Unlocking the power of purposeful play - Trudi Boatwright | S3E7 - Still Curious

Episode Transcript
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Trudi Boatwright (00:00):
I avoided using the word, play, for years.

(00:03):
Cuz nobody takes play seriously.
You say creativity and peoplerevere it and you say play and
people dismiss it.
People said, what do you do?
And I'd say, oh, I'm a, um,well, I met, uh, got the arts
and, and I'm, and experientialand it's communication.
I got to a point where I wasexhausted I just didn't have the

(00:23):
energy to bullshit.
And I said to someone, I teachpeople how to play, and they
went, oh yeah, I like it.
And I thought, all these yearsI've been trying to wrap this up
as something else, but actuallythis is what I do.

Danu Poyner (00:42):
You're listening to these still curious podcast with
me, Daniel pointer.
My guest today is TrudyBoatwright and experiential
designer, facilitator andcreative, who specializes in
plate.
Trudy supports organizations ininnovation, communication and
team building through her rarecombination of experiential
learning applied in designthinking and play theory with

(01:05):
workshops, programs, andjourneys that are unique,
effective, and an awful lot offun.
Trudy's journey has beenparticularly squiggly even by
the standards of this podcastwith a total of 48 different
jobs ranging from working in abikey bar to selling insurance.
On the other hand, Trudy is alsoone of my very rare podcasts

(01:26):
guests who not only had a clearplan, a but also achieved it.
It just, isn't what she's doingnow.
She began her journey in acting driven by a
deep curiosity about people andhow we behave.
She describes being an artspractitioner in Australia is
chronically underfunded artsector.
As a life choice.
Where you always need to haveanother form of income because

(01:49):
it's simply too hard to sustainyourself on your arts practice
alone.
This is what people call their Broll, which explains many of
those 48 jobs.
But Trudy's plan a was.
Well, trust me, it sounds betterwhen she tells it.

I was that little girl who said, when I
grow up, I want to be an actorand I want to perform on the
West end.
And, language warning.
Then I fucking did it.
We created this incredibletheater company, and we were
moving and shaking in the Londontheater scene, and it was
glorious.
And then just after thathappened, I have, what I like to
call my etch-a-sketch moment.

(02:25):
Where life went, actually, youknow what?
You will start again.
Right?
Let's just say, I couldn't stayin the UK anymore.
I lost all my money.
I lost my marriage, everything.
Life just went, actually, youknow what?
Start again.
So I did,

back in Australia, Trudy was trying to make a go of
things and started an immersivetheater company in Melbourne.
A turning point, came with aroll at the Starlight children's
hospital as a captain Starlight,where she used play and
storytelling to bring joy andlaughter to seriously ill
children and offer positivedisruption from the stresses of

(02:58):
medical treatment.
This experience made clear toTrudy the power of purposeful
play.
And she went on to study, playtherapy, learning how to use
play to help individuals,process emotions, and
experiences.
One of Trudy's most memorableexperiences was working in a
women's prison where she usedplay to help incarcerated women

(03:19):
prepare for job interviews.
Realizing there was much thatthe business world could learn
from the arts.
Trudy began to consciouslyintegrate her arts and business
practice gradually transitioninginto the corporate world, using
her knowledge of play, to helporganizations innovate and
communicate more effectively andcreate more connected and

(03:40):
empathetic workplaces.

It will be no surprise for those that were
following along it is reallyinterweaving all of my skills
and all of the things that Ihave been doing and that I love
for over 20 years.
I never thought they would allcome together, but miraculously
they have and I think everybodyaround me has been waiting and
is nodding and saying, oh,finally she's made it all make
sense.
Thank goodness we've beenwaiting such a long time.

Despite the twists and turns, Judy's curiosity
about people and her passion forplay have formed a red thread
that runs throughout.
She lights up most when helpingpeople connect with their play
personalities, knowing that therichness of human experience
means no two people play thesame.

My most favorite part of the work that I
do, is unlocking this feelingof, woo, being in a new space
that feels slightly out of yourcomfort zone and fun and
exciting and possible.
I love seeing people just let goand just be them, that's when
all the beautiful stuff comesout, when you just stop
censoring yourself.

This was a delightful and indeed playful
conversation childlike whilediscussing topics that are far
from child ish.
I'm so excited to share it withyou.
Not least, because to mepersonally, it encapsulates why
I do this show and what being.
Uh, Grokker test is all about.

For those of us who don't fit into a box,
it's a very confusing journeybecause you're always sort of
wafting around, not really surehow you express what it is that
you do I was so excited to sitdown and talk with you today
because it made me feel like Imade sense.
there's something reallywonderful about knowing that
there is a tribe of people whoall feel the same way and that

(05:24):
it's starting to be appreciated.
So, on behalf of all thegrokkists, thank you very much.

Enjoy.
It's my conversation with Trudybode, right?
Coming up after the music ontoday's episode of the still
curious podcast.

(06:03):
Hi, Trudi, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you?

I am very well.
Thank you for having me thisafternoon.

Oh, you're very welcome.
I've been looking forward tothis.
Normally I, I do an intro andrattle off the well packaged
version of themselves thatpeople have, but I thought,
given you're a professional playspecialist, we should maybe try
something a bit more playful.
What do you think?

I think that's a great idea and I was thinking,
because I advocate for tryingnew things, given our
conversation today, why don't wetry something new and let's talk
about our varied lives together.
So I thought I might start withmaking a statement about my
working life and then you make astatement about your life that
has some kind of associationwith it.
Doesn't matter if it's a roughassociation, but shall we play
something like that to startwith?

Let's see how it goes.
I'm very interested to see whathappens.

Okay.
This could go anywhere.
This could be the wildestintroduction ever.
Okay.
I left school as the high schoolschool captain.

Oh, well, I definitely did not, I dropped
out of school.

Uh, I dropped out of, Ooh, ooh.
I dropped out of a course thatwas on chocolate making.

Chocolate making, I haven't done anything as
interesting as that, but I did aThai cooking course.
That's the closest I've done tomaking any food.

Hmm.
I once worked at a five starrestaurant, which was renowned
for its food in Canada, theChateau Lake Louise.

Amazing.
I feel like I'm taking theopposite again, I once worked in
a restaurant for three hours andthen quit.

I once worked in a factory for an hour and a
half.

Okay, well,

on, uh, on, on detergent things.

wow.
Uh, I delivered pizzas for likean afternoon and quit that as
well.

Ooh, that's good.
I have not delivered pizzas, butI got fired from my only job.
I highly believe that everyoneshould get fired at least once.
And that was because I organizeda conference for an IT company
where they were gonna eat pizza,but the conference venue was
below ground where there was nointernet access.

Oh, okay.
I wanna ask about the firing,but we won't do that.
I was politely asked to leavefrom my job at the tax office
because I wasn't taking itseriously enough.

Um, we once got stormed by the tax office
when I was doing some horrifictelesales about some kind of
home insurance company orsomething, and the fraud squad
arrived.

Oh, amazing.
I had a telesales job for alittle while, trying to get
appointments for people sosalespeople could sell Apple
computers to them, and thenthat's how I ended up doing
Apple stuff.

How are we going?
Do we know a bit about eachother?

I think that's probably more than I've shared
with many people I know verywell.
So, I guess that's working quitewell.
What do you think?

And that my friend is play.
We are now connected.
We know random things about eachother, and we are only a couple
of minutes into the podcast.

Amazing.
Well, I feel like all of thosedisclosures could quite easily
derail the whole conversation.
I do wanna ask about the puttinglids on the detergent.
How did that come about?
What is that?

Do you know what, I used to be really hidden
and secretive about this.
But because a lot of my careerhas been in the arts, a lot of
actors always have a b roll.
And when I've added up my jobs,I've had 48 different types of
jobs.
And the only one that I'vewalked away from was I got a job
at like a pharmaceuticalfactory.
And I spent the morning screwinglids on something and it was the

(09:14):
only job that I was like, Icannot do this.
I just can't do it.
So I just walked away and I rangthe company and I said, I'm
sorry.
Anything, anything but this.
I was awful at it as well.

How interesting.
But the telesales was okay.

Uh, yes, I've done more than my fair share of
telesales, and I've had someincredibly interesting jobs
right across my life.
So it's given me a wealth ofexperience and random stories.

Well, I'm very keen to hear about the random
stories.
You've mentioned 48, so how manyof those can you rattle off
like, uh, five or six of them?

I'll give you some of my most random, I've run
chocolate making workshops.
I worked in a really high endmedical agency on Harley Street
in the UK.
I've worked in a bikey bar, likea bar that was a Bikey Gangs
bar.
I've done telesales, definitely.
I've sold everything left,right, and center.
I've worked in makingpromotional material.
I've done insurance.
I've done all the boring ones aswell.

(10:07):
I've once had a job where I justhad to get rid of checks.
You know, at banks when a checkhas been cashed, they have to
crunch all the checks.

We could easily turn this into a whole
conversation about weird jobsthat do or don't exist anymore,
and play a game about which oneswe think are real.
But what I think I'm gonna do isdo your proper intro now, so
that we have some gravitas foryou as a guest.
Okay.
So you're an experientialdesigner, facilitator, and

(10:33):
creative who specializes inplay.
You have a rare combination ofexperiential learning, applied
improvisation, design thinking,and play theory, which you use
to support organizations ininnovation, communication, and
team building by ensuring yourworkshops, programs, or journeys
are unique, effective, and anawful lot of fun.

(10:54):
What would you say is the mostimportant thing for someone to
understand about what you do?

I think the most important thing is that I
don't play for play's sake.
There is always a purpose and areason behind what I do.
And it is that combination thatI bring to every interaction
that I have with either peopleor organizations.

Yeah, that's a very interesting answer.
I've noticed you're very carefulin your talks and things to make
a distinction between beingplayful and playing, which I've
heard you talk about as thedifference between being
childlike and being childish.
Do I have that right?

Yes, absolutely.
And I'm really passionate aboutit.
There is such a societalconnotation that comes with the
word play.
There is nothing wrong witheither version of playing or
playful but I really want todistinguish, particularly when I
am using it in a work sense,that playing is this beautiful
thing that we all do, thisexquisite thing where it's

(11:53):
really just play for play'ssake.
It's this lovely, beautifulthing that we all take part of
in our lives.
It's a richness, a rich tapestryin our lives.
But being playful, it can have apurpose.
You can have a purpose withbeing playful.
You don't have to be immaturewhen you are playful.
It can have some very seriousmeanings.
I've played in some very highstake situations and that is

(12:15):
really the difference.
There is something reallyinnocent about playing, about
being childish.
Often when you watch childrenplay, they're in this sort of
space.
They go with the flow.
They have this real innocence tothem.
But I think being childlikeactually has quite a mindful
quality to it.
Where you are really aware ofwhere you are and what you're

(12:35):
doing and the people that you'reinvolved with.
Playful is a mindset.
I always say to people, you havea playful mindset, so there's a
purpose and there's anawareness.
Whereas playing can often bethat sort of beautiful,
frivolous joy that comes fromchildren.

What would you say is the purpose of a playful
mindset?

When you break it down and you look at the
elements of having a playfulmindset, it is really key human
qualities and human traits.
That is that curiosity thatcomes with a playful mindset.
That is that awareness thatcomes with it, the connection to
somebody else.
Because it is actually a primalbehavior in us.

(13:16):
So it addresses primal needs inus, which is what the world,
particularly at the moment isreally striving for.
That connection, that awareness,all of the things that the
organizations talk about cancome from that playful mindset.
Even if you look back on reallyancient wisdom.
I went to this talk of thisrevered Buddhist monk in Italy

(13:36):
and he was just this playful,jovial man who made jokes about
funny things.
And he was full of that playfulenergy.

I feel like it's a lot easier to be open to
considering other possibilitiesor having your mind changed or
making connections, as you say,when you play, if only because
it's disarming your normalguardedness that you enter into
situations with.
The disarming nature ofplayfulness.

If you look at what everybody's, particularly
in organizations at the moment,everybody's talking about things
like, how do I keep thingspsychologically safe?
How do I make my people connect?
How do I retain them and keepthem engaged in what I'm doing?
All of those elements are verypresent when you're playing.
You can't play if you don't feelsafe, you just can't, and it is

(14:27):
the immediate connector.
That's how we relate to eachother as human beings.
And if you are having a goodtime, of course you're gonna
stay where you are.
So it hits that point as well.
Once again, children are likelittle Buddhas.
They just keep questioning why,why, why, why.
It's a nice way to safelyexplore where your boundaries

(14:47):
are.

And speaking of boundaries, there's a phrase
from game design that resonateswith me a lot, which is,
'possibility space'.
In game design it meanseverything that can possibly
happen within the rules of thegame, but I think it connects
very nicely to the ideas of playand curiosity because when you
are able to be disarmed and putaside your social armor and be

(15:10):
more open, then you can expandyour possibility space.
And I think that's one of themain benefits.

Absolutely.
One of my key and probably mylongest influence in all of this
is a woman called Viola Spolin.
She is like the coolest, coolestwoman, and she created theater
games.
She actually started from, NevaBoyd, who was a child
psychologist and then, ViolaSpolin.
She's considered the grandmotherof improvisation, and she

(15:36):
actually developed theseimprovisational games for newly
arrived migrants to the USactually.
She believed that anybody coulduse these games to create
theater, to create stories, toplay.
And her theory, which underpinseverything I do, is this solving
a problem with a problem, butalso this idea of the approval

(15:56):
disapproval space.
We very much work in a spacewhere, even from when we're
little, we seek for thatapproval of our moms, our dads,
our school friends, ourteachers.
And then that just continues on.
We want the approval of ourpartner and our friends and we
get so good at seeking approvalthat we sort of catch ourselves.
We sort of stop ourselves beforeanything comes out that we think
might be disapproved of.

(16:17):
And when you create a game, yougive yourself those borders so
you feel safe in that spacewhere you are free to create and
you are free of that approvaldisapproval syndrome because you
are grounded by the rules of thegame and that's why it's so
powerful.
So yes, absolutely.

Well, we're in furious agreement, I think.
My question I guess is, doeseveryone play?

Yes, everybody can play.
We are very good as we get moreadult to squash that side of us,
but it's in there.
It's born in us.
It's primal.
All animals know how to play it.
It's pre-verbal.
We all have the ability to play.
It's what makes us humans.
We are the only species withimagination, and that's the

(16:58):
difference for us, but thelarger the brain in the mammal,
the more they play.
It's how we learn.
If you watch a baby trying towalk, it doesn't stand up, reach
for something, fall over andthen assess why that happened.
It does it in a game.
It's our natural way of learningthings.
So we all have it in us.

I've heard you say people have play personalities
and that no one plays the samethough, so I'm curious to hear
more about what you mean bythat.

Yeah.
This is the beautiful thing.
I'm a huge lover of thecomplexity of humans.
We are just so divinely complex.
I love that about human beings.
What I find is that nobody playsthe same, right?
Everybody has things that willmake each other tick
differently, and everyone hasthings that they will enjoy that
will put them in what they calllike a play state.
Dr.

(17:47):
Stewart Brown, who's one of theleading scientists in the world
of play, he identified thatthere's eight rough play
personalities.
You'll have a variety, butyou'll essentially lean to one
or the other.
So it may be that you are acompetitor.
You may like that competitivething.
And when you are challengingsomeone and you are swimming
hard against someone orwhatever, it gives you that play

(18:07):
state.
You may be an artist, you mayfind that state of flow from
painting or drawing, whatever itis.
And it's something to be awareof when you are designing or
working with someone or a groupof people, how you tap into the
things that are going to workfor them, how you spark the
things that work for them.
Having said that, there's a lotof things that are just innately

(18:29):
human in us that we all enjoy.
There is a gentleman, ScottAberle, and he breaks down the
six elements of play.
And that's, poise and strengthand anticipation.
Anticipation is one of myfavorites because as humans we
all have that thing aboutanticipation.
We all have that thing aboutsurprise.
And that's a common thread inhuman beings.

(18:52):
And sometimes I find in my work,I will occasionally get a little
bit rattled and think, oh gosh,I can't go in there and do this
with IT leaders or transportworkers, and often people will
say to me, oh no, I don't play.
I don't do play.
But they're usually the peoplethat at the end of the day
engaged and sweating and talkingnonstop and you've reignited

(19:15):
something in them.

You mentioned examples of high stakes play
before.
What's an example of high stakesplay that you've been involved
in?

So, there's some variety of high stakes
play.
One of my most favorite jobsthat I did was I went into the
women's prison, both Taran Galland Dame Phyllis, I think the
two women's prisons.
It was for a project for women.
It was a great program, run byFitted for work, and these are
women who'd signed up.
They wanted to change theirlife, and it's really, really

(19:44):
difficult for them because theodds are stacked against them.
They're in prison.
There's a huge number ofdomestic violence in women's
prisons.
So to break outta that system isreally difficult.
And they were nervous about,doing job interviews because of
their past.
The tricky thing is too, theydon't want to reveal really what
they're in prison for.
There's a lot of keeping thingsclose to their chest.

(20:06):
I took an actor in and, insteadof running mock job interviews,
we flipped it around and we madethem a board and they
interviewed the actor and itgave them this lovely sense of
freedom to be able to askquestions for the actor.
Like, oh what would she say ifshe'd was in here, how would she
respond?
What I didn't expect is to seehow empowered they felt because

(20:28):
they're in a system where theydon't often feel a lot of power.
Similarly, at the children'shospital, we would be playing
games in really high stakesituations with some really
seriously ill children.
And it's exactly what wasneeded.
If you look at the way that youuse play in these situations,
you can definitely have a huge,huge impact.

I've been doing a bit of stuff with narrative
coaching lately, which is allabout seeing people's stories
and then the promise is, see thestory, change the story because
you can step into it andparticipate in it and move
around in a different way.
And that gives you agency in away that people don't always
have when they just tell theirstory.

(21:11):
So that was a very clearparallel to me with the example
you just gave.
It's really powerful stuff.

Yes.
And it is, this work can beincredibly powerful.
I'm very passionate, as you say,to step into.
I would also physically askpeople to step into, I did a
wonderful workshop the other daywhere I got everybody to
literally walk as one person inthe room.
So that person walked up anddown and then everybody walked
as them, and then the personstepped out and watched eight or

(21:38):
nine people walking asthemselves.
And it was this incrediblemoment for them.
And the people literally steppedinto this person's shoes,
suddenly understood so muchmore, sort of saying, oh, you
must, you know, very strongshoulders.
And it was just this incrediblemoment occurred through just
simply playing.

I feel like I'm still playing the association
game cuz that story is remindingme of when I was at high school
and I was in a class and peoplewould make fun of my walk a lot.
I had a really up and down sortof walk and these kids would
mock me and follow behind me andimitate my walk and that wasn't
fun.
So the context in which thathappens is really important.

(22:18):
So does the play come before thepsychological safety or does the
psychological safety come first,or does one create the other?

Ah, ooh, you've hit on a little passion
button of mine.
As you said, we grow up and weget confined, and that includes
play, right?
You cannot step into a room and,you know, woo.
We are here to play guys.
It's never, ever, ever going towork.

(22:49):
There is a very subtle processand a very important process, a
vital process that has to happento get people into a
psychologically safe space sothey can do that with each
other.
I would never, ever start aworkshop off like that.
I would make sure that we haveall built trust together first.
We all feel safe enough so thatsomething like that didn't

(23:09):
happen.
There is an art form to this,and the art form is that people
need to be slowly led.
You need to dust off.
You can't just dive into thesethings because you have to make
sure that you are one unit, asafe unit before.
I call it the boiling frog.

So how do you boil the frog if you are starting
cold.
How do you start cold with agroup of guarded or default
hostile people.

My favorite challenge.
I don't wanna give away all mysecrets, but it's gotta be a
really slow burn, right?
My other passion point, you'retouching on all of them one by
one is, um, the mind bodyconnection, right?
Physically, we completelyunderestimate the power of our
bodies and the way our minds andbodies work together.

(23:55):
We all know we go, oh, 70 to 90%of how we communicate is
nonverbal, and now we're goingto learn something.
So everybody sit down and don'tmove your body, which makes no
sense to me, If 70 to 90% of ourcommunication is nonverbal, why
isn't 70 to 90% of our learning?
Now, our bodies have memory.
Our bodies hold and storethings.

(24:17):
Our bodies send messages to ourbrain about how we are feeling
about something.
So to me, the key to unlockingand getting people into that
play state is just by slowlygetting your body involved.
And it may be the smallestthing, right?
It may be a little game withyour hands.
Because I really articulatebeing comfortable with failure

(24:40):
and trying new things and beingbrave enough.
I ask people to be brave.
So I have made a promise tomyself that I must also be
brave.
I must also try at least one newthing in every single workshop
or presentation or keynote thatI do, because I'm asking that of
people.
I must walk my talk.

(25:00):
I've got a little lineup ofgames that I wanna try and one
of them is I wanna play musicand just have you dance but just
one little body part.
So it might just be like yourlittle pinky and just dance with
your little pinky or just onelittle tiny thing.
And then once the body starts toget involved, the mind will
follow.
And that's for me, one of thekey little ingredients to
unlocking even the most hostile.

(25:22):
I've been at a conference allday.
I'm often booked as the postlunch speaker, which everybody
shudders about, but I like thechallenge.

I can hear the passion for these points that
we're talking.
When did you first start to takeplay seriously?
Cause the play specialist isnot, I imagine the kind of thing
that occurs to anyone to betheir plan A.

No, um, how did you get here?
This question made me smile.
I was like, Hmm.
How did I get here?
Ooh.
Like most things, the bestlessons in life often burst from
challenge.
My mother has this incrediblesaying, and I live my life by
it, whenever something goeswrong, she always says a diamond

(26:03):
is just a rock until it's hadthe shit pummeled out of it,
right?
But it's kind of true.
Usually out of tragedy comessome epiphany.
So I avoided using the word,play, for years.
Cuz nobody takes play seriously.
I got to a point where I wasexhausted and I just didn't have

(26:23):
the energy to bullshit.
And I said to someone, I teachpeople how to play, and they
went, oh yeah, I like it.
And I thought, all these yearsI've been trying to uh, wrap
this up as something else, butactually this is what I do.

This is quite a recent thing then.

Yes.
Yes, it is.
The playing is not recent.
The pulling off my cloak toreveal myself as a play person
is.

Okay.
I want to hear more about that.
Take me all the way back though,because you've got a very
interesting, I like to saysquiggly career.
What was plan A?
Did you have a plan A?

Um, do you know I am one of those freaky
people who got my plan A,

Yes, there is one.
Like the second person on here.

Well, I'm gonna break people's bubbles
today cuz I was that little girlwho said, when I grow up, I want
to be an actor and I want toperform on the West end.
And, language warning.
Then I fucking did it.
And you know what happens whenyou get your dreams, then what?

Yeah.

I've had this random life.
I went to London.
I had the most incredible time.
I met the most wonderful people.
We created this incredibletheater company, and we were
moving and shaking in the Londontheater scene, and it was
glorious.
And I was in this play on theWest End.
It was the Soho Theater.
It was only little, and it wasonly a little run, but there was
something in it that, to me, Ihad achieved.

(27:54):
And then just after thathappened, I have, what I like to
call my etch-a-sketch moment.
So I had this little moment inmy life where life went,
actually, you know what?
You will start again.
Right?
Let's just say, I couldn't stayin the UK anymore.
I lost all my money.
I lost my marriage, everything.
Life just went, actually, youknow what?
Start again.
So I did, I started again.

Okay.
Let me come back to the Plan A,because, how did you know you
wanted to be an actor on theWest End?
Tell me more about that.

I think that's a family thing.
I don't really know.
It was just in me since I was alittle girl.
I actually wanted to become afamous actress, and I wanted to
go out and get between a harpoonand a whale.
And if they killed me, therewould be outrage around the
world and the whales would besaved.
And if they didn't, I couldreport back and the whales would
be saved.

Okay.

there's always been a balance for me between
arts and humanities, which Ithink is my background.
My grandfather was one ofAustralia's leading entertainers
of his time.
He wrote Australia's first radiojingle.
He was a radio star.
And my uncle is, uh,post-production sound.
My mom's a writer.
My uncle is actually the voiceof Skippy, he was the sound guy,
so it was in the family.

(29:04):
As I grew up and as I workedthrough my career as an actor, I
realized that I got into actingbecause of this deep curiosity
for how humans behave and howhumans work.

Have you figured it out yet?
How people work?

Hope I never do.
I hope none of us ever do.
Please let nobody find theanswer to human beings cuz we
are gloriously mysterious.

yeah, it's like people are the same wherever you
go in time and space, but alsoevery person is unrepeatably
different.
That's what I like about thatproblem.
yeah, yeah,

Yes.
And I think I learned that veryyoung.
I was blessed with some reallyunique experiences when I was a
young girl.
I was working in a bikey bar inSydney when I was just 18.
I was sort of there in that endof town.
And then I went traveling anddid my backpacking thing to
Canada where I was suddenlyserving Lyndon Johnson's, of the
president, whatever you say, andit taught me that humans are the

(30:02):
same no matter where we are, weare all the same.

This is the second time you've mentioned the Bikey
bar, so I wanna hear a bit morecontext.

If you look at what I do, it's a very random
combination and I do think itcomes back to this sense of
curiosity about humans.
And I would work the bar and Iwas very highly respected, but
then other women would come inthat were very badly treated.
And I would say to the head guylike, why is that?
And I learned there is a realsort of culture within a culture

(30:33):
there, within the world ofbikeys that is very respectful
in some ways.
It was a really eye-openingexperience for me as a young
woman to understand that life iscomplex and very gray.
It is not black and white.
I had these experiences when Iwas young, and I think that sort
of gave me the bug to go on andcontinue to experience life and

(30:55):
take what I can from thatexperience and then use it to
help people find their ownabilities and skills and
passions and really appreciatethemselves for who they are.

I'm really struck by the way that you are very
intentional about pursuing yourcuriosity.
You're kind of willing to gowherever it goes, but also
there's a selecting qualitythere.
You mentioned that thatexperience that we just talked
about clarified for you thatlife is very gray, and then you
wanted to find out more aboutthat in the world.

(31:32):
Where has that taken you, thatcuriosity, that's most surprised
you?

A lot of my twists and turns have been
surprising and, externally,somewhat confusing for people
who live a life of socialnormity.
I think at one point when Imoved back from London after I'd
hit my plan A, I came back toSydney and life just wasn't
working for me.

(31:58):
Everywhere I turned its doorsjust weren't opening.
So, I thought, okay, I reallyneed to get myself way outta my
comfort zone.
So the best thing to do is to gosomewhere where you don't know
anyone and then you will have tomake drastic changes.
So I threw everything I ownedinto my car and everything I
owned was like a carload fulland like$400, and I drove down

(32:19):
to Melbourne.
And that's probably aninteresting turn of events that
I didn't expect that thatcuriosity led to.
One of the reasons why I becamean actor is that, I'm also very
passionate.
You go and see a performance andyou see an actor on stage who
steps through the steps andknows their lines and that's
great.
But what you don't understand isall of the work that happens in

(32:40):
a rehearsal room.
And that work also involves agreat deal of research into who
this person is.
You will play someone who's anetymologist, and then you will
dive into the world ofetymology, or you will play a
firefighter and suddenly youknow all of these things about
firefighting and you immerseyourself in those people, in
those characters., andconversely, I have spent many

(33:02):
years role-playing and I stilldo.
I still write scenarios and workin the world of role play.
That's what actually introducedme to experiential learning.
That was the door for me of howpowerful that can be.
And once again, you've gottalearn about a whole work
culture, whole organization.
It's that that's really drivenme in these random directions in
my life.

(33:24):
And boy, I've done some randomthings.
I was telling my partneryesterday, thinking about an
acting job that I had.
It was for a commercial in theuk and it was called, uh, Get
Yourself an Extra Hundred Megs.
And there were a hundred MegRyan lookalikes, and we were in
a cafe and these boys were gonnacome and sit opposite us.
They didn't know what was gonnahappen, but we were all going to

(33:46):
start from one to a hundred, andit was gonna be like this ripple
effect.
We were all gonna do that fakeorgasm scene from When Harry Met
Sally and you had to get ratedon your fake orgasm.
And I got rated number five outof a hundred.
I was pretty impressed with myfake orgasm.

good.

But it was just this random moment where
you're sitting in a room full ofwomen you don't know, opposite a
man you don't know, and you haveto count the orgasm sounds and
then when you're ready, launchinto this.

Yeah.
I feel like we're not gonna topthat as far as most random goes.
I think that's it, isn't it?

Right.
Not many people have had theopportunity.

Okay.
Let's not skip over the amazingfact that you achieved your
self-declared plan A of being anactor on the west end, and
enjoyed some success with that.
What was that like?

Well, inevitably humans, we are really
great at thinking what we wantis what we want, but it actually
is nothing like we want.
The highlight for me being inthe UK is creating this
incredible short play festival.
It was a really exciting,exhausting, wonderful time.
where we launched it, and I'llnever forget the day, we'd put a

(34:54):
lot of time and a lot of effortinto starting this up.
And I was sitting at work, I wasworking for a sales company in
the uk and I was sitting at mydesk and I put my head down on
the desk and I thought, this istoo much work.
We're never gonna get thisacross the line.
And my mobile phone rang and Ipicked it up, and it was this
woman, she said, oh, you know,hi, I am Heather.
I'm Helen Mirren's, pa.

(35:15):
And I said, oh, um, yes, hello?
And she said, yes, we got yourinformation about Helen Mirren
joining your panel cuz we had apanel of celebrities.
She said she can't make thepanel but she just wanted me to
ring you and to tell you shethinks what you're doing is a
remarkable idea.
And I said, thank you so much.
Do you think she would give us aquote for our marketing?
And she said, I know she will.

(35:36):
I'll get back to you with itshortly.
And I put down the phone and Ithought, ah, I can do this.
So that was actually thehighlight in the middle of that
was when I did this play on thewest end and got it.
I did it, I achieved my goal,but it didn't feel anything like
the magic I thought it would cuzit was shrouded in the real

(35:56):
stuff around the edges.

Thank you for sharing that story.
Let's complete the story andbring us up to the pandemic.
So you've finished up in the UKand come back to Sydney.
You've put your stuff in the carand you've driven down to
Melbourne.
What happens from there?

Um, I land a role at the Royal Children's
Hospital as a Captain Starlightand that was sort 12, 13 years
ago now that I landed inMelbourne.
I started up an immersivetheater company, which is still
going, in fact, watch this spacearound that.
There's some exciting thingshappening there.
And it was at the children'sHospital that I really started
to understand the power of play.

(36:33):
And it was as a CaptainStarlight, that I really
understood how it is playful,not playing.
And that was really the turningpoint towards what I'm doing
now.
I was there for five years andit really gave me a grounding
and an understanding of how touse play for a purpose, and the
power that it can have and thefeelings that can be generated
from a playful activity.

I'd be really interested to hear a little bit
more about that role.
I can sense that that's a veryimportant turning point and also
what's at stake in that kind ofplayful situation.
Would you like to talk a bitmore about what the role of
Captain Starlight is?

Yeah.
So, for anyone who donatesanyone who supports the
Starlight Foundation, yoursupport is invaluable because
their work is amazing.
And Starlight Captains, we arein the Children's Hospital.
There are Starlight Expressrooms that have arts and crafts
and all sorts of things forchildren to come and do.
And then Starlight Captains alsovisit children's wards and we
travel around, similar to clowndoctors, but different, a lot of

(37:30):
respect for the clown doctors.
They're awesome, they'reamazing.
But a similar vibe.
Captain Starlight comes fromanother planet.
And the idea is to create thispositive disruption.
So it's all about creating thatmoment.
And yes, it is for the childrenwho are in the hospital.
It is for the siblings who arein the hospital system.
But I also felt like it wasvital for the parents.

(37:52):
But, what I started to find was,there was some great things that
came about once again, justthrough playing.
I used to have something calledBreak the Rules Sunday, where we
used to get the train toCheekyville, not the bus to
Naughty Town, right.
And often it would be justthings I had to do, I might have
to rip up cardboard because Ihad to take it to the recycling.
So I'd make a game of it.

(38:13):
And all the kids, we'd have ademolition party where we'd like
tear up cardboard.
and, for the children who are inthere, if you are in the
hospital system, you don't everhave a chance to feel naughty.
You can't feel naughty becauseyou have to abide by rules and
medical procedures.
So there was this little senseof feeling that was wonderful.
I used to have a thing called abag of shit prizes, and they

(38:34):
were just things that we'd wannaget rid of.
I used to wrap them up.
Kids used to come running forthis bag of shit prizes.
They'd just want a shit prize.

What was the shittest price in the bag?.

Oh I would do things like, I would take like
one egg carton or just a randomhalf a pencil, shitty things.
it was those little things thatI started to realize were more
than just playing, to empowersomeone, to help someone learn.
We always had great respect forthe hospital staff, that their
job was their job.

(39:05):
But sometimes a physio wouldalso use us.
We would create a game to help achild's stretch for something so
that they would do their physio.
There were all of these waysthat children in isolation, we
couldn't see them, but they hada window.
So you'd go and hide things inthe bushes so that they had
something to do through thewindow.
And of course that would getthem looking outside.
Cuz it's a hospital system, youhave to be very careful of
germs, you know, hugging andstuff, it's difficult to do.

(39:27):
So we would often change a huginto a high five.
And this one little guy, he cameto give me a hug and I turned it
into a high five.
And he said, captain, what areyou doing?
And quickly on my feet, I said,oh, it's international high five
day, don't you know that?
And he was like, no, what'sthat?
I said, well, I give you thishigh five and then you've gotta
go out and you've gotta givefive people that high five.

(39:49):
And on it goes around the worldtoday it's international high
five day.
said, okay, cool, cool, cool.
And he totted out of the room.
It was about four hours laterand I went to have lunch and I
went to the cafe and I looked upand I went to pay for my lunch.
And the canteen lady, she heldout her hand I looked at her and
she said, it's internationalhigh five day.
It felt amazing, and it feltlike that's the power of play.

(40:12):
That's the power of what it cando if we put some thought behind
it, if we are playful ratherthan playing.

You mentioned before that people sometimes
find the many twists and turnsin your journey a little hard to
follow, make sense of.
There must have been quite a fewpeople invested in your
trajectory as an actor and thehigh point of the West End and
getting Helen Mirren'sendorsement on your work.
How are the people around youmaking sense of this transition
that you've made to working atthe Starlight Children's

(40:42):
Hospital?

Look, I think it made a lot of sense.
Anybody who has come across meor my work understands that
always that tension between artsand humanities.
I also think, and I will saythis boldly and unapologetically
that Australia does not valueits arts like other countries in
the world.
If you are to be an artspractitioner in this country, it

(41:05):
is a life choice and it is ahard one.
And often you'll find thatpeople have what they call their
B roll, which is where you willhave another form of income
because you cannot sustainyourself on your arts practice.
So it will be as no surprise forthose that were following along
that I took the turn intoStarlight and then have gone
into this way of being playful.

(41:26):
It is really interweaving all ofmy skills and all of the things
that I have been doing and thatI love for over 20 years.
I never thought they would allcome together, but miraculously
they have and I think everybodyaround me has been waiting and
is nodding and saying, oh,finally she's made it all make
sense.
Thank goodness we've beenwaiting such a long time.

Oh, well these things have a way of coming back
with even more force when theyseem like they're taking a long
time.
Well, let's continue fromStarlight then.
What happens then after the highfive moment and what causes you
to move on?

I spent five years actually working as a
facilitator and an actor in asimulation center for
construction, funnily enough,for teaching communication
skills within the constructionindustry in a simulation center.
I was doing simulated work andsimulation work back in 2001
when it was sort of freaky wayof training, like, ooh, this

(42:19):
freaky thing we are using actorsin training.
And during that time through amutual friend in London, I met a
woman called Kate, KateCrawshaw.
That was in arts, in the theatrebackground, and she was working
a lot in business and wantedmore arts in her life.
And I was working in arts andthought there was a real
goldmine in business.
I was like, there's so much canbe learned in from the business
world by using arts.

(42:40):
So, we got together and formed abusiness, Serious Woo.
And I built that up with her forfive years.
And then during Covid, forvarying reasons, it just became
too hard for me to continue on.
So she's continued on withSerious Woo and I have taken
this sideways trajectory.

So in the simulation center, was there a,
play component built into that,or was that something you
brought in?

I like to say that role play has the word play
in it, so, I would do two roles.
I would work as a facilitator oran observer, and coach the
feedback and coach the growthand the learning of the
participants.
But the participants themselveswould go down into a simulator
building site.
It's got a big hundred, 80degree, 11 meter high screen or

(43:25):
something.
And 12 site sheds that allcorrelate and actors would burst
in and they would run scenarios.
There was an element of play inthe sense that it was very
experiential learning in thesense that they would experience
a scenario, they would comeback, we would reflect on it, we
would think through it, use it,thinking through it, and then
they would go back again foranother go.
So there was definitely anelement of play.
It probably wasn't as physicallyengaging as it is now, although

(43:48):
we were in a physical simulationtogether.
But it was definitelyexperiential learning.

So if I understand this right, in the Starlight
role it really occurred to youthe power of purposeful play.
And then in the simulationcenter there was a realization
of what a need there is forexperiential learning and play
as an unlocking thing inbusiness.

So the building blocks started in
applied improvisation.
That's my background.
I went to the US and I workedwith Bob Moyer and another
gentleman who are brilliant,brilliant, Max, Bob and Max.
So my background was theimprovisation, and that's been
tinkering along the whole time.
And then when I got into roleplaying and scenario work, I
learned about the experientiallearning cycle.

(44:35):
And that was, once again, wayback when it was only firstly
developed and became a hugeadvocate of how that works in
terms of embedding learning.
And then as we went along,Starlight showed me that I could
actually use play theory toembed that learning through the
experiential learning.
And the tool I could use wasimprovisational tools.
And then design came in at theend, I kept bumping into this

(44:57):
design thinking, designthinking, and I was so curious.
And then I had a a meeting witha gentleman, called Ash Leary.
He works for Taxi, which is anincredible organization and he
was telling me about the workthat they do in the
human-centered design world.
And my eyes widened.
It was exactly what I was doing.
so that led me down that path.
And so the design part of it isactually finding the tools and

(45:22):
almost the process of all of theothers.
That's sort of where the fourbricks entered.

I'd love to hear a little bit about that process,
because I find there's often amoment when you have this
conscious thought that I know Ihave I've got all the
ingredients on my table, but Idon't know how they go together
in what ordering, start tryingstuff and it feels kind of close
but out of reach at the sametime and then it comes together

(45:49):
somehow.
It's a really weird mysticalprocess.
I wondered how that is for you.

Yes, Oh, oh, it's a weird one.
And it's taken a long time.
So I learned about design andthen I decided, yes, I really
want to be good at this.
So I'm currently doing aMaster's of Design Futures at
RMIT.
There was a moment in that wherewe were given this sort of
encyclopaedia of organizationsthat are doing work around the
world.

(46:15):
And I squealed.
It was like I'd suddenly foundwords for what I did and how I
did it.
And it was really exciting.
I hate boxes, and people say,what do you do?
And I'm like, oh, if you don'tfit in a box, it's really,
really difficult.
And so I think for those of uswho don't fit into a box, it's a
very confusing journey becauseyou're always sort of wafting

(46:38):
around, not quite sure how todescribe yourself, not really
sure how you express what it isthat you do, but you know what
you do and the people that youwork with know what you do.
It's just how do you put it inthat box for everybody else
who's not used to differentshapes.

Yeah.
Finding your red thread is thelanguage I've settled on.

I love your red thread.

well, yeah, it's really interesting that language
because people intuitively grabonto it, even though it's not
entirely clear what it means.
It means something to everyone.
This comment someone made, I canfeel my red thread is close, but
I feel like I can't reach outand grab it.
I thought that was a reallyphysical, tangible way of
thinking about it.

(47:21):
Was there a moment when it cametogether for you in that way,
all the different blocks andpieces, or was that the moment
that you told me about beforewhen you just blurted out?
I help people play.

Yes.
That was the moment and itreally was a lot of soul
searching and a lot of, my lifehas never made sense.
Everybody around is like, you'vehad their most extremely
incredible experiences, how doyou tie them together?
And when I sat down and pulledit all apart, it was that moment
of truly understanding what I doand truly understanding the

(47:54):
value of what I do.
That felt wonderful because, I'mnot a pressure cooker.
I have been a slow cooker, butthe stew is richer and deeper
and more nutritious.

What did you do the rest of that day when you had
that, oh, this is my thing.

I don't think it comes as a lightning bolt.
I think it's a gradualrealization.
And for me it was when peoplesaid, what do you do?
And I'd say, oh, I'm a, um,well, I met, uh, like I, got the
arts and, and I'm, andexperiential and it's
communication.
And I would, um and ahh and thenone day somebody said, what do

(48:31):
you do?
And I said, oh, I'm a mashupbetween experiential designer,
applied improvisation, playtheory.
And it just rattled off mytongue and I thought, oh, I got
it.
I do truly believe that if youare really, truly passionate and
happy in what you do, you willbe excellent at it.
And I feel very blessed that Ido wake up in the morning and I

(48:53):
do step forward.
I have no problem working on aweekend because I genuinely love
what I do and I feel veryblessed to have that.

Thank you.
That really comes through in theway that you talk as well.

Thank you.

I like to talk to and about people who I call
grokkists, who people who areled by curiosity and have a
thirst for learning, and havesquiggly careers and
multihyphenate ways ofdescribing themselves and have
this drive to leave thingsbetter than they've found them.
This is language, it's taken mea while to put together and give
the name, Grokkist, but is thatgrokkist idea something that

(49:30):
resonates with you?

I've been following your journey for a
while and it's nice to see thatit's come through, that grokkist
is cemented, that that idea iscemented.
So, yes, I love it and I thinkthere's something really
wonderful about knowing thatthere is a tribe of people who
all feel the same way and thatit's starting to be appreciated.
It was actually Simon Sinek whowas talking about being a

(49:54):
generalist and the pride thatyou should feel in being a
generalist.
That made me out myself with myhigh job number of 48 jobs.
and it's nice to find a group ofpeople who are enjoying that and
seeing the value in that.

Yeah.
Thanks for that and thanks formaking that comparison as well.
It's continues to be a reallyinteresting journey for me to
find the other kind of similarlanguage and concepts that
people use.
Generalists is one andmulti-potentialites and
Renaissance people andhummingbirds and all sorts of
other language.
It has this way of unitingpeople from completely different

(50:30):
walks of life and experienceswho don't necessarily even have
a lot in common, except this wayof being and living and just
getting those people together,it's just blows my mind every
time.

It's really important because, I think
humans need a little bit of ashake.
You know, we are told that thesethings are really important.
And I think when you find agroup of people that realize
that, yeah, maybe there's a bitmore to it, it's exciting.
It's really exciting.
So, on behalf of all thegrokkists, thank you very much.

Oh, thank you, Trudi.
I have a few things more to askyou about what your life looks
like now, kind of post thresholdmoment of embracing the life as
a play specialist.
What does your life a playspecialist look like these days?

It's lovely.
It's varied.
I have been really enjoying thekeynote speaking.
It's not something you hear alot of people say.
It scares the bejesus outta mostpeople.
But I actually really love it.
For me, there is that element ofperformance, of improvisation,
of comedy.
There's all the things that Ihave spent 20 years learning

(51:39):
rolled into one.
On top of that, I feel like italso helps people, not only just
in their working world, but intheir private lives.
I have people come up to meafterwards and tell me that, you
know, oh, you've inspired me togo home and do A, B, and C.
It's reaching people.
And so that combination isreally wonderful.
So, if anyone's out there andlistening and wants a post lunch

(52:02):
speaker that isn't going to makeeveryone fall asleep, that's how
much I actually enjoy it.
I don't mind the post lunchslot.
My real thing is about solving aproblem with a problem, right?
So often people will come to meand they'll say, I have this
problem.
Can you solve it in a playfulway?
I love a problem solvingchallenge, and I love to do that
through workshops andfacilitation.

(52:22):
And people are really moved.
I also work with some incrediblepeople on that front too.
It's not just me.
I also partner up with andassist the great work of others.
And I love that, because they'rebrilliant, smart women, mostly
women, funnily enough.
So I have that side of my worldwhere I do workshops and
facilitation.

(52:43):
I do that side of my world,which I'm really trying to grow,
which is my keynote and mypresenting because I'm loving
it.
and then I have the other sidewhere occasionally I have people
who want consultation orone-on-one or really feel like
they're lacking in their livesand would really like to become
more playful with theirday-to-day.
It's more creativity coachingthan play, although I believe
they're highly intertwined.

(53:03):
But that's more of a creativitycoaching.

I watched your keynote panel at the design
Outlook conference recently.
I was interested in the way thatyou juxtapose creativity with
play because creativity tends tobe celebrated in corporate
culture, but play is sometimestreated as suspicious.
You gave an example of anorganization deciding to hold a

(53:26):
creativity afternoon versus aplay afternoon.
So some would say there are waysof being creative without
necessarily being playful, butI'm interested in this idea of
them being intertwined and ifyou could unpack that a little
bit more.

Sure.
You know, creativity is thisreally highly valued skill.
I think, HBR have recognized itas the most valuable employable
skill of the future.

That's Harvard Business Review for people
playing

Business Review.
Sorry, I just rattled off anacronym.
Like a boss.
HBR, if you don't mind.
Yes.
We definitely know our thingsabout the Harvard Business
Review.
Creative thinking is the numberone employable skill for the
future.
So everybody is talking aboutcreativity, and I love it.
It's my world that I live in.
I run courses on it with theInstitute for Experiential
Learning.
We offer a course on thecreative thinking process, and I

(54:13):
believe that creativity and playare intrinsically linked.
The difference is thereputation.
You say creativity and peoplerevere it and you say play and
people dismiss it.
My question and my provocationis I don't think you can be
creative without being playful.
Being creative is really aboutcreating new ideas and concepts

(54:36):
and thinking outside the box.
And in order to do that, youhave to play around.

I find that really interesting because the language
that they do use to describethat kind of play is all about
failure and failing fast anditeration but that is playing
around, isn't it?

You are welcome to fail.
Please feel free to fail.
Just make sure that you do it ina timely manner and don't waste
our time and get it right thefirst time.
But other than that, you feelfree to fly.
But don't be playful.

Yeah.
What's that about?

It's our fear.
In order to fail, you've gottabe brave and you've got to put
yourself out there, right?
You've really gotta trysomething.
Earlier today, we triedsomething we'd never done
before.
We could have looked like idiotsin front of everybody.

Maybe we did.
That's

maybe we did look, it wasn't the most
successful choice, but hey, wetried.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
As humans, we are very good attalking the talk, but the
pressures around us are greatand are we really free to fail?
There are some organizations whodo it very well.
But once again, when you look atthose organizations, they often

(55:42):
do it really well because theyget really playful.

That leads me to another question that I had off
the back of watching that talk,which was very interesting, by
the way.
So the panel had leaders ofdesign teams in corporates, and
one of them was saying that it'simportant to not ask for
permission to preserve theweirdness of design.
And that design teams need toadvocate for that weirdness and
creativity because who else inthe organization is gonna do

(56:08):
that if not them, and who'sgonna drive that culture, but,
there is that underlying thingthat you're talking about where
there's pressure for outcomesand results and are we really
free to be weird and do thosethings.
So design teams that are weirdare maybe at risk of getting cut
when the organization stopsseeing the value of their

(56:29):
approach.
So I'm interested in how younavigate that tension about the
organizational value of play ina corporate setting, and in
business terms, if you candescribe the value chain of play
in an organization.

Yes.
That is one of my challenges andthat challenge is about having
an organization trust theprocess.
I had some wonderful panelguests at Design Outlook.
They were all amazing, and asBrendan said, you can't just be
weird without a result at theend.
You can't be weird all the time.
You have to have something toback up your weirdness and what

(57:07):
is interesting for me is thatoften, what I met against is a
lack of trust that it will work,right?
A lot of people will say, wewant our team to be engaged and
connected, or we wanna innovatesomething for our strategy.
And I say, okay, we're gonnastart by playing stuck in the
mud and they go, what?
So, it does take some braveryfrom an organization to step

(57:32):
forward.
What I do find is that thoseorganizations who trust the
process then reap the rewards.
It's about being really clear onwhat your problem is, and it's
being really clear to them howthe work that I bring will solve
that problem.
For me, it's about having reallyclear communication in saying to
you, I'm not just coming in toplay stuck in the mud.

(57:52):
I'm coming in to let peopleexperience stuck in the mud.
And then we reflect on the factthat when one person touches the
other, you immediately know tofreeze and you don't think about
it and what does that say to usabout our habits.
There is always a reasoningbehind what we do.

I think I heard you say it's about getting agreement
about trusting the process.
And the process seems to beabout making the space to
develop this kind of environmentout of which will come
something.
And we don't know exactly whatit is, but something will come.

What will come out of it is the problem that
they want to be solved.
The value chain for anorganization is often they say,
we know that there's problemswithin our organization, but we
need them to come to the surfacesafely, right?
So I'll work out ways that wecan do activities, and we do a
workshop or something where allof a sudden as a group so that
nobody's exposed all of theissues come to the surface and

(58:48):
the managers say, I don't knowhow you did that, but wow, okay,
we're gonna take all of thoseand it's given us something to
work on.
So it's being really clear onwhat is your problem that you
wanna solve as yourorganization?
This is how I can solve thatproblem with what I do.
And then the steps, like thefollow up.
And if you look at what a lot oforganizations use my work for,
it's innovation.
We want our people to thinkdifferently and come up with
different things.

(59:10):
It is connection.
We want our staff to feel safe.
It is psychological safety.
We need them to communicatesomething, but we need it to be
done in a safe environment.
And ultimately, often the onethat I find the hardest to prove
is the retention.
If you can instill in yourworkplace a playful culture,
people wanna stay longer.
But I'm yet to prove that.

Do you ever find that the process of purposeful
play ends up revealing that theproblem that they thought they
wanted to solve is actually notthe problem?
Does that ever happen?

All the time.
All the time.
Do you know what, this isactually really remarkable.
Let me explain.
I did this one workshop where itwas all about communication,
right?
And they wanted the people tocommunicate this new package
that was going from somethingthat was given to somebody, to
something that was suddenlybeing sold.
So they wanted their reps to beout there and rather than know

(01:00:06):
how to give it away, they wantedto sell it.
And they thought it was aboutcommunication and relationship
building, right?
So they got me in, and we'redoing this workshop about
relationship building.
And all of a sudden whatuncovered was actually, it's not
the relationship building, it'sthe fact that they don't like
talking about money, becausethat's not their background,
These are pharmacists.
It's not their background totalk about money, and they felt
awkward about it.

(01:00:27):
So the beautiful thing is thatthis is where the improvisation
comes in.
We had a 15 minute break.
We scrapped the rest of theworkshop and we pivoted so that
we actually practiced the realproblem.
And the real problem was how dowe overcome that conversation
about money?
What I didn't know was that oneof the people in the workshop

(01:00:47):
was actually the owner of thecompany.
She didn't tell me she was theowner of the company until the
end of the workshop.
I would've hated to know.
She came up at the end and said,look, I just wanna let you know
that I'm such and such and I ownthis company, and thank you so
much for uncovering what is thereal problem within here?

Danu Poyner (01:01:03):
Do you think that play is an appropriate method to
use for every organization, orare there some kind of problems
to be solved that that's notreally the best solution?

Trudi Boatwright (01:01:17):
I think play can be used in every
organization, but I don't thinkplay can be used to solve every
problem.
I'm not delusional in the factthat I think you can run a
multimillion dollar businessjust by using play.
There's certain elements of anorganization that you can't be
playful about.
If you are talking about ITsecurity or

I reckon you could do that.

well, actually, do you know, I did,

Yeah.
Let's hear it.

That was awesome.
So I created a game for someonearound safety.
Like why it's important to becyber aware and cyber secure.
And it was like a quiz game andit was like a race against time
game and it worked a treat.
So I think you can, But I alsofeel like a lot of people come
to me and say, I've gotta teachpeople a computer program

Yeah.
Oracle.

Oracle.
Right.
I think you can make thatplayful.

I guess what's sitting in my head is more the
example of workplace trauma fromtoxic culture that's not been
addressed, even thoughofficially it's been addressed.

Yeah, and that's why I say HR issues as
well.
Actually, one of the things thatI'm doing in terms of combining
arts, play and business at themoment is I'm writing an
interactive multimedia playaround breaking open mental
health conversations.
But I'm also under no illusionthat for that you need the
proper people and theappropriate people to be
involved.
That's why I say HR.

(01:02:43):
Anything that steps into thattrauma region, psychological
safety is my number one.

yeah, Well, what advice would you give to
individuals or organizations whoare thinking about incorporating
more play and creativity intotheir work?

I always suggest to people little tiny
steps to start.
if you want to get reallyplayful, if you want me to
design a program, get me in.
If you wanna move beyond thepaddle pool, contact me and we
can design something together.
But if you are starting, it'sthe little tiny things.
It's about, how can I do thisdifferently to create fun, to

(01:03:20):
create anticipation.
We love to compete.
We love racing against things,figuring things out.
With our immersive theater thatwe make through the theater
company, one of the best thingsis people running around trying
to work out what's happening andput all the pieces together from
the characters.
Humans, we love to explore andcrack codes and conquer things.
So what can you do to makethings conquerable?

(01:03:43):
Often people will be like, okay,we're going to play a game.
So, Danu, you can you pleasestart by telling us your, and
putting everything on the spot.
So I would say to people, reallythink about your audience and
think about what they arecapable of and comfortable with.
My sister is the polar oppositeto me, a high introvert.

(01:04:03):
And I put her in the forefrontof my mind whenever I'm
designing anything.
And I say, would she do this?
And if the answer is yes, it'sin.
So that's the other thing Iwould suggest.
Start small, add just thoselittle elements, and consider
who you are dealing with so thatyou don't take anyone out of
their comfort zone.

(01:04:24):
It's a very fine line.

I've been marinating in your newsletter
for a little while before, um,you know, I'd like to just spend
time in someone's world withbefore I reach out and you have
these little suggestions forplayful activities that are
quite bite sized andimplementable.
And one of the ones I enjoyedthe most was the suggestion
about putting googly eyes onthings and to form a new, new

(01:04:48):
relationship.
It did actually make me verytempted to put googly eyes on
your face on the artwork whenthis goes out.
I don't think I will do that.
But it is very tempting.

Do you know?
It is the simplest thing, but byGod it works.
It's incredible.
Apparently we're hardwired to doit or something, but it's those
little things, right?
It's so good.
Yes.
I'm so glad you like it.
Awesome.

Yeah, so I enjoyed that.
I'm wondering about my own senseof playfulness, which has got to
do a lot with having fun withlanguage and subverting
expectations.
One of my favorite playfulactivities to amuse myself is
deliberately misinterpretingmarketing, you know, posters and
things.

(01:05:31):
And I remember Subway used tohave this promotion, that you
would go in and say, add avocadoto any sub for a dollar.
And I really had to bite hard tosuppress the urge to say, please
add avocado to that man in frontof me sub.
It's a kind of self-destructive,anarchic impulse and I don't
know whether that just meansthat's playfulness or more of an

(01:05:54):
outlet for my ID.

I would say that's playful.
I think there's gotta be alittle bit of cheekiness in
there, doesn't there, there's alittle bit of rebellion that
comes with some of this stuff.
I love walking into a lift andnot turning around.
standing there and facingeveryone, everyone freaks out.
Nobody knows what to do.
It's really fun.
And you just stand there andpeople are just like, I dunno
what to do.

That throwing people off their script, is that
sense of script lessness is areally interesting moment of
social tension and things can govery badly in those moments, but
also people can laugh instead.
of they, They decide how theywanna deal with the
scriptedness.
Do you find that?

Yes.
And that is what I really love,is that actually it awakens in
somebody, this feeling.
And it's a feeling that theyhaven't had in so long.
And that is my most favoritepart of the work that I do, is
unlocking this feeling of, woo,being in a new space that feels
slightly out of your comfortzone and fun and exciting and

(01:06:57):
possible.
There's possibility in thatspace and there's belief in
yourself in that space.
I love seeing people just let goand just be them, because that's
when the real gold comes out ofpeople.
That's when all the beautifulstuff comes out, when you just
stop censoring yourself.

Well then I have to ask you, given how much
experience you've had in boththe arts world and the corporate
world, which of those cultureswould you say takes itself the
most seriously?

Oh, I love this question.
Cuz it's really juicy.
I would say they take themselvesseriously in different ways.
Um,

Oh, that's a safe, so

isn't it safe?
Alright, push me, I'll go there.
Um, the business world takesitself far more seriously.
But do you know why?
Because, it has to.
It has to because there's a lotmore riding and there's a lot
more hierarchy.
The interesting thing about thearts is often your currency is
passion, that changes thedynamics and the power dynamics.
I feel like the business worldis missing a golden nugget by

(01:08:04):
not dipping into the arts world.
They're apples and pears.
And I look at all of theleadership tools, the workshops,
the models, and I feel likethere is so much that can be
learnt by leaders in thebusiness world by looking at the
process that happens in arehearsal room.
There's just, something missingin between that I think the arts
world has a handle on that thebusiness world doesn't.

(01:08:26):
But then again, the businessworld can often eat healthy
meals and the arts world arestill shopping in that reduced
aisle, reduced section.

So what do you think they could learn from each
other, these worlds?
And is there a playful way to dothat?

That's what I'm trying, I'm trying, There
are people that I work with, acouple of wonderful men who are
putting the knowledge thatthey've learned in a rehearsal
room into leadershipdevelopment.
I have always threatened, and Iwill do it, create a podcast
with my partner who also has anacting background to release
some of those secrets.
Because once again, you don'tsee what happens in a rehearsal

(01:09:05):
room.
And it's about pulling apart theway people interact and behave
with each other and reallyexamining that, which is what
leaders are trying to do.
How do we make them worktogether?
That's what I'm trying to dowith my mental health play.
That's my big goal is to reallytry and allow the business world
to see the value in getting morearts practices involved and arts

(01:09:26):
to know that the business worldhas a lot to offer too.

I think that's a very worthy goal and a very
achievable one given whereyou're at and what you can
bring.
I'm very personally excitedabout that because it's
something I believe in also.
I'm wondering if that's replacedthe whale and the harpoon.
Is that the thing you're gettingin between these days?

That's the thing I'm getting in between.
I think I have worked out a wayto combine my arts and
humanities, I think that isthrough developing arts
practices that can be usedbeyond theater, and in the world
of business to really helppeople, to really make a
difference to people andorganizations and people in the

(01:10:06):
arts world.
Yeah, that's my new whale.

I really get the palpable sense that you're like,
I'm just getting started.
Hold my beer.
Watch me, I'm coming to do this.

Well, yes.
It's a busy time, but awonderful one.

So, we're both Australians, so we've already
done a fair bit of swearing, butI wanted to ask you about
bullshit and specifically, isplay ever bullshit.

yes, yes.

All right.
Tell me

All I need to say to you is the words, we are
going to have an icebreaker.

Oh, fuck

Yes, it can very much be bullshit.
Yeah.

Someone sent me this article the other day.
It was an article about moralinjury, there's a nice quote in
that article from someone whosays, if I have to listen to
another eat well, sleep well, doyoga conversation I'm going to
throw up.
And so I just wonder if there'ssomething quixotic about making
corporate life more playful inthis way.

Look, I think there can be, I think the other
thing that happens in thecorporate world is everybody
jumps on the latest, whatever itis, and everybody runs at it
like a bull at a gate.
And we are doing this, we'redoing this.
I think there is a danger ofthat.
But I was thinking about thisvery carefully in the sense of,
and this may be where you aregoing, is by giving play that
sort of fashionable edge, doesit ruin it?

Yeah.
Basically.

Uh, yes, if if done the wrong way.
But if you can get people into aplayful state, if you can get
people really engaged in thatsense of play where people are
being playful, you cannot befocusing on the reason why you
are being playful.
If you are truly being playful.
Because what happens is youbecome into the moment.

I agree with that, but I wonder if it is counter to
the point you made at thebeginning about the difference
between playing and playfulnessas one being intentional and
purposeful and to solve aproblem, and one just being in
the moment.
If I heard you right then yousaid that if you are being
playful, then you aredisappearing into that moment

(01:12:11):
and not aware that you are.
So does that collapse thatdistinction?

No, I don't think it does because the
mastermind behind it here, haha,will know the purpose.
We used a stuck in the mudexample, right?
I won't say to you, we're gonnaplay a game of stuck in the mud,
because what will happen is youwill notice that you immediately
respond out of habit and it willmake you think about, I don't
give you that beforehand.

(01:12:36):
I just say we're gonna playstuck in the mud.
So the act is playing, but thepurpose is playful, right?
So I know the purpose behind it,but you don't know the purpose
until after you've had theexperience.
This is the gold of theexperiential learning cycle, you
have the experience first, thenyou reflect on it.
You think through it, you makeyour critical analysis of it to

(01:12:56):
take action on it again.
It is most effective when it hasthat tool, that actual circle.
So if I tell you beforehand thatthis is why we're going to be
playing, it takes away theplaying.

That's good.
It's a very reassuring answerand it keeps play safe in a pre
verbal, pre-social state.
I think I like that very much.
Thank you for engaging me withthe question, I guess we should
give people an opportunity whoare enjoying this conversation
and keen to reach out to yousome advice about the best way

(01:13:28):
to find out more about you andyour work.
What's the best way to get intouch with you?

Yes, and I would encourage anybody who is
questioning how they can dothings differently with their
team or organization, even ifthey want to just have a
discussion with me about thepossibilities.
As I say, usually I work aroundinnovation and connection, and
communication.
And of course my speaking, ifyou do want that post lunch

(01:13:53):
energy, I do practice, it's notall off the cuff.
But you can contact me onLinkedIn.
Alternatively, I have a website.
All the links will be there.
So, contact me by email, contactme through LinkedIn.
You can follow my newsletter.
I do try and do a different veinof newsletter every month, which
keeps me on my toes as well.
And I would love to just talk topeople.

(01:14:14):
I'm really, really passionateabout helping people find their
playful selves within theirorganizations as well as
themselves.
So

Yeah.
Thank you.
I hope people will.
I think it's a great benefit foranyone who wants to liven up
what they're doing and embracethe possibilities.

Also watch this space.
You talked about the arts, as Isay the play is in development.
We haven't had a chance to talkabout it, but it's a really
lovely way of smashing openmental health conversations and
my theater company is having arevamp at the moment.
So there's more happening inthat arts and business space as
well.

One of my last few questions is asking people what
kind of thing they're focusingon at the moment, or what future
they're stretching towards.
I feel like I have that answerwith the mental health
direction.
And I'm really, reallyinterested to see where that
gets to.

Hmm.
It's been in development foralmost three years and every
time we put it in front ofsomeone new, they say, wow, this
is a really safe way to talkabout mental health.
Because that's one of our hugechallenges of today is the
struggles around mental healthand how do we have those
conversations safely?
And by using actors, we can dothat.

I wanted to commend you on your insistence on
putting yourself out of yourcomfort zone and being brave and
forcing yourself to do somethingnew every time.
There's a lot of disciplineinvolved in that when you don't
have to do that.
No one's making you do that, butI think that gives it life and

(01:15:42):
vitality and urgency.
Having spent some time readingyour stuff and watching your
stuff, that more than anythingelse is, I think what I'm
attributing that to is thatwillingness to be out front of
that and then lead from thefront and call everyone along
behind you and say, look, thisis the way this is great.

Thank you so much.
That's a really, really lovelything to say.
It's something I truly cherish,even though it's hard.
So, thank you.
It's lovely to hear that that'sacknowledged and appreciated.

I have one more question, which is, if you could
gift someone a life-changinglearning experience, what would
it be and why?

I have heard you ask this question and I have
thought about it a lot.
The answer may surprise you.
I would gift someone theexperience of being pregnant,
because I'm a great believer inthe mind body connection and how
they talk to each other.
There's a saying in comedy orcomedy performance.

(01:16:38):
We have a major and a minor.
Same in piano and music.
You have a major and a minor.
And all the time in our lives,our head plays our major, our
head makes our decisions.
It says to our body, you will goexercise now.
You don't care if you don't likeit, you are going.
Our body plays our minor andholds all this information that
the brain just doesn't listento.
When you become pregnant, thatflips for the first time in your

(01:16:59):
life and your body says thingslike, you will sleep now.
You will do this now.
You will eat this now, I've beenvegetarian for 20 years.
I suddenly had to eat lambsausages for a week cos my body
just said, you will eat lambsausages.
And it was just this incrediblejourney of seeing how powerful
our body is when it is givenpermission to step forward.

(01:17:21):
So I would like to gift that toeverybody so that you can unlock
the potential of your body as acommunicator and as a learning
bunch of cells.

I really like that answer.
Thank you so much.
I'm very gratified you've put somuch thought into it.

I've really enjoyed the question.
It's given me hours of thought.
Thank you.

It's been an immense pleasure talking to you,
Trudi.
I've really been looking forwardto it.
It's delivered beyond my wildestdreams.

This has been an absolute pleasure and a
wonder, I was so excited to sitdown and talk with you today
because it made me feel like Imade sense.
And if that's what the grokkistmovement is about, I'm 100%
there.
So thank you.

That's one of those quotes that can go on the
website.
That is absolutely what it'sabout.
It means a lot to me to hear youput it that way.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
Good luck with all of the thingsthat you're doing.
It sounds very exciting andwe'll be watching closely and
everyone can check out all ofthe amazing links in the show
notes.

Thank you so much.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Unlocking the power of purposeful play - Trudi Boatwright | S3E7