Still Standing Episode 1: Type vs. Soundness

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello everyone and welcome to Still Standing the
dog show podcast brought to youby the Canine Chronicle
celebrating 50 years ofexcellence.
I'm Wayne Cavanaugh and with metoday and every day is Kimberly
Meredith, the one and only Hi,kim.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi Wayne, how are you ?

Speaker 1 (00:29):
Are you excited?
I'm excited to be here with you.
Season one version one episode.
Whatever those kids say withthose things they watch on TV,
those series things, it's seriesone, episode one.
That's it's serious.
It's series one, episode one,that's it.
Right here today we are uhstarting this new podcast and
I'm pretty excited about itfully excited about it.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Totally, we can talk about whatever we want.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
We have freewheeling and we're going to talk about it
we do and and, by the way, yourmakeup and your hair look
fabulous.
I can tell you, it only tookthree hours for this to be
created and it's spectacular.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
And then we had to turn the lights out because I
look like a ruby red grapefruit.
So we won't talk about that.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Being this the first episode, there's going to be
things like this, like lighting,and we'll sort out along the
way, but meanwhile, bear with us.
Anyway, we have a lot to covertoday and one of the things we
want to focus on is kind of anold topic but a new slant on it,
and that is type versussoundness, among other things
we'll touch on as we go alongthat road.
Anyway, I want to start thisoff by getting right to it and,

(01:40):
kim, let's define I mean, that'san age old discussion, right
Type versus soundness.
What's more important?
Well, there isn't, it's not aversus at all, it's a blend,
right so?
Or one, is they overlap, right?
So how would you define breedtype for people who are trying
to learn how to evaluate dogs,or judges or breeders or anybody
?

Speaker 2 (02:02):
I would say that breed type is made up of all the
various nuances of thoseparticular breeds, whether it's
head shape, ear set, ear size,length of body, length of leg,
tail, carriage all of that playsinto it.
So you know, the nuances in abreed and in the breed standard
standard are really, reallyimportant, and so you have to be

(02:24):
able to pull all of that in,study it, learn it and apply it.
Not easy to do.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
No, it's not.
And one of the ways I findhelps me is to take those parts,
those nuances, and apply it tothe function of the breed, the
original plan for the breed.
So, for example, in short hairsand English pointers you know
pointers as we call them, andGerman short hair pointers what
makes them different?
That's when you get into headtype it's going to be different

(02:53):
for the different game they hunt, the different geography where
they were developed to hunt, andthose things become important
to that breed.
You want the breed elements tokeep them separate and unique
from each other breed, right?
You don't want the underlinesand any of the retrievers to
look alike, right, their wholeprofile.
And those are the elements thatI think of when I think of how
to define a breed, thosedefining characteristics that

(03:16):
come from the history, from thefunction and from the root
breeds.
And I talk about root breeds alot.
But I think it's importantbecause, taking, for example,
pointers, the original breeds inthat breed included foxhounds,
a lot of foxhounds, bloodhounds,even some people say terrier,
maybe even a white terrier, youknow, like a white bull terrier,

(03:37):
the back that we saw in the 161700s.
Breeds like that that you wantto look at the dog and say I
want a lack of those things.
I don't want round bone like afoxhound.
I don't want round long earslike a foxhound or like a
bloodhound or a coonhound, notlike a scent hound.
The scent count,characteristics, the underline,

(03:58):
the skirting, all those thingswill.
The absence of those things isbreed type.
For a pointer, right, thoseroot, the absolute root, breed
elements.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
It really helps you define where you're getting to
when it comes to breed type Iagree, the northern breeds I
come from the alaska malamute,originally from early 70s, and
you know their function to beable to pull you through a snow
drift, to get you back home,where you need to be, which is,
you know, strength, sturdiness,length of leg to break through

(04:31):
the snow, big snowshoe feet,double, you know coat, double
harsh coat to be able to survivethe elements if they're staked
out at night, even running theIditarod, they just stake them
out.
So without those essentialthings, then what do you have?
You don't have breed type, forinstance, in a Malamute, the
single most worst fault in theMalamute, in our standards, the

(04:55):
one word never is only used once.
Never is under long and softcoat because it's a survival
characteristic, correct.
So being able to study andlearn about these various things
, as you're talking about thesight hounds, the scent hounds
and what separates them, are thenuances of that breed that we
have to absorb and pass alongwhen we're looking at exhibits

(05:19):
in our ring.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
And so, again, you know that function brings the
elements of breed type and thosedefining characteristics that
again are, shouldn't be in there.
You know, you don't, you don'twant to see some of those root
we.
We don't want to get, uh, wedon't.
Greyhounds are the root breedfor pointers, for example.
So what do we get from that?
Too much tuck up, too narrow, atail base too skinny, a tail

(05:44):
base too long a tail all greyhskinny, a tail base too long a
tail, all greyhound elements.
You get your two fingers betweentheir front legs and there's
nothing there that's great in asight hound, it's not good in an
upland bird dog.
And contrary to that, abloodhound or foxhound or any of
those scent hounds will giveyou the you know straighter
underline too straight.
So you're looking for themoderation between too straight

(06:06):
and underline and not too muchlike a greyhound, no scent hound
, no sight hound.
So eliminating sight hound andscent hound characteristics from
a pointer is going to get youthere to what we think of as
breed type.
You don't want those elementsand we selected for all these
years to get away from that andthe reason is those
characteristics are linked tothe way the breed hunts and with

(06:28):
pointers.
We want an upland game bird dogwho can use his nose, use his
tail for balance and do allthose things that are unlike its
root breeds, the things thatmake it unique.
And I know, in sled dogs we seefor you with your Northern
breeds, we see dogs that havethis fabulous movement and then
you're thinking, unless they'rekicking the dog's chin behind

(06:50):
them, do they need all that kickFor?

Speaker 2 (06:53):
certain breeds right.
And that would be across thebridge, eliminating their
function.
Sure, sure, I mean you don'twant a lot of wasted motion in a
sled dog that's going to bepulling you Like the Siberian
Husky is a different story.
They're bred to race, okay, andthere's, you know, large teams.
Malamute was a solitary dog,stayed with the children, stayed

(07:14):
in the igloo and when thevillage was fished out they
would take their sledge, big,heavy sledge.
They'd pile the kids, all theirbelongings, belongings, and
that single dog would drag themand pull them to the next
fishing village.
So they weren't around a lot ofother dogs and you don't need
fast, racy, flashy movement.
You don't want it in that breed.
They're the quidesdale of thebreed, as opposed to the

(07:36):
siberian husky.
And you like comparisons andyou're comparing, like the
different bird dogs and uplandbird dogs and you know all of
that.
It all plays into it.
So importantly it does.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
The setters are a great example, right, I mean,
I've had, I've had the goodfortune of running irish setters
in the dublin mountains.
When you see that terrain, yousee those bogs and you see the
incredible expanse.
The expanse is phenomenal.
Those dogs run miles a day.
You understand why they needthat racy element not saying
they should be a racy breed, butthat that element that keeps

(08:09):
them more, more speed and moreum, I don't know something that
applies to that function andkeeps them different from gordon
setters.
You know, you certainly don'twant a gordon setter to look
like an iris setter and or anenglish setter or red and white,
and knowing those differences,being able to compare those
breeds to each other, is whatgets you to breed tight for that

(08:32):
breed and character,temperament.
I'm sure for you are.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Malamutes and Siberians similar in temperament
or a little different.
They're similar but different.
The Siberians, of course, arenot as dog aggressive because
they're used to running in teamswhere Malamutes were solitary
and you know they love to fight.
They can be very dog aggressiveso it takes a special owner.
You know you don't want tostick a Malamute thrown into a
pack with a bunch of other dogsbecause you're going to be in
trouble and again that goes tobreed character.

(09:00):
The original job of the dog wasa solitary job, so it all plays
in.
I think our job, you know as, istrying to develop an eye which
we like to say you know, doesthat judge have a good eye?
Does that breeder have a goodeye?
When that breeder is looking ata newborn litter, I can tell
you you're talking aboutunderlying, you're talking about

(09:21):
curves, you're talking aboutraciness.
We're evaluating all of thatfrom the time those puppies are
born.
We start doing that and I thinkit's important that breeders
recognize that, have that eyeand it goes forward.
If you should decide to go on tobecome a judge, very important
that you have that eye.
When those dogs walk into thering they make their first go

(09:41):
around.
I think all of us go that one,not that one, that one, not that
one, and then they have toprove themselves, of course, on
the move and their character andall of that.
But I think that we developthat eye as a breeder which is
so important to me if you'regoing to go on to become a judge
, to have that eye and to havethat breeder's knowledge and

(10:02):
background behind you, becauseyou can then transfer that to
other breeds that you study.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
You sure can and you know, looking at puppies,
looking at lots of puppies,looking at lots of dogs really
does sharpen that eye and getyou dialed into what you want to
see.
I remember Elliot Weiss at hishouse this has got to be 40
years ago and they had more.
They're're chesapeake bayretrievers in the backyard and I
was really working on trying toget that profile right.

(10:28):
We're having breakfast and Ilooked out the window and I said
that that's the shape, right,it, just it.
I knew it when I saw it and hesaid yes, that's the best
picture we ever had.
That's what you have to seedogs.
It's so much depends uponseeing and there's a, there's a
poem that that no one in theworld will know and it simply
said so much depends upon thered wheelbarrow glazed with

(10:51):
rainwater beside the whitechickens, and I always thought I
should say depends upon seeingthe red wheelbarrow glazed with
rainwater besides white chickens.
You can picture the feathers onthere and unless you've seen
that scene and know the farmscenes and know what chickens
look like, and assume you knowwhat a red wagon looks like, you
can't put the whole thingtogether.
So when you're judging and youhave the opportunity to see

(11:16):
three dogs, four dogs, over andover again.
Good luck developing that eye.
Without contrary, without doingthat comparison and contrasting,
it's really hard to developthat pinpoint it's.
It almost has to be soingrained in your brain.
If you have to sit there and go, okay, let's see, shouldn't

(11:37):
have that on, shouldn't havethat top on, shouldn't have this
, and you're going to judgmentpieces, you're never going to
get it.
By seeing dogs over and overand over again you can walk in.
Do you think a tennis playergoes okay, I have to put my arm
here, then here, then here whilethey're.
I mean you'd never get it doneright.
You'd stop at each point andoverstress it.
Um, my granddaughter's four,our granddaughter's four, um, my

(12:00):
wife's a really good swimmerand a good teacher of it.
And when you see tatum go tothe edge, to the diving board,
you can at this age, at four,she'll be saying to herself
hands here, focus here, armshere, and when you get once she
gets that down, she won't justsay that anymore.
And if you judge enough gooddogs in big classes, you're

(12:22):
never going to develop that eye.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
That's part of it.
I think that's why, too,national specialties are so.
I mean, you can't you know ifyou can, if you're studying any
breed, especially if you'retrying to complete a group?
You got to go to the nationalsbecause that's where you see the
quantities and the quality.
I mean, everybody's comingthere looking for stud dogs,
looking for puppies, et cetera,and if you're just judging small

(12:46):
shows with small entries allthe time, you're never going to
sharpen your eye, you never areno-transcript.

(13:13):
That's what we all need tostrive to do.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
It's on the job, training.
There's no doubt this is out ofthe truck, and I've used this
analogy too many times.
But when you get your driver'slicense, you've passed all the
tests, you've practiced andstudied, you're approved to
drive.
Are you as good that day orthat week or that year as you
are if you've been driving for10 years or 15 years, and also

(13:40):
to go down that path a littlebit more, if you learn to drive
in a rural area without anytraffic, you might be really
good in driving environment.
But if you were born and raisedin New York City and learned to
drive in New York City, that'sa whole different set of skills.
So if you're born in a region orgrew up in a region where

(14:01):
there's lots of dogs to see,good dogs to see, it's a real
advantage.
It's a real advantage.
It's a real advantage.
I mean, how lucky was I sheerluck to work for the four sides
where we had the best dogs inevery breed at the kennel every
day.
Uh, you can't help but developan eye for those breeds and to
learn their character, andthat's an element of breed type

(14:24):
that you can't write down, it'sgot it's osmosis.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
I mean you have to be around it, you've got to live
with that breed, you've got to.
I mean, when I was goingthrough applying, you know, for
groups I would get so interestedin, like, oh, I didn't know
this about that breed, I didn'tunderstand that about that breed
.
Wow, that's amazing.
And then you're like, oh, youknow what, I could buy one of
those.
I really like that breed andthat's what we hope to do in by

(14:49):
studying.
And then, you know, going backto your point about learning,
you know there's a lot ofcriticism always has been on
poor judging and it's nevergoing to stop.
It's an ongoing thing.
You have to have a thick skin,no doubt about it.
But I think all of us have theaspiration to walk into that
ring and try our very best tojudge it like a breeder judge.

(15:11):
Now we may not pay attention tothe same nuances, but hopefully
within five minutes.
Exhibitors are not stupid.
They know if you know theirbreed I mean first or second
class, if you've got somequality they know.
You know what you know.
And so I think that we do learnon well, so do surgeons.
Surgeons learn on theirpatients.

(15:32):
We learn on the exhibitors?
Unfortunately, so do I judgeRottweilers the same now that I
did when I first started?
Absolutely not, you know.
But that's the difference,wayne.
A lot of judges never make thatimprovement or they never get
beyond that.
And so what is it that letssome people have that eye and

(15:57):
learn it and keep it and keepadding to it, and others don't?
After going to seminars for 25years?

Speaker 1 (16:08):
others don't, after going to seminars for 25 years.
So the same reason that if Igot to go study with the Joffrey
Ballet for 25 years, I'd neverbe a good ballerina.
You either have it or you don't, and I know that's a
controversy.
Can you develop an eye for adog?
I don't think so.
I didn't get better at it.
But the ones that can just walkin and go, that one that takes
so much, it just takes adifferent kind of brain and a
different kind of eye forbalance.

(16:29):
When I see judges that to mearen't finding balance, I think
that I wouldn't want thempicking out drapes from my
living room, you know, yeah.
Or buying a dog, yeah, it's aneye for balance.
But when you think about you,you know we talked a lot about
character and breed type.
On the other end of that issoundness, right.
So one of the things I alwaysthink of to try to delineate

(16:52):
meet that middle is well, firstof all, I think we need both.
I think we need breed breederjudges who get right down into
the leather, the ear, the veins,the ear, the veins in the ear,
leather, right down to thethings that mean so much to
define that breed.
But I always think of thesephases as judging things as

(17:13):
phases.
So if you have a good eye, evenright Phase one, you walk in
the ring, you go, that's a gooddog.
What kind of dog is it?
What breed, I don't know, butthat's a good dog.
You have that eye for basicbalance, symmetry and

(17:35):
athleticism.
You have that.
You can judge like that forever.
A lot of people do, and withoutever learning finer points of
the breed.
Then you get into phase two andand this is my little theory
Phase two is where you learnabout the flared nostrils and
the eye shape and where the nosegoes and the different hair
textures and colors and wherethey are in the body in some

(17:56):
breeds, how the tape or the tailis different in some breeds
than others, and you really getto study those finer and you've
written them all down.
You've talked to all the people.
You read, read all the booksand you know all the finer
points and you forget about thewhole dog, the general dog that
you used to know about.
You're so honed in on findingthat vein in the ear that you

(18:19):
forget they can't walk.
So you've got to have that mixof judges that are really and I
think this is true with anythingin the world you need both ends
to find moderation and thatgoes way beyond our sport.
But if you have an eye, if youknow what phase you're in, no
one ever knows what phasethey're in.
That's the problem.
So, third phase you know allthat stuff about type.

(18:42):
It's now second nature, You'renot repeating it, it's in your
mind and you can see the wholedog and you put those things
together and you kind of havethe right mix of type and
soundness, and that's what we'regoing for.
You can't have one without theother.
In my mind anyway.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Well, you know the saying that.
You know you hear this all thetime from people you know.
Oh well, pound dogs can movewell, okay.
So what I mean?
But movement and soundness ispart of type.
You can't separate them, youreally can't.
And you can't judge parts.
I mean, look at nationalspecialties top 20 results many

(19:25):
times because you are on a scale, you're doing points, you're on
a scale, you're doing points,you're doing parts you're doing.
And then at the banquet, youknow everybody's all excited and
and the dog that was like 18thout of 20 there wins the top 20
and everybody goes.
What?
Seriously, you know, it's likeyou know and you're thrilled for
the person that won.
But it's certainly unexpectedbecause they're not judging

(19:47):
bulldogs.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Right, it goes beyond that.
There was a great thing.
This has got to be.
It was even before I was at AKC, which is in the early 90s.
There was right before that.
They hired an artist, awildlife artist, who was
beautiful at drawing differentanimals and they gave him the
clumber standard and they saidhe's never seen one or heard of
one.
No pictures, they said drawthis breed based on this

(20:11):
standard didn't look anythinglike the breed, nor would it.
You can learn all the fire.
It didn't look anything like itwhat's long and low?
I don't know this long, this low, this long, this low.
Um, and how do you put thoseparts together and the way those
parts balance and blendtogether?
That's gonna end up definingtype and soundness.

(20:32):
So when people say to me that Isee a pound dog could go this
sound, maybe it's sound, but isit moving like a min pin?
Is it moving like a pointer?
Is it moving like aNewfoundland?
Is it moving like a bulldog?
Soundness is yeah, you got yourlegs going in the right
direction.
Is it moving like a bulldog?
Soundness is yeah, you got yourlegs going in the right
direction, but is it right forthat breed?
So that's the part of type youcannot separate from soundness.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And people that expect a lot ofthese breeds to have.
You know, all of this reach anddrive and extension and the
front feet out above the noseand stuff is so wrong for other
breeds.
And then you get, you know,handling errors.
You know they're, you know Iwon't say a country, but there's
a country where they havebeautiful, beautiful dogs and I

(21:17):
love judging there, but they runeverything.
I mean they run.
If it's a Chihuahua, it's on adead run, if it's a Basset Hound
it's on a dead run.
And you say slow down, slowdown, slow down, but to them
faster is better and so it'swrong for each breed.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
It is.
Right so part of the art ofhandling.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
is handling it correctly for its breed?

Speaker 1 (21:39):
And for the individual dog in that breed.
Right Bastards know how to show.
You don't show every dog thesame in every breed.
You've got to know where yougot and where to accentuate and
how to make it look right.
But you know those are thingsthat you have to work.
There's so many good and Idon't just mean professional
hunters, I mean there's so manygood exhibitor bred by people,

(21:59):
exhibitors, handlers, that areso good at this now that you
really got to know what you'redoing on those quick seconds
where you can see them standingon their own or whatever you
might plan so over.
But in england, let's say, Iwould say they only have 26
championship shows.
There we have about 10 millionon memorial day weekend.

(22:20):
So for all year they have 26.
We actually have over 1700,don't get me started.
But because of that the breedentries are so big that you have
breed judges, because it makessense to.
If you have 300 goldens youneed two judges, crufts and a
referee.
But if you have a show wherethere's three and fours of this,

(22:41):
you're going to need multiplegroup judges to do it.
Just make it financiallyfeasible.
So when you have mostly breederjudges in a country, do they
hyper-focus on type and leaveout the soundness part.
I don't know that's like sayingyou know that's just

(23:03):
overgeneralization.
But could it be that the dogsthat we sometimes get from
England gorgeous, type, maybenot great on their legs, or you
go to America and we have a lotof multi-breed judges doing
these groups Are they going moreon movement or just basic
soundness, showmanship, coat,whatever, trimming presentation?

(23:27):
Again, gross, grossgeneralization.
There's plenty overlap.
But if you take it as just astory and think maybe this
country goes too much on type,this country goes so much on
generic movement, where's themiddle?
And that's to me is where typeand sound has come together and
we have great judges and inengland that can obviously do

(23:49):
just that.
See the whole dog, see theparts that define the breed,
watch it move.
Appropriate and sound to meisn't just legs, it's sound.
Yeah, no totally yeah, it's downmine, it's, uh, there's that
athleticism.
My little english toy spanielthat buggers an athlete, you see

(24:12):
, I mean when he goes, he can,he, he flies around, he can run,
he can jump, he can leap, andhe's got.
He's very balanced.
By the way, I'm not pimping him, because I showed him three
times.
He finished one, a couplegroups.
We're done with him now.
But but, um, and he's notperfect, but he's not perfect,
but he has athleticism andbalance and that's sound body

(24:36):
and mind.
Uh to, to pull that off.
And we've seen a lot of dogsthat are good down and back but
can't move from the side forthat breed.
We see them that are good downand back that can't get their
head and tail in the right spotfor that breed.
So it's, there's so muchoverlap and so much, so much.
Just um, it's like overlappingconcentric circles if you have

(24:57):
to see it all at once, but whenyou do, it's something to
celebrate and that's why we goto shows.
We go.
We go to shows.
We know it's not going to be aton of quality, hoping to find
that gem.
That's what keeps us going tofind that diamond.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, everybody wants to finda great one.
And then how many times, wayne,do we have, we're judging, and
this beautiful, beautiful animalwalks in and it's balanced and
it's beautiful and it has breedtype and it's got correct tail
set and it's.
It's balanced and it'sbeautiful and it has breed type
and it's got correct tail setand it's, and it and it's a
freak.
You know the owners can't, it'sscary death, it won't do

(25:35):
anything, you know, and you'relike, oh no, you gotta be
kidding me.
And then you see the dog andyou just hope, okay, maybe it's
the first time in the ring,second time in the ring, and you
see it six months down the roadin another show and it's
behaving the same way.
It's tempered worse or worse orworse, and what a shame, right,
but we?
I mean, there's no perfect dog.

(25:57):
But you can build the perfectdog, but if it doesn't have the
temperament, the outgoing, theself-assured, you know it's not
going to do anything, it's notgoing to win and you certainly
don't want to breed it if it'sgot a freaky temperament.
So I keep going back to it as abreeder.
You know, when I'm judging, Ipretend.
This is like I've been tellingpeople this for years.
I pretend like I used to say Ihave $500 in my pocket.

(26:20):
I'm now like at 2,500 becausedogs are expensive.
And I have $2,500 in my pocketand I've got 50 dogs let's say
just 50 beastless for instanceand I have to buy one of them.
I'm going to buy it, I'm goingto take it home, I'm going to
feed it, I'm going to breed it.
Okay, what am I going to bringhome?
I don't care what class it's in.
If it's a puppy dog, six tonine, owner handler, I don't

(26:42):
care.
But but I mean, I think that'sthe decisions that a lot of
judges, hopefully, are making asbreeders in advance, correct?

Speaker 1 (26:51):
So not the one you showed the best or look the
prettiest, but the one you wantto start a breeding program, for
example.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, no, exactly Exactly.
And we all mean every judgewants to find that.
I mean we're all looking, youknow.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
Oh, you know you and you can.
Brody's better at this than mein the general population of the
world, but he finds the good ineverything and I can do it.
I hope when I'm looking at dogsI really do hyper-focus.
Right down the line I'veconvinced myself that's ugly.
I gotta find something goodabout that one, because if I'm
not thinking about virtuesinstead of faults, I'm never

(27:30):
going to.
First of all, I'm not going tohave fun in there looking for
faults all day.
Anybody can fault you.
But if you can be confident inknowing those virtues and what
to look for, it's more fun foryou and it's better for the
breeds.
You're not going to end upputting up the great show dog.
You're going to look for theone that has the most virtues.
With that said, we get a minuteand a half on a good day right

(27:53):
To look at your dog.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, on a good, on a good day, providing that, you
know, everybody gets in the ringon time and and all of that I
mean.
You know, I think that I don'tthink you can separate breed,
type and soundness.
I really don't.
I think it's got to be presentin the same animal to move
correctly for that breed, likewe discussed.
You know, like a min pin.
You know, look at all thecontroversy over the years, oh,

(28:15):
that one has way too much lift,that one doesn't have enough
lift.
You know.
So it's everybody's.
You know, judging is subjective.
What you may think is long, Imay not think is long.
You know, or some of theadjectives in the standards.
I can see why that clumberspaniel didn't look anything

(28:36):
like a clumber spaniel, becausegoing in the adjectives and the
verbs in a standard is verydifferent than looking at an
animal.
And you know, a longtime mentorof mine and dear friend, rick
Beauchamp, used to say all thetime look at the whole dog and,
okay, if its front sucks andeverything else about that dog
is so beautiful, everything inthat dog is beautiful.
It doesn't have a great front,okay, so what?

(28:57):
It doesn't have a great front?
There's no perfect dog, so youchoose that dog for all of its
virtues and, yes, it has a fault, because they all do.
People sitting outside the ringmay say oh my God, look at the
front on that dog.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
I can't believe that dog won right, yeah, all the
time, people that haven't beenaround long enough.
And you know, I think that'sanother thing.
If you're going to be able tolearn how to see this
intersection, this balancebetween type and soundness,
which really is, it's reallythat's the holy grail, right,
being able to see thatcombination and celebrate it.

(29:31):
But if you're not able to learnhow to see that, you're gonna
end up going down the road ofshowmanship and generic and
fancy and never really, you'renever gonna get into that
mindset of going.
That's the one I wanna breedfrom, that's the one.
And I do a thing and you'veheard me say this, kim, in the
ring.
I do this thing in my head.
When I'm judging a gun dog, forexample, I'll say a bird dog, a

(29:53):
sporting dog in America, whenI'm judging any of those breeds,
and it gets down to it, my lastthing I ask myself every single
time I have a single shot 410.
I've got one shell.
I'm really hungry, who's comingwith me?
And that puts me right backinto the function and

(30:13):
originality of that breed, thehistory of that breed, and gets
me out of the ooh look at theshiny hair.
It gets me right back to whereI need to be back to the basics.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Absolutely, you're so spot on, so, spot on yeah.
Who wants to pull the sled?
Come back.
Absolutely, yeah, you're.
You're so spot on, so, spot onyeah who wants to pull the sled?

Speaker 1 (30:28):
come back, who wants to pull?
So you know, who are you goingto bring with me?
I gotta pull stuff you know Ihave to bring.
I've got to bring the lastvaccine to gnome alaska.
Who's coming with me?
You know, um, and that can betrue for every breed.
And, and being a new secondtime toy dog owner, which is so
foreign, uh, to where my lastdog was a wolfhound, now I've

(30:50):
got an English dog Spaniel.
That's an interesting thingbecause that was bred to be a
companion dog, to look prettyright, but to do that you've got
to have four legs to get to theball and you've got to be able
to well, hopefully, and you'vegot to be able to just do the
things that work for art and forcompanionship.

(31:10):
Are there elements of type thatare related specifically to
function?
Yes, but it's related to thewhole gestalt of the breed.
I mean, it's the essence of thebreed.
Then you can learn that too,without having to say who's
going hunting.
You don't necessarily say who Iwant in my pillow, but it's not
a bad thing to run through yourmind.
Um, yeah yeah yeah, what's cute,is it?

Speaker 2 (31:33):
you know, speaking of that, like you know heads and
expression and eyes, and youknow these soft melting, I mean
there's so many breeds that,like a pyrenees, appear with a
proper head, with a beautifuldark eye.
The soft expression, I mean, itjust melts you right.
And so I have a tendency to, ifyou've got to look at it on the

(31:53):
couch every day or lay next toit in the bed, you don't want an
ugly head, you know.
And then they, oh well, theydon't function with their head.
Well, yeah, most of them do,because they're carrying birds
or they're doing whatever.
But also, I want pretty, I wantbeautiful.
You know, I think we all do.
We wouldn't have purebred dogsif we didn't appreciate beauty

(32:15):
in a breed.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
Right, and I think the key to beauty is balance,
and that's true in everything.
If you're picking out clothes,anything, balance is going to be
.
You might not be thinking thatway, but that's really what
determines.
I mean, there's these greatstudies, wonderful studies
national geographic did one onfaces of all different parts of
the world, people from all overthe place and judging beauty.

(32:39):
And the thing that they findmost compelling to their studies
and it's not just one studygoing on for years is symmetry.
If this half of the face is inbalance with this half of the
face and the people that areclicking on like this, this is
prettier, this is more beautiful.
They don't know that, butthey're falling for that balance

(33:02):
.
That's what appeals to them.
Is that balance between sidesof the face?
I never even thought of that,but it's that background brain
of balance that keeps us lookingfor beauty, and it could be
knowing what's not balanced.
In photography, for example, youknow if you always have the

(33:22):
subject centered right in themiddle, it can get boring.
There's three parts of everyphotograph.
You can put the subject here,there, in different places,
places, but you need to know thebalance of where that goes.
And with dogs, you need to knowhow big that head should be in
uh, in comparison to that body.
So when you uh look at these,these pieces like the clumber

(33:43):
spaniel drawing, what you cansee is how they flow in each
other and how that affects breedtype, and it's it's not that
difficult to learn theindividual parts or draw that
list.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
It's much harder to put them all together, oh for
sure you know, interesting intalking about this just made me,
made me think of something that, talking about symmetry of face
, symmetry of markings, isn't itinteresting that all of us,
most of us, are so drawn to thebeauty of a split face in a

(34:20):
breed, in a smooth box, in a,with it in a you know, and when
they're beautiful and you'rejust like, wow, I love split
faces, right, and that all Ithink goes all back to the
balance and the beauty of it andthe symmetry, because having a
split face is is, you know,visually, judges have to be

(34:42):
aware of it, but also have toappreciate it.
It has to be balanced andbeautiful.
So same type of thing.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
And eliminating that one thing, like you're talking
about with Rick, there was aWhippet seminar I was at in
Houston.
It was a real good one andthere was a bitch in there that
was just outstanding easily thebest one in there but she had a
U-neck.
That's a bad thing for Whippetright, really bad thing.
So are you going to give herwinners at the national and

(35:10):
overlook that?
Maybe not, but when you'relooking at these dogs as a group
of all different sizes andgenders in a seminar situation,
if you don't pick out all thegood parts in that bitch and try
to blink, you know, blur youreye at that ewe neck, you're
going to miss all the qualitiesof balance.
She was a split face, all the.

(35:35):
Blur your eye at that u-neck,you're going to miss all the
qualities of balance.
She was a split face, all allthe elements of balance, of top
line and where things go.
Uh, she just was.
So she had all that.
Look those ears, the eyes, shewas just beautiful there.
So you've got to.
And sometimes people and that'swhen the sideline people, um,
the ringside exhibitors orspectators or knowledgeable
people even they'll see that andgo wow you, you put up a
lengthy eunuch If they don'tknow the breed.
If they don't, you have to havethe courage.
If you have to have the courageto go in there and go.

(35:55):
I know you're all going to saythis dog has a bad rear, because
he does, but you know what?
This is tight.
This is a dog that I've beenlooking for all day and I
finally got one.
And I'm not gonna care aboutyou saying, man, I'm being rare.
I, by the way, I like goodrears.
It's a big deal for me.
But any virtue like that thatanybody can see.

(36:15):
Anybody can see that we used tohave horse people come to this
particular show near a traininggrounds.
Horse got oh, horse trainers,great guys, they didn't, they
just thought it was fun to comewatch and they'd pick out dogs
of any breed, just like that.
They wouldn't even agree andI'd say what is it that you like

(36:37):
?
That's something about theirbalance, something where their
parts fit together.
Now I wouldn't want themjudging the national because
they're not going to know thefire, but they have a third
element, right, soundness, typeand just shape and balance.
What's one of the first thingsyou walk into a ring?

(36:58):
What's one of the first thingsyou look at overall?
What's one of the first thingsyou look at when you're judging.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Shape and outline.
Shape and outline.
Shape and outline.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
That often defines the breed and it often defines
balance and it also really getsyou out of.
If you don't have thatsilhouette, and I mean totally
blacked out, you know when youcut out the.
I've got the cute littlepictures of our daughters that
someone did just their profilel1, solid color, and uh, it's so

(37:27):
cool because you don't worryabout all the bits, right, you
just look and go.
That's so symmetrical and whenyou see that balance, I've seen
many good dog whose profile inmy mind is destroyed by a loin
this much longer than its ribcage and that to me you can pick
up in that profile way toooften way too often in too many

(37:50):
rooms yeah, you know it's, it'sreally hard.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
One of my breeds is the Doberman, you know, and I
love them and I've had them formany years and probably will
always have one.
But you know, our breed isgetting longer and longer and
longer and it's very hard tofind one that's square and we
are a square breed, you know.
It's one of the five squarebreeds in the working group.
So then we just kind of startedaccepting it.

(38:18):
Well, it's a little long, butyou know it's a little long, but
it runs fast.
Yeah, it runs fast.
Yeah, exactly Same type ofthing.
So it's like we start.
You know I often and I'm sureyou do too, Wayne, but you know
I often will look at if there'sa fault, whether it's a front,
whether it's a rear, whetherit's.
You know, I say to myself okay,as a breeder, what can I fix in

(38:42):
one generation?
What can I breed this animal toand fix this in one generation?
Well, we know and I'm a frontnut, you're a front nut that you
can't fix a front in onegeneration.
There's so many moving parts toit and you can lose it in one
generation.
And I will say one thing peoplein Europe you know we talk

(39:02):
about the European dogs they'renot groomed as well and a lot of
them, you know, maybe don'tmove as well as we would like,
but let me tell you, they knowfronts and they keep fronts and
they have fronts over there.
We don't Our sporting dogs.
You can't find a front to saveyour life most of the time in
most of our breeds.
And it's so important, you know, and it's like why in Europe

(39:27):
are they getting it andunderstanding it and keeping it
and we're not?

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Because we love the straight front, sloping top line
, over-angulated behind.
It couldn't be any more wrong.
It wins every day of the weekand it drives me nuts.
If you've seen in irish centersin england and ireland, you've
got perfect shoulder lay back,you've got the length of upper

(39:52):
arm, which is the big key here.
Right that if we get all thislay back with a short upper arm
and that's not going anywhereeither there's no place to
extend that front leg and wetolerate it here, for for the
simple reason to make thissloping, when I see all these
pictures in magazines where theyput the dog on a rock, the

(40:12):
front feet on a rock, yeah, yeahyeah there's a sloping top line
.
I'm way up on the rock.
Now how does that look evenbetter?
You know not for me fancy yeah,yeah, let's really do that.
They're going to start breedingthem like that on a rock, but
um, well, you know so.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
So, going back to, like you know, fixing something
in one generation, I mean that'ssomething that I think that, as
judges and certainly asbreeders, that you know, if, if
you, if you're, if you have nofriends which I mean it's a
problem here You've got to startselecting.
You may not like this puppy'shead as well, you may not like
its tail set as well, but you'vegot to start selecting for

(40:53):
friends.
And the other thing aboutbreeders is that I don't why
especially newer breeders theythink if you take I was going to
say a straight fronted dog andthen a dog with a lot of front
angulation, it's going to be ablend.
It can be a blend.
No, you're going to get halfyour litter with straight
friends.
You're going to get half yourlitter with great friends.
So you keep your great friendsand you breed them to something

(41:14):
with a great friend.
They don't understand that it'snot a blend.
Okay, that's not how breedingis.
So if you're going to, you know, zoom in on something that we
need to correct over and overand over, you've got to find it,
select it and then be true toit.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
There's an anatomical issue that I just love to think
about and explain.
When I'm talking about frontssee this thing right here,
collarbone we all have them andthey connect our bodies to our
fronts.
So if we're down in aquadrupedal position, our arms
or our front legs right, they'reconnected right to.

(41:53):
It's amazing they're connectedall together right.
Dogs don't have these.
They don't have clavicles.
They're actually, they're theonly mammal that there's a
couple mammals that don't havethem to some sloth or something,
but mammals in general, uh,dogs, definitely no clavicles,
right.
So when they're, when you'retalking about constructing your

(42:14):
front, you've got the shoulderblade, you got the upper arm,
you got the legs, you got thefeet, you got all that ligament
and they're just hanging thereover the rib cage.
They're just hanging there withligament scapula scapula is
held on by muscle, it's.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
People think it's connected by bone, it's not
there's no's our scapulas heldtogether by these.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
They don't have that.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
How important is it to get all the length of those
elements together and centeredproperly on the dog for that
front to survive, and for somereason we just don't care about
that much anymore?
I sure do.
I want to see withers, elbows,feet and a straight line.
Withers, elbows, feet in astraight line.

(43:00):
In fact when I go down a lineafter I'm looking at general
outline, I'm looking for feetunder the withers in most breeds
not all of them, obviously, butthe ones that fall for it,
because without that you thecenter of gravity is off.
When you do that, if they seethese breeds of their front legs
in front under their noses,that's a good clue that it's not
under their withers.
You just drop a plumb line atthe withers, boop foot, elbow,
you're on line.

(43:20):
Probably a good start on thatfront.
Could be other issues, but atleast a good start.
But I don't know.
It just seems to be one ofthose trends that's been going
on forever and nobody cares.
You get a good front on anybreed.
You hang on to that forever.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Oh, I, you know, I'll forgive a lot for a good friend
.
I'll forgive a lot, I reallywill, because it's so important
and we lack it so much in theunited states, unfortunately I
try my best to reward, certainlyinsiders whenever I can, the um
.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
but your point is so good and strong about how
quickly can you change that inyour breed?
So without knowing, withouthaving bred any litters, without
knowing how important breedingworks and how that there are
issues or elements of a breedthat are easier to change than
others, you'll never come at itwith that point of view.

(44:13):
You'll miss that.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
I'm not saying you have to breed every breed, but
you have to know that certainthings are harder to get and
fronts is definitely one of them, definitely and you know, when
I was thinking about this, whenwe were talking about you know
what we're going to discusstoday I was thinking that how
many people all of us start withour first dog and we may never

(44:35):
show that dog.
It may be a pet on our couchfor its whole life, or we end up
at dog shows by some weird way.
We end up at dog shows.
You see the breeder saying,okay, if you want that puppy,
your butt's going to be at a dogshow and I'm going to call you
and drive you crazy until youget there, right, so we are so
in love with that first dog.
I could never really understandwhy people their first dog is

(44:59):
not quality and they come to thedog shows and they lose, and
they lose, and they lose andthey continue to show the dog.
And I started thinking aboutthat.
I thought, well, there'scertain breeds that well, number
one, you know you don't want tojust throw away your first dog.
I mean you can keep your firstdog as a pet and say, okay, now
I know I've been at the dogshows, I've been watching.

(45:20):
I think I know what I need tolearn.
Hopefully you get some anatomybehind you.
You talk to some breeders andexplain the different fronts,
whether it's a terrier front, asporting dog front, whatever
you're talking about.
But then you've got to have theguts or the knowledge and maybe
money plays into it to go outand find a better dog or buy a

(45:40):
better dog and kind of startover.
And a lot of people don't dothat and we're also limited by.
I'm originally from Californiafor most of my life.
You can only have two dogs.
You can't have three, four,five, six, ten.
The days of the old kennels aregone, long gone.
You're lucky if you can haveeven two dogs anymore in the
United States.

(46:00):
So you know you don't have theopportunity necessarily to go
out and buy or get a better dog,which I think you know I did
that.
I mean I bought my firstMalamute.
He, I finished him but hewasn't great.
And I I went to the firstnational specialty and I was
like, wow, there's all thesedogs and I started looking at

(46:20):
all of them and I kind offigured out what I wanted, what
direction I wanted to go, andboom, I bought another dog.
Not everybody does that, youknow.
I don't know what.
What is it in our charactersthat just make us decide I'm
just going to keep showing thisdog because I love it or I need
to buy a better dog.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Well, I think there's two elements and I just had
this situation recently, so it'skind of fresh in my mind.
One they might just like goingto dog shows win or lose.
They like the camaraderie, theylike the dogs, they like the
vibe.
They've met some friends andwhen I travel with them, maybe
they also do obedience oragility and they don't really
care.
I'm going to show them anyway.
Maybe they don't care, orthere's someone who doesn't know

(46:59):
and really needs to know.
Here's the problem.
At a recent show, well not toolong ago, richard Powell and I
both did a breed on Saturday andSunday.
And we both had a real closecall to make with this woman,
who was very well intended.
She was well put together, herdogs were immaculate,
beautifully trained and present,and she'd been going to

(47:21):
handling class every night, Iguess because this dog was ready
.
But it really didn't look muchlike the breed and you didn't
want to give it a championshippoint.
But then again, was it a CockerSpaniel?
Oh, the one I just pulled thebreed.
But yeah, yeah it was.
And so what we did is we bothspoke to her, not knowing the

(47:42):
other one did.
And then richard said she's sointerested, how about we get her
together?
And we both talked to her andit was unfortunate.
I hope she'll figure it outwhat to do.
I said well, there's a breederin this region.
It's got really nice dogs andshe's really nice.
And I think maybe this isbecause she said should I breed

(48:05):
this one?
We both said no, just, you'regoing to start backwards if you
do that.
You want to go find a goodbrood bitch?
And we said here's a woman inthis area that's got a lot,
maybe she can steer you to oneor find somebody for you.
And she said oh, and this is avery kind woman and I said uh,
what's the why not?
Because, well, this is herbreeding and I went for help and

(48:28):
she wasn't happy because Ididn't buy it from her.
I thought, man, that's a missedopportunity, right?
I?
missed so we gave her othernames to go talk to and I hear
she did and I hope she gets togo and start with, but she said
it's.
I'm embarrassing myself byshowing these dogs, even if I'm
getting points.
I shouldn't show it anymore,right, and we're both like I

(48:48):
wouldn't, unless you'd love tocome to the shows and just do it
for that.
But you have to understand themoney you're wasting doing this.
If you met somebody, we've gotto be way better at this as a
sport, at mentoring and gettingpeople good dogs.
Um, you know there's, I knowsome, there's some people in
certain breeds that I've knownfor years and maybe they're not

(49:09):
the most with it people or don'tdress the best or whatever.
No one ever gives them a gooddog one by one.
They get the worst one in thelitter and they make them, show
them so they can beat them andget a point.
That drives me nuts Everybodywho cares that and they have to
show the dedication of going toshows and learning and wanting

(49:29):
to learn.
But you don't have to give themtheir best one, but something
they can start with and that'sso important.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
You know, I don't know why this has been a problem
for decades, why this happens,why people decide, oh, I'm not
selling them a dog, you know,sometimes they don't even know
the person.
It's because Susie said youknow, I don't know why.
And then we have other breedersthat you know.

(49:57):
I won't say names, you'll knowwho I'm talking about.
That breed, several rare breedsthat are like okay, we have
four litters right now, we'llco-own, we'll help you, come
over, come, look at us.
I don't know how many people do.
I know if I were going to buyone of those rare breeds, I
certainly would be at theirfront door.

(50:17):
But we have this attitude, thishaughty attitude, you know, and
shame on us.
I mean we're overrun by doodlesand backyard breeders and part
of it is our problem because weshun a lot of people and shame
on us.
Shame on us, I mean.
I mean we're harming ourselvesreally.

(50:38):
I mean you got to give people achance, you know, because Susie
said so-and-so, don't sell it adog or whatever.
Now, if it's a problem to howthey take care of their dogs or
how their dogs live, absolutelynot.
But I, I do appreciate topbreeders that will give newbies
a chance.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
And those people you're talking about.
So group winners, puppies togroupers all the time and do
real well with them, and thathelps their breed and helps the
sport.
This is a topic that I think wecould really get into and we
have to about wrap it up for ourfirst episode here, but let's
think, keep this in mind fornext, next time, and talk about
how we can help as a sport, howwe can get good dog to people,

(51:17):
and what we should docollectively and individually to
try to keep people in the sportonce we get them there.
Kim, it's been wonderful.
It's been wonderful.
Thank you, same here.
Yeah, well, you know we got thefirst one in the books and I
can guarantee you, like judgingget a little better each time.

(51:38):
So there we go, go thousands ofmore episodes with you.
This will be fun.
Thanks again to the caninechronicle celebrating 50 years
of excellence.
That's a long time for theirsupport and we really enjoy
doing this and look forward toseeing you again next week.
For me and this wonderfulperson to my left, kimberly
meredith, good night, good night, see you soon.