Sitting Power: why the won game is the easiest to lose - John Fawole | S3E3 - Still Curious

Episode Transcript
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John Fawole (00:00):
The better player is always lucky.
A better player can be losing agame, and they're able to save
it.
There are some positions youcan't save, especially if your
opponent is playing correctly,but your opponent is excited,
then it becomes really verydifficult for them to win.
There's always that saying thatthe hardest game to win in chess

(00:20):
is won game, because now, oh,you feel like you are winning
this game and you're not puttingin the effort to bring out the
best moves that can win thegame.
You're just assuming, oh, I'mwinning, I'm winning.
But if you're opponent does notresign, the game is not over.
So you need to like make sureyou fight to the end to make
sure the game is over.

Danu Poyner (00:44):
You're listening to the Still Curious Podcast with
me.
Danu Poyner.
My guest today is John Fawolewho is an International Chess
Federation master, US nationalmaster 2003, Nigeria junior
chess champion and the 2013Nigeria chess champion.
John is an international chessFederation instructor, chess in

(01:04):
education lecturer, and thefounder of Bruvs Chess Media and
its sister company Bruvs Chesseducational services.
John also holds an executivemaster's degree in business
administration and a bachelor'sdegree in computer science.
Today's conversation isunsurprisingly all about chess.
But it's also about effortobsession and how the love of

(01:27):
something can keep us going andtake us to places we never
imagined were possible.
It's about how achievementsarise from patience and
commitment and the interestingdynamics between professional
competition and play.

If you wanna be a good player with chess, you need
to be obsessed with it.
And I believe it applies toeverything in life.
If you want to be great atanything, you have to be
obsessed with it and make sureyou're able to do it well.
it's only when you do what youlove that you are able to commit
to it.
You are happy about it, you havepassion for it.
and you don't see it like ajoke.
It's just like a normal part ofyou So just do what you love and

(02:05):
you are able to just achievethings you want to achieve in
life.

John discovered his love of chess very early on.
And while he was fortunateenough to have parents who were
very supportive.
It wasn't alwaysstraightforward.

my academics was failing because, I was doing
more time on chess than onacademics, so it really affected
my studies in uni.
I was going to represent Nigeriain the World Junior Chess
Championship.
A very great opportunity for meto play with the best junior
chess players in the world.
I took a leave of absence forschool for six months just to go

(02:37):
to play in this tournament.
But the main problem was Ididn't tell them that I took a
leave of absence.
They've got to find out, andthey were really mad about that.
It was just so much passion forchess and you made some crazy
decisions,

At its heart though, this isn't a story of
one person's quest for ultimatesuccess.
While John's initial ambitionwas to become a Grandmaster, he
lights up most when talkingabout his grassroots education
and advocacy work and how he'sable to use his accomplishments
and expertise to help others,whether it's building capacity

(03:10):
to put his country'sachievements on the map, or
using chess as a way to teachyoung people important life
skills like creativity,innovation, and pattern
recognition.

You know, they have to like, okay, jump like a
knight, and they're moving fromone square, to another.
Oh, move like a bishop.
And they're going on the darkcorner on the squares.
it's just so interesting forkids and once you enter the
class, they just want to like,oh, chess, chess, chess.
They always look forward to it.

I learned a lot from John who was very gracious
in answering my many newbiequestions about how chess works.
We also had a good discussionabout how the game is evolving,
thanks to software tools, AI andrepresentation in popular
culture.
Enjoy, it's my conversation withJohn Fawole coming up after the
music on today's episode of theStill Curious Podcast.

(04:25):
So, hi John.
Welcome to the podcast.
Such a pleasure to have youhere.
How are you doing today?

Yes, I'm doing great.
Danu.
I'm happy to be here.
Thanks for the invites.
I really appreciate this.

So, you're a World Chess Federation Master,
instructor and'Chess inEducation' lecturer; you are the
2003 Nigeria Junior ChessChampion and the 2013 Nigeria
chess champion.
And you're also a US NationalMaster; you're the founder of
BruvsChess Media and its sistercompany, Bruvschess Educational

(04:56):
Services; and you also hold anexecutive MBA and a degree in
computer science.
How did chess become part ofyour life and what makes it
exciting to you?

I started playing chess in high school, two of my
friends used to play chess and Ijust watched, I really never
picked interest at first, but afew days of learning the game, I
started beating my friends andmy uncle traveled to the UK and
he gave me my first chess bookand I read it.
I started beating the best chessplayer in the school, and that

(05:28):
was how I started chess.
And, I grew up in the universityenvironment, they used to have
the chess club called o a uChess Club, and they have some
very strong masters around atthe club.
So when I go, I just watch themplay as a teenager.
Just watching exactly whatthey're doing and I'm learning

(05:49):
from them.
And pretty fast I startedbeating some of them.
That was how the chess journeystarted.

Amazing.
So it started really early onfor you.
It must have been an interestingexperience to find that you were
naturally already beating all ofthese people.
How did that feel for you at thetime?
What were you thinking about it?

Yeah, I mean, it took a while, but, I didn't play
chess tournament for a very longtime because unlike, the United
States, for example, if you arevery young and you have access
to tournaments, we don't havethat in Nigeria.
So we can just hang around at aclub like the University Chess
club and just watch what they doand try to play chess.
But at that time, I was playing,I never really thought about

(06:30):
playing in chess tournamentsbecause, uh, we don't have so
many of them in Nigeria, so it'sjust best to learn from the best
guys around and watch what theydo and started studying on my
own and it felt great likebeating some of them.

It's interesting.
I'm wondering if you can paintus a bit of a picture of growing
up in Nigeria.
You're from, uh, Ile-Ife.
Is that right?

Yes.
I'm from Ile-Ife and Ile-Ife isthe source of Yoruba people,
popularly known as the source.
I grew up in Ife in theuniversity environment.
My mom works, uh, at theUniversity staff school.
She's a teacher.
And my dad worked briefly at theuniversity before he founded his
own company and he was intoautomobile engineering and,

(07:12):
doing his own personal businessand all, Attended a secondary
school in Ile-Ife, and I wasthere for a very long time
because, I didn't have theopportunity to like, go to a
boarding school like some of mysibling.
Growing up, my parents wouldn'tallow me, because, uh, they feel
like, okay, if you fall sick,uh, he wouldn't be able to take
care of himself.

(07:32):
We have this malaria in Africa.
A lot of people deal with it.
And, uh, most especially if yourgenotype is AA, uh, you get to
fall sick frequently frommalaria.
And at that point in time, itwas my growing days, I needed my
parents around and because Ifall sick a lot as a teenager,
so they would say, oh, you needto stay back home and no

(07:53):
boarding school for you.
I learned a lot from thatbecause, uh, It really changed
my perspective about a lot ofthings, even though a lot of
people would think, oh, he's amummy's pet or something, but I
was mostly with my parents.

I'm curious what you were dreaming about and
thinking about as a teenager orvery early on, what was plan A
for you?

So while I was young, my parents registered
myself and my siblings formartial arts.
I did karate, I did judo, I didTaeKwonDo.
I used to go for swimminglessons.
I used to enjoy myself, ridebicycle to my friend's house and
just like that, we just playaround, and the ambition was
either to be a computer engineeror be a medical doctor?

(08:36):
My parents, my dad, ex mostespecially, wanted me to be a
computer engineer, because hestudied here in the US and
returning back home, he had someideas on some of the career
options.
And he always suggested to mebecause, uh, growing up I used
to just open up the turntable,like try to unscrew stuff and he
was wondering like, okay, thisguy's just spoiling things at

(08:56):
home.
Okay, maybe you should go forcomputer engineering.
you know?
So.

Guess You learned to play chess as I understand
it, in, in 1998 and then enteredyour first tournament the
following year in 99.
and then you went on to win theNational Chess Champion Junior
not long after, a couple ofyears after that.
It's a pretty steep trajectoryand all that's happening while
you were a teenager.
What was life like for you atthe time, going through that
experience?

So, uh, compared to now as a teenager, I never
really bothered about so muchthings because my parents would
just be there to like, okay,settle most of the things.
If I want to go to anytournament, they pay for it.
They make sure I'm comfortable.
I'm just able to just do thosethings as a teenager.
But right now, growing up isquite different because now I
have my own family.
I need to cater for the family,I need to do a whole lot of

(09:43):
things.
So, it's a little bit achallenge combining chess with
other aspects of life, but as ateenager, you don't get to worry
about those things.
If you have parents that aresupportive, that they just want
to see you succeed, uh, in anyendeavor that you pick, uh, you
don't get to worry about it.
So, I mean, I feel like I playedthe best of my chess when I was
still a teenager than right now,because now I have so many

(10:06):
things clouding my head.
I want to do this, I want to dothat.

So it sounds like the way that this started for
you was, you, you've discoveredthat you could do this and you
were just following it and andseeing where it went.
And then was there a, a momentwhen you started to realize this
was sort of a viable track foryou, or that you were gonna be
really good at this?

Unlike kids in the Western countries, we don't have
access to a lot of things.
And even those days it's verydifficult to get chess books.
Maybe one person will have achess book, then other people
will try to make photocopy of itso that you can stay informed
with the latest information.
And that was a pretty challengefor most of the chess players,

(10:50):
not just me and other chessplayers in Nigeria, because we
don't have access to all thesethings.
Because of that would add totrain ourselves.
In the US when I see people,because I work with kids right
now, I teach kids how to playchess and all those things, and
I don't have that opportunitybecause I, brought myself from
nowhere to like become a masteron my own.

(11:12):
I trained on my own.
I never had a trainer, I neverhad a coach.
I was just reading, consumingthose books and I became very
good on my own.
So when I was going to like, getinto playing chess tournament, I
started performing well.
Like I used a hundred percentperformance.
If I play 10 around tournamentand I have nine, over nine or
8.5 over nine, the dream was,oh, I wanna become a

(11:36):
grandmaster.
When I saw that, I startedperforming well and I, I used to
play all these guys.
I've been in the game for yearsand I beat them in tournaments.
I'm like, When did I startplaying and when did I start
beating all these people?
So I used to think like, okay,maybe I'm gonna be a
grandmaster.
I wanna become a grandmaster.
That was the major ambition.

So ambition to become a Grand Master emerged as
you were going through theprocess.
I'm, I'm really struck by theimage of you doing all of this,
um, as you say, with thechallenges of the access to
resources and the solitarypursuit of, studying everything.
Chess, just as an outsider seemsa niche, uh, area.
Is it something that you're ableto connect with other people

(12:16):
socially?
How does that fit into yourlife?

That's a very good one because, uh, that's one of
the things chess brings to you,the connection with other
people.
You are able to network.
Uh, like mind as well.
You get, tutors have made somevery important connections that
are still very useful for me inmy life right now, that
connection, most especiallynetworking is very good.
Yeah.
Because you meet people fromdiverse background, people from

(12:42):
different tribes and, uh,religion, you know.
So it was just fun, like, okay,you get to meet these people
from different states, evenbefore trying to play
international.
Just within the locality inNigeria, we have three major
tribes, several kind oflanguages.
So you get to meet people fromeverywhere around around
Nigeria.
it was really fun.

Oh, that's fantastic.
can, I can well imagine that.
You became the National JuniorChess Champion, which is a
really significant achievement.
What kind of impact did thathave on your life at the time?

Yeah, it was a very difficult time for me when I
became a national juniorchampion.
difficult in the sense that, uh,it was almost the same time I
was trying to gain admissioninto the university, so I needed
to do some kind of studies andeverything.
But with the National JuniorChess Championship title, I was
able to gain admission throughsports to go to study computer

(13:36):
engineering at OAU.
I became a role model of thegame at a very young age, and
people were looking at me andwant to learn more about chess.
I used to travel, like go togive some pep talk in schools
just to encourage students whoplay chess.
I did that a couple of times inLagos where I just get invited
and just talk about chess andall these things were not

(13:59):
documented because we don'thave, of course we have
internet, but it's not like youcan just put something on the
internet like Twitter or you useInstagram right now.
Yeah, a lot of people are doingmost of the things I've done in
the past right now to createchess awareness.

I'm really keen to talk about the chess awareness
and that kind of grassrootscommunity work that you're
doing.
And we'll come to that in alittle bit.
I'm just still really pulling onthis thread of how you came to
grow into this path that you'reon.
You kind of mentioned there thatyour achievements in chess
actually created an opportunityfor you to pursue the computer

(14:33):
engineering.
Given that's the track that dadwas really keen on, was there a
kind of crossroads where you hadto make a decision about
computer engineering or chess,or was that not really how it
was?

It's a kind of scenario like, when I was in
high school, I don't need toread too much.
When the teacher speaks and I'mable to grab something, I'm just
going there to write the examand I just came through and
pass.
But it's quite different, likegetting into the university and
I was to adopt the same methodof not trying to study really
hard, just listen to the lectureand just go to pass the exam.

(15:08):
I mean, it changed a lot for mebecause now I notice that it's
quite different.
I need to devote more time toacademics in the university.
And because of that, my firstyear or second year in the
university, I had some badgrades, okay, because now I was
committing so much time tochess, like studying and doing
stuff, just doing a whole lot ofstudies.
And, my academics was failingbecause, I couldn't balance both

(15:31):
of them.
So.
I was doing more time on chessthan on academics, so it really
affected my studies in uni.
I didn't withdraw from theuniversity.
What happened was I was going torepresent Nigeria in the World
Junior Chess Championship.
That would be a very greatopportunity for me to like, play
in such a tournament with thebest junior chess players in the

(15:53):
world.
I thought to myself, okay, thisis a very tough tournament and
it'll require me to just take aleave of absence from school.
I took a leave of absence forschool for six months just to go
to play in this tournament.
Okay, my parents knew I wasgonna play in the world junior
championship, but the mainproblem was I didn't tell them

(16:14):
that I took a leave of absence.
They've got to find out, andthey were really mad about that.
But that was later on when Icouldn't undo some of the things
I did because yeah, it was justso much passion for chess and
you made some decisions that arenot, maybe I just call them some
crazy decisions, but then, yeah,but that was what I wanted to
do, like play in thistournament.

(16:34):
I'm just looking at it likemaybe I can become a world
junior chess champion.
That was my thought.
But without rating, without somuch opportunity.
I've just been playing local.
I've never gone out to thecountry to play any chess
tournament, and that was reallya very tough decision.
So when I did that and Icouldn't go back to school after
six months, eventually Icouldn't make it to the World

(16:56):
Junior Chess Championshipbecause of some logistic
problems within the federation.
They couldn't process visas ontime.
And now going back to school wasjust summer.
And the other school, thepolytechnic was going to have
another tournament called theWest Africa Polytechnic Games.
They invited me like, oh, wouldyou want to take any course of

(17:17):
your choice and get somescholarship, they were going to
provide accommodation and allthose things and school fees, I
don't have to pay.
So I thought, oh, maybe that'salso a very good option.
So I took that as well.
Going back to OAU, was just,because I've left school more
than six months and, if youdon't return when you're
supposed to return, you're goingto lose your studentship.

(17:38):
So I've left school like, okay,six months, then a semester
after.
So it wasn't just making sensefor me anymore, and I was just
afraid to open up to my parentsand tell them this is the
situation.
But they used to check on mygrades and all those things, and
they found out like, okay,something is wrong, and they
invited me to come home and thatwas just it.
And they got to know about it,and they were so angry, like,

(18:00):
okay, why would you make such adecision?

From everything you've described, your parents
sound very supportive andenabling of what you wanted to
do, but also had expectationsand wanting the best for you in
terms of a career.
That sounds like a reallydifficult conversation.
How was that for you?

I was not happy that I made the decision.
I wish I could undo stuff likeokay.
But it was just so difficult.
Then in the university, when Igot there, I already won like
two tournaments that we won withmyself and my teammates, we won
gold for the university.
They offered us scholarship formaster's degree, but then I'm
just losing everything because Iwant to play in this world

(18:37):
juniors.
I started looking atuniversities outside Nigeria and
my mom actually wanted me tostudy in the UK but my dad was,
oh, this guy, if he goes to theUK, this guy cannot concentrate
here.
It's just chess, chess, chess,chess.
If he gets to the uk, he won'tbe able to concentrate and
nobody to monitor him.
So let him stay here in Nigeriaand finish his bachelor's.

(18:59):
Then after that, if he wants togo anywhere he can.
Like, okay, you're not going tothe uk.
You have to stay here and study.

You're so enthusiastic about chess and
following that passion and thatdream.
Uh, I wonder if you could justdetour a little bit to tell us
about the process of how youprepare for a tournament.

Okay.
Yeah, so when I'm preparing fortournaments, I mean when I was
much more younger, I do mystudies at night when everything
is quiet because I'm much moreable to concentrate.
I'm just having my chessboard infront of me, or like right now I
train with the computers, butthen there were no computers, so
I tried to figure out games onmy own.

(19:37):
I remember a tournament I won in2002 and I finished with 8.5
over 9 in that tournament.
I chose a particular line I wasgonna play as black, and I look
at the best chess player thatplays it in the world is Garry
Kasparov.
So studied hundred games ofGarry Kasparov there, just
looking at those positions like,okay, this is the idea this guy

(19:58):
is playing.
And to be very honest, in thattournament, nobody got a draw.
All the games I played with aprepared line, I won everything,
that's how it works.
You just need to like, okay,these guys are better than you.
They've been in the game for solong.
Gary Kasparov was a former worldchampion and now studying his
game and figuring out someelements from the game that I

(20:20):
can use in my own game, uh, issomething fantastic.
Right now it's much more easierif you wanna play tournaments,
just prepare some lines with thecomputer and then you can just
go and play.
So without any app or computer,we're just doing things on our
own, like investing time intothese and just looking at those
positions, reminiscing on someof the thoughts and imagining
some ideas and you're able toimplement them over the board.

When you are looking at the games that have
been played and the positions,what is it that you are looking
for?
How are you absorbing thatinformation?

Okay, so when you look at those games, number one,
you are analyzing them to getsome elements that you might not
know about because looking atthose games, they're more
advanced than the kind of gamesI used to play.
Seeing that, okay, this personis a role model and it plays
like this and is able to win thegame, gives you an idea, okay, I
could use the same style in myown game and try to win my

(21:17):
opponents.
It becomes much more easier inchess when you just know the
idea you want to play.
Then you're able to implementit.
Like right now, if my opponentplays something that I'm not
aware of or I've not studied inthe past, I'm going to be caught
unaware and because of that, Imight be able to lose the game.

There are all of these different names of game
styles and patterns of play.
And it's interesting becausewhen you're playing an opponent,
someone will make what seemslike a fairly straightforward
or, or innocent looking move.
And what are you thinking?
Are you going, oh, that meansthey're playing this style or,
or this particular game?

(21:56):
It just seems like a veryabstract set of different
patterns and possibilities, andI'm really interested in that
process of, of how you hold allof that complexity and pattern
recognition, how you recognizewhat's going on.

Yes.
Uh, because In chess we have,different types of openings, so
we have the openings where yougive the gambits.
We have the queens gambits, wehave the kings gambits.
If I'm playing and I'm using thewhite pieces, I need to prepare
for my opponent as white and, asblack, I also need to prepare
against my opponent.
So it works like that becausewhite makes the first move, and

(22:28):
when you are playing white, youalready prepare your opponent as
white.
Either you want to go with theking's pawn or the queen's pawn
or the C4 pawn, which we callthe English opening.
You need to prepare all thesethings and get out of the
opening phase.
My understanding is that if yourcalculation is good, you are
able to get out of the openingand play very well.
So the middle game is also veryimportant.

(22:50):
And now after the middle game,we have to know like some
transpositions that goes intothe end game.
Not all games end by going intothe end game.
Most game finish in the middlegame.
Some games also finish in theopening phase.
If you make an opening blunder,the game will be over.
So you need to like know allthese elements, how you're gonna

(23:12):
put them together.
You need to learn some thingsabout middle game, which has to
do with strategy because that'swhere you apply strategy in the
game, the middle game.
You need to be very sharp withtactics in the end game.
But the opening phase is just,okay, how do I develop my
pieces, bring them out and makesure I have space and able to

(23:32):
play a good game.
But the middle game is veryimportant.
Without the middle game, youcan't play the good chess.
So the middle game is thataspect I really want to
concentrate on because that'swhere the ideas come from.
If you're having a difficultgame, you know like, oh, this is
not going in my way because howdifficult it is on the board,
you are able to recognize it.
Like, if you're going down thedrain, you definitely know.

Well, that's an interesting question.
How possible is it to recoverfrom a blunder in chess in your
experience?

Okay.
There's a code that says thebetter player is always lucky.
A better player can be losing agame, and they're able to save
it.
Maybe, your opponent getsexcited so much that, they do
not play well, you know?
But most times it deals withcalculation.
There are some positions youcan't save, most especially if

(24:24):
your opponent is playingcorrectly, but your opponent is
excited, then it becomes reallyvery difficult for them to win.
There's always that saying thatthe hardest game to win in chess
is the won game, because now,oh, you feel like you are
winning this game and you're notputting in the effort to bring
out the best moves that can winthe game.

(24:46):
You're just assuming, oh, I'mwinning, I'm winning.
But if you're opponent does notresign, the game is not over.
So you need to like make sureyou fight to the end to make
sure he resigns or she resignsand the game is over.

Yeah.
That's a good lesson for a lotof things as well, isn't it?
I mean, It's a highly technicalgame, but also there's a
significant psychologicalcomponent to it.
You mentioned with yourpreparation that you are looking
at people you admire and theirtechniques.
Are you also looking at youropponent's pattern of play or

(25:20):
what kind of research do you doon your opponent?

Back then, because we don't have so much
information like games stored indatabase and all, you can just
have an idea like, oh, thisperson plays this, and you
prepare on your own for youropening.
Right now you can just searchyour opponent's name and see all
their games and prepare for it.
But back then there was nothinglike that.
So you can just, oh, this guyplays the Sicilian defense.

(25:44):
Okay, let me go and prepare forthe Sicilian defence.

You mentioned a couple of times, 8.5 over 9 and
things like that.
Are you able to explain whatthat means maybe for people who
are not chess players?

Oh, okay.
So we have different formats ofplay in chess.
They have the Swiss system, sothey have the round robin and a
couple of other format of So theSwiss system only pairs people
that win their game versuspeople that win their game.
So it's more or less cumulative.
You score one, you play someonethat scores one, you score zero,
you play somebody that scorezero.

(26:16):
Unless there's something likemaybe odd number of people that
finish with a particular point,then one person that's score one
can play one person that scorehalf or zero depending on the
outcome of the games.
And every time you win a game,you add one point.
So in a nine round tournament,if you win all your nine games,
it means you have nine overnine.
If you draw one game, you have8.5 over nine.

(26:38):
Let's say you win four games,you draw 2 and you lost the
rest.
So that's gonna be five overnine.
If you have two draws, you countas one.

8.5 over 9 is pretty good then

yes, yes,

Um, okay.
I'm curious if you can, maybetell the story of how you became
the Nigerian National ChessChampion.
This is 2013, and I understandthat you, were able to overcome,
essentially the favored opponentto win that.
it sounds exciting.
Would you like to share thatstory?

Yes.
It was an interesting storybecause, it was just, that point
in my life when I was gonnagraduate from the uni and I just
made up my mind, because Istopped playing chess for a
while.
I just wanted to graduate rightnow since, uh.
I don't attend tournaments.
I was just focused on academics.
Let me just graduate my computerscience degree and bachelor's
and that was exactly what Ifocused on.

(27:28):
So it was just at that point inmy life where I just graduated.
and If you graduate in Nigeria,you're supposed to like go for
the National Youth ServiceCorps.
It's a one year program.
You have some para military,then you do some primary
assignment, you know.
So I was waiting for that and Ijust look at it like, okay,
that's not gonna come in somemonths.

(27:49):
Lemme just go and play my firsttournament after a long time.
And that was how it happened.
So I don't know if it's a goodthing to take some time off
chess, like years off chess,then come back to win a big
event like the national,championship.
I traveled to Lagos from Abujaand I played in the tournament.
I won my first game.
It was just like, okay, I wasjust winning games one after the

(28:11):
other, then I lost one.
Then I continued to win the restof them and that was how I won
the championship.
So I think it was a seven roundtournament and I finished with
six over seven.
I lost a game.
Uh, everything changed for me inthe sense that, we've had people
in the past that become Nigerianchess champions, but people

(28:32):
don't really know so much aboutchess.
So me and winning it reallychanged so much about the game
and the status of the nationalchampion because I get
invitations to where I wouldn'tthink I would go to.
I mean, it was a big thing forme that time because, the kind
of offers I get, it changed theface of chess in Nigeria at that
time.
A lot of people, parents wanttheir kids, to play chess.

(28:54):
I grant interviews on tv, radiostations, you know, was, it was
just something very nice us atthat time.
Uh, I really enjoyed being thenational champion, but it's a
title I can't hold on for solong, you know, because I just
don't want be like a localplayer, I needed to move on to
something else.

It sounds like a pretty instantaneous change in
your life, how were youadjusting to that?
It's such sudden surge ofattention and all of these
opportunities.
It sounds like it must be veryhumbling and also very
exhausting and exciting.
Uh, how was that?

Yes.
Uh, it, it was very nice becauseI was just getting those offers
to play here and there.
Got a lot of offers to play inthe tournament organized by
Kasparov Chess Foundation,Africa.
So that was a very goodtournament for me.
It was just like some heavyweight on me.
Like every time you just need toprepare because now there's so

(29:49):
much expectation there.
Whole lot of people are lookingup to you.
I was outdoing myself like, Ineed to prepare in tournaments
and just perform excellentlywell and things were not going
according to plan.
Uh, once I realized that, okay,it now gets more difficult
because you need to just playwell, it gets more difficult and
everybody wants to beat you aswell, at least in Nigeria.

(30:10):
So.

Yeah.
you get a profile and thenyou've got people who are
telling you how much what you'vedone means to them, and then
you've also got a target on yourback as well, I imagine.
You are based in the US now, Iguess you didn't go to the UK
and you didn't stay in Nigeria,how did that come about?

Oh, okay.
So while I was nationalchampion, I was playing chess
almost everywhere.
So I played in the UK for awhile.
I used to go like, then returnto Nigeria.
Then I came to the US In 2015.
I got a job offer from a chesscompany.
Uh, it was gonna be my dad'sbirthday, so I went back to
Nigeria.
I didn't take up the offer.
I came back in 2019 and theoffer was still waiting for me

(30:49):
and Okay, I'll take it thistime.
So that was how I took it.
And go to the US Yeah.

And so at this point, what's the plan now?

Yes, Oh, okay.
Now living, uh, Nigeria andgoing around the world to play
chess playing the UK, Gibraltar,playing in some parts of Africa,
and in the US I noticed thatit's really much more difficult
to devote a time to playingchess because, if I need to
become a grandmaster at the rateat which I was going, I need to

(31:19):
take Chess like a nine to fivejob, And I need to do that for
at least a period of two years.
So I've not been able to devotethat kind of time to chess.
So it is more or less like,facing the reality.
Like, okay, this is really goingto be hard, devoting the time,
but you need also the resourcesyou also need the resources to
make sure you're able to attendinternational tournament, and it

(31:41):
is really costly going from onetournament to the other, by
sponsoring yourself.
You travel here, you have to payfor those return ticket, you
have to pay for hotelaccommodation.
So you keep spending the money.
And if you don't have a verystrong financial backup, the
dream is not going to come intoreality.
it's really difficult and that'sone of the reasons why we don't
have a grandmaster in Nigeriatoday.
We have international masters.

(32:03):
I try to get title on my own aswell, but then it's still
difficult to say, oh, this is aperson that is gonna become the
first Nigerian grandmaster,because you need money.
And when I got to the US I gotan offer like some people that I
met with and they were like,okay, this guy is a little bit
talented.
Maybe we can push for him.
We got into some talks aboutbecoming a grandmaster in two

(32:26):
years, but it was gonna be likesome kind of investment and it
involves a lot of money thatthey're gonna drop for me to be
able to achieve that dream.
But then after I looked at itlike, okay, if I work this hard
and everything, what's next?
After becoming the grandmaster,what is next?
That was a question that askedmyself.
So I declined the offer becausethis is a dream I want.

(32:48):
So now this amount, like 500Kdollars is what they're ready to
invest in me.
Now I finish becoming agrandmaster, I need to be paying
back.
Then I just made up my mind, no,I don't want to take this up, I
have to just let it go.
And maybe later in future, butnot, not now.
I don't want the pressure of methinking, okay, I need to keep

(33:09):
paying back this money.
I've seen grandmasters in theUS, I've seen in other countries
and how they strugglefinancially as well.
But presently I'm really tryingon my own to like, okay,
grandmaster is the aim, butfirst get to International
Master.
So last year I played somecouple of tournaments for
International Master type two,even though the results were not
so fantastic, but I learnt alot.

(33:29):
And if I had to do somethingright, those lessons from the
tournaments will be helpful forme.

Yeah.
That sounds like a really, uh,important and heavy decision, to
make, at that, at that time.
How do you feel about thatdecision now, looking back at
it?

Yeah, I mean, I feel great that I didn't take
the offer because, uh, it wasn'tjust a decision I made on my
own.
I spoke with my family.
I tried to get almost everyone'sopinion.
My wife, you know, we justtalked about it and she was
like, no, you don't wanna becomea grandmaster and now paying
debt.
It is a very difficult one.
It means I'm not gonna doanything, because it means that
I'm giving out these monies topay trainers to make sure I

(34:08):
perform and I need to attendthose tournaments to make sure I
get the titles and the norms.
So if you don't have like somefinancial backings, you're not
going to do it.
I'd rather be an adult improverthan to take such offer.
Yes.

Yeah, I mean, there's such a, an apparatus and
a system that sits aroundprofessional sports and the
money and the resources and thetime commitments.
It's a lot of pressure.
How are you feeling about thelove of the game, versus the
professional pursuit of the gameat that point?

Yeah.
I mean, the love of the game isstill what is keeping us going.
We support, chess events,anything chess, I try to support
as much as possible right now,even if it's anywhere in Africa,
not just Nigeria, but if I'mable to support, I, put in my
effort to just support anythingchess.
It's very difficult to playprofessionally, most especially

(34:59):
if you think, okay, you wannamake money from chess and this
is what you want to do.
That's why a whole lot of titledplayers are moving from playing
chess to teaching chess becauseyou can make a living teaching
chess than just be playingprofessional.
And that's why we don't have somany chess professional.
Of course, people callthemselves professional chess
players, which I believe, is forthose people that are really

(35:22):
play chess every time and theymake money from it.
So the top 20 or 30 grandmasters in the world on the
International Chess Federationranking, those are the people I
consider professional chessplayers.
I don't consider myself aprofessional chess player
because my earnings or mylivelihood does not depend on
playing chess to make a living.

(35:43):
So, because I do a whole lot ofthings with chess, uh, I'd
rather call myself a chessprofessional because now, I can
do some chess teaching.
I can play chess when I want.
If I win, money is good.
So, with the title of ChessProfessional, I'm not putting so
much pressure on myself as aplayer because there are other
ways of making money other thanplaying chess.

Yeah, that's a really interesting point.
But a really simple question foryou, John.
What do you love about chess?
What lights you up about it?

Yes, thank you.
There are so many things thatlights me up about chess.
Um, most importantly, theability to just be creative.
That's one of the things chessteaches, creativity.
You are able to like, refineyour ideas and just come up with
some things that even you mightnot believe this can happen.
And it relates to real life aswell, you know.

(36:33):
In chess, I might be thinkinglike, okay, this is supposed to
be the sequence of the variationI'm supposed to play, but the
actual correct version could bethe reverse of it.
So in chess, your last move canbe the first move.
So you just need to come backand rotate.
and play the move.
So that's some kind ofcreativity, you know, innovation

(36:54):
and if you play like this, thisis how it's gonna go.
But what if we reverse it and itmight just be the right thing, I
learned some thinking processthrough chess.
It teaches a lot of things.
Patience, and I really enjoythat because, it applies to my
everyday life as well.

Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that.
Are there any examples, top ofmind for you, about how that
creativity and patience andthose chess attributes have
helped you in your life?

Yes.
Uh, there are so many examples.
Of course I do a whole lot ofthings related to chess, but I
also do some other things thatare not related to chess.
Like, okay, I just wanna findout what is happening in the
business world.
I want to know the trends.
I just want to like, dive intoit.
Chess teaches you to like,troubleshoot, just do it and see
how it goes, you know?

(37:40):
You can learn from thosemistakes when you make them, you
don't wanna make the samemistake all over again.
That's the way I apply it to myreal life experiences, most
especially in business.
I mean, I used to like dive intosome territory in business that
I wouldn't think I would gointo, but I keep having these
kind of conversations.
I dive into things in education,like creating some platforms

(38:04):
where people can learn.
You know, I just do all thesekind of things and come up with
a team of people.
Okay, what if we do this?
What if we do that?
It brings out those types ofideas that I wouldn't even think
about on a normal day, you know?
So I keep like, okay, writingdown so you don't forget about
it.

Let's talk a little bit about that move into chess
education then, because youbecame a certified chess in
education lecturer and coach,and I'm curious, what it was
like for you making thattransition from competing
professionally into teaching.
what were you able to draw onfrom your previous adventures
and what did you have to learnfrom scratch and what surprised

(38:41):
you along the way?

For chess in education, I was first a
trainer.
I started from the rank ofnational instructor.
Then I moved to FIDE instructorin 2018.
Then in 2020, that was when Igot the FIDE chess in education,
lecturer certification.
But, there are differentdepartments.
For the trainers, they givetrainers certification.

(39:03):
And for chess in education, theygive lecturer and school
instructor certification.
But the interesting part of itis I always love something to do
with education because of mymom.
She's retired, you know, and shewas a teacher for so many years,
and at the point in time sheowned the school.

(39:23):
I was still in high school, butI go to the school.
Like it's a primary school and Igo to teach some subjects like
mathematics.
I teach some things there to thestudents, I enjoy that a lot and
that was was part, okay, let metry to do something with
education.
The interesting part of it isthat chess education is
different from chess sportsbecause chess sports is all

(39:45):
about competing, but chesseducation, we don't compete.
It's all basically about usingchess for other aspect of life,
bringing out the creativity inthe students.
Of course, if they decide laterthey want to become a chess
player, like, you can go intothat but basically it's just
like trying to show them someideas, possibilities of things

(40:08):
that can happen.
Yeah, if you do it this way andthat way, it's more or less like
classroom instruction for chess.
But my role as a certified chessin education lecturer is to
train potential lecturers orschool instructors to be able to
like implement this in theirschool.

That's really interesting.
And I'm also struck by thecomment you made about how, the
focus of chess education is notnecessarily to turn people into
chess players.
I'm curious about what attractsyoung people to chess education
and what's going on for them?

Okay.
Yeah.
So what attracts people intochess education is, it doesn't
look simple when you look at itand they tell you the knight
goes in the L-shape, you want tolearn more.
And kids like all these thingsthat has to do with psychomotor.
You know, they have to like,okay, jump like a knight, and
they're moving from one square,to, to another.
Oh, move like a bishop.
And they're going on the darkcorner on the squares.

(41:09):
it's just so interesting forkids and once you enter the
class, they just want to like,oh, chess, chess, chess.
They always look forward to it.
And once they grab it is justsomething they want to do all
the time.
They don't get tired.

You, you gave me a little glimpse as to what
happens in the classroom settingthere, and it sounds like you
have people moving around andit's very up and about and, can
you maybe paint a bit of more ofa picture about how that works?

Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it's just more or less likeusing chess to teach pattern
recognition.
It's like, okay.
we have the pieces set up on agiant board and the bishop moves
on the diagonal.
So instead of using the bishop,start telling a kid to stay on
the square where the bishop isand try to show me how to get to

(41:55):
the next square or theparticular square on the
diagonal.
So they need to jump from onesquare to the other and make
sure they get to the other endand say, yes, I move like a
bishop, but okay, you wanna movelike a knight.
The knight moves in the L shape.
So can we go, gallop, gallop tothe side?
And they jump, gallop, gallop tothe side.
And because of that, they'reable to understand exactly how

(42:18):
the bishop moves and we can say,okay, move from this square B1
and get to H8.
So they need to figure that outand try to move it, move it,
move it until you're able to getit.
Once they understand thepattern, then it becomes much
more easier.

Thank you for that.
That's a nice visual.
You're an advocate for, um, whatyou call grassroots chess
development.
What does that mean and why isit important to you?

Going around the world to play chess opened my
eyes to a whole lot of things.
I think the most important thingis having a chess culture, which
we don't have.
India has a kind of chessculture.
And the school programs that goon, for example, in Armenia,
chess is compulsory for schools,and with grassroot development
in Nigeria, before I left, I wasworking with a group of people

(43:07):
with like minds, and we aretrying to like make sure that
chess is part of a schoolcurriculum program.
So we pushed that through theMinistry of Education.
We did that to meet with somedignitaries, some senators that
can just put these, because, uh,it's not just gonna happen.
It has to pass through somereadings in the House of
Representatives.

(43:27):
So the senate needs to pass itas a bill, and once it's been
passed as a bill, then we caneasily implement it.
We've been on it for a very longtime, but I mean, it's just so
difficult to do because mostschools or the administrators
say, okay, there's no timebecause they're doing this doing
that subject.
So it's difficult to like slotchess in.

(43:50):
And if you want to do it, maybewe'll put it under mathematics.
There've been a whole lot oftalk going on with that.
Oh, maybe it could be under somesubject that has to do with
calculations as well.
Apart from that, I used to dolike, okay, some outreach.
I volunteer, uh, internally,displaced peoples camps.
We call them IDPs.
I go there with my chessboard,try to volunteer, teach chess,

(44:12):
you know, like life changinggame.
The kids are always lookingforward to it and I just move
around sometimes, maybe set up achess table somewhere and just
play, just to create someawareness, So I was doing this a
lot back home in Nigeria.

Yeah.
That's incredible.
And I'm, I'm wondering if youcan share maybe what are some of
the most transformative effectsthat you've seen when chess
becomes a part of young people'slives in that way,

Yes.
Uh, uh, I've seen a lot.
I've seen kids that couldn't,uh, maybe just sit down for a
few minutes, but when it's chesstime, they try to concentrate.
They enjoy because, it justmakes them concentrate for that
period, they're much morepatient.
Also, in my own personal life,chess made me much more patient.
Also, you know, when we play intournaments, we use the chess

(45:00):
clock.
Using the chess clock also makesme much more punctual when I'm
going somewhere.
Like, I don't like getting latefor appointments.
I always want to be there, youknow, I just wanna be there on
time, you know, time management.
These are some of the things.
Yeah.
Chess, really taught me in myown personal life.
I've seen kids transform fromwhat they used to be to like

(45:21):
getting good grades because theyare enrolled in the chess club
and they are research thatbacked this up as well,
educational research?
Yeah.
About chess kids, people thatare enrolled in chess programing
schools, most especially in NewYork City.
And the kids are performing wellin their education.
They picked up really very fastand they're the best student in

(45:42):
their class.

Interesting point about patience and punctuality.
That's not something I hadconsidered consciously before,
but, that makes a lot of senseto me.
You are the founder and editorof Bruvs Chess as we said at the
beginning, which as I understandit is a website dedicated to
everything chess, including newsand information, advocacy,
pedagogy, advancement and so on.

(46:04):
What made you take that step andhow did it come about?

Okay.
So, for a very long time I'vebeen blogging.
I use the blog spots, just tokeep some information about
chess news in Nigeria.
I do it like, okay, even while Iwas in uni then I just keep
posting it.
I try to get details of suchtournaments and post on the
blog.
I report it all the time, but,okay, why not have, a chess news

(46:31):
company that does all thesethings?
So that's how we came about it.
And I spoke with my friends.
Can we come together and just dothis?
Some of them showed interestbecause they also enjoyed doing
stuff with chess.
So we launched it in 2019.
But personally, on my own, I'vebeen blogging as far back as
maybe 2007 thereabouts, yeah, orI think around 2008 I've been

(46:55):
using like blogger to likepostings, chess news and
information, and I guess somechess international news as
well, just post on those blogs.
Right now we are doing it on abigger scale.
We have, uh, content creator.
We have people that look fornews and they just keep posting.
And the main focus is global,but we concentrate more on

(47:15):
Africa because Africa chess newsis not being taught very well
around the world.
So we concentrate like, okay,there's any news in Africa.
We try to partner with somechess federations in Africa.
If you have some news, you cansend it to us and we report it
on the page.
So that's how we came aboutBruvsChess Media.
But BruvsChess Media is just, ismore or less like a personal pet

(47:38):
project, but right now it'sgrowing in a way that I really
like it.
We don't make profit from it, wejust do it for passion.
Chess players, they love theidea because every time we keep
posting, we share theirinformation, their news, their
tournaments, information.
We share it with the world, andthey're looking up to it.
They're sending us news for thenext tournament and they are so

(47:59):
happy about it because it's moreor less like we're documenting
their history, getting somebodylater can still find it, or
somebody looking up to chess,people contact us.
And they need chess instructors,we are able to like make
recommendations, okay, this is achess instructor you can trust,
you can work with.
There's so much boom for chessright now.
I mean, I'm so happy about itbecause it's one of those things

(48:21):
that come out of Africa and evensometimes the International
Chess Federation needs some newsthat come out from Africa.
And when we report it, theyquote us and say, okay, it's
from us.
And that's just something great.

What do you think is driving that boom in chess
that you mentioned?

Yes, I mean, uh, that's a very interesting
question because chess has notenjoyed this kind of boom in a
very long time.
The current boom is dying down.
It's slowing down.
But the first time chess enjoyedsuch a boom was during the days
of Bobby Fischer.
Bobby Fischer was a, grandmasterfrom the US and former world

(48:58):
champion.
He created some buzz about chessin those days during the World
Championship with Spassky.
I think it happened in 1972, buthe had it in March in 1992.
So that kind of buzz, like awhole lot of people, chess
programming, TV media, sponsorswant to get into chess because
of that.
But recently, the boom of chesscame from Netflix series, the

(49:21):
Queens Gambit.
It changed a lot of things and awhole lot of people want to
learn chess because of that.
Recently, what Queens Gambit didlike a platform like chess.com
got over 100 million subscriberson their platform.
So that's really somethinggreat.

It's a great show.
It's got a compelling story ofcourse, and the actual scenes of
the chess playing you wouldn'tnecessarily imagine would lend
themselves well to being aspectator kind of thing.
But it's really, reallycompelling.
What are your thoughts, on theway that chess is represented in
popular culture?

I mean, uh, it just shows some of the possibilities
that can happen in real life.
the series shows a lady that isjust trying to learn chess and
we practice and it's just morethan a passion for it.
They always say, if you wanna bea good player with chess, you
need to be obsessed with it.
And I believe it applies toeverything in life.
If you want to be great atanything, you have to be

(50:19):
obsessed with it and make sureyou're able to do it well.
It just shows that kind ofpossibility that if we put in
some effort and try to focus onone particular thing we want to
do, we can achieve greatresults.

Yeah, I'm, interested to hear you use the
language of obsession.
I mean, When you were talkingabout your trajectory early on
with chess, it did seem reallyintense and I'm curious about
that obsessive quality.
Where does that come from?

Yes.
I mean, I, I was really obsessedabout chess, but not anymore.
Of course, I still like chess.
I mean, right now I can't devotemuch time to it, but then I
don't mind.
I played chess for 24 hours.
Straightforward.
It was just like, oh, food,okay, we are just eating and we
are just playing, and it wasjust like that food, okay, food
is there and we're just eatingand playing.

(51:06):
That was while I was in uni.
but right now I'm not able to dothat anymore.
I mean I worked with trainersand I was trying to get my
international master title lastyear and I played in two
tournaments and I got some verybad results.
But I still noticed like, okay,working with trainers is not
just enough.
I need to do like the work on myown.

(51:26):
It's more or less like, okay,they're just showing me you need
to go through this part.
It was my first time of reallyworking with trainers and I saw
like, okay, the onus is still onyou to like, make things happen.
If you can't devote the time,you're not going to achieve the
titles.

Well, yeah, I mean, That raises a question for me,
John.
So you, you mentioned before uh,some of the emphasis on chess
education is not necessarilyabout becoming professional
chess player, and it's about thetransferable life skills and,
and the character developmentand I'm curious about balancing
that with obsession.
How much obsession do you needto approach chess and are the

(52:00):
people who are coming to chesseducation coming to it because
they have a obsessive need toexplore it?

Oh, okay.
So for the obsession, I think itonly applies to chess players,
those people that want tocompete.
So you need to be obsessed toeven become a titled player.
You have to be like, really,this is what I want to do.
Because, I later find out afterso many years that not everyone
can get to the top, but you canget to the point where you want

(52:28):
to be in chess.
So it takes a lot of hard workto do that.
it's either you have an ambitionthat you want to become a titled
player, or you're just playingchess for the fun of it.
But for educators, what theeducation part is doing is just
using chess to teach otheraspect of life, most especially
innovation, creativity.

(52:48):
You know, these are what thestudents enjoy from the
educational part of chess.
They are able to think outsidethe box.
So it's not like they'recompeting.
They're just able to just learnchess for the period they're in
school and use that aspect ofchess to do something better for
themselves in future.

You've kind of emphasized the creativity of
chess and I think anyone whorecognizes the creative process
knows that there's a certainkind of obsession that goes into
creating, anything.
And when you pair that with acare for the thing that you are
engaged with, that can producereally powerful things.
You have a prize named afteryou, the John Fawole Chess

(53:29):
Award.
Is that something that youngJohn could have imagined when he
was just starting out?

I wasn't imagining it, it was over a period of time
when I started thinking there'sno way we've been rewarding
chess players because we put inthe efforts, we put in so much
studying, and we have to lookfor a way to recognize those
that are really putting in somuch effort to improve the game.

(53:55):
The more titled players we have,the better for the country
because you're putting thecountry on a good map around the
world.
So that was how we created theaward, which started as an
online award in 2016.
We have a panel of judges thatjust decide who wins an award by
checking the result of aparticular year in review.

(54:16):
They review the categories andcome up with the winners.
We announce the winners and sendthem the plaque.
So we started that way, but it'sgrown into something big right
now because we've had physicalevents in Lagos, and it was, it
was really fun and chess playersembraced it, so because of that,
they look forward to it everyyear, and we are still going to

(54:38):
do it again this year.
It wasn't something I envisioneda very long time ago, but at the
point in time, it was around2015 and 2016, I decided like,
okay, we should have an awardfor chess players.
And I discussed it with myfriends and my team, is it
possible we can do somethinglike this?
And okay, we agree we should doit.

(54:58):
The main thing is, uh, it's alsocalled Nigeria Chess Awards.
Because I started it, I've notbeen able to like, change the
name.
It's still gonna be NigerianChess Award.
but we have the domain nameNigeria Chess Award, dot com.
So we use that as well,including the John Fawole Chess
award.

Yeah.
Nice.
You mentioned earlier on thatyou were working with books and
now there are a lot of softwareoptions for exploring past games
and everything.
How has that evolved and has itchanged the nature of the way
the game is played or peopleapproach it?

Yes.
Yeah, it has changed everythingabout chess, because the use of
artificial intelligence rightnow has upscale things.
Almost everybody is preparingwith their computer right now.
They use engines, they haveAlpha Zero, and they use, uh,
all these kind of engines totrain.
So, it makes it much moreeasier.
The kind of knowledge we have inthose days has really much more

(55:56):
gone up.
We have basic understanding byreading books, but the engines
are finding moves that humancannot find in hours.
And even the top players in theworld prepare using engines
right now.
The last world championship thatMagnos Carlson played, his
challenger said, the technologythat they use in preparing for

(56:17):
the world championship, theyspends$1 million.
Just getting the technology, thecomputers, the softwares, you
know, just to make sure they winthe world championship, you
know?
I mean, engines right now,artificial intelligence has
changed everything about it.

So you mentioned that Garry Kasperov's someone
who you, uh, greatly admired.
And so what was your reactionwhen the AI was able to beat
him?

In those days we read in some books that the IBM
computer beats Garry Kasperov.
Yeah.
So, of course, with computers,it is gonna be difficult because
there are moves that humanscannot see that computer will
calculate in milliseconds, andthat's really difficult.
Even the world champion rightnow, I cannot really say if he
goes into a match with acomputer is going to win the

(57:04):
match.
No, it's gonna be difficult.
So a whole lot of people justuse it to better their chess and
just advance their game.

Looking into it a little bit, the thing that's
really interesting to me aboutit is the computer is making
counterintuitive moves that arelegal, but it's not like
anything that human players areused to seeing.
It's such an old game, and yetthere are all of these different
potential paths that areavailable.
Like, how does that affect theway that people prepare and

(57:30):
think about competing.

Yes.
It is really affected the waypeople prepare right now because
most people do their homework.
You are playing a game and youjust see down there, but your
opponent has analyzed the gamewith the computer.
They know every move you want toplay and you are still 25 moves
deep and you're still playingthe computer moves, they're
playing computer moves.

(57:54):
If you're not well prepared, youjust see that the game is over
in less than 20 moves.
it becomes much more difficultright now to play in chess
tournaments.
You know, I didn't play for awhile and I went to these
tournaments and it was difficultfor me to win a game because
everybody's just so preparedwith the computers.

So you described the game earlier as being
opening game and then the middlegame and the game really sort of
starts in the middle, and that'swhere the strategy is.
Has that changed and how do youknow when you're in the middle
game?

When it comes to shuffling of the pieces, moving
those pieces from one, you aretrying to like use strategy
like, okay, how do I get tothese guys territory?
How do I get space?
So that's when you use strategy.
So you keep planning, oh, shouldI give a pawn up?
Should I make some tactics orsacrifice?

(58:45):
This strategy keeps coming up inthe game like, okay, this is
what I want to achieve.
That happens in the middle game,but even in the end game as
well, you could still have somekind of tactics that come in
just for you to be able to winthe end game.
If a game does not end in theopening, that means it's going
to extend into the middle game.

(59:05):
And if it does not end in themiddle game, it has to end in
the endgame.
So the end game is where we havemost pieces are almost off the
board and now maybe we'replaying with the rooks and the
pawns or the minor pieces likethe knights and bishop, and
you're able to just play the endgame.

Do you think that the AI changes will have any
impact on the patience aspect ofchess that you were talking
about?

I can't really say because to become very good at
chess is just more or less thantraining.
You need to like, be physicallyfit as well.
You need to learn how to controlyour breath.
You need to learn the sittingposition.
So most of the top players rightnow, they go to the gym, they do
a whole lot of exercise.
The world champion right now,Magnus Carlsen, plays badminton,

(59:53):
he plays football, just to makesure they're fit.
They do yoga, they do all thesekind of things.
Just make sure you're notpressured.
Most amateurs don't really careabout that.
They just go to the tournament.
Either you do exercise or not,because there's something we
call sitting power.
When you get to the board, youcan get tired from just exerting

(01:00:13):
your brain and looking for asolution.
But when you are much morephysically fit, you are able to
play better because when yourfit, it affects everything about
your the game.
You are able to like, okay, evenwhen there's fire on the board,
you are able to contain it andyou're not pressured.
You are just able to like, okay,this is happening, but you are

(01:00:34):
able to, still play regardlessof it and look for good solution
on the board.

Danu Poyner (01:00:38):
I'm curious about your computer science
trajectory, because that wassomething that was a big part of
your plans early on, and you'vekept going with that, and you
have experience in businessanalysis and project management,
and of course you've got the thebusiness degree.
How has that story beendeveloping alongside the chess

(01:00:58):
work for you?

John Fawole (01:01:00):
I was doing like a post-graduate before leaving
Nigeria.
It has to do it with informationtechnology.
But moving to the US I needed tojust let that go because there
were no online opportunities tocontinue to study, so I had to
let go.
But getting to the US and thepandemic happened, of course,
I've been thinking of studyingmore and doing my master's

(01:01:22):
degree and everything.
Just because a whole lot ofthings then were happening, most
especially with BruvChess, Istarted thinking of how we can
do some things.
I mean, we've not gottenBruvChess to where we want it to
be, but then we need to startsomething.
So I look at like, okay, why nottry to get like a business
degree, but for computerscience, I really want to take
it to a very nice level whereI'm able to just do something in

(01:01:45):
computer science, but I pickedup the interest in business and
I said, okay, let's have this asjust bachelor's degree.
Then we can now do some otherthings in, the business world,
and that's how I changeeverything about computer
science and then businessbecause now computer science is
really broad, informationaltechnology is broad, And this is
where we are.

Yeah, that makes sense.
I'm always really interested inhow people's experience and
learning in one area of life andknowledge can be synthesized
into other things that they'redoing elsewhere.
Does your experience in businesshelp you in chess and does chess
help you in business?

Yes, it is.
It does, it does.
If you've made a mistake before,you don't want to do that
mistake again.
So it means that you need tolike research and find out,
okay, this is what I need to do.
I don't wanna do this again.
It comes to real life as well inbusiness.
If you do something before thatfailed and you're now looking
for a strategy to make sure youget it right, if you need to do

(01:02:44):
the same thing again, unless youwant to drop it.
If I'm playing a chess openingand the opening is not bringing
results, maybe every time Iplay, I lose the game.
That means I need to change mystyle.
Like, okay, I'm dropping thisopening, I need to adopt another
opening that is gonna bring methe desired results.
I'm able to apply the same thinginto business so all these ideas

(01:03:05):
can keep coming, like, okay,which one should I do?
But you need to think themthrough and look at it like,
okay, what is this that you'retrying to achieve at the end of
the day?
So we don't want to like, okay,just jump into it halfway and
you're now stuck and you'rebacking down.

What are focusing on at the moment?

Yeah, I mean, I'm doing a couple of things at the
moment, but I think my focuspresently is gonna be in
business analysis.
I try to like, do some things ininstructional design.
I was designing need analysis,you know, I designed one for
chess, but I did some othercouple of ones during my
studies, but then I just look atlike, okay, I want to focus on

(01:03:45):
business analysis.

do you have something that you are working
towards in there or is itsomething that you're exploring
and and not sure yet?

I'm sure of what I want to do, but I need to gain
some more experience and acquiresome more skills.
But I think as far as businessanalysis is concerned right now,
I'm ready to dive in, uh, like,maybe possibly get a job in
business analysis I mean, as abusiness analyst and do the
things I enjoy, doing becausewhat I notice about it is, it

(01:04:15):
has to do with everydaycommunication and you're trying
to solve problems, which issomething I do over the board
all the time.

are you in the, the middle game of life at the
moment?

Yeah.
Yeah.
Somewhere close to the middlegame of life.
Yeah.

Something I always ask, uh, everyone who comes on
the the podcast, John, is if youcould gift someone a life
changing learning experience,what would it be and why?

That's a very interesting question, and I'm
just going to tell the personthey should do what they love
because it's only when you dowhat you love that you are able
to commit to it.
You are happy about it, you havepassion for it.
And you don't see it like ajoke.

(01:05:02):
It's just like a normal part ofyou.
So it is just like me.
If you tell me, okay, I shoulddo everything chess.
I'm able to do everything chessbecause I love it naturally.
So just do what you love and youare able to just achieve things
you want to achieve in life.

Yeah.
Thank you.
And then that love has a way ofspilling over into other things
that you do as well and makeseverything better.
it's been a really, greatpleasure talking to you, John,
and spending a little time inyour world.
Uh, I've learned a lot.
Is there something that youwanted to talk about that we
didn't get a chance to cover?

None at the moment.
I can't think of anyone.

That's okay.
We've been talking a good while.
I wanna thank you for yourgenerosity in sharing your
stories and your experience,yeah, I really look forward to
seeing how your journey,develops, John, and, and maybe
we'll see you be grandmaster oneday.

Yeah, most likely Thank you so much.

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Sitting Power: why the won game is the easiest to lose - John Fawole | S3E3

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Sitting Power: why the won game is the easiest to lose - John Fawole | S3E3