everyone
else did 10 years ago, but also,wow, I get to do this now.
There's always two sides to allthese coins where there's a
positive and a negative.
So that was a great time for me,that set me on a really nice

(22:26):
trajectory to what felt likereclaiming lost time lost
opportunity I don't know thatcommunity colleges are the same,
or if there are communitycolleges in all countries or
junior colleges.
But they are just like miniuniversities.
They are usually two yearprograms.
They are tertiary courses andprograms and degrees.

(22:46):
I registered and I startedtaking part-time courses.
I was very practical, verypragmatic at that time.
I had been parent for many yearsWhen you're raising a family or
just living with a family, oneof the first things is like, can
I commute there?
Is it going to be expensive?
Is the facility nice?
It ticked all of those boxes.
But what made it a really greatexperience?

(23:09):
It was just like any school, itwas because I was ready.
I was sitting at the front ofthe classroom.
I didn't care.
In high school you could neversit in the front for, in the You
just didn't do that.
But at the age of 28, it didn'tmatter to me.
I was there for the education.
That's an adulting choice.
Once a choice like that, it'sbound good experience because I

(23:30):
chose to do it.
I just soaked it up.
I felt great about it.
It was my choice.
It didn't cost a lot.
It was a great return oninvestment.

This is a phrase I hear you use a bit, return on
investment, which I guess isconnected to what you were just
saying about being verypractical.
Is that how you think about thechapters that you go through?

Grace Liaw (23:51):
In order to gain education and knowledge, you do
have to spend money, tuitiontime.
When it comes to those thingsthat you can see that are very
tangible, it is easy to use thatframework of, was this a good
use of time and money?
My whole undergrad studies,including the community college
portion, which was the first twoyears after which I decided,

(24:14):
okay, I can now go ahead andtransfer to a four year college
and get my bachelor's.
I was hesitant at first, I wasafraid that I wouldn't be able
to finish.
That's another reason why I didthe community college because I
was scared that we wouldn't haveenough money or what if I didn't
like it, or if I couldn't committo it.
Once I decided that I wanted tocomplete my bachelor's degree, I

(24:35):
also went about it in aspractical a way as possible.
I applied to a university, notvery far.
Not one I would've chosen when Iwas 18.
I would've wanted something moreprestigious, or with a bigger
name, which is silly, right.
I applied and I applied for ascholarship.
I did my entire undergradstudies spending maybe 10 to

(24:55):
12,000 us dollars, which in theus is hard to come by.
It was still a lot of money forus, but it was great.
And I'm really proud of it.
I love talking about it.
I'm like, you don't need tospend a hundred thousand dollars
to get a degree.

danu_poyner (25:08):
It sounds like a very transformative experience.
What were you studying actually.

Grace Liaw (25:13):
I wanted to become a teacher.
In the state of New Jersey,there weren't too many programs
that were strictly educationwhere you got their degree and
your certification, becausecertification was always
separate.
In addition to whatever degreeyou had.
The department was humanecology, there was an education
track in there.
Ultimately the end goal was tobecome a teacher, which was

(25:34):
always what I've thought Iwanted to do.
I used to think I could teachright now, why do I need a
degree?
But of course you have to go toand be highly qualified.
so that's how I ended upchoosing the program that I did
for the right school, the rightplace for the right price and
would get me to where I neededto go.

When you had that qualification, did that change
your view of what teaching was?
Or did you still have thethought yeah, I could have done
this in the first place?

Grace Liaw (26:03):
The learning that I had the program I was in, it
was, it was good because Iapplied myself.
I think, I don't know that itwas necessarily because the
content was out of this world.
I was going in the instructionalroute.
So it was a lot of theory.
I know that we have to gothrough that.
But maybe more important to talkabout was the qualification,

(26:25):
because that is the stamp ofapproval that you are smart
enough to our next generation.
That's what it's supposed to be.
You can't teach in the publicschools in the us without a
state certification, and we haveto take a test called the Praxis
test PR a X I S.
I was going the route of generaleducation for elementary.

(26:46):
So not super rigorous.
It's a very generalisteducation.
I took the Praxis and I scoredhigh enough to pass.
When I think back about mypreparation in undergrad and
then what was required of me inorder to qualify for teaching, I
don't feel like much was askedof me.
I would've thought that theworld would've wanted more from

(27:07):
me cuz I'm not the hardestworking student.
I'm not out there to be anoverachiever.
I'll just be honest.
When I think about our publiceducation system in general, as
teachers, I think more needs tobe asked of us.
plenty of incredible teachersand there are plenty of not
great it's not even that'scomplicated.

(27:28):
It's not of how intelligent theyare or how great their
instructional prowes is.
As one, who's been a classroomteacher, I know how hard it is.
It's incredibly difficult to runa classroom.
Is exhausting.
So I will never encroach on ateacher's territory and question
them unless something isalarming.
They have to do their job andI'm happy they're doing their

(27:49):
job teaching my kids, but I alsohave the lens of, not sure
they're learning that much.
That's kinda complicated.
And then I was a teacher and Ithink was I good enough to be a
really good teacher?
Or did I just get by, throughthe system?

I do hear this very qualified language in the way
that you talk about education ingeneral.
I'm hearing through experience,a lot of healthy skepticism
perhaps of how it all works.

Grace Liaw (28:18):
That would be a good description, but maybe I just
have a healthy skepticism abouteverything.
question everything.
Because I don't always believewhat I'm told.
And is that a good thing?
I don't know.
I usually have to test it out tosee if it's indeed what they say
it is.
I don't know if it's nature ornurture.

(28:39):
I don't know if it's just who Iam or if life has shaped me to
be that way.

Well, it sounded

like it was there in pretty good shape at five.
You only have an authentic,understanding of something by
experiencing it is what I'mhearing through this, and that's
how you can make up your mindabout things.
I'm curious now with that inmind to ask you about your
experience of being a teacher,it was something that you'd
wanted for a long time, andyou'd gone through a lot to get
it, and you really intentionaland really ready for it.

(29:08):
What happened?
How was it?

Grace Liaw (29:10):
The things I loved about classroom teaching is that
room became my universe.
It was an economy, it was acommunity, it was a household.
It was like running a smallbusiness.
There was so much about theclassroom experience that really
appealed to me.
Not just because I'm a littlebossy, but because I felt like I
really had responsibility overthe lives of these children.

(29:34):
And there was such a holisticfeeling about it.
And the fact that thosechildren, 1920 of them were
looking to me for guidance was athrilling feeling.
There's a lot of ego in there,as being the keeper of knowledge
and the keeper of the day.
But you're also many other hats,too.
You are a counselor, you are aSergeant.

(29:56):
You are a parent.
My experience was great but Iwas working in the public
education system I found thatthe system didn't work for me.
Sometimes it was the curriculumI would think this is not going
to teach my student or do I haveto stay with this because I
think so and so really needsthis.
I was very keen to meet theneeds of the students.

(30:19):
It was really important to methat I was teaching all of them,
but also teaching each of themindividually and that's a really
interesting balance to try tostrike as not just a teacher,
but just a leader or a parent.
You wanna meet the needs ofeveryone, but you also wanna be
very personalized.
That was hard to do in a publicschool system because we had a
prescriptive curriculum, there'sstate testing, their national

(30:43):
standards to meet.
I wouldn't say everyone, but ifyou're going to last a long time
in the public school system,you're going to have to just
resign yourself to certainthings and not question it.
I very long I didn't last verylong in the public school
system.
And even in my own classroom, Ijust did things differently.
I used to wonder, I'm like,what's wrong with me?
Why can't I just do what otherpeople do?

(31:05):
Sometimes it's because I think Ido know better.
I think I know what my studentsneed, or I just like to be
different.
I definitely have a verycreative side that I didn't
really realize until veryrecently.
And that's part of what makes methrive and do well where I get
to be creative and a little bitdifferent.
I only worked in the publicschool system for two years, I

(31:26):
think.
It was wonderful because itstretched me so much.
I worked so hard.
I was up at all hours, gradingpapers, trying to manage a
classroom.
Again, hats off to classroomteachers, especially primary
school teachers.
It's like a show from the momentthey walk in that classroom all
the way to the end of the day,they are switched on the entire

(31:49):
time.

Then you spent some time in Shanghai, in private
schools.
Is that right?

Grace Liaw (31:55):
There were some years in between where I just
did other jobs.
I was running the scene behindthe curtains of a church
actually, it's a little bit of adetour, but, Churches are like
running a family in a businessall in one.
That was for about two years.
And then our entire family,through a series of interesting
decisions and discoveries, weeventually went to Shanghai,

(32:18):
China a few years later.
So, classroom teaching in publicschools, a break and then
straight to China picked up andleft our entire lives that we've
known only in New Jersey fordecades.
I went to a private school thereand that just opened my world up
entirely.

(32:38):
Well, huge part because I was ina completely different country,
working in a private schoolversus a public school.
And it was a much moreinternational student body.
Everything was different it wasa learning curve, but very, very
exciting.

so was that move, another sudden right turn or was
it something and on purpose?
How did that come about?

Grace Liaw (33:04):
The way it happened was my older son at the time,
had just graduated from highschool and he applied to
universities, but he reallywasn't ready to go.
Or at least we didn't think so.
So we sent him on a gap year andthe gap year was going to be in
Shanghai, China, and he wouldspend a semester a year there
studying Chinese and that's it.

(33:24):
And just hanging out.
We went to visit him.
And that was our first time as afamily.
I had never been to Chinabefore.
So when I went there, and thesewere just happy coincidences, we
met a friend of our friend whowas ahead of school at a school
there.
and she said, oh, do you wannacome work here?
and I couldn't let it go afterthat.

(33:46):
I just started thinking, oh mygoodness, I think our family
could use a change of scenery.
We've been the us all this time,we've stayed in the same place
for decades.
I didn't know what I wanted todo with my career because I left
teaching, but still wanted togrow that part of my career.
There were a million questionsgoing on my mind and I think I
was primed for change.

(34:07):
I just took this as a sign fromthe universe, I saw it as a
lemonade stand that I wanted tocheck out.
So coming back from that trip tovisiting our son in Shanghai, I
came home and I just could notstop thinking about it.
A year later and opportunitypresented itself, we moved to
China then.

(34:27):
I, started working at the schoolthat I had run into that first
trip.
A lot of my family members werenot keen for me to do it.
There was some opposition, somequestioning, is this a good
idea?
I still went ahead with it andmy life's never been the same
since.

What was it like spending time in as a Chinese
American and you mentioned youhadn't been there before, what
was that like?

Grace Liaw (34:50):
It was so interesting.
I had always thought I wasChinese living here.
I speak Mandarin.
I understand Mandarin.
I don't read and write anymore.
I had learned as a child, so I'mnot fully fluent in that sense.
When we arrive to Shanghai,which by the way is a first tier
city in China.
So it's not going to get easierthan that city, it's very well

(35:14):
established.
Economically it's strong.
There are a lot of foreignersthere, but it's still China.
I realized, oh, I'm not reallyChinese.
I can't read the signs.
Even maybe I look like I couldbe blending in with the
majority, but I was definitelynot.
When you move to a completelyforeign country, that's not as

(35:35):
well developed as first worldcountries like the us,
everything is a challenge.
Everything is something tofigure out down to which way to
walk in a station.
You're on high alert the wholetime.
It's like nothing else.
You can't experience that inyour own home country in any
way, but it's also, what'sreally exciting.

(35:56):
It was exhausting, but it waschallenging.
And so every time you're able toovercome a challenge or I'm able
to order a meal, or I'm able toget my change back with buying
something or I'm able to find aplumber to come fix something.
There was a huge sense ofachievement every single time.
But what also happened just asmuch and if not more, were all

(36:19):
failures.
It's such a humbling experienceto go overseas, not as a
tourist, but to actually livethere is a thing than being a
tourist.
And it's a very humblingexperience.

So how long did it take you to get that sense of,
well the small wins of masteryof ordering something with
confidence?

Grace Liaw (36:38):
I remember reading that if you're an expat, it'll
take you two solid years ofliving to feel like I can do
more than survive.
I would say that's fair.
I think it did take the firstcouple years for me to be able
to wake up and think I know whatI'm gonna do with my day, and I
know who I'm going to go see,and I know how to get there and

(36:58):
I don't have to freak out.
We were expats for the firstcouple years, and then as you
continue to keep living in aforeign country, and very
importantly is to immerseyourself as much as possible in
the local culture, because it'svery easy to separate oneself as
a foreigner.
You just hang out with peoplewho are other English speakers
and you don't talk to locals.
But we were pretty intentionaland wanted to walk down the

(37:22):
little local streets and justtalk to random people.
Then we became half pets afterthe first two years.
I wanted to think that we weremore half pat than expat.
that part was very enjoyable.
we were really proud of how muchwe were stretched and able to
comfortable.

So, being full pats wasn't on the cards, I take it.
How far does this go?
You were there for what?
Six years is it?

Grace Liaw (37:49):
Once you've worked so hard to try to even survive.
Then you wanna enjoy havinggotten past that first stage.
it stretched out to six, sevenyears.
And part of that is also becauseworking in education, especially
in China was great.
A foreigner in an internationalschool or even a private Chinese

(38:10):
school, which is different,you're rock stars doesn't wanna
be a rockstar?

What do you think is the biggest difference
between the teaching you weredoing in Shanghai versus in the
public system?

Grace Liaw (38:22):
The school that I was in it was a private Chinese
school.
The government was, maybe notpart owner, but they would
oversee aspects of the school.
So When we talk about publicschools in the us, there is the
state involved or there'saccountability from the
government, but in China, thatkind of accountability actually
looks quite different and it'smore controlling actually.

(38:44):
But anyway, I was in a Chineseprivate school that ran a
Western education.
The primary school used Americancurriculum, Texas or California,
I don't remember.
And so they would import all ofthe textbooks and material and
lots of foreign teachers.
The student body, they were allforeign students, but they were

(39:06):
almost all Asian students.
So they came from Malaysia,Taiwan, Korea, and these are
families that came to China forwork purposes.
I was in a Chinese school withAmerican curriculum, teaching
non Chinese, Asian and with thestaff of primarily American

(39:31):
teachers and administrators plussome Chinese administrators.
different than what we had instates.
Because this is not the us andthese schools are hungry for
foreign talent.
It's not easy to get reallygreat foreign teachers or
administrators.
So when they have us, they'renot super strict as far as for

(39:53):
our supervising what we do.
basically I could do whatever Iwanted in my classroom, within
the bounds of being a goodteacher, plus the students were
amazing students.
These were the loveliest fourthgraders.
I was teaching fourth gradeThese were children coming from
families that were actually welleducated professional working

(40:14):
parents, who were in a foreigncountry and humble, polite,
courteous, they respectedteachers.
a lot to do with the culturesthere are coming from.
It's a very different field thanbeing in America where the
customer's always right.
And everything gets questioned.
That didn't happen where I was.
So I had freedom to teach as Iwanted to teach.

(40:37):
And I had these lovely familiesand children who were also
hardworking, courteous, kind,and generous respected teachers.
So it really didn't get betterthan that.
Those were probably some of mybest years, as far as experience
in the school.

Amazing.
I think that sounds like sewingseeds of a lot of cultural
intelligence work, anengagement, which has been a bit
of a theme since then, I thinkfor you.

Grace Liaw (41:03):
Until I went to China, I lived in a very
prescribed bubble for my wholelife.
And even though I come from abicultural background, I have my
American side and I have myChinese side, but it wasn't
until I left and went to acompletely.
space and stay there long enoughand orient in myself around so

(41:24):
many different people who I Icouldn't always communicate
with.
It shakes your confidence, butin a good way, I think.
It keeps us on our toes.
When you pause long enough, youstart to realize there's so many
amazing people that I didn't getto know when I was growing up.
Even the children that I met,they all had Asian faces, but
they were all different.
They were from Singapore, fromJapan.

(41:46):
And they all had these littlenuances about them that were
very cultural.
Those years in China, I thinkexpanded my sensitivity, but
made me realize how little Iknew, but I wanted to know more.
That set me on the path of beingmore interested in people, not
like me than being interested inpeople like me.

That's a good answer.
So what happened next?
What was the next lemonadestand?

Grace Liaw (42:12):
I was in China, but all my family members were home
in the states.
I knew sooner or later I'd haveto come home.
So I tried to make my way backto the states, I knew it would
be difficult because so manyyears have passed and I had
become another version of myselfoverseas.
I knew that coming back wouldnot feel like coming back.

(42:33):
It would be like entering awhole new era.
I had read that repatriating canbe difficult.
Because when you go back to youroriginal culture, some things
will feel very familiar veryquickly, but other things will
feel weird because you had beenout of touch for six, seven
years.
I didn't even know who waspopular anymore.
And because I was in China, alot of things were blocked

(42:54):
actually.
Watching YouTube was difficult.
Facebook was blocked.
There were a lot of things aboutliving in China that just became
a different bubble.
Trying to transition back intothe states culturally,
emotionally was a journey.
And then probably the mostdifficult was career wise.
Because I really liked my job inChina.

(43:16):
I think if I had stayed inChina, I would've moved up.
I would've made more money.
I would've been in a higherrole, I might've been, maybe
vice principal.
That was the trajectory I wasgoing to go in, school
leadership, but wanting to comeback to the states and finding
work and shifting the career,those were some interesting
choices because I didn't wannago to public school.

(43:37):
I didn't even necessarily wantto go back into a school, but I
didn't know what else qualifiedfor.
I had these years in China whereI was a teacher, a student
affairs director, and then evena Dean for a short time.
Those qualifications lookedpretty good, but they were in
China.
Someone in the states, itregister.

(43:57):
It was almost as if it was a gapin my that really hard to
accept.
Before I left China, I startedexploring being a private
consultant to families andchildren because, those who have
the resources for it, who havethe financial means China, other
Asian countries, too Korea,where everyone wants to go to

(44:20):
states.
It's just like my parentswanting to come many years ago.
Everyone has the American dream.
They love heading west and theywant their kids to go to
university in the us or evenhigh school.
So I thought, okay, well, I grewup there.
I know what the education like.
I have a lot of parents whomI've met and I know their kids

(44:42):
are probably going to be sentoverseas.
So why don't I become thisbridge or consultant for them.
I explored that for a coupleyears, and that was interesting
and difficult because I steppedout of a structured setting of a
school and became anentrepreneur basically, when I
had no sense of how to do that,it was just a lot of random

(45:04):
conversations and like, Hey, Iprobably can help you your
child, but it was a lot ofclumsy figuring out how to be a
consultant, how to chargepeople, money, stuff.
And then that's when I startedtransition back to the states
and I thought, could I still dothis while I'm back in the
states, it didn't make enoughmoney.

(45:25):
So then I thought, okay, I needto find a stable job.
As I was job searching, I'mthinking I have a pretty good
resume.
But when I started to explorethe job market in the states, I
realized it's changed since Ileft.
There are different titles outthere that I didn't know
existed.
There are roles that maybe aresimilar to the ones that I've
seen in the past, but they justhave different names now.

(45:48):
It was a real struggle to knowwhere to look and what to look
for and what matched up with myskills beyond just classroom
teaching because I didn't wannago back to classroom teaching.
So that was a couple years, ittook much longer than I thought
it would.
And my confidence was definitelytaken for a ride.

Mm, interesting.
Well, let's bring this into thepresent now then Experience lead
at a virtual business schoollike a role that didn't exist 20
years ago.
So draw me a line.
How do we get here?

Grace Liaw (46:21):
Okay.
So I was pretty lost.
I felt like I had to step downor sideways to find something,
to enter back into the jobmarket.
And I stumbled upon this role atQuantec admissions
representative.
This one was different thanother job applications because
they required a video submissionand I'm like, oh, that's
interesting.
And I did it.

(46:41):
And fortunately, they liked itand they hired me to be
admissions representative.
I did it for a year.
I've had tons of practiceinterviewing people in a short
span of time.
So it was a very interesting,very targeted skill set that I
had to sharpen.
By the end of one year, I haddone over a thousand interviews.

(47:02):
It wasn't even a full-time job.
It was actually prettyexhausting it was like putting
on a show every single time.
While I loved it, it wasn'tenough for me.
So I was just fortunate thatthere was an opening on the
engagement team.
And because I liked the company,I just wanted to stay within the
organization, but just trysomething different.
And so I was fortunate.
I applied for that role.
They said yes to me.

(47:23):
So I became an engagementcoordinator.
And that's a combination ofhosting events and student
support.
It's been over a year and a halfand recently my shift to the
role, program experience lead,grew out of my work as an
engagement coordinator.
because we interact so closelywith students or as closely as

(47:44):
possible for a virtual program.
My natural senses as a classroomteacher were play quite a bit in
my engagement coordinator role.
And that just allowed me to havea keen pulse on what the student
experience was like and alsoseeing where there might be
places to improve.
I don't like to stay in one rolefor too long.
Either I'm I move up or I movesideways or I span out my

(48:07):
influence.
So this title and this role cameabout through conversations with
the company.
It wasn't the position thatexisted in the form that it is.
And I think we're still figuringout what it is.
Which is really, really cool forme.
I haven't been in a place whereI get to be a part architect of
what my job might look likegoing forward.

(48:30):
I'm pretty excited about it.
We'll see how I do.

I think we all know how you'll do, but I can't wait
to see it play out.
One of my favorite questions toask people on the podcast is how
to explain something as if to a10 year old.
So can you tell me what

engagement is?

Explain it to a 10 year old.

Grace Liaw (48:47):
It's to occupy, attract and involve someone's
attention or interest.
Our team is about drawing peoplein and getting them somehow
actively involved and toparticipate.
You're going to listen and speakand maybe do something with your
hands because of something I'masking you to do making you

(49:09):
interested in doing.
Our job is to think about anddesign events that will allow
for you to want to engage.
It's going to make you want tojoin us.

want to dive into a little bit about the mechanics
of that.
But I think first we shouldexplain what Quantec is.
We've called it a virtualbusiness school, but what does
that mean?

Grace Liaw (49:32):
Quantec school of business and technology is the
full name of the school.
Of course, when we think of theword school, we're all picturing
a building in our head.
We're all picturing a classroomin our head.
But Quantic is a hundred percentonline.
And we like to describe ourselfas a mobile first learning
program.
Unless they're attending one ofour in-person events, our

(49:53):
thousands and thousands ofstudents never see each other.
They're completely using eithertheir phone app, we have an app
that has all the course content,or we're meeting them on zoom if
they attend those meetings.
But, we're a virtual businessprogram.
Right now, we only have an MBAand an executive MBA program.

(50:14):
will have more programs in thefuture, but right now those are
our flagship programs.
This is really key to Quanticand part of the draw, part of
what I love about this program,is that, because it's a hundred
percent virtual, it's possiblefor us to have students from
everywhere.
Across the globe.

(50:35):
And to know that my virtualclassroom cohort is composed of
people from all different timezones and languages is mind
blowing.

Your kingdom is the whole world now, is that what
you're telling me?

Grace Liaw (50:50):
Yes.
I think that's the revelation.
My goal in life is to have myfingers as big of a classroom as
possible.
That's what Quantec is right nowand the model will be replicated
into other programs because itis a great model.
It does work and our students doreally enjoy it.

I'm someone who a bit like you as an Explorer and
likes to sus things out by doingthem.
And, I have been through thisprogram.
It's very good.
And, it's probably the bestschool experience I've ever had.

Grace Liaw (51:24):
That's a big thing to say.
That's big.

I think, a lot of the things I have struggled with
with education around thestrictness of the curriculum and
the shutting down, and justboring, right.
A lot of it and expensive andthe ROI isn't there.
So, I've just saw reallyintentional design

in Quantec to be, as

you said, mobile first.
It's a reimagined thing.
It's virtual, it's affordable.
And I thought, Hmm, this seemsdisruptive.
Is this the kind of thing thatreally what it says, so I better
do it and find out.
So I did, and it is so, that'smy conclusion.

Grace Liaw (52:03):
Awesome.
I did have a healthy skepticismcoming in when I first joined
the company.
My educator lens was no one canlearn like this.
This is nice.
But can someone really gainknowledge from something that
has no teacher, there's nodirect contact with professors
you're not in the classroom.

(52:23):
Is that possible to still gethigh quality education?
So I definitely questioned it.
I did eventually do the programmyself and then moving into the
engagement team role, allowed meto actually hear and witness and
observe what the students wereresponding to.
And I realized that it's noteven about better or worse is
just different different is whatthe order is.

(52:46):
It what's required.
And so our students do gainquite a bit from it.

tends to attract people who explorers and looking
for something different.
A large part of what has beenreally enjoyable for me is I've
met lots of weird people.

Grace Liaw (53:02):
Right.
some really interesting people.
it Takes a certain kind of driveand type of adults to go with a
program that's still relativelyyoung.
In a form that they did not growup with, and to take a leap of
faith that this is going to bethe program that's going to
work.
When I used to interview peopleand admissions, they ask all

(53:24):
these questions.
So is it as good as Harvard, andI'm like, you're just gonna have
to find out because, I don'tthink it's as simple as saying
something is like somethingelse.
It's not everyone, but for theright people, it's the exact
right choice.

That leads me to my next question then, which is
about what it means to create afantastic student experience in
your role, because it's fullyremote.
It's all over the world.
These are busy, high achievingpeople, who, one of the reasons
why they're doing it is cuz it'sconvenient and they can do it on
their phones and things.

(53:59):
So what does that mean, afantastic student experience, in
this context?

Grace Liaw (54:04):
Specific to our program and the nature of our
program and the nature of ourstudent community, I think that
we're co-authors in theexperience because so much of it
is virtual.
We're not standing in front ofpeople.
We're not holding their handthrough an experience.
We're not a theme park.
There's a natural divide that wehave to remember that exists

(54:25):
that people are calling inremotely.
I think we have to do justenough to engage their interest,
to provide topics that feelrelevant to them, that will
enrich their learning and thengive the students space to
interact with each other.
All those pieces together havethe potential to create a really
great experience for students.

(54:46):
These are adults who are verybusy and if they can carve out
an hour to join one of ouroptional meetups, I'll do
everything in my power to givethem something that I think they
want.
Knowing what they want is aboutlistening and paying attention
and constantly adapting.
As much as I can, I wanna givethem what they want, which is
usually to meet other people, totalk about things that matter to

(55:08):
them and providing time andplatform.
That's our version of playgroundnow.
I think once those pieces are inthe recipe, the chances of
something being a really greatexperience is a little bit
higher if we didn't think aboutall those different pieces.
It's a certain type of personwho joins this program.

(55:30):
They tend to be curious.
I found that our students, whenthey do join experiences or
events, they bring a huge partof that experience to us because
of who they are.
They're a key player in theirown experience.

I like this idea of making space.
That's a nice way of thinkingabout it because these things
are optional.
They're not part of assessmentor anything like that.
So it's highly voluntary.
What brings people into that is,as you say, wanting to meet
other people and connect oversomething.

Grace Liaw (56:00):
I think so.
And I think it keeps changing.
The customer keeps changing andchanging very quickly,
especially online, especiallyvirtually.
People make decisionsdifferently than they did two
years ago.
The role I'm in now is to to howare people changing so that we
can adjust what we're doing sothat it feels like we're still

(56:21):
delivering consistentexperience.

You mentioned earlier about your approach to
the classroom, to teacheveryone, but also each person,
how does that translate to whatyou're doing now?

Grace Liaw (56:36):
it would be similar to the classroom experience.
Our job to deliver a similarexperience to everyone, we
establish a certain structure.
We onboard the cohorts a certainway.
We message things a certain way.
We're constantly adjusting.
We're always trying to figureout, Did they need this
instruction?

(56:56):
Did they need to have thismeeting earlier?
Where we meet the needs of thewhole program or cohort is to
guide the whole group properly.
As the teacher or cohortcoordinator leader, whoever's
the caretaker of these students,we have to keep our radar up for

(57:16):
what looks different right now.
What is so and so saying, andwhy are they saying that?
And to take that time, it couldjust be seconds sometimes.
And in our case it might be aslack message or answering a
question a certain way.
That's where we get to meet thatindividual where they are.
I don't think it necessarilymeans I have to go to every
single student and say, Hey, areyou okay?

(57:38):
That would be amazing but itwould be very, very difficult
because we have hundreds ofstudents in one cohort, we have
new cohorts every six weeks.
So the next best thing is toreally pay attention to their
questions, which is often whatis the first signal that someone
is trying to say something tous.
So great structure, greatinstructions.

(57:59):
Great messaging.
Communication is the main waythat we can show that we are
taking care of the whole, butit's the personalization and the
small things that we doindividually.
Like birding, you gottaattention to the birds that are
flying by.

yeah, yeah.
Oh, okay.
So it's about noticing things.
What have you noticed as being acommon unspoken need or
experience that people arehaving that they want something
from engagement?

Grace Liaw (58:26):
Our students are parents, entrepreneurs.
They are leaders in theirbusiness, they're all kinds of
different personas of verycapable and eager to learn
adults.
I think there's quite a bit ofhumility in the students as a
whole, so they don't ask formuch, they're pretty happy with

(58:47):
just being able to learn ontheir own time with flexibility,
but where we come in and canelevate their experience, more
often than not they're surprisedwhen we say something a little
extra.
and I respond to the question Igive'em the information.
And they say, I hope that helps,have a great day.
I think a virtual smile or avirtual acknowledgement, even

(59:11):
the smallest ones make adifference in the experience.
And they remember that becausewe're virtual.
So that's all can exist.

I know what you mean.
We're all doing this remote worknow and having jobs where we
never meet our colleagues.
We have to find forms of thatsocial interaction and
hospitality through thesedigital mediums that are not
just transplanted from thephysical world, but actually
also need to be reimagined forthat space.

Grace Liaw (59:37):
Absolutely.

I'm struck by something you said right at the
start about feeling like you'rebehind.
Now that your classroom is thewhole world and you are co
imagining a new playground.
Do you still have that feelingabout being behind?

Grace Liaw (59:51):
Not too long ago, I was still feeling very behind,
because I noticed that as I getolder, the workplace is young
and I have to restructure myschema of what normal looks
like.
It's not just the people who areolder, who are higher of
management.
A lot of the rules that existedin my mind my first half of life

(01:00:14):
really need to be thrown out thewindow in order for me to thrive
better in this second half oflife.
I can't redo anything in thepast.
So this most recent opportunityto co-create this role and
having some more playground.
And now through conversationswith you, realizing that my
classroom is the whole world,it's given me a lot of hope and

(01:00:36):
a lot to look forward to.

Danu Poyner (01:00:37):
I do feel like I've caught you in a reflective mood,
which is good.
So I should ask you thesignature question of the
podcast, which is, uh, what is alife changing, learning
experience you would gift tosomeone and why?

Grace Liaw (01:00:51):
I know it's not possible with everyone's
resources, but going to adifferent country is guaranteed
to transform anybody.
It's not so much about thecountry.
It's about leaving home, reallyleaving home.
Not next door to the town nextto you, but to put yourself in a
completely foreign environmentfor an extended period of time.

(01:01:13):
That one will stretch you inways that you couldn't possibly
experience in a familiar settingand transform you and show you
what you're capable of, that youcan do much more than you would
think you could do.
It will show you yourlimitations too.
Humbling and empoweringtogether.

(01:01:35):
Naturally will transform aperson their worldview.

Fantastic answer.
Love it.
I was gonna ask you about yourtattoos.

Tattoo.
So, I grew up in a veryconservative environment, Asian
and Christian.
So that's like doubly asconservative I'm pretty sure.

doesn't scream tattoos.

I certainly knew what it was like to think that
certain things were just no nosyou just don't do it.
And tattoos, even though it wasnever something I was interested
in, I just remember growing upand if my parents saw people
with lots of tattoos, that theywould just probably walk the
other way.
It was subtle, but very obviousthat there was some judging of

(01:02:17):
people with markings on theirbody.
And then when I became a parentand my children got a little bit
older, there was one time one ofmy sons, so I'm thinking about a
tattoo and he was already incollege by then.
And I'm like, tattoo, why wouldyou do that?
And I did the typical parentthing and I started rejecting it
from every corner.
and then fast forward, severalyears and right around midlife,

(01:02:41):
figuring out the adulting,transition, midlife crisis, call
it what you will.
And I decided that I was gonnaget tattoo.
I can't even say I had a verygood reason.
Except that I thought it wouldbe cute to have one.
It would be fun to have one.
I wanted a bird and I wasn'teven birding back then.
I found a design I really liked.
And I got tattoo.
You hear about people who wantto attach a lot of meaning to

(01:03:03):
it, and it really wasn't thatfor me, I just thought, I think
it would look really cute,subconsciously I probably did
attach a lot of meaning to it.
I think many of us do make thesechoices when we are going
through something when we'rewhen you choose to do something
that you would not have thoughtto do in the past.
I chose it because I thought Iwas really pretty and beautiful.

(01:03:24):
And then I thought, oh mygoodness, it was not by accident
that I chose these.
There's something about flight.
I have something in my core thathas to do with getting out,
being able to fly, not wantingto be confined.
So that was my first tattoo.
I thought, okay, I'm done.
need to have more, but I have asecond tattoo planned and it's

(01:03:46):
going to be a bird cage it'll bean open door though.
Open door.
I decide if I'm going to haveanother one, I wanna stick with
a theme.

It would be not too much of a stretch to attach a
bit of meaning to that.
It's a very deliberate butcontained statement of
rebellion.
Isn't it?

Yeah.
Don't put me in a cage.

Now that you've told me this great story of your
path through life, I'minterested to hear about your
family and your kids.
I hear in a lot of what you'resaying that a large part of
what's driving your own careerpath is wanting to be a model
for them.
So what are they like how doestheir world compare to the one
that you grew up in.

Okay.
our family is definitelyinteresting because from day one
we were different.
Jessie is the older of the two.
I have two boys.
Jessie will be 31 this year.
And my younger one, he'll beturning 26.
They're just two normal youngmen trying to figure out their
way in the world.
Because of the way they wereraised, the lines are blurrier

(01:04:49):
between us because of the ageand being young parents.
Our relationship definitelyblurs a line of parent to child
and peers.
Sometimes great.
Not always good because theywill say things to me that I'm
like, I can't believe you saidthat I never say that to my
mother.
We have an interestingrelationship because I think

(01:05:10):
everything about me and ourfamily, their father, everything
was just different.
So even as a model for them, I'mnot that much farther ahead of
them.
In fact, they're quicklycatching up and moving past me
in the sense that they've had astandard sequence of education,

(01:05:31):
higher education, and then intoyoung adulthood.
The three of us will sit aroundand talk about jobs now, and
I'll talk about my job andthey're talking about them
looking for jobs.
They'll be making more than meeasily in a very short time.
they are already, and I'mthinking, what the fuck?
Why are you making more moneythan me.
I want them to be better thanme.
I want them to more than me.

(01:05:52):
I think all parents generallywant that.
I don't all of us parents willalways be happy for every moment
of our children.
If we're a hundred percenthonest, I think it's more
complicated than that.
I think we can be happy forthem, but also feel like, wow, I
sacrificed a lot so you can havesomething.

(01:06:13):
I've set things up hopefully sothat you can succeed.
And in the world, maybe mychildren will surpass me, and I
want them to, but then I alsoscratch my head at oh, well,
okay.
I guess you're fine.
Now I have to catch up.
I've done everything that Icould.
Within my capacity, I try tomove the family forward, but in

(01:06:36):
the end, it's up to them todecide where they wanna go with
it.

I've heard you say a phrase I like, which is, women
need to lift each other up.
I wonder if that's somethingyou'd like to talk about, given
everything we've discussedtoday.

I think it came later in life for me that I
realized There's some thingsthat women will get about women
and men for men.
I think It's the same thing.
I think it's because I missedout on a lot of friendship
building when I was in my earlytwenties, which are really
formative years, as far as goinginto womanhood.

(01:07:11):
I also grew up with a mom whois, bless her, strong,
definitely wears the pants inthe family, but not very
relational and she's not thewarm, fuzzy type and her love
language is service.
I didn't have enough models whenI was young of what strong
female relationships look likeand why they're important.

(01:07:32):
Plus, I have a very independentmother who's very capable and
doesn't ask for a lot of help.
So I became that person too.
I became someone who's veryself-sufficient survivor, all of
that.
And then on top of that, havingmany years of not forging
relationships with other youngwomen.
So there's a huge void in mylife from those early years.

(01:07:54):
In my thirties, I started torealize, I need a community of
women, I need some good friends.
I need some support.
I think I still struggle withforging relationships.
I somehow don't seek them out,but I have noticed that the
handful of times where I do havedeep connections with other
women, whether it'sconversations about career,

(01:08:17):
about parenting, about justbeing a woman, just a girl, I
can feel that it's important.
It's important to feelingnormal.
we're also busy.
Everyone is, but to payattention to that, to take time,
to notice be supportive of eachother.
I think that really matters alot, even if it's a small
moment.

I think there'll be a lot of people who listen to
this, who will find your storyvery inspiring grace, and maybe
they'll want to reach out.
What's the best way for someoneto get in touch if they want to
say something to lift you up.

Please do.
I do love connecting withpeople.
The easiest way to find me,especially nowadays is LinkedIn.
I keep my LinkedIn tab on at alltimes.
If they just type my name, GraceLiaw at Quantec, they'll be able
to find their way to me.

It's been a fantastic conversation with you
today.
I've learned a lot and I'mfeeling inspired and uplifted in
so many ways.
I really enjoyed it.
Thank you.
Is there anything else you wannatalk about that I've missed?

I wanna thank you for in inviting me.
I feel like I just went througha therapy now.
Everyone's story is different,but what have you learned about
people in the process of doingthis show?

That's a great question.
A large part of why I starteddoing this is to have a reason
to talk to interesting peoplewho don't fit the normal way of
doing things and who don't likebeing bored.
A lot of people have this, whatI'm calling stuck energy, about
them.
I'm thinking hard now about howto help people get past that

(01:09:51):
stuck energy, help people bealive to the possibilities and
understand their strengths andcapabilities and see that all of
the stuff they feel about notfitting and having a different
path is huge strength and assetif it's reframed.

You too.
See ya!

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Living life out of sequence, with engagement and experience leader Grace Liaw | S2E11

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Living life out of sequence, with engagement and experience leader Grace Liaw | S2E11