December 7, 2023 • 54 mins
Imagine a world where all children, no matter their background, see themselves represented positively in the books they read. That's the world our guest, Dawn-Maria France , is working tirelessly to create. From the UK, Dawn-Maria uses her talent and platform to diversify the narrative of children's literature, ensuring that children from marginalized communities find their voices in the characters they encounter. She passionately shares her journey and underlines the significance of representation in shaping young minds.
Journalism, a tool that gives voice to the voiceless and holds power to account, is also a topic we delve into with Dawn-Maria. Her perspective as a Black journalist in the UK sheds light on the unique challenges and rewards that come with this noble profession. We traverse the landscape of free speech and its manifestation in social media, particularly in the wake of Elon Musk's takeover of Twitter. As we grapple with the balance between free speech and censorship, Dawn-Maria's insights lead us to understand how each of us can responsibly use these platforms to initiate positive change.
We also scrutinize the media's biased coverage of Meghan Markle and the racist backlash she faced from the public and her own family. This conversation unveils the hidden layers of racism prevalent in society and stresses the need for critical thinking in the information age. From analyzing the perception of racism in the US from an outside perspective to emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and care, my conversation with Dawn-Maria is an enlightening deep dive into poignant societal issues.
Show Credits:
Richard Dodds (Host/Producer): @Doddsism
Show Music: @IAmTheDjBlue
Podcast Website: StillTalkingBlack.com
Still Talking Black is a production of Crowned Culture Media LLC. All rights reserved.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Richard Dodds (00:00):
This is Still Talking Black, a show where we
discuss issues affectingblackness from a black point of
view.
I'm your host, Richard Dyes.
Today.
I'm joined by Dyle Maria, aneditor, a children's author and
a mental health advocate in theUnited Kingdom.
We talk about the ways that theUK and America are alike and
different, and some of theissues that she's faced growing
(00:22):
up in the UK.
Dawn-Maria France (00:23):
So, without further ado, my name is Dyle
Maria France, an editor ofNewsled Yorkshire Women's Life
magazine.
I'm also a children's author,broadcaster and mental health
campaigner, and I live inYorkshire in the UK.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
That's awesome.
You've done a lot of differentthings.
I didn't know that you weredoing kids books.
Dawn-Maria France (00:49):
Yes, I started them.
Well, my background beforebecame a journalist, I worked as
a youth worker.
So I used to work with childrenthat came from chaotic
backgrounds and I always lookedto elevate the children that I
worked with.
So I set about trying to findpositive images which would lift
(01:10):
up the children that I workedwith, because they came from
some of the most troublingbackgrounds where the parents
probably had alcohol abuse orwere quite poor because they
might have been on benefits orsocial aid.
And I was trying to find thekind of books that would elevate
the children that I was workingwith.
(01:30):
And I couldn't find those typesof books.
So I thought, well, I'll do someresearch into how to write
children's books and try andfind really uplifting characters
.
So the research took about fouryears and I worked with lots of
children's groups andorganisations and parents and I
went on quite a lot of writingcourses to get the tone and the
(01:53):
pitch just right for childrenand I developed a character
which is a very strong, nononsense, knows her own mind
little girl, and I made her froma family that wasn't a
conventional family.
She was adopted, so I wanted toreach out to some of the
children that I worked with toshow that families come in all
(02:14):
shapes and sizes and that youcan be strong as a little girl.
But I was taken aback by thefeedback on both sides of the
channel, both in America andalso in England.
The feedback has been amazingand that was very, very
privileged to get the kind offeedback from the children that
(02:35):
were reading the books as well.
They really liked thecharacters, they got it, they
understood that the characterswere strong.
And the second book I've got amixed race little girl in it
with her hair in plaid.
So black children and mixedrace children could see
themselves in that character andI hope to develop it, going
(02:56):
forward and bringing morediversity To characters from
different cultural backgrounds,going forward and new and
interesting stories as well.
So that's the plan taking thechildren's book forward.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
What kind of hairstyle is having a hair in
plaid?
So I've never heard of thatbefore.
Dawn-Maria France (03:15):
Oh, I think you call it braiding.
Do you call it braiding inAmerica?
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Oh, okay, yeah, we call it braids in America.
Dawn-Maria France (03:21):
Yeah, you call it braids.
Well, in Caribbean culture wecall it plaids, so kind of like
I've got my hair now just inplaids, but you call it braids,
so I really wanted the characterto have a natural hairstyle
that was synonymous with herculture.
So that's why I had the littlegirl with a hair in braids
(03:42):
plaids.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
That's kind of an amazing story that you couldn't
and I think the word that youuse was image, like you couldn't
find an image to show thesekids that came from such a rough
background that you had tocreate it.
Why, would you say, it's soimportant for kids to be able to
see images that are outside ofwhere they are now?
Dawn-Maria France (04:03):
Because the children that I worked with.
They came from some of thepoorest backgrounds and all they
had was that area and I triedto show them that there was life
outside of that area.
So I used to take the childrento the theater, I used to take
them for picnics.
I used to show them that justbecause they were from a poor
background, that didn't definewho they were.
(04:24):
That was their start, but theycould move beyond it.
So I was looking for charactersin children's books to elevate
the work that I was doing withthe children by lifting them up
and showing them there werealternatives.
They might have had the poorstart, but they could go on and
do something constructive withthe life and it's important
(04:46):
sometimes to see characters inbooks.
I know it was vital for me.
My mum went out of her way toget a book called Ebony, which
is an American magazine youmight be familiar with.
But seeing Ebony in ourhousehold and seeing those
beautiful black women, thoseblack people in America who were
doing amazing things, was sopowerful to me to have that
(05:10):
magazine.
I knew what a difference itmade for me and I knew it would
make a difference for thechildren that I was in charge of
.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
That's something I think that's something sometimes
we end up taking for granted.
Is that representation?
And I even think about whenDisney released a little mermaid
and it had a black aerial andhow much of an uprising it was
and some people that were notblack were saying why do they
have to make her black?
Now my daughter doesn't havelike she can't relate to aerial
(05:40):
and it's like well, for a lot ofpeople from different cultures.
A lot of times we don't get tosee ourselves in like the
characters, whether it's acartoon or whether it's a big
budget film.
It's just like recently.
Now we're just starting to seecharacters like Black Panther
and different characters likethat.
(06:01):
That really represents us andit's not Black Cinema, is
mainstream cinema and it makes abig difference being mainstream
versus being somethingspecifically just for black
people.
Dawn-Maria France (06:13):
I think that's really amazing, it's
absolutely true.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Let's circle back.
So for you.
Why did you choose journalism?
What made you be attracted tojournalism?
Dawn-Maria France (06:27):
I think I always loved writing.
I always loved words.
I always looked books.
I loved the fact that you couldpick up a book and not know
about the subject and by thetime you finished the book, it
had educated you.
I loved the way wordstransported me to different
places and took me to differentexperiences and I always loved
(06:48):
having books around.
And my mum, when I was younger,she took me to the Caribbean to
meet my uncle because she knewthat I loved words and I loved
books, I loved writing, and shetook me to see my uncle in the
Caribbean and he was ajournalist and for me, that
whole representation of seeingsomeone who looked like me, who
(07:08):
was doing what I wanted to do,was it, was huge to me.
It was so amazing for my youngself to see that and I knew that
word meant a lot and they did alot.
And I knew articles andjournalists made a difference
because they went to tell thestories.
They were entrusted by peopleto tell their stories and talk
(07:30):
about their lived experience andit was something that burned
deep inside and I knew that Ineeded to do it.
I needed to be entrusted totell other people's stories and
to write articles that wouldmake people think, and I think I
was born to do it.
I'd never wanted to do anythingelse.
I'd never imagined myself doinganything else.
It was something I'd wanted todo since I was about six and I
(07:55):
remember my aunt saying thatwhen I was about four I was
writing something in a diary andshe was correcting it, and she
said that I was so angry.
My four-year-old self thoughthow dare you correct my writing?
And she said she just knew.
But what was amazing was my mumused to write to my granny, who
(08:16):
was in the Caribbean, every weekand I must have scribbled on
the letter.
And then my granny in theCaribbean cut out my scribble
and she put it in the photoalbum.
So that is my first bit ofwriting.
And I can't tell you how itfelt, going to the Caribbean and
seeing my first bit of writingas a baby that my gran had kept
(08:40):
all those years and I believeit's still in the family album.
So that's my first bit ofwriting.
It's almost like she knew thatI was going to go on to be a
writer, because why else wouldshe have kept that scribble?
You'd have thought she wouldhave just got rid of it and cut
it out and bind it, but sheactually kept it and that
(09:01):
touched me deeply.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
That's amazing I mean , that's amazing all the way
around how you got inspired.
Well, you got reinforced byseeing your uncle doing
something, someone that lookedlike you, doing the same thing
that you wanted to do, and it'sjust like, oh wow, like I'm on
the right path.
That's an amazing thing to see.
Dawn-Maria France (09:21):
It was because the school that I went
to it was a predominantly whiteschool and there wasn't that
many black people going to theschool and the school it was
quite a racist school.
Now I'm looking back I didn'tsee it at the time because you
just don't see that, and theykind of put us into boxes.
The white children that werewell off, they were going to go
(09:42):
to university and the sky wasthe limit.
But for the black children whowere from neighborhoods that
weren't as affluent, the sky wasour limit and we couldn't
actually get to it, whereas thewhite children were pushed
towards university and we werepushed towards kind of like
(10:03):
domestic, kind of jobs, you know, like caring and to be like
porters and such like.
They kind of wrote us off at ayoung age and didn't encourage
us.
So for my mum to actually showme someone who looked like me
was very important because Iwasn't getting that support at
(10:24):
the school.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Isn't that something like?
I think me being an American?
Sometimes, I think, as a blackAmerican, I think that that's an
inherent American problem thatas a young black child whether
they say it with words or justwith action you are told that
(10:47):
you are limited to what you cando and it's kind of like
reinforced, it's like sky isn'tthe limit for you.
But to hear you in a wholeother country say that you
experience the same thing milesand miles away from me, is that
it's like wow, it's really noteven just an America problem.
Dawn-Maria France (11:07):
No, no, it's not at all.
And the saddest thing for mewas that Caribbean people were
invited to come to the UK, tocome to England from the islands
to build up the country afterthe second world war.
They were invited but when myparents came here they couldn't
get anywhere to rent.
Other black people had to buyhouses to rent to other black
(11:29):
people because they couldn'tactually get anywhere to live.
And also what I noticed wasJewish people started to open
factories to employ people likemy mum and dad, so other
minorities had to employminorities who were invited here
.
But in England we've had theBlack Panthers.
(11:52):
We've had our own civil rightsmovement in the UK that ran
between 1968 to 1973, so we'vehad the struggle as well.
When the Caribbean people cameto England, a lot of them found
themselves in low-skilled jobs,so there was a lot of tension
(12:14):
with immigrants.
There was a lot of interracialtension as well and violence
between the police who wereharassing black men at the time,
and that led to the 1958Notting Hill race riots.
So in England we've had our ownBlack Panthers.
We've had our own struggles toget some kind of support just to
(12:38):
live your normal life, andwe've been fighting against
police harassment and brutality,against our own racism in this
country.
So the struggle has been notonly in America, but in the UK
as well.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
That's something sad to have to share, that even you
can't get away from it.
No matter where you are, I feellike people that are skin-toned
are constantly having to fightfor our equality.
I actually got a chance to lookat some of the articles that you
wrote about that.
It's just why is it soimportant?
(13:17):
Because I feel like, especiallyin America, I can speak on it
specifically, but I feel likejournalism is really, I feel
like it's in crisis just becauseso many different things are
going on.
Like you know, with theprevious president, he put a lot
of journalistic integrity tothe side and he made people
(13:37):
really question journalism whenit didn't.
When journalism doesn't agreewith how you, how your feelings
are, it's in question not onlythat, but like, especially like
I know here, like people arereading less newspaper, it's
more social media where they gettheir news and their
information.
How have you adapted in thatkind of environment to make, to
(14:00):
make yourself and journalismstill relevant, because so many
stories and stuff like goodinformation that you're trying
to get to people.
Dawn-Maria France (14:08):
Well, I always try to keep my finger on
the pulse.
I don't write articles that arenot challenging.
I write articles to make youthink.
I do a lot of research to makepeople understand what's
actually going on and I writeabout things that matter.
So I've written about black menand mental health because the
conversation wasn't aconversation that I felt was
(14:31):
being examined or talked aboutor really written about to the
extent because I usually do deepdive when I do my articles, I
do lots and lots of research andI don't.
I'm not writing for people tothink it's popular.
I'm writing to get people toask questions, to put
(14:53):
information out there for themto know what's going on, to
question the narrative, and thefeedback I've had is amazing.
You have to adapt.
So of course, I've donearticles for the Huffington Post
, which is online because I'vetrained in newspaper, but of
course the new media is online,so I've had to adapt to write
(15:14):
articles that are online as well.
But I mean things that reallyconcern me.
It's not just writing aboutrace issues, which I do, because
obviously I know a lot aboutthat, but I write about mental
health and social issues as well, and I write a lot about
politics, so my range of writingis quite vast.
(15:35):
But things that concern me arethat black people, especially
young black men, are four timesmore likely to be detained under
the mental health act in the UK.
And then research shows thatadult black community is 20%
more likely to experienceserious mental health problems
(15:55):
like depression or anxiety.
And then when you look atwhat's causing that, a lot of
the time it's stress and it'sracism.
And then the government knowsabout this because the
government releases papers tosay that there's more black
people in the system.
For example, uk Home Office.
(16:16):
They published in May, the 26thof May this year.
They said that black people arealmost five times likely than
white people to be detainedunder the mental health act 342
detentions for every 100,000people, compared with 72% for
(16:39):
every 100,000 people.
So black and other ethnicgroups have got the highest
detention rates in psychiatricwards and being detained under
the mental health act.
And then the lowest rate is why?
Irish at 62% for every 100,000.
So there's a crisis.
And what annoys me is the UKgovernment knows there's a
(17:03):
crisis, but they're not doinganything about it.
So then it's left tojournalists to expose that and
say, look, we've got a problem,we need to have a conversation
about it.
So there is a role forjournalists to tell the truth
about what's happening.
I know that Donald Trump wasalways trying to say that the
(17:25):
journalists were against him andwhatnot, but you need to have
in a democracy, you need to havefree speech and you need to
have journalists that are truthsayers, who are tackling
difficult subjects, and that'swhere our role is.
We need to have journalists tohold the government to account,
to hold organisations to account.
(17:48):
Otherwise, what's the point ifyou don't have journalists to
talk about what's happening, toresearch, to actually put
information out there, to haveconversations and to have
debates?
And, of course, I've had toadapt to use the new media, like
social media, to get thestories out there.
So, as a journalist, I've hadto move with the times because
(18:10):
my background was newspaper, butI've had to move with social
media.
So you do have to adapt.
But I'm proud with the kind ofarticles that I've done because
they are hard hitting, they'rewell researched and they do get
people to think as well.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
So there's going to always be a role for someone
like me to actually get thosestories out there and to have
those conversations andencourage those debates and I
think that is a fundamentalpurpose of journalism is to
really shine a light on thingsthat might not necessarily get
(18:45):
that light and like for someonelike you.
I know that you do a ton ofresearch for everything that you
do and it's like sometimes, sothat makes sometimes it takes
longer.
How do you combat like peoplejust spewing things?
I mean like maybe it'sdifferent in England, but here
somebody could just saysomething and if enough people
see it, then it starts to becomefact for a lot of people and
(19:08):
then when the well researchedpeople come out and say no, no,
no, no, that's actually not howit is, it's already running
cycle and it's kind of hard topull back the wall and be like
hey guys, y'all been believingthe wrong thing, this is the
facts.
The facts usually get far lesstraction from what I've seen
like, especially recently.
Yeah, that's how do you combatthat.
Dawn-Maria France (19:31):
Well, the thing is, we'd things like the
Huffington Post and otherpublications that I've written
for, which have got a reallygood reputation for fact finding
, for actually gettingjournalists who will do the
groundwork, and what I'venoticed is, since Elon Musk has
taken over Twitter as well,there is a counter narrative for
(19:53):
every negative story.
There is someone like me who'swriting with the facts of what's
actually going on.
So I feel quite hopeful becauseI noticed the platform is
getting better and there is alot of people listening and a
lot of people doing research anda lot of people that are
listening to journalists likemyself who are putting the truth
(20:14):
out there.
Because I usually put links inmy articles where they can click
, because if it's online, theycan click on the article to see
where the source is from, sothey can see that it has been
fact checked and that whatthey're seeing from me is quite
authentic.
Because I do a lot of deepdiving and it does take quite a
(20:35):
while to do your articles,because I don't want to miss out
on vital bits of research forthe articles that I write.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Yeah, I've seen you said Elon Musk, since he took
over Twitter and renamed it to X.
Yeah, it's funny because Ireally kind of had to step back
from that platform just becausethe information that I was
getting fed started to change alittle bit.
Like stuff that I wasinterested in kind of became
(21:05):
fewer and fewer, and then stuffthat I wasn't so interested in
and stuff that just didn'tnecessarily pass the taste test
was getting fed to me and I waslike I don't know what he's
doing.
I know he's taking away somechecks and balances, so it
almost feels like that is asocial experiment going wrong.
(21:25):
How can I change this?
Because I feel like it's somuch power and media and that's
one of the reasons why it's soimportant for the separation
between having, like agovernment and then media and
it's almost like an additionalcheck and balance, just because,
if we've seen, in countrieswhere the government controls
the media there's a lot, theycan kind of bend the community
(21:49):
to their will.
You know, to a certain degree.
Dawn-Maria France (21:53):
That's true, but what I've noticed on
Twitter since Elon Musk took itover is the voices that were
pushed off, the voices thatwould be saying things that he
may not want to hear but weretruthful.
And now, coming back ontoTwitter, so it feels like it's
it's kind of evening out,because those voices were
(22:14):
removed from Twitter, so younever heard that side of the
argument.
You just heard one side, whichwas probably leaning more
towards the left, maybe towardsthe Democrats, but you didn't
hear other voices.
So I've noticed that you arenow hearing other voices.
So it feels like you're gettingthat bit of a balance which I
didn't see before under theprevious owners.
(22:36):
So people that were just takenoff because their views might
not have been towards the left,as it were.
Now you're seeing otherpeople's voices and hearing
other people's voices as well,which is a good thing, because
now you're getting a bit of abalance and that's good to see.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
I want.
It's like free speech is such atricky thing, especially for
like something like a socialmedia network, just because I
feel like money instantly moveslike one way or another,
depending on who has the moneyand who has the influence.
Like you can move the needleeither way and I just think it's
.
It's a.
(23:16):
I think it's just a delicatebalance to walk between free
speech, because if I don't likeit, then it's wrong and get it
off.
But if I said it and you don'tlike it, that's free speech,
like it's such a, it's just itall, it all, in that I mean
that's the left and the right.
I'll put it on everybody,democrats, republicans.
It's almost like if I don'tagree with it, then it's wrong
(23:38):
and free speech doesn't matter.
But if you don't agree with me,then it's free speech and you
need to get over it so I can seewhere you're coming from.
Dawn-Maria France (23:46):
Yeah Well, what I noticed is some people
who didn't speak with thenarrative and who were
completely removed off Twitterhave now got their accounts
installed.
So now you're able to hear whatthey've got to say about a wide
range of issues, whether youagree with them or not.
At least you're able to hearthem, whereas before Elon Musk
(24:09):
took over, these people werebasically canceled, so you never
got to hear their voice or whattheir opinion was about the big
things that are going on in theUSA and also in England.
For example, tonight on Twitter, bill Gates's car was
surrounded by ordinary membersof the public who were calling
(24:34):
for him to be jailed or whatever.
Now, before you'd never seethat.
You would not have seen thatclip about Bill Gates.
Before Elon Musk got it, thatwould have been quietly removed.
But now you're able to see it.
So things like that you're ableto see and hear about people's
(24:54):
opinions, whether you'repalatable to it or not, or
whether you're on the left orthe right.
At least you can hear bothsides, whereas before you just
couldn't.
You just heard one side of thenarrative.
But I think that free speech isin danger.
People feel like they have tocensor what they're saying.
They're living in very bizarretimes and I would like it to at
(25:17):
some point come to an end wherewe could speak freely about
whatever the issue is that wewant to talk about, because it's
fundamental in a democracy.
That's one of the foundingcause is to have free speech and
to have a democracy and to havefreedom of choice and freedom
to speak as you want to.
(25:37):
We don't live in a dictatorship, but sometimes it feels that
way because the government inboth America and in England
don't feel strong enough toactually allow the people to be
who they want to be and to betheir authentic self.
So we still have to push to haveour voices, because we've been
(25:58):
through a lot as people, andparticularly as black people.
We've struggled.
We've had people like MartinLuther King, who's fought for us
to have this conversation andto be able to be our authentic
self.
So we need to be mindful thatwe need to continue to speak our
mind and speak our truth,because it's vital to do that,
(26:19):
because we've come from too farand we've travelled for too long
to be in a position to speakabout our experience, and we owe
it to ourselves and ourancestors and all the people
that went before us and we oweit to our children's children to
be able to have our voice, andthat's why it's important for us
(26:39):
to speak about what's going on,and I take it seriously.
As a writer, I know that it'sentrusted to me from my
ancestors for me to continue towrite about things.
It means a great deal to me andI take it seriously.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, social media free speech is like a whole.
That's a whole, like that's sucha big rabbit hole because
that's like a whole bunch oftopics in one, just because I
feel like one of the biggestthreats to free speech is the
fact that you can have somebodygo and say something that's
untrue and it could get so muchtraction and people will believe
it.
Like even when, like I rememberbefore Elon Musk bought Twitter,
(27:17):
he would say something and itwould start to affect the free
market enterprise because hewould say something.
Then the markets would shift andthat would really mess up, put
in jeopardy some of thelivelihoods of some of those
workers is working for thosecompanies, because it would dip
up or down from just a tweet andyou think about something
that's so powerful and it's justlike from a liability
(27:42):
standpoint, it's like nobodywants to be responsible, like
the private corporations don'twant to be responsible to
government probably shouldn't beresponsible, but there probably
should be some guidelines putin place.
But I don't know how it is inEngland, but in America we have
been really slow to keep up withthe technology and being able
to govern the technology as itcomes and it's far out patient,
(28:05):
I mean like one of the scariestthings now is artificial
intelligence, and I mean even inlike writing, like they people
are writing with artificialintelligence and doing law or
artificial intelligence and it'sbeen it's starting to cause
some problems because, likethey're finding, like sometimes
AI just makes up stuff.
So it's going to be aninteresting next couple of years
(28:26):
seeing how governments figurethat out.
Dawn-Maria France (28:31):
Yeah, I think we Twitter and with other
social media spaces.
I would rather the governmentstay out of that space, because
the government's got their ownagenda in some respects and I
would rather that space.
Even if people write on Twitterwhich might not be palatable to
me at least if they have thatspace to do that and have that
(28:54):
expression, I would rathersupport people having that
freedom to write.
Even if it's not for me, thenhave the government have their
claws in it, because thegovernment could probably
manipulate it.
So I would prefer it to nothave government influences.
For example, you look at China,where they're actually
(29:14):
governing what people can say onsocial media and if it's
against the government, they canuse the social credit because
the person didn't have the rightthought or they didn't have the
right phraseology and it wasagainst the government narrative
.
I would rather have it separate,like it is, without the
government interference, becausenobody wants a social credit
(29:35):
system where the governmentcould tell you how to think, how
to talk and what you should orshouldn't say.
No one wants a dictatorship.
So we need to fight to keepsocial media out of government
control and from what I've seenfrom Musk, yes, he's got quite a
few things wrong, but it's goodto see people who were thrown
off the platform back on theplatform just to hear their
(29:59):
point of view, which you may ormay not agree with.
But you need to have thecounter narrative, to listen to
other people and just hear othervoices and other opinions.
You can't have just one side ofthe argument.
You need to have the whole sideof the argument, so then you
can make an informed choice, andthat's what I think Elon Musk
(30:19):
has brought to the table.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Yeah, I can understand your point of view.
I definitely do Like I don'tnecessarily totally agree with
the Elon Musk stuff, but Idefinitely do get your point and
it's very, it's verygeneralistic.
Just because you're like,whatever the other side like,
whether I agree with it or not,I at least people need to at
least be able to hear it andmake up their own minds.
But I wish everybody was asthoughtful as you.
(30:45):
Even when I see stuff that Iagree with, I do try to look it
up just to make sure it's truebefore I take it as doctrine.
You know what I mean.
But everybody doesn't do thatand I think the scariest part is
that a lot of people don'tcritically think anymore.
And that's what makes me feel alittle bit, because somebody
could say something andeverybody don't always use their
best judgment.
(31:05):
They don't fact check, they useone source and that's bad for
both sides.
You see, either you use aleftist place or a rightist
place and whatever they say,you're going to take it at face
value and that's going to be lawand I don't think either one of
those are good.
Dawn-Maria France (31:20):
That's true.
I do encourage people tocritical think and to not just
take it on board but to actuallydo your own research and find
out more about whatever theconversation is.
I mean, I always do that anyway, probably because I'm a person
who critically thinks, and I'venoticed a few people online are
doing that more and more, thatthey're seeing something and
(31:41):
then they're going away andlooking it up.
So you've seen people doingthat.
I mean I'd like to see morepeople doing it, but I have seen
a trickle of people actuallydoing that more looking into
things, questioning.
You need to question things aswell.
It's always healthy for youmentally, physically, otherwise
to question whatever thenarrative is and find out and
(32:05):
follow what it is that's beentold to you why is it being told
to you and sometimes follow themoney trail as well to find out
exactly what's behind thenarrative.
Sometimes you have to peel backthe layers to see what the real
story is.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, no, I totally, I totally agree with you.
And speaking of media, we kindof talked about this before.
I'm so curious as someone inthe States, like I was really
surprised when Megan Markle,Mary, Prince Harry I did not
expect it to be so much backlashwas.
(32:45):
I mean, that was surprising tome as someone in the United
States.
Was that surprising to you whenthat started to happen?
Dawn-Maria France (32:54):
Well, when Megan actually started dating
Prince Harry, she did seem toget a lot of love from the
British public and it turns out,from what I read, that it looks
like she and Prince Harry willbe coming really popular.
So it sounds like there mighthave been briefing against them
(33:15):
because the can't be morepopular than what's going to be
the king in the future.
That's what it feels like.
So then it felt like they werethen played as some kind of you
know awful people and all thedirt started to stick on them.
But I did see some racist postsabout Megan.
(33:36):
I mean, there was one that Ithought was absolutely
incredible.
So this woman said I thoughtMegan was Italian, I didn't know
she was black, as if to say sowhat?
So she's black.
And I remember reading in thepaper they had a picture of
Megan and her mom, doria, and atno point in this article would
(33:59):
they say that this was her mom.
They kept saying this isMegan's friend, who is a yoga
teacher and a social worker.
But they had a huge picture ofher white dad and it was at the
end of the article, the very end.
It said this is Megan's mom andit was like what is this.
It was almost like the playedher as the angry black woman
(34:23):
kind of narrative, which Ithought was ridiculous and a lot
of people said her race mighthave been an impact in that you
know this black woman who hasher own career, who's clearly
strong, who knows her own mind.
You know they almost made itsound like she had taken this
(34:43):
white guy hostage and hecouldn't get away from the big,
angry black woman and it waslike what are you doing with
this narrative?
It's just ridiculous and I'mglad that Megan kept her counsel
.
I'm glad that, regardless toall the noise that was around
her portraying her in thisridiculous light, that she
(35:07):
managed to keep herself strong,not have some kind of mental
health breakdown because thepressure and the noise around
her.
I mean I remember watching them.
It was like a breakfast programand this woman phoned in.
It was one of those wheremembers of the public could
phone in and the person phonedin and they said I hate Megan
(35:31):
and they don't know her.
And then the the host said well, why do you hate her?
And the person put the phonedown and it was like how are you
hating this woman?
You don't know who she is andit's just ridiculous.
There's just so much noise aboutMegan being painted as this
dreadful person for falling inlove with the prince and then
(35:52):
make out that he's been capturedby it and he was in.
He's actually been a soldier,so he's not being captured by
anybody.
This is quite a strongcharacter who fought in Iraq.
You know he's not beingcaptured by the big black woman.
It's just, oh, it's just.
(36:12):
It actually annoys me by theactual noise around it.
And then you've got the uncleAndrew, who's a very sinister
character who's friends ofEpstein.
So I would have thought hewould have got more criticism
than a black woman who's marriedthe prince.
(36:33):
It's just so.
Sometimes it feels like racismdoes raise its head, because
sometimes I wonder if she waswhite, I don't think she'd have
got that kind of aggravation.
And there seems to be a lot ofpeople lining up, including her
own family there, of no help atall.
The dad won't shut up thesisters a bit sinister herself.
(36:56):
You know she's got no right tobe going after Megan.
When her own daughter gotmarried, didn't invite her to
the wedding and invited Megan,but that didn't get reported
because you know that doesn'tfit the narrative and her
sisters can smell the money.
So she's looks like she's been.
(37:17):
I don't know.
It looks like someone might bebankrolling.
I don't think she's got thefunds to be suing.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Megan, didn't she write a book or something like
one of the sisters?
Yeah, she was supposed to?
Dawn-Maria France (37:30):
Yeah, she was supposed to have written a
book Quity Sizing Megan and thenit looks like she's suing Megan
as well and it soundsridiculous.
But I remember someone sayingsomething in the newspaper and
they were saying well, the blackside of the family are being
very dignified.
It just seems to be the whiteside of the family who were
carrying on, you know, likeTrailer Park type of people.
(37:54):
Really they don't seem to haveany kind of sense.
And I watched something wherethe dad they said to Megan's dad
, would you stop selling storieson it if it meant you could
meet the grandchildren and startto repair your relationship?
And you know he said no, hesaid he wouldn't, he said that
(38:15):
Megan owed him and he soundedlike he was going to continue to
get money off the back of her.
So if that's the dad's intent,you can see why the relationship
is broken down.
Because the mum, doria, she'snever, ever, to my knowledge,
sold any stories about Megan,the children, prince Harry,
she's had a very dignified wayof how she conducts herself and
(38:40):
I think that's why she's stillin Megan's life and I believe
they refer to Doria as the rock.
So she's allowed to see hergrandchildren and she's built up
a lovely relationship with herdaughter and her son-in-law.
But the dad's is too busy sortof selling stories and I think
(39:00):
he's short-sighted as well,because he could stop all this
tomorrow.
And what's the point Sellingstories is missing out and
watching the grandchildren growup and ask for the sister.
I mean regardless to what thesister says.
Her black half sister marriedthe prince.
Just throwing that out there.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Yes, it's, I think, the most point thing that you
said, that somebody thought shewas Italian and they thought one
way about her.
And then, when they found outshe was black, it's like, ooh,
like I don't know the sameperson who didn't change any,
and I'm wondering how much like?
Once, as the relationship gotmore serious, more people
(39:42):
probably started to check thebackground and I was like, oh,
she's not actually like Italianor something.
She's actually.
She's not even.
You can't even say mixed race,right, she's mixed.
She's a little bit of this, alittle bit of that.
They go straight to black.
She's black.
So therefore, everything is bad.
That's kind of that's kind ofcrazy, and I feel like that's
(40:04):
how it tends to be, Like youcould talk on the phone with
somebody and maybe like yourbest friend, and then you meet
them and it's like ooh, I didn'tknow you were black.
Like that changes everything.
Oh, it does.
This is crazy how the worldworks.
Dawn-Maria France (40:17):
And the thing with Megan is she's always
been filmed with her mom.
You know she's always.
She said that when she wasyounger I don't know how young
she was, but her mom was tryingto get a car space and a white
woman used the N word to her momand her mom was in tears and
the young Megan cradled her momand said mom, it's okay, Don't
(40:41):
worry about it.
So Megan has seen thisfirsthand, hearing this racial
terminology, this disgustingword used to her mom, and she
was there and she saw that.
And when Megan was younger andher mom was pushing it in a pram
, people thought that her momwas the nanny and people would
(41:02):
question her mom about thiswhite looking child and all this
.
And Megan knows all this.
And Megan as well has had allthis kind of micro, passive
aggressive, because Prince Harrysaid he never knew about micro
aggression until he met Meganand that she educated him about
(41:23):
micro and passive aggressive,which we've all experienced.
I've experienced it myself.
So she's been able to advisehim about what it's like,
regardless to the fact that shelooks so pale.
You know, she sees herself as awoman of color.
She said it in numerousspeeches and she's not ashamed
of her mom.
She's written in articles.
My mom is an African Americanwho's got locks, small locks, in
(41:48):
her hair.
That's how she describes hermom.
So I think maybe there was anarrative for her to try and
pretend.
But she has not.
And to me she's a strong blackwoman and she's someone you know
to be held up, because I don'tthink I could have put up with
the scrutiny, the harassmentthat she gets day in and day out
(42:09):
.
It's just ridiculous.
I don't know how anyone couldcope with that.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah, it's tough.
I feel like England and youguys' media is like so much more
intense, Like when you guysfocus, especially when it comes
to the Royal Family.
Like I remember when PrincessDiana died and even before that,
everybody was so focused onwhat Diana was doing and I was
like, wow, like this is, this iscrazy Like this is like like
media sometimes can just go socrazy on the subject and we
(42:38):
forget that the people that wefollow, like that, they're still
.
They're still just people.
They gotta go through the samestruggles, but they also got to
deal with the added pressure ofbeing in the limelight the way
that they are.
Dawn-Maria France (42:50):
Absolutely.
And Megan is strong.
You know.
You look at when she, when shewas younger, when she was
campaigning for various things,I mean this is quite a strong
character, you know going onnational television talking
about the, the cereal packet orthe washing up power, and she
(43:12):
needs to be more inclusive.
So she was a natural leaderfrom since she was 13.
And she talks about when shewent for acting jobs sleeping in
her car.
So she knows about gettingrejections from casting sleeping
in her car, having not muchmoney, only having enough money
for petrol to get to the nextaudition.
(43:34):
So she wasn't born with asilver spoon in their mouth.
She knows what it's like.
So she is real.
And I think that's why he wasattracted to her, because he had
all the other women maybeprincesses and whatnot but he
chose her and this is the womanthat he married and has children
with.
And I think we need to respecthis decision and move on,
(43:55):
because there's enough thingsgoing on in the world for us to
be so obsessed with this couplewhen the whole world is yeah,
the whole world is changingbefore our eyes and I think we
should be more concerned withwhat's happening in our
neighborhoods, in our countries,as opposed to this rich couple
(44:15):
who fell in love and got marriedand had children.
Just leave them to get on withtheir life and to live their
best life and to bring up thechildren the way they want to.
And let's concentrate withwhat's actually happening around
the world, because there's alot happening.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah, it's not like she was broke when she met him.
Dawn-Maria France (44:35):
No, I mean she was in suits.
I mean I've not seen suits thatoften, but when I've seen it
and she's been in it.
She has yeah, she has beenparticularly good.
I've watched it a few times andshe had her own money, she had
her own career.
She didn't marry him to tosponge off him.
She had made her own money inher own right and she made it
(44:58):
her way.
And it's clear that she has agood relationship with her mom
as well.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
As a suits fan, the only thing that bothered me when
she married the prince was thatshe had to get ridden off a
suit, so like that was thesaddest part for me.
It's like they rule off twocharacters because of that.
But I get it.
No, I totally get it.
You got to follow, you got todo it and make you happy.
Dawn-Maria France (45:21):
Absolutely, and she does seem happy now that
she's a mum and she's met herprince technically.
But what was really, reallywhat really made me laugh is
they had like a realityprogramme in England where they
got someone to pretend he wasPrince Harry and he was.
(45:42):
It was like the bachelor.
It was that kind of programme.
Richard Dodds (45:45):
If you're familiar with the bachelor.
Dawn-Maria France (45:47):
Yeah, so it was like that.
So he pretended he was theprince and all these women were
trying to win his attention andin the end he chose this white
woman who was blonde, with blueeyes, and then he had to say I'm
not the prince and whatnot, andthey decided to split the money
(46:08):
, but in reality the princewould have chosen the black
woman, because all the blackwomen that was fine for this
man's attention he got rid of,but in reality he would have
chosen one of them.
I just thought that was quitefunny.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
So we kind of talked about this before, like when we
talked previously from yourperspective, someone that's
outside of the United States,how do you see, how do you view
racism in the US from the UK?
Dawn-Maria France (46:42):
In the US it feels more like in the US
people will tell you that theydon't want.
They don't want you in thecompany, the more direct it
feels like, whereas in Englandit's all micro passive
aggressive where you know.
You know that they know they'rebeing racist, but it's hard to
(47:03):
prove it.
But it looks like in Americathey're in your face so you
actually know that they don'tneed, they don't want you in
their company or whatever.
Whereas in this country, likefor example, years ago, I phoned
up for a job but obviously I'vegot very British voice, but
(47:23):
then when I turned up the manwas so disappointed to see that
this voice belong to this colourthat I knew straight away that
he had an issue with having ablack person in the company.
I mean, he made all the usualexcuses but I knew definitely I
(47:44):
could read the room and I knewthat's one of his perception.
Whereas in America I get theimpression that you would know
before you wasted time toactually jump through hoops to
go to the interview.
Is that the case or do youstill?
Do you have micro passiveaggressive as well in the US?
Speaker 3 (48:03):
I think we get the full range.
I think a lot more times you'llsee the micro microaggressions,
like I think it's a pretty newthing for people to kind of
speak their mind Like oh, wedon't like black people, like
that's more, like I mean, I feellike it's always been there,
because you think about the waythat the United States was born,
they like it's always been thatyou know, like slavery and then
(48:28):
, like you know, like our civilrights movement over here.
So it's always been kind of athing.
You know, like you could diefrom being this color.
That's far.
I don't know if that's like, ifthat happens outside of here,
but over here it's like you getcaught in the wrong spot, like,
especially back during the civilrights movement day, you would
(48:48):
die and you wouldn't hearanything about anything like
that.
But now it's a.
You know most people want tosay it to your face like that,
but it's levels Like it really,like you see, like
microaggressions most of thetime and then, depending on
where you go, it gets moreaggressive and more overt than
(49:10):
other times.
So I was curious to see, justbecause I wonder how, because
you know, when you're not in aplace, just like I'm not in
England, like you know.
Like all I know to go by is allof the all the English shows
that I watch or anything thatcomes in the news, and you know
the type of stuff that's in thenews isn't always the thing that
(49:30):
really accentuates what acountry is like, or like a
country, a state, a city oranything.
So I was just really curious tosee like what like from outside
someone that's outside of theUnited States how they view
racism in the United States.
Richard Dodds (49:48):
I had somebody.
I oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Dawn-Maria France (49:53):
No, I always got the impression that you
were more direct.
Because in England, becauseit's micro and passive
aggressive, it's almost like agame.
I always I find the micro,passive aggressive is clever
racism.
So my parents, they were toldthat interviews we don't want
you because you're black and wedon't want a black person in
this company.
(50:13):
They were told that to the faceuntil the race relation act
came in where they knew theycouldn't say it directly because
it was against the law.
But now I would have to go forthe interview.
They know they don't want totake me because of my color, but
they let me go through theinterview.
They let me go through thepanel, they let me waste time
(50:34):
knowing they don't want to giveyou the job because you are
black.
So you're almost having to playmind games and sometimes I feel
like my color goes into the roomfirst and then I have to fight
all the nonsense, all the racismand all the stereotypes
afterwards.
So it's like my color walks infront of me and then I have to
(50:55):
knock down any of theirperceived perceptions.
And sometimes it is quitetiring because you think I'd
hoped at this point in life,with so many families being
blended families, that it wouldbe a lot easier because a lot of
people are now in mixedfamilies, whether that's a white
person with a black person orvice versa, or someone who's
(51:18):
black with an Asian, so it'squite blended but we're still
going through the same nonsensethat was happening before.
A lot of families got blendedand I think I'm quite looking
away because my partner's black.
So when these things present, Ican talk to someone who looks
like me, who gets it, and I canhave those conversations because
(51:38):
he knows what I'm talking aboutand I feel that gives me
strength in that respect.
And I think sometimes you've gotto have the strength not to let
people's perception harm you,so you kind of have to look
after yourself, make sure thatyou've got some resilience, be
able to self-care as a shield ofprotection, just to protect
(52:03):
your own mental health and togive you strength and clarity.
So there is this saying byGandhi and I'm just going to
paraphrase it, but it'ssomething that I live by.
So Gandhi said don't let peoplewith dirty feet walk in your
head, and that's what I live by.
(52:23):
I won't allow anyone with theirdirty feet to walk in my head
to allow me to find myself incrisis.
So that keeps me strong, keepsme guarded, keeps me centered,
and I make sure that I lookafter my own self-care and make
(52:44):
sure that I know that theancestors that were before me
has given me the strength to goon, and I'm just carrying on
with their work.
So I think, as black people, wedo need to find that solace
that keeps us strong and not toallow outside influences to
bring us down.
But it is a hard task to carrybecause you're having to carry
(53:09):
it all the time.
But I think you need toself-care, be good to yourself
and be kind to yourself and notallow other people's ideology or
thoughts about you affect youin any way, because the best way
to win the enemy is to liveyour best life is to be good to
yourself.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
That was so well said .
That was so well said.
I have nothing to follow thatup with, other than it's been a
pleasure talking to you.
Dawn-Maria France (53:41):
And you, richard.
It's been a delight and I'mglad that you've been inviting
me onto your podcast.
I feel very honored to be onyour show.
Richard Dodds (53:50):
Thanks for coming .
Thank you Again.
I'd like to thank Dymarita forcoming on the show.
You can find out moreinformation about her in the
show notes.
Still Talking Black is a CrownCulture Media LLC production.
You can find out more about itat StillTalkingBlackcom.
But until next time, keepTalking.
This is Still Talking Black, a show where we
discuss issues affectingblackness from a black point of
view.
I'm your host, Richard Dyes.
Today.
I'm joined by Dyle Maria, aneditor, a children's author and
a mental health advocate in theUnited Kingdom.
We talk about the ways that theUK and America are alike and
different, and some of theissues that she's faced growing
(00:22):
up in the UK.
Dawn-Maria France (00:23):
So, without further ado, my name is Dyle
Maria France, an editor ofNewsled Yorkshire Women's Life
magazine.
I'm also a children's author,broadcaster and mental health
campaigner, and I live inYorkshire in the UK.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
That's awesome.
You've done a lot of differentthings.
I didn't know that you weredoing kids books.
Dawn-Maria France (00:49):
Yes, I started them.
Well, my background beforebecame a journalist, I worked as
a youth worker.
So I used to work with childrenthat came from chaotic
backgrounds and I always lookedto elevate the children that I
worked with.
So I set about trying to findpositive images which would lift
(01:10):
up the children that I workedwith, because they came from
some of the most troublingbackgrounds where the parents
probably had alcohol abuse orwere quite poor because they
might have been on benefits orsocial aid.
And I was trying to find thekind of books that would elevate
the children that I was workingwith.
(01:30):
And I couldn't find those typesof books.
So I thought, well, I'll do someresearch into how to write
children's books and try andfind really uplifting characters
.
So the research took about fouryears and I worked with lots of
children's groups andorganisations and parents and I
went on quite a lot of writingcourses to get the tone and the
(01:53):
pitch just right for childrenand I developed a character
which is a very strong, nononsense, knows her own mind
little girl, and I made her froma family that wasn't a
conventional family.
She was adopted, so I wanted toreach out to some of the
children that I worked with toshow that families come in all
(02:14):
shapes and sizes and that youcan be strong as a little girl.
But I was taken aback by thefeedback on both sides of the
channel, both in America andalso in England.
The feedback has been amazingand that was very, very
privileged to get the kind offeedback from the children that
(02:35):
were reading the books as well.
They really liked thecharacters, they got it, they
understood that the characterswere strong.
And the second book I've got amixed race little girl in it
with her hair in plaid.
So black children and mixedrace children could see
themselves in that character andI hope to develop it, going
(02:56):
forward and bringing morediversity To characters from
different cultural backgrounds,going forward and new and
interesting stories as well.
So that's the plan taking thechildren's book forward.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
What kind of hairstyle is having a hair in
plaid?
So I've never heard of thatbefore.
Dawn-Maria France (03:15):
Oh, I think you call it braiding.
Do you call it braiding inAmerica?
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Oh, okay, yeah, we call it braids in America.
Dawn-Maria France (03:21):
Yeah, you call it braids.
Well, in Caribbean culture wecall it plaids, so kind of like
I've got my hair now just inplaids, but you call it braids,
so I really wanted the characterto have a natural hairstyle
that was synonymous with herculture.
So that's why I had the littlegirl with a hair in braids
(03:42):
plaids.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
That's kind of an amazing story that you couldn't
and I think the word that youuse was image, like you couldn't
find an image to show thesekids that came from such a rough
background that you had tocreate it.
Why, would you say, it's soimportant for kids to be able to
see images that are outside ofwhere they are now?
Dawn-Maria France (04:03):
Because the children that I worked with.
They came from some of thepoorest backgrounds and all they
had was that area and I triedto show them that there was life
outside of that area.
So I used to take the childrento the theater, I used to take
them for picnics.
I used to show them that justbecause they were from a poor
background, that didn't definewho they were.
(04:24):
That was their start, but theycould move beyond it.
So I was looking for charactersin children's books to elevate
the work that I was doing withthe children by lifting them up
and showing them there werealternatives.
They might have had the poorstart, but they could go on and
do something constructive withthe life and it's important
(04:46):
sometimes to see characters inbooks.
I know it was vital for me.
My mum went out of her way toget a book called Ebony, which
is an American magazine youmight be familiar with.
But seeing Ebony in ourhousehold and seeing those
beautiful black women, thoseblack people in America who were
doing amazing things, was sopowerful to me to have that
(05:10):
magazine.
I knew what a difference itmade for me and I knew it would
make a difference for thechildren that I was in charge of
.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
That's something I think that's something sometimes
we end up taking for granted.
Is that representation?
And I even think about whenDisney released a little mermaid
and it had a black aerial andhow much of an uprising it was
and some people that were notblack were saying why do they
have to make her black?
Now my daughter doesn't havelike she can't relate to aerial
(05:40):
and it's like well, for a lot ofpeople from different cultures.
A lot of times we don't get tosee ourselves in like the
characters, whether it's acartoon or whether it's a big
budget film.
It's just like recently.
Now we're just starting to seecharacters like Black Panther
and different characters likethat.
(06:01):
That really represents us andit's not Black Cinema, is
mainstream cinema and it makes abig difference being mainstream
versus being somethingspecifically just for black
people.
Dawn-Maria France (06:13):
I think that's really amazing, it's
absolutely true.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Let's circle back.
So for you.
Why did you choose journalism?
What made you be attracted tojournalism?
Dawn-Maria France (06:27):
I think I always loved writing.
I always loved words.
I always looked books.
I loved the fact that you couldpick up a book and not know
about the subject and by thetime you finished the book, it
had educated you.
I loved the way wordstransported me to different
places and took me to differentexperiences and I always loved
(06:48):
having books around.
And my mum, when I was younger,she took me to the Caribbean to
meet my uncle because she knewthat I loved words and I loved
books, I loved writing, and shetook me to see my uncle in the
Caribbean and he was ajournalist and for me, that
whole representation of seeingsomeone who looked like me, who
(07:08):
was doing what I wanted to do,was it, was huge to me.
It was so amazing for my youngself to see that and I knew that
word meant a lot and they did alot.
And I knew articles andjournalists made a difference
because they went to tell thestories.
They were entrusted by peopleto tell their stories and talk
(07:30):
about their lived experience andit was something that burned
deep inside and I knew that Ineeded to do it.
I needed to be entrusted totell other people's stories and
to write articles that wouldmake people think, and I think I
was born to do it.
I'd never wanted to do anythingelse.
I'd never imagined myself doinganything else.
It was something I'd wanted todo since I was about six and I
(07:55):
remember my aunt saying thatwhen I was about four I was
writing something in a diary andshe was correcting it, and she
said that I was so angry.
My four-year-old self thoughthow dare you correct my writing?
And she said she just knew.
But what was amazing was my mumused to write to my granny, who
(08:16):
was in the Caribbean, every weekand I must have scribbled on
the letter.
And then my granny in theCaribbean cut out my scribble
and she put it in the photoalbum.
So that is my first bit ofwriting.
And I can't tell you how itfelt, going to the Caribbean and
seeing my first bit of writingas a baby that my gran had kept
(08:40):
all those years and I believeit's still in the family album.
So that's my first bit ofwriting.
It's almost like she knew thatI was going to go on to be a
writer, because why else wouldshe have kept that scribble?
You'd have thought she wouldhave just got rid of it and cut
it out and bind it, but sheactually kept it and that
(09:01):
touched me deeply.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
That's amazing I mean , that's amazing all the way
around how you got inspired.
Well, you got reinforced byseeing your uncle doing
something, someone that lookedlike you, doing the same thing
that you wanted to do, and it'sjust like, oh wow, like I'm on
the right path.
That's an amazing thing to see.
Dawn-Maria France (09:21):
It was because the school that I went
to it was a predominantly whiteschool and there wasn't that
many black people going to theschool and the school it was
quite a racist school.
Now I'm looking back I didn'tsee it at the time because you
just don't see that, and theykind of put us into boxes.
The white children that werewell off, they were going to go
(09:42):
to university and the sky wasthe limit.
But for the black children whowere from neighborhoods that
weren't as affluent, the sky wasour limit and we couldn't
actually get to it, whereas thewhite children were pushed
towards university and we werepushed towards kind of like
(10:03):
domestic, kind of jobs, you know, like caring and to be like
porters and such like.
They kind of wrote us off at ayoung age and didn't encourage
us.
So for my mum to actually showme someone who looked like me
was very important because Iwasn't getting that support at
(10:24):
the school.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Isn't that something like?
I think me being an American?
Sometimes, I think, as a blackAmerican, I think that that's an
inherent American problem thatas a young black child whether
they say it with words or justwith action you are told that
(10:47):
you are limited to what you cando and it's kind of like
reinforced, it's like sky isn'tthe limit for you.
But to hear you in a wholeother country say that you
experience the same thing milesand miles away from me, is that
it's like wow, it's really noteven just an America problem.
Dawn-Maria France (11:07):
No, no, it's not at all.
And the saddest thing for mewas that Caribbean people were
invited to come to the UK, tocome to England from the islands
to build up the country afterthe second world war.
They were invited but when myparents came here they couldn't
get anywhere to rent.
Other black people had to buyhouses to rent to other black
(11:29):
people because they couldn'tactually get anywhere to live.
And also what I noticed wasJewish people started to open
factories to employ people likemy mum and dad, so other
minorities had to employminorities who were invited here
.
But in England we've had theBlack Panthers.
(11:52):
We've had our own civil rightsmovement in the UK that ran
between 1968 to 1973, so we'vehad the struggle as well.
When the Caribbean people cameto England, a lot of them found
themselves in low-skilled jobs,so there was a lot of tension
(12:14):
with immigrants.
There was a lot of interracialtension as well and violence
between the police who wereharassing black men at the time,
and that led to the 1958Notting Hill race riots.
So in England we've had our ownBlack Panthers.
We've had our own struggles toget some kind of support just to
(12:38):
live your normal life, andwe've been fighting against
police harassment and brutality,against our own racism in this
country.
So the struggle has been notonly in America, but in the UK
as well.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
That's something sad to have to share, that even you
can't get away from it.
No matter where you are, I feellike people that are skin-toned
are constantly having to fightfor our equality.
I actually got a chance to lookat some of the articles that you
wrote about that.
It's just why is it soimportant?
(13:17):
Because I feel like, especiallyin America, I can speak on it
specifically, but I feel likejournalism is really, I feel
like it's in crisis just becauseso many different things are
going on.
Like you know, with theprevious president, he put a lot
of journalistic integrity tothe side and he made people
(13:37):
really question journalism whenit didn't.
When journalism doesn't agreewith how you, how your feelings
are, it's in question not onlythat, but like, especially like
I know here, like people arereading less newspaper, it's
more social media where they gettheir news and their
information.
How have you adapted in thatkind of environment to make, to
(14:00):
make yourself and journalismstill relevant, because so many
stories and stuff like goodinformation that you're trying
to get to people.
Dawn-Maria France (14:08):
Well, I always try to keep my finger on
the pulse.
I don't write articles that arenot challenging.
I write articles to make youthink.
I do a lot of research to makepeople understand what's
actually going on and I writeabout things that matter.
So I've written about black menand mental health because the
conversation wasn't aconversation that I felt was
(14:31):
being examined or talked aboutor really written about to the
extent because I usually do deepdive when I do my articles, I
do lots and lots of research andI don't.
I'm not writing for people tothink it's popular.
I'm writing to get people toask questions, to put
(14:53):
information out there for themto know what's going on, to
question the narrative, and thefeedback I've had is amazing.
You have to adapt.
So of course, I've donearticles for the Huffington Post
, which is online because I'vetrained in newspaper, but of
course the new media is online,so I've had to adapt to write
(15:14):
articles that are online as well.
But I mean things that reallyconcern me.
It's not just writing aboutrace issues, which I do, because
obviously I know a lot aboutthat, but I write about mental
health and social issues as well, and I write a lot about
politics, so my range of writingis quite vast.
(15:35):
But things that concern me arethat black people, especially
young black men, are four timesmore likely to be detained under
the mental health act in the UK.
And then research shows thatadult black community is 20%
more likely to experienceserious mental health problems
(15:55):
like depression or anxiety.
And then when you look atwhat's causing that, a lot of
the time it's stress and it'sracism.
And then the government knowsabout this because the
government releases papers tosay that there's more black
people in the system.
For example, uk Home Office.
(16:16):
They published in May, the 26thof May this year.
They said that black people arealmost five times likely than
white people to be detainedunder the mental health act 342
detentions for every 100,000people, compared with 72% for
(16:39):
every 100,000 people.
So black and other ethnicgroups have got the highest
detention rates in psychiatricwards and being detained under
the mental health act.
And then the lowest rate is why?
Irish at 62% for every 100,000.
So there's a crisis.
And what annoys me is the UKgovernment knows there's a
(17:03):
crisis, but they're not doinganything about it.
So then it's left tojournalists to expose that and
say, look, we've got a problem,we need to have a conversation
about it.
So there is a role forjournalists to tell the truth
about what's happening.
I know that Donald Trump wasalways trying to say that the
(17:25):
journalists were against him andwhatnot, but you need to have
in a democracy, you need to havefree speech and you need to
have journalists that are truthsayers, who are tackling
difficult subjects, and that'swhere our role is.
We need to have journalists tohold the government to account,
to hold organisations to account.
(17:48):
Otherwise, what's the point ifyou don't have journalists to
talk about what's happening, toresearch, to actually put
information out there, to haveconversations and to have
debates?
And, of course, I've had toadapt to use the new media, like
social media, to get thestories out there.
So, as a journalist, I've hadto move with the times because
(18:10):
my background was newspaper, butI've had to move with social
media.
So you do have to adapt.
But I'm proud with the kind ofarticles that I've done because
they are hard hitting, they'rewell researched and they do get
people to think as well.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
So there's going to always be a role for someone
like me to actually get thosestories out there and to have
those conversations andencourage those debates and I
think that is a fundamentalpurpose of journalism is to
really shine a light on thingsthat might not necessarily get
(18:45):
that light and like for someonelike you.
I know that you do a ton ofresearch for everything that you
do and it's like sometimes, sothat makes sometimes it takes
longer.
How do you combat like peoplejust spewing things?
I mean like maybe it'sdifferent in England, but here
somebody could just saysomething and if enough people
see it, then it starts to becomefact for a lot of people and
(19:08):
then when the well researchedpeople come out and say no, no,
no, no, that's actually not howit is, it's already running
cycle and it's kind of hard topull back the wall and be like
hey guys, y'all been believingthe wrong thing, this is the
facts.
The facts usually get far lesstraction from what I've seen
like, especially recently.
Yeah, that's how do you combatthat.
Dawn-Maria France (19:31):
Well, the thing is, we'd things like the
Huffington Post and otherpublications that I've written
for, which have got a reallygood reputation for fact finding
, for actually gettingjournalists who will do the
groundwork, and what I'venoticed is, since Elon Musk has
taken over Twitter as well,there is a counter narrative for
(19:53):
every negative story.
There is someone like me who'swriting with the facts of what's
actually going on.
So I feel quite hopeful becauseI noticed the platform is
getting better and there is alot of people listening and a
lot of people doing research anda lot of people that are
listening to journalists likemyself who are putting the truth
(20:14):
out there.
Because I usually put links inmy articles where they can click
, because if it's online, theycan click on the article to see
where the source is from, sothey can see that it has been
fact checked and that whatthey're seeing from me is quite
authentic.
Because I do a lot of deepdiving and it does take quite a
(20:35):
while to do your articles,because I don't want to miss out
on vital bits of research forthe articles that I write.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Yeah, I've seen you said Elon Musk, since he took
over Twitter and renamed it to X.
Yeah, it's funny because Ireally kind of had to step back
from that platform just becausethe information that I was
getting fed started to change alittle bit.
Like stuff that I wasinterested in kind of became
(21:05):
fewer and fewer, and then stuffthat I wasn't so interested in
and stuff that just didn'tnecessarily pass the taste test
was getting fed to me and I waslike I don't know what he's
doing.
I know he's taking away somechecks and balances, so it
almost feels like that is asocial experiment going wrong.
(21:25):
How can I change this?
Because I feel like it's somuch power and media and that's
one of the reasons why it's soimportant for the separation
between having, like agovernment and then media and
it's almost like an additionalcheck and balance, just because,
if we've seen, in countrieswhere the government controls
the media there's a lot, theycan kind of bend the community
(21:49):
to their will.
You know, to a certain degree.
Dawn-Maria France (21:53):
That's true, but what I've noticed on
Twitter since Elon Musk took itover is the voices that were
pushed off, the voices thatwould be saying things that he
may not want to hear but weretruthful.
And now, coming back ontoTwitter, so it feels like it's
it's kind of evening out,because those voices were
(22:14):
removed from Twitter, so younever heard that side of the
argument.
You just heard one side, whichwas probably leaning more
towards the left, maybe towardsthe Democrats, but you didn't
hear other voices.
So I've noticed that you arenow hearing other voices.
So it feels like you're gettingthat bit of a balance which I
didn't see before under theprevious owners.
(22:36):
So people that were just takenoff because their views might
not have been towards the left,as it were.
Now you're seeing otherpeople's voices and hearing
other people's voices as well,which is a good thing, because
now you're getting a bit of abalance and that's good to see.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
I want.
It's like free speech is such atricky thing, especially for
like something like a socialmedia network, just because I
feel like money instantly moveslike one way or another,
depending on who has the moneyand who has the influence.
Like you can move the needleeither way and I just think it's
.
It's a.
(23:16):
I think it's just a delicatebalance to walk between free
speech, because if I don't likeit, then it's wrong and get it
off.
But if I said it and you don'tlike it, that's free speech,
like it's such a, it's just itall, it all, in that I mean
that's the left and the right.
I'll put it on everybody,democrats, republicans.
It's almost like if I don'tagree with it, then it's wrong
(23:38):
and free speech doesn't matter.
But if you don't agree with me,then it's free speech and you
need to get over it so I can seewhere you're coming from.
Dawn-Maria France (23:46):
Yeah Well, what I noticed is some people
who didn't speak with thenarrative and who were
completely removed off Twitterhave now got their accounts
installed.
So now you're able to hear whatthey've got to say about a wide
range of issues, whether youagree with them or not.
At least you're able to hearthem, whereas before Elon Musk
(24:09):
took over, these people werebasically canceled, so you never
got to hear their voice or whattheir opinion was about the big
things that are going on in theUSA and also in England.
For example, tonight on Twitter, bill Gates's car was
surrounded by ordinary membersof the public who were calling
(24:34):
for him to be jailed or whatever.
Now, before you'd never seethat.
You would not have seen thatclip about Bill Gates.
Before Elon Musk got it, thatwould have been quietly removed.
But now you're able to see it.
So things like that you're ableto see and hear about people's
(24:54):
opinions, whether you'repalatable to it or not, or
whether you're on the left orthe right.
At least you can hear bothsides, whereas before you just
couldn't.
You just heard one side of thenarrative.
But I think that free speech isin danger.
People feel like they have tocensor what they're saying.
They're living in very bizarretimes and I would like it to at
(25:17):
some point come to an end wherewe could speak freely about
whatever the issue is that wewant to talk about, because it's
fundamental in a democracy.
That's one of the foundingcause is to have free speech and
to have a democracy and to havefreedom of choice and freedom
to speak as you want to.
(25:37):
We don't live in a dictatorship, but sometimes it feels that
way because the government inboth America and in England
don't feel strong enough toactually allow the people to be
who they want to be and to betheir authentic self.
So we still have to push to haveour voices, because we've been
(25:58):
through a lot as people, andparticularly as black people.
We've struggled.
We've had people like MartinLuther King, who's fought for us
to have this conversation andto be able to be our authentic
self.
So we need to be mindful thatwe need to continue to speak our
mind and speak our truth,because it's vital to do that,
(26:19):
because we've come from too farand we've travelled for too long
to be in a position to speakabout our experience, and we owe
it to ourselves and ourancestors and all the people
that went before us and we oweit to our children's children to
be able to have our voice, andthat's why it's important for us
(26:39):
to speak about what's going on,and I take it seriously.
As a writer, I know that it'sentrusted to me from my
ancestors for me to continue towrite about things.
It means a great deal to me andI take it seriously.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, social media free speech is like a whole.
That's a whole, like that's sucha big rabbit hole because
that's like a whole bunch oftopics in one, just because I
feel like one of the biggestthreats to free speech is the
fact that you can have somebodygo and say something that's
untrue and it could get so muchtraction and people will believe
it.
Like even when, like I rememberbefore Elon Musk bought Twitter,
(27:17):
he would say something and itwould start to affect the free
market enterprise because hewould say something.
Then the markets would shift andthat would really mess up, put
in jeopardy some of thelivelihoods of some of those
workers is working for thosecompanies, because it would dip
up or down from just a tweet andyou think about something
that's so powerful and it's justlike from a liability
(27:42):
standpoint, it's like nobodywants to be responsible, like
the private corporations don'twant to be responsible to
government probably shouldn't beresponsible, but there probably
should be some guidelines putin place.
But I don't know how it is inEngland, but in America we have
been really slow to keep up withthe technology and being able
to govern the technology as itcomes and it's far out patient,
(28:05):
I mean like one of the scariestthings now is artificial
intelligence, and I mean even inlike writing, like they people
are writing with artificialintelligence and doing law or
artificial intelligence and it'sbeen it's starting to cause
some problems because, likethey're finding, like sometimes
AI just makes up stuff.
So it's going to be aninteresting next couple of years
(28:26):
seeing how governments figurethat out.
Dawn-Maria France (28:31):
Yeah, I think we Twitter and with other
social media spaces.
I would rather the governmentstay out of that space, because
the government's got their ownagenda in some respects and I
would rather that space.
Even if people write on Twitterwhich might not be palatable to
me at least if they have thatspace to do that and have that
(28:54):
expression, I would rathersupport people having that
freedom to write.
Even if it's not for me, thenhave the government have their
claws in it, because thegovernment could probably
manipulate it.
So I would prefer it to nothave government influences.
For example, you look at China,where they're actually
(29:14):
governing what people can say onsocial media and if it's
against the government, they canuse the social credit because
the person didn't have the rightthought or they didn't have the
right phraseology and it wasagainst the government narrative
.
I would rather have it separate,like it is, without the
government interference, becausenobody wants a social credit
(29:35):
system where the governmentcould tell you how to think, how
to talk and what you should orshouldn't say.
No one wants a dictatorship.
So we need to fight to keepsocial media out of government
control and from what I've seenfrom Musk, yes, he's got quite a
few things wrong, but it's goodto see people who were thrown
off the platform back on theplatform just to hear their
(29:59):
point of view, which you may ormay not agree with.
But you need to have thecounter narrative, to listen to
other people and just hear othervoices and other opinions.
You can't have just one side ofthe argument.
You need to have the whole sideof the argument, so then you
can make an informed choice, andthat's what I think Elon Musk
(30:19):
has brought to the table.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Yeah, I can understand your point of view.
I definitely do Like I don'tnecessarily totally agree with
the Elon Musk stuff, but Idefinitely do get your point and
it's very, it's verygeneralistic.
Just because you're like,whatever the other side like,
whether I agree with it or not,I at least people need to at
least be able to hear it andmake up their own minds.
But I wish everybody was asthoughtful as you.
(30:45):
Even when I see stuff that Iagree with, I do try to look it
up just to make sure it's truebefore I take it as doctrine.
You know what I mean.
But everybody doesn't do thatand I think the scariest part is
that a lot of people don'tcritically think anymore.
And that's what makes me feel alittle bit, because somebody
could say something andeverybody don't always use their
best judgment.
(31:05):
They don't fact check, they useone source and that's bad for
both sides.
You see, either you use aleftist place or a rightist
place and whatever they say,you're going to take it at face
value and that's going to be lawand I don't think either one of
those are good.
Dawn-Maria France (31:20):
That's true.
I do encourage people tocritical think and to not just
take it on board but to actuallydo your own research and find
out more about whatever theconversation is.
I mean, I always do that anyway, probably because I'm a person
who critically thinks, and I'venoticed a few people online are
doing that more and more, thatthey're seeing something and
(31:41):
then they're going away andlooking it up.
So you've seen people doingthat.
I mean I'd like to see morepeople doing it, but I have seen
a trickle of people actuallydoing that more looking into
things, questioning.
You need to question things aswell.
It's always healthy for youmentally, physically, otherwise
to question whatever thenarrative is and find out and
(32:05):
follow what it is that's beentold to you why is it being told
to you and sometimes follow themoney trail as well to find out
exactly what's behind thenarrative.
Sometimes you have to peel backthe layers to see what the real
story is.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, no, I totally, I totally agree with you.
And speaking of media, we kindof talked about this before.
I'm so curious as someone inthe States, like I was really
surprised when Megan Markle,Mary, Prince Harry I did not
expect it to be so much backlashwas.
(32:45):
I mean, that was surprising tome as someone in the United
States.
Was that surprising to you whenthat started to happen?
Dawn-Maria France (32:54):
Well, when Megan actually started dating
Prince Harry, she did seem toget a lot of love from the
British public and it turns out,from what I read, that it looks
like she and Prince Harry willbe coming really popular.
So it sounds like there mighthave been briefing against them
(33:15):
because the can't be morepopular than what's going to be
the king in the future.
That's what it feels like.
So then it felt like they werethen played as some kind of you
know awful people and all thedirt started to stick on them.
But I did see some racist postsabout Megan.
(33:36):
I mean, there was one that Ithought was absolutely
incredible.
So this woman said I thoughtMegan was Italian, I didn't know
she was black, as if to say sowhat?
So she's black.
And I remember reading in thepaper they had a picture of
Megan and her mom, doria, and atno point in this article would
(33:59):
they say that this was her mom.
They kept saying this isMegan's friend, who is a yoga
teacher and a social worker.
But they had a huge picture ofher white dad and it was at the
end of the article, the very end.
It said this is Megan's mom andit was like what is this.
It was almost like the playedher as the angry black woman
(34:23):
kind of narrative, which Ithought was ridiculous and a lot
of people said her race mighthave been an impact in that you
know this black woman who hasher own career, who's clearly
strong, who knows her own mind.
You know they almost made itsound like she had taken this
(34:43):
white guy hostage and hecouldn't get away from the big,
angry black woman and it waslike what are you doing with
this narrative?
It's just ridiculous and I'mglad that Megan kept her counsel
.
I'm glad that, regardless toall the noise that was around
her portraying her in thisridiculous light, that she
(35:07):
managed to keep herself strong,not have some kind of mental
health breakdown because thepressure and the noise around
her.
I mean I remember watching them.
It was like a breakfast programand this woman phoned in.
It was one of those wheremembers of the public could
phone in and the person phonedin and they said I hate Megan
(35:31):
and they don't know her.
And then the the host said well, why do you hate her?
And the person put the phonedown and it was like how are you
hating this woman?
You don't know who she is andit's just ridiculous.
There's just so much noise aboutMegan being painted as this
dreadful person for falling inlove with the prince and then
(35:52):
make out that he's been capturedby it and he was in.
He's actually been a soldier,so he's not being captured by
anybody.
This is quite a strongcharacter who fought in Iraq.
You know he's not beingcaptured by the big black woman.
It's just, oh, it's just.
(36:12):
It actually annoys me by theactual noise around it.
And then you've got the uncleAndrew, who's a very sinister
character who's friends ofEpstein.
So I would have thought hewould have got more criticism
than a black woman who's marriedthe prince.
(36:33):
It's just so.
Sometimes it feels like racismdoes raise its head, because
sometimes I wonder if she waswhite, I don't think she'd have
got that kind of aggravation.
And there seems to be a lot ofpeople lining up, including her
own family there, of no help atall.
The dad won't shut up thesisters a bit sinister herself.
(36:56):
You know she's got no right tobe going after Megan.
When her own daughter gotmarried, didn't invite her to
the wedding and invited Megan,but that didn't get reported
because you know that doesn'tfit the narrative and her
sisters can smell the money.
So she's looks like she's been.
(37:17):
I don't know.
It looks like someone might bebankrolling.
I don't think she's got thefunds to be suing.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Megan, didn't she write a book or something like
one of the sisters?
Yeah, she was supposed to?
Dawn-Maria France (37:30):
Yeah, she was supposed to have written a
book Quity Sizing Megan and thenit looks like she's suing Megan
as well and it soundsridiculous.
But I remember someone sayingsomething in the newspaper and
they were saying well, the blackside of the family are being
very dignified.
It just seems to be the whiteside of the family who were
carrying on, you know, likeTrailer Park type of people.
(37:54):
Really they don't seem to haveany kind of sense.
And I watched something wherethe dad they said to Megan's dad
, would you stop selling storieson it if it meant you could
meet the grandchildren and startto repair your relationship?
And you know he said no, hesaid he wouldn't, he said that
(38:15):
Megan owed him and he soundedlike he was going to continue to
get money off the back of her.
So if that's the dad's intent,you can see why the relationship
is broken down.
Because the mum, doria, she'snever, ever, to my knowledge,
sold any stories about Megan,the children, prince Harry,
she's had a very dignified wayof how she conducts herself and
(38:40):
I think that's why she's stillin Megan's life and I believe
they refer to Doria as the rock.
So she's allowed to see hergrandchildren and she's built up
a lovely relationship with herdaughter and her son-in-law.
But the dad's is too busy sortof selling stories and I think
(39:00):
he's short-sighted as well,because he could stop all this
tomorrow.
And what's the point Sellingstories is missing out and
watching the grandchildren growup and ask for the sister.
I mean regardless to what thesister says.
Her black half sister marriedthe prince.
Just throwing that out there.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Yes, it's, I think, the most point thing that you
said, that somebody thought shewas Italian and they thought one
way about her.
And then, when they found outshe was black, it's like, ooh,
like I don't know the sameperson who didn't change any,
and I'm wondering how much like?
Once, as the relationship gotmore serious, more people
(39:42):
probably started to check thebackground and I was like, oh,
she's not actually like Italianor something.
She's actually.
She's not even.
You can't even say mixed race,right, she's mixed.
She's a little bit of this, alittle bit of that.
They go straight to black.
She's black.
So therefore, everything is bad.
That's kind of that's kind ofcrazy, and I feel like that's
(40:04):
how it tends to be, Like youcould talk on the phone with
somebody and maybe like yourbest friend, and then you meet
them and it's like ooh, I didn'tknow you were black.
Like that changes everything.
Oh, it does.
This is crazy how the worldworks.
Dawn-Maria France (40:17):
And the thing with Megan is she's always
been filmed with her mom.
You know she's always.
She said that when she wasyounger I don't know how young
she was, but her mom was tryingto get a car space and a white
woman used the N word to her momand her mom was in tears and
the young Megan cradled her momand said mom, it's okay, Don't
(40:41):
worry about it.
So Megan has seen thisfirsthand, hearing this racial
terminology, this disgustingword used to her mom, and she
was there and she saw that.
And when Megan was younger andher mom was pushing it in a pram
, people thought that her momwas the nanny and people would
(41:02):
question her mom about thiswhite looking child and all this
.
And Megan knows all this.
And Megan as well has had allthis kind of micro, passive
aggressive, because Prince Harrysaid he never knew about micro
aggression until he met Meganand that she educated him about
(41:23):
micro and passive aggressive,which we've all experienced.
I've experienced it myself.
So she's been able to advisehim about what it's like,
regardless to the fact that shelooks so pale.
You know, she sees herself as awoman of color.
She said it in numerousspeeches and she's not ashamed
of her mom.
She's written in articles.
My mom is an African Americanwho's got locks, small locks, in
(41:48):
her hair.
That's how she describes hermom.
So I think maybe there was anarrative for her to try and
pretend.
But she has not.
And to me she's a strong blackwoman and she's someone you know
to be held up, because I don'tthink I could have put up with
the scrutiny, the harassmentthat she gets day in and day out
(42:09):
.
It's just ridiculous.
I don't know how anyone couldcope with that.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah, it's tough.
I feel like England and youguys' media is like so much more
intense, Like when you guysfocus, especially when it comes
to the Royal Family.
Like I remember when PrincessDiana died and even before that,
everybody was so focused onwhat Diana was doing and I was
like, wow, like this is, this iscrazy Like this is like like
media sometimes can just go socrazy on the subject and we
(42:38):
forget that the people that wefollow, like that, they're still
.
They're still just people.
They gotta go through the samestruggles, but they also got to
deal with the added pressure ofbeing in the limelight the way
that they are.
Dawn-Maria France (42:50):
Absolutely.
And Megan is strong.
You know.
You look at when she, when shewas younger, when she was
campaigning for various things,I mean this is quite a strong
character, you know going onnational television talking
about the, the cereal packet orthe washing up power, and she
(43:12):
needs to be more inclusive.
So she was a natural leaderfrom since she was 13.
And she talks about when shewent for acting jobs sleeping in
her car.
So she knows about gettingrejections from casting sleeping
in her car, having not muchmoney, only having enough money
for petrol to get to the nextaudition.
(43:34):
So she wasn't born with asilver spoon in their mouth.
She knows what it's like.
So she is real.
And I think that's why he wasattracted to her, because he had
all the other women maybeprincesses and whatnot but he
chose her and this is the womanthat he married and has children
with.
And I think we need to respecthis decision and move on,
(43:55):
because there's enough thingsgoing on in the world for us to
be so obsessed with this couplewhen the whole world is yeah,
the whole world is changingbefore our eyes and I think we
should be more concerned withwhat's happening in our
neighborhoods, in our countries,as opposed to this rich couple
(44:15):
who fell in love and got marriedand had children.
Just leave them to get on withtheir life and to live their
best life and to bring up thechildren the way they want to.
And let's concentrate withwhat's actually happening around
the world, because there's alot happening.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah, it's not like she was broke when she met him.
Dawn-Maria France (44:35):
No, I mean she was in suits.
I mean I've not seen suits thatoften, but when I've seen it
and she's been in it.
She has yeah, she has beenparticularly good.
I've watched it a few times andshe had her own money, she had
her own career.
She didn't marry him to tosponge off him.
She had made her own money inher own right and she made it
(44:58):
her way.
And it's clear that she has agood relationship with her mom
as well.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
As a suits fan, the only thing that bothered me when
she married the prince was thatshe had to get ridden off a
suit, so like that was thesaddest part for me.
It's like they rule off twocharacters because of that.
But I get it.
No, I totally get it.
You got to follow, you got todo it and make you happy.
Dawn-Maria France (45:21):
Absolutely, and she does seem happy now that
she's a mum and she's met herprince technically.
But what was really, reallywhat really made me laugh is
they had like a realityprogramme in England where they
got someone to pretend he wasPrince Harry and he was.
(45:42):
It was like the bachelor.
It was that kind of programme.
Richard Dodds (45:45):
If you're familiar with the bachelor.
Dawn-Maria France (45:47):
Yeah, so it was like that.
So he pretended he was theprince and all these women were
trying to win his attention andin the end he chose this white
woman who was blonde, with blueeyes, and then he had to say I'm
not the prince and whatnot, andthey decided to split the money
(46:08):
, but in reality the princewould have chosen the black
woman, because all the blackwomen that was fine for this
man's attention he got rid of,but in reality he would have
chosen one of them.
I just thought that was quitefunny.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
So we kind of talked about this before, like when we
talked previously from yourperspective, someone that's
outside of the United States,how do you see, how do you view
racism in the US from the UK?
Dawn-Maria France (46:42):
In the US it feels more like in the US
people will tell you that theydon't want.
They don't want you in thecompany, the more direct it
feels like, whereas in Englandit's all micro passive
aggressive where you know.
You know that they know they'rebeing racist, but it's hard to
(47:03):
prove it.
But it looks like in Americathey're in your face so you
actually know that they don'tneed, they don't want you in
their company or whatever.
Whereas in this country, likefor example, years ago, I phoned
up for a job but obviously I'vegot very British voice, but
(47:23):
then when I turned up the manwas so disappointed to see that
this voice belong to this colourthat I knew straight away that
he had an issue with having ablack person in the company.
I mean, he made all the usualexcuses but I knew definitely I
(47:44):
could read the room and I knewthat's one of his perception.
Whereas in America I get theimpression that you would know
before you wasted time toactually jump through hoops to
go to the interview.
Is that the case or do youstill?
Do you have micro passiveaggressive as well in the US?
Speaker 3 (48:03):
I think we get the full range.
I think a lot more times you'llsee the micro microaggressions,
like I think it's a pretty newthing for people to kind of
speak their mind Like oh, wedon't like black people, like
that's more, like I mean, I feellike it's always been there,
because you think about the waythat the United States was born,
they like it's always been thatyou know, like slavery and then
(48:28):
, like you know, like our civilrights movement over here.
So it's always been kind of athing.
You know, like you could diefrom being this color.
That's far.
I don't know if that's like, ifthat happens outside of here,
but over here it's like you getcaught in the wrong spot, like,
especially back during the civilrights movement day, you would
(48:48):
die and you wouldn't hearanything about anything like
that.
But now it's a.
You know most people want tosay it to your face like that,
but it's levels Like it really,like you see, like
microaggressions most of thetime and then, depending on
where you go, it gets moreaggressive and more overt than
(49:10):
other times.
So I was curious to see, justbecause I wonder how, because
you know, when you're not in aplace, just like I'm not in
England, like you know.
Like all I know to go by is allof the all the English shows
that I watch or anything thatcomes in the news, and you know
the type of stuff that's in thenews isn't always the thing that
(49:30):
really accentuates what acountry is like, or like a
country, a state, a city oranything.
So I was just really curious tosee like what like from outside
someone that's outside of theUnited States how they view
racism in the United States.
Richard Dodds (49:48):
I had somebody.
I oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Dawn-Maria France (49:53):
No, I always got the impression that you
were more direct.
Because in England, becauseit's micro and passive
aggressive, it's almost like agame.
I always I find the micro,passive aggressive is clever
racism.
So my parents, they were toldthat interviews we don't want
you because you're black and wedon't want a black person in
this company.
(50:13):
They were told that to the faceuntil the race relation act
came in where they knew theycouldn't say it directly because
it was against the law.
But now I would have to go forthe interview.
They know they don't want totake me because of my color, but
they let me go through theinterview.
They let me go through thepanel, they let me waste time
(50:34):
knowing they don't want to giveyou the job because you are
black.
So you're almost having to playmind games and sometimes I feel
like my color goes into the roomfirst and then I have to fight
all the nonsense, all the racismand all the stereotypes
afterwards.
So it's like my color walks infront of me and then I have to
(50:55):
knock down any of theirperceived perceptions.
And sometimes it is quitetiring because you think I'd
hoped at this point in life,with so many families being
blended families, that it wouldbe a lot easier because a lot of
people are now in mixedfamilies, whether that's a white
person with a black person orvice versa, or someone who's
(51:18):
black with an Asian, so it'squite blended but we're still
going through the same nonsensethat was happening before.
A lot of families got blendedand I think I'm quite looking
away because my partner's black.
So when these things present, Ican talk to someone who looks
like me, who gets it, and I canhave those conversations because
(51:38):
he knows what I'm talking aboutand I feel that gives me
strength in that respect.
And I think sometimes you've gotto have the strength not to let
people's perception harm you,so you kind of have to look
after yourself, make sure thatyou've got some resilience, be
able to self-care as a shield ofprotection, just to protect
(52:03):
your own mental health and togive you strength and clarity.
So there is this saying byGandhi and I'm just going to
paraphrase it, but it'ssomething that I live by.
So Gandhi said don't let peoplewith dirty feet walk in your
head, and that's what I live by.
(52:23):
I won't allow anyone with theirdirty feet to walk in my head
to allow me to find myself incrisis.
So that keeps me strong, keepsme guarded, keeps me centered,
and I make sure that I lookafter my own self-care and make
(52:44):
sure that I know that theancestors that were before me
has given me the strength to goon, and I'm just carrying on
with their work.
So I think, as black people, wedo need to find that solace
that keeps us strong and not toallow outside influences to
bring us down.
But it is a hard task to carrybecause you're having to carry
(53:09):
it all the time.
But I think you need toself-care, be good to yourself
and be kind to yourself and notallow other people's ideology or
thoughts about you affect youin any way, because the best way
to win the enemy is to liveyour best life is to be good to
yourself.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
That was so well said .
That was so well said.
I have nothing to follow thatup with, other than it's been a
pleasure talking to you.
Dawn-Maria France (53:41):
And you, richard.
It's been a delight and I'mglad that you've been inviting
me onto your podcast.
I feel very honored to be onyour show.
Richard Dodds (53:50):
Thanks for coming .
Thank you Again.
I'd like to thank Dymarita forcoming on the show.
You can find out moreinformation about her in the
show notes.
Still Talking Black is a CrownCulture Media LLC production.
You can find out more about itat StillTalkingBlackcom.
But until next time, keepTalking.
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