November 30, 2023 • 42 mins
Have you ever wondered about the stories behind the most dedicated and resilient individuals in the medical profession? Meet Dr. Sylvia Morris, Dr. Angela Walker, and Dr. Diane Boykin, co-authors of "The Game Plan" and pioneers in their own right. Each with a unique tale of struggle, triumph, and an unwavering determination to succeed in the field of medicine, despite some of the odds stacked against them.
Witness through their eyes the challenges they faced in their journey. Not just their personal experiences, but they also shed light on their book, "The Game Plan," a roadmap to navigating medical school and beyond, with advice they wish they had when they were younger. Their stories are a testament to the power of belief, persistence, and mentorship.
Get the Book
THE GAME PLAN: A Woman’s Guide to Becoming a Doctor and Living a Life in Medicine - https://amzn.to/42Tmk2B
About Dr. Morris
Dr. Sylvia E. Morris, MD, MPH is certified by the American Board of Internal Medicine. Dr. Morris’s goal is to utilize media to improve our nation’s public health by combining her training in Internal Medicine and Public Health.
Currently a Hospitalist, Dr. Morris serves on the Johns Hopkins University Berman Institute of Bioethics Advisory Board and Western Governors University College of Health Professions Nursing Advisory Council.
About Dr. Walker
Like many of my fellow Kaiser physicians, I knew I wanted to be a doctor at a very young age. I was five-years-old when I reasoned with my parents that I wanted to help people. There was no light-bulb moment, then or now, I simply love seeing people healthy, happy, and strong. As an OB/GYN, I am passionate about educating women and girls about their bodies. Also, there is nothing more joyful than helping to bring a new life into the world.
About Dr. Boykin
Dr Diane Boykin received her undergraduate degree from Wellesley College in 1990. Before going to medical school she enjoyed working at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston Massachusetts for several years in the tissue typing lab for organ transplant. In 1998, she received her medical degree from Georgetown University. Post graduate training completed in 2002 by finishing her Obstetrics and Gynecology residency from Johns Hopkins University. She currently works for Mid-Atlantic Permanente Medical Group.
Show Credits:
Richard Dodds (Host/Producer): @Doddsism
Show Music: @IAmTheDjBlue
Podcast Website: StillTalkingBlack.com
Still Talking Black is a production of Crowned Culture Media LLC. All rights reserved.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Richard Dodds (00:00):
This is Still Talking Black, a show where we
discuss issues affectingblackness from a black point of
view.
I'm your host, Richard Dyes.
On today's episode, I'm joinedby three of the five authors of
the book the Game Plan, which isa book that helps guide women
through med school.
So, without further ado, I'llleave it off to the doctors.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (00:18):
Good morning.
My name is Sylvia Morris.
I am a physician from LosAngeles, California.
I attended the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley and went
to medical school at GeorgetownUniversity School of Medicine,
where I met my co-authors thatyou will hear from shortly.
I went to public health schoolat Johns Hopkins Bloomberg
(00:39):
School of Public Health and I amvery much a beach girl and very
excited to talk to Richard Doddtoday for Still Talking Black.
Dr. Angela Walker (00:51):
Good morning.
I'm Dr Angela Walker.
I am an OBGYN and I trained atGeorgetown School of Medicine
along with the co-authors forthe Game Plan.
I am a daughter, a mother, awife.
I am currently in the Atlantaarea.
(01:13):
I've delivered babies foralmost 23 of my 25 years.
I'm currently working as amedical director, as well as a
speaker and a coach in promotingwomen's health and wellness and
, ultimately, joy.
Dr. Diane Boykin (01:29):
Good morning everybody.
It's so nice to be here.
I am Dr Diane Boykin.
I grew up in New York, I wentto Wellesley College in
Wellesley, Massachusetts, andthen came down to Washington DC
for Georgetown University Schoolof Medicine, where I met my
co-authors.
I did my OBGYN training atJohns Hopkins University and I
(01:56):
currently am in private practice.
I work for the Mid-AtlanticPermanente Medical Group and I
am also a mother, a wife, afriend, a daughter, and I'm also
now a top doc for Baltimore'smagazine.
Richard Dodds (02:16):
That's amazing.
It's great to have Allie on theshow and it's great to talk to
you all and you have suchextensive backgrounds and I'm
glad y'all tagged the thingsthat matter said mothers, and
that's beautiful to include thatin an introduction too.
So I have a question for all ofyou what made you want to go
(02:36):
into medicine, like what madeyou want to be a doctor?
Dr. Sylvia Morris (02:40):
Well, it's the only thing I've ever wanted
to do.
My mother was a nurse, so I'mthe first position in my family.
My mother actually went tonursing school in Chicago at
Providence Hospital, which is, Ithink, no longer.
My mom is from Saginaw,michigan speaking of Michigan
Absolutely and I was exposedearly on to physicians actually
(03:06):
black physicians, black dentists, and certainly all my mom's
friends were nurses and I justthought this is a good thing to
do.
It's a noble profession,certainly the adage about being
able to help people.
But I'm definitely the kid thatfrom the very beginning, what
do you want to be when you growup?
(03:26):
I want to be a doctor.
So here I am and grateful.
Dr. Angela Walker (03:31):
Yeah, our stories are, tracked, a little
bit the same in that I've known,probably from the age of five,
that I wanted to be a physician.
However, I had no experience.
I mean, I can say that mypreventative medicine was going
to sleep and eating well, andthat was it.
I went to the doctor when I wassick and to get my shots, and
(03:54):
that was essentially it.
So there were certainly somenurses in my family my dad had
nine brothers and sisters but Ididn't have experience with them
directly, I just knew of them,and so I can't really tell you
why I just knew that kind ofwhat you'll hear a lot of
(04:14):
doctors say.
I always wanted to help people,always thought I wanted to be a
pediatrician though Lovepediatrics still do but it was
in medical school.
Once I delivered that first baby, I was like, oh no, this is it,
and I love that track.
But yeah, my whole careerthrough school was geared
(04:36):
towards medicine and I did havea pivot at the end of college
and because I didn't, you know,I got into.
I was waitlisted for a schoolbut didn't get in initially and
worked in pharmaceutical salesand got a taste of having money,
a company car and, you know atrack for a decent career.
(05:00):
And luckily the company Iworked for back then was Merck
and they had us dopreceptorships with doctors, and
so I got to go in with acardiologist into the cath lab
and with the GI doingcolonoscopy and just realized I
(05:21):
missed the mark and had to dowhat I needed to do to prepare
and apply again.
So that was, that was my track.
So I did have the luxury afterI got into medical school of
having some cousins at thatpoint that had entered medicine.
That gave me some guidance.
That was my experience.
Dr. Diane Boykin (05:43):
From the time I was little, I had an interest
in medicine and I had differentexposures, while in high school
working in a pathology lab onesummer and then going on into
college.
I did not have family membersthat were in medicine.
But I always remember this oneexperience and I say this to
(06:07):
anyone that's out there thegreater community can sometimes
really spur us all on, and so mymother had a hair salon at the
time and I was her shampoo girlon the weekend time working to
help out, make some money.
Anyway, I always remember thisone conversation I had with a
(06:31):
lady when I was talking aboutwhat do I want to do in life and
I was considering going tonursing school and again,
nothing wrong with nursingschool for all the wonderful
nurses out there, but I wastaking it because I thought it
was the easier route than goingto medical school.
(06:52):
This was when I was in highschool and I always remember
this conversation with this ladyover the shampoo bowl where she
said do you want to be theperson that's in charge and
running the ship or do you wantto take orders?
And that was a very pivotalmoment in my life because I made
(07:14):
that decision that I wanted tobe the captain of the ship and
as a physician, you're theperson that's really running the
show and directing the care,and so I say that to your
(07:34):
audience that sometimes we havepeople in the community who can
really give positive influence,and this woman has no idea that
that was such a pivotal momentin my life and helped push that
direction that ultimately led tome going into medicine.
Richard Dodds (07:55):
That's amazing.
I always say you never knowwhat little seeds you plant that
could grow into something insomebody else and it sounds like
she's just planting the seed inyou and you're like, all right,
that probably changed thecourse of your life.
That's amazing.
It did, it did and so it soundslike a lot of similar things
(08:16):
and all of it.
I just said for Dr Diane buthow important was it to see
people that look like you inmedicine and feel like all right
, I can be a doctor.
I've seen other people do itlike I can do it myself.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (08:32):
For me it was really important and certainly,
as I've gone through my career,I've been in spaces where I'm
the only person, but it hasalways.
It was helpful for me in sortof my formative years to even if
I didn't have people in myfamily that were physicians by
the time I got to Berkeley.
(08:53):
I met with other pre-medstudents who were people of
color who either had physiciansin their family.
One of my good friends inparticular, dr Carlton Louis.
He was really encouraging andsaid yeah, absolutely You'll be
(09:13):
a doctor, because there aremoments when you are not certain
that you are told conflictingthings by people who don't have
the ability to see and tobelieve as much as what's
possible.
Richard Dodds (09:28):
Wow that's powerful.
Dr. Angela Walker (09:30):
I would say again, I didn't really see a lot
, I just knew that it waspossible and I think that was
because of my parents, when theyknew what I wanted to do, never
made it seem like that wassomething that's not attainable.
Of course that's what you'll do, and my father was I mean his
(09:56):
whole family very big proponenton getting as much as you can
out of your education and goingas far as your potential allows
you, and so I just never feltthat there were limits.
I can say now, after being inpractice and being in medical
(10:17):
school, for example, havingthose African-American
physicians ahead of us thatwould come and talk to us in our
group settings, that was veryvaluable just to see, OK, there
are people ahead of me that aredoing this, that are successful
and, as Dr Morris said,encouraging us along and giving
(10:42):
us that, that mentorship, if youwill.
Dr. Diane Boykin (10:48):
So for my formative years I didn't see
black physicians and blackprofessionals.
I grew up on Long Island, newYork, and very much a
predominantly white community,and so even in my graduating
high school class there were 360students, five of us were black
(11:11):
, and so there wasn't even astrong grouping of African
Americans that were really, youknow, excelling academically.
So it wasn't until I got tocollege when I went to Wellesley
and was amused to be in thisawesome space of other African
(11:33):
American women who wereexcelling academically.
And then on to, of course,georgetown and meeting the
co-authors.
But as far as the role modelsthat came much later in life and
I think back to Georgetown, drChabo, who was, I believe, the
(11:58):
medical director for OBGYNdepartment, and he was just a
wonderful inspiration andcertainly probably contributed
to me going into OBGYN workingwith him.
And then the second one that Iwant to highlight is Dr Raymond
(12:21):
Cox, who was the first AfricanAmerican chairman of the OBGYN
department at the hospital thatI worked at for a long time
Ascension Healthcare C, nagnusHospital, and it is so important
to have those role models andpeople that you can look to and
(12:44):
talk to and just get someguidance.
So, again, for all of yourlisteners.
It is important to try to findthat mentor and as someone who
you can gain inspiration from.
Richard Dodds (13:01):
Yeah, that's amazing Because there's so many
times, especially as minorities,whether it's the world or
whether somebody specificallythey tell us that you can only
be a few things and we can'texcel in everything that we want
to excel.
I say that I feel like blackchildren's dreams usually get
(13:21):
crushed a lot quicker than otherchildren just because it's like
the reality, like you have tohave to talk at a young age and
kind of like burst the bubble.
So it's like it's incredible toalways have people in your
corner that are like pushing you, saying like no, you can't
actually do the things that youwant to do, and I just think
(13:44):
that's like in a very importantpart and it sounds like all
three you have like people inyour life that kept pushing you
forward.
It's like, no, you got it, andI guess we can't get anywhere
really without like support.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (13:56):
So but I would say that you only need one
person.
It's nice if you have more thanone person and that person
probably changes over the courseof your, your lifetime.
So I distinctly remember when Iwas an undergrad, going to the
(14:16):
career office and talking aboutyou know, I want to be a doctor
because my mother had dropped meoff at Berkeley so that I could
graduate, so that I could go tomedical school.
That was the plan, because itwas my plan, and she was like
look, I have four years of moneyfor you at this school.
So this is what we're.
You know, whatever you do, youneed to finish in four years.
(14:39):
It's more like four and a half.
But when I went to the careeroffice and I'm telling this
counselor, you know I'm going tomed school yes, I had probably
average science grades.
My non science grades werereally good, and she told me I
couldn't be a doctor.
And I was like what, what doyou mean?
It was shocking for me to hearthat and I discounted that
(15:04):
because at we had somethingcalled T8, t8, which was sort of
the EOPAA office, which ofcourse now they don't have
anymore.
It's been renamed, butnonetheless there were people
there.
So LaWonga and Sam, and you knowall of these people who were my
(15:24):
tutors for my science classes.
They would say to me oh yeah,love, you'll be fine.
And there were other classmates, upper classmates, who were
applying to medical school andwe're getting in and we're
successful.
So you know, every time I move,there's at least one person
(15:45):
that says you know, hey, you cando this, because in those
moments when you're not certain,when things are not going as
you have planned, you needsomeone that is going to
encourage you and sort ofbolster you against the world,
and it may not necessarily bewithin your own family.
I think that the universebrings you the person or people
(16:08):
that you need at the right time.
We just have to be open.
Richard Dodds (16:12):
Wow, yeah, that's something like people are
saying that you couldn't see.
You even had to face adversitythere.
So, like, what was it like?
Because I'm sure, as peoplelike, when you think about the
intersectionality of being ablack female, there's objections
that society puts on you.
(16:33):
So it's like even like you know, like, oh, like I'm sure, like,
have you ever had the instancebecause I've heard other doctors
say this where, like, you walkinto the room and it's like, oh,
I'm waiting for the doctor, andit's like I am the doctor.
So what was medical school like, being like a black woman?
Like, was it difficult, or wereyou able to find those people
and surround yourself with theright people to make it easier?
Dr. Angela Walker (16:58):
You know, for me personally and I don't want
to bring color in, but it's partof our reality, right, as a
people of color, I'm fairskinned, so sometimes I don't
necessarily provoke the sameideas in people or get the same
response from somebody, but Ithink overall we as a group
(17:24):
excelled because we found ourtribe.
I mean we were with each other.
But our environment, I have tosay, at Georgetown I think, was
a positive experience.
I didn't feel isolated, feltlike we were, you know, part of
the entire class.
I think the environment thereis a good place for someone of
(17:49):
color to be.
But most importantly, you findthe people that are supportive
of you.
And we do have, I guess, now,the issue with, you know,
diversity and inclusion, officesclosing and the support there.
But you can always find yourtribe and I think that's
(18:10):
important to come together as agroup to study, to support.
We did things outside of schooltogether, potlucks, and then we
were involved in medical school, in SNMA Student National
Medical Association, which iswhich was part of the National
Medical Association, you know,traditionally Black Medical
(18:32):
Association and so we hadsupport from faculty that may
have graduated, or maybe notfaculty but alumni that had
graduated and came back thatwould support us.
I certainly do recall asituation in school being kind
(18:53):
of isolated, feeling isolatedfrom a surgery professor who
happened to be talking about myearrings being so big.
We weren't in surgery, we werein a classroom setting, you know
talking.
But I thought to myself youfeel so comfortable pointing me
(19:14):
out and I don't.
I don't see you doing that toanybody else.
I have to say at the time Ijust felt embarrassed and didn't
really internalize it.
As you know I was.
He was just picking on me.
But I realized it later.
But I think because I had somuch support from outside my
group and I guess maybe just theconfidence that I had from, you
(19:39):
know, growing up Black andfeeling proud about it, I didn't
really let that deter me fromfrom what I wanted to do.
Dr. Diane Boykin (19:53):
I've had the experience professionally on
both sides, where I've gone intothe room, I've introduced
myself as Dr Boykin and goneabout to take care of that
patient and then to come to findout they'll say, are you the
nurse?
(20:14):
And say, no, I'm Dr Boykin.
And so there's almost anexpectation that I couldn't be
the doctor because I'm I'm Black, I'm a woman.
But then, likewise, I've alsohad the converse when I've
walked into the room andintroduced myself to the patient
(20:36):
and particularly this happenswith African American patients,
especially older AfricanAmericans they smile and they're
so excited because they're notused to this and and are just
almost that family sense, that apride, because I'm the doctor
(21:00):
and going to take really goodcare of them and so so I've seen
both sides.
I don't I don't take insultfrom it, it's, it's, it's
something that happens and Iredirect and let them know who I
am and then proceed to do allthat I do.
(21:20):
I take care of all differentraces of people and
nationalities and everybody'sgoing to get the same love.
But yeah, that's your, your,your statement and and thought
pattern is something that we doface as as women, as African
American physicians.
Richard Dodds (21:42):
It's sad to have to think about that in today's
age, that you know, like I feel,like I feel it's surprising to
me and the thing that kind ofbrought it to my forefront I
know we talked about it beforewas that it was a picture of a
bunch of Black physicians thathad just graduated and they took
a picture and then there werepeople coming on Like would you
(22:03):
let them take care of you?
And it's like they're doctorsLike you don't even.
You don't even think about it alot of time.
But I am glad that you broughtup the pride side, just because
it's always nice to havesomebody when you go to the
doctor that looks like you, whoknows what you need, who knows
your.
Your place is just a.
You feel like you get adifferent care because it's a
(22:24):
different level of understanding.
They understand that you're aperson.
So I think that's the beautifulside of it.
Dr. Diane Boykin (22:31):
Yes, I do agree with you.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (22:34):
I'm thinking that more often than not, it's
such a privilege to be aphysician and overwhelmingly I
have really great experienceswith my patients and anytime
something happens that is lessthan ideal or less than positive
(22:54):
, it really gives me anopportunity to just sort of
reset and to it's a reminder of,yeah, okay things are, we still
have some room to grow as acountry, but I have had really
great allies along the way, sonot all of my mentors or
(23:17):
supporters sponsors have beenbeen Brad folks.
I've had some wonderfulCaucasian males Dr Eisenberg as
an example who have who werevery supportive for me, and I'd
like to really focus on thepositive and, yes, things that
(23:40):
are unpleasant.
There are some unhappy peoplein the world and I always say
that unhappiness is a diseaseand people show up in our exam
rooms with everything that hashappened to them before so maybe
somebody kicked their dog andtheir car was, was hit or
whatever has happened to them,and they bring all their stuff
(24:01):
with them.
I treat the patient whereverthey are and if they are
bringing their extra stuff inthe room, okay, that's fine, but
I'm still going to provide thehighest quality of care for you
and I'm going to really try notto hold it against you, but yeah
(24:22):
.
So I think of it as anopportunity for me to practice
self compassion and to make surethat I encourage the next
generation of physicians.
So I look at it as an andproposition.
Richard Dodds (24:39):
That's a beautiful outlook and I know
sometimes that like is a toughoutlook, but I think it's such a
beautiful outlook to take withyou and you kind of spoke about,
like, spoke about.
You wanted to talk about thejoy, what was like that biggest
moment of joy for you, for youall, when you started in your
field.
Dr. Angela Walker (24:58):
There are so many moments of joy in in my
field in particular, obgyn whichmost people can envision right
away.
When you say you're OB, mostpeople smile because you
associate it with deliveringbabies and it's, you know, the
most magical thing in the world.
Really.
It never got old there it does,you know.
(25:22):
Luckily the percentage ofsadness and stress is less than
the percentage of joy andhappiness, but it just never got
old.
But even beyond that, being inan office and I'll just tag
(25:44):
along to our conversation beforeabout you know people not
accepting you as a physician, orperhaps thinking that you
shouldn't be in that position,and coming from all different
walks of life, backgrounds, youknow race and ideologies.
What I've found over the yearsis that you know, inherently
(26:05):
people want to be heard and seenand so when you have, no matter
how they come into your office,even those that are mad when
they, you know because they'vehad to wait, because you had to
go deliver a baby and it's been,you know, 30 minutes to 45
minutes past their appointmenttime you know they have that
(26:27):
persona on them when you walk inthe room.
But when you sit down and askthe questions and actually
listen to what they have to sayand they know that you're there
for them and that you're givingthem your time and energy and
you care.
All of that tends to melt awayand that was always and has
(26:47):
always been powerful for me isjust to be the person that can
listen and help solve theproblem and, you know, give the
patient a plan that ultimatelycan hopefully help with their
overall health and wellness.
So I think that's ageneralization, but it
(27:08):
definitely is something I cameout of the office with every
single day, no matter whathappened.
Every day I had those momentsand I think that's again the
privilege of being a physician.
Dr. Diane Boykin (27:22):
Always enjoy the little things, and so the
greatest joy is when a patientsays thank you, you made me feel
good.
I was scared when I came intoyour office for a checkup and
you helped me through, and it'sthat simple.
Then I've done my job.
(27:43):
I've done it really well.
When the patient says I wasscared, but I'm so glad I came
in and you know we take care ofwhatever issue is going on, so
it's that simple.
Richard Dodds (27:57):
That's beautiful.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (27:58):
And I don't think I mentioned that I'm an
internist, which means that Ipractice adult medicine and I
actually only work in aninpatient setting.
So I'm on what you call ahospitalist and for me I get joy
every time I work, becauseyou're in these close spaces
with people and every patient isa person who has a story, and
(28:24):
those stories I find them sofascinating and every time I'm
in a room with a patient I'velearned something.
So maybe it's about what theydo for a living, or maybe it's
about food, or it's about music,because we always have these
moments that both Dr Walker, drBoykin kind of talked about just
(28:47):
being present in the room andallowing, I think of it as a
magic of happening.
So you have two people that aresitting there and we're really
bearing witness to their storyand the only way that we can
provide the best care is if weare listening and we are present
(29:08):
.
It's just because they have thesame diagnosis how they got to
that diagnosis, how we're goingto treat them, is really based
on who that person is as anindividual.
Richard Dodds (29:24):
Wow, that's so important too.
You forget the people.
Part of it sometimes I thinkabout.
Even when going to the doctoryou forget whenever you go and
you get necessarily bad news oranything like that.
I kind of feel compassionatefor the doctor because that's a
part of their day.
Nobody wants to deliver badnews and I can't be mad at the
(29:46):
doctor when you get that badnews.
But sometimes we want to killthe messenger.
So I even try to make sure thatmy mindset is, whenever I'm
going to deal with a situationor somebody in my life is
dealing with a situation, that Itry not to take it out on the
person who's delivering theinformation.
Just because they had todeliver it.
I'm sure that that's not thething that they wanted to
deliver.
So for women looking to getinto the medical field, what
(30:13):
advice would you give them?
Dr. Angela Walker (30:15):
I think one of our most important points in
the book, the game plan istrying to identify mentors.
I think just to put the notionout there that you need to find
a mentor seems daunting to a 17,18, 19, 20, 21 year old.
(30:36):
I've got kids that age and sothey can be timid in trying to
seek that out.
So ask advisors.
Ask if you're in college, ifyou go to your advisor and say,
hey, I'm interested in medicalschool.
Ask for someone that may be amentor in that field in the
(31:01):
community that you're in, sothat you can actually have a
conversation with the person.
It doesn't have to be extensive.
What you'll find is that peoplethat like what they do love to
talk about what they do, and soit doesn't have to.
You don't have to have 20questions prepared.
Typically it's one or two, andat least I can speak for all of
(31:23):
us.
We're more than happy to shareour experiences, and that's
really essentially why we wrotethe book.
We wanted to talk to ouryounger selves about things we
wish we had known before goinginto medical school and the
things that we've talked abouttoday.
For example, you may be toldthat you can't do it, and that's
because the person that toldyou thinks that that may be
(31:47):
their experience.
But there are people that gointo medical school, come from
all walks of life, some thathave gone straight through from
high school, college straight in, those of us that may have
worked a year or two or maybeeven had a full career, and
those that had to takepreparatory classes or
(32:08):
post-baccalaureate programs toboost their resume to get into
medical school.
So I think it's important toknow that if it's your dream, it
can be achieved.
But you have to have that inyour heart.
You can't let anyone tell youthat you can't achieve it,
because there's always a way toget it done.
(32:30):
But I think sinking mentors and, as parents that are maybe
listening, helping them to findmentors For example, those of us
that have, if you're a patientand you have a physician that
you go to asking that physicianhey, my child is interested in
medicine they perhaps talk toyou for five minutes or so.
(32:52):
I find that most of us are morethan willing to give that time,
even though we have super busyschedules, more than happy to
help someone else bring them upalong the way.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (33:07):
I want everyone to be doggedly
persistent at your dream.
No one's going to manifest yourdream except for you, and you
are aware of what you're capableof.
You know if you are putting inthe appropriate amount of effort
, but then, as Dr Walker wassaying, asking for assistance
(33:32):
from those who've already doneit before.
So if you're in anundergraduate situation, then
even talking to your science andnon-science professors because
you're going to need letters ofrecommendations and, honestly,
having a conversation withsomeone who's been on the earth
(33:54):
a little bit longer, who may beable to share some useful advice
, is helpful.
So just be persistent.
Know that you are already aphysician, or you're already a
dentist, or you're already anentrepreneur whatever that thing
is for you and continue to moveforward.
Dr. Diane Boykin (34:20):
I will just add one more small point, and
that is just continue to believein yourself.
Richard Dodds (34:28):
I feel like that is valuable, no matter what
field you're trying to go into.
I love that at different points, you all brought out the very
positive of it, just because Ifeel like sometimes especially
even me when I research a topicor when I'm watching the news,
you tend to get hyper-focused onthe negative.
(34:48):
I feel like during thisconversation, a lot of times,
each of you have refocused offof the negative onto the
positive, and then the negativebecomes like an outlier again,
and I think that is a healthyway of processing all of the
massive amounts of badinformation that we get on a
daily basis.
Like that, not as in like theinformation is bad, but it's
(35:10):
negative our training on yoursoul and on your psyche.
So I think that's beautiful andI love the fact that all three
of you have done that.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (35:20):
We get to choose what we focus on, and if
you always focus on the negative, you're only going to see more
negative.
We also have the benefit ofhaving been on the earth a
little while, shall we say, andjust being able to know that
(35:42):
okay.
Well, maybe this isn't myparticular season or my
particular moment, but if Ipivot, like when Dr Walker uses
that word, if I pivot and if Ibelieve in myself, like Dr
Boykin was saying, then goodthings can happen.
And I have been fortunateenough to be surrounded by a
(36:03):
sisterhood, so my co-authors arenot simply my co-authors,
they're my friends.
And we actually just got backfrom our first girl's trip since
the pandemic, since 2019, wewere in Miami and we were really
able to kind of recharge and toreconnect and that's really
(36:25):
important to have people who aregoing to cheer you on, although
they may be doing somethingdifferent.
Certainly, we have differentspecialties, we have different
career paths, but I know, when Ilook to have someone who is
going to tell me the truth butthen also help me move forward
(36:48):
and be supportive andencouraging.
I have a tribe, as Dr Walkersaid earlier.
So we want to focus on thepositive, knowing that negative
exists, but we are trying to bemore light in the world.
Richard Dodds (37:06):
I think that's very beautiful and very
important too.
I want to come back to yourbook.
The name of your book is theGameplan A Woman's Guide to
Becoming a Doctor and Living aLife in Medicine.
What are some of the biggesttakeaways?
One I do want to note that,just because there's three
African American women thatwrote the book, this book is for
(37:27):
all women.
It is not just for black women.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (37:30):
Five.
We have five authors, fiveauthors, five authors.
Yeah, we're leaving by the end.
Apologize, apologize.
Dr Leah Matthews and Dr JessicaOsborn are also the other
co-authors Apologize.
Richard Dodds (37:42):
So just because you see so many beautiful black
women writing this book does notmean it is just for black women
.
What are some of the biggesttakeaways that people can expect
to find in reading this book?
And is it just for women, or isthere a takeaway that men would
be able to find from reading itas well?
Dr. Angela Walker (38:04):
Yeah, I think that I'll just name one of the
biggest ones you'll find in thebook is that we're just real.
We're real people, real lives,and we give a lot of texture to
the process of becoming aphysician.
So we give you a game plan, astep-by-step process, but a lot
(38:25):
of inside information, if youwill, about our lives, about our
journey individually, whetherit be with family friends, as
caretakers for our parents, butalso the values of friendships
which we talk about a lot in ourbook.
(38:46):
So giving a lot of context andindividual experience, I think,
is one thing that sets this bookapart from a typical manual on
how to go to medical school andhow to become a physician.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (39:07):
And when you inquire about sort of the
message for men, so certainly wewant men to purchase our book
For men who are interested ingoing to medical school.
This also works because we'vetalked a lot about mentorship
and sponsorship.
If you want to pivot duringyour career.
(39:29):
We talk about once you finishmedical school and you're in
training and have some tips onhow to navigate the postgraduate
world and the early careerworld as well.
But the other message I thinkfor men is just the ability for
them to continue to be alliesfor their girlfriend, wife,
(39:56):
sister, niece who is embarkingon a career in medicine.
Uncle William is my favoriteuncle.
He will tell you he's my onlyuncle, but that's beside the
point.
He's my favorite uncle and hehas always been in my corner,
and certainly my parents werealways there as well.
(40:19):
But when I think about if Ineeded something during med
school or especially early in mycareer when I was making pivots
every couple years, shall wesay, he was always my sounding
board.
So there will be men who arealso really great encouragers
(40:43):
and able to kind of help move usalong the path.
So we thank them for that.
Dr. Diane Boykin (40:51):
I think both of the authors have said
everything, so I don't haveanything else to add to that
point.
Richard Dodds (40:58):
Okay, I always like as a man, I always try to
see like a woman's point of view, just because everybody has a
unique set of things that theyhave to deal with, and I just
want to make sure I know whatthose things are so I can be
supportive in those areas.
So, for me, like that, I thinkyou hit it right on the head,
like, yeah, so like, guys, goget the book too.
Like, if you want to support,support the women in your lives,
(41:21):
we want to go into medicine.
So, again, I want to thank allthree of you for coming on the
show.
Is there anything else beforewe wrap up that any of you want
to say, or any last thoughts?
Dr. Sylvia Morris (41:36):
Certainly, if you have not yet purchased the
book, but now you are interested, you can go to Amazon.
Our book is available on Amazonfor purchase and also our
website, adjlslccom, and thankyou very much for having us.
This has been a greatconversation.
Thank you, thank you.
Richard Dodds (41:58):
I'll make sure that I put everything all in the
show notes.
So if you want to click thelink to go get that book on
Amazon, it'll be right there foryou.
Well, thank you all again.
I appreciate you coming on theshow.
Dr. Angela Walker (42:10):
Thank you for the opportunity.
Richard Dodds (42:12):
Thank you.
Thank you Again.
I would like to thank all threeof the doctors for coming on
the show.
You can find out moreinformation about them in the
show notes.
Still talking black is a CrownCulture Media LLC production.
You can find out more about itat stilltalkinblackcom.
But until next time, keeptalking.
This is Still Talking Black, a show where we
discuss issues affectingblackness from a black point of
view.
I'm your host, Richard Dyes.
On today's episode, I'm joinedby three of the five authors of
the book the Game Plan, which isa book that helps guide women
through med school.
So, without further ado, I'llleave it off to the doctors.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (00:18):
Good morning.
My name is Sylvia Morris.
I am a physician from LosAngeles, California.
I attended the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley and went
to medical school at GeorgetownUniversity School of Medicine,
where I met my co-authors thatyou will hear from shortly.
I went to public health schoolat Johns Hopkins Bloomberg
(00:39):
School of Public Health and I amvery much a beach girl and very
excited to talk to Richard Doddtoday for Still Talking Black.
Dr. Angela Walker (00:51):
Good morning.
I'm Dr Angela Walker.
I am an OBGYN and I trained atGeorgetown School of Medicine
along with the co-authors forthe Game Plan.
I am a daughter, a mother, awife.
I am currently in the Atlantaarea.
(01:13):
I've delivered babies foralmost 23 of my 25 years.
I'm currently working as amedical director, as well as a
speaker and a coach in promotingwomen's health and wellness and
, ultimately, joy.
Dr. Diane Boykin (01:29):
Good morning everybody.
It's so nice to be here.
I am Dr Diane Boykin.
I grew up in New York, I wentto Wellesley College in
Wellesley, Massachusetts, andthen came down to Washington DC
for Georgetown University Schoolof Medicine, where I met my
co-authors.
I did my OBGYN training atJohns Hopkins University and I
(01:56):
currently am in private practice.
I work for the Mid-AtlanticPermanente Medical Group and I
am also a mother, a wife, afriend, a daughter, and I'm also
now a top doc for Baltimore'smagazine.
Richard Dodds (02:16):
That's amazing.
It's great to have Allie on theshow and it's great to talk to
you all and you have suchextensive backgrounds and I'm
glad y'all tagged the thingsthat matter said mothers, and
that's beautiful to include thatin an introduction too.
So I have a question for all ofyou what made you want to go
(02:36):
into medicine, like what madeyou want to be a doctor?
Dr. Sylvia Morris (02:40):
Well, it's the only thing I've ever wanted
to do.
My mother was a nurse, so I'mthe first position in my family.
My mother actually went tonursing school in Chicago at
Providence Hospital, which is, Ithink, no longer.
My mom is from Saginaw,michigan speaking of Michigan
Absolutely and I was exposedearly on to physicians actually
(03:06):
black physicians, black dentists, and certainly all my mom's
friends were nurses and I justthought this is a good thing to
do.
It's a noble profession,certainly the adage about being
able to help people.
But I'm definitely the kid thatfrom the very beginning, what
do you want to be when you growup?
(03:26):
I want to be a doctor.
So here I am and grateful.
Dr. Angela Walker (03:31):
Yeah, our stories are, tracked, a little
bit the same in that I've known,probably from the age of five,
that I wanted to be a physician.
However, I had no experience.
I mean, I can say that mypreventative medicine was going
to sleep and eating well, andthat was it.
I went to the doctor when I wassick and to get my shots, and
(03:54):
that was essentially it.
So there were certainly somenurses in my family my dad had
nine brothers and sisters but Ididn't have experience with them
directly, I just knew of them,and so I can't really tell you
why I just knew that kind ofwhat you'll hear a lot of
(04:14):
doctors say.
I always wanted to help people,always thought I wanted to be a
pediatrician though Lovepediatrics still do but it was
in medical school.
Once I delivered that first baby, I was like, oh no, this is it,
and I love that track.
But yeah, my whole careerthrough school was geared
(04:36):
towards medicine and I did havea pivot at the end of college
and because I didn't, you know,I got into.
I was waitlisted for a schoolbut didn't get in initially and
worked in pharmaceutical salesand got a taste of having money,
a company car and, you know atrack for a decent career.
(05:00):
And luckily the company Iworked for back then was Merck
and they had us dopreceptorships with doctors, and
so I got to go in with acardiologist into the cath lab
and with the GI doingcolonoscopy and just realized I
(05:21):
missed the mark and had to dowhat I needed to do to prepare
and apply again.
So that was, that was my track.
So I did have the luxury afterI got into medical school of
having some cousins at thatpoint that had entered medicine.
That gave me some guidance.
That was my experience.
Dr. Diane Boykin (05:43):
From the time I was little, I had an interest
in medicine and I had differentexposures, while in high school
working in a pathology lab onesummer and then going on into
college.
I did not have family membersthat were in medicine.
But I always remember this oneexperience and I say this to
(06:07):
anyone that's out there thegreater community can sometimes
really spur us all on, and so mymother had a hair salon at the
time and I was her shampoo girlon the weekend time working to
help out, make some money.
Anyway, I always remember thisone conversation I had with a
(06:31):
lady when I was talking aboutwhat do I want to do in life and
I was considering going tonursing school and again,
nothing wrong with nursingschool for all the wonderful
nurses out there, but I wastaking it because I thought it
was the easier route than goingto medical school.
(06:52):
This was when I was in highschool and I always remember
this conversation with this ladyover the shampoo bowl where she
said do you want to be theperson that's in charge and
running the ship or do you wantto take orders?
And that was a very pivotalmoment in my life because I made
(07:14):
that decision that I wanted tobe the captain of the ship and
as a physician, you're theperson that's really running the
show and directing the care,and so I say that to your
(07:34):
audience that sometimes we havepeople in the community who can
really give positive influence,and this woman has no idea that
that was such a pivotal momentin my life and helped push that
direction that ultimately led tome going into medicine.
Richard Dodds (07:55):
That's amazing.
I always say you never knowwhat little seeds you plant that
could grow into something insomebody else and it sounds like
she's just planting the seed inyou and you're like, all right,
that probably changed thecourse of your life.
That's amazing.
It did, it did and so it soundslike a lot of similar things
(08:16):
and all of it.
I just said for Dr Diane buthow important was it to see
people that look like you inmedicine and feel like all right
, I can be a doctor.
I've seen other people do itlike I can do it myself.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (08:32):
For me it was really important and certainly,
as I've gone through my career,I've been in spaces where I'm
the only person, but it hasalways.
It was helpful for me in sortof my formative years to even if
I didn't have people in myfamily that were physicians by
the time I got to Berkeley.
(08:53):
I met with other pre-medstudents who were people of
color who either had physiciansin their family.
One of my good friends inparticular, dr Carlton Louis.
He was really encouraging andsaid yeah, absolutely You'll be
(09:13):
a doctor, because there aremoments when you are not certain
that you are told conflictingthings by people who don't have
the ability to see and tobelieve as much as what's
possible.
Richard Dodds (09:28):
Wow that's powerful.
Dr. Angela Walker (09:30):
I would say again, I didn't really see a lot
, I just knew that it waspossible and I think that was
because of my parents, when theyknew what I wanted to do, never
made it seem like that wassomething that's not attainable.
Of course that's what you'll do, and my father was I mean his
(09:56):
whole family very big proponenton getting as much as you can
out of your education and goingas far as your potential allows
you, and so I just never feltthat there were limits.
I can say now, after being inpractice and being in medical
(10:17):
school, for example, havingthose African-American
physicians ahead of us thatwould come and talk to us in our
group settings, that was veryvaluable just to see, OK, there
are people ahead of me that aredoing this, that are successful
and, as Dr Morris said,encouraging us along and giving
(10:42):
us that, that mentorship, if youwill.
Dr. Diane Boykin (10:48):
So for my formative years I didn't see
black physicians and blackprofessionals.
I grew up on Long Island, newYork, and very much a
predominantly white community,and so even in my graduating
high school class there were 360students, five of us were black
(11:11):
, and so there wasn't even astrong grouping of African
Americans that were really, youknow, excelling academically.
So it wasn't until I got tocollege when I went to Wellesley
and was amused to be in thisawesome space of other African
(11:33):
American women who wereexcelling academically.
And then on to, of course,georgetown and meeting the
co-authors.
But as far as the role modelsthat came much later in life and
I think back to Georgetown, drChabo, who was, I believe, the
(11:58):
medical director for OBGYNdepartment, and he was just a
wonderful inspiration andcertainly probably contributed
to me going into OBGYN workingwith him.
And then the second one that Iwant to highlight is Dr Raymond
(12:21):
Cox, who was the first AfricanAmerican chairman of the OBGYN
department at the hospital thatI worked at for a long time
Ascension Healthcare C, nagnusHospital, and it is so important
to have those role models andpeople that you can look to and
(12:44):
talk to and just get someguidance.
So, again, for all of yourlisteners.
It is important to try to findthat mentor and as someone who
you can gain inspiration from.
Richard Dodds (13:01):
Yeah, that's amazing Because there's so many
times, especially as minorities,whether it's the world or
whether somebody specificallythey tell us that you can only
be a few things and we can'texcel in everything that we want
to excel.
I say that I feel like blackchildren's dreams usually get
(13:21):
crushed a lot quicker than otherchildren just because it's like
the reality, like you have tohave to talk at a young age and
kind of like burst the bubble.
So it's like it's incredible toalways have people in your
corner that are like pushing you, saying like no, you can't
actually do the things that youwant to do, and I just think
(13:44):
that's like in a very importantpart and it sounds like all
three you have like people inyour life that kept pushing you
forward.
It's like, no, you got it, andI guess we can't get anywhere
really without like support.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (13:56):
So but I would say that you only need one
person.
It's nice if you have more thanone person and that person
probably changes over the courseof your, your lifetime.
So I distinctly remember when Iwas an undergrad, going to the
(14:16):
career office and talking aboutyou know, I want to be a doctor
because my mother had dropped meoff at Berkeley so that I could
graduate, so that I could go tomedical school.
That was the plan, because itwas my plan, and she was like
look, I have four years of moneyfor you at this school.
So this is what we're.
You know, whatever you do, youneed to finish in four years.
(14:39):
It's more like four and a half.
But when I went to the careeroffice and I'm telling this
counselor, you know I'm going tomed school yes, I had probably
average science grades.
My non science grades werereally good, and she told me I
couldn't be a doctor.
And I was like what, what doyou mean?
It was shocking for me to hearthat and I discounted that
(15:04):
because at we had somethingcalled T8, t8, which was sort of
the EOPAA office, which ofcourse now they don't have
anymore.
It's been renamed, butnonetheless there were people
there.
So LaWonga and Sam, and you knowall of these people who were my
(15:24):
tutors for my science classes.
They would say to me oh yeah,love, you'll be fine.
And there were other classmates, upper classmates, who were
applying to medical school andwe're getting in and we're
successful.
So you know, every time I move,there's at least one person
(15:45):
that says you know, hey, you cando this, because in those
moments when you're not certain,when things are not going as
you have planned, you needsomeone that is going to
encourage you and sort ofbolster you against the world,
and it may not necessarily bewithin your own family.
I think that the universebrings you the person or people
(16:08):
that you need at the right time.
We just have to be open.
Richard Dodds (16:12):
Wow, yeah, that's something like people are
saying that you couldn't see.
You even had to face adversitythere.
So, like, what was it like?
Because I'm sure, as peoplelike, when you think about the
intersectionality of being ablack female, there's objections
that society puts on you.
(16:33):
So it's like even like you know, like, oh, like I'm sure, like,
have you ever had the instancebecause I've heard other doctors
say this where, like, you walkinto the room and it's like, oh,
I'm waiting for the doctor, andit's like I am the doctor.
So what was medical school like, being like a black woman?
Like, was it difficult, or wereyou able to find those people
and surround yourself with theright people to make it easier?
Dr. Angela Walker (16:58):
You know, for me personally and I don't want
to bring color in, but it's partof our reality, right, as a
people of color, I'm fairskinned, so sometimes I don't
necessarily provoke the sameideas in people or get the same
response from somebody, but Ithink overall we as a group
(17:24):
excelled because we found ourtribe.
I mean we were with each other.
But our environment, I have tosay, at Georgetown I think, was
a positive experience.
I didn't feel isolated, feltlike we were, you know, part of
the entire class.
I think the environment thereis a good place for someone of
(17:49):
color to be.
But most importantly, you findthe people that are supportive
of you.
And we do have, I guess, now,the issue with, you know,
diversity and inclusion, officesclosing and the support there.
But you can always find yourtribe and I think that's
(18:10):
important to come together as agroup to study, to support.
We did things outside of schooltogether, potlucks, and then we
were involved in medical school, in SNMA Student National
Medical Association, which iswhich was part of the National
Medical Association, you know,traditionally Black Medical
(18:32):
Association and so we hadsupport from faculty that may
have graduated, or maybe notfaculty but alumni that had
graduated and came back thatwould support us.
I certainly do recall asituation in school being kind
(18:53):
of isolated, feeling isolatedfrom a surgery professor who
happened to be talking about myearrings being so big.
We weren't in surgery, we werein a classroom setting, you know
talking.
But I thought to myself youfeel so comfortable pointing me
(19:14):
out and I don't.
I don't see you doing that toanybody else.
I have to say at the time Ijust felt embarrassed and didn't
really internalize it.
As you know I was.
He was just picking on me.
But I realized it later.
But I think because I had somuch support from outside my
group and I guess maybe just theconfidence that I had from, you
(19:39):
know, growing up Black andfeeling proud about it, I didn't
really let that deter me fromfrom what I wanted to do.
Dr. Diane Boykin (19:53):
I've had the experience professionally on
both sides, where I've gone intothe room, I've introduced
myself as Dr Boykin and goneabout to take care of that
patient and then to come to findout they'll say, are you the
nurse?
(20:14):
And say, no, I'm Dr Boykin.
And so there's almost anexpectation that I couldn't be
the doctor because I'm I'm Black, I'm a woman.
But then, likewise, I've alsohad the converse when I've
walked into the room andintroduced myself to the patient
(20:36):
and particularly this happenswith African American patients,
especially older AfricanAmericans they smile and they're
so excited because they're notused to this and and are just
almost that family sense, that apride, because I'm the doctor
(21:00):
and going to take really goodcare of them and so so I've seen
both sides.
I don't I don't take insultfrom it, it's, it's, it's
something that happens and Iredirect and let them know who I
am and then proceed to do allthat I do.
(21:20):
I take care of all differentraces of people and
nationalities and everybody'sgoing to get the same love.
But yeah, that's your, your,your statement and and thought
pattern is something that we doface as as women, as African
American physicians.
Richard Dodds (21:42):
It's sad to have to think about that in today's
age, that you know, like I feel,like I feel it's surprising to
me and the thing that kind ofbrought it to my forefront I
know we talked about it beforewas that it was a picture of a
bunch of Black physicians thathad just graduated and they took
a picture and then there werepeople coming on Like would you
(22:03):
let them take care of you?
And it's like they're doctorsLike you don't even.
You don't even think about it alot of time.
But I am glad that you broughtup the pride side, just because
it's always nice to havesomebody when you go to the
doctor that looks like you, whoknows what you need, who knows
your.
Your place is just a.
You feel like you get adifferent care because it's a
(22:24):
different level of understanding.
They understand that you're aperson.
So I think that's the beautifulside of it.
Dr. Diane Boykin (22:31):
Yes, I do agree with you.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (22:34):
I'm thinking that more often than not, it's
such a privilege to be aphysician and overwhelmingly I
have really great experienceswith my patients and anytime
something happens that is lessthan ideal or less than positive
(22:54):
, it really gives me anopportunity to just sort of
reset and to it's a reminder of,yeah, okay things are, we still
have some room to grow as acountry, but I have had really
great allies along the way, sonot all of my mentors or
(23:17):
supporters sponsors have beenbeen Brad folks.
I've had some wonderfulCaucasian males Dr Eisenberg as
an example who have who werevery supportive for me, and I'd
like to really focus on thepositive and, yes, things that
(23:40):
are unpleasant.
There are some unhappy peoplein the world and I always say
that unhappiness is a diseaseand people show up in our exam
rooms with everything that hashappened to them before so maybe
somebody kicked their dog andtheir car was, was hit or
whatever has happened to them,and they bring all their stuff
(24:01):
with them.
I treat the patient whereverthey are and if they are
bringing their extra stuff inthe room, okay, that's fine, but
I'm still going to provide thehighest quality of care for you
and I'm going to really try notto hold it against you, but yeah
(24:22):
.
So I think of it as anopportunity for me to practice
self compassion and to make surethat I encourage the next
generation of physicians.
So I look at it as an andproposition.
Richard Dodds (24:39):
That's a beautiful outlook and I know
sometimes that like is a toughoutlook, but I think it's such a
beautiful outlook to take withyou and you kind of spoke about,
like, spoke about.
You wanted to talk about thejoy, what was like that biggest
moment of joy for you, for youall, when you started in your
field.
Dr. Angela Walker (24:58):
There are so many moments of joy in in my
field in particular, obgyn whichmost people can envision right
away.
When you say you're OB, mostpeople smile because you
associate it with deliveringbabies and it's, you know, the
most magical thing in the world.
Really.
It never got old there it does,you know.
(25:22):
Luckily the percentage ofsadness and stress is less than
the percentage of joy andhappiness, but it just never got
old.
But even beyond that, being inan office and I'll just tag
(25:44):
along to our conversation beforeabout you know people not
accepting you as a physician, orperhaps thinking that you
shouldn't be in that position,and coming from all different
walks of life, backgrounds, youknow race and ideologies.
What I've found over the yearsis that you know, inherently
(26:05):
people want to be heard and seenand so when you have, no matter
how they come into your office,even those that are mad when
they, you know because they'vehad to wait, because you had to
go deliver a baby and it's been,you know, 30 minutes to 45
minutes past their appointmenttime you know they have that
(26:27):
persona on them when you walk inthe room.
But when you sit down and askthe questions and actually
listen to what they have to sayand they know that you're there
for them and that you're givingthem your time and energy and
you care.
All of that tends to melt awayand that was always and has
(26:47):
always been powerful for me isjust to be the person that can
listen and help solve theproblem and, you know, give the
patient a plan that ultimatelycan hopefully help with their
overall health and wellness.
So I think that's ageneralization, but it
(27:08):
definitely is something I cameout of the office with every
single day, no matter whathappened.
Every day I had those momentsand I think that's again the
privilege of being a physician.
Dr. Diane Boykin (27:22):
Always enjoy the little things, and so the
greatest joy is when a patientsays thank you, you made me feel
good.
I was scared when I came intoyour office for a checkup and
you helped me through, and it'sthat simple.
Then I've done my job.
(27:43):
I've done it really well.
When the patient says I wasscared, but I'm so glad I came
in and you know we take care ofwhatever issue is going on, so
it's that simple.
Richard Dodds (27:57):
That's beautiful.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (27:58):
And I don't think I mentioned that I'm an
internist, which means that Ipractice adult medicine and I
actually only work in aninpatient setting.
So I'm on what you call ahospitalist and for me I get joy
every time I work, becauseyou're in these close spaces
with people and every patient isa person who has a story, and
(28:24):
those stories I find them sofascinating and every time I'm
in a room with a patient I'velearned something.
So maybe it's about what theydo for a living, or maybe it's
about food, or it's about music,because we always have these
moments that both Dr Walker, drBoykin kind of talked about just
(28:47):
being present in the room andallowing, I think of it as a
magic of happening.
So you have two people that aresitting there and we're really
bearing witness to their storyand the only way that we can
provide the best care is if weare listening and we are present
(29:08):
.
It's just because they have thesame diagnosis how they got to
that diagnosis, how we're goingto treat them, is really based
on who that person is as anindividual.
Richard Dodds (29:24):
Wow, that's so important too.
You forget the people.
Part of it sometimes I thinkabout.
Even when going to the doctoryou forget whenever you go and
you get necessarily bad news oranything like that.
I kind of feel compassionatefor the doctor because that's a
part of their day.
Nobody wants to deliver badnews and I can't be mad at the
(29:46):
doctor when you get that badnews.
But sometimes we want to killthe messenger.
So I even try to make sure thatmy mindset is, whenever I'm
going to deal with a situationor somebody in my life is
dealing with a situation, that Itry not to take it out on the
person who's delivering theinformation.
Just because they had todeliver it.
I'm sure that that's not thething that they wanted to
deliver.
So for women looking to getinto the medical field, what
(30:13):
advice would you give them?
Dr. Angela Walker (30:15):
I think one of our most important points in
the book, the game plan istrying to identify mentors.
I think just to put the notionout there that you need to find
a mentor seems daunting to a 17,18, 19, 20, 21 year old.
(30:36):
I've got kids that age and sothey can be timid in trying to
seek that out.
So ask advisors.
Ask if you're in college, ifyou go to your advisor and say,
hey, I'm interested in medicalschool.
Ask for someone that may be amentor in that field in the
(31:01):
community that you're in, sothat you can actually have a
conversation with the person.
It doesn't have to be extensive.
What you'll find is that peoplethat like what they do love to
talk about what they do, and soit doesn't have to.
You don't have to have 20questions prepared.
Typically it's one or two, andat least I can speak for all of
(31:23):
us.
We're more than happy to shareour experiences, and that's
really essentially why we wrotethe book.
We wanted to talk to ouryounger selves about things we
wish we had known before goinginto medical school and the
things that we've talked abouttoday.
For example, you may be toldthat you can't do it, and that's
because the person that toldyou thinks that that may be
(31:47):
their experience.
But there are people that gointo medical school, come from
all walks of life, some thathave gone straight through from
high school, college straight in, those of us that may have
worked a year or two or maybeeven had a full career, and
those that had to takepreparatory classes or
(32:08):
post-baccalaureate programs toboost their resume to get into
medical school.
So I think it's important toknow that if it's your dream, it
can be achieved.
But you have to have that inyour heart.
You can't let anyone tell youthat you can't achieve it,
because there's always a way toget it done.
(32:30):
But I think sinking mentors and, as parents that are maybe
listening, helping them to findmentors For example, those of us
that have, if you're a patientand you have a physician that
you go to asking that physicianhey, my child is interested in
medicine they perhaps talk toyou for five minutes or so.
(32:52):
I find that most of us are morethan willing to give that time,
even though we have super busyschedules, more than happy to
help someone else bring them upalong the way.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (33:07):
I want everyone to be doggedly
persistent at your dream.
No one's going to manifest yourdream except for you, and you
are aware of what you're capableof.
You know if you are putting inthe appropriate amount of effort
, but then, as Dr Walker wassaying, asking for assistance
(33:32):
from those who've already doneit before.
So if you're in anundergraduate situation, then
even talking to your science andnon-science professors because
you're going to need letters ofrecommendations and, honestly,
having a conversation withsomeone who's been on the earth
(33:54):
a little bit longer, who may beable to share some useful advice
, is helpful.
So just be persistent.
Know that you are already aphysician, or you're already a
dentist, or you're already anentrepreneur whatever that thing
is for you and continue to moveforward.
Dr. Diane Boykin (34:20):
I will just add one more small point, and
that is just continue to believein yourself.
Richard Dodds (34:28):
I feel like that is valuable, no matter what
field you're trying to go into.
I love that at different points, you all brought out the very
positive of it, just because Ifeel like sometimes especially
even me when I research a topicor when I'm watching the news,
you tend to get hyper-focused onthe negative.
(34:48):
I feel like during thisconversation, a lot of times,
each of you have refocused offof the negative onto the
positive, and then the negativebecomes like an outlier again,
and I think that is a healthyway of processing all of the
massive amounts of badinformation that we get on a
daily basis.
Like that, not as in like theinformation is bad, but it's
(35:10):
negative our training on yoursoul and on your psyche.
So I think that's beautiful andI love the fact that all three
of you have done that.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (35:20):
We get to choose what we focus on, and if
you always focus on the negative, you're only going to see more
negative.
We also have the benefit ofhaving been on the earth a
little while, shall we say, andjust being able to know that
(35:42):
okay.
Well, maybe this isn't myparticular season or my
particular moment, but if Ipivot, like when Dr Walker uses
that word, if I pivot and if Ibelieve in myself, like Dr
Boykin was saying, then goodthings can happen.
And I have been fortunateenough to be surrounded by a
(36:03):
sisterhood, so my co-authors arenot simply my co-authors,
they're my friends.
And we actually just got backfrom our first girl's trip since
the pandemic, since 2019, wewere in Miami and we were really
able to kind of recharge and toreconnect and that's really
(36:25):
important to have people who aregoing to cheer you on, although
they may be doing somethingdifferent.
Certainly, we have differentspecialties, we have different
career paths, but I know, when Ilook to have someone who is
going to tell me the truth butthen also help me move forward
(36:48):
and be supportive andencouraging.
I have a tribe, as Dr Walkersaid earlier.
So we want to focus on thepositive, knowing that negative
exists, but we are trying to bemore light in the world.
Richard Dodds (37:06):
I think that's very beautiful and very
important too.
I want to come back to yourbook.
The name of your book is theGameplan A Woman's Guide to
Becoming a Doctor and Living aLife in Medicine.
What are some of the biggesttakeaways?
One I do want to note that,just because there's three
African American women thatwrote the book, this book is for
(37:27):
all women.
It is not just for black women.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (37:30):
Five.
We have five authors, fiveauthors, five authors.
Yeah, we're leaving by the end.
Apologize, apologize.
Dr Leah Matthews and Dr JessicaOsborn are also the other
co-authors Apologize.
Richard Dodds (37:42):
So just because you see so many beautiful black
women writing this book does notmean it is just for black women
.
What are some of the biggesttakeaways that people can expect
to find in reading this book?
And is it just for women, or isthere a takeaway that men would
be able to find from reading itas well?
Dr. Angela Walker (38:04):
Yeah, I think that I'll just name one of the
biggest ones you'll find in thebook is that we're just real.
We're real people, real lives,and we give a lot of texture to
the process of becoming aphysician.
So we give you a game plan, astep-by-step process, but a lot
(38:25):
of inside information, if youwill, about our lives, about our
journey individually, whetherit be with family friends, as
caretakers for our parents, butalso the values of friendships
which we talk about a lot in ourbook.
(38:46):
So giving a lot of context andindividual experience, I think,
is one thing that sets this bookapart from a typical manual on
how to go to medical school andhow to become a physician.
Dr. Sylvia Morris (39:07):
And when you inquire about sort of the
message for men, so certainly wewant men to purchase our book
For men who are interested ingoing to medical school.
This also works because we'vetalked a lot about mentorship
and sponsorship.
If you want to pivot duringyour career.
(39:29):
We talk about once you finishmedical school and you're in
training and have some tips onhow to navigate the postgraduate
world and the early careerworld as well.
But the other message I thinkfor men is just the ability for
them to continue to be alliesfor their girlfriend, wife,
(39:56):
sister, niece who is embarkingon a career in medicine.
Uncle William is my favoriteuncle.
He will tell you he's my onlyuncle, but that's beside the
point.
He's my favorite uncle and hehas always been in my corner,
and certainly my parents werealways there as well.
(40:19):
But when I think about if Ineeded something during med
school or especially early in mycareer when I was making pivots
every couple years, shall wesay, he was always my sounding
board.
So there will be men who arealso really great encouragers
(40:43):
and able to kind of help move usalong the path.
So we thank them for that.
Dr. Diane Boykin (40:51):
I think both of the authors have said
everything, so I don't haveanything else to add to that
point.
Richard Dodds (40:58):
Okay, I always like as a man, I always try to
see like a woman's point of view, just because everybody has a
unique set of things that theyhave to deal with, and I just
want to make sure I know whatthose things are so I can be
supportive in those areas.
So, for me, like that, I thinkyou hit it right on the head,
like, yeah, so like, guys, goget the book too.
Like, if you want to support,support the women in your lives,
(41:21):
we want to go into medicine.
So, again, I want to thank allthree of you for coming on the
show.
Is there anything else beforewe wrap up that any of you want
to say, or any last thoughts?
Dr. Sylvia Morris (41:36):
Certainly, if you have not yet purchased the
book, but now you are interested, you can go to Amazon.
Our book is available on Amazonfor purchase and also our
website, adjlslccom, and thankyou very much for having us.
This has been a greatconversation.
Thank you, thank you.
Richard Dodds (41:58):
I'll make sure that I put everything all in the
show notes.
So if you want to click thelink to go get that book on
Amazon, it'll be right there foryou.
Well, thank you all again.
I appreciate you coming on theshow.
Dr. Angela Walker (42:10):
Thank you for the opportunity.
Richard Dodds (42:12):
Thank you.
Thank you Again.
I would like to thank all threeof the doctors for coming on
the show.
You can find out moreinformation about them in the
show notes.
Still talking black is a CrownCulture Media LLC production.
You can find out more about itat stilltalkinblackcom.
But until next time, keeptalking.
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