Message Received: how authentic communication helps us find our voice and share our story - Kendra Fee-McNulty | S4E4 - Still Curious

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kendra Fee-McNulty (00:00):
Everyone has that superpower the thing about

(00:02):
them that makes them unique,that makes them really good at
what they do.
Those are all because of thescaffolding that we've built
around ourselves and in thethings that we've learned and
through I phrase I like to usefor my superpower.
is like my empathy sandbox.
It's being able to take my ego,put it aside, and figuratively
put on the shoes of the otherperson and play around in that

(00:23):
space.
What are their thoughts, whatare their fears, what are they
worried about, what are theythinking about, what barriers
are they going to have to thethings that I am trying to
communicate, so then we can workthrough together I work with
mission driven organizations, tofind their voice and share their
story.
you know how to talk about yourthing, but because you have the

(00:44):
language for it doesn't meanthat the other person
understands your language howpeople receive it is as
important as what say.
When you're able say somethingbig really succinctly, I like to
imagine it as a snowball whenyou have a lot of snow and you
can pack it down and say itreally succinctly, you can throw
that a lot So being able tospeak to people and meet people

(01:07):
where they are, a big I think,to the types of problems that to
help solve.
You're listening to this StillCurious Podcast with me.
Danu Poyner.
The show where I meet people whoinsist on relating to the world
with curiosity and care.
The people I call grokkist andtalk to them about the red

(01:29):
thread that runs through theirlife story and which ultimately
empowers them to flourish astheir unrepeatable selves.
The voice you just heard belongsto my guest today.
Kendra fee McNulty.
Who is the founder of Andcompany and empathy driven
marketing and communicationsconsultancy that helps impact
driven organizations andindividuals better weave their

(01:52):
own stories and connect withtheir communities so they can do
more good.
Today's conversation is allabout the power of
communication.
We live in a world, awash withmisunderstanding.
The messages we put out into theworld are not often the same
ones that other people receive.
Misunderstandings into the worldthrough this gap between what we

(02:15):
intend and what othersexperience.
And once the air is tainted withmisunderstanding.
What often results is confusion,hurt feelings, disconnection,
and withdrawal.
Each of us has a deep need tofeel seen.
Heard valued, accepted andunderstood.

(02:36):
And often our journey throughlife is propelled by the
momentum of those moments wherethat failed to happen.
This is a common experience forgrokkist in particular.
I had recently asked my husband, Drew,
Build a scenario where like hadto build my worst nightmare What
would it be?
And he said put you in asituation where there's

(02:56):
authority figures who will notlisten to you when you actually
do have the context and you knowa lot and you're in a position
where there's a higher up orsomeone with more authority who
disregards that experience.
and that bonkers.
Perhaps one of the reasonsgrokkist have a thirst for
understanding is preciselybecause we are ourselves.

(03:17):
So used to being misunderstood.
If we can get inside people'sheads enough.
If we can gather enoughinformation, if we can
understand all the rules of howthe world works And see how it
all fits together.
Maybe just maybe we can avoidthe pain of being misunderstood
next time.
If we can step outsidemisunderstanding as a place of

(03:39):
fear, hurt and shame, we mightalso find that it can be a
bridge to greater connection andbelonging.
Uh, bridge built from curiosityand care.
More than that misunderstandingcan be an opportunity for
connection.
It can be a place where asuperpower is a born.
Being adopted, one of the things that

(04:00):
they tell me was, you'respecial.
We got to pick you so there wasalways that sense of belonging
Inverse to I think in my tinytoddler brain, there are parts
of me, like better live up tothat.
I better make sure that I'm anexceptional individual.
I better make sure that I'm goodin all of these things and in
pleasing these people chose me.
that shadowy story arc hasdefinitely played a big role in

(04:22):
my life in how I engage and howI interacted.
I also it gave me my superpowerto a certain extent.
Kendra was always interested inmaking a positive impact.
From an early age, she lovedlearning about maths and
science.
And with genetics and genetherapy, all the rage in the
early two thousands.
She started out studyingbiotechnology with the aim of

(04:45):
using genetics to cure adisease.
But when she got into an actuallab and found herself alone,
taking meticulous notes whilemoving up a pet back and forth
all day.
She realized this didn't reallyfit who she was.
Already a keen photographer.
She switched into biomedicalphotography and then into visual
media.

(05:05):
Where she found more of anoutlet for her creativity.
A threshold moment came when shetook a public speaking class.
With a woman who would becomeher mentor, Eileen Benz,
igniting her passion forpersuasive communication and
leading her into the world ofmarketing.
And Kendra readily acknowledgesthe X factor of marketing, which

(05:26):
for many people is a thing thatbelongs firmly in the devil's
toolbox and is responsible foremotional manipulation and the
commercialization of creativity.
But you also emphasizes theimportance of authentic
communication that helpspurpose-driven organizations and
individuals to find and sharetheir voice.

(05:46):
Because how people receive ourmessage is as important as what
we have to say.
So in our wide rangingconversation, we explore this
tension between creativity andcommerce.
And the scaffolding work thatcurious and caring people must
build around ourselves in orderto function in situations and
environments that aren't alwaysbuilt for us to flourish as our

(06:08):
authentic selves.
We talked for instance aboutKendra's ADHD diagnosis and how
this impact, so work and therelief of finding communities of
people you can relate to.
That, oh wait, you do that too?
That's not just me?
Like, I'm not failing as a humanbecause I can't remember a date?
That's so cathartic to feel whenyour entire life you felt like

(06:29):
there was a deficit
We also discussed Kendra'sexperience with Toastmasters and
how practicing public speakinghas helped her navigate imposter
syndrome.
We consider how working withclients who have a shoestring
budget can force creativity fromconstraints.
And how her love of language andthe imaginative worlds of Saifai
fantasy and Dungeons and dragonshave all enriched her

(06:53):
appreciation for the infinitegame of finding the right words.
There's power in a name.
That's Patrick Rothfuss, right?
To pull another nerdy referenceof the power of'The Name Of The
Wind', but I think that'sprobably too why I have such a
love for branding when comes tomarketing.
Being able to kind of to companyand get to the heart of it and

(07:14):
getting those phrases, thosewords, those things that really
speak to what they are or whatthey're trying to accomplish.
I think that's super fun.
Through it all.
Kendra returns often to hertouchstones of empathy,
curiosity, and continuouslearning.
Aiming to be a guiding force forothers, much like her mentor

(07:35):
Eileen Benz was for her.
Kendra's story is a Testament tothe power of personal passion
and professional perseverance.
On the ebb and flow journey tobecoming our whole selves.
It's a journey that containsmany moments in which we are
shorter.
Recognize ourselves.
And I'm grateful to Kendra forcommunicating it to me with such

(07:55):
candor and clarity.
It's my full conversation withKendra fie McNulty.
After the music on today'sepisode of the Still Curious
Podcast.

Danu Poyner (08:31):
Hi Kendra, welcome to the podcast.
How are you?

Good.
How are you?
Thanks for having me.

So, let's start with what I like to call your
social armour story.
The polished, linear, runwayready version of your story that
showcases your expertise andachievements.
You describe yourself onLinkedIn as an intuitive
marketing communicator who'sdeveloped a unique ability to
read and engage people acrossdifferent industries and degrees

(08:59):
of understanding.
You're adept at asking the rightquestions to understand each
client's core value, and thentranslate it into a meaningful
message that engages and drivesaction.
You're skilled at strategicdevelopment, identifying and
capitalizing on missedopportunities, optimizing the
client customer experience,devising and delivering creative
pitches and presentations, andworking effectively with clients

(09:22):
to educate, enlighten, andinvolve them in the evolution of
their message.
What would you say is the mostimportant thing for someone to
understand about what you do?

I think it comes down a lot to just
marketing and communications.
A lot of people think a lotabout what they want to say to
someone or something, whetherit's in general communications
or it's in a business contextof, I want to talk my target
audience, I want to sell mything, my service, whatever it
is.
It's often that many peopledon't think about how that

(09:55):
information is actually beingreceived by that person.
So, very early on in my career,I had a mentor who broke down
communication in a reallyinteresting way.
Eileen Benz, is her name, shehad basically thought of
communications and in thiscontext it was PR class in
college, but Communication islike go go gadget arms if you're

(10:17):
a good marketing communicatorwhere you have the client or the
business or whatever it is thatyou're trying to communicate,
trying tell your story, you'retrying to sell your widget.
There's also audience and a goodmarketing communicator has go go
gadget arms in both those camps.
So they're able to act astranslator to make sure and

(10:37):
understanding both sides andthen working that communication
back and forth.

It's really interesting that you mention the
emphasis on how the message isreceived, because I think that
makes a lot of sense.
We spend a lot of time thinkingabout how to Put a message out
into the world.
We don't often stop to thinkabout how it's being received.
Why do you think that is?

think it's just kind of natural.
That goes back to, I think, alittle bit too that psychology
around humans, the ego and theid, and we're constantly in our
own heads and thinking aboutwhat we want to be doing and
what we want to be putting outthere.
It's a skill, I think, for a lotof people to take yourself out
of that and put yourself insomeone else's shoes and play

(11:17):
around in to think about howthey're thinking about it and
receiving that information.
A lot of marketers today willtell you the same thing that
it's not about you.
It's about your client, yourcustomer, the people that you're
trying to communicate with.
There's a great framework forthinking about this that I
really enjoy, which is thestrategic narrative.

(11:39):
When you're thinking abouttelling story, there's standard
arc, there's the hero of thatstory and they're moving their
way their their happily everafter.
A common trope is Cinderellastory and Cinderella story is
she's has a problem, she has achallenge, a fairy godmother
comes, gives her thisopportunity to change that fate,
and she's off in her ever after.

(12:01):
To use another reference of oneof my favorites, Star Wars, Yoda
and Obi Wan are that kind ofcatalyst for Luke, he's on a
path, he's changing hisperception and helps him become
the hero of the Rebellion.
It's That kind of strategic arcand narrative.
As marketers and as businesses,and people sometimes, we're not

(12:22):
the hero in the story.
It's much more effective andmuch beneficial when you're
thinking about that otherperson, when you're thinking
about how can I help that heroto their happily ever after.
It alleviates the pain for them,helps them get to that better
place.
So it's a unique and interestingway to think about it and
reframe what you're trying to dobecause it opens up a whole new

(12:45):
world of possibilities to lookat it and think about it.

Obviously, we'll be talking a lot about marketing
and communications today, andI'm keen to get into more of the
strategic narrative and EileenBens you mentioned, but I guess
what we should do first is, howwould you explain marketing to a
10-year-old?

That is a great question.
I like to tack on that marketingcommunication because I think
that's a big of it.
There's two parts.
There's the outbound, the pushof trying to get something out
whether it's a message, amission, a product or service,
you're trying to push somethingout into the world and how to

(13:25):
best go about that, whatmessages you want say, how you
want to sell that product withThe Mission Vision Value is all
of those fun buzzwords are.
There's another half of that isthe inbound.
It's trying to have people findYou, and I like to think of it
as creating Forest paths whereyou are finding different ways
to create these paths who are ontheir own mission journey, their

(13:48):
own Luke Skywalker story arc, tofind and make their way to you
so that can then help them.
So there's those two kind ofpushing things out, but then
also bringing people to you.

I have this image in my head when you go to the
gym for the first time, everyonetalks about how you're really
worried about how other peopleare perceiving you and looking
at you and you feel really selfconscious.
And then after a while, youstart to realize that no one is
paying any attention to you atall.
And they're all doing their ownthing and don't even know that

(14:20):
you exist most of the time,unless you're in their way.
And I was just thinking aboutthat.
In terms of what you were sayingabout how messages are received
and the psychology of puttingstuff out there.
Do you have anything to sayabout that?

That thing is actually called spotlight
syndrome where you think thatyou are the on the stage in the
black auditorium and thespotlight is on you and everyone
is looking at you.
Whereas in reality, Everyone isthinking that of themselves and
is in their own little worlds asthey're moving about in the
universe.

It's like that saying that the advice they give
to writers, write like no one'swatching,

Dance like no one's watching.
It's a little bit of a detrimentBut it also can be a help.
When you're in it, you aretotally in it.
You're seeing everything in yourown little bubble in your own
little world.
I love Working with other peopleand when you get those outside
perspectives and those outsideeyes looking in you bring them
into the bubble with you.

(15:21):
You get whole new sense andperspective on the situation and
It's one of my favorite thingsabout collaborating with others.

I guess with marketing, unlike the spotlight
syndrome where you're worriedeveryone's paying attention to
you but they're not, inmarketing you want everyone to
be paying attention to you, butthey're not.

I think The grokkist terminology of like
that social armor is kind ofperfect an allegory for it, too.
There is this kind of perceptionand persona that you put out
into the world.
For instance, that LinkedInparagraph, While parts of it are
totally true, and I would gointo each sentence and explain
it in a more personable way,it's very surface level and

(16:02):
doesn't really get to the heartof who anyone is.
It takes a lot to really beCognizant and creative and
specific in how you communicateall of those things so that
people can actually breakthrough that outer shell and see
the gooey inner bits, the reasonthat you're doing something, the
mission.
People ultimately want to dobusiness people and people

(16:26):
ultimately are driven by theiremotions and not logic, much to
our chagrin.
But when you relate to someoneon an emotional level, when you
feel or for their cause or youagree with them in it it
resonates at heart of it, somuch more likely to see the
needle moved in action.

I don't think I've ever had anyone on the podcast
who is happy with the statementabout themselves.
We all spend ages crafting thosethings and then everyone's like,
ah, cringe when they hear it.
So I think that's reallyinteresting and when we're
having a conversation aboutmarketing and communication and
how those messages go out andhow they're received.
In these conversations, I liketo get to what I call the shadow

(17:06):
story, the one that we mostlykeep to and sometimes from
ourselves.
The messy, complicated, and thenon linear story that teems with
weird and wild moments and halfforgotten hopes and curiosities
and hidden threshold moments.
But I think both stories areimportant.
The social armour one we put outthere keeps us safe in the

(17:28):
world, and we need that.
But our shadow self is the onethat knows what we need as
people.
So I'm always really fascinatedby the way both of those stories
interact with each other, andwhat they have to say to each
other.
perhaps let's start here.
You're an only child, as am I,and by all accounts, your
parents gave you a very secureand loving upbringing, which

(17:51):
mine did as well.
And the older I get, and themore people I meet, the more I
realize just how significantthat emotionally secure
environment has been for the wayI move through the world.
I'm wondering if that'ssomething that you've found too.

I think so.
Not only am I an only child, I'malso adopted.
So certain level of, care andconsideration that my parents
put into being involved in mylife as I grew and the focus
specifically for my mom, what wewould call now as a helicopter
parent might also but it was allwell for sure.

(18:27):
One of the things I remembergrowing up is, as being adopted,
one of the things that they tellme was, you're special.
We got to pick you so there wasalways that sense of belonging
Inverse to I think kind of outthat bit that kind of
expectation to, better live upto that.
I think in my tiny toddlerbrain, there are parts of me,

(18:48):
like I better make sure that I'man exceptional individual.
I better make sure that I'm goodin all of these things and in
pleasing these people chose me.
So I think that that is astruggle and kind of a shadowy
story arc that has definitelyplayed a big role in my life in
how I engage and how Iinteracted.

(19:09):
I also it gave me my superpowerto a certain extent.
This kind of ability.
to read and engage peoplebecause I was constantly
temperature checking.
You know, you're constantlygauging and seeing how things
are going.
It was a little bit of aemotional chameleon where trying

(19:30):
to fit in the people.
We all go that when we're young,trying to find, our people.
To a certain extreme degree whenI was much younger and
definitely noticed it as Istarted dating in my young adult
life, how you would moldyourself to a specific
situation, to a specific partnerand kind of ebb flow in that

(19:51):
rather than again, uncrackingthat shell to being your whole
self.

That's a really interesting example of what you
were saying at the top aboutmessages and how we intend them
and how they're received,because your parents very well
intentioned and warm and lovingand helicoptering, as you put
it,"you're special we get topick you" is a lovely message
and it is received nicely, butit also has this other
connotation to it.

(20:16):
What kinds of things was youngKendra into?
What are some of your most vividmemories from childhood?

One of the biggest memories is my dad and I
used to go and take hikes withour dogs growing up.
So that was a big one, a justbeing and walking trails, it was
a moment of bonding for him andI, kind of having conversations.
He would treat me like an adultalmost.
Or as an individual rather thanhis child.
We'd chat and we'd talk and itwas a special moment.

(20:46):
The other Big memories fromchildhood, similar to that is I
lived in a big, suburbanneighborhood, but we were backed
up to a bunch of woods that hadyet to be developed and there
were bike trails that all theneighbor kids busted through and
we were developing neighborhoodsSo there was you know
construction materials allaround and, needless to say I

(21:07):
think the statute of limitationsis gone, we stole some of those
the scrap materials and madeforts in the trees so I think
that kind of like being outsidebeing in nature, but also being
with others was a big part of mychildhood.

You mentioned your dad treating you like an adult.
I had that kind of experience aswell.
As an only child, my parentsalways treated me as an equal
decision making partner in allthe big life decisions.
Which was nice, but I oftendidn't have a lot of the context
you know, for choosing whatschool to go to and where we
would live and those things.
It's given me a lot ofSelf-confidence and ability to

(21:43):
make those kind of decisions,but also it's given me a
resistance to authority and adifficulty in being just, like a
team player.
Sometimes I think.
So these things always cut bothways.

No, absolutely.
It's also really frustrating, Iknow it's a common thing when
you actually do have the contextand you know a lot and you're in
a position where there's ahigher up or someone with more
authority who disregards thatexperience.
I had recently asked my partner,my husband, Drew, I asked him
what my Worst nightmare was ifhe had to build a scenario where

(22:18):
like had to build my worstnightmare What would it be?
And he said put you in asituation where there's
authority figures who will notlisten to you and that bonkers.
It's interesting now as aparent.
My kid is 16 and is in thatmiddle end, they're still a kid,
but they're thinking they're anadult.
They're trying to find theirway.
They're working through all ofthe awful stuff that happens

(22:40):
when you're 16 years old, thatin the grand scheme of thing is
not awful.
But at the time there's so manyemotions and hormones running
around that everything feelslike the end of the world.
How I'm showing up to help themis, speaking parents, very
different than the relationshipI think we had with our parents
being that older generation.

(23:01):
It might not be the same for youbased on the amount of input you
got in yours, but I think a lotof like, the baby boomers, I'm
an elder millennial, it was verytop down, and more helicopter y
kind of versus telling me whatto do and protecting me and
bubble wrapping me versus beingthat resource to come to, I

(23:24):
tried to be that resource forLou to come to when they need
help, when they need guidance tohelp them, but also I don't want
them to be bubble wrapped.
Easier to fail fast and failearly.
It's a kind of a theme actuallyfor me I'd rather take chances
in and do things up front andtest the waters and then get a

(23:45):
better understanding of thesituation and then move on than
play it safe over the long term,but then when you do fail you
fail big.

I'm curious if you have an example of the not
bubble wrapping the kids inpractice, because often we have
these intentions intellectuallythat we understand something and
then when it actually happens,it's like, Oh, is this the
moment when I do that?
And, uh,

absolutely.
There are many times where myinstinct absolutely is to take
out the bubble wrap and wrap up.
But in friend situations or likesocial drama, Lou and I, because
I had her relatively young, wegrew up together a little bit
too.
So they'll come to me.
And ask advice, and, rather thaninput my opinion on things.

(24:31):
I just ask questions to get themthinking about things, a great
example recently, so Lou'slearning to drive and we get
particular amount of snow and itwas particularly slippery and so
I took them specifically to aparking lot and told them to gun
it and turn the wheel and slideit, like it was a safe area, it
was wide open, but to get thatfeeling of what it's like to

(24:55):
lose traction and control of thevehicle so that when that moment
comes they can Get a gauge andsense of it later.

I want to talk about your superpower you
mentioned, which I think youcall emotional chameleon.
Can you tell me a bit more aboutthat?
When did you recognize that as asuperpower and give it a name?

Yeah, I don't think I actually
recognized it as a superpoweruntil Much into my marketing
career.
I think it had a lot do with whyI ended up choosing
communications as the finalthing that I settled on because,
like many people, when I wentinto higher education I started
in biotechnology, loved math,loved science, loved learning

(25:36):
about it.
Genetics at that time in theearly aughts was so cool.
I wanted to cure cancer.
I wanted to do all of thesethings.
But when I got the opportunityto do an undergrad lab, sitting
and doing the pipette motion ofback and forth all day alone,
taking meticulous notes didn'tfit Who I was and so I kept

(25:57):
looking.
I was fortunate to be at auniversity on a quarter system.
So our semesters our quarterswere only 10 weeks at a time So
we three them in a year ratherthan two semesters and so I was
able to move pretty quickly.
So the first year was oneprogram, then I switched to
biomedical photography, stillsciences, there's still that

(26:20):
beat, but then there's thisphoto aspect, which I always
grew up with, being in Kodaktown.
My dad worked for Kodak.
I had a camera.
earlier than most probably.
And I'm like, okay, there's thisblend.
That's great.
I don't really want to take thepictures though.
It's the creativity and theideas.
So then I moved into visualmedia, which is kind of graphic

(26:41):
design and a starting point forlike art direction and that life
path and then as an elective Itook a communications class and
a marketing class andimmediately fell in love and I
think it was again that analogyof oh You know the two ways of
communications that you'resending something out there, but
also being received like it justclicked, how you say things how

(27:03):
you do things public speakingbecame a larger part of what I
did at that time, and thenrealizing and having that time
to practice to do it, yourealize, oh, this is easier and
I enjoy this.
I think that's where I realizedit was this like superpower.
The phrase I like to use is likemy empathy sandbox.

(27:25):
Particularly in marketing oreven having a conversation with
someone, it's being able toliterally take my ego, put it
aside, and figuratively put onthe shoes of the other person
and play around in that space.
What are their thoughts, whatare their fears, what are they
worried about, what are theythinking about, what barriers

(27:45):
are they going to have to thethings that I am trying to
communicate, so then we can workthrough together.
I'm huge into dnd have a ton ofdnd friends.
We play Online we play in personand one of my favorite things
about it both as a dungeonmaster who's running a game or
as player who has a character isthat empathy sandbox.

(28:07):
that character development ofwhat would they do in this
moment?
That's, again, another reasonwhy I probably realized that
it's something that I enjoy.

We're definitely coming back to the Dungeons and
Dragon stuff, later on, now thatyou've brought that in, and
thank you for making my job mucheasier because normally it's
around this time I ask people,was the thing that you're doing
your plan A?
And it almost never is.
I think it has been like twiceever on the podcast.
So thank you for laying it out.
So biotech, then biomedicalphotography, visual media, and

(28:38):
then eventually intocommunications, like one of
those word puzzles where youjust change One letter each time
and you get to where you want toget.
I'm curious, did you have a planA at the beginning?

Oh, yes.
I wanted to use genetics to curesome disease.
I don't know quite where it camefrom.
There wasn't a particularpersonal connection I had to any
particular disease.
It was more that the idea ofbiotechnology, of genetics, gene
therapy was so new, and thereewere so many opportunities for

(29:11):
applications to use it uniqueways that really fascinated me,
and still fascinate me to thisday.
MRNA vaccines are so coolbecause of how they use your own
body's mechanisms in order towork.
There's so many different waysin which it could be used that I

(29:32):
found really, reallyinteresting.
I think that when you're young,especially when you're 18 and
that ability to step into and belike, you can do or be anything.
What do you want to do or be?
That question is so huge.
And I don't know if we fullyunderstand it at that age.
There was no real reason orrhyme for it that I can remember
other than that sounds cool andI want to do it.

(29:54):
And then the next thing wascool.
and I wanted to do it.
And then the next thing, and Ithink that's true for a lot of
us.

think that's how most of us actually live our
lives.There's a lot of pressurethat gets put on that decision
to choose a thing, or to be athing, or to have a
specialization.
And it can be overwhelmingbecause there's so much choice,
but also there's so much ridingon that choice that it can be
something we back away from orstruggle with.

(30:21):
So much nicer to just followyour interests and it's
interesting how even when youstart over here, there is a kind
of natural gravitational pullthat will bring you over to
where you want to be.
I'm curious with the discoveryof communications, what was the,
Oh, this is for me moment ofthat.

(30:42):
And then what happened next?

Yeah, so as a result of me taking a lot of
different paths, I had to fillin a lot.
So I took some classes at thelocal community college and I
took a public speaking classwith Eileen Benz, who's still a
mentor of mine to this day manyyears later.
I think it finally reallyclicked how much I enjoyed it
how much at the prep, thethought, doing the thing.

(31:07):
So the whole structure of theclass we had to do a Informative
speech, we had to do apersuasive speech.
It's very loosely based onToastmasters international and
was so fun, especially the factthat it is literally ranked the
number one fear for humans.
Death is second.
That fear is so deeply embeddedin us as people but that idea of

(31:32):
Being able to get up in front ofsomeone and use my communication
because it's not just my words.
It's your body language.
It's your vocal variety.
It's how you're moving acrossthe stage.
It's the pauses, and it's thelack of words streaming out of
my mouth at the rate that theyusually do that really can
change and affect people andthem think differently.

(31:54):
I think storytelling,particularly in speaking, is so
powerful, things like TED Talksare so powerful because it's
innate to who we are as humans.
I think that something uniqueabout that ability to connect
with people by speaking to them,and it also creates an

(32:16):
opportunity to make a biggerimpact, albeit maybe a small
little ripple in a room.

So, did you have that fear of public speaking
initially, or were you like, ah,this is my pool, I'm jumping in?

Think absolutely I was afraid of
public speaking I know I wasafraid of impromptu speaking.
One of the things that Istruggled with for a really long
time growing in to earlyadulthood small talk.
not only is it sometimes theworst questions because people
ask like what do you do for aliving, boring.
That small talk that impromptuwhere Someone asks you a

(32:52):
question and you put your fingerup, it's like, hold on just one
minute, and then you run awayand go think about it and write
it down and then come back andhave that quip.
That's why so many of us, Ithink, are engaging in
conversations and then threedays later you're darn it,
should have or I say this, orwhy did I say that?
That is so hard.

(33:13):
And so when I got into publicspeaking, A, it wasn't that.
I was able to take that time toreally think about it and craft
the message and practice and allof those things.
But when I got out of the publicspeaking class and then
eventually did get intoToastmasters, it created a space
for me to practice.

(33:34):
The way that the classicToastmasters meeting lays out is
there's three main parts.
There's the prepared speeches,then there's the feedback.
So those people who just gave.
prepared get immediate feedbackfrom fellow Toastmasters two to
three mini speech which isimpromptu in couple minutes and
then there's a whole impromptusection called table topics,

(33:57):
where it's literally a welcomingwarm space full like minded
people who are trying topractice that level of
communication and because itcreates that culture of self
improvement, it's a safe spaceto fail fast.
something new and see if itworks or get rid of that,
evolutionary biological guilt orworry around alienating yourself

(34:22):
and practicing and gettingbetter because communication
absolutely 100 percent is askill and you can learn and you
can grow and you can improveupon.
It's a muscle that can be, youknow, go to the gym and work and
when you're in an environmentlike the gym that is accepting
and helping you out and You'reseeing that culture of positive

(34:45):
feedback and growth.
I think those kinds of culturesWill supercharge whatever it is
that you're trying to do.
That feedback section is soimportant too, where you not
only spend all this timepreparing a speech, there's an
importance placed on gettingimmediate feedback so that you
can learn and grow.

(35:06):
And not only that, there'simportance placed on giving good
feedback.
In all of those people who aregiving that feedback, there's
methods and they're practicingand they're learning how to give
feedback to help someoneimprove.
When you create an environmentwhere you want people to improve
and you think people are capableof, high marks, people will rise

(35:28):
to meet that occasion.

I've dabbled a little bit with Toastmaster.
I've dabbled a bit with far toomany things, but I really
enjoyed that experience andfound the immediacy of it that
you mentioned is actually one ofthe things that's most powerful
about it because it takes thething that is the source of the
fear and also the source of thepractice that you need to build
the muscle and builds it rightin.

(35:52):
So getting the feedback andhaving to listen to people
critique your thing straightaway, but also you're listening
to other people's speeches andthat process of giving feedback
as well, it takes away some ofthat fear.
You can fail fast and safely, asyou say.
That seems to be an instinct ofyours, like with the parenting
example that we mentioned, todeal with the uncertainty and

(36:14):
the fear there of the non bubblewrapping by proactively
systematizing that and creatinga space where that can happen
safely, and Toastmasters, andalso D& D, I suspect, is a bit
like this, because you doingimpromptu storytelling, but
there's a system behind it, andit's all playful and
improvisational.

I never thought about it that way for D&
D, but that's totally true.
So for those who aren'tfamiliar, there's the DM, the
Dungeon Master, but it'sbasically the person who's
running the game.
So there's an adventure, orthere's a story that you want to
tell, or whatever, there's premade books, there's homebrews,
there's the internet, there'sChatGBT in some cases, where you
can build a story and you haveplayers.

(36:57):
who create their own charactersand they're living in your
world.
So as a DM, you're worldbuilding essentially and story
building and putting thesepeople in the sandbox of that
world and that story and lettingthem poke around and there's a
million different other podcastsand YouTube channels about how
to do that really, really well.

(37:18):
One of my favorite things aboutit is you can be the most
prepared you ever could for yoursession.
So you have a session, you knowwhat your players are trying to
do.
They're going through this thingand they're going to go here and
they're going to do this.
And I guarantee you they willthrow you a curveball that you
did not expect.
They will think of some crazyway to get through a situation,

(37:43):
or they will go far away fromwhere you thought that the path
that they were going to go on,and in that moment you have to
just react to it.
Okay, what's going to happen,what are you doing?
D& D is similar to sketchcomedy, it's a yes and, like you
don't want to yuck someone'syum.
If they're having fun and wantto do, okay, well, let's find a

(38:04):
way to make that fun.
And if it's Going a little offthe rails.
You can bring it back, butthere's a improv kind element to
it.
I think it's a good allegory forlife in a certain case, because
you can be as prepared for themoment as you can be, but
something may go off the rails.
And so it's always good to beable to think quickly and react

(38:24):
and act based on that feedback.

I haven't played D& D myself, but I'm always
adjacent to that world, and I'msure I'll get pulled into it
eventually.
Mentioned I dabbled inToastmasters, but you have gone
quite a long way inToastmasters, I think, and risen
to a reasonably high level.
Would you like to talk aboutthat?

Yeah, it was some time ago.
I'm actually just dabbling andgetting back into it after a
long hiatus, but, yeah, therewas a particular club, my home
club, that we were veryinvolved.
It was a great community.
And so in Toastmasters, one ofthe things that's a part of it
is contest season.
It's changed over the years, butfor evaluations there's a
contest,, there's humorousspeeches there's a contest.

(39:08):
But the big Mamma is theinternational they call it.
It's a persuasive speech.
It's five to seven minutes, soit's not the longest speech in
the world but it's supposed tobe inspirational.
It's supposed to have a message.
to make you think.
supposed to be persuasive, and anumber of these things.
If you ever hear about the worldchampionship of public speaking

(39:32):
that happens once a year at theToastmasters International
Conference, that is what Thatspeech is, it's all leading up
to this international speech.
I got two steps away fromcompetition.
So very close.
But so many wonderful things andwonderful speeches that I've
heard.

(39:53):
So mine was, and I want date itbecause it was before Simon
Sinek.
wrote his book, but it wasessentially about the infinite
game the finite game.
So there's two types of games,right?
And most sports and games arelike baseball and hockey and
there's winners and there'sThere's a defined moment and at

(40:13):
the end of that moment you tallyup the score and see whose team
beat the other team or whoscored higher than the other or
whatever the case may be, versusthe infinite game is opposed to
baseball where there's thatscoring and finite amount of
time playing catch with someonewas an infinite game.

(40:36):
There is no winners or loserswhen playing catch, you're doing
it with a partner for the sakeof the thing.
If I, Took my ball and threw itas hard as I could over
someone's head and say haha.
I won like That would make nosense.
That's not how you ebb and youflow and you change how you're
playing the game in order toContinue the game.

(40:59):
I if I'm playing with my nephew,I'm throwing it a little lighter
I'm doing it underhanded.
I'm aiming it towards his mitt,Versus if I'm playing with a
friend of mine who playssoftball or I'm playing ultimate
frisbee and we're Warming up,kind changing your behavior work
with people who are game withBecause ultimately there are no

(41:21):
winners losers in game.
You're playing for the sake ofthe game.
You're playing the continuationof the game.
And so mine included a storyfrom my childhood where I had, a
friend of friend who had acongenital birth defect.
He didn't have an arm.
And so there was a little bit ofa personal story involved there

(41:42):
and how that worked and themisconceptions around making
assumptions for the otherpeople.
So there was a couple differentelements in it, but ultimately
it was about, What team do youwant to be on?
There aren't really teams, soare you in this game called
life, playing infinite game?
Or are you losers?

(42:03):
And you rather be in?

like that.
And I guess this is a nice segueto talking about the Infinite
and the finite game of marketingand communications is Where we
were at in your personal storywas you had discovered Marketing
Communications, and then I'minterested to hear about the
finite game, the LinkedIn story,how did you win at marketing and

(42:27):
what were the career steps youwent through.
But then I'm also interested tohear about the infinite game of
marketing and communication as apractice that you do to keep
doing it and what that means toyou and those two stories
together.

I love the way that, that question was
framed.
yeah, winning at marketing.
No, there's a lot of losing too,but I think that's part of it.
So during my time when I was aphoto major in college, I
started working for portraitstudio on the side.
Facebook was just becoming kindof a thing, Facebook ads were
brand new, the timeline wasreleased.

(43:02):
So I grew up in marketing tryingthose things out.
It was the wild west of digitalmarketing at that point where
trying to increase people,engaging with a brand, a non
person on the internet wasrelatively new We had the great
fortune of being a portraitstudio.

(43:23):
We had a lot of cute pictures ofkids, so it made it a little bit
easier.
One of the first things I didthough, was the DIY blog.
implementing a DIY blog, usingphotos as the basis of that was
a way to create that pathway into people finding out about the
project studio.
I was able to play around aspart of my job, seeing what

(43:44):
would work, because it was allso new.
I then started working at a verysmall boutique marketing agency.
There's literally three of us,and then we would hire and work
with other people but veryfocused on small, mid size,
little baby businesses, a lot ofdentists, those kinds of things.

(44:04):
But it gave you a realappreciation for, are the
important things that you haveto be focusing on because for
small businesses, for startupsand nonprofits, which also
became my area where I like toplay, you don't have infinite
multimillion dollar budgets.
You don't have the luxury oftime.
So where do you place thatemphasis?

(44:28):
What are the things that giveyou the biggest bang for your
buck, that 2080 principle?
And that's where, from aninfinite game standpoint, is
still to this day where I thinkmy sweet spot is of being able
to look at all the differentways that you can do a thing and
what's going to give you themost impact to make the most
impact.

Yeah, that art of making a little go a long way is
really important and valuable.
Around that time in the midaughts, our, I'm Australian, and
our national public broadcaster,the ABC, was always having its
budget cut by every governmentthat came in, and so it was
having to do a lot with alittle, and they did some of the

(45:10):
most innovative things indigital marketing at that time
because they were running on thesmell of an oily rag.
It's a much appreciated skill, Ithink.

I think there's a certain level of
creativity that comes fromscarcity when it comes to
communication or marketing oronline, and there's probably an
infinite number of areas, butwhen you only have bubblegum
shoestring and you need to makesomething work, you're gonna
MacGyver the crap of it.

I was waiting for you to say MacGyver.
I'm like, is this going to be aMacGyver reference?
You have said so many luminousphrases already today.
You like naming things.
We've had the Pygmalion effectand spotlight syndrome and the
empathy sandbox and theemotional chameleon.
You have a very obviousaffinity.

(46:00):
for language, I think.
And there's a playfulness in theprecision of finding these
luminous phrases and metaphors.
And metaphors are importantbecause they stake out the right
linguistic territory to matchthe emotion of the underlying
message that wants to becommunicated.
Where does that love of languagecome from?

I was definitely an early reader.
I can thank very clearly theAnimorphs book series for that
love of reading.
I was a big sci fi fan becauseof my dad.
He and I would watch Star Trekwhen I was little and then got
into the whole universe there,but I think reading actually
helped with that a lot.
The one clear memory that Idon't think I thought about for

(46:41):
maybe a decade now was my momgot this like super old laptop
in the late nineties.
Think brick, like think pad.
That was like a college coursebook and had the little nubby
and like Had internet I thinkbut barely, but I'd had no way
to access that internet at thattime But I had it and I remember

(47:04):
staying up late and like writingstories on it in my bed.
But the glow of the screen inthe middle of the night while
I'm making these god awful, I'msure, stories.
So I think that there's alwaysbeen like a relationship for me
reading and language andstorytelling.

I'm always really interested when I hear people
name things, because to me, itrepresents hard won clarity of
what you're talking about.
Once you have had the time andyou've approached it from all
angles, you hit upon this namefor something.
Like, ah, that fires all ofthese associations.
And it's like, okay, I'll putthat in my bag of tricks to pull

(47:40):
later.
And you have a lot of those, Ithink, you're like a collector
of names.

I do enjoy them.
There's power in a name.
That's Patrick Rothfuss, right?
To pull another nerdy referenceof the power of'The Name Of The
Wind', the power in name, But Ithink that's probably too why I
have such a love for brandingwhen comes to marketing.
Like being able to kind of tocompany and get to the heart of
it and getting those phrases,those words, those things that

(48:07):
really speak to what they are orwhat they're trying to
accomplish.
I think that's super fun.

On that note Can we talk a little bit about the ick
factor of marketing?
Because I suspect for a lot ofpeople, marketing like sales is
something that is in the devil'stoolbox.
And it's not something thatsounds fun.
You have a very playful andemotionally resonant way of
talking about these things thatyou're working with, with

(48:34):
nonprofits and things, as you'vementioned, but I'm curious, can
you talk a little bit to the ickfactor of marketing?

Oh, yes, because I deal with it every
day.
I feel ick when I'm therecipient of, I'll say, bad
marketing.
I think marketing gets a bad rapbecause of two things.
One, it's that it is thesibling, we'll say, to sales
where ultimately, marketing isthought of as this entity, this

(49:03):
business is trying to get me tobuy something, it's trying to
get me to do something, it'strying to change my life, change
my habits, For better or forworse, but mostly for better for
them because ultimately I willpay them money and they become
rich and their shareholders willbe happy and Capitalism will
survive another day.
That idea that marketers are thesnake oil salesman of today that

(49:26):
we're trying to manipulatepeople to want to buy the thing
or I think there's part of it isthat manipulation of the
culture.
You the coolest, so you haveAirPods and an iPhone and
because they're so much betterand you're cooler when you have
them, there's that kind ofaffinity culture piece to it.
Also, and this is probably thepart that bothers me the most,

(49:46):
it's the commercialization ofcreativity to a certain extent,
too, and commercialization ofcommunication, There's a
definite end goal in mind.
Marketing is a means to thatend, and when you see bad
marketing, it just drives youfreaking nuts.

What's bad marketing?
Give me an example.

Ads that Pop up on my solitaire that are not
the game when you download them.
And it's all ultimately to useyour data because no one reads
the terms service and anything,people who are trying too hard
to seem and feel a feelingthat's so obvious that they
don't feel.
So there's that inauthenticityto it, whereas there's so much

(50:28):
clever marketing too.
Literally, the Super Bowl is mySuper Bowl, because, for better
or for worse, the most money andcreative power goes into those
30 second ads, because they'reworth so much.
There are opportunities inmarketing and communications to
be really creative, to reallyconnect with people.

(50:49):
So when done poorly, thatconnection feels false and
trite.
I think that there areopportunities in marketing
change behaviors and changepeople's minds that ultimately
can absolutely be used for evil.
all things, they're double edgedswords, I think when people are

(51:10):
faced with those things, theygive definitely that ick factor.

I think you're hitting upon something really
important.
You mentioned that theinstrumental nature of the
communication and marketing ispart of what it is.
It's you trying to get a messageacross to be received in a
particular way, and it's for apurpose.
It's for a goal.
And so I wonder what the tensionis with that authenticity piece

(51:37):
in that.
But also, is that Skill and thatchallenge part of the fun,
because, as you were talking, Iwas thinking of the Toastmasters
contests, where the fact thatit's a contest and that it's
persuasive, that's alsoinstrumental, but it can be
authentic and meaningful.
So it's in there somewhere.

Definitely.
I think you're absolutely rightI think part of the fun at least
is in the challenge in a lot ofways of Trying to think about it
and trying to make it work.
I have had the fortune ofworking with a lot of great
organizations and individualsthat are very purpose driven.
In fact, now that's pretty muchthe root of my client base,

(52:16):
people who are mission drivenorganizations.
And so there is a means that I'mtrying to accomplish, but
luckily that means is good.
So I'm trying to make a worldand a better place just doing it
through different kind ofmethodology than quitting my job
and starting an NGO.
So I definitely agree that thereis that challenge and that makes

(52:36):
it fun.

You sort of alluded to the space that you are
working in now.
You were at the marketing agencywith three of you.
What happened after that?
What caused you to move on?
What was it like?
What happened next?

Yeah, absolutely.
So, I was at the relativelysmall marketing agency and
really getting to go deep intoall that strategy and branding
and pieces that I love.
That agency then was purchasedby a larger one.
we were folded into the mix.
And part of our strategicadvantage was that we were

(53:12):
focused on Smaller businesses,not the big clients, but the
little ones that make up 90% ofthe economy, at least in the us.
And so we were able to nicheourselves within that larger
agency as focusing on small tomid-sized businesses, nonprofits
that don't have big budgets,startups that may not have

(53:34):
funding yet or early stage.
I think because of that kind oftechnical background that I had
as well with biotech and myability to understand and be
interested and learn, I got thislittle happy niche of startups,
particularly those that weretech based, a lot of tech
companies.
When I say tech, I don't justmean software as a service or

(53:55):
big things like that, but waterfiltration or climate tech was
one.
Anything hard tech, anythingthat involves the making of a
thing as well as like the softtech of the software of the
thing, think that was a placethat was very interesting to me
and it's a fun culture toworking with some of these kinds

(54:16):
of businesses where they havereally big goals.
They're just starting out.
There's a lot of excitement andenergy and you want to help them
get there.
A lot of entrepreneurs that I'veworked with, they're starting
these businesses because theyhave an idea to fix a problem
that they've had and they wantto fix that problem for other
people.
So that was a big part of ittoo.

You were able to connect again with your love of
biotech, it sounds like you did.

I think to a certain extent.
I think it was more that love ofunderstanding how the things
worked, and understanding how itall comes together that allowed
me to really dive in andunderstand a particular business
or a particular product.
Some of my favorite Clients andcustomers and organizations that

(55:05):
I've worked with often were theones that were really technical
and had to be translated to beexplained simply.
That particular challenge that Ireally enjoyed.
Another is those organizationsthat had a lot of different
audiences that they were tocommunicate with.

(55:26):
My most recent one comes to mindwas a startup that had to talk
to truckers versusenvironmentalists and versus
government versus farmers,though there's such a different
tack that you have to take witheach of these audiences because
What you tell one will notresonate the same way that it

(55:47):
does with another.

Do you have, top of mind, an example of one of your
proudest, almost satisfying winsin that game?

One of the things that I had the most fun
doing was, I had a mother clientwho was starting a business and
she had problem where herdaughter's thing kept falling
between the crack between thewall and the bed.
So the stuffy would fall cryingwouldn't ensue, all of these
things.

(56:18):
So she created this product thatbasically was a wedge that went
in that edge to stuff it.
So it was seamless, stuffcouldn't fall.
Children were happy.
No one woke up at 3 a.
m.
had this great idea.
She wanted to kick-start it, doonline store, Shark Tank video,
she didn't know where to startor what to do or what was
involved in order to get to thatpoint B.

(56:40):
So our little group helped guideher through that whole process
of getting the branding and whatthe messaging would be that
would really resonate andphotos.
And it was this whole wonderfullittle package.
I think that it was soparticularly memorable because
of how near and dear it was toher, the near and dear problems
that she was trying to solvejust as an individual.

(57:03):
I think it was near and dear tome.
because of how many big ideasjust start that way,

what about the most successful one that presumably
wasn't as much fun

There's definitely a lot of projects and
clients that I've on over theyears that were very successful,
but probably less fun.
I think it had a lot to do withThe things that we were doing,
more so than the things that wewere working on.
we had a bunch of differentclients who were doing Google
ads and digital marketing andall of that kind of stuff and we

(57:41):
had a bunch of clients that weredoing social media because at
time those avenues wererelatively affordable to be able
to make a certain amount ofimpact.
Since then the algorithm'stweaked and it's a little bit
more difficult and the budgetsare a lot higher now but we were
able to get in the ground andtry a bunch of things out.
think that's another thing thatI loved about those.

(58:03):
kinds of projects, they weresuccessful because were, had a
platform that allowed us to trya bunch things all at once and
whittle out the things thatdidn't work.
We were able A B test a bunch ofdifferent ads, different images,
different language, differentlanding pages, all of these
things to test things out.
And you immediately get thatfeedback again, what resonated

(58:26):
with people, what Drove action.
And so you're able to try abunch of things, fail fast, find
what worked and go with it.
Being able to test your ownassumptions in these ways of, I
think this one is going to be.
I think this one, I'm going todo this email and I'm going to A
B test it with this email.
I think this one is what willresonate and you learn from it.

(58:47):
It's always like a gold starthat you give yourself when
right, but then also it's somuch more valuable when you're
wrong because then you canexamine it, figure out why, and
then be better for it.

I like to think of it as you win or you learn, and
sometimes you do a lot oflearning, but it's, it's not
actually a bad outcome there.

I like that.
And I wish more people had thatsame sentiment and I wish that
more people ultimately believedand understood that sentiment.

I have a personal question for you, about the
emotional chameleon thing, whichis when you're used to being an
emotional chameleon, and you'regood at that, and your sandbox
is about making use of that, andit's also where your economic
value is based, how difficult isit to recognize and express the

(59:46):
needs of your own authentic selfversus the work self?

I think as I've gotten older, I've
definitely learned to embracethat authentic self more as the
mode that I'm going to do thebest self work.
I think it's becoming morewidely understood and accepted
as we're becoming a moreinclusive world that I'm going
to be the best work self ifthere are certain things about

(01:00:16):
my authentic self that are takencare of.
So one of those big things forme is I have ADHD.
So understanding how my brainworks and the scaffolding that I
need to build around myself inorder to function in
environments or situations thatmay not be keen and built for
that kind of level of thinkingis something that I'm cognizant

(01:00:38):
and acutely aware of going intocertain situations.
Everyone has that superpowerwhere the thing about them that
makes them unique, that makesthem really good at what they
do.
Those are all because of thoselittle things and the
scaffolding that we've builtaround ourselves and in the
things that we've learned andcome through.
I

Danu Poyner (01:00:56):
Would you like to talk a bit about the ADHD
diagnosis and how that cameabout and how it's changed your
self understanding, if at all?

Kendra Fee-McNulty (01:01:07):
Oh, absolutely.
Like many women with ADHD, I wasdiagnosed later in life.
I was diagnosed in college,after being put on academic
suspension, for not being ableto have structure and time
management.
And luckily I was in a schoolthat recognizes it says, okay,
you're having some struggles.

(01:01:28):
That's okay.
This is hard.
And let's get you in thisprogram that teaches you those
skills to study and manage yourtime and all of those things.
I can't tell you the number oftimes, on my report card as a
kid, there was the has so muchpotential if only she applied
herself, But being gifted, I wasput in the gifted kid program

(01:01:49):
because it was so obvious that Iwas bored and I wasn't handing
in my assignments and so they'relike, we'll give you some extra
stuff.
But that was still because Ithink as women, we present the
symptoms of ADHD so muchdifferently where we're not
necessarily the loud, obnoxiouskid who's disrupting class.
They're usually quiet ordaydreaming or drawing or

(01:02:12):
doodling.
We're not a problem.
So it's not being thought of assomething that has to be
addressed.
So I was able to coast through.
school and high school andhigher education was where all
of the skills that I didn'tlearn and all of those deficits
that I had and specificallyexecutive dysfunction were made

(01:02:33):
apparent and that was when thespotlight like oh wait, this is
like The red flag and the sirenswere going off like there's
something here that's Not right.
So I was diagnosed in college,and I think that was a huge eye
opener for me, okay, my brainworks a little differently.
I have to do these certainthings in order to work.

(01:02:54):
It wasn't, I think, until COVIDactually, that I really got into
the why of it all, and gotinterested into what is it about
my brain that works differently?
What is it about my brain thatmakes me special, makes things
easier?
What is it about my brain that Ihave challenges with?

(01:03:15):
Why are these things the waythey are?
So then I think I got a lot ofthose questions answered around
the executive dysfunction, howfocus works, how important
writing things down is forsomeone with ADHD or people in
general, but there are thesethings and looking at myself and
seeing them and great it is.
Because of all these things, I'mable to pattern recognize like a

(01:03:39):
champ.
It annoys the people I watchshows with or movies, I'm like
boop a doop, okay, it's that.
Like all of these random thingsand I draw the line, but it's
also challenging because I haveto have lots of alarms and be
reminded.
Or I like to use things like AItranscription so that I can be

(01:04:01):
focused on the conversationrather than trying to make sure
that I capture all the things.
Because if the things don't getwritten down, if I can't take
the important things and putthem in another place, my brain
is like a RAM drive of memory.
And as soon as the My brain isan Etch A Sketch, it eventually

(01:04:24):
gets jostled around and I getdistracted by a squirrel and
then I will forget the thingthat I was working on.
Relatively recently, I've alsofound community.
I think a lot more people arerealizing that their symptoms
are actually symptoms and notjust who they are.
It's such a huge relief, Ithink, for people, and myself
particularly, to realize That,oh wait, you do that too?

(01:04:46):
That's not just me?
Like, I'm not failing as a humanbecause I can't remember a date?
That's so cathartic to feel whenyour entire life you felt like
there was a deficit you.
Being able to find a communitypeople who are like minded like
that, where you can bouncethings off of each other, you
can find Things that work foryou and might work for another.

(01:05:06):
We talk a little bit about theick and the downfall of things
like social media, but I thinkthat's one of the benefits of it
is you're able to find thosecommunities of like minded
people who you can relate to andit helps, I think, to heal those
deficits that people have withinthemselves where, oh, it's the

(01:05:26):
thing, it's not me.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I'm sure there are a lot ofpeople listening who will relate
to that very strongly.
You seem like someone who isreally taking a proactive
approach to managing things andorganizing your life in a way
that works with the way yourbrain wants to work.
And that that works! Not withoutits challenges, perhaps.

I'd say 40 60 it works, you do the things
that You think will work,whether or not they do.
Think that's true for anybodythough and anything that people
are struggling with.
You do the best things you canto set yourself up for success
and you either win or you learn.

Yeah, well said.
So You are now starting your ownventure, Ravelo.
I would like to hear about thatand the reasons that have led
you to make that decision,versus the other paths that were

(01:06:27):
available to you in yourmarketing career and what it's
about and what you're hoping todo.

Yeah, so Ravelo and company is A
marketing communications firm.
We work with mission drivenorganizations, people in
organizations to find theirvoice and share their story.
So, really honing in on howpeople about themselves as a or
as how you're representing buthow you're sharing that story so

(01:06:57):
that can go a number ofdifferent ways depending on
Whether it's an individual andthey want to share their story
and they're working on they somehelp public speaking.
So my biggest focus lot of isthose startups who are starting
out and need extra help.
One client that I consult withhas an idea and there's a lot of

(01:07:18):
different applications for thisidea.
It uses AI and facialrecognition and there's all this
other stuff, but there's so manydifferent applications that
could be used for.
But you can't be everything toeveryone.
So again, going back to beingreally concise, picking one and
really focusing in on that nicheis the hardest thing for a lot

(01:07:40):
of people in a lot oforganizations too, myself
included.
started Ravelo and as I'mtalking about it right now, you
want to be able to say you doall the things cause you don't
want to, for lack of a betterterm, leave money on table.
I do this and this and this andthis, and I can help you do
this.
And I help people do this andnonprofits and startups and
blah, blah, blah.
It's so hard to say I do thisthing for these people.

(01:08:04):
That positioning statement is sochallenging and it's especially
challenging to do it alone.
That's why the headline of mywebsite says, this sentence took
six months to write.
Even as an established businesswho understands your product,
you understand your market, youunderstand all of those things,
you know how to talk about yourthing, but because you have the

(01:08:26):
language for it doesn't meanthat the other person
understands your language Sobeing able to speak to people
and meet people where they are,a big I think, to the types of
problems that to help solve.

What do you say to someone who says, Oh, our
audience is everyone.
Cause you know, but they don'tknow, or they're not ready to
accept the truth that you'vejust outlined yet.
So how do you bring them tothat?

It usuallyycomes down to budget.
Someone who has I can beeverything to everyone, that's
fantastic if you want to beeverything everyone.
In my head, you'll fail at doingthat because you can't be
everything to everyone as ahuman, as a business you either,
in many cases.
However, with that type ofquestion, usually it comes down

(01:09:16):
to the practicalities of whatyou want to be everything to
everyone, but can you at thistime.
Maybe you can be one day, youcan be a conglomerate like GE
that can literally be everythingto everyone at some stage or
another, but it's going to taketime to get to that point.
And usually the biggestconstraint besides time is

(01:09:39):
budget and okay.
But this is the easiest way toreach these people right now.
So, why don't we focus on thesepeople or this audience is gonna
be the biggest drivers.
In my previous company, one ofthe audiences that we really
focused on early were farmersbecause they were a target
audience for the product, butthey also produced the fuel that

(01:10:01):
we used to drive the engine.
So, knowing that it's somethingthat they want, it's helps their
own business grow because ithelps and creates demand for
their product.
It's an easier sell.
It's beneficial for them.
So it creates an advocacy groupthat then can go tell all of
their friends about how great mywidget is.

(01:10:23):
Finding those people that canthen share your story,, I think
is huge.
let's start here, Let's startsmall, let's refine how we talk
about us, and then let's findthose people that will beat the
drum for us in absence andreally help spread that message.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
You're not even saying, youcan't be everything to everyone,
but there's like can't do it allyet because there's time and
there's budget, so why don't westart with what you said right
back at the beginning aboutmaking the little go the longest
way, like why don't we startthere and then see what happens.

Speaking of words that I enjoy so much,'yet'
is one a speech that I want towrite been sitting on the back
while.
But, the power of that word isapparent and you framed it
wonderfully is saying, I am notthe strongest person in my
household I yet.

(01:11:19):
I am not good swimming yet.
You have not played D& D yet.

What is your biggest yet, right now?

My biggest

yet.

I cannot retire yet.

Ha ha ha ha.

A silly yet is I'm not a good watercolor
painter yet.

Oh.
Why is that silly?

I'm not good at making time for my little
hobbies that just are fun, yet.

I like that.
And it doesn't have to be a big,profound, single thing, because
that's how we started thisconversation.
We often put too much emphasison those big, single, profound
things, and actually, it is thelittle things, and following all
the little things one at a time,and then the connections between
them that makes the big,profound thing, and then you
have a name, and you go, boom,and that's the clarity.

(01:12:10):
we like language and namingthings, I want to ask you about
the term grokkist and what doesthe term grokkist mean to you
and is it something thatresonates with you?

The term resonates with me.
you did a great job of framingit two great words, curiosity
and care.
I think the idea of being evercurious comes in a lot different
forms, both in, I'm curious ifI'm good at watercolor, so I'm
going to take some time to learnhow to do that, or I'm curious

(01:12:41):
about how my brain works, or I'mcurious about XYZ thing, and so
I want to look into it.
I think one of my favoritethings, and probably comes from
all of those things that Imentioned earlier was I'm very
curious about people.
one of my favorite things to dois to meet new people, to sit
down have a conversations andlearn everything about them and

(01:13:02):
see those threads and patternsthat they have in their own
lives.
Also part of the things that Ilike about my job is meeting
people and threads that led themto the venture that they're in
now or the history of theorganization, and how it got to
where they are and where theywant to go.
That is so fun.

(01:13:23):
To be curious is to constantlyknow that you are a yet.
That you are continuallyimproving and growing that
growth mindset, that smushy,organ in our heads is.
totally malleable and if youstop paying attention to it and
stop being curious, it's amuscle that eventually will

(01:13:44):
atrophy.
When it comes to care, carecomes in a couple different ways
too, of having care for thepeople that you're curious
about, having care for thingsthat you care about, the
understanding that comes fromempathy sandbox, putting
yourself in other people's shoesand understand that there's a

(01:14:07):
constant room for growth andimprovement.
And when create a culture ofgrowth and improvement, everyone
grows and improves.
Those two really resonate withme and how I relate to it, that
having the ability to connectwith people who are of like
curiosity, who are curious inthings that I maybe haven't been
yet, and so therefore now I wantto know more.

(01:14:29):
but also people to share in thatsandbox of thinking and having
opportunities for connection gobeyond 15 second clips, of being
able to have conversations withpeople and explore things in a
way that is armor off, havingthose real connections.
People are starved a little bit,I think, of that authentic,

(01:14:52):
real, deep connection.

Thank you.
Those are very kind words andI'm glad if it's resonating with
you in that way.
You've talked about yoursentence taking six months.
So far mine's taking two yearsand I still dunno what it means,
but figuring out what it meansis half the fun,

I think, too, one of the benefits of it
and again, one of my things whentrying find out other people's
sentences is it means differentthings to different people.
When you can have resonate, itmeets people where they are,
that's such a powerful thing.

Yeah, that connects what you talked about right at
the beginning about theintersection where you're
putting things out and you'reneeding to think about how
they're being received.
That's where we're meetingpeople where they are, I think.
So that's a really nice thought.
I'm curious, with Ravelo andcompany, what kinds of people
you're hoping to meet.

(01:15:45):
and connect with.
In particular because of whatyou said about the way the world
is changing and the way peopleare starved and fatigued of
being sold to in lots ofscenarios, what kinds of people
are you hoping to meet andconnect with with Ravelo and
company?

that is way phrase that question.
The type of mission drivenorganizations who are out to do
something.
It could be as grand as solvingclimate change.
It could be as grand as I wantto start a business that helps
support my family.
I don't belittle or comparethose two missions on scale

(01:16:27):
because they're equally asimportant, there has to be a
heart behind it for me in orderto do my job well.
but also to want to do my jobwell.
I think that's a big piece forme.
There's been millions ofmarketing studies that can speak
to specifics, but when there isa strong sense of mission,
there's greater success, handsdown.

(01:16:47):
One of the biggest pieces ofadvice that I've learned so far
in my time in the startup worldis get the experts.
Is having lots of people in yourcorner who are very good at what
they do, to help guide you onthe right path is one of the
easiest ways to make sure thatyou are on the right path at all
and not walking into the streetor into the woods.

(01:17:07):
I think being one of thosepeople for an organization,
Being able to be on someone'sbench and cheer them on in the
big game, as it may be, isdefinitely something that I'm
looking for to connect withpeople.
another is those organizationsor individuals that are
struggling for how to take thisthing that's really complicated

(01:17:32):
and boil it down in to an easyway to talk about it.
You see this in particular witha lot of hard tech where they
have a big complicated widgetthat has all of these physics
involved in order to understandand explain how it works, but
boiling that down in a way thatmakes sense and communicating

(01:17:55):
that in a really strong way willmake their impact go even
further.
When you're able To saysomething big really succinctly,
I like to imagine it as asnowball actually.
Like, when you have a lot ofsnow and you can pack it down
and say it really succinctly,you can throw that a lot

(01:18:16):
farther.

if someone is listening to this and going,
yes, that sounds like me and Iwould like to talk more about
that, but I don't have resourcesor that sounds scary, on a, yes,
it's nice to have all theexperts, but how can I do that
with time and budget?
What should they do?

Reach outout and we can have a chat.
There's different avenues anddifferent pathways that we can
at Ravelo kind of structure arelationship so that it makes
the most sense for everyoneinvolved.
The Best place to get moreinformation is my website,
Raveloe.
co.
So R A V E L O E dot C O.
is a good jumping off point, butultimately just let's have a

(01:18:56):
conversation.

Yeah, absolutely.
Everything good that's everhappened to me in my life has
started with a conversation thatdidn't have an agenda.
We will put all of those linksin the show notes and make it
easy for people to find you.
After everything that we'vetalked about today and knowing
what you know now, if you couldgo back And talk to young

(01:19:17):
Kendra.
Kendra who's hiking and learningabout the Empathy Sandbox.
What moment would you choose togo back to and what would you
tell her?

Assuming I could do that and not affect
where I am today, I think Iwould go back to high school,
maybe it's because I'm a parentto a high schooler now, but I
think it would be just keepgoing.
And reminding them of theSpotlight Syndrome, no one cares
about you as much as you careabout you.

(01:19:47):
So don't worry about them.
I think that's something even asan adult is so hard to remember
and unlearn about when you're akid, is what other people think
of you has no effect on who youare as an individual.
And so just do your thing.

I reckon I would have saved about seven or eight
years off my particular timelineif I'd had advice from someone I
was prepared to listen to.
So that's a good one.
The next question is even moredifficult than that.
It's the question I ask everyonewho comes on the podcast, which
is if you could give someone alife changing learning
experience, what would it be andwhy?

it would be public speaking, that kind of
crash course in anyone who hasthat fear about talking in
public, impromptu speaking, allof those pieces being just
comfortable doing it can justhave such A great impact on
someone's trajectory in theirlife.

(01:20:48):
There's so many instances whereyou need to speak in front of
people as much as it is having aconversation on a podcast or
having a conversation with aperson, being comfortable in
that moment and being able toexpress yourself is a gift that
a lot of people because they'reafraid don't try to Learn so I

(01:21:09):
think it's pretty valuable

like that answer.
I should have seen that answercoming.
The most surprising answer I'veever had to that question was
from an estate planner whosegift would be a near death
experience, because of what itdoes when you go through that,
it changes you.
So it strikes me that the giftof public speaking is like a
near death experience in someways, because it's what people

(01:21:32):
are afraid of the most.
So thank you very much for that.
It's a good answer.
We didn't get a lot of time totalk about Eileen Benz, who you
mentioned a couple of times, butit strikes me that some of what
you are doing and what you'rehoping to achieve would be to be
like an Eileen Benz to others.

(01:21:53):
I wondered if you wanted to saysomething about that in the time
we have.

I didn't realize it until this moment,
but I think you just hit thenail on the head.
Trying to be able to speakwithout getting weepy.
Um, I think that when you findout what your superpower is,
when you find out, what thatthing is that drives you, I call
it my superpower.
Kind of the red thread, like,what's that string that kind of

(01:22:18):
holds it all together.
Once you kind of reallyunderstand what that is, I think
the natural inclination is touse it for the best possible
good.
Use it for good, not for evil.
So I think you hit the nail onthe head with Eileen.
She used her superpower of beinga wonderful teacher and a great
communicator to open up thiswhole new world for me and why I

(01:22:43):
think public speaking is so nearand dear to my heart.
And based on our conversationtoday, all of the different
things throughout my squigglystory that kind of all thread
together about getting goodfeedback, having people in your
corner to help you grow, thebenefit of succinct
communication and howchallenging that can be, around.
words and the way we think aboutthings, about being curious and

(01:23:06):
understanding people, that theimportance of that empathy and
how we speak to other peoplebecause how people receive it is
as important as what say.
I think all of those kinds ofthings boiled down is I want to
be able use them for as muchgood and make as much impact
myself as I can.
And I love the idea being ableto do that through all of these

(01:23:29):
great that I get the benefit andprivilege to work with.

I think that you're well on your way to that, and
anyone who has the pleasure andthe privilege of encountering
you at this stage of yoursuperpower journey will have the
whole world opened to them ofstrategic narrative and
communication for good.
So, anyone, if that's you, Iwould strongly recommend you
talk to Kendra.

(01:23:55):
Thank you so much for makingtime to speak with me today.
I really appreciate it.
and good luck with your newventure.

Thank you.
This was a lot of fun.

All Episodes

Message Received: how authentic communication helps us find our voice and share our story - Kendra Fee-McNulty | S4E4

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Message Received: how authentic communication helps us find our voice and share our story - Kendra Fee-McNulty | S4E4