December 6, 2024 • 54 mins
On December 23rd, 1974. Mary Rachel Trlica, Lisa Renee Wilson, and Julie Ann Moseley decided to enjoy some last minute Christmas shopping at Seminary South Shopping Center in Fort Worth, Texas.
Unfortunately, a fun little shopping trip turned into a missing persons case when the girls never returned home. Come join us as we dive into this very interesting case of the Fort Worth disappearance.
Pack a bowl, get your snacks ready, and we'll see you there. Until next time, stay high, stay SAFE, and thanks for listening!
If you prefer video, we are on Spotify and YouTube @StonedColdMurder
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Happy 420. I'm Kai and I'm Queen reefer. You're watching stone cold murder
(00:05):
Just a PSA if you have any information that can help solve a crime go to
Crimestoppers.com to report any information anonymously
This podcast contains material that might not be suitable for all audiences viewer discretion is advised
Hello and welcome back to stone cold murder
(00:26):
Thanks for joining us for season 3 episode 5
How are you today?
I'm doing good. How are you?
I'm doing well, well, well, well, well, well
I have that stupid song stuck in my head and it's not gonna wish one
How long was the bed man?
You started it. I know but that's all I can think of
(00:50):
Especially as soon as Matt counted down it was like
Oh man yeah
Unfortunately these poor guys have been singing
Meow meow meow meow all day so
Yeah, so as you can see we decorated for the holidays
(01:10):
Christmas
Jingle bells and whatnot
And we decorated the house with Christmas decorations
Christmas jingle bells and whatnot
But yeah, it's so cute
It's so cute
Move out of the way a little bit
It's so long
Cute
Adorable
(01:31):
Love it
We hope you love it too
Also, I want to know this in the comments Queen Reefer and I were discussing it before we started recording
The song that we were discussing
Now I can't remember what song it was
Oh, I'll be home for Christmas
(01:52):
I'll be home for Christmas
You can
Blank
On me
What is the word that goes there?
Fill in the blank
And do you know it as different?
Like do you know it as two different versions?
Or is it one thing that you know it as?
I'm confused
Don't look up the lyrics before you comment either
(02:15):
I want you to comment authentically
Yeah
I'll be home for Christmas
You can
Let me know because I have to know
Yeah
It's like a mandala
Mandala
A mandala
Mandala
A mandala
Dumb big ears
A mandala
(02:37):
Now I can't say it
Holy shit
Mandala
Mandala
Mandala
Yeah
Mandala
Mandala
Mandala
Anyways, the mandala effect thing
You know, that thing
Funny little thing
Yup
Yup
Alright, well, as you can see, I am stoned
Maybe you can see
Hopefully here, I don't know
Hopefully you guys are too confused to see
(03:00):
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
Hopefully you guys are too because we're about to get this started
Ready?
Hey, before you go, Dap me up
Do you know how to Dap?
(03:21):
Why were you squishing my hand so much?
She said
That's what you did
Dap me up
That's like my obsession right now is Dapping people up
(03:46):
Oh?
Since when?
I don't know
I just randomly one day was like, yo, yo, Dap me up
And then now I'm just
Just Dapping everybody up
Dapper
Do you do that at work?
No
Oh, I think you should start it at work
My coworkers would be like, what are you doing?
That's why I think you should start it at work
They don't know what RIP is
(04:07):
They're not going to know what Dap me up means
Exactly why you should do it
Yeah, okay, maybe
I'm also obsessed with saying gang gang right now
Gang gang
In an Australian accent
Anyway
In an Australian accent?
Gang gang
Sorry that was really
I can't do it on command
(04:38):
Nori
Oh Nori
Anyway
Okay
Okay, okay, okay
Are you ready?
Yeah, we need to put a counter for every time I say
I forgot the word
We don't know what's happening anymore
(05:00):
I don't think
I smoked
I smoked
I smoked
Same
I had an itch
(05:21):
Yeah, please clip that
I had an itch
Yeah, yeah, sorry
Literally this is why I don't smoke because my intrusive thoughts are just in here
(05:42):
Bite the mic, bite the mic
Do it, do it
And I just can't hold it
Okay, I'm ready
You guys are in for a treat
Maybe you guys should also take this time to go load you a bowl and smoke a dab
Get your snacks together
Yeah?
What?
(06:03):
Together
Are you ready?
Jingle balls
I guess I'm ready
Okay
Try not to jingle it
(06:24):
Immediately jingles
Can you even hear the bell?
Oh, I'm sure you can
Okay
She said okay
Our story starts out on December 23rd, 1974
(06:47):
Three girls, Mary, Lisa, and Julie, were heading to do some last minute Christmas shopping before the holiday
This day already started very exciting for Lisa, who actually went by Renee
That morning, Renee's boyfriend Terry had woken her up early and gave her a promise ring, pledging his love to her forever
(07:09):
So she was super excited already and the two were going to a Christmas party that evening together
And she was really excited to go show off the ring to all of her family and friends that evening
During all of this excitement, she got a phone call from Rachel and Rachel called to ask to see if she wanted to go shopping
(07:30):
But Renee was a little bit hesitant at first because she had already had plans to go to that party that evening
But she eventually gave in on the promise that they would be back by 4 p.m. that day so that she could get ready for the party
Rachel was a little older than Renee, she was 17 in high school and she was already married to her husband Tommy at the time
(07:53):
Dang
Yes
Married?
Yes, 74 different times
I guess that's true, that's probably around the age that most people back then get married at, like 17, 18
Yeah, 17
First kid by like 20
Yeah, and in high school still, so I don't know, that's wild to me
(08:14):
Could you imagine being married in high school?
Good thing I wasn't
Be so for real right now
Be so for real if that was me
She said, good thing I wasn't
I would be like
I'd be like her trauma just now
(08:36):
I have PTSD
Yeah, I just gave that to you, I'm sorry
Ugh
I won't ask again
No, I couldn't, it couldn't be me
No, it couldn't be you, thank god
She was married at the time, her husband's name was Tommy and despite the age gap the girls were still pretty close friends
14 and 17 I guess aren't super big of an age gap but it kind of is at the same time
(09:01):
It's not a big age gap except in that age group
If that makes sense
That is true, yeah
I feel like you're in your 20s and one's like 24 and one's like 27
Yeah
Like that's not big of a difference but 14 to 17, like the maturity level at that age is like a lot different I feel like
(09:22):
Yeah, so that was like an interesting dynamic already but I don't know how good friends they were or if they were just like acquaintances or what
But they decided to go shopping
Renee did ask her boyfriend Terry if he would like to tag along with them but he had already made plans to spend times with a friend who was sick so he could not go shopping with them that day
(09:47):
Terry however had a little sister whose name was Julie, she was nine and she asked if she could go with the older girls to the mall to go shopping
So we had a friend group of very
Different
Age group, yes
Yeah
The girls did say that Julie could come along but only if she asked her mom for permission
Julie's mom said no at first but of course after Julie begged and begged her mom to go
(10:13):
She eventually gave in as long as she was home by six which I already said that they were planning on being home by four
So the six o'clock deadline was not an issue for them
With Julie's mom's consent the girls piled into Rachel's 72 Oldsmobile 98 which is a cool car I looked it up
(10:34):
Insert picture here
Yeah
And they piled in her car a little before noon
The girls set off to a surplus store in Fort Worth to pick up some items that were in layaway that Renee had waiting for her to pick up
They went to the Army Surplus store first which is very Texas
(10:55):
This ain't Texas
Ain't no how old I am
Woo
So from there they headed to Semery South Shopping Center located in Fort Worth, Texas
Now as you can imagine the mall is filled with last minute shoppers, you know people bustling around trying to get those last minute gifts
Very busy in the mall which truly sounds like hell on earth to me personally
(11:20):
Like fuck that shit
That's like also part of the reason why I am a Grinch and I don't really enjoy Christmas too much is just like how busy everything is like at the mall and stores
People act in a fool like
Yeah
Piss me with that
(11:41):
Dude I can't
I can't do it
I hate it
But
But our Christmas decorations are cute
Yeah I guess like for teenagers it's not the worst place to be I suppose
So they were there in this crowded mall and this is where they would spend most of that day
(12:04):
And there were several people who saw the girls that day as they shopped but when the girls missed that 4pm deadline that they had originally promised their families
Their families became worried and eventually they ended up driving down to the shopping center to look for them
So the families arrived at the mall around 6pm that night and began searching for them
(12:26):
And they thought they got lucky when they found Rachel's Oldsmobile in the Sears parking lot
But when they approached the vehicle they knew that something was wrong
It looked like the girls had indeed gone shopping and made it back to the vehicle because they did have bags that were left inside the car from shopping at that mall
But there was absolutely no trace of the girls whatsoever
(12:47):
Did it look like the car was like broken?
It didn't look disturbed or anything
Like they were just sitting there with bags?
Yeah, it looked like they had maybe even placed their bags into the vehicle and shut it because they saw someone that they knew
That's my theory honestly
Is that it was more of instead of being spooked or startled upon
(13:13):
It was like they were getting into the car and they knew someone and they just got distracted
You know what I mean?
But let me finish the rest of the story so you can decide for yourself
The police were immediately contacted and the girls were reported missing
The case was handed over to the missing persons bureau and it was actually treated as a routine case of 3 runaway girls
(13:37):
Routine case?
Of runaway girls
Which I think is crazy because I don't think any girls leaving their stuff that they just bought behind for one
Not a teenage girl
Yeah and especially their car
If they were going to run away you would think they would get in the car and go not by foot
(13:58):
Yeah
Unless like they all... I mean the only thing you could think of is like
Unless they absolutely wanted no trace of them
You know a car is kind of like easy to spot if someone...
And it's weird because if you use the defense that they run away there's no reason for them to go Christmas shopping
Yeah and why would they leave all the stuff that they just bought in the car?
(14:19):
It doesn't make sense
In my opinion there's more than enough evidence to point that this is not a routine runaway case
But I'm not a cop
So...
Red flag
Yeah I won't pretend that I know
But regardless of what I think this was treated as a runaway case and it wasn't investigated as a missing persons case
(14:43):
So therefore they didn't have an umbrella
There wasn't people looking for suspicious activity or three girls or any of this stuff
Did it ever move over to a missing case report?
It does eventually but not until it's too late you know what I mean?
I mean at that point it might be too late but at least like it could maybe like...
(15:08):
I mean you never know it might help the situation if they do put it out
Yeah I think it's something crazy like
Especially with children if you go 24 hours without having any information it's pretty much a done deal
You know what I mean?
Like there are rare cases where someone is kidnapped and then years later they're found
(15:34):
But that's not very often
Yeah like the Ariel Castro motherfucker who kidnapped all those girls like that does happen every once in a while
But like more often it's like...
It's usually a murder investigation rather than the kidnapping
And this smoke break is brought to you by
(15:56):
Miam miam miam miam
Miam miam miam miam
And we're back from our smoke break
So before the smoke break we were talking about the case being turned into a runaway case
Opposed to a missing persons
(16:18):
Alright so the next day Rachel's husband Tommy received a strange letter in the mail
And it was addressed to Thomas A Trishla and said
I know I'm going to catch it but we had to get away
We're going to Houston see you in about a week
The car is in the Sears upper lot
Love Rachel
How do you feel about that?
(16:39):
Sussy
Right?
Someone else wrote that for them to like not make them worried
Right
I know I'm going to catch it
Okay anyways
Was it like a written out letter or a typed out letter?
It was a written letter
(17:00):
So did it look like her handwriting?
Well I'll get into that
The letter was signed by Rachel but no one could say for certain that actually Rachel wrote it
It is noted that Deborah, who's Rachel's sister, was at Tommy's house when he found the letter
(17:20):
Now you may be saying
Okay Kai why is this important to note?
And I want to tell you a little bit of tea that I found out while I was researching this okay?
I'm ready for the tea
Okay apparently Deborah and Tommy had been engaged before him and Rachel were married
(17:42):
Wait which was?
Rachel's sister
Rachel's sister?
Uh huh
What?
They were both engaged to the same man
But she says their relationship was not serious
How can it not be serious if you're engaged?
That's why I said
(18:05):
Oh
Hmm so their relationship wasn't serious and once they broke things off Rachel began to see him
And then soon after the two were married in 1974
Could you?
No dude when I was writing this I was like no no no no no no no no
(18:30):
Either way either no
Can you imagine dating your sister's ex?
No that feels like you can't go out and meet someone on your own so you say well I know him
Like what?
I could never
Dude
So Rachel moved out of the family home the Arnold family home and then ended up living with Tommy because they were married obviously
(18:58):
And Deborah had been arguing with her then boyfriend at the same time that Tommy and Rachel got married
And about the same time that they disappeared and she was actually temporarily living with Rachel and Tommy in December of 1974
So it was Rachel, Deborah and Tommy all in the same house living together
(19:24):
Hmm which I guess your sisters of course you're gonna let your sister stay with you but
Yeah seems a little weird
Yeah both Deborah and Tommy said that their romantic relationship was completely over by that time and it was not uncomfortable having all three of them living in the same home
So
(19:45):
To each their own I suppose
Rachel had actually asked Deborah to come shopping with them December 23rd but Deborah decided to stay home and stay in bed that day instead
Now I want you to process all that
And I know that some of this shit happens but it's kind of strange to me
(20:06):
Like I know that these scenarios happen but it just seems strange
Well okay so you mentioned earlier about Deborah was there at the time Tommy found the letter but wouldn't that make sense if she was living with them
It doesn't make sense
So that one's not too crazy
No you're suppose not
Unless I'm missing something
(20:29):
No it's not inherently strange but it can be if you're like implicated in things
You know what I mean
Which is an easy way out I guess
Yeah
So over the years handwriting experts including ones in the FBI have analyzed the letter several times and each analyst comes back with it being inconclusive as to being Rachel's handwriting so nobody can really tell
(20:58):
But the families felt like the letter was not from Rachel or if it was that it had been written under distress
And for one the letter itself was written to Thomas A Trishla but everybody that knew him called him Tommy including his wife
Yeah so why switch it up now
So yeah so nobody especially Rachel would have called him Thomas especially the full name
(21:22):
She wouldn't have wrote Thomas A Trishla or Trickla or whatever
And is that a thing you have to do when you hand write mail of like put their full name
It's formal to do so
Yeah
It is formal but in a letter like that why
You know
I didn't know if I had to I mean I just didn't know if I had to like on the front
(21:43):
Yeah
In case there was like a send back
Yeah
Yeah
The family also felt like the Rachel that was initially written on the letter was actually misspelled originally and that it was actually like traced over
And it appeared that the final I and her name was was actually an E and was traced over to make a tall I instead
(22:07):
Weird
Yeah
So I mean the handwriting of like her signature would make sense if someone like wrote it out
But what about the rest of the letter
Like because I feel like if I got a letter from you
(22:28):
Yeah
I could like definitely determine like this is kind of handwriting
Right
Or like vice versa with anybody else
Yeah
That I'm close with
Yeah
It could be like that's her handwriting
Yeah
And let's say you just found like a whole bunch of writings from her and like just traced it
Which could happen
Especially if it was someone close to you
True
(22:49):
Or that new year handwriting
Or new year handwriting in anyway
Like that can happen but
And maybe that's why it's like inconclusive
Because it's like
Because it couldn't really
Kind of close enough but not like completely
Yeah
And I think we talked about it in a couple episodes back about the handwriting thing how it's or no we were talking about someone's walk
(23:12):
And I brought out how handwriting is kind of the same thing like it's a shot in the dark if you can actually compare it to someone's handwriting
Because people can copy it so you can never really be for certain
Yeah but I don't know maybe I'm just like bad at handwriting but I feel like I wouldn't be able to copy it that well without something to trace
(23:35):
Yeah true some people can though
That's crazy yeah
Right
Anyway
Another little note to think about is that the letter was written on a sheet of paper that was actually wider than the envelope
So it had to be folded a bunch of different times to fit in there
And that it had been started in pen and finished in pencil
(23:57):
Oh
So
Just two strange things
Where
Tommy had picked it up from the mailbox the morning of December 24th and believes that the letter was sealed but he couldn't really remember if it was or not
He remembers that it was the only thing in the mailbox that day and that the stamp had been cancelled that morning
So that means it was stamped over so you can't use it again meaning that it was delivered that morning
(24:21):
Despite their belief that the letter was not from Rachel all three families just kind of waited around very anxiously to just see if any of them would show up after a week
You know since they said they were only going to be gone for a week
But the week came and gone without any sign from any of the girls
And the family became more and more weary and concerned obviously as the girls didn't return for their safety you know
(24:46):
Weeks turned into months with no signs of the girls at all
Which sucks
Early on in the case a store clerk came forth stating that an elderly customer had told her that she had seen three girls being forced into a yellow pickup truck
But unfortunately this customer was never able to be tracked down so that they could speak to her further so that went nowhere
(25:11):
What?
What's wrong?
Why in that moment?
Okay
I know
Why in that moment would you just like be like brush it off?
Brush it off? Why wouldn't you be like um
(25:34):
Someone's forcefully making these three very young girls get into a truck against their will
Why wouldn't you do something about it? And as a store clerk why also wouldn't you like ask questions?
Bystander effect
That happens too much
That's that's why I laugh when people are like well nowadays people will just record on their phone and then it or not
(26:01):
No not nowadays this has always happened
We just didn't have phones to record it with first before people would just see something happen and they'd say
And walk away that happens all the time
They say oh well someone else will take care of it
Someone else will call the cops someone else will stop them
(26:23):
Someone else will pick up that dog that's running out in the middle of the street
But guess what?
Most people don't and nowadays we have cell phones so they won't do anything except keep it for later laugh ha ha's
Or views
Or views
That's so like okay
(26:46):
Yeah it's an overwhelming phenomenon that happens with people
I could see like a dog or an accident you know because like whatever right like I personally wouldn't
But I could see that but for someone like to visibly like getting forcefully put into a car
(27:10):
Yeah people do it screams or gunshots even
Crazy
Yeah it's fucking crazy
And maybe this was her being like well I told this store clerk
To her defense she was an old lady so maybe she couldn't do much but
(27:32):
I know but like even if you can't do much like at least just giving that information right then and there
Because then people could start looking for a yellow pick up
Exactly
Ugh
Anyway sorry my mind when you said that
I know it's crazy
What?
Another witness claims that he saw the girl sitting in a security patrol vehicle but this tip also went nowhere
(27:57):
Two people reporting that they saw the girls getting into a vehicle though so
But it's weird one was like a yellow pick up and one was a patrol car
Yeah
Which maybe she mistake you know often witnesses are very unreliable
Especially color make of vehicles and things like that it's often wrong
Yeah
(28:18):
You know so maybe she saw flashing lights from a security patrol vehicle that made it look yellow
You know you never know or maybe she was just flustered in the moment and had no fucking idea because
Well that happens quite often
That would almost like I mean they couldn't obviously track her down to talk to her about it
(28:40):
But maybe she just like vaguely told the store clerk like it was yellow because of the lights
And he said
That would make sense of why they maybe were forcefully put into the pickup car like if they were getting arrested of some kind
That would make sense but regardless all of these tips that were coming forward were taking them to no place
(29:06):
No avail no finding these girls no traces of them whatsoever
I obviously like I know it ended up leading them nowhere but did like when you were doing your research didn't talk about like the police going to the mall and like talking to their security and didn't give any of that
No because the police themselves treated this as a runaway case
(29:30):
The families were unfortunately the ones having to do all a lot of the investigation themselves which that's unfortunate
Yeah you know like you would think in like any other case if this was a witness saying like I saw them getting to a patrol vehicle security a security patrol vehicle you would go to like that mall that they were at and ask security
(29:55):
It could have been that easy
Could have but
Or maybe they did and they didn't have any record of it back then
I have a part that you will you'll be like oh okay you want to get to it they just didn't treat it well okay no they did it copy they decided not to do it in the spring of 1975 the families were rightfully frustrated by the police lack of investigation completely
(30:26):
Kind of just ignoring the case and deciding that they weren't going to look into it so they made the decision to hire a private investigator named john swim in 1976 fragments of human bones were found in Alvin but the bones came back in conclusive six years later bigger pieces of bone fragments
(30:50):
Including a lower leg bone were found in the same location which ended up launching a massive search in the area but the remains turned out to be those of three girls but not the three girls who had disappeared from Fort Worth and after this discovery there was no more significant leads that came forth in this case and it started to turn very fucking cold
(31:15):
Yeah three different girls three other girls for the fucking chances of that. Was there any other like reports of like other girls going missing. Now it's a whole different other case with those girls. Okay. So they like figured out who they actually were like the identity of those girls. Yeah.
Huh. But they were not the girls that they were looking for in this case and they don't think it correlates at all to the other case.
(31:45):
No. Interesting. Yeah. Right. Well, at least like those girls got some justice. Yeah.
But it's a weird coinkydink for sure. Yeah. So john who is that private investigator that the families had hired received an anonymous tip that the girls remains could be found near Port Lavaca 100 volunteers searched the boggy area but came up with nothing.
(32:10):
Surprise surprise. So nothing happened there. And then a few years later john actually committed suicide in 1979 by drug overdose. And this is where it gets really fucking weird because Renee's mother tried to collect the pictures of her daughter from her from his records that she had given to him.
And she learned that all of his records had been burned in what was apparently his very last request. What?
(32:40):
Wait. Yeah. He burned all of his fucking records.
Weird. Right. Do you think he like found who it was. And then that person in turn. I have no idea. He's just suicide. I have no idea. I just know it's fucking weird. You can go two ways with this and that's really weird.
(33:05):
Either a someone staged it to make him look like it like he knew he got him right. The investigator found the guy or a girl or whoever did this. And then they staged it or he did.
(33:26):
Yeah. He either found something he didn't want to know. He couldn't live with it or had something to do with it or it had nothing to do with this investigation at all. But the fact that he had all of his records burned especially when you have photos of someone's children.
Was it just that one specific case that all of his cases. Oh, that makes a little different. Okay. Still. I thought it was just that specific case but still yeah. It's weird. That is weird. Yeah.
(33:55):
I'm not saying he's hiding anything but like why. You know what I mean. It's why it's weird. That is definitely weird. Yeah. And that's where we're going to take our second smoke break.
This smoke break is brought to you by.
(34:19):
And we're back from our smoke break in 1979 a psychic called from Hawaii and said that the girls remains could be found in an oil well. So the police focused on an area called Rising Star that was just outside of al-Balin.
But of course nothing was found of any kind of significance or anything even remotely related to this case. Nothing. Yeah. I mean that's like.
(34:46):
Obviously a psychic you know most of us would say well that's nothing. But it does happen in a lot of these cases where there's absolutely nothing to go on and they're kind of finally like we'll fucking try it.
Might as well. I mean it's already a no right. Right. You might as well try it. Might as well. If they're right then maybe they also have something to do with it or they are psychic.
(35:11):
You know sometimes when they're desperate they do go down that route. So unfortunately she had nothing or they had nothing of significance to offer them.
Rusty was only 11 years old on the day his sister disappeared but he has dedicated his entire life towards solving this case.
In 1995 Rusty Arnold Rachel's younger brother made contact with a new private investigator Dan Jones. Jones was actually familiar with this case and he put up twenty five thousand dollar reward out of his own pocket for information leading to an arrest or conviction of the persons involved in the disappearance.
(35:51):
Yeah which is awesome. Like that's really fucking cool. You don't see that a lot. Yeah. He was never actually officially hired by the family. He did everything completely free pro bono for the family just to try and get this case solved.
But him and Rusty continued to investigate this case out of their own personal interest basically into getting it solved. In 2000 Deborah who is the sister spoke with Fort Worth Star Telegram and discussed how she knew Rusty blamed her for Rachel's disappearance.
(36:26):
Which is an interesting thing to say to just random people. A few days later a different letter was published by Rusty and some of the parents of the other missing girls. This letter read Dear Deborah we read your statement in the Fort Worth Star Telegram on January 9th 2000.
You indicated you had nothing to hide. If your statement is true we beg and plead with you to fully cooperate with the Fort Worth Police Department and the FBI. Please complete the polygraph test and answer all the questions.
(37:04):
Deborah please keep in mind you also have a sister missing respectfully. Riann Mosley Rusty Arnold Judy Wilson and Richard Wilson. Interesting. So that kind of just goes back to the theory.
The only signatures that were missing was from Rusty and Rachel and Deborah's mother Fran. She believed that Dan Jones poisoned Rusty's mind and destroyed what remained of her family by turning Rusty and Deborah against each other.
(37:35):
So Fran and Rusty did not speak for years because of this.
Which is crazy.
I'm not saying that Deborah had anything to do with it.
I'm just saying if my little sister went missing, you best believe I would do everything in my power to cooperate with making sure things move forward. It seems like that is not the case.
(38:09):
She's writing this kind of letter to someone who's cooperating.
And it seems like very just like targeted at her.
Yeah.
Of like they don't believe she's telling the truth. They don't believe it at all whatsoever.
And then it like almost goes back to the theory too of when we were talking at the beginning of you saying it seemed like the girls knew.
(38:35):
Who knew who it was. Yeah.
So in 2009, Deborah actually posted on this web sleuth forum regarding this case, she revealed that she had actually undergone multiple polygraph tests which showed that she had nothing to do with it which polygraph tests.
(38:57):
I don't know. Pish posh. I don't really think we can go off that but yeah she stated that she believes Rusty's confusion and paranoia stems from years of substance abuse, which I saw nothing in my research that he had anything to do with any drugs or alcohol or anything but
(39:19):
And like it wasn't just Rusty either. It was a lot of the other parents. Right. So if that was the case, that doesn't even check out or make sense of like why the other parents were saying that as well.
So obviously there's something that a couple different people are saying that they're like, something doesn't really add up here. Yeah, there's a lot of really very different family dynamics going on here that are just
(39:48):
interesting. Yeah.
And I'm curious and I'm sure everybody else is like what led him to this conclusion and the first place you know.
And maybe it was kind of like where we were where it was just like, yeah, I mean, seems a little strange. Maybe she's a little jealous. Or maybe there was more to it.
(40:11):
Yeah.
But aren't those like the types of like, it's so easy sitting here now after the fact but aren't those like the questions like you would think people would ask. Yeah, like, when they're giving out the statement well what makes you think that.
Right. Do you have any like evidence or anything like out of the ordinary that has to be something I want to, I want to know if her and Tommy got together after. Yeah, that's what I was like, I couldn't find anything like I couldn't find it.
(40:40):
I was really curious about that. That's what I was gonna ask to like if their relationship changed after the fact, or she was still living with them right. That would be like a huge piece.
Maybe that was one of the things could be and maybe they're just hiding it, keeping it close to the chest you know what I mean. Yeah. In 2001, the case was reopened and assigned to a homicide detective named Tom Botchner or Bochner.
(41:09):
Finally, this case was actually picked up as a missing persons case because it had not been this whole time.
2001.
1974 is when this happened.
That's insane runaways.
For that long is crazy.
(41:31):
Unfortunately, no significant leads had ever come from reopening the investigation. Botchner made a statement saying that he believes that the girls left with someone that they had trusted.
Additionally, he believes that more than one individual was involved with the abduction. The police did not speculate on whether they thought the girls were alive or dead, but Botchner revealed that the that detectives had written over 150 letters to different coordinators in five different states to inquire about any unidentified female remains found since 1974, just to see if they could connect any of those bodies to
(42:13):
the girls. He also claimed that the fourth Fort Worth detectives had narrowed the number of suspects to just under five, which I think is pretty significant.
Does it say who they are?
No, it does not.
I was ready for the tea.
I know they're not going to give that tea until they know for sure. Unfortunately, Bill Hutchins is a retired Fort Worth office police officer who was working security at Sears on the day that the girls disappeared.
(42:44):
And according to him, he had seen the girls in a pickup truck of a young security guard. They were laughing and they did appear to be quite at ease with this security guard, which is interesting because that is the third tip that they got about those girls being in a pickup truck, two of which were the security guard.
(43:10):
Interesting to me. Hutchins phoned the tip in when he heard about the girls disappearance, but he claimed that the police never reached out to him for further information.
And he assumed that the case must have been solved. And he was obviously very, very, very, very shocked when the police did reach out to him in 2001 to follow up with his fucking tip.
(43:34):
Wow. Yeah, no, that's absolutely insane.
2001. So when you said earlier about the police following up on the security guard and I was like, well, yeah, they kind of did. That's what I meant.
But after it was to a different department, it took a hands of a different department, a whole different squad to do it. That's insane. Even okay, let's like this should just be like protocol.
(44:02):
It should just be basic protocol. Even if you think it is a runaway case. Yeah, you should still have to follow these protocols. Yeah. Same with like doing an autopsy. You always should do an autopsy on a body like things like that.
Day one things that you shouldn't be missing. But some people just want to solve these cases or chalk it up to whatever the fuck. And then we end up with things like this. Apparently, the security guard was interviewed and identified, but he denied seeing the girls that day.
(44:38):
And that just denies it. And they're like, oh, OK, nothing. We had three witnesses say, you know, nothing happened. Sick. Yeah. As of 2001, Dan and Rusty believe that only Rachel was alive, which I thought was interesting.
And they believe that she visits Fort Worth area every Christmas. And this is based on like credible witnesses who apparently saw Rachel in 1998 around Christmas time. I think that's really weird that both Dan and Rusty think that that is so weird, isn't it?
(45:14):
Wait, but if that was I know. Well, we won't know why Dan or Rusty think this because they're completely unwilling to discuss the theory. Oh, beyond just stating that someone close to them and someone that was close to the girls was involved with the disappearance.
(45:38):
That's all they'll say. Wait, say that again. They said that they're not willing to discuss it other beyond that someone close to them and someone that was close to the girls was involved with their disappearing.
Someone that was close to them was involved and then it's correct.
(45:59):
Correct. Wait, correct. Because no, then that makes like I'm not going to say this is for sure. But this makes so much sense. I know. And it's sad. Like, I don't want it to.
And we don't know that it is. But like.
You jealous bitch.
(46:20):
If that's what happened.
I'm jealous ass bitch. That's all I can say. It is crazy that they say only Rachel is alive. I know. Like how. So what if the like.
I know this is frustrating as fuck.
(46:41):
It's so frustrating because I feel like it's like right there. So over the years, Rusty's been doing quite a bit of research, trying to trace down any type of information he can find about this case.
His search did lead him to Ben Brook Lake, which is eight miles from the mall, which is nearby a quote unquote person of interest house. Rusty set his sight on three cars that were in the bottom of that lake.
(47:11):
He felt that maybe those cars could have clues in them that would maybe help the case. So he privately funded a diving team on September 22nd of 2018. Oh, wow. To go in there and pull the cars out.
The first car that was pulled to the surface was on that day. And then a few weeks later, on October 13th, the second car was pulled up and neither of these cars had any type of information that he was looking for or that could help the case.
(47:43):
You said there was only two or there was three cars. There's three in total, but those. But they only pulled up two.
Due to flooding, the diving team was not able to pull the third car up until September 16th of 2019. So a whole year later, when they dove to the bottom of the lake, they found that the car was deteriorating pretty bad and that even the slightest touch made it fall apart.
(48:10):
Oh, wow. So this car was unfortunately deemed too dangerous to pull out of the lake. So instead of pull the car out, the team decided to take the search down to the bottom of the lake.
And on July 17th of 2020, so another year later, Rusty and a member of his team dove to the bottom of Ben Brook Lake and searched that car that was on the bottom. Again, no evidence was found, which of course was very disappointing for Rusty and the team.
(48:41):
But he did admit that there was little to no chance that these cars even had any connection to his sister's disappearance. But he wanted to try regardless.
I mean, might as well try. Yeah. Especially if you have like nothing. He said that him and his team did identify other lakes of interest and hope that maybe they could do the same thing with those lakes eventually and repeat the process.
(49:08):
So is that like a theory of like they think the car? I think so. Well, I wonder where this lake was so close to that person of interest house. I wonder if they thought maybe they just dumped a car in the lake or whatever.
Clearly, there's something there that makes him think that. Yeah, it would be in the water or maybe that was a tip from some. I don't know. It doesn't say a lot of reasoning as to why, but I would assume that he has reason.
(49:42):
Yeah. And if not, maybe he's just pulling at any card he can think of, you know, which is a dedicated brother. Unfortunately, other than that, this case of the Fort Worth trio remains unsolved to this day.
What are your thoughts on this one?
I think now this is just my theory, but I think like I've been piecing it together a little bit throughout the episode. I've been like saying some stuff, but I think that it was Deborah and Tommy.
(50:18):
I think they at the very least have more information that they're not giving. And even if it wasn't them directly because there was another security guard involved with it a little bit. Maybe they knew someone that did do something or paid someone to do something.
You never know. It's crazy that they would go for three different girls, though, that like if we're using that theory, what did the other girls have to do with it? Just being innocent bystanders, wrong place, wrong time.
(50:50):
Maybe innocent bystanders or.
I don't know. Yeah, because that's like.
I guess that would be the easiest way to be like, oh, they ran away. It's like all three of them, but like that's a fucking lot.
And maybe with all three of them, it's like easier to say maybe it wasn't direct attack to just Rachel. Yeah, right.
(51:15):
But then it brings me to the theory that like if she is so alive, then why just her? Why just her too? Yeah, because that would be really weird if she's alive and this was all to get her to go away.
Like.
Then why is she still here? Or it's like completely just coincidence that Deborah was a little odd and someone just got away with this.
(51:42):
Which that also could be the case. Yeah, because I mean, although Deborah's actions were a little weird and it's like a little weird having that history between Tommy and Deborah.
Like there wasn't anything like two out there in your face where it's like, yeah, it was definitely other than the fact that a couple of things were weird and then rusty and a couple of the parents thought it was also something to do with Deborah.
(52:07):
Yeah. And it seems like they had said that they had five. They narrowed it down to five different five people of interest. Five.
So like, I feel like they're close to solving it.
Yeah, you know what I mean? I think they know they just need solid evidence. Yeah, you know, and maybe with this, maybe they have like a theory and maybe that's why they're looking at the lakes.
(52:34):
Like. Which is like is one of those things that we won't know until we know.
Well, it sounds like this is pretty recent of like some of this stuff going on. So hopefully, like they start to do more investigating with like the lakes and stuff of like looking at different vehicles and maybe some stuff will come to the surface, because it seems like they're still like willing to investigate it some.
(53:00):
Yeah, which is awesome. Finally took them long enough to be willing to. Yeah, but that's crazy. And the fact that it took them that long to switch it over from a runaway case to a missing person case is absolutely insane.
It's crazy. It's really fucking crazy. I hate that so much.
(53:27):
Well, any other theories, thoughts?
That's what I got. Me too. This is a fucking conundrum of a case.
But as always, if you guys have theories, please, please, please, please let us know in the comments.
And if not, please let us know about at least the Mandela effect thing. Oh yeah, the song.
(53:54):
Yeah, let us know because it's bothering me.
And until next time, stay high, stay safe. And thank you for watching.
Bye.
Hey guys, let us know what you think down below in the comments but as always be respectful and kind as these are serious cases that have yet to be solved. If you enjoyed the show, please like subscribe and hit the notification bell so you can know when we drop our next episode.
(54:23):
You fucking bitch. I fucking hate you.
Happy 420. I'm Kai and I'm Queen reefer. You're watching stone cold murder
(00:05):
Just a PSA if you have any information that can help solve a crime go to
Crimestoppers.com to report any information anonymously
This podcast contains material that might not be suitable for all audiences viewer discretion is advised
Hello and welcome back to stone cold murder
(00:26):
Thanks for joining us for season 3 episode 5
How are you today?
I'm doing good. How are you?
I'm doing well, well, well, well, well, well
I have that stupid song stuck in my head and it's not gonna wish one
How long was the bed man?
You started it. I know but that's all I can think of
(00:50):
Especially as soon as Matt counted down it was like
Oh man yeah
Unfortunately these poor guys have been singing
Meow meow meow meow all day so
Yeah, so as you can see we decorated for the holidays
(01:10):
Christmas
Jingle bells and whatnot
And we decorated the house with Christmas decorations
Christmas jingle bells and whatnot
But yeah, it's so cute
It's so cute
Move out of the way a little bit
It's so long
Cute
Adorable
(01:31):
Love it
We hope you love it too
Also, I want to know this in the comments Queen Reefer and I were discussing it before we started recording
The song that we were discussing
Now I can't remember what song it was
Oh, I'll be home for Christmas
(01:52):
I'll be home for Christmas
You can
Blank
On me
What is the word that goes there?
Fill in the blank
And do you know it as different?
Like do you know it as two different versions?
Or is it one thing that you know it as?
I'm confused
Don't look up the lyrics before you comment either
(02:15):
I want you to comment authentically
Yeah
I'll be home for Christmas
You can
Let me know because I have to know
Yeah
It's like a mandala
Mandala
A mandala
Mandala
A mandala
Dumb big ears
A mandala
(02:37):
Now I can't say it
Holy shit
Mandala
Mandala
Mandala
Yeah
Mandala
Mandala
Mandala
Anyways, the mandala effect thing
You know, that thing
Funny little thing
Yup
Yup
Alright, well, as you can see, I am stoned
Maybe you can see
Hopefully here, I don't know
Hopefully you guys are too confused to see
(03:00):
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
I'm not sure
Hopefully you guys are too because we're about to get this started
Ready?
Hey, before you go, Dap me up
Do you know how to Dap?
(03:21):
Why were you squishing my hand so much?
She said
That's what you did
Dap me up
That's like my obsession right now is Dapping people up
(03:46):
Oh?
Since when?
I don't know
I just randomly one day was like, yo, yo, Dap me up
And then now I'm just
Just Dapping everybody up
Dapper
Do you do that at work?
No
Oh, I think you should start it at work
My coworkers would be like, what are you doing?
That's why I think you should start it at work
They don't know what RIP is
(04:07):
They're not going to know what Dap me up means
Exactly why you should do it
Yeah, okay, maybe
I'm also obsessed with saying gang gang right now
Gang gang
In an Australian accent
Anyway
In an Australian accent?
Gang gang
Sorry that was really
I can't do it on command
(04:38):
Nori
Oh Nori
Anyway
Okay
Okay, okay, okay
Are you ready?
Yeah, we need to put a counter for every time I say
I forgot the word
We don't know what's happening anymore
(05:00):
I don't think
I smoked
I smoked
I smoked
Same
I had an itch
(05:21):
Yeah, please clip that
I had an itch
Yeah, yeah, sorry
Literally this is why I don't smoke because my intrusive thoughts are just in here
(05:42):
Bite the mic, bite the mic
Do it, do it
And I just can't hold it
Okay, I'm ready
You guys are in for a treat
Maybe you guys should also take this time to go load you a bowl and smoke a dab
Get your snacks together
Yeah?
What?
(06:03):
Together
Are you ready?
Jingle balls
I guess I'm ready
Okay
Try not to jingle it
(06:24):
Immediately jingles
Can you even hear the bell?
Oh, I'm sure you can
Okay
She said okay
Our story starts out on December 23rd, 1974
(06:47):
Three girls, Mary, Lisa, and Julie, were heading to do some last minute Christmas shopping before the holiday
This day already started very exciting for Lisa, who actually went by Renee
That morning, Renee's boyfriend Terry had woken her up early and gave her a promise ring, pledging his love to her forever
(07:09):
So she was super excited already and the two were going to a Christmas party that evening together
And she was really excited to go show off the ring to all of her family and friends that evening
During all of this excitement, she got a phone call from Rachel and Rachel called to ask to see if she wanted to go shopping
(07:30):
But Renee was a little bit hesitant at first because she had already had plans to go to that party that evening
But she eventually gave in on the promise that they would be back by 4 p.m. that day so that she could get ready for the party
Rachel was a little older than Renee, she was 17 in high school and she was already married to her husband Tommy at the time
(07:53):
Dang
Yes
Married?
Yes, 74 different times
I guess that's true, that's probably around the age that most people back then get married at, like 17, 18
Yeah, 17
First kid by like 20
Yeah, and in high school still, so I don't know, that's wild to me
(08:14):
Could you imagine being married in high school?
Good thing I wasn't
Be so for real right now
Be so for real if that was me
She said, good thing I wasn't
I would be like
I'd be like her trauma just now
(08:36):
I have PTSD
Yeah, I just gave that to you, I'm sorry
Ugh
I won't ask again
No, I couldn't, it couldn't be me
No, it couldn't be you, thank god
She was married at the time, her husband's name was Tommy and despite the age gap the girls were still pretty close friends
14 and 17 I guess aren't super big of an age gap but it kind of is at the same time
(09:01):
It's not a big age gap except in that age group
If that makes sense
That is true, yeah
I feel like you're in your 20s and one's like 24 and one's like 27
Yeah
Like that's not big of a difference but 14 to 17, like the maturity level at that age is like a lot different I feel like
(09:22):
Yeah, so that was like an interesting dynamic already but I don't know how good friends they were or if they were just like acquaintances or what
But they decided to go shopping
Renee did ask her boyfriend Terry if he would like to tag along with them but he had already made plans to spend times with a friend who was sick so he could not go shopping with them that day
(09:47):
Terry however had a little sister whose name was Julie, she was nine and she asked if she could go with the older girls to the mall to go shopping
So we had a friend group of very
Different
Age group, yes
Yeah
The girls did say that Julie could come along but only if she asked her mom for permission
Julie's mom said no at first but of course after Julie begged and begged her mom to go
(10:13):
She eventually gave in as long as she was home by six which I already said that they were planning on being home by four
So the six o'clock deadline was not an issue for them
With Julie's mom's consent the girls piled into Rachel's 72 Oldsmobile 98 which is a cool car I looked it up
(10:34):
Insert picture here
Yeah
And they piled in her car a little before noon
The girls set off to a surplus store in Fort Worth to pick up some items that were in layaway that Renee had waiting for her to pick up
They went to the Army Surplus store first which is very Texas
(10:55):
This ain't Texas
Ain't no how old I am
Woo
So from there they headed to Semery South Shopping Center located in Fort Worth, Texas
Now as you can imagine the mall is filled with last minute shoppers, you know people bustling around trying to get those last minute gifts
Very busy in the mall which truly sounds like hell on earth to me personally
(11:20):
Like fuck that shit
That's like also part of the reason why I am a Grinch and I don't really enjoy Christmas too much is just like how busy everything is like at the mall and stores
People act in a fool like
Yeah
Piss me with that
(11:41):
Dude I can't
I can't do it
I hate it
But
But our Christmas decorations are cute
Yeah I guess like for teenagers it's not the worst place to be I suppose
So they were there in this crowded mall and this is where they would spend most of that day
(12:04):
And there were several people who saw the girls that day as they shopped but when the girls missed that 4pm deadline that they had originally promised their families
Their families became worried and eventually they ended up driving down to the shopping center to look for them
So the families arrived at the mall around 6pm that night and began searching for them
(12:26):
And they thought they got lucky when they found Rachel's Oldsmobile in the Sears parking lot
But when they approached the vehicle they knew that something was wrong
It looked like the girls had indeed gone shopping and made it back to the vehicle because they did have bags that were left inside the car from shopping at that mall
But there was absolutely no trace of the girls whatsoever
(12:47):
Did it look like the car was like broken?
It didn't look disturbed or anything
Like they were just sitting there with bags?
Yeah, it looked like they had maybe even placed their bags into the vehicle and shut it because they saw someone that they knew
That's my theory honestly
Is that it was more of instead of being spooked or startled upon
(13:13):
It was like they were getting into the car and they knew someone and they just got distracted
You know what I mean?
But let me finish the rest of the story so you can decide for yourself
The police were immediately contacted and the girls were reported missing
The case was handed over to the missing persons bureau and it was actually treated as a routine case of 3 runaway girls
(13:37):
Routine case?
Of runaway girls
Which I think is crazy because I don't think any girls leaving their stuff that they just bought behind for one
Not a teenage girl
Yeah and especially their car
If they were going to run away you would think they would get in the car and go not by foot
(13:58):
Yeah
Unless like they all... I mean the only thing you could think of is like
Unless they absolutely wanted no trace of them
You know a car is kind of like easy to spot if someone...
And it's weird because if you use the defense that they run away there's no reason for them to go Christmas shopping
Yeah and why would they leave all the stuff that they just bought in the car?
(14:19):
It doesn't make sense
In my opinion there's more than enough evidence to point that this is not a routine runaway case
But I'm not a cop
So...
Red flag
Yeah I won't pretend that I know
But regardless of what I think this was treated as a runaway case and it wasn't investigated as a missing persons case
(14:43):
So therefore they didn't have an umbrella
There wasn't people looking for suspicious activity or three girls or any of this stuff
Did it ever move over to a missing case report?
It does eventually but not until it's too late you know what I mean?
I mean at that point it might be too late but at least like it could maybe like...
(15:08):
I mean you never know it might help the situation if they do put it out
Yeah I think it's something crazy like
Especially with children if you go 24 hours without having any information it's pretty much a done deal
You know what I mean?
Like there are rare cases where someone is kidnapped and then years later they're found
(15:34):
But that's not very often
Yeah like the Ariel Castro motherfucker who kidnapped all those girls like that does happen every once in a while
But like more often it's like...
It's usually a murder investigation rather than the kidnapping
And this smoke break is brought to you by
(15:56):
Miam miam miam miam
Miam miam miam miam
And we're back from our smoke break
So before the smoke break we were talking about the case being turned into a runaway case
Opposed to a missing persons
(16:18):
Alright so the next day Rachel's husband Tommy received a strange letter in the mail
And it was addressed to Thomas A Trishla and said
I know I'm going to catch it but we had to get away
We're going to Houston see you in about a week
The car is in the Sears upper lot
Love Rachel
How do you feel about that?
(16:39):
Sussy
Right?
Someone else wrote that for them to like not make them worried
Right
I know I'm going to catch it
Okay anyways
Was it like a written out letter or a typed out letter?
It was a written letter
(17:00):
So did it look like her handwriting?
Well I'll get into that
The letter was signed by Rachel but no one could say for certain that actually Rachel wrote it
It is noted that Deborah, who's Rachel's sister, was at Tommy's house when he found the letter
(17:20):
Now you may be saying
Okay Kai why is this important to note?
And I want to tell you a little bit of tea that I found out while I was researching this okay?
I'm ready for the tea
Okay apparently Deborah and Tommy had been engaged before him and Rachel were married
(17:42):
Wait which was?
Rachel's sister
Rachel's sister?
Uh huh
What?
They were both engaged to the same man
But she says their relationship was not serious
How can it not be serious if you're engaged?
That's why I said
(18:05):
Oh
Hmm so their relationship wasn't serious and once they broke things off Rachel began to see him
And then soon after the two were married in 1974
Could you?
No dude when I was writing this I was like no no no no no no no no
(18:30):
Either way either no
Can you imagine dating your sister's ex?
No that feels like you can't go out and meet someone on your own so you say well I know him
Like what?
I could never
Dude
So Rachel moved out of the family home the Arnold family home and then ended up living with Tommy because they were married obviously
(18:58):
And Deborah had been arguing with her then boyfriend at the same time that Tommy and Rachel got married
And about the same time that they disappeared and she was actually temporarily living with Rachel and Tommy in December of 1974
So it was Rachel, Deborah and Tommy all in the same house living together
(19:24):
Hmm which I guess your sisters of course you're gonna let your sister stay with you but
Yeah seems a little weird
Yeah both Deborah and Tommy said that their romantic relationship was completely over by that time and it was not uncomfortable having all three of them living in the same home
So
(19:45):
To each their own I suppose
Rachel had actually asked Deborah to come shopping with them December 23rd but Deborah decided to stay home and stay in bed that day instead
Now I want you to process all that
And I know that some of this shit happens but it's kind of strange to me
(20:06):
Like I know that these scenarios happen but it just seems strange
Well okay so you mentioned earlier about Deborah was there at the time Tommy found the letter but wouldn't that make sense if she was living with them
It doesn't make sense
So that one's not too crazy
No you're suppose not
Unless I'm missing something
(20:29):
No it's not inherently strange but it can be if you're like implicated in things
You know what I mean
Which is an easy way out I guess
Yeah
So over the years handwriting experts including ones in the FBI have analyzed the letter several times and each analyst comes back with it being inconclusive as to being Rachel's handwriting so nobody can really tell
(20:58):
But the families felt like the letter was not from Rachel or if it was that it had been written under distress
And for one the letter itself was written to Thomas A Trishla but everybody that knew him called him Tommy including his wife
Yeah so why switch it up now
So yeah so nobody especially Rachel would have called him Thomas especially the full name
(21:22):
She wouldn't have wrote Thomas A Trishla or Trickla or whatever
And is that a thing you have to do when you hand write mail of like put their full name
It's formal to do so
Yeah
It is formal but in a letter like that why
You know
I didn't know if I had to I mean I just didn't know if I had to like on the front
(21:43):
Yeah
In case there was like a send back
Yeah
Yeah
The family also felt like the Rachel that was initially written on the letter was actually misspelled originally and that it was actually like traced over
And it appeared that the final I and her name was was actually an E and was traced over to make a tall I instead
(22:07):
Weird
Yeah
So I mean the handwriting of like her signature would make sense if someone like wrote it out
But what about the rest of the letter
Like because I feel like if I got a letter from you
(22:28):
Yeah
I could like definitely determine like this is kind of handwriting
Right
Or like vice versa with anybody else
Yeah
That I'm close with
Yeah
It could be like that's her handwriting
Yeah
And let's say you just found like a whole bunch of writings from her and like just traced it
Which could happen
Especially if it was someone close to you
True
(22:49):
Or that new year handwriting
Or new year handwriting in anyway
Like that can happen but
And maybe that's why it's like inconclusive
Because it's like
Because it couldn't really
Kind of close enough but not like completely
Yeah
And I think we talked about it in a couple episodes back about the handwriting thing how it's or no we were talking about someone's walk
(23:12):
And I brought out how handwriting is kind of the same thing like it's a shot in the dark if you can actually compare it to someone's handwriting
Because people can copy it so you can never really be for certain
Yeah but I don't know maybe I'm just like bad at handwriting but I feel like I wouldn't be able to copy it that well without something to trace
(23:35):
Yeah true some people can though
That's crazy yeah
Right
Anyway
Another little note to think about is that the letter was written on a sheet of paper that was actually wider than the envelope
So it had to be folded a bunch of different times to fit in there
And that it had been started in pen and finished in pencil
(23:57):
Oh
So
Just two strange things
Where
Tommy had picked it up from the mailbox the morning of December 24th and believes that the letter was sealed but he couldn't really remember if it was or not
He remembers that it was the only thing in the mailbox that day and that the stamp had been cancelled that morning
So that means it was stamped over so you can't use it again meaning that it was delivered that morning
(24:21):
Despite their belief that the letter was not from Rachel all three families just kind of waited around very anxiously to just see if any of them would show up after a week
You know since they said they were only going to be gone for a week
But the week came and gone without any sign from any of the girls
And the family became more and more weary and concerned obviously as the girls didn't return for their safety you know
(24:46):
Weeks turned into months with no signs of the girls at all
Which sucks
Early on in the case a store clerk came forth stating that an elderly customer had told her that she had seen three girls being forced into a yellow pickup truck
But unfortunately this customer was never able to be tracked down so that they could speak to her further so that went nowhere
(25:11):
What?
What's wrong?
Why in that moment?
Okay
I know
Why in that moment would you just like be like brush it off?
Brush it off? Why wouldn't you be like um
(25:34):
Someone's forcefully making these three very young girls get into a truck against their will
Why wouldn't you do something about it? And as a store clerk why also wouldn't you like ask questions?
Bystander effect
That happens too much
That's that's why I laugh when people are like well nowadays people will just record on their phone and then it or not
(26:01):
No not nowadays this has always happened
We just didn't have phones to record it with first before people would just see something happen and they'd say
And walk away that happens all the time
They say oh well someone else will take care of it
Someone else will call the cops someone else will stop them
(26:23):
Someone else will pick up that dog that's running out in the middle of the street
But guess what?
Most people don't and nowadays we have cell phones so they won't do anything except keep it for later laugh ha ha's
Or views
Or views
That's so like okay
(26:46):
Yeah it's an overwhelming phenomenon that happens with people
I could see like a dog or an accident you know because like whatever right like I personally wouldn't
But I could see that but for someone like to visibly like getting forcefully put into a car
(27:10):
Yeah people do it screams or gunshots even
Crazy
Yeah it's fucking crazy
And maybe this was her being like well I told this store clerk
To her defense she was an old lady so maybe she couldn't do much but
(27:32):
I know but like even if you can't do much like at least just giving that information right then and there
Because then people could start looking for a yellow pick up
Exactly
Ugh
Anyway sorry my mind when you said that
I know it's crazy
What?
Another witness claims that he saw the girl sitting in a security patrol vehicle but this tip also went nowhere
(27:57):
Two people reporting that they saw the girls getting into a vehicle though so
But it's weird one was like a yellow pick up and one was a patrol car
Yeah
Which maybe she mistake you know often witnesses are very unreliable
Especially color make of vehicles and things like that it's often wrong
Yeah
(28:18):
You know so maybe she saw flashing lights from a security patrol vehicle that made it look yellow
You know you never know or maybe she was just flustered in the moment and had no fucking idea because
Well that happens quite often
That would almost like I mean they couldn't obviously track her down to talk to her about it
(28:40):
But maybe she just like vaguely told the store clerk like it was yellow because of the lights
And he said
That would make sense of why they maybe were forcefully put into the pickup car like if they were getting arrested of some kind
That would make sense but regardless all of these tips that were coming forward were taking them to no place
(29:06):
No avail no finding these girls no traces of them whatsoever
I obviously like I know it ended up leading them nowhere but did like when you were doing your research didn't talk about like the police going to the mall and like talking to their security and didn't give any of that
No because the police themselves treated this as a runaway case
(29:30):
The families were unfortunately the ones having to do all a lot of the investigation themselves which that's unfortunate
Yeah you know like you would think in like any other case if this was a witness saying like I saw them getting to a patrol vehicle security a security patrol vehicle you would go to like that mall that they were at and ask security
(29:55):
It could have been that easy
Could have but
Or maybe they did and they didn't have any record of it back then
I have a part that you will you'll be like oh okay you want to get to it they just didn't treat it well okay no they did it copy they decided not to do it in the spring of 1975 the families were rightfully frustrated by the police lack of investigation completely
(30:26):
Kind of just ignoring the case and deciding that they weren't going to look into it so they made the decision to hire a private investigator named john swim in 1976 fragments of human bones were found in Alvin but the bones came back in conclusive six years later bigger pieces of bone fragments
(30:50):
Including a lower leg bone were found in the same location which ended up launching a massive search in the area but the remains turned out to be those of three girls but not the three girls who had disappeared from Fort Worth and after this discovery there was no more significant leads that came forth in this case and it started to turn very fucking cold
(31:15):
Yeah three different girls three other girls for the fucking chances of that. Was there any other like reports of like other girls going missing. Now it's a whole different other case with those girls. Okay. So they like figured out who they actually were like the identity of those girls. Yeah.
Huh. But they were not the girls that they were looking for in this case and they don't think it correlates at all to the other case.
(31:45):
No. Interesting. Yeah. Right. Well, at least like those girls got some justice. Yeah.
But it's a weird coinkydink for sure. Yeah. So john who is that private investigator that the families had hired received an anonymous tip that the girls remains could be found near Port Lavaca 100 volunteers searched the boggy area but came up with nothing.
(32:10):
Surprise surprise. So nothing happened there. And then a few years later john actually committed suicide in 1979 by drug overdose. And this is where it gets really fucking weird because Renee's mother tried to collect the pictures of her daughter from her from his records that she had given to him.
And she learned that all of his records had been burned in what was apparently his very last request. What?
(32:40):
Wait. Yeah. He burned all of his fucking records.
Weird. Right. Do you think he like found who it was. And then that person in turn. I have no idea. He's just suicide. I have no idea. I just know it's fucking weird. You can go two ways with this and that's really weird.
(33:05):
Either a someone staged it to make him look like it like he knew he got him right. The investigator found the guy or a girl or whoever did this. And then they staged it or he did.
(33:26):
Yeah. He either found something he didn't want to know. He couldn't live with it or had something to do with it or it had nothing to do with this investigation at all. But the fact that he had all of his records burned especially when you have photos of someone's children.
Was it just that one specific case that all of his cases. Oh, that makes a little different. Okay. Still. I thought it was just that specific case but still yeah. It's weird. That is weird. Yeah.
(33:55):
I'm not saying he's hiding anything but like why. You know what I mean. It's why it's weird. That is definitely weird. Yeah. And that's where we're going to take our second smoke break.
This smoke break is brought to you by.
(34:19):
And we're back from our smoke break in 1979 a psychic called from Hawaii and said that the girls remains could be found in an oil well. So the police focused on an area called Rising Star that was just outside of al-Balin.
But of course nothing was found of any kind of significance or anything even remotely related to this case. Nothing. Yeah. I mean that's like.
(34:46):
Obviously a psychic you know most of us would say well that's nothing. But it does happen in a lot of these cases where there's absolutely nothing to go on and they're kind of finally like we'll fucking try it.
Might as well. I mean it's already a no right. Right. You might as well try it. Might as well. If they're right then maybe they also have something to do with it or they are psychic.
(35:11):
You know sometimes when they're desperate they do go down that route. So unfortunately she had nothing or they had nothing of significance to offer them.
Rusty was only 11 years old on the day his sister disappeared but he has dedicated his entire life towards solving this case.
In 1995 Rusty Arnold Rachel's younger brother made contact with a new private investigator Dan Jones. Jones was actually familiar with this case and he put up twenty five thousand dollar reward out of his own pocket for information leading to an arrest or conviction of the persons involved in the disappearance.
(35:51):
Yeah which is awesome. Like that's really fucking cool. You don't see that a lot. Yeah. He was never actually officially hired by the family. He did everything completely free pro bono for the family just to try and get this case solved.
But him and Rusty continued to investigate this case out of their own personal interest basically into getting it solved. In 2000 Deborah who is the sister spoke with Fort Worth Star Telegram and discussed how she knew Rusty blamed her for Rachel's disappearance.
(36:26):
Which is an interesting thing to say to just random people. A few days later a different letter was published by Rusty and some of the parents of the other missing girls. This letter read Dear Deborah we read your statement in the Fort Worth Star Telegram on January 9th 2000.
You indicated you had nothing to hide. If your statement is true we beg and plead with you to fully cooperate with the Fort Worth Police Department and the FBI. Please complete the polygraph test and answer all the questions.
(37:04):
Deborah please keep in mind you also have a sister missing respectfully. Riann Mosley Rusty Arnold Judy Wilson and Richard Wilson. Interesting. So that kind of just goes back to the theory.
The only signatures that were missing was from Rusty and Rachel and Deborah's mother Fran. She believed that Dan Jones poisoned Rusty's mind and destroyed what remained of her family by turning Rusty and Deborah against each other.
(37:35):
So Fran and Rusty did not speak for years because of this.
Which is crazy.
I'm not saying that Deborah had anything to do with it.
I'm just saying if my little sister went missing, you best believe I would do everything in my power to cooperate with making sure things move forward. It seems like that is not the case.
(38:09):
She's writing this kind of letter to someone who's cooperating.
And it seems like very just like targeted at her.
Yeah.
Of like they don't believe she's telling the truth. They don't believe it at all whatsoever.
And then it like almost goes back to the theory too of when we were talking at the beginning of you saying it seemed like the girls knew.
(38:35):
Who knew who it was. Yeah.
So in 2009, Deborah actually posted on this web sleuth forum regarding this case, she revealed that she had actually undergone multiple polygraph tests which showed that she had nothing to do with it which polygraph tests.
(38:57):
I don't know. Pish posh. I don't really think we can go off that but yeah she stated that she believes Rusty's confusion and paranoia stems from years of substance abuse, which I saw nothing in my research that he had anything to do with any drugs or alcohol or anything but
(39:19):
And like it wasn't just Rusty either. It was a lot of the other parents. Right. So if that was the case, that doesn't even check out or make sense of like why the other parents were saying that as well.
So obviously there's something that a couple different people are saying that they're like, something doesn't really add up here. Yeah, there's a lot of really very different family dynamics going on here that are just
(39:48):
interesting. Yeah.
And I'm curious and I'm sure everybody else is like what led him to this conclusion and the first place you know.
And maybe it was kind of like where we were where it was just like, yeah, I mean, seems a little strange. Maybe she's a little jealous. Or maybe there was more to it.
(40:11):
Yeah.
But aren't those like the types of like, it's so easy sitting here now after the fact but aren't those like the questions like you would think people would ask. Yeah, like, when they're giving out the statement well what makes you think that.
Right. Do you have any like evidence or anything like out of the ordinary that has to be something I want to, I want to know if her and Tommy got together after. Yeah, that's what I was like, I couldn't find anything like I couldn't find it.
(40:40):
I was really curious about that. That's what I was gonna ask to like if their relationship changed after the fact, or she was still living with them right. That would be like a huge piece.
Maybe that was one of the things could be and maybe they're just hiding it, keeping it close to the chest you know what I mean. Yeah. In 2001, the case was reopened and assigned to a homicide detective named Tom Botchner or Bochner.
(41:09):
Finally, this case was actually picked up as a missing persons case because it had not been this whole time.
2001.
1974 is when this happened.
That's insane runaways.
For that long is crazy.
(41:31):
Unfortunately, no significant leads had ever come from reopening the investigation. Botchner made a statement saying that he believes that the girls left with someone that they had trusted.
Additionally, he believes that more than one individual was involved with the abduction. The police did not speculate on whether they thought the girls were alive or dead, but Botchner revealed that the that detectives had written over 150 letters to different coordinators in five different states to inquire about any unidentified female remains found since 1974, just to see if they could connect any of those bodies to
(42:13):
the girls. He also claimed that the fourth Fort Worth detectives had narrowed the number of suspects to just under five, which I think is pretty significant.
Does it say who they are?
No, it does not.
I was ready for the tea.
I know they're not going to give that tea until they know for sure. Unfortunately, Bill Hutchins is a retired Fort Worth office police officer who was working security at Sears on the day that the girls disappeared.
(42:44):
And according to him, he had seen the girls in a pickup truck of a young security guard. They were laughing and they did appear to be quite at ease with this security guard, which is interesting because that is the third tip that they got about those girls being in a pickup truck, two of which were the security guard.
(43:10):
Interesting to me. Hutchins phoned the tip in when he heard about the girls disappearance, but he claimed that the police never reached out to him for further information.
And he assumed that the case must have been solved. And he was obviously very, very, very, very shocked when the police did reach out to him in 2001 to follow up with his fucking tip.
(43:34):
Wow. Yeah, no, that's absolutely insane.
2001. So when you said earlier about the police following up on the security guard and I was like, well, yeah, they kind of did. That's what I meant.
But after it was to a different department, it took a hands of a different department, a whole different squad to do it. That's insane. Even okay, let's like this should just be like protocol.
(44:02):
It should just be basic protocol. Even if you think it is a runaway case. Yeah, you should still have to follow these protocols. Yeah. Same with like doing an autopsy. You always should do an autopsy on a body like things like that.
Day one things that you shouldn't be missing. But some people just want to solve these cases or chalk it up to whatever the fuck. And then we end up with things like this. Apparently, the security guard was interviewed and identified, but he denied seeing the girls that day.
(44:38):
And that just denies it. And they're like, oh, OK, nothing. We had three witnesses say, you know, nothing happened. Sick. Yeah. As of 2001, Dan and Rusty believe that only Rachel was alive, which I thought was interesting.
And they believe that she visits Fort Worth area every Christmas. And this is based on like credible witnesses who apparently saw Rachel in 1998 around Christmas time. I think that's really weird that both Dan and Rusty think that that is so weird, isn't it?
(45:14):
Wait, but if that was I know. Well, we won't know why Dan or Rusty think this because they're completely unwilling to discuss the theory. Oh, beyond just stating that someone close to them and someone that was close to the girls was involved with the disappearance.
(45:38):
That's all they'll say. Wait, say that again. They said that they're not willing to discuss it other beyond that someone close to them and someone that was close to the girls was involved with their disappearing.
Someone that was close to them was involved and then it's correct.
(45:59):
Correct. Wait, correct. Because no, then that makes like I'm not going to say this is for sure. But this makes so much sense. I know. And it's sad. Like, I don't want it to.
And we don't know that it is. But like.
You jealous bitch.
(46:20):
If that's what happened.
I'm jealous ass bitch. That's all I can say. It is crazy that they say only Rachel is alive. I know. Like how. So what if the like.
I know this is frustrating as fuck.
(46:41):
It's so frustrating because I feel like it's like right there. So over the years, Rusty's been doing quite a bit of research, trying to trace down any type of information he can find about this case.
His search did lead him to Ben Brook Lake, which is eight miles from the mall, which is nearby a quote unquote person of interest house. Rusty set his sight on three cars that were in the bottom of that lake.
(47:11):
He felt that maybe those cars could have clues in them that would maybe help the case. So he privately funded a diving team on September 22nd of 2018. Oh, wow. To go in there and pull the cars out.
The first car that was pulled to the surface was on that day. And then a few weeks later, on October 13th, the second car was pulled up and neither of these cars had any type of information that he was looking for or that could help the case.
(47:43):
You said there was only two or there was three cars. There's three in total, but those. But they only pulled up two.
Due to flooding, the diving team was not able to pull the third car up until September 16th of 2019. So a whole year later, when they dove to the bottom of the lake, they found that the car was deteriorating pretty bad and that even the slightest touch made it fall apart.
(48:10):
Oh, wow. So this car was unfortunately deemed too dangerous to pull out of the lake. So instead of pull the car out, the team decided to take the search down to the bottom of the lake.
And on July 17th of 2020, so another year later, Rusty and a member of his team dove to the bottom of Ben Brook Lake and searched that car that was on the bottom. Again, no evidence was found, which of course was very disappointing for Rusty and the team.
(48:41):
But he did admit that there was little to no chance that these cars even had any connection to his sister's disappearance. But he wanted to try regardless.
I mean, might as well try. Yeah. Especially if you have like nothing. He said that him and his team did identify other lakes of interest and hope that maybe they could do the same thing with those lakes eventually and repeat the process.
(49:08):
So is that like a theory of like they think the car? I think so. Well, I wonder where this lake was so close to that person of interest house. I wonder if they thought maybe they just dumped a car in the lake or whatever.
Clearly, there's something there that makes him think that. Yeah, it would be in the water or maybe that was a tip from some. I don't know. It doesn't say a lot of reasoning as to why, but I would assume that he has reason.
(49:42):
Yeah. And if not, maybe he's just pulling at any card he can think of, you know, which is a dedicated brother. Unfortunately, other than that, this case of the Fort Worth trio remains unsolved to this day.
What are your thoughts on this one?
I think now this is just my theory, but I think like I've been piecing it together a little bit throughout the episode. I've been like saying some stuff, but I think that it was Deborah and Tommy.
(50:18):
I think they at the very least have more information that they're not giving. And even if it wasn't them directly because there was another security guard involved with it a little bit. Maybe they knew someone that did do something or paid someone to do something.
You never know. It's crazy that they would go for three different girls, though, that like if we're using that theory, what did the other girls have to do with it? Just being innocent bystanders, wrong place, wrong time.
(50:50):
Maybe innocent bystanders or.
I don't know. Yeah, because that's like.
I guess that would be the easiest way to be like, oh, they ran away. It's like all three of them, but like that's a fucking lot.
And maybe with all three of them, it's like easier to say maybe it wasn't direct attack to just Rachel. Yeah, right.
(51:15):
But then it brings me to the theory that like if she is so alive, then why just her? Why just her too? Yeah, because that would be really weird if she's alive and this was all to get her to go away.
Like.
Then why is she still here? Or it's like completely just coincidence that Deborah was a little odd and someone just got away with this.
(51:42):
Which that also could be the case. Yeah, because I mean, although Deborah's actions were a little weird and it's like a little weird having that history between Tommy and Deborah.
Like there wasn't anything like two out there in your face where it's like, yeah, it was definitely other than the fact that a couple of things were weird and then rusty and a couple of the parents thought it was also something to do with Deborah.
(52:07):
Yeah. And it seems like they had said that they had five. They narrowed it down to five different five people of interest. Five.
So like, I feel like they're close to solving it.
Yeah, you know what I mean? I think they know they just need solid evidence. Yeah, you know, and maybe with this, maybe they have like a theory and maybe that's why they're looking at the lakes.
(52:34):
Like. Which is like is one of those things that we won't know until we know.
Well, it sounds like this is pretty recent of like some of this stuff going on. So hopefully, like they start to do more investigating with like the lakes and stuff of like looking at different vehicles and maybe some stuff will come to the surface, because it seems like they're still like willing to investigate it some.
(53:00):
Yeah, which is awesome. Finally took them long enough to be willing to. Yeah, but that's crazy. And the fact that it took them that long to switch it over from a runaway case to a missing person case is absolutely insane.
It's crazy. It's really fucking crazy. I hate that so much.
(53:27):
Well, any other theories, thoughts?
That's what I got. Me too. This is a fucking conundrum of a case.
But as always, if you guys have theories, please, please, please, please let us know in the comments.
And if not, please let us know about at least the Mandela effect thing. Oh yeah, the song.
(53:54):
Yeah, let us know because it's bothering me.
And until next time, stay high, stay safe. And thank you for watching.
Bye.
Hey guys, let us know what you think down below in the comments but as always be respectful and kind as these are serious cases that have yet to be solved. If you enjoyed the show, please like subscribe and hit the notification bell so you can know when we drop our next episode.
(54:23):
You fucking bitch. I fucking hate you.
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