In this episode: Navigating the dynamics of death, grief and loss, from brain fog to finding a sense of control. Arguing over estates and why 70% of people don't make plans for what happens after they die. Explaining the mechanics of probate with a story about picking berries. Being a stage magician and how magic helps with storytelling. What we can learn from near-death experiences. Why patience matters in law as well as in marriage. Swimming and mindfulness.
About the Guest: Robert Kabacy has been a lawyer in the estate planning and wealth transfer industries for more than twenty-five years. He grew up in the small town of Canby, Oregon, where he was a competitive swimmer. He attended law school to pursue his passion of helping others navigate a complicated legal and tax world and has an uncanny ability to explain complicated concepts in an easy-to-understand format. About Me is a result of the passing of his mother and experiencing firsthand the difficulty of losing a loved one while navigating the mechanics that go with it. He enjoys reading, stage/parlor magic, and outdoor activities. He still swims almost daily (though no longer competitively). Learn more at robertkabacy.com.
Recorded 6 May 2022
Links:
- About Me: Information You Will Need When I've Passed on Amazon [https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Kabacy/e/B09VS4QP3P?ref_=dbs_p_pbk_r00_abau_000000]
- Robert's website [http://robertkabacy.com/]
--
About the Host: Despite never letting school interfere with his education, Danu has nevertheless acquired two social science degrees and an executive MBA. He toils at the intersection of education, technology and society and has worked at various times in teaching, research, project management, business development and customer service. He has so many interests that he has started to outsource them, and his life plan is rapidly running out of alphabet. [Danu's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danupoyner/]
Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon
Website: grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast | Email: podcast@grokk.ist | Socials: @grokkist
Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Kabacy (00:00):
Whether it's a small estate or a large estate, the
(00:02):
actual emotions behind thedisputes are pretty similar.
I have seen small estates wheredisputes arise because so-and-so
took someone's doll when theywere younger and they're not
going to get away with it now,and they are going to fight to
the death and spend the wholeestate on lawyers, just to spite
(00:23):
the other person.
In the super wealthy estates youadd the emotional aspect of
money.
There's more to fight about.
Danu Poyner (00:34):
You're listening to the Still Curious Podcast with
me, Danu Poyner.
My guest today is Robert Kabacywho has been a lawyer in the
estate planning and wealthtransfer industries for more
than 25 years.
Robert has recently written abook called About Me:
Information You Will Need WhenI've Passed, which is a result
of the passing of his mother andexperiencing firsthand the
(00:55):
difficulty of losing a loved onewhile navigating the mechanics
that go with it.
Bob Kabacy (01:00):
Here I am an estate planner allegedly prepared for
death, but just experiencingthis brain fog with the loss of
a loved one.
if I'm going through this, howare other people handling it?
Danu Poyner (01:11):
Bob is also a magician as a serious hobby.
And although I was half jokingwhen I asked him whether he ever
combines magic and estateplanning, I'm glad I did.
Bob Kabacy (01:20):
Magic is a lot about storytelling.
we'll include it inpresentations on estate
planning, you talk about howestate planning can be really
complicated, you tossed theRubik's cube in the air.
And as you catch it, you can saybut if you're guided correctly,
it doesn't have to becomplicated.
And as you catch the mixed upRubik's cube, you show it
completely saw as if it solvedin the air.
Danu Poyner (01:43):
Although today's episode is a powerful discussion
about the challenging subject ofnavigating the dynamics of death
and grief, it's alsosurprisingly fun and never dull.
We cover a lot of ground fromhow dealing with death head-on
can give us a sense of control,telling a story about picking
berries to explain the mechanicsof probate, how the brain has to
(02:04):
remap itself when dealing withloss and the surprising moments
that can arise when people workthrough the book he has created.
Bob Kabacy (02:11):
Even after 25 years of marriage, we learned things
about each other and she wouldwrite things down.
I'm like, I didn't know youwanted that.
Danu Poyner (02:18):
We also learn about how Bob was a peacekeeper on the
school playground, how swimmingis good for mindfulness and why
patience matters in law as wellas in marriage.
And Bob's answer to my usualquestion about gifting, a
life-changing learningexperience is the most
unexpected I've had from any ofmy guests so far.
Throughout the wholeconversation, what strikes me
(02:39):
most is Bob's abiding passionand care for a subject most of
us would prefer not to thinkabout.
Bob Kabacy (02:45):
The concept of death and loss and the human reaction
to it.
I really feel like part of mypurpose is helping guide people
through that because we don'thave those guides in school.
This is what I want to do withmy life And have enjoyed it
every moment, even after almost30 years of doing that.
Danu Poyner (03:05):
I was grateful to spend some time listening to
Bob's practical wisdom.
I hope you will be too.
It's Robert Kabacy coming upafter the music on today's
episode of the Still CuriousPodcast.
Well, hi Bob.
Welcome to the podcast.
Bob Kabacy (03:18):
Thanks for having me here.
I'm doing great today.
It's a delight to be here.
Danu Poyner (03:22):
So you've been a lawyer in the estate planning
and wealth transfer industriesfor more than 25 years.
And you're the author of thebook,"About Me: Information you
will need when I've passed",you've also been a competitive
swimmer and you practice stageand parlor magic.
That's a fascinating mix.
What would you say is the mostimportant thing for someone to
understand about what you do?
Bob Kabacy (03:43):
Well, I think there's a couple of things.
Number one, I really want tohelp people.
Whether it's in a technicalmanner, my legal profession or
through the book, or eventhrough a grieving process.
And then in an, entertainmentmanner, with the magic it's
helping suspend their belief fora few minutes in a very tough
world and just experience thingslike children experience,
(04:06):
freshly fallen snow for thefirst time.
Just getting them out of theirroutine and stuff.
The second thing in why I'vedone so much is I want to make
sure that I get a full lifeunder my belt before it's my
time to go.
Cause we only get one turnaround at this and I want to do
the best I can and experiencethe most I can while helping the
most people that I can andduring the process.
Danu Poyner (04:28):
Thank you.
What a great answer.
We'll come to your book in alittle while, cause I think it's
really interesting and it'sunlike anything I've seen before
but before we do that, I'd liketo ask you a bit about estate
planning.
It's a topic we don't thinkabout much, even though all of
us will need to engage with itat some point.
So the first thing I wanted toask you is as a lawyer in estate
planning and wealth transfer,what are some of the main
(04:51):
difficulties you find yourclients have?
Bob Kabacy (04:53):
I think the number one difficulty by far as
procrastination.
Estate planning deals with deathand nobody wants to recognize
that they will pass one day.
I think it's a survival instinctand our ego telling us that we
won't pass.
The statistics tend to show thatseven out of 10 people don't
have any form of estateplanning, which is really
surprising given that there'staxes involved, sometimes
(05:16):
probate court.
So definitely procrastination.
Analysis paralysis is anotherone.
They want to collect all thedata and become an expert to
make the right decision.
And I understand that, butestate planning is a field that
requires us to consider our ownmortality and apply a set of
technical rules to it.
So the analysis paralysis canreally inhibit the planning
(05:39):
process.
One other thing that issometimes a challenge for the
clients is the cost of estateplanning.
Everybody wants to get a greatdeal and nobody wants to pay
more than they need to.
But estate planning's a fieldwhere you get what you pay for.
In You wouldn't go to a generalsurgeon in order to have open
(06:00):
heart surgery.
You'd want to go through acardiac surgeon.
Choosing an expert who isfamiliar with the rules.
You'll be able to really get thebest result.
Trying to do it yourself.
Let me just comment about thatfor one moment.
Estate planning is not likehanging a shower curtain because
if I make a mistake and it fallsdown, I get embarrassed, but I
(06:22):
would not try to change thebrakes on my car, because if I
do, bad things could happen ifthey fail.
I could hurt myself or others.
Estate planning, you can do alot of damage without knowing
that you're doing damage.
So it's a little bit more likechanging the brakes on a car,
then hanging in the shower.
Danu Poyner (06:39):
It's such an interesting topic because as you
say, most of us procrastinateand don't want to think about
it.
If we do, then we don't knowwhere to start or we feel
overwhelmed.
And it's also high-impact if weget it wrong.
Death and grief are not topicswe're used to talking about in
general.
We don't learn about them inschool specifically.
And they're uncomfortable.
(06:59):
Do you find that there's powerin addressing those head-on?
Bob Kabacy (07:03):
Absolutely.
Death is a very uncomfortablesubject.
What I've learned over time isthat.
We as human beings really shareat least two things in common.
Number one, we're born.
And number two, we die.
Being born is really a creationwhere death is a loss and we all
(07:24):
fear loss.
We wouldn't want to lose ourcell phone.
A lot of us really fear thatprobably more than death in
these days.
But death is a loss of a lovedone.
We don't talk about it inschool.
We tend to fear it and I thinkwe do so because birth is a
celebration and loss as amorning.
(07:44):
And in either case our brainshave to remap.
And when they remap, they do soeither in a celabratory fashion,
like when the child is born orin a fashion to overcome a loss.
We don't like dealing withremapping of the brain when
there's grief involved.
We're human beings.
It is a very uncomfortabletopic.
(08:06):
By addressing it head-on I feelthat we can look at it in a way
that allows us to just acceptit.
It's going to happen.
There's no doubt about that.
I think one tool for addressingit.
And I've heard this in a coupleof, sociology podcasts is that
instead of addressing in the, Iam going to die, we address it
(08:30):
in the, we are going to die, orit will happen to all of us
someday.
By recognizing that in that way,it's a little bit softer.
It becomes a little lessuncomfortable because we're part
of a bigger group.
Danu Poyner (08:42):
How does it conversation with a client about
estate planning usually start?
Bob Kabacy (08:47):
Well, it usually starts with the client saying,
oh, I don't need that.
I'm not going to die anytimesoon.
And I say, that's great, buttell me when you are going to
die.
Well, it's not any time soon.
It was very unpredictable andthere's a couple of professions
that see more death than me,like an emergency room doctor,
or a clergy person.
(09:08):
But in terms of seeing death, Ijust left a meeting here today.
The woman was telling me about agood friend who is 50 with seven
kids ranging from, 12 years oldto 24 who just had cardiac
arrest and died just right away.
We don't know when it's going tohappen to us.
I think we go back to somethingone of the boys Scouts said long
(09:31):
ago, which is be prepared.
And that's what estate planningis all about is getting
prepared, being prepared,knowing that it's coming and not
knowing when it's coming, it'sbetter to be prepared than not
because the consequences of notbeing prepared, can include
greater costs, greateruncertainty, a longer time
period for administration.
Danu Poyner (09:53):
Definitely.
You're often encountering peopleat a difficult time.
I imagine how do you balance themechanical and the
administrative side of thingswith that human and emotional
side?
Bob Kabacy (10:06):
That is a challenge, and there are two different
parts, as you've pointed out,the mechanical side of things is
very rule-based.
We know what a will does.
We know what a trust does.
We know what the tax rules are.
That's all mechanics.
The emotional side of things isdifferent for everybody.
We all grieve in different ways.
We all plan in different way.
(10:28):
So I have to be very attune andlisten to what's important to
them.
And if I don't do that and I mixthe mechanical with the
emotional, too much, I could becriticized for basically doing
my job, but people want toseparate the mechanical from the
emotional.
They want to tell their storyand solve their issue in their
(10:50):
immediate need or insecurity.
And then how it's done is themechanical side of things.
They're less concerned with, howa Q-tip election is made or what
the language of the technicalaspects of the trust or will is,
and more concerned about,where's my stuff going, and
who's going to take care ofthings and how are people going
(11:10):
to get into my phone and handleall my accounts and automatic
bill pays.
Those are things that are theemotional tugs on us.
For a lot of us, we feel guiltyfor not being prepared.
I suppose there are some peopleout there who just don't care
and say, I'm going to be deadand it doesn't matter to me.
Danu Poyner (11:27):
So is there sometimes emotional comfort to
be had in the mechanical sideand they're having a plan and a
process?
Bob Kabacy (11:35):
Well, I think so in the reason is because when I
guide a client through theprocess, we focus on the
mechanical and help themunderstand what the options are.
And by doing that, we're able toaddress death in a very third
person manner, which is here'show a plan operates.
And yes, we're talking aboutyour death and yes, that will
(11:58):
occur someday.
It's not happening today.
But if it does happen, here arethe steps that our people are
going to have to go through andthe rules, how we save the taxes
and what we do to make sure thatthe state is properly
administered.
So, absolutely I think themechanical does help us address
the death topic.
(12:18):
But again, I'll tell you sevenout of 10 people just ignore it
all together and say, not goingto happen today.
I feel great.
I don't need a will.
And then next thing you know,they pass away without a will
and that's where things canstart going differently than you
would expect.
Danu Poyner (12:36):
This is probably a good opportunity to talk about
your book then, which is calledAbout Me Information You Will
Need When I've Passed.
First of all, what sets you onthe path of writing a book and
what did you want to achieve?
Bob Kabacy (12:49):
Yeah, this is a interesting story 20 years ago.
Actually a little bit longerthan that, my mother approached
me and said that she wanted toget her estate plan done because
she had just been diagnosed withcancer and I've been doing
estate planning for awhile.
So I said, I'd be glad to do it.
Our ethical rules authorizethat.
I started working through theestate stuff and I realized that
(13:09):
there was a whole bunch ofpractical stuff that even though
I was close with my mother, Ijust didn't know about certain
things like who her doctor wasor what medication she was on or
what she wanted at a funeral.
And we're really facing deathhead on because she says, look,
I've got cancer.
It's not going to be cured.
And I am going to pass andyou're going to be the one
(13:30):
administering.
So I got very insecure aboutthat.
Knowing that the matriarch of myfamily was no longer going to be
here and really startedquestioning her and working with
her on a process to write thingsdown and ask her questions about
those practical non-legal thingsas a companion to the estate
(13:51):
plan that I was writing.
What I didn't realize though,was the profound impact that
that little three ring binderwould have on me after she
passed.
She got worse as would beexpected with cancer.
And I would be visiting herdaily until the very end.
But every day I would still gointo work before I'd come visit
(14:13):
her.
I was just waiting for the call.
And one day I got the call andrushed over there and she had
expired and it was verydifficult, experiencing it
firsthand.
That's when I really became anestate planner because I had
lived through a loss like that.
What I didn't realize waspulling out that three ring
(14:33):
binder in my estate plan withall the questions that I had
asked her really gave me a senseof control in an uncontrolled
environment.
All the information I needed wasright at my fingertips.
I was able to work throughthings in an organized fashion.
I was able to answer questionswhen asked by people I was
working with to administer theestate and answering the
(14:56):
questions quickly.
It was really comforting tohave, and here I am an estate
planner allegedly prepared fordeath, but just experiencing
this brain fog with the loss ofa loved one.
Having that book really, reallyhelped me a lot.
I thought if I'm going throughthis, how are other people
(15:16):
handling it?
That was why I wrote this book.
Danu Poyner (15:18):
As an estate planning lawyers, tempting to
say at face value that yourexperience would have put you in
a better position than most tohandle that situation and work
through that grief.
But what was that like?
Bob Kabacy (15:31):
It was very, very human.
I will try to explain it morethe best I can.
I had experienced grief throughmy client's eyes many, many
times before that, but when it'spersonal and you have thick
memories and you have a lot ofpersonal interaction with the
individual who is no longerthere forever.
(15:53):
They're gone forever.
You really take note of that andit's emotionally overwhelming
and I'm not saying my book is amagic pill that solves the grief
issue, but it's something thatis there to assist.
And surprisingly, it gave me asense of control.
That was one thing that stoodout.
Second thing that stood out isit gave me the information and
(16:16):
the memories.
I still have that today.
Uh, So it's been a very goodtool for me, even 20 years later
to come to grips with the lossof a loved one.
Danu Poyner (16:27):
You mentioned brain fog, which I thought was an
interesting term.
I wonder if you can describewhat the experience of that is
like a little more.
Bob Kabacy (16:36):
Yeah, sure.
Throughout the day, I knowexactly what to do.
I'm trained as an estateplanning lawyer, I've watched
clients experience grief.
I've experienced grief throughthe loss of a pet previously,
and I understand that you cryand you feel bad and then life
goes on, but I had neverexperienced it quite this way.
(16:59):
And despite knowing all therules and despite knowing what
needed to be done, the brain fogset in, and I was a little bit,
frankly, confused and notwanting to deal with it and a
little bit depressed and goingthrough all those stages of
emotions and just understandingthat it was normal.
And frankly, wanting to take inas much as I could so that I
(17:23):
could experience it as well,because if I experienced it,
knowing that all my clientsexperience it, I could be very
much more empathetic with themthrough the process.
Danu Poyner (17:33):
It sounds like even in that difficult moment, there
was a part of you registeredthat this was an important thing
for you to take in theexperience for your role.
Bob Kabacy (17:43):
Yes.
Loss is part of life.
It just, it is.
We lose objects.
We lose family members.
We lose spouses, we losechildren, we lose things.
It's a part of living.
I wanted to feel what my clientswere feeling and personally
experience it, but I'll tell youit wasn't a choice.
I recognized it for what it wasand said, wow, this is really
(18:07):
what they're going through.
How can I help them ease thepain, ease the burden, ease the
information overload and maketheir lives a little bit easier
in the time when it's neededmost.
It's confused.
You kinda lose sense of time.
You don't care as much.
I'm not a psychologist.
I have a psychology degree, butI'm not a psychologist, but I
(18:29):
just felt like my brain washaving to rewire itself.
And during that remapping, I wastired a lot.
And it just took an immenseamount of energy to get through
that.
Danu Poyner (18:39):
there's something reassuringly tangible about a
three ring binder in that kindof situation I imagine is that
one of the reasons why youdecided that a book was the
right medium for this, asopposed to a document on a
computer?
Bob Kabacy (18:54):
Yeah.
It was.
And a couple of reasons.
One, remember I'm putting thethree ring binder together 20
years ago and 20 years ago, weweren't living in the same world
we're living in.
Having the three ring binder ora book is something tangible
that you hold on to.
The other reason that I wantedto do a book is because.
(19:15):
It's easy and it's accessible.
You open the book up, you writein it and you put it on your
shelf and somebody can take itas a tangible representation of
you as opposed to an electronicscreen, which frankly, we're all
afraid that we'll hit the deletebutton accidentally, or a
electromagnetic pulse will wipeout our data or we'll lose the
(19:39):
passwords and not be able to getin to the system.
So having an electronic we'vestayed away from that for two
reasons.
One, there's a lot of personalinformation in the book, and I
don't think that we want thatavailable on the computer with
all the hacking today and on theweb with all the hacking, uh,
Number two.
(20:00):
If it's on the computer orsomebody has to be able to go
get on the computer, figure outthe password, figuring out where
to go, figure out how to openit.
It's too hard.
People will ignore it.
Whereas if you have a bookthat's on the shelf that says
about me, I'm going to go rightto that book, open it up.
And if it's all about theperson, what a gift.
Danu Poyner (20:20):
That's a really nice way to think about it.
I've gone through the book and Iwas surprised by how practical
it is, and also just thephysical size of it.
It left me with the impressionthere's a lot of thought that's
gone into how it will be used inpractice.
And you were alluding to that.
I think walking into the roomand finding it.
Can you tell me a bit about thatthought that's gone into it?
Bob Kabacy (20:42):
Sure.
So as a lawyer, of course Iwrote originally and sentences
that were probably 150 wordslong with multi-syllable words.
My editor said, no, no, no, thisis not going to work.
It might work for other lawyers,but it doesn't work for
everybody else.
So, edit, edit, edit, edit,edit, edit, edit, edit all
(21:04):
during COVID had it, had it, hadit, had it.
Yes.
I was so tired of editing andsimplifying and working with the
editor.
Trying to bring it to a pointthat was understandable and
tangible.
And that's one of the thingsthat I've actually been praised
for at the end was that it'seasy to read.
It's easy to follow.
It's big print, which I insistedupon because so many of my
(21:27):
clients can't read 11 or 12point type.
They need 14 or 16 point type tojust get through something.
So we wanted to make it simpleand easy because if it's not
simple and easy people, aren'tgoing to do it.
So a lot of editing, a lot ofthought went into it.
I wanted to make sure that whenyou open the book, it's a
(21:48):
special cover design that itstays open by itself.
And I also, because of thetitle, worked with the publisher
and said, this book should nothave my name on the cover.
It's one of the only books wherethe author's name is not on the
cover.
In fact, I've had troublefinding another one, but it's
(22:08):
not about me.
It's about the person who ownsthe books.
All that thought and thegraphics and the colors and the
paper, even the paper is aspecial paper heavy that doesn't
bleed through.
And it doesn't smear ink.
All of that was thought through.
And fortunately during COVID, wehad a lot of time.
So a lot of care went into thisbook.
(22:29):
Countless hours.
Danu Poyner (22:30):
And that's, I think a better word, a lot of care,
rather than a lot of thought orboth really, but I think the
care is important.
Can you tell me a little bitabout people will find in the
book and how it works?
Bob Kabacy (22:41):
Sure.
There's three main sections inthe book.
The first section is acustomizable fill out section
that asks you easy questionsabout you and all the practical
non-legal staff.
Again, that's a good companionwith an estate plan.
Like how do you get into yourphone?
How do you shut off bill pays?
What bill pays do you have?
(23:01):
What are your passwords?
Who's your doctor?
What do you want at yourfuneral?
Who do you not want to come toyour funeral and all the
practical stuff that is aboutyou?
And we've been prettycomprehensive all the way down
to pets and everything else.
Second part of the book, whichis different and there's nothing
out there like it.
Our chapters on how toadminister an estate.
(23:24):
What is probate?
What taxes are involved, how tohandle grief?
What if a dispute arise?
Very easy to read chapters andI'll tell ya.
That was another thing that wassurprising to me when my mother
had passed was during the dayyou're busy making phone calls,
waiting for return calls,filling out paperwork, doing
things, but six o'clock comesaround and the world shuts down
(23:48):
and then you're alone and you'resitting there and you're like,
okay, what do I do now?
So having these chapters reallygive you a continuation of that
sense of control, because youcan read through them again and
again, and then plan the nextday and figure out what you're
doing the next day.
And it helps you in that offtime during the night, the third
(24:08):
part of the book is about,resources like websites,
telephone numbers, and, otherhelpful information with
glossary about terms.
So if you are visiting with yourestate planning lawyer, and they
use words, you're not familiarwith, you can look them up in
the glossary.
Then there's a whole number ofpages in the back that are just
free flow thinking.
(24:29):
If you want to write a letter toyour kids, or you want to remind
somebody of something oranything you want to talk about,
there's blank pages that letsyou speak your mind and tell
people what was really importantto you.
Danu Poyner (24:42):
Do you find from your experience of how people
are using the book that it'ssomething very personal that
someone would fill out bythemselves in a quiet moment, or
is it an occasion to get thefamily together and discuss it?
I'm really curious about howpeople are using this.
Bob Kabacy (24:58):
That's a great question.
And in fact, I've talked to thepublisher about that exact
question and we have it sold asone book.
The idea was that somebody wouldfill it out.
But what I've experienced isthat even with myself and my
spouse, we each filled one outtogether.
And even after 25 years ofmarriage, we learned things
(25:19):
about each other and she wouldwrite things down.
I'm like, I didn't know youwanted that.
We had different answers fordifferent things.
And then for some families, theysit down with parents and
children or parents, children,and grandchildren, and they go
through it together and theyfill it out together.
And then they put it on theshelf of the estate planning
documents.
So I've talked to the publisherabout a spousal set, as well as
(25:42):
a family set that can fill outthese things together as a group
or as a couple, instead of justas an individual, I think doing
it together, even if you justhave one book is.
Helpful because it does twothings.
One, it gets you disciplined toactually fill it out because
look, let's be honest.
This book is a good book.
(26:02):
The chapters are very helpful,but the fill out section, isn't
going to be valuable unless youactually fill it out.
So you have to have thediscipline to do it.
It doesn't take long, but youhave to sit down.
And if you find a partner to sitdown with and say, Hey, I'm
going to do this thing veryimportant.
You can crochet or knit and Ijust need half an hour to fill
this out.
(26:23):
Get it done.
That's what I would suggest.
But yes, having other peoplethere to help you is good, but
make sure they're trusted.
You wouldn't want to do it with,exposing your passwords or
something to somebody you don'ttrust or just doing it at a
Starbucks or on camera.
Danu Poyner (26:39):
Coming back to what you said at the start about
procrastination and how most ofus avoid this, do you find that
the book helps get past that?
Or is the procrastination stillan issue?
Bob Kabacy (26:50):
Procrastination will always be an issue, I think with
human beings, because if you cando it tomorrow, generally, we
want to do it tomorrow andtomorrow, of course never comes.
So there's actually two hurdleswith this book.
The first hurdle is actuallypurchasing it and I've had lots
of people say, oh yeah, I'mgoing to get it.
I just forgot.
It's because they just don'twant to acknowledge death or
(27:12):
deal with this situation.
The second is actually fillingit out.
I worked with the publisher onseveral mechanisms to try to
overcome procrastination.
The bottom line is there's justreally no easy answer.
It's a little bit like workingout.
I get home at the end of the dayand I'm tired and I look at the
(27:32):
swimming pool and I'm like, do Ireally want to get in?
It's raining.
I have a thousand excuses as towhy not to go work out that day.
We can make up a thousandexcuses as to why not to do
this, but there's one goodreason why to do it.
If something happens to you,it's a great gift for those
loved ones you leave behindbecause without it, their job
(27:54):
will be harder.
Danu Poyner (27:56):
Thank you for explaining that.
On the technical side, youmentioned a term before probate.
One of the things that I alwaysask people on the podcast is to
explain something about theirpractice as if to a 10 year old.
And hopefully in this case, a 10year old, who won't need to know
about probate for a good while,but I wonder if you could do
that.
Bob Kabacy (28:15):
Sure.
Sure.
I usually like drawing analogiesand telling stories because
people can relate to that.
Oftentimes I'll ask my clients,if they ever have gone out and
picked blackberries orstrawberries or something, and
most people have picked somesort of Berry.
And I say, well, what do youtake with you when you go pick
berries?
And I get a lot to differentanswers, but the general answer
(28:36):
is a bucket.
I say, okay, let's imagine thata bucket is a trust and the
berries are your assets.
So each Blackberry represents anasset, like a house or a bank
account or something like that.
When you pick that Blackberry oracquire the.
You have a choice of putting itin your hand, owning it in your
(28:57):
own name or putting it in thebucket, owning it in the name of
the trust.
If you put the Blackberry inyour hand or in the bucket, you
can eat them.
You can trade them for otherberries.
You can give them away.
You have full control over theberries, but the difference is
at death with the berries inyour hand, rigor, mortis sets in
(29:18):
crushing those berries, creatinga mess.
In that situation, we have amess with the assets.
We have to go to court to cleanit up.
And that's what probate is allabout, is to take the assets
that are in someone's individualname and give someone legal
authority over those assets sothey can transfer them to those
(29:39):
who are living, the heirs,whether they're expressed in the
will or not.
Whereas the blackberries in thebucket, we can just simply set
the bucket down, the trust, andwe can name a successor trustee
who can immediately distributethose blackberries consistent
with our instructions withouthaving to go to court.
When I give that analogy, a lotof times clients say, well, I
(30:00):
don't want blackberries in myhand.
I want them in the bucketbecause I don't want to go to
court.
It's a long process.
It's a public process and courtscharge money lawyers, charge
money, and it can be fairlyexpensive, depending on the
circumstances.
Danu Poyner (30:15):
What a great explanation.
That's gonna stick in my mindfor sure.
I've been very struck by the waythat you have explained things
so far with various analogies.
I think that's always the markof a good teacher.
But I want to zoom out a littlebit and talk about your own
personal journey.
You have this facility forexplaining complex things in a
(30:37):
simple way.
And estate planning is not afield that everyone would
necessarily have as their plana.
Did you have a plan, a.
Bob Kabacy (30:45):
I did.
Since I was a kid, I wanted tobe a policeman.
When I grew up, you were apoliceman doctor, fireman, all
the traditional roles, and Iwanted to be the policeman cause
the policemen helped people,they followed a set of rules
that kept order.
And over time, I kind ofrealized that maybe being on the
frontline wasn't for me in thatregard, but I still wanted to
(31:08):
help people and follow the rulesand support the system.
So through a series of decisionsand stuff, I decided to go into
private practice.
But I can tell you that being alawyer is what I've wanted to do
since I was about, well, after Iwanted to be a policeman, I
thought, nah, I'm not going tobe a doctor.
Hey, being a lawyer can reallyhelp.
(31:29):
And I did, even on theplayground helped people,
mediate little playgrounddisputes and stuff, but I always
wanted people to get along andwork together and have a good
result as opposed to trying todo battle.
I can remember that there weretwo kids and it was a kickball
game.
And one of the kids didsomething or said something.
(31:52):
I don't even remember what itwas.
And the other kid just wasreally upset about it to the
point that the circle startedforming.
You could hear it, thebackground, that fight flight
fight chant.
And I pulled one of them asideand I said, Hey, what are you
doing?
Let's think about this.
I understand something was said,but let's think about what's
going to happen here.
(32:12):
I don't care.
I don't care.
And I said, whoa, wait a minute,wait a minute, come over here.
Listen to me.
You're going to get kicked outof school.
This is going to happen.
The results of this are going tobe bad.
I like you.
I want you to be here and.
He settled down and I don'tknow, I probably wasn't
listening to me, but enough timehad passed that it became less
of a emotional issue for him andmore of a do I really want to do
(32:36):
this?
And they ended up walking away.
I think everybody else wasdisappointed.
Danu Poyner (32:40):
That is a win on the playground, I think.
That's not something you seevery often.
Normally you see the fight.
I've heard you say in otherplaces that one of the most
important qualities for a lawyerto have is patience.
I'd love to hear you talk a bitmore
danu_poyner-2022-5-6__10- (32:53):
about
Danu Poyner (32:54):
that.
Bob Kabacy (32:54):
so patience has not always come easy and it doesn't
always come easy for a lot ofpeople, but being a lawyer,
having patience sometimes servesme better than not.
Looking at it, what is patience?
Patience is really, I think askill that's developed from
listening, analyzing, thinkingabout letting time pass and
(33:19):
trying to ascertain what is thebest solution for the issues
that are presented.
I think by having patience weusually get to the right answer.
I also think by having patientswe're able to solve difficult
problems and communicate better.
I'll give you a direct example.
I had a client meeting recentlyand clients were trying to
(33:42):
understand how an estate planworked and no matter what
analogies I used or how I wasexplaining it, I just wasn't
getting across.
And they were getting a littlebit frustrated and I was getting
frustrated, but I said tomyself, I've got to have
patience with these folks.
I'm here as their selectedexpert to guide them through
this difficult situation.
(34:04):
I've got to find a way toconnect with them on a level
that they can understand.
Finally, what I did is insteadof talking about things, I put
all the papers on the desk and Idrew little diagrams on the
papers and I said, okay, here'syour house?
Here's your bank account.
Put a big dollar sign.
(34:24):
Here is this here is that now,do we want all these shuffled
like a deck of cards and just abig mess at the end?
No, we don't want that.
Okay.
How do we arrange this?
So that it's easy for anybody tohandle this when you're gone.
I let them do the work and theyunderstood it once it was
(34:45):
visual.
So by having the patients andnot just ending the meeting and
saying, look, you guys, aren'tgoing to get this.
Let's just not do anything.
I really worked to connect withthem in a visual way, which is
what they really understood.
And once they understood thatvisually everything worked out,
I think that goes witheverything.
For example, I learned veryearly in my marriage that the
(35:09):
dishwasher could be loadedseveral different ways.
It can be loaded from the front,from the back, from the top,
from the bottom.
And when my wife said to me, youknow what, you're not loading
the dishwasher right.
I could have said, well, whydon't you just load it next time
then, but that wouldn't do anygood for my marriage.
So I said, please tell me, I hadpatience.
(35:30):
Please tell me how you want tohave it loaded and why, and
maybe I can learn and make yourlife a little bit easier.
It's worked out.
Great.
Danu Poyner (35:40):
Yeah.
Is that kind of patientsomething that comes naturally
to you or something that you'veworked at?
Bob Kabacy (35:46):
No, no, it doesn't.
I don't think it comes naturallyto any human being because we
have emotions and emotionssometimes guide us in ways that
we shouldn't be guided and weneed to put our emotions in
check sometimes.
So taking that moment to thinkabout how important is this
object really?
Do I really want to engage?
(36:06):
Do I really want to have thefight?
And sometimes you do.
But sometimes you just letthings simmer a little bit and
let life occur.
Let your emotions calm down anduse a balance of emotions and
brain.
And I think you'll usually getto a better answer.
Danu Poyner (36:23):
I like that phrase, let life occur.
And if you do that, maybe thesolutions present themselves.
If you have a chance to calmdown, think about it a bit
differently.
I want to talk about the magic,Bob, because I'm struck by the
rules-based nature of theenvironment you're working in.
You said something at the startabout helping people by
sometimes getting them out oftheir routine.
(36:45):
At face value and law seem likepretty opposite kinds of things.
What can you tell me about that?
Bob Kabacy (36:51):
The law is very left brain, rule-based.
Magic seems very right brain andcreative based, and it is, but
of course, magic is alsorule-based.
We work with the rules ofphysics and the rules of
psychology.
So we do have a set of ruleswith magic.
The difference between law andmagic is while you mechanically
(37:12):
apply the rules and sometimesemotions are involved, with
magic, you present it at thestory or at the magic in a way
that manipulates the psychologyor the physical nature of what
you're doing, that gives anappearance of the impossibility.
I want to use the wordmanipulate because good
magicians will say they don'tlie.
(37:32):
They will let the audience makean assumption.
It's very important as amagician and me as a lawyer in
particular to not lie aboutanything.
But if I say, please select acard, you're assuming that if a
random card and from myperspective, it may not be a
random card.
I don't say please select arandom card unless I really mean
(37:56):
it.
So magic is yes, a right brainactivity in terms of its
creation and its creativity, butit's also a left brain activity
in terms of scripting andpresentation and rule based and
how to work with the rules.
I find that it's a great bridgebetween my right brain and left
(38:17):
brain to exercise what's goingon as well as a great training
tool.
Teaching tool.
It's fun.
I really enjoy letting peopleget lost in the moment of magic.
And if you've been to a goodmagic show and you allow
yourself to get lost in themoment, it's very entertaining
and it's not just about theeffects.
(38:40):
The effects are the effects.
It's really about thestorytelling that is behind the
effects because of the effect byitself.
Okay, great.
You could watch a star wars, Xwing blow up and it looks really
cool on screen, but it's thestory behind how that X wing got
there and how that eventoccurred.
And who's in the X wing thatreally matters.
(39:01):
Magic is a lot aboutstorytelling.
Danu Poyner (39:03):
It's so true.
I went to this online event theother week and they had a
magician doing a bit betweeneach speaker.
It was simple things he wasdoing, but he was drawing in the
story from everything withpresenters had said.
It really lifted the wholeevent.
So I have a lot of time forthis.
It's the magic something thatyou do on the side?
Is it something you bring intoyour practice?
Bob Kabacy (39:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's on the side.
Yes.
And not so much on the sidelately with the book and with my
practice and making sure that Istay married and have a good
family and everything.
So there's only 24 hours in theday, but I've pursued it as a
serious hobby.
Well, enough to have done stateshows, parlor shows, closeup
(39:46):
shows, busking table.
And understanding the psychologyof magic and frequently we'll
include it in my presentationson estate planning, similar to
your speaker.
Instead of a joke, I'll open upwith a magic trick or a story
and how it fits into the estateplanning.
For example, one of the effectsI use is a great effect.
(40:07):
It's a Rubik's cube that you mixup right on stage.
And you talk about how estateplanning can be really
complicated, but if you'reguided correctly, you tossed the
Rubik's cube in the air.
And as you catch it, you can sayit doesn't have to be
complicated.
And as you catch the mixed upRubik's cube, you can actually
show it solved, completely sawas if it solved in the air.
(40:30):
The trick is with this type ofspeaking.
I've got to pause for a littlebit, because if I go right into
my point, people are stillthinking about how the rubrics
off itself, as opposed tolistening to what was my real
point in the story.
Danu Poyner (40:47):
I don't think I've ever seen anyone apply these
things together.
It sounds like it must go overpretty well but what confidence
does it take to present likethat?
Bob Kabacy (40:56):
When you have to have a lot of confidence,
because it's twofold.
Number one, you've got to be amaster of your presentation.
So the concepts of estateplanning or whatever, I'm
speaking about the book orotherwise, the second thing
you've got to have confidence inthe magic effects.
I did a show actually for myfirm, which was about 70 people
(41:19):
at the time or 50, it was.
And it was a Christmas show.
This was right before a COVID.
And it was a 40 minute show, butI probably spent a year and a
half and about 150 hoursscripting and preparing for a 40
minute show because I wanted tomake sure that I had confidence
(41:41):
on stage, that things were goingto go well and everything was
going to be tied togethernicely.
The music was right, and it wasan enjoyable experience for the
audience.
So it's not just about gettingup and doing the tricks.
It needs to be done as apresentation.
Your confidence can get shakensometimes because I have been on
(42:01):
stage and have had an effectfail and they do occur
sometimes.
And the mark of a goodprofessional.
I learned this in the golfworld.
I got to walk behind aprofessional golfer for a
tournament one day.
And boy, he made many mistakeson the golf course, but it
(42:22):
wasn't the mistake.
It was how he got out of it.
That was just amazing.
So I've applied that to life andsay, look, we're human beings.
We're going to make mistakes.
Whether you're a magician onstage or whether you're working
in a restaurant and the ordergets screwed up, it's not the
mistake.
It's how you get out of it.
That really matters.
And You weren't to get out of itwith grace and with a little bit
(42:44):
like a cat, I meant to do that,or this was supposed to happen.
That's, what I've learned aboutthe confidence and the stage
presentations.
Danu Poyner (42:54):
Was there ever a world in which magic was more
than a serious hobby and it wassomething that would have been
your main gig.
Bob Kabacy (43:01):
Uh, no, I can't say it was, although I remember
several nights working all dayand then going out and working
at bars and entertaining folksat bars and stuff, and that's
called busking tables andwhatnot.
I've done that in Las Vegas acouple of times and had a great
experience, but it's notsomething that I wanted to make
(43:24):
a career out of because I didn'thave that same passion for magic
that someone like DavidCopperfield has, he lives and
breathes magic.
And his book, David Copperfieldthat recently came out is an
awesome example of howpassionate he is about.
The passion that I have isreally in the estate planning
(43:46):
world.
It's what I've built.
It's what I live.
It's what I breathe.
It's why I wrote this book.
If we follow our passions, wecan make the world a better
place, no matter what we'redoing.
If your passion is servingtables at a restaurant or your
passion is it is, do it the bestyou can and become a master at
it.
Danu Poyner (44:06):
Was there a moment when you had that realization,
that estate planning was yourpassion with that kind of level
of sudden clarity?
Or was it something that dawnedon you over a period of time?
Bob Kabacy (44:18):
Yeah, I put the data together.
I took a state planning and taxand law school, and those were
some of my easiest classes.
After I started working, estateplanning was one of the areas
that the firm wanted me to workin and I was just thoroughly
enjoying it.
I dove in headfirst and learnedas much as I could read as much
(44:38):
as I could, and really became a,I wouldn't say an expert, but
more knowledgeable than anaverage lawyer is in the estate
planning arena.
And really embraced it as, thisis what I want to do with my
life and have enjoyed it everymoment, even after almost 30
years of doing that.
(44:58):
I think the other thing that isa calling for me is I've been
fascinated with the concept ofdeath and the concept of loss
and the human reaction to it.
I really feel like part of mypurpose is helping guide people
through that because we don'thave those guides in school.
(45:18):
We don't have books out there.
There are psychologists andpsychiatrists that help people
through grief.
And there are some books thathelp people through grief and
how to handle grief.
It goes back to studies in 1969about the five stages of grief.
And now the brain mappingthought processes.
Those are all fascinating thingsto me, because if I can help add
(45:42):
information to that segment ofsociety, I can help people.
And if I help people that makesthe world a better place and I
want to leave the world a betterplace.
than when I came into it.
Danu Poyner (45:53):
Thank you.
I think that's a very powerfulway of thinking about it.
I guess then the book you'vewritten is a synthesis of what
you've learned from your ownexperience, as well as dealing
with all of these clients overthe years.
I'm curious, in what ways yousee that process of what happens
after death varying depending oncircumstance and in what ways
(46:14):
are the same for everyone.
Bob Kabacy (46:17):
Great question.
And we are on the forefront ofthe psychology of it.
I've been doing a lot of readingin that regard.
Back in 1969, a researcherindicated that there were these
stages of grief we all gothrough.
What we're learning anddiscovering today is that, yes,
those are feelings we may haveand emotions we have, but we all
(46:39):
are different and we allexperience it differently.
We're starting to learn why weexperience things so
differently.
And there are so many variables,it's a complicated formula,
almost like a DNA strand inthat, you got to look at the
relationship of the loved one,your own upbringing, your
emotional makeup, how much timeyou spent with them, how much
(47:02):
time you spend with themcurrently.
All of the things that go intoloss, and we all react
differently on different timeschedules.
And that's what sometimes causesdisputes.
I have seen cases where twosiblings will have a loss of a
parent and one will be donegrieving after a period of
months.
(47:22):
And the other is grieving twoyears later.
And the one that has donegrieving after months says to
the other one, I don't see whatthe big deal is.
Why can't you just get over it,they're gone.
That then creates or continues asibling rivalry.
That's just horrible.
What I'm trying to ascertain andwork out is a mechanism for
(47:44):
folks to work through theirgrieving, understand that it's
natural, do it in the naturalcourse, but also understand that
you can get stuck in theprocess.
There are a lot of people whoare stuck in the grieving
process, who are still depressedafter the loss of a loved one,
and just can't get out of andgrow from it, learn from it.
(48:06):
I feel terrible for them andthey should seek help.
Listen, I have no problemadmitting that I was struggling
with the passing of my motherand I sought professional help
because that's what they'rethere for.
We live in communities withexpertise.
For a reason, we rely on eachother for survival and to have a
better life.
So if we have those resourcesout there, we should use those
(48:29):
instead of trying to self-helpor take other drastic actions,
which we read about.
Danu Poyner (48:34):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
And it really interestingexample about the siblings,
really shows that variation, Ithink as well, this might be a
slightly in delicate question,but is there some difference in
how the process unfolds when anestate is smaller as to when
it's worth a lot of money andit's highly contested by the
family.
Bob Kabacy (48:54):
Great question.
The answer depends a lot on thenature of the heirs or the
survivors.
I have seen small estates, wheredisputes arise because.
So-and-so took someone's dollwhen they were younger and
they're not going to get awaywith it now.
And they are going to fight tothe death and spend the whole
(49:16):
estate on lawyers, just to spitethe other person.
In the super wealthy estates Ithink you add the emotional
aspect of money.
We have to remember money is atool, but people view money as a
measure of love, or they view itas a measure of security,
happiness.
We know that money doesn't buyhappiness.
(49:38):
Although some people say itmakes a good down payment on it,
it doesn't.
When you have larger estates inthose disputes arise, the
concepts and the disputes arethe same.
We just have the complicatingfactor of there's more to divvy
up.
There's more to fight about.
So It becomes a mechanicalprocess, but the actual emotions
(50:01):
behind the disputes are prettysimilar, whether it's a small
estate or a large estate I'm notsurprised by that conclusion
either because we're all humanbeings.
We have our emotions.
All our emotions are prettysimilar when you boil them all
down.
We all have bouts of greed andwe all have bouts of sadness.
(50:21):
We all have bouts of happinessand joy.
We all share these things.
It's just when we share them andhow we share them and how we
communicate about them with eachother, that can sometimes cause
disputes, especially when you'redealing with the loss event, and
the grieving process.
I love this idea of the brainhaving a remap and I've
(50:44):
experienced it.
Physically you're tired,mentally, you're tired.
And as a result, when you'redisputing with a sibling or
another heir, it can becomeoverwhelming and the negative
situation, a negativeexperience.
I try to help my estates getthrough that and make sure that
they don't have it similar tothe playground.
I wanna make sure that states gothrough smoothly.
Danu Poyner (51:06):
That's so interesting.
Thank You've been doing this fora long time.
Knowing what you know now what'sadvice you would give to young
bob
Bob Kabacy (51:13):
A couple of things.
One, I would tell young Bob tobe a little bit more patient.
I wasn't patient I've had tolearn that.
The second thing that I wouldprobably tell young Bob is, you
don't have to be an overachieverfor people to like you.
I grew up in an environmentwhere people would like you, if
you found massive success.
(51:35):
Tom cruise, great movie success,not everybody likes him.
And do they like him onlybecause of his success?
I don't know.
Cause I don't know him.
And I don't know the people whoare interacting with him, but I
think I would tell young Bob,people are going to like you for
who you are, as long as you justbe yourself, you don't have to
(51:57):
overachieve in order to try toget people to like you.
I am where I am today becauseyoung Bob probably wanted to
overachieve to get more peopleto like him.
Today I help run a law firm.
I've got this book, I stillswim.
I've got a good family.
I'm still overachieving today,but I'm coming to the
(52:18):
realization that people aregonna like me for who I am, if I
just be myself and if they don'tlike me, okay, I'll move away
from them.
Danu Poyner (52:28):
Yeah, it takes a certain level of life experience
to come to that.
Doesn't it.
Speaking of overachieving, Youmentioned the swimming.
you've been a nationally rankedswimmer in the 50 yard
freestyle.
Is that right?
Bob Kabacy (52:39):
Yeah.
It was a NAI division two.
So went to university of Pugetsound and I ended up getting a
national record my senior year,which was a very exciting event.
Danu Poyner (52:49):
What do you enjoy about swimming?
Bob Kabacy (52:51):
I think swimming for me is a little bit like
meditation or yoga for a lot ofpeople.
When I'm in the pool, swimming,doing it well, it takes a lot of
mechanical thought and it allowsme to be mindful.
And in the moment, how is myhand entering the.
Am I getting the right degree asI pull through the water, how
(53:13):
does the water feel?
Am I going fast enough?
How is my body feeling at themoment?
What that mindfulness does is itallows us as people to let the
subconscious process everythingelse that has been going on
throughout the day.
There was a recent thing innational geographic about
mindfulness.
What they're realizing is thatwe go through the day and we
(53:35):
have all this stuff andconscious thoughts.
Our subconscious can processthings in a way that our
conscious can't and by beingmindful through yoga meditation,
just mindfulness exercise,there's even an app out there
about that or swimming orwhatever you're doing.
We can actually become moreeffective in what we're doing.
(53:58):
And make better decisions andbecome less bogged down.
It's a little bit like a filter.
That's processing everything forus.
That's what, how oursubconscious acts.
If I'm able to processeverything at the end of the
day, or even in the morning, ifI do a morning swim, I just have
a better day, better evening.
My wife knows when I come home,she's like you're swimming
(54:19):
tonight, right?
Yep.
And she says, okay, you're donewith your workout.
Great to see the Bob.
I know again.
Danu Poyner (54:26):
That's a really interesting point bob, and I'm
struck several times in thisconversation, by the way you
described situations and beingpresent in that moment, like the
realization during your owngrieving process about how that
would be applicable.
And as you're saying with theswimming about how the hand is
moving through the water, Ithink that mindfulness is a
really way of making sense ofthat.
Bob Kabacy (54:49):
It's something that allows me to, while my body's
not at rest, my mind is at restbecause I'm focused on all of
the details to make my strokebetter.
Let's be honest.
I'm not going to go to theOlympics.
I'm not going to be a nationallyranked swimmer again, unless
it's masters or something, but Istill want to have that good
(55:10):
technique.
And I still want to be able to,I call it, get up on it
sometimes in the pool and reallyjust enjoy the moment because I
know a couple of things aregonna happen.
Number one, I'll become a betterswimmer.
Technically number two, I'll letmy subconscious filter out all
the garbage that occurred duringthe day.
(55:31):
And number three, doesn't likethat endorphin rush at the end
when your workouts over.
Danu Poyner (55:37):
Absolutely.
It sounds like you like to getup on it in everything that you
do in life.
What are you focusing on at themoment?
Bob Kabacy (55:45):
I think getting this book out is really important to
me and what I've learned aboutpublishing is.
You have books that you have towork to get them out.
And sometimes they fail and justdie on the vine.
Sometimes they get their ownlife and they just create their
own reputation.
And they just take off, I'mtrying to get this book to have
(56:07):
its own life.
And the purpose for that is I'vegot a second one ready to go for
editing, which expands andbrings more of during life
process instead of that deathprocess into the fold in a
similar vein.
I really want to get going onthat, but my publisher says,
let's get this one going first.
(56:29):
And then we'll work on gettingthe second one going.
I've got to promote that firstone.
At the same time, I've got tokeep my law practice going and,
I want to make sure.
Child is doing what he supposedto be doing.
And my wife is happy.
Danu Poyner (56:42):
A lot of plates to keep spinning.
We'll put a link to the book inthe show notes, of course.
But where would you suggest isthe best place for people to go
have a look at it?
Bob Kabacy (56:50):
Sure.
You can go to Robert dot com.
That's a good summary of thebook it's available on beyond
words, who's the publisher.
You can also pick it up at theregular sources like Amazon
Barnes and Nobles.
There's several links on theRobert qbc.com that talk about
it in detail so that you can seehow it is.
Danu Poyner (57:10):
Wonderful.
One question I always askeveryone who comes on the
podcast, is you could giftsomeone a life-changing learning
experience, what would it be andwhy?
Bob Kabacy (57:22):
This is a great question.
Maybe this is skewed because ofthe profession on me and if I
could do so in a safeenvironment, I think I would
want somebody to have, Iwouldn't want to give it to
them, but I would want somebodyto have a near death experience
and the reason I would want themto have that and come out of it.
(57:45):
Cause I don't want them to die,but I'd want them to come out of
it because the people who I'vemet, who have had near death
experiences, see the world in avery unique, enlightened way
that the rest of us who don'tunderstand what death really is
feel.
They just enjoy every moment, alittle bit more.
(58:08):
They appreciate things a littlebit more.
And the minutia of the daybothers them a little bit last.
If you are diagnosed with cancerand you realize that you may not
make it, and then you do makeit, you become a little bit
different person.
You have an experience thatsays, wow, I dodged a bullet on
(58:31):
that one.
I think you see the world alittle bit differently.
I think a little bit better.
I would never wish death onsomebody.
I would never wish theexperience or pain or whatever
they're going through.
But if I could somehow magicallyimplant that feeling of seeing
the world a little bit betterwithout your death experience,
(58:52):
that's what I'd want to do.
Danu Poyner (58:53):
Well, that is not the answer I expected, but it's
maybe the best answer you couldhave given, I think.
I wonder if people.
Who have had that experience,whether sometimes other people
find them a bit annoying after awhile because they bring such
positivity.
It puts a pressure on the peoplearound them to be more positive
than they want to be.
Bob Kabacy (59:12):
It could be, but it's not necessarily positive.
The people I've interacted withthe lead normal lives.
They just, they see it a littlebit differently.
It's very subtle, but they seeit a little bit differently
because they know we're not likecars.
Your car runs out of oil.
You still can drive it for alittle bit.
You get a flat tire, you cantell it or whatever.
Man.
(59:33):
If we have an artery that popsout, we're gone, we have a
vessel in our brain that strokesout we're gone.
So we're very fragile.
And I think that those who havehad the experience recognize the
fragileness of life andunderstand that the big picture
there's more to it than just theminutiae.
(59:55):
They pay attention to theminutia, but they're just a
little bit calmer.
It seems like.
Danu Poyner (01:00:00):
Yeah.
yeah, it's been a great pleasuretalking to you today.
I really have enjoyed ourconversation.
It's gone to some places that Ididn't expect at all, and I
really have enjoyed what yousaid about letting life occur
and getting people out of theirroutine.
It's such a love of life thatcomes through from listening to
you.
I think that more than manypeople, you are well positioned
(01:00:21):
to have that approach and bethat guide for people through
the difficult process ofplanning for what happens death.
I want to thank you very muchfor that.
Bob Kabacy (01:00:31):
I want to thank you for having me on the program
today.
I often have been asked if youcould do anything what would you
do?
And I often will respond I wouldwant to be a rock star.
And they say, why?
And I say, well, number one, notthe way you're thinking, because
I have no musical talent.
But if you think about it, arock star and a rock
(01:00:51):
performance.
Has the ability to suspendpeople's normal life for a
couple hours and really bringenjoyment to them at a grand
scale, 50,000 people at a timeor more, they help make the
world a better place at a grandscale.
And I'm trying to do it onefamily at a time, one book at a
(01:01:13):
time.
And maybe at some point I get tobe like one of the other authors
that can command a theater of acouple thousand people.
And, we'll get there.
Maybe not.
If I can only change one life ata time, I've done my job.
I've left the world a betterplace.
That's what I want.
Danu Poyner (01:01:28):
Thank you.
That was a great place to leaveit.
I hope people do check out thebook as well, because it is
genuinely, one of the mostinteresting things I've seen.
There are things out there thatare very mechanical for
preparing, but I think this is avery human book and it's
designed in a very human way.
please do go check it out
Bob Kabacy (01:01:47):
Thank you very much.
Whether it's a small estate or a large estate, the
(00:02):
actual emotions behind thedisputes are pretty similar.
I have seen small estates wheredisputes arise because so-and-so
took someone's doll when theywere younger and they're not
going to get away with it now,and they are going to fight to
the death and spend the wholeestate on lawyers, just to spite
(00:23):
the other person.
In the super wealthy estates youadd the emotional aspect of
money.
There's more to fight about.
Danu Poyner (00:34):
You're listening to the Still Curious Podcast with
me, Danu Poyner.
My guest today is Robert Kabacywho has been a lawyer in the
estate planning and wealthtransfer industries for more
than 25 years.
Robert has recently written abook called About Me:
Information You Will Need WhenI've Passed, which is a result
of the passing of his mother andexperiencing firsthand the
(00:55):
difficulty of losing a loved onewhile navigating the mechanics
that go with it.
Bob Kabacy (01:00):
Here I am an estate planner allegedly prepared for
death, but just experiencingthis brain fog with the loss of
a loved one.
if I'm going through this, howare other people handling it?
Danu Poyner (01:11):
Bob is also a magician as a serious hobby.
And although I was half jokingwhen I asked him whether he ever
combines magic and estateplanning, I'm glad I did.
Bob Kabacy (01:20):
Magic is a lot about storytelling.
we'll include it inpresentations on estate
planning, you talk about howestate planning can be really
complicated, you tossed theRubik's cube in the air.
And as you catch it, you can saybut if you're guided correctly,
it doesn't have to becomplicated.
And as you catch the mixed upRubik's cube, you show it
completely saw as if it solvedin the air.
Danu Poyner (01:43):
Although today's episode is a powerful discussion
about the challenging subject ofnavigating the dynamics of death
and grief, it's alsosurprisingly fun and never dull.
We cover a lot of ground fromhow dealing with death head-on
can give us a sense of control,telling a story about picking
berries to explain the mechanicsof probate, how the brain has to
(02:04):
remap itself when dealing withloss and the surprising moments
that can arise when people workthrough the book he has created.
Bob Kabacy (02:11):
Even after 25 years of marriage, we learned things
about each other and she wouldwrite things down.
I'm like, I didn't know youwanted that.
Danu Poyner (02:18):
We also learn about how Bob was a peacekeeper on the
school playground, how swimmingis good for mindfulness and why
patience matters in law as wellas in marriage.
And Bob's answer to my usualquestion about gifting, a
life-changing learningexperience is the most
unexpected I've had from any ofmy guests so far.
Throughout the wholeconversation, what strikes me
(02:39):
most is Bob's abiding passionand care for a subject most of
us would prefer not to thinkabout.
Bob Kabacy (02:45):
The concept of death and loss and the human reaction
to it.
I really feel like part of mypurpose is helping guide people
through that because we don'thave those guides in school.
This is what I want to do withmy life And have enjoyed it
every moment, even after almost30 years of doing that.
Danu Poyner (03:05):
I was grateful to spend some time listening to
Bob's practical wisdom.
I hope you will be too.
It's Robert Kabacy coming upafter the music on today's
episode of the Still CuriousPodcast.
Well, hi Bob.
Welcome to the podcast.
Bob Kabacy (03:18):
Thanks for having me here.
I'm doing great today.
It's a delight to be here.
Danu Poyner (03:22):
So you've been a lawyer in the estate planning
and wealth transfer industriesfor more than 25 years.
And you're the author of thebook,"About Me: Information you
will need when I've passed",you've also been a competitive
swimmer and you practice stageand parlor magic.
That's a fascinating mix.
What would you say is the mostimportant thing for someone to
understand about what you do?
Bob Kabacy (03:43):
Well, I think there's a couple of things.
Number one, I really want tohelp people.
Whether it's in a technicalmanner, my legal profession or
through the book, or eventhrough a grieving process.
And then in an, entertainmentmanner, with the magic it's
helping suspend their belief fora few minutes in a very tough
world and just experience thingslike children experience,
(04:06):
freshly fallen snow for thefirst time.
Just getting them out of theirroutine and stuff.
The second thing in why I'vedone so much is I want to make
sure that I get a full lifeunder my belt before it's my
time to go.
Cause we only get one turnaround at this and I want to do
the best I can and experiencethe most I can while helping the
most people that I can andduring the process.
Danu Poyner (04:28):
Thank you.
What a great answer.
We'll come to your book in alittle while, cause I think it's
really interesting and it'sunlike anything I've seen before
but before we do that, I'd liketo ask you a bit about estate
planning.
It's a topic we don't thinkabout much, even though all of
us will need to engage with itat some point.
So the first thing I wanted toask you is as a lawyer in estate
planning and wealth transfer,what are some of the main
(04:51):
difficulties you find yourclients have?
Bob Kabacy (04:53):
I think the number one difficulty by far as
procrastination.
Estate planning deals with deathand nobody wants to recognize
that they will pass one day.
I think it's a survival instinctand our ego telling us that we
won't pass.
The statistics tend to show thatseven out of 10 people don't
have any form of estateplanning, which is really
surprising given that there'staxes involved, sometimes
(05:16):
probate court.
So definitely procrastination.
Analysis paralysis is anotherone.
They want to collect all thedata and become an expert to
make the right decision.
And I understand that, butestate planning is a field that
requires us to consider our ownmortality and apply a set of
technical rules to it.
So the analysis paralysis canreally inhibit the planning
(05:39):
process.
One other thing that issometimes a challenge for the
clients is the cost of estateplanning.
Everybody wants to get a greatdeal and nobody wants to pay
more than they need to.
But estate planning's a fieldwhere you get what you pay for.
In You wouldn't go to a generalsurgeon in order to have open
(06:00):
heart surgery.
You'd want to go through acardiac surgeon.
Choosing an expert who isfamiliar with the rules.
You'll be able to really get thebest result.
Trying to do it yourself.
Let me just comment about thatfor one moment.
Estate planning is not likehanging a shower curtain because
if I make a mistake and it fallsdown, I get embarrassed, but I
(06:22):
would not try to change thebrakes on my car, because if I
do, bad things could happen ifthey fail.
I could hurt myself or others.
Estate planning, you can do alot of damage without knowing
that you're doing damage.
So it's a little bit more likechanging the brakes on a car,
then hanging in the shower.
Danu Poyner (06:39):
It's such an interesting topic because as you
say, most of us procrastinateand don't want to think about
it.
If we do, then we don't knowwhere to start or we feel
overwhelmed.
And it's also high-impact if weget it wrong.
Death and grief are not topicswe're used to talking about in
general.
We don't learn about them inschool specifically.
And they're uncomfortable.
(06:59):
Do you find that there's powerin addressing those head-on?
Bob Kabacy (07:03):
Absolutely.
Death is a very uncomfortablesubject.
What I've learned over time isthat.
We as human beings really shareat least two things in common.
Number one, we're born.
And number two, we die.
Being born is really a creationwhere death is a loss and we all
(07:24):
fear loss.
We wouldn't want to lose ourcell phone.
A lot of us really fear thatprobably more than death in
these days.
But death is a loss of a lovedone.
We don't talk about it inschool.
We tend to fear it and I thinkwe do so because birth is a
celebration and loss as amorning.
(07:44):
And in either case our brainshave to remap.
And when they remap, they do soeither in a celabratory fashion,
like when the child is born orin a fashion to overcome a loss.
We don't like dealing withremapping of the brain when
there's grief involved.
We're human beings.
It is a very uncomfortabletopic.
(08:06):
By addressing it head-on I feelthat we can look at it in a way
that allows us to just acceptit.
It's going to happen.
There's no doubt about that.
I think one tool for addressingit.
And I've heard this in a coupleof, sociology podcasts is that
instead of addressing in the, Iam going to die, we address it
(08:30):
in the, we are going to die, orit will happen to all of us
someday.
By recognizing that in that way,it's a little bit softer.
It becomes a little lessuncomfortable because we're part
of a bigger group.
Danu Poyner (08:42):
How does it conversation with a client about
estate planning usually start?
Bob Kabacy (08:47):
Well, it usually starts with the client saying,
oh, I don't need that.
I'm not going to die anytimesoon.
And I say, that's great, buttell me when you are going to
die.
Well, it's not any time soon.
It was very unpredictable andthere's a couple of professions
that see more death than me,like an emergency room doctor,
or a clergy person.
(09:08):
But in terms of seeing death, Ijust left a meeting here today.
The woman was telling me about agood friend who is 50 with seven
kids ranging from, 12 years oldto 24 who just had cardiac
arrest and died just right away.
We don't know when it's going tohappen to us.
I think we go back to somethingone of the boys Scouts said long
(09:31):
ago, which is be prepared.
And that's what estate planningis all about is getting
prepared, being prepared,knowing that it's coming and not
knowing when it's coming, it'sbetter to be prepared than not
because the consequences of notbeing prepared, can include
greater costs, greateruncertainty, a longer time
period for administration.
Danu Poyner (09:53):
Definitely.
You're often encountering peopleat a difficult time.
I imagine how do you balance themechanical and the
administrative side of thingswith that human and emotional
side?
Bob Kabacy (10:06):
That is a challenge, and there are two different
parts, as you've pointed out,the mechanical side of things is
very rule-based.
We know what a will does.
We know what a trust does.
We know what the tax rules are.
That's all mechanics.
The emotional side of things isdifferent for everybody.
We all grieve in different ways.
We all plan in different way.
(10:28):
So I have to be very attune andlisten to what's important to
them.
And if I don't do that and I mixthe mechanical with the
emotional, too much, I could becriticized for basically doing
my job, but people want toseparate the mechanical from the
emotional.
They want to tell their storyand solve their issue in their
(10:50):
immediate need or insecurity.
And then how it's done is themechanical side of things.
They're less concerned with, howa Q-tip election is made or what
the language of the technicalaspects of the trust or will is,
and more concerned about,where's my stuff going, and
who's going to take care ofthings and how are people going
(11:10):
to get into my phone and handleall my accounts and automatic
bill pays.
Those are things that are theemotional tugs on us.
For a lot of us, we feel guiltyfor not being prepared.
I suppose there are some peopleout there who just don't care
and say, I'm going to be deadand it doesn't matter to me.
Danu Poyner (11:27):
So is there sometimes emotional comfort to
be had in the mechanical sideand they're having a plan and a
process?
Bob Kabacy (11:35):
Well, I think so in the reason is because when I
guide a client through theprocess, we focus on the
mechanical and help themunderstand what the options are.
And by doing that, we're able toaddress death in a very third
person manner, which is here'show a plan operates.
And yes, we're talking aboutyour death and yes, that will
(11:58):
occur someday.
It's not happening today.
But if it does happen, here arethe steps that our people are
going to have to go through andthe rules, how we save the taxes
and what we do to make sure thatthe state is properly
administered.
So, absolutely I think themechanical does help us address
the death topic.
(12:18):
But again, I'll tell you sevenout of 10 people just ignore it
all together and say, not goingto happen today.
I feel great.
I don't need a will.
And then next thing you know,they pass away without a will
and that's where things canstart going differently than you
would expect.
Danu Poyner (12:36):
This is probably a good opportunity to talk about
your book then, which is calledAbout Me Information You Will
Need When I've Passed.
First of all, what sets you onthe path of writing a book and
what did you want to achieve?
Bob Kabacy (12:49):
Yeah, this is a interesting story 20 years ago.
Actually a little bit longerthan that, my mother approached
me and said that she wanted toget her estate plan done because
she had just been diagnosed withcancer and I've been doing
estate planning for awhile.
So I said, I'd be glad to do it.
Our ethical rules authorizethat.
I started working through theestate stuff and I realized that
(13:09):
there was a whole bunch ofpractical stuff that even though
I was close with my mother, Ijust didn't know about certain
things like who her doctor wasor what medication she was on or
what she wanted at a funeral.
And we're really facing deathhead on because she says, look,
I've got cancer.
It's not going to be cured.
And I am going to pass andyou're going to be the one
(13:30):
administering.
So I got very insecure aboutthat.
Knowing that the matriarch of myfamily was no longer going to be
here and really startedquestioning her and working with
her on a process to write thingsdown and ask her questions about
those practical non-legal thingsas a companion to the estate
(13:51):
plan that I was writing.
What I didn't realize though,was the profound impact that
that little three ring binderwould have on me after she
passed.
She got worse as would beexpected with cancer.
And I would be visiting herdaily until the very end.
But every day I would still gointo work before I'd come visit
(14:13):
her.
I was just waiting for the call.
And one day I got the call andrushed over there and she had
expired and it was verydifficult, experiencing it
firsthand.
That's when I really became anestate planner because I had
lived through a loss like that.
What I didn't realize waspulling out that three ring
(14:33):
binder in my estate plan withall the questions that I had
asked her really gave me a senseof control in an uncontrolled
environment.
All the information I needed wasright at my fingertips.
I was able to work throughthings in an organized fashion.
I was able to answer questionswhen asked by people I was
working with to administer theestate and answering the
(14:56):
questions quickly.
It was really comforting tohave, and here I am an estate
planner allegedly prepared fordeath, but just experiencing
this brain fog with the loss ofa loved one.
Having that book really, reallyhelped me a lot.
I thought if I'm going throughthis, how are other people
(15:16):
handling it?
That was why I wrote this book.
Danu Poyner (15:18):
As an estate planning lawyers, tempting to
say at face value that yourexperience would have put you in
a better position than most tohandle that situation and work
through that grief.
But what was that like?
Bob Kabacy (15:31):
It was very, very human.
I will try to explain it morethe best I can.
I had experienced grief throughmy client's eyes many, many
times before that, but when it'spersonal and you have thick
memories and you have a lot ofpersonal interaction with the
individual who is no longerthere forever.
(15:53):
They're gone forever.
You really take note of that andit's emotionally overwhelming
and I'm not saying my book is amagic pill that solves the grief
issue, but it's something thatis there to assist.
And surprisingly, it gave me asense of control.
That was one thing that stoodout.
Second thing that stood out isit gave me the information and
(16:16):
the memories.
I still have that today.
Uh, So it's been a very goodtool for me, even 20 years later
to come to grips with the lossof a loved one.
Danu Poyner (16:27):
You mentioned brain fog, which I thought was an
interesting term.
I wonder if you can describewhat the experience of that is
like a little more.
Bob Kabacy (16:36):
Yeah, sure.
Throughout the day, I knowexactly what to do.
I'm trained as an estateplanning lawyer, I've watched
clients experience grief.
I've experienced grief throughthe loss of a pet previously,
and I understand that you cryand you feel bad and then life
goes on, but I had neverexperienced it quite this way.
(16:59):
And despite knowing all therules and despite knowing what
needed to be done, the brain fogset in, and I was a little bit,
frankly, confused and notwanting to deal with it and a
little bit depressed and goingthrough all those stages of
emotions and just understandingthat it was normal.
And frankly, wanting to take inas much as I could so that I
(17:23):
could experience it as well,because if I experienced it,
knowing that all my clientsexperience it, I could be very
much more empathetic with themthrough the process.
Danu Poyner (17:33):
It sounds like even in that difficult moment, there
was a part of you registeredthat this was an important thing
for you to take in theexperience for your role.
Bob Kabacy (17:43):
Yes.
Loss is part of life.
It just, it is.
We lose objects.
We lose family members.
We lose spouses, we losechildren, we lose things.
It's a part of living.
I wanted to feel what my clientswere feeling and personally
experience it, but I'll tell youit wasn't a choice.
I recognized it for what it wasand said, wow, this is really
(18:07):
what they're going through.
How can I help them ease thepain, ease the burden, ease the
information overload and maketheir lives a little bit easier
in the time when it's neededmost.
It's confused.
You kinda lose sense of time.
You don't care as much.
I'm not a psychologist.
I have a psychology degree, butI'm not a psychologist, but I
(18:29):
just felt like my brain washaving to rewire itself.
And during that remapping, I wastired a lot.
And it just took an immenseamount of energy to get through
that.
Danu Poyner (18:39):
there's something reassuringly tangible about a
three ring binder in that kindof situation I imagine is that
one of the reasons why youdecided that a book was the
right medium for this, asopposed to a document on a
computer?
Bob Kabacy (18:54):
Yeah.
It was.
And a couple of reasons.
One, remember I'm putting thethree ring binder together 20
years ago and 20 years ago, weweren't living in the same world
we're living in.
Having the three ring binder ora book is something tangible
that you hold on to.
The other reason that I wantedto do a book is because.
(19:15):
It's easy and it's accessible.
You open the book up, you writein it and you put it on your
shelf and somebody can take itas a tangible representation of
you as opposed to an electronicscreen, which frankly, we're all
afraid that we'll hit the deletebutton accidentally, or a
electromagnetic pulse will wipeout our data or we'll lose the
(19:39):
passwords and not be able to getin to the system.
So having an electronic we'vestayed away from that for two
reasons.
One, there's a lot of personalinformation in the book, and I
don't think that we want thatavailable on the computer with
all the hacking today and on theweb with all the hacking, uh,
Number two.
(20:00):
If it's on the computer orsomebody has to be able to go
get on the computer, figure outthe password, figuring out where
to go, figure out how to openit.
It's too hard.
People will ignore it.
Whereas if you have a bookthat's on the shelf that says
about me, I'm going to go rightto that book, open it up.
And if it's all about theperson, what a gift.
Danu Poyner (20:20):
That's a really nice way to think about it.
I've gone through the book and Iwas surprised by how practical
it is, and also just thephysical size of it.
It left me with the impressionthere's a lot of thought that's
gone into how it will be used inpractice.
And you were alluding to that.
I think walking into the roomand finding it.
Can you tell me a bit about thatthought that's gone into it?
Bob Kabacy (20:42):
Sure.
So as a lawyer, of course Iwrote originally and sentences
that were probably 150 wordslong with multi-syllable words.
My editor said, no, no, no, thisis not going to work.
It might work for other lawyers,but it doesn't work for
everybody else.
So, edit, edit, edit, edit,edit, edit, edit, edit all
(21:04):
during COVID had it, had it, hadit, had it.
Yes.
I was so tired of editing andsimplifying and working with the
editor.
Trying to bring it to a pointthat was understandable and
tangible.
And that's one of the thingsthat I've actually been praised
for at the end was that it'seasy to read.
It's easy to follow.
It's big print, which I insistedupon because so many of my
(21:27):
clients can't read 11 or 12point type.
They need 14 or 16 point type tojust get through something.
So we wanted to make it simpleand easy because if it's not
simple and easy people, aren'tgoing to do it.
So a lot of editing, a lot ofthought went into it.
I wanted to make sure that whenyou open the book, it's a
(21:48):
special cover design that itstays open by itself.
And I also, because of thetitle, worked with the publisher
and said, this book should nothave my name on the cover.
It's one of the only books wherethe author's name is not on the
cover.
In fact, I've had troublefinding another one, but it's
(22:08):
not about me.
It's about the person who ownsthe books.
All that thought and thegraphics and the colors and the
paper, even the paper is aspecial paper heavy that doesn't
bleed through.
And it doesn't smear ink.
All of that was thought through.
And fortunately during COVID, wehad a lot of time.
So a lot of care went into thisbook.
(22:29):
Countless hours.
Danu Poyner (22:30):
And that's, I think a better word, a lot of care,
rather than a lot of thought orboth really, but I think the
care is important.
Can you tell me a little bitabout people will find in the
book and how it works?
Bob Kabacy (22:41):
Sure.
There's three main sections inthe book.
The first section is acustomizable fill out section
that asks you easy questionsabout you and all the practical
non-legal staff.
Again, that's a good companionwith an estate plan.
Like how do you get into yourphone?
How do you shut off bill pays?
What bill pays do you have?
(23:01):
What are your passwords?
Who's your doctor?
What do you want at yourfuneral?
Who do you not want to come toyour funeral and all the
practical stuff that is aboutyou?
And we've been prettycomprehensive all the way down
to pets and everything else.
Second part of the book, whichis different and there's nothing
out there like it.
Our chapters on how toadminister an estate.
(23:24):
What is probate?
What taxes are involved, how tohandle grief?
What if a dispute arise?
Very easy to read chapters andI'll tell ya.
That was another thing that wassurprising to me when my mother
had passed was during the dayyou're busy making phone calls,
waiting for return calls,filling out paperwork, doing
things, but six o'clock comesaround and the world shuts down
(23:48):
and then you're alone and you'resitting there and you're like,
okay, what do I do now?
So having these chapters reallygive you a continuation of that
sense of control, because youcan read through them again and
again, and then plan the nextday and figure out what you're
doing the next day.
And it helps you in that offtime during the night, the third
(24:08):
part of the book is about,resources like websites,
telephone numbers, and, otherhelpful information with
glossary about terms.
So if you are visiting with yourestate planning lawyer, and they
use words, you're not familiarwith, you can look them up in
the glossary.
Then there's a whole number ofpages in the back that are just
free flow thinking.
(24:29):
If you want to write a letter toyour kids, or you want to remind
somebody of something oranything you want to talk about,
there's blank pages that letsyou speak your mind and tell
people what was really importantto you.
Danu Poyner (24:42):
Do you find from your experience of how people
are using the book that it'ssomething very personal that
someone would fill out bythemselves in a quiet moment, or
is it an occasion to get thefamily together and discuss it?
I'm really curious about howpeople are using this.
Bob Kabacy (24:58):
That's a great question.
And in fact, I've talked to thepublisher about that exact
question and we have it sold asone book.
The idea was that somebody wouldfill it out.
But what I've experienced isthat even with myself and my
spouse, we each filled one outtogether.
And even after 25 years ofmarriage, we learned things
(25:19):
about each other and she wouldwrite things down.
I'm like, I didn't know youwanted that.
We had different answers fordifferent things.
And then for some families, theysit down with parents and
children or parents, children,and grandchildren, and they go
through it together and theyfill it out together.
And then they put it on theshelf of the estate planning
documents.
So I've talked to the publisherabout a spousal set, as well as
(25:42):
a family set that can fill outthese things together as a group
or as a couple, instead of justas an individual, I think doing
it together, even if you justhave one book is.
Helpful because it does twothings.
One, it gets you disciplined toactually fill it out because
look, let's be honest.
This book is a good book.
(26:02):
The chapters are very helpful,but the fill out section, isn't
going to be valuable unless youactually fill it out.
So you have to have thediscipline to do it.
It doesn't take long, but youhave to sit down.
And if you find a partner to sitdown with and say, Hey, I'm
going to do this thing veryimportant.
You can crochet or knit and Ijust need half an hour to fill
this out.
(26:23):
Get it done.
That's what I would suggest.
But yes, having other peoplethere to help you is good, but
make sure they're trusted.
You wouldn't want to do it with,exposing your passwords or
something to somebody you don'ttrust or just doing it at a
Starbucks or on camera.
Danu Poyner (26:39):
Coming back to what you said at the start about
procrastination and how most ofus avoid this, do you find that
the book helps get past that?
Or is the procrastination stillan issue?
Bob Kabacy (26:50):
Procrastination will always be an issue, I think with
human beings, because if you cando it tomorrow, generally, we
want to do it tomorrow andtomorrow, of course never comes.
So there's actually two hurdleswith this book.
The first hurdle is actuallypurchasing it and I've had lots
of people say, oh yeah, I'mgoing to get it.
I just forgot.
It's because they just don'twant to acknowledge death or
(27:12):
deal with this situation.
The second is actually fillingit out.
I worked with the publisher onseveral mechanisms to try to
overcome procrastination.
The bottom line is there's justreally no easy answer.
It's a little bit like workingout.
I get home at the end of the dayand I'm tired and I look at the
(27:32):
swimming pool and I'm like, do Ireally want to get in?
It's raining.
I have a thousand excuses as towhy not to go work out that day.
We can make up a thousandexcuses as to why not to do
this, but there's one goodreason why to do it.
If something happens to you,it's a great gift for those
loved ones you leave behindbecause without it, their job
(27:54):
will be harder.
Danu Poyner (27:56):
Thank you for explaining that.
On the technical side, youmentioned a term before probate.
One of the things that I alwaysask people on the podcast is to
explain something about theirpractice as if to a 10 year old.
And hopefully in this case, a 10year old, who won't need to know
about probate for a good while,but I wonder if you could do
that.
Bob Kabacy (28:15):
Sure.
Sure.
I usually like drawing analogiesand telling stories because
people can relate to that.
Oftentimes I'll ask my clients,if they ever have gone out and
picked blackberries orstrawberries or something, and
most people have picked somesort of Berry.
And I say, well, what do youtake with you when you go pick
berries?
And I get a lot to differentanswers, but the general answer
(28:36):
is a bucket.
I say, okay, let's imagine thata bucket is a trust and the
berries are your assets.
So each Blackberry represents anasset, like a house or a bank
account or something like that.
When you pick that Blackberry oracquire the.
You have a choice of putting itin your hand, owning it in your
(28:57):
own name or putting it in thebucket, owning it in the name of
the trust.
If you put the Blackberry inyour hand or in the bucket, you
can eat them.
You can trade them for otherberries.
You can give them away.
You have full control over theberries, but the difference is
at death with the berries inyour hand, rigor, mortis sets in
(29:18):
crushing those berries, creatinga mess.
In that situation, we have amess with the assets.
We have to go to court to cleanit up.
And that's what probate is allabout, is to take the assets
that are in someone's individualname and give someone legal
authority over those assets sothey can transfer them to those
(29:39):
who are living, the heirs,whether they're expressed in the
will or not.
Whereas the blackberries in thebucket, we can just simply set
the bucket down, the trust, andwe can name a successor trustee
who can immediately distributethose blackberries consistent
with our instructions withouthaving to go to court.
When I give that analogy, a lotof times clients say, well, I
(30:00):
don't want blackberries in myhand.
I want them in the bucketbecause I don't want to go to
court.
It's a long process.
It's a public process and courtscharge money lawyers, charge
money, and it can be fairlyexpensive, depending on the
circumstances.
Danu Poyner (30:15):
What a great explanation.
That's gonna stick in my mindfor sure.
I've been very struck by the waythat you have explained things
so far with various analogies.
I think that's always the markof a good teacher.
But I want to zoom out a littlebit and talk about your own
personal journey.
You have this facility forexplaining complex things in a
(30:37):
simple way.
And estate planning is not afield that everyone would
necessarily have as their plana.
Did you have a plan, a.
Bob Kabacy (30:45):
I did.
Since I was a kid, I wanted tobe a policeman.
When I grew up, you were apoliceman doctor, fireman, all
the traditional roles, and Iwanted to be the policeman cause
the policemen helped people,they followed a set of rules
that kept order.
And over time, I kind ofrealized that maybe being on the
frontline wasn't for me in thatregard, but I still wanted to
(31:08):
help people and follow the rulesand support the system.
So through a series of decisionsand stuff, I decided to go into
private practice.
But I can tell you that being alawyer is what I've wanted to do
since I was about, well, after Iwanted to be a policeman, I
thought, nah, I'm not going tobe a doctor.
Hey, being a lawyer can reallyhelp.
(31:29):
And I did, even on theplayground helped people,
mediate little playgrounddisputes and stuff, but I always
wanted people to get along andwork together and have a good
result as opposed to trying todo battle.
I can remember that there weretwo kids and it was a kickball
game.
And one of the kids didsomething or said something.
(31:52):
I don't even remember what itwas.
And the other kid just wasreally upset about it to the
point that the circle startedforming.
You could hear it, thebackground, that fight flight
fight chant.
And I pulled one of them asideand I said, Hey, what are you
doing?
Let's think about this.
I understand something was said,but let's think about what's
going to happen here.
(32:12):
I don't care.
I don't care.
And I said, whoa, wait a minute,wait a minute, come over here.
Listen to me.
You're going to get kicked outof school.
This is going to happen.
The results of this are going tobe bad.
I like you.
I want you to be here and.
He settled down and I don'tknow, I probably wasn't
listening to me, but enough timehad passed that it became less
of a emotional issue for him andmore of a do I really want to do
(32:36):
this?
And they ended up walking away.
I think everybody else wasdisappointed.
Danu Poyner (32:40):
That is a win on the playground, I think.
That's not something you seevery often.
Normally you see the fight.
I've heard you say in otherplaces that one of the most
important qualities for a lawyerto have is patience.
I'd love to hear you talk a bitmore
danu_poyner-2022-5-6__10- (32:53):
about
Danu Poyner (32:54):
that.
Bob Kabacy (32:54):
so patience has not always come easy and it doesn't
always come easy for a lot ofpeople, but being a lawyer,
having patience sometimes servesme better than not.
Looking at it, what is patience?
Patience is really, I think askill that's developed from
listening, analyzing, thinkingabout letting time pass and
(33:19):
trying to ascertain what is thebest solution for the issues
that are presented.
I think by having patience weusually get to the right answer.
I also think by having patientswe're able to solve difficult
problems and communicate better.
I'll give you a direct example.
I had a client meeting recentlyand clients were trying to
(33:42):
understand how an estate planworked and no matter what
analogies I used or how I wasexplaining it, I just wasn't
getting across.
And they were getting a littlebit frustrated and I was getting
frustrated, but I said tomyself, I've got to have
patience with these folks.
I'm here as their selectedexpert to guide them through
this difficult situation.
(34:04):
I've got to find a way toconnect with them on a level
that they can understand.
Finally, what I did is insteadof talking about things, I put
all the papers on the desk and Idrew little diagrams on the
papers and I said, okay, here'syour house?
Here's your bank account.
Put a big dollar sign.
(34:24):
Here is this here is that now,do we want all these shuffled
like a deck of cards and just abig mess at the end?
No, we don't want that.
Okay.
How do we arrange this?
So that it's easy for anybody tohandle this when you're gone.
I let them do the work and theyunderstood it once it was
(34:45):
visual.
So by having the patients andnot just ending the meeting and
saying, look, you guys, aren'tgoing to get this.
Let's just not do anything.
I really worked to connect withthem in a visual way, which is
what they really understood.
And once they understood thatvisually everything worked out,
I think that goes witheverything.
For example, I learned veryearly in my marriage that the
(35:09):
dishwasher could be loadedseveral different ways.
It can be loaded from the front,from the back, from the top,
from the bottom.
And when my wife said to me, youknow what, you're not loading
the dishwasher right.
I could have said, well, whydon't you just load it next time
then, but that wouldn't do anygood for my marriage.
So I said, please tell me, I hadpatience.
(35:30):
Please tell me how you want tohave it loaded and why, and
maybe I can learn and make yourlife a little bit easier.
It's worked out.
Great.
Danu Poyner (35:40):
Yeah.
Is that kind of patientsomething that comes naturally
to you or something that you'veworked at?
Bob Kabacy (35:46):
No, no, it doesn't.
I don't think it comes naturallyto any human being because we
have emotions and emotionssometimes guide us in ways that
we shouldn't be guided and weneed to put our emotions in
check sometimes.
So taking that moment to thinkabout how important is this
object really?
Do I really want to engage?
(36:06):
Do I really want to have thefight?
And sometimes you do.
But sometimes you just letthings simmer a little bit and
let life occur.
Let your emotions calm down anduse a balance of emotions and
brain.
And I think you'll usually getto a better answer.
Danu Poyner (36:23):
I like that phrase, let life occur.
And if you do that, maybe thesolutions present themselves.
If you have a chance to calmdown, think about it a bit
differently.
I want to talk about the magic,Bob, because I'm struck by the
rules-based nature of theenvironment you're working in.
You said something at the startabout helping people by
sometimes getting them out oftheir routine.
(36:45):
At face value and law seem likepretty opposite kinds of things.
What can you tell me about that?
Bob Kabacy (36:51):
The law is very left brain, rule-based.
Magic seems very right brain andcreative based, and it is, but
of course, magic is alsorule-based.
We work with the rules ofphysics and the rules of
psychology.
So we do have a set of ruleswith magic.
The difference between law andmagic is while you mechanically
(37:12):
apply the rules and sometimesemotions are involved, with
magic, you present it at thestory or at the magic in a way
that manipulates the psychologyor the physical nature of what
you're doing, that gives anappearance of the impossibility.
I want to use the wordmanipulate because good
magicians will say they don'tlie.
(37:32):
They will let the audience makean assumption.
It's very important as amagician and me as a lawyer in
particular to not lie aboutanything.
But if I say, please select acard, you're assuming that if a
random card and from myperspective, it may not be a
random card.
I don't say please select arandom card unless I really mean
(37:56):
it.
So magic is yes, a right brainactivity in terms of its
creation and its creativity, butit's also a left brain activity
in terms of scripting andpresentation and rule based and
how to work with the rules.
I find that it's a great bridgebetween my right brain and left
(38:17):
brain to exercise what's goingon as well as a great training
tool.
Teaching tool.
It's fun.
I really enjoy letting peopleget lost in the moment of magic.
And if you've been to a goodmagic show and you allow
yourself to get lost in themoment, it's very entertaining
and it's not just about theeffects.
(38:40):
The effects are the effects.
It's really about thestorytelling that is behind the
effects because of the effect byitself.
Okay, great.
You could watch a star wars, Xwing blow up and it looks really
cool on screen, but it's thestory behind how that X wing got
there and how that eventoccurred.
And who's in the X wing thatreally matters.
(39:01):
Magic is a lot aboutstorytelling.
Danu Poyner (39:03):
It's so true.
I went to this online event theother week and they had a
magician doing a bit betweeneach speaker.
It was simple things he wasdoing, but he was drawing in the
story from everything withpresenters had said.
It really lifted the wholeevent.
So I have a lot of time forthis.
It's the magic something thatyou do on the side?
Is it something you bring intoyour practice?
Bob Kabacy (39:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's on the side.
Yes.
And not so much on the sidelately with the book and with my
practice and making sure that Istay married and have a good
family and everything.
So there's only 24 hours in theday, but I've pursued it as a
serious hobby.
Well, enough to have done stateshows, parlor shows, closeup
(39:46):
shows, busking table.
And understanding the psychologyof magic and frequently we'll
include it in my presentationson estate planning, similar to
your speaker.
Instead of a joke, I'll open upwith a magic trick or a story
and how it fits into the estateplanning.
For example, one of the effectsI use is a great effect.
(40:07):
It's a Rubik's cube that you mixup right on stage.
And you talk about how estateplanning can be really
complicated, but if you'reguided correctly, you tossed the
Rubik's cube in the air.
And as you catch it, you can sayit doesn't have to be
complicated.
And as you catch the mixed upRubik's cube, you can actually
show it solved, completely sawas if it solved in the air.
(40:30):
The trick is with this type ofspeaking.
I've got to pause for a littlebit, because if I go right into
my point, people are stillthinking about how the rubrics
off itself, as opposed tolistening to what was my real
point in the story.
Danu Poyner (40:47):
I don't think I've ever seen anyone apply these
things together.
It sounds like it must go overpretty well but what confidence
does it take to present likethat?
Bob Kabacy (40:56):
When you have to have a lot of confidence,
because it's twofold.
Number one, you've got to be amaster of your presentation.
So the concepts of estateplanning or whatever, I'm
speaking about the book orotherwise, the second thing
you've got to have confidence inthe magic effects.
I did a show actually for myfirm, which was about 70 people
(41:19):
at the time or 50, it was.
And it was a Christmas show.
This was right before a COVID.
And it was a 40 minute show, butI probably spent a year and a
half and about 150 hoursscripting and preparing for a 40
minute show because I wanted tomake sure that I had confidence
(41:41):
on stage, that things were goingto go well and everything was
going to be tied togethernicely.
The music was right, and it wasan enjoyable experience for the
audience.
So it's not just about gettingup and doing the tricks.
It needs to be done as apresentation.
Your confidence can get shakensometimes because I have been on
(42:01):
stage and have had an effectfail and they do occur
sometimes.
And the mark of a goodprofessional.
I learned this in the golfworld.
I got to walk behind aprofessional golfer for a
tournament one day.
And boy, he made many mistakeson the golf course, but it
(42:22):
wasn't the mistake.
It was how he got out of it.
That was just amazing.
So I've applied that to life andsay, look, we're human beings.
We're going to make mistakes.
Whether you're a magician onstage or whether you're working
in a restaurant and the ordergets screwed up, it's not the
mistake.
It's how you get out of it.
That really matters.
And You weren't to get out of itwith grace and with a little bit
(42:44):
like a cat, I meant to do that,or this was supposed to happen.
That's, what I've learned aboutthe confidence and the stage
presentations.
Danu Poyner (42:54):
Was there ever a world in which magic was more
than a serious hobby and it wassomething that would have been
your main gig.
Bob Kabacy (43:01):
Uh, no, I can't say it was, although I remember
several nights working all dayand then going out and working
at bars and entertaining folksat bars and stuff, and that's
called busking tables andwhatnot.
I've done that in Las Vegas acouple of times and had a great
experience, but it's notsomething that I wanted to make
(43:24):
a career out of because I didn'thave that same passion for magic
that someone like DavidCopperfield has, he lives and
breathes magic.
And his book, David Copperfieldthat recently came out is an
awesome example of howpassionate he is about.
The passion that I have isreally in the estate planning
(43:46):
world.
It's what I've built.
It's what I live.
It's what I breathe.
It's why I wrote this book.
If we follow our passions, wecan make the world a better
place, no matter what we'redoing.
If your passion is servingtables at a restaurant or your
passion is it is, do it the bestyou can and become a master at
it.
Danu Poyner (44:06):
Was there a moment when you had that realization,
that estate planning was yourpassion with that kind of level
of sudden clarity?
Or was it something that dawnedon you over a period of time?
Bob Kabacy (44:18):
Yeah, I put the data together.
I took a state planning and taxand law school, and those were
some of my easiest classes.
After I started working, estateplanning was one of the areas
that the firm wanted me to workin and I was just thoroughly
enjoying it.
I dove in headfirst and learnedas much as I could read as much
(44:38):
as I could, and really became a,I wouldn't say an expert, but
more knowledgeable than anaverage lawyer is in the estate
planning arena.
And really embraced it as, thisis what I want to do with my
life and have enjoyed it everymoment, even after almost 30
years of doing that.
(44:58):
I think the other thing that isa calling for me is I've been
fascinated with the concept ofdeath and the concept of loss
and the human reaction to it.
I really feel like part of mypurpose is helping guide people
through that because we don'thave those guides in school.
(45:18):
We don't have books out there.
There are psychologists andpsychiatrists that help people
through grief.
And there are some books thathelp people through grief and
how to handle grief.
It goes back to studies in 1969about the five stages of grief.
And now the brain mappingthought processes.
Those are all fascinating thingsto me, because if I can help add
(45:42):
information to that segment ofsociety, I can help people.
And if I help people that makesthe world a better place and I
want to leave the world a betterplace.
than when I came into it.
Danu Poyner (45:53):
Thank you.
I think that's a very powerfulway of thinking about it.
I guess then the book you'vewritten is a synthesis of what
you've learned from your ownexperience, as well as dealing
with all of these clients overthe years.
I'm curious, in what ways yousee that process of what happens
after death varying depending oncircumstance and in what ways
(46:14):
are the same for everyone.
Bob Kabacy (46:17):
Great question.
And we are on the forefront ofthe psychology of it.
I've been doing a lot of readingin that regard.
Back in 1969, a researcherindicated that there were these
stages of grief we all gothrough.
What we're learning anddiscovering today is that, yes,
those are feelings we may haveand emotions we have, but we all
(46:39):
are different and we allexperience it differently.
We're starting to learn why weexperience things so
differently.
And there are so many variables,it's a complicated formula,
almost like a DNA strand inthat, you got to look at the
relationship of the loved one,your own upbringing, your
emotional makeup, how much timeyou spent with them, how much
(47:02):
time you spend with themcurrently.
All of the things that go intoloss, and we all react
differently on different timeschedules.
And that's what sometimes causesdisputes.
I have seen cases where twosiblings will have a loss of a
parent and one will be donegrieving after a period of
months.
(47:22):
And the other is grieving twoyears later.
And the one that has donegrieving after months says to
the other one, I don't see whatthe big deal is.
Why can't you just get over it,they're gone.
That then creates or continues asibling rivalry.
That's just horrible.
What I'm trying to ascertain andwork out is a mechanism for
(47:44):
folks to work through theirgrieving, understand that it's
natural, do it in the naturalcourse, but also understand that
you can get stuck in theprocess.
There are a lot of people whoare stuck in the grieving
process, who are still depressedafter the loss of a loved one,
and just can't get out of andgrow from it, learn from it.
(48:06):
I feel terrible for them andthey should seek help.
Listen, I have no problemadmitting that I was struggling
with the passing of my motherand I sought professional help
because that's what they'rethere for.
We live in communities withexpertise.
For a reason, we rely on eachother for survival and to have a
better life.
So if we have those resourcesout there, we should use those
(48:29):
instead of trying to self-helpor take other drastic actions,
which we read about.
Danu Poyner (48:34):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
And it really interestingexample about the siblings,
really shows that variation, Ithink as well, this might be a
slightly in delicate question,but is there some difference in
how the process unfolds when anestate is smaller as to when
it's worth a lot of money andit's highly contested by the
family.
Bob Kabacy (48:54):
Great question.
The answer depends a lot on thenature of the heirs or the
survivors.
I have seen small estates, wheredisputes arise because.
So-and-so took someone's dollwhen they were younger and
they're not going to get awaywith it now.
And they are going to fight tothe death and spend the whole
(49:16):
estate on lawyers, just to spitethe other person.
In the super wealthy estates Ithink you add the emotional
aspect of money.
We have to remember money is atool, but people view money as a
measure of love, or they view itas a measure of security,
happiness.
We know that money doesn't buyhappiness.
(49:38):
Although some people say itmakes a good down payment on it,
it doesn't.
When you have larger estates inthose disputes arise, the
concepts and the disputes arethe same.
We just have the complicatingfactor of there's more to divvy
up.
There's more to fight about.
So It becomes a mechanicalprocess, but the actual emotions
(50:01):
behind the disputes are prettysimilar, whether it's a small
estate or a large estate I'm notsurprised by that conclusion
either because we're all humanbeings.
We have our emotions.
All our emotions are prettysimilar when you boil them all
down.
We all have bouts of greed andwe all have bouts of sadness.
(50:21):
We all have bouts of happinessand joy.
We all share these things.
It's just when we share them andhow we share them and how we
communicate about them with eachother, that can sometimes cause
disputes, especially when you'redealing with the loss event, and
the grieving process.
I love this idea of the brainhaving a remap and I've
(50:44):
experienced it.
Physically you're tired,mentally, you're tired.
And as a result, when you'redisputing with a sibling or
another heir, it can becomeoverwhelming and the negative
situation, a negativeexperience.
I try to help my estates getthrough that and make sure that
they don't have it similar tothe playground.
I wanna make sure that states gothrough smoothly.
Danu Poyner (51:06):
That's so interesting.
Thank You've been doing this fora long time.
Knowing what you know now what'sadvice you would give to young
bob
Bob Kabacy (51:13):
A couple of things.
One, I would tell young Bob tobe a little bit more patient.
I wasn't patient I've had tolearn that.
The second thing that I wouldprobably tell young Bob is, you
don't have to be an overachieverfor people to like you.
I grew up in an environmentwhere people would like you, if
you found massive success.
(51:35):
Tom cruise, great movie success,not everybody likes him.
And do they like him onlybecause of his success?
I don't know.
Cause I don't know him.
And I don't know the people whoare interacting with him, but I
think I would tell young Bob,people are going to like you for
who you are, as long as you justbe yourself, you don't have to
(51:57):
overachieve in order to try toget people to like you.
I am where I am today becauseyoung Bob probably wanted to
overachieve to get more peopleto like him.
Today I help run a law firm.
I've got this book, I stillswim.
I've got a good family.
I'm still overachieving today,but I'm coming to the
(52:18):
realization that people aregonna like me for who I am, if I
just be myself and if they don'tlike me, okay, I'll move away
from them.
Danu Poyner (52:28):
Yeah, it takes a certain level of life experience
to come to that.
Doesn't it.
Speaking of overachieving, Youmentioned the swimming.
you've been a nationally rankedswimmer in the 50 yard
freestyle.
Is that right?
Bob Kabacy (52:39):
Yeah.
It was a NAI division two.
So went to university of Pugetsound and I ended up getting a
national record my senior year,which was a very exciting event.
Danu Poyner (52:49):
What do you enjoy about swimming?
Bob Kabacy (52:51):
I think swimming for me is a little bit like
meditation or yoga for a lot ofpeople.
When I'm in the pool, swimming,doing it well, it takes a lot of
mechanical thought and it allowsme to be mindful.
And in the moment, how is myhand entering the.
Am I getting the right degree asI pull through the water, how
(53:13):
does the water feel?
Am I going fast enough?
How is my body feeling at themoment?
What that mindfulness does is itallows us as people to let the
subconscious process everythingelse that has been going on
throughout the day.
There was a recent thing innational geographic about
mindfulness.
What they're realizing is thatwe go through the day and we
(53:35):
have all this stuff andconscious thoughts.
Our subconscious can processthings in a way that our
conscious can't and by beingmindful through yoga meditation,
just mindfulness exercise,there's even an app out there
about that or swimming orwhatever you're doing.
We can actually become moreeffective in what we're doing.
(53:58):
And make better decisions andbecome less bogged down.
It's a little bit like a filter.
That's processing everything forus.
That's what, how oursubconscious acts.
If I'm able to processeverything at the end of the
day, or even in the morning, ifI do a morning swim, I just have
a better day, better evening.
My wife knows when I come home,she's like you're swimming
(54:19):
tonight, right?
Yep.
And she says, okay, you're donewith your workout.
Great to see the Bob.
I know again.
Danu Poyner (54:26):
That's a really interesting point bob, and I'm
struck several times in thisconversation, by the way you
described situations and beingpresent in that moment, like the
realization during your owngrieving process about how that
would be applicable.
And as you're saying with theswimming about how the hand is
moving through the water, Ithink that mindfulness is a
really way of making sense ofthat.
Bob Kabacy (54:49):
It's something that allows me to, while my body's
not at rest, my mind is at restbecause I'm focused on all of
the details to make my strokebetter.
Let's be honest.
I'm not going to go to theOlympics.
I'm not going to be a nationallyranked swimmer again, unless
it's masters or something, but Istill want to have that good
(55:10):
technique.
And I still want to be able to,I call it, get up on it
sometimes in the pool and reallyjust enjoy the moment because I
know a couple of things aregonna happen.
Number one, I'll become a betterswimmer.
Technically number two, I'll letmy subconscious filter out all
the garbage that occurred duringthe day.
(55:31):
And number three, doesn't likethat endorphin rush at the end
when your workouts over.
Danu Poyner (55:37):
Absolutely.
It sounds like you like to getup on it in everything that you
do in life.
What are you focusing on at themoment?
Bob Kabacy (55:45):
I think getting this book out is really important to
me and what I've learned aboutpublishing is.
You have books that you have towork to get them out.
And sometimes they fail and justdie on the vine.
Sometimes they get their ownlife and they just create their
own reputation.
And they just take off, I'mtrying to get this book to have
(56:07):
its own life.
And the purpose for that is I'vegot a second one ready to go for
editing, which expands andbrings more of during life
process instead of that deathprocess into the fold in a
similar vein.
I really want to get going onthat, but my publisher says,
let's get this one going first.
(56:29):
And then we'll work on gettingthe second one going.
I've got to promote that firstone.
At the same time, I've got tokeep my law practice going and,
I want to make sure.
Child is doing what he supposedto be doing.
And my wife is happy.
Danu Poyner (56:42):
A lot of plates to keep spinning.
We'll put a link to the book inthe show notes, of course.
But where would you suggest isthe best place for people to go
have a look at it?
Bob Kabacy (56:50):
Sure.
You can go to Robert dot com.
That's a good summary of thebook it's available on beyond
words, who's the publisher.
You can also pick it up at theregular sources like Amazon
Barnes and Nobles.
There's several links on theRobert qbc.com that talk about
it in detail so that you can seehow it is.
Danu Poyner (57:10):
Wonderful.
One question I always askeveryone who comes on the
podcast, is you could giftsomeone a life-changing learning
experience, what would it be andwhy?
Bob Kabacy (57:22):
This is a great question.
Maybe this is skewed because ofthe profession on me and if I
could do so in a safeenvironment, I think I would
want somebody to have, Iwouldn't want to give it to
them, but I would want somebodyto have a near death experience
and the reason I would want themto have that and come out of it.
(57:45):
Cause I don't want them to die,but I'd want them to come out of
it because the people who I'vemet, who have had near death
experiences, see the world in avery unique, enlightened way
that the rest of us who don'tunderstand what death really is
feel.
They just enjoy every moment, alittle bit more.
(58:08):
They appreciate things a littlebit more.
And the minutia of the daybothers them a little bit last.
If you are diagnosed with cancerand you realize that you may not
make it, and then you do makeit, you become a little bit
different person.
You have an experience thatsays, wow, I dodged a bullet on
(58:31):
that one.
I think you see the world alittle bit differently.
I think a little bit better.
I would never wish death onsomebody.
I would never wish theexperience or pain or whatever
they're going through.
But if I could somehow magicallyimplant that feeling of seeing
the world a little bit betterwithout your death experience,
(58:52):
that's what I'd want to do.
Danu Poyner (58:53):
Well, that is not the answer I expected, but it's
maybe the best answer you couldhave given, I think.
I wonder if people.
Who have had that experience,whether sometimes other people
find them a bit annoying after awhile because they bring such
positivity.
It puts a pressure on the peoplearound them to be more positive
than they want to be.
Bob Kabacy (59:12):
It could be, but it's not necessarily positive.
The people I've interacted withthe lead normal lives.
They just, they see it a littlebit differently.
It's very subtle, but they seeit a little bit differently
because they know we're not likecars.
Your car runs out of oil.
You still can drive it for alittle bit.
You get a flat tire, you cantell it or whatever.
Man.
(59:33):
If we have an artery that popsout, we're gone, we have a
vessel in our brain that strokesout we're gone.
So we're very fragile.
And I think that those who havehad the experience recognize the
fragileness of life andunderstand that the big picture
there's more to it than just theminutiae.
(59:55):
They pay attention to theminutia, but they're just a
little bit calmer.
It seems like.
Danu Poyner (01:00:00):
Yeah.
yeah, it's been a great pleasuretalking to you today.
I really have enjoyed ourconversation.
It's gone to some places that Ididn't expect at all, and I
really have enjoyed what yousaid about letting life occur
and getting people out of theirroutine.
It's such a love of life thatcomes through from listening to
you.
I think that more than manypeople, you are well positioned
(01:00:21):
to have that approach and bethat guide for people through
the difficult process ofplanning for what happens death.
I want to thank you very muchfor that.
Bob Kabacy (01:00:31):
I want to thank you for having me on the program
today.
I often have been asked if youcould do anything what would you
do?
And I often will respond I wouldwant to be a rock star.
And they say, why?
And I say, well, number one, notthe way you're thinking, because
I have no musical talent.
But if you think about it, arock star and a rock
(01:00:51):
performance.
Has the ability to suspendpeople's normal life for a
couple hours and really bringenjoyment to them at a grand
scale, 50,000 people at a timeor more, they help make the
world a better place at a grandscale.
And I'm trying to do it onefamily at a time, one book at a
(01:01:13):
time.
And maybe at some point I get tobe like one of the other authors
that can command a theater of acouple thousand people.
And, we'll get there.
Maybe not.
If I can only change one life ata time, I've done my job.
I've left the world a betterplace.
That's what I want.
Danu Poyner (01:01:28):
Thank you.
That was a great place to leaveit.
I hope people do check out thebook as well, because it is
genuinely, one of the mostinteresting things I've seen.
There are things out there thatare very mechanical for
preparing, but I think this is avery human book and it's
designed in a very human way.
please do go check it out
Bob Kabacy (01:01:47):
Thank you very much.
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