January 7, 2024 • 38 mins
Imagine mustering the courage to demand the salary you truly deserve—Dorothy Mashburn, the negotiation virtuoso, and I, Minessa Konecky, unravel the complexities behind this daunting task. This episode is a treasure trove of insights, empowering you to peel away the layers of societal conditioning and self-doubt that have long dictated our worth in the workplace. Together, we dissect the systemic ideologies and gender-specific hurdles that often handcuff our confidence, providing you with the strategies needed to assert your value and secure the compensation that reflects your true worth.
Swaying in the gravity of societal expectations can paralyze us from climbing the ladder to financial empowerment. Join us as we shed light on the psychological tactics of anchoring in salary discussions and the transformative power of having a strong 'Option B'. Dorothy Mashburn's wisdom is a beacon, guiding you through the nuances of workplace dynamics and teaching you how to flip the power balance in your favor. Our conversation is a masterclass in crafting leverage and the fine art of transforming negotiations into partnerships, instilling a bold confidence that radiates through every aspect of your professional and personal life.
This episode isn't just about asking for that raise; it's a playbook for approaching all of life's negotiations with clarity, confidence, and the joy of knowing you're stepping into your power.
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🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
This is one of my favorite albums of all time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey there, I'm Vanessa Konnicki, and this is
Stop Shitting All Over Yourselfa show to remind you that you do
know what you're doing and youare enough exactly as you are.
Each episode, I connect with anincredible human being who has
walked the path that you're on.
It's the path that leaves otherpeople's expectations for who
you're supposed to be and thedecisions that you're supposed
to make by the wayside andreplaces those ideas with a
(00:28):
blueprint for your life that youdesign.
These are stories that willinspire you, and the tactics
that they apply will help you tolay the bricks on the road to a
happier and more joyful you, asalways.
Thank you so much for listeningand, if you're on YouTube, drop
a like or subscribe to get allthe feel good content from
Vanessa TV.
But now let's listen in, as Ihave a conversation with Dorothy
(00:50):
Mashburn, a salary negotiationexpert and someone who is a
consistent inspiration to me interms of how she views and
approaches money.
One of the biggest challengesthat so many of us face is
asking for what we're worthAsking for the raise, making
that argument to say this iswhat I want to make.
The things that hold us backaren't just our own anxieties,
(01:11):
but there are years of systemicideologies piled on top of
employees to keep them in aposition where they ask for less
, which ultimately has thebiggest impact on the bottom
line for the company.
For a lot of corporations,their salary and fringe line
takes up the most of theirbudget.
So if they can keep your costslow, then it works out better
for them.
But how does that help us asemployees in living our most
(01:32):
authentic and joyful lives Whilethe bottom line is getting
bigger?
Are we making enough money toat minimum compensate for the
cost of living or at bestprovide for a healthy, joyful
and fulfilling life?
There is a lot to unpack inthis conversation and I know
that you're going to be asmesmerized as I am by her
brilliant approach.
So let's listen in and you'llbe asking for a raise before you
(01:53):
know it.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Diving in yourself is not selfish.
A lot of people they dreamabout big goals, they think
about big goals, but then, whenit comes to investing in
yourself, they hesitate.
This might be like I'm spendingtoo much money.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Let's dive in on that now, because I'd like to
actually dive into that a littlebit, starting with that in that
, why do you think it is thatpeople?
Because I had that samephilosophy for so many years,
where it's like somebody wouldtell me to hire a coach and I
would spend money on food, I'dspend money on rent, I'd spend
money, I'd even spend money onclothes before I would spend
(02:39):
money on a coach to train me to,and that was in retrospect.
I can see how that hindered mygrowth.
But why do you think I did that?
Where do you think that?
I mean not that I'm asking youmy therapist, but generally
speaking, where does that comefrom?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Part of it, I believe , is social programming.
We are always, especially aswomen as to women or girls, as
we are growing up in a verypatriarchal society, told to
help others, share with others,groom or nurture others, but the
self always takes a back seat.
So when it comes to whetherit's a physical trainer, hiring
(03:17):
somebody, it's like those 200bucks a month or 300 bucks a
month, whatever the number is,or 500 becomes like oh, I'm
going to spend on myself and myfamily may not get X, y and Z,
or my kids don't get X, Y and Z.
And it becomes this narrativeinside our heads where we're
saying it's selfish to spendthat much money on myself.
(03:38):
And sometimes it's not asconscious, it's like quick, you
know like you think about themoney you spend on me, or on
eating out every Friday, andeating out on every Friday wins,
because spending the money onmyself means that I'm depriving
my family of that fund.
So that's, I would say that's abig one.
(03:59):
And then, second, I think thereis a lot of hesitation on not
having the confidence that youwill put in the work, because
coaching is not a magic pill.
It's something like you have toput in the work.
You know somebody can guide youand give you the takeaway, the
noise, so you can really focus.
(04:20):
But then it's also work.
You have to put in the work andnot a lot of people feel that
they can or have the time to dothat.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
You know, I think there's also the you know you
were talking earlier about.
You know the narrative that wehave in our heads, like, if you
like, let's say, you tell me, oh, I just bought myself a massage
right, and now I'm thinking,God, you were a terrible mother,
didn't you tell me that yourdaughter needed cleats right?
Or something like that right.
So there's like that, even ifthe story isn't real right
(04:54):
Because the problem is andhere's what I'm curious about
right Because, like, there's theside of the story that isn't
real right Because I'm notactually saying that to you and
I never would even think that,but in your mind you may write
that story, that somebody isgoing to think that.
But on the other hand, there isthose of us like so you know, I
grew up in Pakistan and myresponsibility was to make sure
(05:16):
that, as I grew up, I did thesethings, and there were people
who would actually say that youwere not being a good sister,
wife, mother, whatever, becauseyou weren't doing these things.
And there's many places in theworld and here's the thing it's
a vert in some places and it'scovert in others, but you will
find it everywhere where peoplewill literally tell you I can't,
(05:36):
I cannot believe you spentmoney on that.
So I'm curious to know do youwork with clients, like when you
, or do you work with people whoactually have the overt stuff,
where people are really tellingthem that they're bad?
And how does that even navigatethat space?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, let me think about that.
So a lot of it I would say 80percent is covert because you
know a lot of people know thatit's in the surface level.
You know that you know wearingthe oxygen mask first before
putting it on your child in theplane in case of emergency
they've heard that right, youtake care of you first and then
(06:14):
take care of your child orwhoever else is depending on you
.
So on the very surface level weknow that it's not selfish.
But then under the layers, alot of it is covert, unconscious
training.
I cannot honestly think aboutanybody who you know.
Where it does become covert Imean overt is at workplaces
(06:39):
where if you are asserting, youknow being say I want to be part
of that project, that's goingto give me a big visibility, you
may be seen as extra aggressiveor being told that you know
you're putting yourself firstbefore your team, so you get shy
.
You know you get shy fromsaying next time raising your
(07:00):
hand and you overgeneralize.
And it's a bit of I guess youknow, thought distortion where
you're overgeneralizing.
Last time I did raise my hand.
You know I got a small scoldingsaying hey, you're putting
yourself and so every singletime afterwards you're going to
say I'm not going to speak upfor myself.
(07:21):
Or I'm not going to say I need$10,000 to go develop myself.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You know, let's actually jump in on that,
because I think that's actuallya really key thing, because we
started off by talking thatinvesting in yourself is
important, right and like, and Ithink that you touched base on
the fact that you have tobelieve that you're worthy of
that investment, that it's notselfish, and actually the truth
is is it is selfish, but that'sokay.
(07:47):
Like, selfish sounds like ajudgy term, but it's like you
know, it's not it's self, it'sactually self less, in that
you're you're, you're, you'rerebuilding, you're building
yourself more for others.
And the reason why I'm going tobring this up in the context of
the workplace is I used to runmy own business many moons ago
(08:09):
and a lot of my clients wouldtrade time for money.
So they'd you know, let's say,you charge $50 an hour for them.
If they needed to make moremoney, it was not raise my
prices, it was work more hours.
People that I've worked with incorporate America they are same
thing.
Whereas you're hourly, it'slike work more hours, right, you
never, really most people don'task for a raise, and so you
(08:33):
know sorry my throat all of asudden.
So when I think of those of usat work right, who are almost
really like giving ourselves avoice and saying, hey, I want to
make X dollars or I want Y,right, oh, did I lose you?
(08:54):
I lost you, vanessa.
Oh, yeah, no, I lost you too.
I was like wait, where did yougo?
Are you there?
Now I'm here, but I can't seeyou.
(09:15):
You can't see me, I can't seeyou.
Hold on, let me turn on yourcamera, let me just see.
Ask to start video and then I'mgoing to stop video and then
start video there we go Allright.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Okay, perfect, all right.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, so okay.
So what I was really actuallygoing we were talking about
raising your hand at work andlike and getting scolded for
that.
Coming back to that, you know,and being conditioned, because I
think the reason why I was soexcited to have you on today is
that this is such a complicatedtopic.
This idea of negotiating salary, asking for what you're worth
(09:55):
and really not shying away fromasking for the funds that you
deserve to be able to live yourlife and I think that so many of
us like that is at the baseline, right.
So if you're not getting paidan adequate amount, then that
literally cascades into everyother part of your life.
(10:15):
Then I go into a meeting with myboss where I know this right.
So I know that I need an extra50,000, or I know I need to
shoot 5,000 or whatever it isthat I know that I need, like I
know this, that this is thedollar amount that I need for me
to be able to live my best lifeand have everything right.
And I'm sitting in that room.
I will, and I have in the past.
You know I've obviously gonethrough a lot of coaching to
(10:36):
work my way through this, butthe default position is still
there that when the conversationbegins, I don't even feel
worthy of investing my voice tomyself.
So when they say oh well, whatdo you want?
I will cut my rate down 50%before I've even opened my mouth
, right and like.
But walking in there, I had thenumber, I'm ready.
I got the thing, and you sitdown and there's like oh no,
(10:59):
I'll take whatever you give me,thank you.
So can you tell me a little bitabout like?
Like, because now you're almostshooting yourself in the foot
because that's the oxygen mask,right, that's the mask that's
going to keep you alive andgoing, so that your whole family
can be happy, and now you canhave cleats and also go get a
massage.
What?
What happens to us in thatmoment and what can we do in
(11:20):
that moment to navigate thatsituation?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, that's a really small question.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I just asked very small.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, how many hours you have.
You know, I think the thecouple of things is we have
learned fear to adjust ourselves, to make ourselves smaller
because of fear.
So a lot of it.
I think of fear as gravityright.
So a lot of society is based on, you know, just like gravity
(11:47):
keeps the planets in place,society is built so that
everybody knows their place andeverybody's acting in a way that
helps the larger society.
So, you know, fear is thatpower or energy that keeps us
all in our spots.
And so when an individual triesto, you know, like especially a
(12:09):
female or who's been raisedfemale with female conditioning,
you know they are thinking if Iraise my voice, if I say, if I
make myself bigger, I fear thatI'm going to get rejected,
because that's what we've beentrained to do, you know.
So you're literally trying totake off away from gravity.
You know, get into outer space,and so you're fighting years
(12:33):
and years of societalconditioning and programming,
because that's what society wasbuilt to do, you know.
And so that's why when, Ibelieve, when you're raising
your voice, you're literallytrying to, you know, get rid of
gravity, go out into outer space, and that's a lot of, you know,
counterweights that you'retrying to fight against.
(12:55):
And that's what's happening,and you're making yourself
smaller, so you're not seen as athreat.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
That's exactly how it feels.
That is like literally how itfeels, cause you feel like
you're being pulled in thedirection of what you know is
right, versus what you'resupposed to do.
And then, but then there's thatnext level, right.
So you know, if I so let's say,I do find my voice in that
moment and I say this is what Iwant, right.
And so there was actually mywife, years ago, was negotiating
(13:25):
for her salary and the numberthat, like she was, she's a big
fan of anchoring right.
So she goes in to the and I hadno idea.
I watched this happen and I waslike I don't understand what
just happened, like I reallydon't understand what just
happened.
She's on a call with her bossand her boss is like you know,
what do you want for?
You know salary.
And so she gives the number andher boss starts laughing at her
(13:47):
, like literally just laughing,like this is the most ridiculous
request ever.
And my wife was like completelyunfazed, like totally unfazed,
and I'm sitting there going likeoh my God, like I'm panicking,
like what's happening, and shegets off the call.
And I said, and I asked her, Iwas like, oh my God, that didn't
go well, she goes.
Oh, it went perfect.
And I was like what?
And she's like listen, firstthings first.
(14:07):
She's like I said the highernumber.
Now, whatever number, low ballnumber they were going to give
me, they have now been anchoredat a higher number.
So I'm going to get a highernumber no matter what.
Yes, yes Two.
I'm not going to get thatnumber, but I'm going to get a
higher number no matter what.
And so her dismissal of thatrejection was like I didn't even
know, that was a thing I didn'tknow.
You could just reject that.
(14:28):
Like I'm curious to know how.
Like, first of all, if my wifewas your client, what would you
say?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And second, I would give her a trophy you don't need
any services.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
You're good, you're good, I know.
Right, she taught like it'samazing.
But you know, and so I'mcurious, though, how do you deal
with that on the other side?
Like so now I'm your, I'm yourclient and I'm telling you these
are my problems.
And you're like yeah, I'm goingto help you, you give me the
language and the scripts, but myboss is not going to go with
the script that I.
You know they're going to havetheir own shit to say about it.
And how do you deal with thatresistance?
Like, what are your thoughts onwhere that resistance comes
(14:59):
from and how to, how to, how tonavigate that?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean so when, when you're negotiating,
it's more than just that one anddone conversation, right?
So, first of all, anchoringabsolutely works, you know.
So think about, like, if you'regoing to target and you see a
pair of shoes for like $35 andyou're like I don't know if I
want to spend $35.
I'm going to go on the salerack and buy something for $20.
(15:24):
So 35 in that instance is a bignumber for you.
But when you go to, say, a newbalance or Nike store you know
this maybe the shoes are 150 andthey're discounted at $100.
And you're like, wow, that's agreat deal, I'm going to buy
this pair of shoes at $100,right?
So that's what's happening inour brain.
When you're anchoring at abigger number, anything, you
(15:45):
know, you don't go from $150 tosay $20.
You're happy with the $100.
So that's what anchoring is allabout and that's what,
psychologically, your wife didwith her boss.
So kudos to her.
But negotiation, to my earlierpoint, is more than just that
one conversation.
So if you truly believe thatyou're worth $150, you're going
(16:06):
to create what we call leveragein your negotiation by adding
another factor, which could be ajob in a different department
or a job in a different industryor even an entrepreneurial
option.
So I have one client who went insaying that you know, hey, you
know, I've been with thiscompany for eight plus years and
(16:26):
I've only seen incremental 3%growth and I've been antsy.
I want to do more.
I can give more, but I want toalso see a pay increase.
And what I've started doing onthe weekends and I really enjoy,
is entrepreneurial things.
Like you know, she makes beadednecklaces and they were taking
off in Etsy and it's like I'mthinking about getting a small
(16:48):
business loan and doing thisfull time because this job and
the money is just not worth it.
And that immediately got areaction from her current
company because they know thatthey valued her.
And so this what we call aBATNA best alternative to a
negotiated agreement basicallymeans she has an option B and
when she has an option B, thenshe starts getting the attention
(17:10):
that she needed and they, youknow, gave her a promotion, went
to a senior analyst and gaveher a $50,000 raise.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
You know that's freaking amazing so that's what
you know.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
So negotiating is more than a conversation, and
you have a whole strategy behindit, and that's how you leverage
to get to the next rung.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You know there's a couple of things you said there.
The first is is fucking amazing.
That's just to start with that.
That's amazing, but I think youknow.
The second thing is is, youknow, she let's talk about that
dynamic going into the officewhere she comes in and says you
know, I've been making thesebeaded necklaces and they're
doing really well, and so she'shaving a conversation with her
(17:53):
boss.
Like, initially, theconversation is a power dynamic,
where the boss is I have themoney, I have the job, I have
the power, I have everything andyou are a supplicant coming to
me requesting these things.
And I think that's actually oneof the bigger challenges that I
think I and I don't know whatto do about it.
But energetically, that's whatI feel happens in these
conversations is that there is apresumption that you're lucky
(18:14):
that you have a job here andwe've all been conditioned in
that way that, like and I hearpeople say it all the time I
should just be lucky to have ajob.
It's like no, and so the waythat I've started to think about
it and I don't you'll have tolike, help me with this, because
it's new thoughts for me ismore like I am an expert in.
I'm a research, administrativeexpert and this one of the
things I'm an expert at and Irent my time to the company that
(18:37):
is, and you're not buying my,you don't get to control me, but
I feel like that I'm lucky tohave a job idea, coupled with
almost like this philosophy thatyour job is your identity.
Do you feel like like, do youfeel like a lot of people go in
without having, like you said,that option be, and not having
(18:57):
that option be almost makes itfeel like this is my only option
, like almost this is like allor nothing, and I will literally
not be able to feed my familyif I don't have this, and like
that now creates a, like yousaid that, fearful conversation.
I'm walking in just hoping Idon't lose my job.
Yeah, your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yep, absolutely, and that's why it's a whole strategy
, right?
So, yeah, if you go in and youhit the nail on the head when
you said power dynamic, right.
So you, what you're doing witha option be is creating your,
shifting the power, powerdynamic to you, because now they
need you more than you needthem, and that's why the option
(19:35):
be has to be a realistic optionthat you can execute if things
go south.
So first, two things that Iwill say.
You know, when you ask for moremoney, always remember that you
will not lose your job.
You know, of course, if you, ifyou come in all entitled and
act unprofessional, you will.
But if you simply ask for araise or ask to be considered
(19:57):
for a promotion, there's,there's no reason any reasonable
person is going to say you'reterminated.
So take that fear out of yourmind, right?
So that's one thing.
And then, second is BarbaraStanny has a great book called.
She works a lot of about underour nurse and what she talks
about is people.
We people who are fearful tendto also martyr ourselves saying
(20:21):
that, oh, you know, I, like youknow, I'm not in it for the
money, or, you know, I'm justhappy to have a job because it
fulfills me and so why would Igo anywhere elsewhere?
So these are all selfsabotaging type.
You know it's narratives in ourbrain, so we've got to be very
cognizant about that.
And if, if we catch ourselves,then we've got to like write
(20:45):
things down.
So again, it's a whole strategy.
You have to understand yourself.
And then also, before you doanything else, you've got to
like self correct all of theconditioning, all of the fear
before you even execute anoption, be before you even go,
have that conversation.
And but if you do have thatconversation, it's like you know
(21:06):
in Star Wars, right when Lukegoes over and fights with Darth
Vader before he's ready and youknow he gets his hand chopped
off.
There's like, yeah, it canhappen for you, but it's going
to be painful and it's going tolike get make you gunshot for
the next one because it's goingto be.
You may get like an incrementalyou know 5%, 10% but you also
get a lot of scars because youwent in unprepared.
(21:28):
But if you go in prepared, thenyou are set for life, like if
you have a whole strategy thatmakes sense, that gets the power
back in your court versusgiving them the power, then you
have truly set yourself up forsuccess.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
You know.
I so agree on the on all of it,like especially the preparation
part, because I think, like toooften, we go into these
situations blind and we makeassumptions about what we think
is happening and we'll oftenassume to our detriment, right
going back to the point where wemight have to murder ourselves.
I laughed when you said thatbecause I saw myself in that
right, like it's oh no, no, Ijust did like and I've got a
(22:05):
different relationship withmoney now, but like it took a
long time, lots of coaching,lots of therapy, and it's going
to sound, I guess, maybe soundweird, but it's, I guess it's
kind of the way it is.
Right is that a lot of thisstuff is like therapy stuff,
right, is like conditioning,stuff is like belief and self
worth.
Because if I go into a meetingor an interview where I'm
(22:27):
feeling confident, right, andI'm confident about my skills,
I'm confident about my value,I'm confident about my option B,
I'm just, I'm confident ingeneral and I'm confident that
we're partners like I'm, thatI'm talking to someone who's a
partner, then we're going tohave a very different type of
conversation.
Then, if I go in with you, aremy boss who controls all the
power, like just the tone ofvoice that I use.
(22:48):
Yeah, yeah, different, you knowyep, yeah, and that's and that's
tough and I so I think that oneof the things that really
turned me on a lot about how Ifound you I can't remember, so
just that everybody knows Ifound you, so I basically got on
.
I saw your on LinkedIn and yoursalary negotiation the fact
that you work specifically andexclusively in knowing your
worth, negotiation these keycritical areas I like the
(23:13):
greatest person on the wholeplanet, because so many of the
people that I work with you knowall of my audience and
listeners have.
They have had some sort ofchronic illness or they're
caregivers for people who havechronic illness.
These are people who are reallydexterous, intelligent,
creative, but because of thenature of our, our life
(23:35):
framework, we struggle withhaving a voice for ourselves,
and so we'll take the penniesand the and it's what's funny is
like for all the people around,including myself.
I see that we're worth diamonds, but that we're willing to
settle for just oh, my God, isthat dust.
Thank you so much for thelittle bit of dust that you just
gave me, and I think my worldreally started to change when I
(23:57):
had the scripts and theconfidence and then everything
else came after that because,like, at some point I realized
that what I had been doingwasn't working.
So I've been trying to do thingsa different way for a really
long time and I'm like it's notworking.
And so I what I did was I tookwhat you said just now and I
just believed it and and my soulwas like you're full of shit.
And I'm like, no, I believethis Right.
(24:18):
But like it, I had to pretend,and I remember the reason why I
bring up the voice is because Iremember going into a call where
I had to play with my voicebeforehand so that it didn't
sound tight and, like you know,like almost victimized, versus
like hey, we're here talking,we're friends, we've
collectively got something thatwe're sharing together.
I noticed on your website thatthat's something that you help
(24:41):
with in that, and so I wanted totouch on that because I didn't
believe it First.
I had the script Right, so Iwas like I don't really believe
it, but I'm going to pretendthat I'm going to script, I'm
going to use a script.
So can you share a little bitabout how you feel like having
these like?
How do these scripts helppeople when they're like,
because like somebody who rightnow is struggling with asking
for raises and going to tomorrow, suddenly be like I'm ready to
(25:01):
ask for a raise?
Yeah, so how do you use scriptsor how do you, how do you feel
like those help your clients andpeople in getting where they're
worth?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah, yeah, you know, one of the things that I want
to elaborate on.
What you actually touched on isas a as an expert in your field
, as a subject matter expert,you have all of the power, right
.
But you're going in thinkingabout the old fashion sort of
employer employee relationship.
You know you have to loveyourself as, as you mentioned,
(25:30):
as a free agent.
You know you have servicesyou're going to offer them at a
certain cost and they need yourservices and they're going to
pay you for it, so, so that'sone thing to really start
thinking about.
You know, like, if you're aworld class athlete, right,
you're not going to go in saying, oh yeah, you know, I'm just
happy working 40 hours.
You know you're going to talkabout millions, right, and
(25:51):
they're going to pay you becauseyou're going to earn them
something.
So you have to reframe in yourmind that whole dynamic that
we've been taught or conditionedto think about.
Now to your question about youknow, how you know, how do you
overnight change?
So our brains, you know andthere's neuroscience behind it
(26:12):
you know, what we say toourselves has a huge amount of
impact on what we believe.
So our brain doesn'tnecessarily can tell whether you
know, if you tell your brainyou know you you don't deserve
it, you know your your crap andyou, etc.
Etc.
Your brain's going to believethat.
But if you tell your brain thatyou know you're awesome, your
(26:33):
influential, your charismatic,you can, you can do anything,
your brain's going to believethat.
So it's really important thatself talk to ourselves.
And again, the book that I wouldrecommend for your listeners is
called chatter and, and the andthe research scientist who's
written that book goes into alot of details about self talk
and how that conditions andprimes are mine to have or not
(26:57):
have confidence.
And so self talk is reallyimportant and there are
different tricks and that youcan use.
One could be one easy one couldbe every day in your journal.
Write down I'm influential andconfident, and in 30 days you'll
feel more influential andconfident, you know.
So these are ways to trick yourbrain to start being what you
(27:19):
want that your brain to be.
You know.
And if you want to want it tobe weak and, you know, not
confident, you can continue whatyou've been telling yourself.
It'll believe it.
But if you wanted to change,then make, make.
Make one small step and it'sgoing to make all the difference
.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Amen.
Thank you for thatrecommendation, because that is
like it's a self talk.
I agree.
So much it.
It changed every.
It changes everything.
I just had this conversationwith my sister and you know
she's been going through her ownjourney and we were at the
phase where the space where Isaid, okay, I'm going to
challenge you, the samechallenge my therapist gave me
like I've.
You know it's a classicchallenge, everybody's got to do
(27:58):
it which is I challenge you toflip the script and for one week
, anytime you say I suck, sayI'm amazing, anytime you just
like flip it for one week andjust see what happens.
and if the world doesn't explode, then why not just keep going?
Yeah, yeah, and it makes adifference, like it really does.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, I mean all of our, all of
our cliches, right like, flipthe script.
They mean something becauseit's work, right, it's work for
hundreds of years.
But maybe we need to hear it ina different way.
Maybe some of our listenerswant to think about, you know,
is there actually neuroscience?
And let me tell you, there isactually science behind this
where, you know, the chatter inour brain actually can be
(28:37):
extremely powerful if we let it,by just unleashing the power
that we have, by saying the goodthings, saying the confident
things to ourselves, and we canbecome truly unstoppable if we,
if we let it.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
My grandmother used to always say all these things
right and so many things, and Iwould say, wow, this is just
old-fashioned village wisdom andI remember poo-pooing on it
constantly and I now mygrandfather as well, and now,
with all the neuroscience stuffthat you're talking about, I'm
reading this stuff and I'm likethey were right all along and
(29:11):
sometimes I say to myself, whydidn't anybody think to tell me
these things?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
And it's like no, you know what they did try to tell
me I just wasn't and you werejust not ready to take it.
Right, I wasn't ready to takeit.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, I'm curious were you ever in a like when you
did you spring fully forth fromthe womb with this confidence,
or did you grow into thisconfidence?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I had to grow into it .
There was a lot of falling alot of.
So I'm an immigrant, so I'mfrom a small province in the
Himalayas and when I first cameto the United States about 20
years ago, I was extremelynervous.
There was no social support.
I didn't have any sponsors andmentors, things.
(29:51):
I looked around and my peerswere light years ahead of me as
far as ability to network,ability to do small talk,
ability to get sponsors to takethem to their next level, and I
was just this scared, fearfulperson that was just trying to
survive in a completelydifferent environment with
(30:13):
nobody here, and it took a lotof time and a lot of work on
self-work to say I choose to notbe that person, I choose to be
somebody different.
And again, it didn't happenovernight.
There is no magic pill.
You have to put in the work,and I have and I continue to do
so.
There are times when I'm in aboardroom with long-term
(30:37):
executives with a lot ofexperience, when I have to go
toe-to-toe with them and I haveto go into the bathroom and do
my affirmations and park myinsecurities and then I go in
and give it all I have.
So it's a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
You do that too.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
It's a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
I do.
Do you do it too?
Yeah, I do.
I go.
I have a hole.
I go into a room and it's likebecause before I go into a room
of people I have to pull on myconfidence suit.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It's like all right we got this.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
It's whatever I need to do and it's different.
Sometimes it's music, sometimesit's washing my face, but
whatever it is, it's reminding.
But I appreciate that you saidthat because I think that so
many people looking at you,you're so smart, confident and
you're saying all this stuffabout negotiation and salary and
it's like I think it's reallyeasy for anyone to feel like
(31:28):
that must just be how you are.
That's not for me, and I thinkit's so important to recognize
that you got here because youclimbed the mountain, you clawed
your way here, you got thebumps and the scrapes and the
bruises and I don't know if yougot your hand chopped off, but
you maybe got a cool bionic handif that happened.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, but like it was then.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Now you find yourself here, and so what I love is
that you devote your life tothis exclusively.
So I'm actually I'd love to formy listeners, because this is
my personal belief.
Everybody, you know this askfor what you're worth, ask for
more than what you're worth,because the company can often
afford to pay you more than whatyou're worth and you are the
gift, you are the value Like.
(32:08):
You don't have to proveyourself right.
So I believe this so strongly.
But I also believe that we areconditioned to believe the exact
opposite.
So Toy Smith has a smalltraining, a short training
called Business Beyond Profit,where she talks about this was
actually it was the video seriesthat changed, it transformed my
(32:29):
entire perspective on business,life, money, everything, and I
just completely switched how Iwas living my life.
But she breaks down thepsychology on the corporate side
and on the industry side.
So you can actually see nowlike the systems, like when you
talk about patriarchy and thoseand the systems.
She actually breaks down thesystem so you can actually see
(32:49):
how oh, this is how it's workingto oppress me specifically.
Right, this is.
I can see how this is happening,and it was through that that I
which is why I started doing thepodcast the way I did, so that
I could just basically getpeople like you into the faces
of everyone who needs it, sothat they can now play the game
(33:10):
on the playing field right Cause, like we don't know the rules,
we're going in into a game thatwe don't know all the rules to.
We know what we want, butthere's a whole hidden book back
there.
So I'd love to know foreveryone listening if, like
somebody let's say, this is fromsomeone running a business who
doesn't charge enough this issomeone who wants to ask for a
raise or a promotion or so on.
Could you tell my listeners alittle bit about how you help
(33:31):
people, how you work with them,what you do and how they can
find you?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, thank you.
So my website isDorothyMashburncom and I focus
on, like you said, the wholestrategy on how to understand
your worth and then ask for itright.
And in that work you learn howto build leverage for yourself,
(33:55):
which is your shifting powerdynamic to yourself.
You get scripts on how to usethe right trigger words.
So a lot of conditioninghappens male, female roles, and
females are supposed to act thisway.
If you raise your voice, you'reseen as aggressive, you're seen
as hysterical, all of that butif you have universal principles
(34:19):
of influence and persuasion.
So these are things that, forexample, social proof right
Doesn't matter how you wereconditioned, what background you
have, what gender you are.
Any of that doesn't matterbecause it touches the emotion
and conditioning of humans, aswe are programmed to be.
So it does not matter all ofthe social.
(34:40):
You can bypass all of that toget to the core of humans and
you learn how to use thoseskills to really make yourself
seen, known and valued, andthese are things that I want
people to have, because there isno reason to live in fear.
There is plenty of abundantresources.
(35:03):
So we need to stop thinkingabout there's only so much and
we have to cower and hideourselves and not be at our full
potential to go lead a happylife, a fulfilled life.
So if you are somebody who wantsto give yourself that gift, so
learn that, and you don't haveto do it with me like, yeah,
(35:25):
mine is a business.
Get investing yourself right.
It's not shameful.
It is actually self-care foryou to be able to do that.
So please, please, think abouthow you are today and where you
wanna be, and there is help outthere.
So if you wanna find me, I'malso on LinkedIn.
I also have a podcast salarynegotiations made simple, and we
(35:48):
talk about more than justsalary there.
We're also talking aboutmindset, confidence, we're
talking about influence andpersuasion and all of the things
that you need to be a happy,fulfilled human.
So find me.
I'm happy to help.
This is my passion.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
And it's so evident I actually was.
So you had the teacher on thepodcast a few days ago, sarah
Collinson.
What I love a lot about thepodcast is that, like I think
that when we talk aboutnegotiation, salary raises,
things like that, they'll soundlike they're very specific, like
I'm gonna need to do it at aspecific time, like it's not
something that you do every day.
But I think that one of thegreat things about your podcast
(36:25):
is that you talk about and youbring us on that they address
the underlying, foundationalissues that give you the
strength to do it when the timecomes.
It's sort of like if you needto like lift a thousand pounds,
then it really helps if you'vebeen lifting weights for the
last year or two to be able toget your strength up instead of
just suddenly picking up thethousand pounds.
This is you preparing for whenthat time comes, you're like I'm
(36:50):
already ready, I have this, andthat's what I really like is
because I think it's so hardwhen we're in the moment to be
like, oh my God, I got a prep,but if you're doing, it just
like tiny habits over the courseof the year.
So I love, love podcasts.
Every time I get your emails andsubscribe to her email list.
The emails are really like.
By the way also, I'm justtotally gushing all over you.
(37:10):
I love how clear the email,like the email.
When I get the email, I knowexactly what the podcast is.
I'm actually gonna change mypodcasting emails to mimic how
you do yours because they're soclear.
So guys, follow Dorothy,download her freebies they're
great and get on her mailinglist because she is going to
help you make more money.
Because here's the thing whenyou start, stop trading time for
(37:33):
money.
Now you can make more money inless time, which gives you more
opportunity to live your life ofjoy, which means you don't have
to say, oh, I gotta work till10.
You can be like, oh, I'm gonnaclock out at noon because I will
have made exactly what I needto buy then and that's so much
confidence.
That's awesome.
Thank you, dorothy.
I'm so grateful for what you do.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Thank you for having me.
This has been great.
You are a psychologist.
I tell you things.
Hey there, I'm Vanessa Konnicki, and this is
Stop Shitting All Over Yourselfa show to remind you that you do
know what you're doing and youare enough exactly as you are.
Each episode, I connect with anincredible human being who has
walked the path that you're on.
It's the path that leaves otherpeople's expectations for who
you're supposed to be and thedecisions that you're supposed
to make by the wayside andreplaces those ideas with a
(00:28):
blueprint for your life that youdesign.
These are stories that willinspire you, and the tactics
that they apply will help you tolay the bricks on the road to a
happier and more joyful you, asalways.
Thank you so much for listeningand, if you're on YouTube, drop
a like or subscribe to get allthe feel good content from
Vanessa TV.
But now let's listen in, as Ihave a conversation with Dorothy
(00:50):
Mashburn, a salary negotiationexpert and someone who is a
consistent inspiration to me interms of how she views and
approaches money.
One of the biggest challengesthat so many of us face is
asking for what we're worthAsking for the raise, making
that argument to say this iswhat I want to make.
The things that hold us backaren't just our own anxieties,
(01:11):
but there are years of systemicideologies piled on top of
employees to keep them in aposition where they ask for less
, which ultimately has thebiggest impact on the bottom
line for the company.
For a lot of corporations,their salary and fringe line
takes up the most of theirbudget.
So if they can keep your costslow, then it works out better
for them.
But how does that help us asemployees in living our most
(01:32):
authentic and joyful lives Whilethe bottom line is getting
bigger?
Are we making enough money toat minimum compensate for the
cost of living or at bestprovide for a healthy, joyful
and fulfilling life?
There is a lot to unpack inthis conversation and I know
that you're going to be asmesmerized as I am by her
brilliant approach.
So let's listen in and you'llbe asking for a raise before you
(01:53):
know it.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Diving in yourself is not selfish.
A lot of people they dreamabout big goals, they think
about big goals, but then, whenit comes to investing in
yourself, they hesitate.
This might be like I'm spendingtoo much money.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Let's dive in on that now, because I'd like to
actually dive into that a littlebit, starting with that in that
, why do you think it is thatpeople?
Because I had that samephilosophy for so many years,
where it's like somebody wouldtell me to hire a coach and I
would spend money on food, I'dspend money on rent, I'd spend
money, I'd even spend money onclothes before I would spend
(02:39):
money on a coach to train me to,and that was in retrospect.
I can see how that hindered mygrowth.
But why do you think I did that?
Where do you think that?
I mean not that I'm asking youmy therapist, but generally
speaking, where does that comefrom?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Part of it, I believe , is social programming.
We are always, especially aswomen as to women or girls, as
we are growing up in a verypatriarchal society, told to
help others, share with others,groom or nurture others, but the
self always takes a back seat.
So when it comes to whetherit's a physical trainer, hiring
(03:17):
somebody, it's like those 200bucks a month or 300 bucks a
month, whatever the number is,or 500 becomes like oh, I'm
going to spend on myself and myfamily may not get X, y and Z,
or my kids don't get X, Y and Z.
And it becomes this narrativeinside our heads where we're
saying it's selfish to spendthat much money on myself.
(03:38):
And sometimes it's not asconscious, it's like quick, you
know like you think about themoney you spend on me, or on
eating out every Friday, andeating out on every Friday wins,
because spending the money onmyself means that I'm depriving
my family of that fund.
So that's, I would say that's abig one.
(03:59):
And then, second, I think thereis a lot of hesitation on not
having the confidence that youwill put in the work, because
coaching is not a magic pill.
It's something like you have toput in the work.
You know somebody can guide youand give you the takeaway, the
noise, so you can really focus.
(04:20):
But then it's also work.
You have to put in the work andnot a lot of people feel that
they can or have the time to dothat.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
You know, I think there's also the you know you
were talking earlier about.
You know the narrative that wehave in our heads, like, if you
like, let's say, you tell me, oh, I just bought myself a massage
right, and now I'm thinking,God, you were a terrible mother,
didn't you tell me that yourdaughter needed cleats right?
Or something like that right.
So there's like that, even ifthe story isn't real right
(04:54):
Because the problem is andhere's what I'm curious about
right Because, like, there's theside of the story that isn't
real right Because I'm notactually saying that to you and
I never would even think that,but in your mind you may write
that story, that somebody isgoing to think that.
But on the other hand, there isthose of us like so you know, I
grew up in Pakistan and myresponsibility was to make sure
(05:16):
that, as I grew up, I did thesethings, and there were people
who would actually say that youwere not being a good sister,
wife, mother, whatever, becauseyou weren't doing these things.
And there's many places in theworld and here's the thing it's
a vert in some places and it'scovert in others, but you will
find it everywhere where peoplewill literally tell you I can't,
(05:36):
I cannot believe you spentmoney on that.
So I'm curious to know do youwork with clients, like when you
, or do you work with people whoactually have the overt stuff,
where people are really tellingthem that they're bad?
And how does that even navigatethat space?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, let me think about that.
So a lot of it I would say 80percent is covert because you
know a lot of people know thatit's in the surface level.
You know that you know wearingthe oxygen mask first before
putting it on your child in theplane in case of emergency
they've heard that right, youtake care of you first and then
(06:14):
take care of your child orwhoever else is depending on you
.
So on the very surface level weknow that it's not selfish.
But then under the layers, alot of it is covert, unconscious
training.
I cannot honestly think aboutanybody who you know.
Where it does become covert Imean overt is at workplaces
(06:39):
where if you are asserting, youknow being say I want to be part
of that project, that's goingto give me a big visibility, you
may be seen as extra aggressiveor being told that you know
you're putting yourself firstbefore your team, so you get shy
.
You know you get shy fromsaying next time raising your
(07:00):
hand and you overgeneralize.
And it's a bit of I guess youknow, thought distortion where
you're overgeneralizing.
Last time I did raise my hand.
You know I got a small scoldingsaying hey, you're putting
yourself and so every singletime afterwards you're going to
say I'm not going to speak upfor myself.
(07:21):
Or I'm not going to say I need$10,000 to go develop myself.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You know, let's actually jump in on that,
because I think that's actuallya really key thing, because we
started off by talking thatinvesting in yourself is
important, right and like, and Ithink that you touched base on
the fact that you have tobelieve that you're worthy of
that investment, that it's notselfish, and actually the truth
is is it is selfish, but that'sokay.
(07:47):
Like, selfish sounds like ajudgy term, but it's like you
know, it's not it's self, it'sactually self less, in that
you're you're, you're, you'rerebuilding, you're building
yourself more for others.
And the reason why I'm going tobring this up in the context of
the workplace is I used to runmy own business many moons ago
(08:09):
and a lot of my clients wouldtrade time for money.
So they'd you know, let's say,you charge $50 an hour for them.
If they needed to make moremoney, it was not raise my
prices, it was work more hours.
People that I've worked with incorporate America they are same
thing.
Whereas you're hourly, it'slike work more hours, right, you
never, really most people don'task for a raise, and so you
(08:33):
know sorry my throat all of asudden.
So when I think of those of usat work right, who are almost
really like giving ourselves avoice and saying, hey, I want to
make X dollars or I want Y,right, oh, did I lose you?
(08:54):
I lost you, vanessa.
Oh, yeah, no, I lost you too.
I was like wait, where did yougo?
Are you there?
Now I'm here, but I can't seeyou.
(09:15):
You can't see me, I can't seeyou.
Hold on, let me turn on yourcamera, let me just see.
Ask to start video and then I'mgoing to stop video and then
start video there we go Allright.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Okay, perfect, all right.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, so okay.
So what I was really actuallygoing we were talking about
raising your hand at work andlike and getting scolded for
that.
Coming back to that, you know,and being conditioned, because I
think the reason why I was soexcited to have you on today is
that this is such a complicatedtopic.
This idea of negotiating salary, asking for what you're worth
(09:55):
and really not shying away fromasking for the funds that you
deserve to be able to live yourlife and I think that so many of
us like that is at the baseline, right.
So if you're not getting paidan adequate amount, then that
literally cascades into everyother part of your life.
(10:15):
Then I go into a meeting with myboss where I know this right.
So I know that I need an extra50,000, or I know I need to
shoot 5,000 or whatever it isthat I know that I need, like I
know this, that this is thedollar amount that I need for me
to be able to live my best lifeand have everything right.
And I'm sitting in that room.
I will, and I have in the past.
You know I've obviously gonethrough a lot of coaching to
(10:36):
work my way through this, butthe default position is still
there that when the conversationbegins, I don't even feel
worthy of investing my voice tomyself.
So when they say oh well, whatdo you want?
I will cut my rate down 50%before I've even opened my mouth
, right and like.
But walking in there, I had thenumber, I'm ready.
I got the thing, and you sitdown and there's like oh no,
(10:59):
I'll take whatever you give me,thank you.
So can you tell me a little bitabout like?
Like, because now you're almostshooting yourself in the foot
because that's the oxygen mask,right, that's the mask that's
going to keep you alive andgoing, so that your whole family
can be happy, and now you canhave cleats and also go get a
massage.
What?
What happens to us in thatmoment and what can we do in
(11:20):
that moment to navigate thatsituation?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, that's a really small question.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I just asked very small.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, how many hours you have.
You know, I think the thecouple of things is we have
learned fear to adjust ourselves, to make ourselves smaller
because of fear.
So a lot of it.
I think of fear as gravityright.
So a lot of society is based on, you know, just like gravity
(11:47):
keeps the planets in place,society is built so that
everybody knows their place andeverybody's acting in a way that
helps the larger society.
So, you know, fear is thatpower or energy that keeps us
all in our spots.
And so when an individual triesto, you know, like especially a
(12:09):
female or who's been raisedfemale with female conditioning,
you know they are thinking if Iraise my voice, if I say, if I
make myself bigger, I fear thatI'm going to get rejected,
because that's what we've beentrained to do, you know.
So you're literally trying totake off away from gravity.
You know, get into outer space,and so you're fighting years
(12:33):
and years of societalconditioning and programming,
because that's what society wasbuilt to do, you know.
And so that's why when, Ibelieve, when you're raising
your voice, you're literallytrying to, you know, get rid of
gravity, go out into outer space, and that's a lot of, you know,
counterweights that you'retrying to fight against.
(12:55):
And that's what's happening,and you're making yourself
smaller, so you're not seen as athreat.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
That's exactly how it feels.
That is like literally how itfeels, cause you feel like
you're being pulled in thedirection of what you know is
right, versus what you'resupposed to do.
And then, but then there's thatnext level, right.
So you know, if I so let's say,I do find my voice in that
moment and I say this is what Iwant, right.
And so there was actually mywife, years ago, was negotiating
(13:25):
for her salary and the numberthat, like she was, she's a big
fan of anchoring right.
So she goes in to the and I hadno idea.
I watched this happen and I waslike I don't understand what
just happened, like I reallydon't understand what just
happened.
She's on a call with her bossand her boss is like you know,
what do you want for?
You know salary.
And so she gives the number andher boss starts laughing at her
(13:47):
, like literally just laughing,like this is the most ridiculous
request ever.
And my wife was like completelyunfazed, like totally unfazed,
and I'm sitting there going likeoh my God, like I'm panicking,
like what's happening, and shegets off the call.
And I said, and I asked her, Iwas like, oh my God, that didn't
go well, she goes.
Oh, it went perfect.
And I was like what?
And she's like listen, firstthings first.
(14:07):
She's like I said the highernumber.
Now, whatever number, low ballnumber they were going to give
me, they have now been anchoredat a higher number.
So I'm going to get a highernumber no matter what.
Yes, yes Two.
I'm not going to get thatnumber, but I'm going to get a
higher number no matter what.
And so her dismissal of thatrejection was like I didn't even
know, that was a thing I didn'tknow.
You could just reject that.
(14:28):
Like I'm curious to know how.
Like, first of all, if my wifewas your client, what would you
say?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And second, I would give her a trophy you don't need
any services.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
You're good, you're good, I know.
Right, she taught like it'samazing.
But you know, and so I'mcurious, though, how do you deal
with that on the other side?
Like so now I'm your, I'm yourclient and I'm telling you these
are my problems.
And you're like yeah, I'm goingto help you, you give me the
language and the scripts, but myboss is not going to go with
the script that I.
You know they're going to havetheir own shit to say about it.
And how do you deal with thatresistance?
Like, what are your thoughts onwhere that resistance comes
(14:59):
from and how to, how to, how tonavigate that?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean so when, when you're negotiating,
it's more than just that one anddone conversation, right?
So, first of all, anchoringabsolutely works, you know.
So think about, like, if you'regoing to target and you see a
pair of shoes for like $35 andyou're like I don't know if I
want to spend $35.
I'm going to go on the salerack and buy something for $20.
(15:24):
So 35 in that instance is a bignumber for you.
But when you go to, say, a newbalance or Nike store you know
this maybe the shoes are 150 andthey're discounted at $100.
And you're like, wow, that's agreat deal, I'm going to buy
this pair of shoes at $100,right?
So that's what's happening inour brain.
When you're anchoring at abigger number, anything, you
(15:45):
know, you don't go from $150 tosay $20.
You're happy with the $100.
So that's what anchoring is allabout and that's what,
psychologically, your wife didwith her boss.
So kudos to her.
But negotiation, to my earlierpoint, is more than just that
one conversation.
So if you truly believe thatyou're worth $150, you're going
(16:06):
to create what we call leveragein your negotiation by adding
another factor, which could be ajob in a different department
or a job in a different industryor even an entrepreneurial
option.
So I have one client who went insaying that you know, hey, you
know, I've been with thiscompany for eight plus years and
(16:26):
I've only seen incremental 3%growth and I've been antsy.
I want to do more.
I can give more, but I want toalso see a pay increase.
And what I've started doing onthe weekends and I really enjoy,
is entrepreneurial things.
Like you know, she makes beadednecklaces and they were taking
off in Etsy and it's like I'mthinking about getting a small
(16:48):
business loan and doing thisfull time because this job and
the money is just not worth it.
And that immediately got areaction from her current
company because they know thatthey valued her.
And so this what we call aBATNA best alternative to a
negotiated agreement basicallymeans she has an option B and
when she has an option B, thenshe starts getting the attention
(17:10):
that she needed and they, youknow, gave her a promotion, went
to a senior analyst and gaveher a $50,000 raise.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
You know that's freaking amazing so that's what
you know.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
So negotiating is more than a conversation, and
you have a whole strategy behindit, and that's how you leverage
to get to the next rung.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You know there's a couple of things you said there.
The first is is fucking amazing.
That's just to start with that.
That's amazing, but I think youknow.
The second thing is is, youknow, she let's talk about that
dynamic going into the officewhere she comes in and says you
know, I've been making thesebeaded necklaces and they're
doing really well, and so she'shaving a conversation with her
(17:53):
boss.
Like, initially, theconversation is a power dynamic,
where the boss is I have themoney, I have the job, I have
the power, I have everything andyou are a supplicant coming to
me requesting these things.
And I think that's actually oneof the bigger challenges that I
think I and I don't know whatto do about it.
But energetically, that's whatI feel happens in these
conversations is that there is apresumption that you're lucky
(18:14):
that you have a job here andwe've all been conditioned in
that way that, like and I hearpeople say it all the time I
should just be lucky to have ajob.
It's like no, and so the waythat I've started to think about
it and I don't you'll have tolike, help me with this, because
it's new thoughts for me ismore like I am an expert in.
I'm a research, administrativeexpert and this one of the
things I'm an expert at and Irent my time to the company that
(18:37):
is, and you're not buying my,you don't get to control me, but
I feel like that I'm lucky tohave a job idea, coupled with
almost like this philosophy thatyour job is your identity.
Do you feel like like, do youfeel like a lot of people go in
without having, like you said,that option be, and not having
(18:57):
that option be almost makes itfeel like this is my only option
, like almost this is like allor nothing, and I will literally
not be able to feed my familyif I don't have this, and like
that now creates a, like yousaid that, fearful conversation.
I'm walking in just hoping Idon't lose my job.
Yeah, your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yep, absolutely, and that's why it's a whole strategy
, right?
So, yeah, if you go in and youhit the nail on the head when
you said power dynamic, right.
So you, what you're doing witha option be is creating your,
shifting the power, powerdynamic to you, because now they
need you more than you needthem, and that's why the option
(19:35):
be has to be a realistic optionthat you can execute if things
go south.
So first, two things that Iwill say.
You know, when you ask for moremoney, always remember that you
will not lose your job.
You know, of course, if you, ifyou come in all entitled and
act unprofessional, you will.
But if you simply ask for araise or ask to be considered
(19:57):
for a promotion, there's,there's no reason any reasonable
person is going to say you'reterminated.
So take that fear out of yourmind, right?
So that's one thing.
And then, second is BarbaraStanny has a great book called.
She works a lot of about underour nurse and what she talks
about is people.
We people who are fearful tendto also martyr ourselves saying
(20:21):
that, oh, you know, I, like youknow, I'm not in it for the
money, or, you know, I'm justhappy to have a job because it
fulfills me and so why would Igo anywhere elsewhere?
So these are all selfsabotaging type.
You know it's narratives in ourbrain, so we've got to be very
cognizant about that.
And if, if we catch ourselves,then we've got to like write
(20:45):
things down.
So again, it's a whole strategy.
You have to understand yourself.
And then also, before you doanything else, you've got to
like self correct all of theconditioning, all of the fear
before you even execute anoption, be before you even go,
have that conversation.
And but if you do have thatconversation, it's like you know
(21:06):
in Star Wars, right when Lukegoes over and fights with Darth
Vader before he's ready and youknow he gets his hand chopped
off.
There's like, yeah, it canhappen for you, but it's going
to be painful and it's going tolike get make you gunshot for
the next one because it's goingto be.
You may get like an incrementalyou know 5%, 10% but you also
get a lot of scars because youwent in unprepared.
(21:28):
But if you go in prepared, thenyou are set for life, like if
you have a whole strategy thatmakes sense, that gets the power
back in your court versusgiving them the power, then you
have truly set yourself up forsuccess.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
You know.
I so agree on the on all of it,like especially the preparation
part, because I think, like toooften, we go into these
situations blind and we makeassumptions about what we think
is happening and we'll oftenassume to our detriment, right
going back to the point where wemight have to murder ourselves.
I laughed when you said thatbecause I saw myself in that
right, like it's oh no, no, Ijust did like and I've got a
(22:05):
different relationship withmoney now, but like it took a
long time, lots of coaching,lots of therapy, and it's going
to sound, I guess, maybe soundweird, but it's, I guess it's
kind of the way it is.
Right is that a lot of thisstuff is like therapy stuff,
right, is like conditioning,stuff is like belief and self
worth.
Because if I go into a meetingor an interview where I'm
(22:27):
feeling confident, right, andI'm confident about my skills,
I'm confident about my value,I'm confident about my option B,
I'm just, I'm confident ingeneral and I'm confident that
we're partners like I'm, thatI'm talking to someone who's a
partner, then we're going tohave a very different type of
conversation.
Then, if I go in with you, aremy boss who controls all the
power, like just the tone ofvoice that I use.
(22:48):
Yeah, yeah, different, you knowyep, yeah, and that's and that's
tough and I so I think that oneof the things that really
turned me on a lot about how Ifound you I can't remember, so
just that everybody knows Ifound you, so I basically got on
.
I saw your on LinkedIn and yoursalary negotiation the fact
that you work specifically andexclusively in knowing your
worth, negotiation these keycritical areas I like the
(23:13):
greatest person on the wholeplanet, because so many of the
people that I work with you knowall of my audience and
listeners have.
They have had some sort ofchronic illness or they're
caregivers for people who havechronic illness.
These are people who are reallydexterous, intelligent,
creative, but because of thenature of our, our life
(23:35):
framework, we struggle withhaving a voice for ourselves,
and so we'll take the penniesand the and it's what's funny is
like for all the people around,including myself.
I see that we're worth diamonds, but that we're willing to
settle for just oh, my God, isthat dust.
Thank you so much for thelittle bit of dust that you just
gave me, and I think my worldreally started to change when I
(23:57):
had the scripts and theconfidence and then everything
else came after that because,like, at some point I realized
that what I had been doingwasn't working.
So I've been trying to do thingsa different way for a really
long time and I'm like it's notworking.
And so I what I did was I tookwhat you said just now and I
just believed it and and my soulwas like you're full of shit.
And I'm like, no, I believethis Right.
(24:18):
But like it, I had to pretend,and I remember the reason why I
bring up the voice is because Iremember going into a call where
I had to play with my voicebeforehand so that it didn't
sound tight and, like you know,like almost victimized, versus
like hey, we're here talking,we're friends, we've
collectively got something thatwe're sharing together.
I noticed on your website thatthat's something that you help
(24:41):
with in that, and so I wanted totouch on that because I didn't
believe it First.
I had the script Right, so Iwas like I don't really believe
it, but I'm going to pretendthat I'm going to script, I'm
going to use a script.
So can you share a little bitabout how you feel like having
these like?
How do these scripts helppeople when they're like,
because like somebody who rightnow is struggling with asking
for raises and going to tomorrow, suddenly be like I'm ready to
(25:01):
ask for a raise?
Yeah, so how do you use scriptsor how do you, how do you feel
like those help your clients andpeople in getting where they're
worth?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah, yeah, you know, one of the things that I want
to elaborate on.
What you actually touched on isas a as an expert in your field
, as a subject matter expert,you have all of the power, right
.
But you're going in thinkingabout the old fashion sort of
employer employee relationship.
You know you have to loveyourself as, as you mentioned,
(25:30):
as a free agent.
You know you have servicesyou're going to offer them at a
certain cost and they need yourservices and they're going to
pay you for it, so, so that'sone thing to really start
thinking about.
You know, like, if you're aworld class athlete, right,
you're not going to go in saying, oh yeah, you know, I'm just
happy working 40 hours.
You know you're going to talkabout millions, right, and
(25:51):
they're going to pay you becauseyou're going to earn them
something.
So you have to reframe in yourmind that whole dynamic that
we've been taught or conditionedto think about.
Now to your question about youknow, how you know, how do you
overnight change?
So our brains, you know andthere's neuroscience behind it
(26:12):
you know, what we say toourselves has a huge amount of
impact on what we believe.
So our brain doesn'tnecessarily can tell whether you
know, if you tell your brainyou know you you don't deserve
it, you know your your crap andyou, etc.
Etc.
Your brain's going to believethat.
But if you tell your brain thatyou know you're awesome, your
(26:33):
influential, your charismatic,you can, you can do anything,
your brain's going to believethat.
So it's really important thatself talk to ourselves.
And again, the book that I wouldrecommend for your listeners is
called chatter and, and the andthe research scientist who's
written that book goes into alot of details about self talk
and how that conditions andprimes are mine to have or not
(26:57):
have confidence.
And so self talk is reallyimportant and there are
different tricks and that youcan use.
One could be one easy one couldbe every day in your journal.
Write down I'm influential andconfident, and in 30 days you'll
feel more influential andconfident, you know.
So these are ways to trick yourbrain to start being what you
(27:19):
want that your brain to be.
You know.
And if you want to want it tobe weak and, you know, not
confident, you can continue whatyou've been telling yourself.
It'll believe it.
But if you wanted to change,then make, make.
Make one small step and it'sgoing to make all the difference
.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Amen.
Thank you for thatrecommendation, because that is
like it's a self talk.
I agree.
So much it.
It changed every.
It changes everything.
I just had this conversationwith my sister and you know
she's been going through her ownjourney and we were at the
phase where the space where Isaid, okay, I'm going to
challenge you, the samechallenge my therapist gave me
like I've.
You know it's a classicchallenge, everybody's got to do
(27:58):
it which is I challenge you toflip the script and for one week
, anytime you say I suck, sayI'm amazing, anytime you just
like flip it for one week andjust see what happens.
and if the world doesn't explode, then why not just keep going?
Yeah, yeah, and it makes adifference, like it really does.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, I mean all of our, all of
our cliches, right like, flipthe script.
They mean something becauseit's work, right, it's work for
hundreds of years.
But maybe we need to hear it ina different way.
Maybe some of our listenerswant to think about, you know,
is there actually neuroscience?
And let me tell you, there isactually science behind this
where, you know, the chatter inour brain actually can be
(28:37):
extremely powerful if we let it,by just unleashing the power
that we have, by saying the goodthings, saying the confident
things to ourselves, and we canbecome truly unstoppable if we,
if we let it.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
My grandmother used to always say all these things
right and so many things, and Iwould say, wow, this is just
old-fashioned village wisdom andI remember poo-pooing on it
constantly and I now mygrandfather as well, and now,
with all the neuroscience stuffthat you're talking about, I'm
reading this stuff and I'm likethey were right all along and
(29:11):
sometimes I say to myself, whydidn't anybody think to tell me
these things?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
And it's like no, you know what they did try to tell
me I just wasn't and you werejust not ready to take it.
Right, I wasn't ready to takeit.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, I'm curious were you ever in a like when you
did you spring fully forth fromthe womb with this confidence,
or did you grow into thisconfidence?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I had to grow into it .
There was a lot of falling alot of.
So I'm an immigrant, so I'mfrom a small province in the
Himalayas and when I first cameto the United States about 20
years ago, I was extremelynervous.
There was no social support.
I didn't have any sponsors andmentors, things.
(29:51):
I looked around and my peerswere light years ahead of me as
far as ability to network,ability to do small talk,
ability to get sponsors to takethem to their next level, and I
was just this scared, fearfulperson that was just trying to
survive in a completelydifferent environment with
(30:13):
nobody here, and it took a lotof time and a lot of work on
self-work to say I choose to notbe that person, I choose to be
somebody different.
And again, it didn't happenovernight.
There is no magic pill.
You have to put in the work,and I have and I continue to do
so.
There are times when I'm in aboardroom with long-term
(30:37):
executives with a lot ofexperience, when I have to go
toe-to-toe with them and I haveto go into the bathroom and do
my affirmations and park myinsecurities and then I go in
and give it all I have.
So it's a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
You do that too.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
It's a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
I do.
Do you do it too?
Yeah, I do.
I go.
I have a hole.
I go into a room and it's likebecause before I go into a room
of people I have to pull on myconfidence suit.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It's like all right we got this.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
It's whatever I need to do and it's different.
Sometimes it's music, sometimesit's washing my face, but
whatever it is, it's reminding.
But I appreciate that you saidthat because I think that so
many people looking at you,you're so smart, confident and
you're saying all this stuffabout negotiation and salary and
it's like I think it's reallyeasy for anyone to feel like
(31:28):
that must just be how you are.
That's not for me, and I thinkit's so important to recognize
that you got here because youclimbed the mountain, you clawed
your way here, you got thebumps and the scrapes and the
bruises and I don't know if yougot your hand chopped off, but
you maybe got a cool bionic handif that happened.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, but like it was then.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Now you find yourself here, and so what I love is
that you devote your life tothis exclusively.
So I'm actually I'd love to formy listeners, because this is
my personal belief.
Everybody, you know this askfor what you're worth, ask for
more than what you're worth,because the company can often
afford to pay you more than whatyou're worth and you are the
gift, you are the value Like.
(32:08):
You don't have to proveyourself right.
So I believe this so strongly.
But I also believe that we areconditioned to believe the exact
opposite.
So Toy Smith has a smalltraining, a short training
called Business Beyond Profit,where she talks about this was
actually it was the video seriesthat changed, it transformed my
(32:29):
entire perspective on business,life, money, everything, and I
just completely switched how Iwas living my life.
But she breaks down thepsychology on the corporate side
and on the industry side.
So you can actually see nowlike the systems, like when you
talk about patriarchy and thoseand the systems.
She actually breaks down thesystem so you can actually see
(32:49):
how oh, this is how it's workingto oppress me specifically.
Right, this is.
I can see how this is happening,and it was through that that I
which is why I started doing thepodcast the way I did, so that
I could just basically getpeople like you into the faces
of everyone who needs it, sothat they can now play the game
(33:10):
on the playing field right Cause, like we don't know the rules,
we're going in into a game thatwe don't know all the rules to.
We know what we want, butthere's a whole hidden book back
there.
So I'd love to know foreveryone listening if, like
somebody let's say, this is fromsomeone running a business who
doesn't charge enough this issomeone who wants to ask for a
raise or a promotion or so on.
Could you tell my listeners alittle bit about how you help
(33:31):
people, how you work with them,what you do and how they can
find you?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, thank you.
So my website isDorothyMashburncom and I focus
on, like you said, the wholestrategy on how to understand
your worth and then ask for itright.
And in that work you learn howto build leverage for yourself,
(33:55):
which is your shifting powerdynamic to yourself.
You get scripts on how to usethe right trigger words.
So a lot of conditioninghappens male, female roles, and
females are supposed to act thisway.
If you raise your voice, you'reseen as aggressive, you're seen
as hysterical, all of that butif you have universal principles
(34:19):
of influence and persuasion.
So these are things that, forexample, social proof right
Doesn't matter how you wereconditioned, what background you
have, what gender you are.
Any of that doesn't matterbecause it touches the emotion
and conditioning of humans, aswe are programmed to be.
So it does not matter all ofthe social.
(34:40):
You can bypass all of that toget to the core of humans and
you learn how to use thoseskills to really make yourself
seen, known and valued, andthese are things that I want
people to have, because there isno reason to live in fear.
There is plenty of abundantresources.
(35:03):
So we need to stop thinkingabout there's only so much and
we have to cower and hideourselves and not be at our full
potential to go lead a happylife, a fulfilled life.
So if you are somebody who wantsto give yourself that gift, so
learn that, and you don't haveto do it with me like, yeah,
(35:25):
mine is a business.
Get investing yourself right.
It's not shameful.
It is actually self-care foryou to be able to do that.
So please, please, think abouthow you are today and where you
wanna be, and there is help outthere.
So if you wanna find me, I'malso on LinkedIn.
I also have a podcast salarynegotiations made simple, and we
(35:48):
talk about more than justsalary there.
We're also talking aboutmindset, confidence, we're
talking about influence andpersuasion and all of the things
that you need to be a happy,fulfilled human.
So find me.
I'm happy to help.
This is my passion.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
And it's so evident I actually was.
So you had the teacher on thepodcast a few days ago, sarah
Collinson.
What I love a lot about thepodcast is that, like I think
that when we talk aboutnegotiation, salary raises,
things like that, they'll soundlike they're very specific, like
I'm gonna need to do it at aspecific time, like it's not
something that you do every day.
But I think that one of thegreat things about your podcast
(36:25):
is that you talk about and youbring us on that they address
the underlying, foundationalissues that give you the
strength to do it when the timecomes.
It's sort of like if you needto like lift a thousand pounds,
then it really helps if you'vebeen lifting weights for the
last year or two to be able toget your strength up instead of
just suddenly picking up thethousand pounds.
This is you preparing for whenthat time comes, you're like I'm
(36:50):
already ready, I have this, andthat's what I really like is
because I think it's so hardwhen we're in the moment to be
like, oh my God, I got a prep,but if you're doing, it just
like tiny habits over the courseof the year.
So I love, love podcasts.
Every time I get your emails andsubscribe to her email list.
The emails are really like.
By the way also, I'm justtotally gushing all over you.
(37:10):
I love how clear the email,like the email.
When I get the email, I knowexactly what the podcast is.
I'm actually gonna change mypodcasting emails to mimic how
you do yours because they're soclear.
So guys, follow Dorothy,download her freebies they're
great and get on her mailinglist because she is going to
help you make more money.
Because here's the thing whenyou start, stop trading time for
(37:33):
money.
Now you can make more money inless time, which gives you more
opportunity to live your life ofjoy, which means you don't have
to say, oh, I gotta work till10.
You can be like, oh, I'm gonnaclock out at noon because I will
have made exactly what I needto buy then and that's so much
confidence.
That's awesome.
Thank you, dorothy.
I'm so grateful for what you do.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Thank you for having me.
This has been great.
You are a psychologist.
I tell you things.
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