March 16, 2024 • 42 mins
Have you ever felt the weight of a 'suit-and-tie' expectation on your shoulders? Dr. Sheva Guy joins me to unravel the tightly stitched seams of traditional professionalism, revealing how this standard can serve as a tool of oppression, perpetuating systemic barriers like racism and classism. As we share our personal narratives – her journey through the expectations of an Eastern European Jewish family to a champion of diversity and inclusion, and our candid discussion of mental health challenges – we lay bare the profound impact of these standards on those who dare to deviate from the norm.
The invisible walls within corporate hallways don't just define spaces; they often delineate who belongs and who does not. This episode peels back those layers, highlighting the importance of amplifying the often overlooked voices in change management, from Oracle implementations to higher education consulting. We tackle the perils of tokenism and the critical need for true inclusivity, where diversity isn't just present but is actively valued and engaged. As we recount tales of tattoos as symbols of defiance and academia as a haven for authentic self-expression, we underscore the importance of challenging stifling professional identities.
As we navigate the transformative currents of change management, our discussion turns to the paradox of organizations that profess a love for change yet resist it when it knocks on their door. Drawing parallels between parenting strategies and fostering agency in professional transformations, we advocate for understanding the 'why' behind change to mitigate natural resistance. And just as a free-flowing conversation can lead to unexpected depths, so too does our dialogue wander through topics like research administration, emphasizing the organic power of authenticity, and the potential for collaborative growth in our professional journeys with Dr. Sheva Guy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Minessa Konecky (00:10):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Stop Shitting
All Over Yourself podcast.
Today I am here with Dr ShevaGuy.
Sheva Guy (00:19):
Sheva.
Minessa Konecky (00:20):
Guy, sheva Guy.
Thank you, sheva Guy.
I should have asked thatquestion beforehand.
This is actually the first timethat we are meeting in person
and Sheva is amazing.
I met her because she invitedme to.
I saw a post of yours onLinkedIn and then I saw that you
ran a group called this Is whatProfessionals Look Like, and I
(00:43):
loved it, absolutely loved thatgroup Fabulous, and I joined it
and then invited everyone I knowto join it.
So I welcome, welcome, sheva.
How?
Sheva Guy (00:51):
are you doing today?
I am good, so the group isactually hashtag Inked.
In, so it is Inked In.
Oh, okay, inked In.
Yes, inked In.
So people ask me a lot.
They are like is that missBelle?
And I am like no, it is InkedIn, love it, love it.
Inked On LinkedIn.
Yeah, thank you so much forhaving me.
Minessa Konecky (01:08):
Fabulous.
So I am curious.
So first of all, I would lovefor people to get to know a
little bit about you.
So let me tell you a little bitabout my framework and how I
approached the world just to, sowe can sort of set the stage a
little.
I am autistic, neurodivergentPakistani.
I moved here when I was 22years old, had a little bit of
(01:29):
culture shock, and I amchronically ill, and it
struggled a lot with maintainingmy energy and health levels,
and so that is the frameworkfrom which sort of like I have
to live my life in terms ofgoing to work and getting up
every day and so on and so forth.
I would love for you to sharesome of that as well with our
listeners.
Sheva Guy (01:47):
Yeah, absolutely so my framework.
So I've generalized anxietydisorder, probably like the
first thing that I knew was athing for me.
Also, I'm diagnosed with OCD,so I've got GAD.
I say GAD, OCD, ADHD, PhD,because I've got all the things.
So I just had the.
Minessa Konecky (02:05):
PhD.
I'm going to go get a PhD.
Sheva Guy (02:09):
Yeah, so I was diagnosed with generalized
anxiety disorder and obsessivecompulsive disorder when I was
younger I guess in my early 20sprobably and I always thought
like there's something elsegoing on here.
And once I finally got myanxiety in check, I got
diagnosed with ADHD and I waslike, oh my gosh, this is the
missing piece that I've beendealing with my entire life.
(02:32):
And then also and this might bea trigger warning for some, but
I also am recovering from aneating disorder, and that's
something that I do talk about alot in terms of shedding light
on, like what professional meansand why I am inked and what is
professional really reallyshould be.
So all of those things are whatI bring to the table.
Minessa Konecky (02:55):
Yeah, I'm actually really curious because
I would love to hear yourperspective on this.
Like what is professional?
And I'm curious to know, likenot how you see it right now,
but like what?
When people say that'sunprofessional, like what do
they actually mean?
Sheva Guy (03:12):
Yeah.
So first of all, since theysaid I'm a lot of cuss, fuck
professionalism, fuckprofessionalism, fuck all of it.
Because it is this, it's thisword like it is this word that
nobody really knows what itmeans.
It's so subjective in a way,but it's also so very clearly
(03:32):
rooted in white supremacy.
When I say rooted in whitesupremacy, I mean rooted in
racism, classism, sexism, thepatriarchy, gender on
normativity, all of it.
Because when we think aboutprofessionalism and the roots of
professionalism and myperspective is in the United
States, I've been in the Midwest, I've been in San Diego, I've
been here my whole life and whenwe think about the workplace
(03:57):
and are the traditionalprofessional business workplace,
very suit and tie, buttoned up,and who's allowed to wear the
suit and ties, who's the one youknow, who's in the corner
office?
It's the white guys with theties right, and so that's kind
of what I see.
When I hear professional, I'mlike that's what people see,
(04:17):
right, and I've gotten I meanI've gotten in trouble for
looking unprofessional andspeaking unprofessional.
And I think professionalismit's not just, it's a lot, it
encompasses a lot of differentthings.
It's the way we dress, it's howwe present ourselves, it's how
we speak, and all of that is100% rooted in all in white
(04:42):
supremacy again, racism,classism, sexism, all of that is
where that kind of conceptcomes from.
It's that expectation to formto the white male ideal and if
you don't, and the purpose of itis, so we can like, so we can
be held, so they can have powerover us.
It's like it's an oppressivesystem, right?
(05:05):
So that's how I see it.
Minessa Konecky (05:07):
When I hear the word professionalism, or
professional in the traditionalsense, I guess yeah, it's so
interesting because I think that, like if you were to ask
somebody and say, okay, whattell me about you know, saying
you're not professional, and yousay, okay, what is
professionalism?
They'll say things like well,you know, you have to talk a
certain way, dress a certain way.
And what's interesting is thatthere's like a you made a post
(05:29):
on LinkedIn the other day thatI'm going to show the link with
in the show notes that itbasically showed the iceberg of
racism or where, like there waslike the top part, which is like
the socially unacceptable partsof white supremacy, and then
there's like so many things sortof under there.
I almost feel like, if you usethe iceberg analogy, there's the
(05:50):
description of what isprofessional that goes at the
top, where it's like you knowthe suit and tie and the way you
talk, and so on and so forth.
And then, underneath the iceberg, what I think a lot of people
don't necessarily realize isthat, in order to say, have a
suit and a tie, you have to haveaccess, you have to have and
like, and not necessarily justaccess to a suit and a tie,
(06:12):
because then it becomes wheredid you get your suit and your
tie from right which you knowbecause, like it's, there's
always another level ofsomething that you have to get
to to be able to achieve thelevel of professionalism.
It's like if you look atsomebody who is at like the VP,
you know president level, youknow who is buying $10,000 suits
, right?
That's sort of like the quoteunquote professional ideal,
(06:34):
right?
Well, if I'm buying my suitfrom Phylene's basement, I may
still be wearing a suit, but isit suity enough?
Sheva Guy (06:41):
You know it's a good point, Like professional enough,
like it still has those levelsAbsolutely.
Minessa Konecky (06:47):
And I hadn't thought of that until you said
that and I started to thinkabout it.
I was like you know what I waslike?
I'm starting to get a feelingabout my 20 year old self here,
because I remember buying myfirst suit from Phylene's
basement and it didn't fit rightBecause and so I had to like,
oh my God, I felt so awkward andit was absolutely ridiculous.
So, okay.
So I'm curious Now, when youfirst moved into the
(07:07):
professional like a professionalenvironment from school and you
have a, you teach your teacher,you're a teacher and a
consultant.
Sheva Guy (07:13):
So, yeah, so I am a full-time consultant, but then I
also I also teach.
Yeah, my background is inhigher education, so I still say
that I'm fairly new toconsulting.
I've been in management,consulting operations,
consulting change management, inthe change management realm for
like a year and a half now, soI still like my core.
I'm like I feel like I stillcame from higher ed.
Minessa Konecky (07:33):
Now did you struggle, Like, how did it when
you were trying it when well,first of all, were you inked up
when you first started in yourcareer?
Or did that like I mean,obviously we eventually all gain
our tattoos over time Right,like, how inked, how visibly
inked up were you when youstarted?
Sheva Guy (07:47):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So that's, that's another thing, Like I'm so getting into this
corporate speak thing.
That's a great question.
Minessa Konecky (07:53):
It's such I can't get it out.
This is a great question,vanessa.
Sheva Guy (07:55):
Thank you, I can't get it out of my fucking mouth.
I can't like there's thesethings and I do have this.
I have a series corporate wordyWednesdays where I make fun of
these phrases that I hear allthe time in the corporate world
Love it.
Minessa Konecky (08:08):
And yeah, so you can't be corporate now
because, Okay, awesome, I don'tknow, sometimes it just slips.
Sheva Guy (08:13):
It just slips out.
I'm like where did that comefrom?
What does that mean?
I'm like it's the devil on myshoulder from corporate.
So I'm like, say that's a greatquestion, say cadence, okay.
So so when I first started, somy journey is like a little bit
different into the working worldbecause I, I got, I got my PhD.
(08:36):
So I was in school for a verylong time, right Like I was in
grad school and I, to be quitehonestly, like I was told
growing up, like you know, I wasraised in an Eastern European
Jewish household and it was youeither be a doctor or you're a
lawyer.
Dr lawyer, accountant, dr lawyer.
No, that's what.
(08:56):
I don't think that was anoption.
It was doctor or lawyer.
It was doctor or lawyer, maybe.
Maybe that has changed.
I'm estranged from my parentsso I haven't had a conversation
with them about how that.
I know this is like a totalside conversation and I know
we're riffing and I love that,but the amount of people that
are like I don't care for yourfamily, you're toxic and I'm
(09:17):
done, is just beautiful.
Minessa Konecky (09:18):
It just so beautiful.
It really is so much, so much.
It is okay to ditch your family.
Sheva Guy (09:23):
Yes, people always say, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm like
so great, my life is better, mylife is better.
Yeah, so I was.
So it was like doctor or lawyer, and so I always, like, had
that perception of like I haveto get this higher degree.
And you know, I went through.
I changed my major 3,000 times,as one does.
(09:43):
I was in psychology, I was insubstance abuse counseling.
I had did a stint in criminaljustice for a hot minute because
I was like, very like, I'mgoing to reform everything and I
I mean, I was like 20.
So, so I ended up in a doctoralprogram.
It was an educational,community-based action, research
doctoral program.
(10:03):
I still had no idea what Iwanted to do, but I was like I'm
just going to stay in schooluntil I figure it out.
That's where I entered into therealm of participatory work and
diversity and inclusion and Ifell into that.
So I've always had.
So when I've got my firsttattoo which one was it?
It was this one.
(10:24):
It's so basic.
I randomly got it one day.
I basically started gettingtattoos as I made progress in my
degree.
So I was like, okay, I finishedmy first year, let's get a
tattoo.
I finished my literature review.
Let's get a tattoo.
I finished my comprehensiveexams let's get a tattoo.
(10:46):
So I was doing it at theselittle rewards.
It was kind of like spatteredhere and there.
It wasn't very at first.
When I first started gettingthem, I thought they need to be
places where I can cover them up, because I remember running on
my nose pierced and I was stilltalking to my parents.
They were like you're nevergoing to get a job.
I was like, oh no, no, we'regoing to get a job.
No one will hire you.
(11:06):
No one will hire you, no onewill hire you.
So that was always in my head.
I was like no one will hire you, no one will hire you.
You can get a job at a tattooshop and that's it.
I'm like that actually soundsfucking dope, but I'm not
artistic enough to do that.
So, yeah, I was getting thesetattoos in places where I was
like I can easily cover this up.
I can easily cover this up.
I remember before I had any ofmy tattoos and I was in my
(11:27):
master's program, I started themwhen I was in my doctorate.
I had my nose pierced and I wasinterning.
It was actually really cool.
It was a prison, but it was arehabilitation facility as well.
I worked with women and it wasa really cool place to be.
But I remember I still put alittle bandaid on my nose ring.
(11:48):
I felt like I had to.
I looked like a fucking idiotbut I had no idea I was 19,.
Like sticking a little bandaid,so yeah, so that was the whole
thing.
So I always felt like I can dothese things, but I have to
cover it up.
They have to be in places whereI can cover it up.
So when I landed my first job Imean it was in higher head Like
it's different in higher ed it's, you know, we are burnt out,
(12:11):
we're tired, we work long hours,but also like no one gives a
fuck what you look like, andthat's pretty cool.
Like I do if I say this likeand I love my job, I do love my
job right now, but if they wouldpay me what I'm making right
now, I would go back to highered in a heartbeat.
They never will, but I justlove that culture.
I felt like I never had amoment in that life when I
(12:35):
worked in higher ed that Ithought I couldn't be 100% who I
am.
That's amazing.
My honestly, like my, my momtravels.
Like what are they going to do?
Fire me, because they can't.
Like it's almost impossible.
I wasn't even faculty and it'sstill like impossible.
Because if you're faculty, it'simpossible, and that's the
thing is.
Like it wasn't, like I wasdoing anything wrong, like I was
, I'm really good at what I do.
(12:57):
Like I was really good at myjob and I was like okay.
So if I look like this, whatare you going to tell me it's
because of how I look or how Ispeak, because I am way better
at this than anybody else whocould hire for this particular
job.
So yeah, so I was working.
I worked in grad affairs, Iworked in faculty affairs, I
worked in.
I did a lot of diversity andinclusion, equity, inclusion
(13:17):
work and I loved it and I neverfelt like I had to hide who I
was.
But it got to a point where,you know, I went from zero like
I went from zero to three kidsin three months.
I started fostering my two sons.
I had my daughter and I waslike I need something else, I
need a flexible job, I needsomething different.
So I left and I went into.
I had no idea what I was in forBecause I had this luxury of
(13:41):
being in higher ed my wholecareer.
Yeah, so I went into corporatehealthcare doing diversity and
inclusion work.
I got fired after two monthsfor many, for probably many
reasons, but like I didn't fit,and essentially I didn't fit
what they thought professionalwas supposed to be like, and
they were looking for a reason.
So that was the point.
I didn't even have my chest atthe time.
Minessa Konecky (14:00):
I had I love your chest tattoo, by the way.
It's fab.
Thank you.
Sheva Guy (14:06):
I had my sleeve and after that I said I will not
work for a place that does notsee me as who I am and does not
accept me as who I am.
I'm not doing it.
So.
Minessa Konecky (14:16):
You know, I think that's such a like a.
It's seeing me who I am,accepting me who I am.
You know many so when I firststarted in my career in the in
the twenties, in in the 20s, nowI know when I was in my
twenties.
I only had the one.
I had, sylvester.
I don't know if you can see me,it's like he's old.
Sheva Guy (14:32):
It's kind of hard to see, but yeah.
Minessa Konecky (14:34):
He's impossible to see, but he's really old now
and he's also a little bit likecovered up.
But he was the first one that Igot and I had the same
philosophy that I had to be ableto cover them up.
You know, Boston has a.
Boston in general tends to bevery conservative in the in
terms of professionalism andwhatnot.
I think that.
So at the time there wasdefinitely a ceiling.
(14:56):
I couldn't move any furtherthan a certain ceiling based off
of the way that I wanted toshow up, Cause I call everybody
dude.
So, like dude, everybody's adude, right, Whether you're.
You can be a chief, a president, and you're dude.
You know you're an admin,everyone's a dude, Unless
someone's like listen, there's agender issue, Don't call me
that great, Then I'll make thechange.
Sheva Guy (15:14):
But it reminds me of Good Burger.
Did you ever watch Good Burgergrowing up?
Oh my God, it was Keenan andKel.
Like for all that, like total,like I'm such a nineties kid I
was like.
I always tell my kids like I'ma.
He said I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all Okay.
Minessa Konecky (15:27):
Yes, I'm a dude .
He's a dude.
I've actually seen that thing.
I'm a dude.
We're all dudes, everybody's adude.
Dude Like the big old badgrudges.
Dude Like every dude.
Dude Right, everyone's dude.
Oh no, that's the other twoWayne's world.
Sheva Guy (15:45):
So, but it was.
Minessa Konecky (15:45):
Bill and Ted.
For me, though I never was intoWayne's world, but I that's not
soups professional, and so thethe challenge that I had was
that I was really good at my job.
Also, there was an expectationof what people who are
professional look like, act like, speak like, so on and so forth
.
And I remember when I didn'tget a promotion, which at the
time it devastated me, but whenI look back it's honestly the
(16:07):
greatest thing that everhappened to me.
But it made me realize that,like you said, I will not be
able to be who I am inside andalso be here, which is this is
for the for the hundredausGalaxy SOUND tooling app.
Like.
What's interesting about that isthat that is how so many people
of color feel in anyenvironment that they're in.
(16:27):
Yeah, I cannot be the personthat I want.
So when I was first start with,so when I first came from
Pakistan, I never wore a jobthat here I don't wear my job,
that is, I brought it with me.
I love it, but I but I had alot of friends who did want to
cover their faces in their headsand they found it harder to get
(16:48):
jobs because of their and sothey could not express
themselves for who they are, andso I'm actually interested.
Because you do this.
You do this work for a livingas a consultant.
So when you go intoOrganizations and you do this
kind of work, what are some ofthe questions that you ask?
You know, or you ask people toask themselves because, like no
one, most of these places thinkthey're doing a good job, right,
(17:11):
they're like oh, I've got a.
DEI program.
You know, and I'm doing thisand I'm doing that.
I'm doing what you want, right?
What are some of the questionsthat you ask people that make
them sort of realize that, oh,you know what, what I'm doing
Maybe isn't enough if they'relike on the cusp, but they're
still in that defensive space.
Sheva Guy (17:29):
Yeah, and I actually I really I need to credit this
person, so I will send you thelink, but yes, I don't know her
pronounce name it's DaphinaLazarus, student.
So there's this.
It's a conversation I have itactually behind me Between
diversity, equity and inclusionand justice.
This is how I explain, becausea lot of folks like think
(17:49):
Interchange the term diversity,equity and inclusion.
So this is one way that Iactually explain what these
words actually mean anddistinguish them.
Right, but what I really love,I love this conversation and so
basically, what it says is sodiversity is saying so who's in
the room?
Just in general, who is?
So I always say picture aconference table, because we
(18:11):
always say who's at the table,okay, so picture a conversation.
Well, who is there?
Who's at the table?
Okay, so then Inclusion.
So equity is saying and I don'twant to butcher it so equity is
saying who's trying to get intothe room but can't?
Okay, so this is who's in theroom who can't get into this
room.
Inclusion is saying haveeveryone's ideas in this room
(18:32):
been heard?
And Then justice is saying whois ideas are not being taken
seriously because they're notpart of the majority, and so
that's how I get folks to flipthe script and I say okay.
So you're saying you've got likethis program, you have this,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
So part of you know this islike a random example, but you
(18:56):
know we do, I do, I'm an Oracleconsultant.
So if we do, I do changemanagement but we do Oracle
implementations and so it's biglike a cloud-based something
like human resources, softwarefinance offer, that kind of.
I'm not a type person, but oneof the things that I say is you
know who's at the table, all thefolks that you know.
(19:18):
If we're I do higher rightconsulting, so we've got our
staff, we got our faculty, we'vegot our grad students at the
table, we got our administratorsat the table.
These are the folks that are atthe table.
I'm like, well, think aboutwho's actually on your staff.
Is your Genitorial staff at thetable?
Is your event staff at thetable?
Is your staff that's actuallyrunning this place at the table?
No, it's the folks you wouldnormally, you they would think
(19:40):
of as being at the forefront,when they're not the actual,
they're not all the end users,right.
So it's thinking morecritically and more holistically
about who is actually here andwho can't get here and why?
Yeah, and it's criticallyasking those questions
throughout Is, and I love, Ilove that that that exchange
(20:02):
between, between diversity,equity and inclusion so to get
really demonstrates not only thedifference between them but how
we're actually, how we'reactually Typically so focused on
that diversity piece like whois at the table that we don't
think any deeper of.
Who can't get to the table?
Yep, who's at the table butdon't feel like they're taken
(20:23):
seriously.
Who's at the table but doesn'tfeel safe to say anything?
Yeah, so it doesn't matterwho's at the table if the people
at the table are being erased.
Minessa Konecky (20:32):
That is so.
Oh my god, dude, that's likesuch a key area because, like,
if you don't feel safe to speak,then you're not, then these
people aren't actually at thetable like they're, just they
are.
You could, you could take thatperson out and put a cardboard,
cut out of whatever you wantthere, because if that person
doesn't feel like they Can speakyeah, take a picture, but
that's what they want to do.
Sheva Guy (20:50):
Take a picture of it and say look at our diverse
committee.
Minessa Konecky (20:53):
That's and this is what I find really
interesting, because that'swhere I think things are getting
stuck right now, you know, asis the operationalization of
diversity, because, like mm-hmm.
So I read Do you follow?
Oh my god, no motivate onInstagram she's amazing.
Sheva Guy (21:11):
I'm such a loser and I'm not on Instagram.
Minessa Konecky (21:14):
Oh no, that's amazing.
Actually, I used to be like Iwas a social media marketing
Coach and I hated.
I got to a point where I hatedsocial media so much that I
literally shut everything downand just stopped.
And so now, people who are noton social media, I'm just mad.
Respect, because I'm like dude,you never got on it and so you
don't have like the.
(21:34):
It's not like.
It has its tentacles in you.
Sheva Guy (21:35):
You know I'm saying yeah, like it's funny like I
deleted my Facebook when I was afreshman in college, which is
when, like Everybody which Iknow, which is like what
everyone was like on, likethat's when people were on
Facebook.
Minessa Konecky (21:49):
And you were.
You were off of Facebook before.
Being off of Facebook was coolwith a thing.
Yeah, hello.
Sheva Guy (21:54):
I'm a fake.
I'm an off of Facebook hipsterlike these.
Gen Zers have no idea whothey're dealing with.
I've been off of Facebook, yeah, so I'm not like I actually do.
This is actually really funny.
I do have a fake book for theOhio Renaissance Festival, but
that's neither here nor there soI do they're.
Minessa Konecky (22:09):
It's fair, if you're gonna have a, if you're
gonna have a fake book forsomething, it would either be
that for me or Star Trek likeright exactly.
Sheva Guy (22:15):
Yeah, so, yeah.
So I don't have a Facebook, Idon't have an Instagram.
I watch videos on TikTok, butthey're like lame, like mom talk
videos, like parent talk, andthen what else, man, I mean I'm
on Reddit but like I'm amillennial, of course, I'm on
Reddit, I don't do anything.
And then LinkedIn I don't knowhow it happened.
I just I just started writingshit.
Minessa Konecky (22:35):
Your LinkedIn game is fucking on point like.
Sheva Guy (22:38):
I'm no idea what the fuck I'm doing.
I'm writing.
Minessa Konecky (22:40):
Oh, no, no, you're amazing, fab, I see you
all the time.
Yeah, no, instagram, no, no,it's totally fine.
So, but she brought up this.
She said something really likemy opening, right.
She said Quit trying to addcolor to your pictures, we're
not a fucking crayon box.
Yes, and I was like I knowbrilliant, right, and I think
(23:03):
that what I'm.
It made me, and so I read thison a long time ago and it made
me.
It was a.
It made me really think aboutwhen these challenges are coming
from.
And it goes back to People arevery concerned about the
diversity part, but they'remissing a point about why you
want diversity, right?
So it's like it's not diversityfor diversity's sake, it's
diversity because having aTexture of ideas and thoughts
(23:28):
and people makes everyone better, like that's it.
It's just that's.
It's a simple statement, right,right, but they think it's to
check a box and so it's not.
It's hard to imagine why youwould need to take any
additional steps once you've gotsomebody on the.
Sheva Guy (23:42):
They're in the picture like they're in the
picture and what's interestingis and I hate having to do this,
but really what a boy like itis.
It is empirically correct.
It is facts that diverse peopleat the table however you want
to say it that diverse people inorganizations if you have a
diversity of Any, if you haveeither you, your ideas are
renovated.
(24:02):
That's period.
Yet the ideas are gonna be moreinnovative when you're going to
do better and you're going tomake other people better and
Really what it is and the onlyreason I say it this way is cuz
consultants like to hear this.
It's the business case man likeyou, you want to make money.
You need more people here.
These, these white guys aren'tgonna cut it anymore.
They're not coming up with thediverse ideas.
They're the ones that aresaying this is how it's always
(24:24):
been and this is how we're gonnado it, because this is what I
know.
Minessa Konecky (24:26):
No, that's fucking sentence.
More than anything in the worldme Always been, or this is the
way we've always done it.
It's like I Can't, I can't even.
Sheva Guy (24:35):
It's like yeah, I'm the one that's like, well, why,
why?
Yeah, exactly reason, have youreassessed?
Minessa Konecky (24:41):
like I'm always gonna say why, I always like to
ask the question.
It's like, okay, well, if thisis the way you've always done it
, then that must mean it worksreally well.
Explain to me how it works, whyit works and what the benefits
are, and then we'll keep doingit, and maybe it is the way we
need to keep doing things.
But just because and I thinkthat's such a such an important,
(25:02):
important thing to note is thatanytime somebody says that,
it's usually a red flag for meoh yeah, because then that means
you don't actually know whyyou're doing something.
Yeah, actually, I'm curious.
So you're, and I don't know howto say the name of your
certification for changemanagement.
How do you say it?
Proci, proci, thank you.
I went to their website and Iwas like, oh, I love this, and
(25:23):
then it made me want to do that.
But I'm curious.
So you go into organizationsand now classic.
This is classic because I'veseen this in many organizations
that I've been in as aconsultant over the years, doing
other things, not as a changemanager.
Yeah, but like the statement Ihear more than anything, is I
mean I guess it would change,right, or is oh no, I embrace
(25:45):
change, I love change, I'm,we're all about change here.
All right, but then thebehavior, because you know where
I'm going with this.
Okay, because they're like Ifucking love change.
And then like every singlething you suggest.
So we can't do that.
Sheva Guy (25:57):
It's not like, it's like that quote, and I know it's
just like cheesy, but it's likeoh, I love change, you go first
it's, and it's funny.
And the thing that I'm reallygrappling with right now it's
also so funny and not surprising, is you know, I am one of my,
like, my niche is really tryingto make sure that we're
(26:18):
intentionally bringing equityand inclusion into change
management, because in myopinion, they're the same thing.
They're the same thing.
Our equity and inclusionefforts are change management
efforts.
Our change management effortsare equity and inclusion efforts
.
It's a people thing, it's apeople.
It's people and change.
It's just so funny to see howmuch because, like, pros say
they have their methodology andit works, like I mean, it works,
(26:41):
you know.
But there's always things likeI'm always like, why can be
better?
It can always be better Changemanagement people.
They don't want to change.
They don't want to changeeither.
They don't want to change theirmethodology.
I'm like they're like, well,you, they're like we go into
these rooms and say, like weneed to talk about change and we
have big picture and why peopledon't want to change.
And I'm like, well, maybe weshould change our methodology.
How fucking dare you?
(27:02):
We don't need to change.
We don't do that, and I'mempathetic about it because I
get it Like I understand.
We're all human and we areresistant to change, and that is
a fact.
Minessa Konecky (27:15):
You know, and I'm glad you said that because,
like biologically, if we werenot wired to hate change, we
would not have evolved as aspecies, because we all would be
dead.
Because back in the day whenthere were only 1300 people on
the planet, the fact that wecould identify a change in the
weather and identify thatsomething dangerous was coming
is what kept us alive as aspecies.
(27:35):
But I think we try to pretendlike we don't have that
biological imperative and it'slike we have to accept that we
do not like change.
We can accept that it's goodfor us, but we can also accept
we don't like it and that weneed to do some work to work
through whatever that discomfortis.
So how do you what are some ofthe things that you say?
Or work with people to helpthem bridge that space?
Sheva Guy (27:58):
Yeah, I think and it's not, I don't say anything.
And this is where you have toget, and it's hard.
So you have to get people toget there.
Yeah, on their own, you have toget, you have to get that
buy-in.
But you also have to make surethey know, like, if this change
is happening, like it'shappening, especially if it's
(28:18):
like a tech implementation, likethis is happening, so, but we
need to figure out how, likemake how it's happening as
inclusive and as as peopleoriented and participatory as
possible.
We want you to be a part ofthat change and tell us what are
(28:39):
you afraid of?
How do we mitigate that?
What are things that you'renervous about that you think
leadership isn't ready for?
Like how do we train them?
All those things.
And I kind of think about it andthis is also going to sound
silly, but I think about itwhere, you know, I'm trying to
get my three and a half year oldto eat anything, anything.
Just fucking eat something.
Just eat something.
Like, instead of saying, oh, doyou want to eat?
(29:00):
No, if I say, do you want tochange?
Absolutely not, okay, but wecan control how we do it.
So I say, okay, do you want toeat a cheese stick, or do you
want to eat a thing of fruitsnacks?
Because I'm a great mom andthat's when I'm feeding my child
, but it's like that's a fedchild, is a happy child, so
that's what's like.
I give them the choice, so it'slike you're eating.
(29:22):
Yeah, like this change ishappening, but let's work
together to figure out how wecan make it as painless and as
much of an opportunity for youas it can be.
How do we and it's that buy-inand again, I know that's
corporate speak, but it's trueLike if people aren't on board
with it, they're going to be.
(29:43):
They're either going to leavethe organization, potentially
because they're not going to behappy, or they're just going to
completely dissociate and not dotheir jobs well, and that's
what we want to avoid.
We want to work with peopletowards change, as opposed to
saying this change is happeningand this is how it's happening.
No one wants to be told what todo, it's true.
Minessa Konecky (30:01):
I don't.
I, oh my God.
I was an adolescent until I was37, so I really don't like to
be told what to do at all.
Sheva Guy (30:09):
And I'm currently dealing with, like the
aversioning preteen, and it's astruggle.
Minessa Konecky (30:15):
So if you're like autistic, or then you have
defiance right, so I have.
I had a lot of defiance withinme, like, or because it's like
if I didn't understand why,right, so like you'd have an
ADHD thing too, yeah.
Adhd.
You know I have, I have.
I have what I hate to.
I don't hate this word reallyAuti, auti.
I fucking hate the word.
I think it's a terrible word.
I mean, I love my superpowersthat I have because of it, but
(30:38):
the word is just stupid.
Sheva Guy (30:40):
I know I see it and that sounds bad too, cause I see
it and I'm like, can we?
Minessa Konecky (30:44):
really not.
Can we have another word please?
That's not so awful yeah.
So I can never remember whichone is where my defiance comes
from.
But like, I have to know whyand like, and a lot of times
then it's like you know, thenit's almost combative.
You know now that I'm thinkingabout it, I'm thinking about
your kids and I'm like, boy, areyou in for it?
Cause you've got the preteenwho you know.
(31:06):
If you have any neurodivergence, then they're then like they're
going to be and you're going tounderstand it, cause you're
going to be like well, I get it.
I would ask the same question.
So now I have to actuallyanswer.
So you're like um, I love.
So you know you mentionedcorporate speak, which I fucking
hate and you hated too.
Sheva Guy (31:21):
But there's a funny though it's also, but I think
it's also the language thatpeople understand.
Minessa Konecky (31:26):
So it's like it's something that, like, I've
been thinking a lot about.
I used to teach marketing andone of the things that basically
everything's marketing.
You know you're trying tomarket the cheese.
Stick to your kid.
The story I used to give waswhen my brother was little and
he didn't eat when he broccoli.
Right, and me saying you needto eat broccoli cause it's
healthy, for you is not going toconvince him to eat the
broccoli, but me turning it intolittle trees that are running
(31:47):
away from his sadistic desire tomurder them got him very
excited to eat the trees andthey were like, oh, don't kill
me, but he's like I'm going toeat you now.
And it was great, right.
Sheva Guy (31:57):
So we got my kids to eat asparagus Like Bluey knows
what's up.
Minessa Konecky (32:00):
Did he kill the asparagus?
Were they like all yours?
Sheva Guy (32:03):
It was like well, my husband is.
He my husband's a stay at homedad, so he knows more of the
storylines and probably canrecite every single episode when
I think the asparagus was likea magic wand or something.
I'm not really sure if thisgets put on the podcast.
This quote about Bluey and Iget put on blast by Bluey fans.
I'm so sorry.
I haven't seen Bluey live onThursday, though, so that's
happening.
Minessa Konecky (32:23):
I'm very excited.
Sheva Guy (32:24):
I'm very excited.
This must be a parent thing.
So it's a kid show for parents.
Minessa Konecky (32:32):
Oh, I see, Okay .
So basically the kids can watchit, but the parents can get
something out of it too.
It's great, got it Okay?
Sheva Guy (32:37):
I think anybody would love it.
It's just a great show.
Minessa Konecky (32:42):
Fabulous God when I think of the shit that we
watched when we were you watch.
You must have watched Barney asa kid.
I did, you did, I did.
Yeah, my brother did too.
Sheva Guy (32:50):
I have an old puppet.
It's a babybop puppet and mydaughter fucking loves it.
She won't watch it, thank God,but she loves the puppet.
Minessa Konecky (33:00):
I know, yeah, it is.
I remember so vividly thosedays.
But going back to what you weresaying earlier about the
business case, is I think thatactually no, wait, hold on.
I want to go to something else.
First is the opportunity.
I actually like that better.
So you were talking about how,when you're working with staff,
(33:21):
you really want to figure outhow can we turn this into an
opportunity for you, and that'sactually one of the things that
I talk about a lot in terms ofwhen I coach or anything in
general, is how can you turnwhatever it is into an
opportunity for you.
So I really love this.
Can we dive into that a littlebit more in terms of, like, do
you work with people?
In terms, like, when you'rehaving these conversations, in
(33:42):
terms of helping them tonavigate the bridge, Like, okay,
this is an opportunity for youbecause, like, how do you help
them shift that framework?
Oh, I love it Delicious.
Sheva Guy (33:52):
It's so funny that you're saying this, because the
reason why I laugh about thebridge thing is because I
actually literally am giving apresentation today about so we
have our and this again, this isa tech implementation.
So we've got our project teamwho's implementing the
technology, and we've got ourend users.
How do we get them to theproject team, to the end?
And literally the.
(34:12):
I didn't create this graphic,but I still love it.
It's a bridge and the bridge ischange management.
Like change management is howwe get there.
It sounds so cheesy, but it'strue.
It's like we can't.
You know when I think aboutchange management, how I
describe it is.
Let's say, there's this bigchange that happens overnight.
You wake up all of a sudden,you're using a new software and
that's it.
No training, no feedback, noquestions, no preparations all
(34:35):
of those things is what changemanagement does.
And now I forget the originalquestion because I got excited
about the bridge.
Minessa Konecky (34:42):
Oh yeah, no, it was so like I'm sitting here
and I'm like, oh my God, thissucks, and you're like, no, this
is an opportunity.
How do you, how do you help mesee it as an opportunity?
Sheva Guy (34:51):
Yes, great question.
So God damn it.
I said it fuck.
I said great question, greatquestion, great question, thanks
, sheva.
Minessa Konecky (34:58):
Thank you, I know I appreciate it.
Sheva Guy (35:01):
So I actually had a meeting with someone who and he
was like the sweetest guy ever,such a good like, really a good
guy, but he's like a careerconsultant and he, every
question that got asked in thismeeting, great question, great
question.
That's a great question.
So, yeah, so what I do and thisgoes back to my doctoral days
is my my doctorate is in it'snot in a specific content area,
(35:24):
right, it's in a methodology.
It's inclusive methodologiesand participatory methodologies.
And so everything I do isrooted in participatory methods,
and when I say participatorymethods, I mean in research,
because this is where it'srooted.
It's rooted in research.
(35:45):
What you're studying, the peoplethat are in the population that
you're looking at, they're theexperts.
Like we see them as the experts.
They are the experts, they havethe knowledge, they know what
needs to change.
I am a facilitator of thatchange.
I've got a bunch of tools in mytoolkit that can say these are
the things that we can use toget you there, but you are the
content experts and that's how Igo in any change
(36:09):
implementations.
This is a partnership.
This isn't me, the consultantor the researcher or whatever,
swooping in and saying this iswhat's best for your
organization.
I know nothing about yourorganization.
I need you to tell me.
I need to figure out how to beimmersed in this culture, and
the only way I can do that isfor you to be my partners in
this.
So that's why I do everythingin a participatory manner,
(36:33):
working together with peoplethroughout the process.
So I'm not just gonna say thisis how we're gonna communicate
to the organization.
I'm gonna say what channels arebest, what do people like, what
do they need, what do they needfor training, what does your
audience look like?
And they I don't do anythingwithout that partnership.
I'm never gonna be the personthat comes in and says this is
what's best for yourorganization, because I do not
(36:53):
know your organization.
You have to tell me, and I relyon you as that content expert.
You have that expertise.
You're the ones that know.
I'm the one that can help youfigure out how to get there.
I'm the one that can give you abunch of tools for training,
but I need to know what kind oftraining works best for you.
Guys, I can't, you know, I canget you there, I can bring these
methods in, but I need to knowwhat works for you.
So I see myself as having likethis arsenal of methods to help
(37:17):
people make the change happenand see and get to that point
and when people feel like, andwhen they know, not just feel
like they're a part of theprocess, not just gathering
feedback and saying, okay, wegather feedback for the sake of
gathering feedback, like thecheck in the box thing, I'm
gathering feedback, I'm takingthat feedback, I'm using that
feedback.
I'm showing you how I'm usingthat feedback and how we're
changing an event and people geton board because they are part
(37:39):
of the process, as opposed to onthe sidelines watching it
happen.
An example that I use to likeI'm even participatory when I
teach my classes.
I've used, I've built mysyllabus with my students before
I tell my students whatassignments do you think are
best for you for this class.
So a lot of it makes a lot ofstudents uncomfortable.
Why?
Because they're not used tothat.
They're used to a professorcoming in and saying this is
(37:59):
what you're doing in this class,do this paper, do this, do this
, do this, do this.
So that vagueness and thatambiguity is really hard for
them.
But once they get past itthey're like holy shit, I can
make this class what I want itto be.
Yeah, and that's what I do.
And so when I gather feedback,like during, like halfway
through the semester, I'm likeI'm gathering feedback, I gather
the feedback and I say this iswhat you told me and this is how
(38:23):
I'm changing things because ofwhat you told me and I'm showing
you that yeah, and I thinkthat's the key is making sure
people are involved.
I guess.
So got so excited talking aboutthis, oh my God.
Minessa Konecky (38:34):
No, that's amazing.
I love it.
So because you know one of thechallenges that I had over the
years I worked in many, manyorganizations who were not ready
for the change that they youknow, it's always software, so I
do a lot of implementations,and that's why?
Sheva Guy (38:45):
yeah, that's what I do at my job.
Minessa Konecky (38:46):
Yeah, and they're almost never ready and
they almost never want to spendthe time necessary to be able to
prep, to be able to have a goodonboarding.
And I think that, oh my God,dude, there is a fucking
hummingbird right by my God.
I gotta tell my wife Do it, Idon't know, it's on the porch
there.
Sorry, I know you're good.
Sheva Guy (39:10):
We have a little hummingbird.
Are we get so excited?
Minessa Konecky (39:12):
We don't see them often, so Neither do we,
and it's so exciting and sinceshe started transitioning, we've
become crazy lesbians who lovebirds.
We are like we are diving intoour lesbian lifestyle.
Like I just watched a video.
Sheva Guy (39:24):
I don't know if you follow, if you watch any of Ryan
George's videos, either onTikTok or YouTube.
Okay, so he does like the firstperson to ever and I just
watched a video because thefirst person ever own a bird and
he's like I put this bird, Iput the dude comes.
He's like what is this?
He goes, this is my friend andI am holding him in captivity.
He didn't pass anything, I justcaught him, but I, the cage I
built him caught.
I'll send it to you.
I just watched it.
(39:44):
That's the biggest.
Absolutely I will follow theperson, love it, love it, love
it.
I used to keep chickens, funfact.
So my sister keeps chickens, mysister keeps chickens.
Minessa Konecky (39:53):
And then, oh my God, one day she came out and a
chicken had been murdered bysome sort of?
Sheva Guy (39:57):
Oh, that happens.
Minessa Konecky (39:58):
Oh, she was very upset.
Well, her kid found it was awhole thing and it just happened
.
You know circle of life and allthat and again, growing up in
Pakistan we've seen many, many,many chickens die.
But her kids, it was new forthem so this was like good.
Sheva Guy (40:10):
You got to prepare the kids for that.
Yeah, we got them prepared, weended up.
So we we had chickens for awhile and we ended up when we
started getting licensed forfoster care.
It was when we ended upbringing and it sounds like I'm
bringing them to a farm.
No, we actually brought them toa free range farm.
Minessa Konecky (40:24):
Did you take them to the farm to live all the
rest of their life?
Sheva Guy (40:27):
No, we really did.
Some of them had chicks, whichwas so cute, so we couldn't have
a rooster because we lived incity limits.
But so when we started we hadto have a home study for foster
care and our chicken coop.
We don't live in this house now, but our chicken coop was not
in Ordinance because it was tooclose to the property line.
But my neighbor didn't carebecause she was family and she
was like, yeah, let's dowhatever.
So we had to.
So you had to do the licensurething in my house.
(40:48):
Correct they were, yeah, correctThey'd be.
Like they have to figure it out, so we had to.
You know, I tell my boys likeit was 100% worth it to get rid
of the chickens, but stop actinglike asshole pretains right now
.
You know what I mean.
Minessa Konecky (41:03):
It's so fun.
Yeah, Can you like?
Sheva Guy (41:05):
next.
They're always like can we havemore chickens?
I'm like I'm not dealing withthat anymore, if you want to
clean it and do all that shit,fine, but I'm not doing it.
Minessa Konecky (41:11):
That's you know it's sort of like, once you've
done it, you're like okay, I'vedone that, I've been there, done
that Exactly.
It was so great to have you.
I love talking about thesethings, and you know what it's
funny, like I was like, oh myGod, we only got to like two or
three of my questions because wejust kept going.
Sheva Guy (41:24):
I know I feel bad.
I was like go ahead and hand it.
Minessa Konecky (41:26):
I was like this is what happens when you have
two people with ADHD who bothknow, they have.
Adhd and are totally notmasking, because I don't mask,
you don't mask.
I'm just like, let's just do thething.
So I love it.
I think it's great and Iactually love it when we don't
get to any of my questions,because that means our
conversation was totally organicas opposed to like I have the
questions as a backup.
But here's the thing myindustry research administration
(41:50):
is an industry that is ripe forchange management right now,
like they're looking for peoplelike you.
So I know that there are goingto be many people who listen to
this who are like oh my God, howdo I get in touch with Sheva
and work with her?
So tell me all the things abouthow people can find you.
Sheva Guy (42:03):
Yeah, so you can direct them to my LinkedIn.
I can give you my website, too,where people can like book time
to meet with me, but just likereach out on LinkedIn.
Minessa Konecky (42:10):
I'm there, it's true, it's true, she is there a
lot and follow her, connectwith her and look at all the
stuff that she posts because,honestly, dude, your anti-racism
content is spot on.
It's solid.
I love, love, following you.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us today.
Sheva Guy (42:24):
I really, really appreciate it.
Seriously, this is
Hi everyone and welcome to the Stop Shitting
All Over Yourself podcast.
Today I am here with Dr ShevaGuy.
Sheva Guy (00:19):
Sheva.
Minessa Konecky (00:20):
Guy, sheva Guy.
Thank you, sheva Guy.
I should have asked thatquestion beforehand.
This is actually the first timethat we are meeting in person
and Sheva is amazing.
I met her because she invitedme to.
I saw a post of yours onLinkedIn and then I saw that you
ran a group called this Is whatProfessionals Look Like, and I
(00:43):
loved it, absolutely loved thatgroup Fabulous, and I joined it
and then invited everyone I knowto join it.
So I welcome, welcome, sheva.
How?
Sheva Guy (00:51):
are you doing today?
I am good, so the group isactually hashtag Inked.
In, so it is Inked In.
Oh, okay, inked In.
Yes, inked In.
So people ask me a lot.
They are like is that missBelle?
And I am like no, it is InkedIn, love it, love it.
Inked On LinkedIn.
Yeah, thank you so much forhaving me.
Minessa Konecky (01:08):
Fabulous.
So I am curious.
So first of all, I would lovefor people to get to know a
little bit about you.
So let me tell you a little bitabout my framework and how I
approached the world just to, sowe can sort of set the stage a
little.
I am autistic, neurodivergentPakistani.
I moved here when I was 22years old, had a little bit of
(01:29):
culture shock, and I amchronically ill, and it
struggled a lot with maintainingmy energy and health levels,
and so that is the frameworkfrom which sort of like I have
to live my life in terms ofgoing to work and getting up
every day and so on and so forth.
I would love for you to sharesome of that as well with our
listeners.
Sheva Guy (01:47):
Yeah, absolutely so my framework.
So I've generalized anxietydisorder, probably like the
first thing that I knew was athing for me.
Also, I'm diagnosed with OCD,so I've got GAD.
I say GAD, OCD, ADHD, PhD,because I've got all the things.
So I just had the.
Minessa Konecky (02:05):
PhD.
I'm going to go get a PhD.
Sheva Guy (02:09):
Yeah, so I was diagnosed with generalized
anxiety disorder and obsessivecompulsive disorder when I was
younger I guess in my early 20sprobably and I always thought
like there's something elsegoing on here.
And once I finally got myanxiety in check, I got
diagnosed with ADHD and I waslike, oh my gosh, this is the
missing piece that I've beendealing with my entire life.
(02:32):
And then also and this might bea trigger warning for some, but
I also am recovering from aneating disorder, and that's
something that I do talk about alot in terms of shedding light
on, like what professional meansand why I am inked and what is
professional really reallyshould be.
So all of those things are whatI bring to the table.
Minessa Konecky (02:55):
Yeah, I'm actually really curious because
I would love to hear yourperspective on this.
Like what is professional?
And I'm curious to know, likenot how you see it right now,
but like what?
When people say that'sunprofessional, like what do
they actually mean?
Sheva Guy (03:12):
Yeah.
So first of all, since theysaid I'm a lot of cuss, fuck
professionalism, fuckprofessionalism, fuck all of it.
Because it is this, it's thisword like it is this word that
nobody really knows what itmeans.
It's so subjective in a way,but it's also so very clearly
(03:32):
rooted in white supremacy.
When I say rooted in whitesupremacy, I mean rooted in
racism, classism, sexism, thepatriarchy, gender on
normativity, all of it.
Because when we think aboutprofessionalism and the roots of
professionalism and myperspective is in the United
States, I've been in the Midwest, I've been in San Diego, I've
been here my whole life and whenwe think about the workplace
(03:57):
and are the traditionalprofessional business workplace,
very suit and tie, buttoned up,and who's allowed to wear the
suit and ties, who's the one youknow, who's in the corner
office?
It's the white guys with theties right, and so that's kind
of what I see.
When I hear professional, I'mlike that's what people see,
(04:17):
right, and I've gotten I meanI've gotten in trouble for
looking unprofessional andspeaking unprofessional.
And I think professionalismit's not just, it's a lot, it
encompasses a lot of differentthings.
It's the way we dress, it's howwe present ourselves, it's how
we speak, and all of that is100% rooted in all in white
(04:42):
supremacy again, racism,classism, sexism, all of that is
where that kind of conceptcomes from.
It's that expectation to formto the white male ideal and if
you don't, and the purpose of itis, so we can like, so we can
be held, so they can have powerover us.
It's like it's an oppressivesystem, right?
(05:05):
So that's how I see it.
Minessa Konecky (05:07):
When I hear the word professionalism, or
professional in the traditionalsense, I guess yeah, it's so
interesting because I think that, like if you were to ask
somebody and say, okay, whattell me about you know, saying
you're not professional, and yousay, okay, what is
professionalism?
They'll say things like well,you know, you have to talk a
certain way, dress a certain way.
And what's interesting is thatthere's like a you made a post
(05:29):
on LinkedIn the other day thatI'm going to show the link with
in the show notes that itbasically showed the iceberg of
racism or where, like there waslike the top part, which is like
the socially unacceptable partsof white supremacy, and then
there's like so many things sortof under there.
I almost feel like, if you usethe iceberg analogy, there's the
(05:50):
description of what isprofessional that goes at the
top, where it's like you knowthe suit and tie and the way you
talk, and so on and so forth.
And then, underneath the iceberg, what I think a lot of people
don't necessarily realize isthat, in order to say, have a
suit and a tie, you have to haveaccess, you have to have and
like, and not necessarily justaccess to a suit and a tie,
(06:12):
because then it becomes wheredid you get your suit and your
tie from right which you knowbecause, like it's, there's
always another level ofsomething that you have to get
to to be able to achieve thelevel of professionalism.
It's like if you look atsomebody who is at like the VP,
you know president level, youknow who is buying $10,000 suits
, right?
That's sort of like the quoteunquote professional ideal,
(06:34):
right?
Well, if I'm buying my suitfrom Phylene's basement, I may
still be wearing a suit, but isit suity enough?
Sheva Guy (06:41):
You know it's a good point, Like professional enough,
like it still has those levelsAbsolutely.
Minessa Konecky (06:47):
And I hadn't thought of that until you said
that and I started to thinkabout it.
I was like you know what I waslike?
I'm starting to get a feelingabout my 20 year old self here,
because I remember buying myfirst suit from Phylene's
basement and it didn't fit rightBecause and so I had to like,
oh my God, I felt so awkward andit was absolutely ridiculous.
So, okay.
So I'm curious Now, when youfirst moved into the
(07:07):
professional like a professionalenvironment from school and you
have a, you teach your teacher,you're a teacher and a
consultant.
Sheva Guy (07:13):
So, yeah, so I am a full-time consultant, but then I
also I also teach.
Yeah, my background is inhigher education, so I still say
that I'm fairly new toconsulting.
I've been in management,consulting operations,
consulting change management, inthe change management realm for
like a year and a half now, soI still like my core.
I'm like I feel like I stillcame from higher ed.
Minessa Konecky (07:33):
Now did you struggle, Like, how did it when
you were trying it when well,first of all, were you inked up
when you first started in yourcareer?
Or did that like I mean,obviously we eventually all gain
our tattoos over time Right,like, how inked, how visibly
inked up were you when youstarted?
Sheva Guy (07:47):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So that's, that's another thing, Like I'm so getting into this
corporate speak thing.
That's a great question.
Minessa Konecky (07:53):
It's such I can't get it out.
This is a great question,vanessa.
Sheva Guy (07:55):
Thank you, I can't get it out of my fucking mouth.
I can't like there's thesethings and I do have this.
I have a series corporate wordyWednesdays where I make fun of
these phrases that I hear allthe time in the corporate world
Love it.
Minessa Konecky (08:08):
And yeah, so you can't be corporate now
because, Okay, awesome, I don'tknow, sometimes it just slips.
Sheva Guy (08:13):
It just slips out.
I'm like where did that comefrom?
What does that mean?
I'm like it's the devil on myshoulder from corporate.
So I'm like, say that's a greatquestion, say cadence, okay.
So so when I first started, somy journey is like a little bit
different into the working worldbecause I, I got, I got my PhD.
(08:36):
So I was in school for a verylong time, right Like I was in
grad school and I, to be quitehonestly, like I was told
growing up, like you know, I wasraised in an Eastern European
Jewish household and it was youeither be a doctor or you're a
lawyer.
Dr lawyer, accountant, dr lawyer.
No, that's what.
(08:56):
I don't think that was anoption.
It was doctor or lawyer.
It was doctor or lawyer, maybe.
Maybe that has changed.
I'm estranged from my parentsso I haven't had a conversation
with them about how that.
I know this is like a totalside conversation and I know
we're riffing and I love that,but the amount of people that
are like I don't care for yourfamily, you're toxic and I'm
(09:17):
done, is just beautiful.
Minessa Konecky (09:18):
It just so beautiful.
It really is so much, so much.
It is okay to ditch your family.
Sheva Guy (09:23):
Yes, people always say, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm like
so great, my life is better, mylife is better.
Yeah, so I was.
So it was like doctor or lawyer, and so I always, like, had
that perception of like I haveto get this higher degree.
And you know, I went through.
I changed my major 3,000 times,as one does.
(09:43):
I was in psychology, I was insubstance abuse counseling.
I had did a stint in criminaljustice for a hot minute because
I was like, very like, I'mgoing to reform everything and I
I mean, I was like 20.
So, so I ended up in a doctoralprogram.
It was an educational,community-based action, research
doctoral program.
(10:03):
I still had no idea what Iwanted to do, but I was like I'm
just going to stay in schooluntil I figure it out.
That's where I entered into therealm of participatory work and
diversity and inclusion and Ifell into that.
So I've always had.
So when I've got my firsttattoo which one was it?
It was this one.
(10:24):
It's so basic.
I randomly got it one day.
I basically started gettingtattoos as I made progress in my
degree.
So I was like, okay, I finishedmy first year, let's get a
tattoo.
I finished my literature review.
Let's get a tattoo.
I finished my comprehensiveexams let's get a tattoo.
(10:46):
So I was doing it at theselittle rewards.
It was kind of like spatteredhere and there.
It wasn't very at first.
When I first started gettingthem, I thought they need to be
places where I can cover them up, because I remember running on
my nose pierced and I was stilltalking to my parents.
They were like you're nevergoing to get a job.
I was like, oh no, no, we'regoing to get a job.
No one will hire you.
(11:06):
No one will hire you, no onewill hire you.
So that was always in my head.
I was like no one will hire you, no one will hire you.
You can get a job at a tattooshop and that's it.
I'm like that actually soundsfucking dope, but I'm not
artistic enough to do that.
So, yeah, I was getting thesetattoos in places where I was
like I can easily cover this up.
I can easily cover this up.
I remember before I had any ofmy tattoos and I was in my
(11:27):
master's program, I started themwhen I was in my doctorate.
I had my nose pierced and I wasinterning.
It was actually really cool.
It was a prison, but it was arehabilitation facility as well.
I worked with women and it wasa really cool place to be.
But I remember I still put alittle bandaid on my nose ring.
(11:48):
I felt like I had to.
I looked like a fucking idiotbut I had no idea I was 19,.
Like sticking a little bandaid,so yeah, so that was the whole
thing.
So I always felt like I can dothese things, but I have to
cover it up.
They have to be in places whereI can cover it up.
So when I landed my first job Imean it was in higher head Like
it's different in higher ed it's, you know, we are burnt out,
(12:11):
we're tired, we work long hours,but also like no one gives a
fuck what you look like, andthat's pretty cool.
Like I do if I say this likeand I love my job, I do love my
job right now, but if they wouldpay me what I'm making right
now, I would go back to highered in a heartbeat.
They never will, but I justlove that culture.
I felt like I never had amoment in that life when I
(12:35):
worked in higher ed that Ithought I couldn't be 100% who I
am.
That's amazing.
My honestly, like my, my momtravels.
Like what are they going to do?
Fire me, because they can't.
Like it's almost impossible.
I wasn't even faculty and it'sstill like impossible.
Because if you're faculty, it'simpossible, and that's the
thing is.
Like it wasn't, like I wasdoing anything wrong, like I was
, I'm really good at what I do.
(12:57):
Like I was really good at myjob and I was like okay.
So if I look like this, whatare you going to tell me it's
because of how I look or how Ispeak, because I am way better
at this than anybody else whocould hire for this particular
job.
So yeah, so I was working.
I worked in grad affairs, Iworked in faculty affairs, I
worked in.
I did a lot of diversity andinclusion, equity, inclusion
(13:17):
work and I loved it and I neverfelt like I had to hide who I
was.
But it got to a point where,you know, I went from zero like
I went from zero to three kidsin three months.
I started fostering my two sons.
I had my daughter and I waslike I need something else, I
need a flexible job, I needsomething different.
So I left and I went into.
I had no idea what I was in forBecause I had this luxury of
(13:41):
being in higher ed my wholecareer.
Yeah, so I went into corporatehealthcare doing diversity and
inclusion work.
I got fired after two monthsfor many, for probably many
reasons, but like I didn't fit,and essentially I didn't fit
what they thought professionalwas supposed to be like, and
they were looking for a reason.
So that was the point.
I didn't even have my chest atthe time.
Minessa Konecky (14:00):
I had I love your chest tattoo, by the way.
It's fab.
Thank you.
Sheva Guy (14:06):
I had my sleeve and after that I said I will not
work for a place that does notsee me as who I am and does not
accept me as who I am.
I'm not doing it.
So.
Minessa Konecky (14:16):
You know, I think that's such a like a.
It's seeing me who I am,accepting me who I am.
You know many so when I firststarted in my career in the in
the twenties, in in the 20s, nowI know when I was in my
twenties.
I only had the one.
I had, sylvester.
I don't know if you can see me,it's like he's old.
Sheva Guy (14:32):
It's kind of hard to see, but yeah.
Minessa Konecky (14:34):
He's impossible to see, but he's really old now
and he's also a little bit likecovered up.
But he was the first one that Igot and I had the same
philosophy that I had to be ableto cover them up.
You know, Boston has a.
Boston in general tends to bevery conservative in the in
terms of professionalism andwhatnot.
I think that.
So at the time there wasdefinitely a ceiling.
(14:56):
I couldn't move any furtherthan a certain ceiling based off
of the way that I wanted toshow up, Cause I call everybody
dude.
So, like dude, everybody's adude, right, Whether you're.
You can be a chief, a president, and you're dude.
You know you're an admin,everyone's a dude, Unless
someone's like listen, there's agender issue, Don't call me
that great, Then I'll make thechange.
Sheva Guy (15:14):
But it reminds me of Good Burger.
Did you ever watch Good Burgergrowing up?
Oh my God, it was Keenan andKel.
Like for all that, like total,like I'm such a nineties kid I
was like.
I always tell my kids like I'ma.
He said I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all Okay.
Minessa Konecky (15:27):
Yes, I'm a dude .
He's a dude.
I've actually seen that thing.
I'm a dude.
We're all dudes, everybody's adude.
Dude Like the big old badgrudges.
Dude Like every dude.
Dude Right, everyone's dude.
Oh no, that's the other twoWayne's world.
Sheva Guy (15:45):
So, but it was.
Minessa Konecky (15:45):
Bill and Ted.
For me, though I never was intoWayne's world, but I that's not
soups professional, and so thethe challenge that I had was
that I was really good at my job.
Also, there was an expectationof what people who are
professional look like, act like, speak like, so on and so forth
.
And I remember when I didn'tget a promotion, which at the
time it devastated me, but whenI look back it's honestly the
(16:07):
greatest thing that everhappened to me.
But it made me realize that,like you said, I will not be
able to be who I am inside andalso be here, which is this is
for the for the hundredausGalaxy SOUND tooling app.
Like.
What's interesting about that isthat that is how so many people
of color feel in anyenvironment that they're in.
(16:27):
Yeah, I cannot be the personthat I want.
So when I was first start with,so when I first came from
Pakistan, I never wore a jobthat here I don't wear my job,
that is, I brought it with me.
I love it, but I but I had alot of friends who did want to
cover their faces in their headsand they found it harder to get
(16:48):
jobs because of their and sothey could not express
themselves for who they are, andso I'm actually interested.
Because you do this.
You do this work for a livingas a consultant.
So when you go intoOrganizations and you do this
kind of work, what are some ofthe questions that you ask?
You know, or you ask people toask themselves because, like no
one, most of these places thinkthey're doing a good job, right,
(17:11):
they're like oh, I've got a.
DEI program.
You know, and I'm doing thisand I'm doing that.
I'm doing what you want, right?
What are some of the questionsthat you ask people that make
them sort of realize that, oh,you know what, what I'm doing
Maybe isn't enough if they'relike on the cusp, but they're
still in that defensive space.
Sheva Guy (17:29):
Yeah, and I actually I really I need to credit this
person, so I will send you thelink, but yes, I don't know her
pronounce name it's DaphinaLazarus, student.
So there's this.
It's a conversation I have itactually behind me Between
diversity, equity and inclusionand justice.
This is how I explain, becausea lot of folks like think
(17:49):
Interchange the term diversity,equity and inclusion.
So this is one way that Iactually explain what these
words actually mean anddistinguish them.
Right, but what I really love,I love this conversation and so
basically, what it says is sodiversity is saying so who's in
the room?
Just in general, who is?
So I always say picture aconference table, because we
(18:11):
always say who's at the table,okay, so picture a conversation.
Well, who is there?
Who's at the table?
Okay, so then Inclusion.
So equity is saying and I don'twant to butcher it so equity is
saying who's trying to get intothe room but can't?
Okay, so this is who's in theroom who can't get into this
room.
Inclusion is saying haveeveryone's ideas in this room
(18:32):
been heard?
And Then justice is saying whois ideas are not being taken
seriously because they're notpart of the majority, and so
that's how I get folks to flipthe script and I say okay.
So you're saying you've got likethis program, you have this,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
So part of you know this islike a random example, but you
(18:56):
know we do, I do, I'm an Oracleconsultant.
So if we do, I do changemanagement but we do Oracle
implementations and so it's biglike a cloud-based something
like human resources, softwarefinance offer, that kind of.
I'm not a type person, but oneof the things that I say is you
know who's at the table, all thefolks that you know.
(19:18):
If we're I do higher rightconsulting, so we've got our
staff, we got our faculty, we'vegot our grad students at the
table, we got our administratorsat the table.
These are the folks that are atthe table.
I'm like, well, think aboutwho's actually on your staff.
Is your Genitorial staff at thetable?
Is your event staff at thetable?
Is your staff that's actuallyrunning this place at the table?
No, it's the folks you wouldnormally, you they would think
(19:40):
of as being at the forefront,when they're not the actual,
they're not all the end users,right.
So it's thinking morecritically and more holistically
about who is actually here andwho can't get here and why?
Yeah, and it's criticallyasking those questions
throughout Is, and I love, Ilove that that that exchange
(20:02):
between, between diversity,equity and inclusion so to get
really demonstrates not only thedifference between them but how
we're actually, how we'reactually Typically so focused on
that diversity piece like whois at the table that we don't
think any deeper of.
Who can't get to the table?
Yep, who's at the table butdon't feel like they're taken
(20:23):
seriously.
Who's at the table but doesn'tfeel safe to say anything?
Yeah, so it doesn't matterwho's at the table if the people
at the table are being erased.
Minessa Konecky (20:32):
That is so.
Oh my god, dude, that's likesuch a key area because, like,
if you don't feel safe to speak,then you're not, then these
people aren't actually at thetable like they're, just they
are.
You could, you could take thatperson out and put a cardboard,
cut out of whatever you wantthere, because if that person
doesn't feel like they Can speakyeah, take a picture, but
that's what they want to do.
Sheva Guy (20:50):
Take a picture of it and say look at our diverse
committee.
Minessa Konecky (20:53):
That's and this is what I find really
interesting, because that'swhere I think things are getting
stuck right now, you know, asis the operationalization of
diversity, because, like mm-hmm.
So I read Do you follow?
Oh my god, no motivate onInstagram she's amazing.
Sheva Guy (21:11):
I'm such a loser and I'm not on Instagram.
Minessa Konecky (21:14):
Oh no, that's amazing.
Actually, I used to be like Iwas a social media marketing
Coach and I hated.
I got to a point where I hatedsocial media so much that I
literally shut everything downand just stopped.
And so now, people who are noton social media, I'm just mad.
Respect, because I'm like dude,you never got on it and so you
don't have like the.
(21:34):
It's not like.
It has its tentacles in you.
Sheva Guy (21:35):
You know I'm saying yeah, like it's funny like I
deleted my Facebook when I was afreshman in college, which is
when, like Everybody which Iknow, which is like what
everyone was like on, likethat's when people were on
Facebook.
Minessa Konecky (21:49):
And you were.
You were off of Facebook before.
Being off of Facebook was coolwith a thing.
Yeah, hello.
Sheva Guy (21:54):
I'm a fake.
I'm an off of Facebook hipsterlike these.
Gen Zers have no idea whothey're dealing with.
I've been off of Facebook, yeah, so I'm not like I actually do.
This is actually really funny.
I do have a fake book for theOhio Renaissance Festival, but
that's neither here nor there soI do they're.
Minessa Konecky (22:09):
It's fair, if you're gonna have a, if you're
gonna have a fake book forsomething, it would either be
that for me or Star Trek likeright exactly.
Sheva Guy (22:15):
Yeah, so, yeah.
So I don't have a Facebook, Idon't have an Instagram.
I watch videos on TikTok, butthey're like lame, like mom talk
videos, like parent talk, andthen what else, man, I mean I'm
on Reddit but like I'm amillennial, of course, I'm on
Reddit, I don't do anything.
And then LinkedIn I don't knowhow it happened.
I just I just started writingshit.
Minessa Konecky (22:35):
Your LinkedIn game is fucking on point like.
Sheva Guy (22:38):
I'm no idea what the fuck I'm doing.
I'm writing.
Minessa Konecky (22:40):
Oh, no, no, you're amazing, fab, I see you
all the time.
Yeah, no, instagram, no, no,it's totally fine.
So, but she brought up this.
She said something really likemy opening, right.
She said Quit trying to addcolor to your pictures, we're
not a fucking crayon box.
Yes, and I was like I knowbrilliant, right, and I think
(23:03):
that what I'm.
It made me, and so I read thison a long time ago and it made
me.
It was a.
It made me really think aboutwhen these challenges are coming
from.
And it goes back to People arevery concerned about the
diversity part, but they'remissing a point about why you
want diversity, right?
So it's like it's not diversityfor diversity's sake, it's
diversity because having aTexture of ideas and thoughts
(23:28):
and people makes everyone better, like that's it.
It's just that's.
It's a simple statement, right,right, but they think it's to
check a box and so it's not.
It's hard to imagine why youwould need to take any
additional steps once you've gotsomebody on the.
Sheva Guy (23:42):
They're in the picture like they're in the
picture and what's interestingis and I hate having to do this,
but really what a boy like itis.
It is empirically correct.
It is facts that diverse peopleat the table however you want
to say it that diverse people inorganizations if you have a
diversity of Any, if you haveeither you, your ideas are
renovated.
(24:02):
That's period.
Yet the ideas are gonna be moreinnovative when you're going to
do better and you're going tomake other people better and
Really what it is and the onlyreason I say it this way is cuz
consultants like to hear this.
It's the business case man likeyou, you want to make money.
You need more people here.
These, these white guys aren'tgonna cut it anymore.
They're not coming up with thediverse ideas.
They're the ones that aresaying this is how it's always
(24:24):
been and this is how we're gonnado it, because this is what I
know.
Minessa Konecky (24:26):
No, that's fucking sentence.
More than anything in the worldme Always been, or this is the
way we've always done it.
It's like I Can't, I can't even.
Sheva Guy (24:35):
It's like yeah, I'm the one that's like, well, why,
why?
Yeah, exactly reason, have youreassessed?
Minessa Konecky (24:41):
like I'm always gonna say why, I always like to
ask the question.
It's like, okay, well, if thisis the way you've always done it
, then that must mean it worksreally well.
Explain to me how it works, whyit works and what the benefits
are, and then we'll keep doingit, and maybe it is the way we
need to keep doing things.
But just because and I thinkthat's such a such an important,
(25:02):
important thing to note is thatanytime somebody says that,
it's usually a red flag for meoh yeah, because then that means
you don't actually know whyyou're doing something.
Yeah, actually, I'm curious.
So you're, and I don't know howto say the name of your
certification for changemanagement.
How do you say it?
Proci, proci, thank you.
I went to their website and Iwas like, oh, I love this, and
(25:23):
then it made me want to do that.
But I'm curious.
So you go into organizationsand now classic.
This is classic because I'veseen this in many organizations
that I've been in as aconsultant over the years, doing
other things, not as a changemanager.
Yeah, but like the statement Ihear more than anything, is I
mean I guess it would change,right, or is oh no, I embrace
(25:45):
change, I love change, I'm,we're all about change here.
All right, but then thebehavior, because you know where
I'm going with this.
Okay, because they're like Ifucking love change.
And then like every singlething you suggest.
So we can't do that.
Sheva Guy (25:57):
It's not like, it's like that quote, and I know it's
just like cheesy, but it's likeoh, I love change, you go first
it's, and it's funny.
And the thing that I'm reallygrappling with right now it's
also so funny and not surprising, is you know, I am one of my,
like, my niche is really tryingto make sure that we're
(26:18):
intentionally bringing equityand inclusion into change
management, because in myopinion, they're the same thing.
They're the same thing.
Our equity and inclusionefforts are change management
efforts.
Our change management effortsare equity and inclusion efforts
.
It's a people thing, it's apeople.
It's people and change.
It's just so funny to see howmuch because, like, pros say
they have their methodology andit works, like I mean, it works,
(26:41):
you know.
But there's always things likeI'm always like, why can be
better?
It can always be better Changemanagement people.
They don't want to change.
They don't want to changeeither.
They don't want to change theirmethodology.
I'm like they're like, well,you, they're like we go into
these rooms and say, like weneed to talk about change and we
have big picture and why peopledon't want to change.
And I'm like, well, maybe weshould change our methodology.
How fucking dare you?
(27:02):
We don't need to change.
We don't do that, and I'mempathetic about it because I
get it Like I understand.
We're all human and we areresistant to change, and that is
a fact.
Minessa Konecky (27:15):
You know, and I'm glad you said that because,
like biologically, if we werenot wired to hate change, we
would not have evolved as aspecies, because we all would be
dead.
Because back in the day whenthere were only 1300 people on
the planet, the fact that wecould identify a change in the
weather and identify thatsomething dangerous was coming
is what kept us alive as aspecies.
(27:35):
But I think we try to pretendlike we don't have that
biological imperative and it'slike we have to accept that we
do not like change.
We can accept that it's goodfor us, but we can also accept
we don't like it and that weneed to do some work to work
through whatever that discomfortis.
So how do you what are some ofthe things that you say?
Or work with people to helpthem bridge that space?
Sheva Guy (27:58):
Yeah, I think and it's not, I don't say anything.
And this is where you have toget, and it's hard.
So you have to get people toget there.
Yeah, on their own, you have toget, you have to get that
buy-in.
But you also have to make surethey know, like, if this change
is happening, like it'shappening, especially if it's
(28:18):
like a tech implementation, likethis is happening, so, but we
need to figure out how, likemake how it's happening as
inclusive and as as peopleoriented and participatory as
possible.
We want you to be a part ofthat change and tell us what are
(28:39):
you afraid of?
How do we mitigate that?
What are things that you'renervous about that you think
leadership isn't ready for?
Like how do we train them?
All those things.
And I kind of think about it andthis is also going to sound
silly, but I think about itwhere, you know, I'm trying to
get my three and a half year oldto eat anything, anything.
Just fucking eat something.
Just eat something.
Like, instead of saying, oh, doyou want to eat?
(29:00):
No, if I say, do you want tochange?
Absolutely not, okay, but wecan control how we do it.
So I say, okay, do you want toeat a cheese stick, or do you
want to eat a thing of fruitsnacks?
Because I'm a great mom andthat's when I'm feeding my child
, but it's like that's a fedchild, is a happy child, so
that's what's like.
I give them the choice, so it'slike you're eating.
(29:22):
Yeah, like this change ishappening, but let's work
together to figure out how wecan make it as painless and as
much of an opportunity for youas it can be.
How do we and it's that buy-inand again, I know that's
corporate speak, but it's trueLike if people aren't on board
with it, they're going to be.
(29:43):
They're either going to leavethe organization, potentially
because they're not going to behappy, or they're just going to
completely dissociate and not dotheir jobs well, and that's
what we want to avoid.
We want to work with peopletowards change, as opposed to
saying this change is happeningand this is how it's happening.
No one wants to be told what todo, it's true.
Minessa Konecky (30:01):
I don't.
I, oh my God.
I was an adolescent until I was37, so I really don't like to
be told what to do at all.
Sheva Guy (30:09):
And I'm currently dealing with, like the
aversioning preteen, and it's astruggle.
Minessa Konecky (30:15):
So if you're like autistic, or then you have
defiance right, so I have.
I had a lot of defiance withinme, like, or because it's like
if I didn't understand why,right, so like you'd have an
ADHD thing too, yeah.
Adhd.
You know I have, I have.
I have what I hate to.
I don't hate this word reallyAuti, auti.
I fucking hate the word.
I think it's a terrible word.
I mean, I love my superpowersthat I have because of it, but
(30:38):
the word is just stupid.
Sheva Guy (30:40):
I know I see it and that sounds bad too, cause I see
it and I'm like, can we?
Minessa Konecky (30:44):
really not.
Can we have another word please?
That's not so awful yeah.
So I can never remember whichone is where my defiance comes
from.
But like, I have to know whyand like, and a lot of times
then it's like you know, thenit's almost combative.
You know now that I'm thinkingabout it, I'm thinking about
your kids and I'm like, boy, areyou in for it?
Cause you've got the preteenwho you know.
(31:06):
If you have any neurodivergence, then they're then like they're
going to be and you're going tounderstand it, cause you're
going to be like well, I get it.
I would ask the same question.
So now I have to actuallyanswer.
So you're like um, I love.
So you know you mentionedcorporate speak, which I fucking
hate and you hated too.
Sheva Guy (31:21):
But there's a funny though it's also, but I think
it's also the language thatpeople understand.
Minessa Konecky (31:26):
So it's like it's something that, like, I've
been thinking a lot about.
I used to teach marketing andone of the things that basically
everything's marketing.
You know you're trying tomarket the cheese.
Stick to your kid.
The story I used to give waswhen my brother was little and
he didn't eat when he broccoli.
Right, and me saying you needto eat broccoli cause it's
healthy, for you is not going toconvince him to eat the
broccoli, but me turning it intolittle trees that are running
(31:47):
away from his sadistic desire tomurder them got him very
excited to eat the trees andthey were like, oh, don't kill
me, but he's like I'm going toeat you now.
And it was great, right.
Sheva Guy (31:57):
So we got my kids to eat asparagus Like Bluey knows
what's up.
Minessa Konecky (32:00):
Did he kill the asparagus?
Were they like all yours?
Sheva Guy (32:03):
It was like well, my husband is.
He my husband's a stay at homedad, so he knows more of the
storylines and probably canrecite every single episode when
I think the asparagus was likea magic wand or something.
I'm not really sure if thisgets put on the podcast.
This quote about Bluey and Iget put on blast by Bluey fans.
I'm so sorry.
I haven't seen Bluey live onThursday, though, so that's
happening.
Minessa Konecky (32:23):
I'm very excited.
Sheva Guy (32:24):
I'm very excited.
This must be a parent thing.
So it's a kid show for parents.
Minessa Konecky (32:32):
Oh, I see, Okay .
So basically the kids can watchit, but the parents can get
something out of it too.
It's great, got it Okay?
Sheva Guy (32:37):
I think anybody would love it.
It's just a great show.
Minessa Konecky (32:42):
Fabulous God when I think of the shit that we
watched when we were you watch.
You must have watched Barney asa kid.
I did, you did, I did.
Yeah, my brother did too.
Sheva Guy (32:50):
I have an old puppet.
It's a babybop puppet and mydaughter fucking loves it.
She won't watch it, thank God,but she loves the puppet.
Minessa Konecky (33:00):
I know, yeah, it is.
I remember so vividly thosedays.
But going back to what you weresaying earlier about the
business case, is I think thatactually no, wait, hold on.
I want to go to something else.
First is the opportunity.
I actually like that better.
So you were talking about how,when you're working with staff,
(33:21):
you really want to figure outhow can we turn this into an
opportunity for you, and that'sactually one of the things that
I talk about a lot in terms ofwhen I coach or anything in
general, is how can you turnwhatever it is into an
opportunity for you.
So I really love this.
Can we dive into that a littlebit more in terms of, like, do
you work with people?
In terms, like, when you'rehaving these conversations, in
(33:42):
terms of helping them tonavigate the bridge, Like, okay,
this is an opportunity for youbecause, like, how do you help
them shift that framework?
Oh, I love it Delicious.
Sheva Guy (33:52):
It's so funny that you're saying this, because the
reason why I laugh about thebridge thing is because I
actually literally am giving apresentation today about so we
have our and this again, this isa tech implementation.
So we've got our project teamwho's implementing the
technology, and we've got ourend users.
How do we get them to theproject team, to the end?
And literally the.
(34:12):
I didn't create this graphic,but I still love it.
It's a bridge and the bridge ischange management.
Like change management is howwe get there.
It sounds so cheesy, but it'strue.
It's like we can't.
You know when I think aboutchange management, how I
describe it is.
Let's say, there's this bigchange that happens overnight.
You wake up all of a sudden,you're using a new software and
that's it.
No training, no feedback, noquestions, no preparations all
(34:35):
of those things is what changemanagement does.
And now I forget the originalquestion because I got excited
about the bridge.
Minessa Konecky (34:42):
Oh yeah, no, it was so like I'm sitting here
and I'm like, oh my God, thissucks, and you're like, no, this
is an opportunity.
How do you, how do you help mesee it as an opportunity?
Sheva Guy (34:51):
Yes, great question.
So God damn it.
I said it fuck.
I said great question, greatquestion, great question, thanks
, sheva.
Minessa Konecky (34:58):
Thank you, I know I appreciate it.
Sheva Guy (35:01):
So I actually had a meeting with someone who and he
was like the sweetest guy ever,such a good like, really a good
guy, but he's like a careerconsultant and he, every
question that got asked in thismeeting, great question, great
question.
That's a great question.
So, yeah, so what I do and thisgoes back to my doctoral days
is my my doctorate is in it'snot in a specific content area,
(35:24):
right, it's in a methodology.
It's inclusive methodologiesand participatory methodologies.
And so everything I do isrooted in participatory methods,
and when I say participatorymethods, I mean in research,
because this is where it'srooted.
It's rooted in research.
(35:45):
What you're studying, the peoplethat are in the population that
you're looking at, they're theexperts.
Like we see them as the experts.
They are the experts, they havethe knowledge, they know what
needs to change.
I am a facilitator of thatchange.
I've got a bunch of tools in mytoolkit that can say these are
the things that we can use toget you there, but you are the
content experts and that's how Igo in any change
(36:09):
implementations.
This is a partnership.
This isn't me, the consultantor the researcher or whatever,
swooping in and saying this iswhat's best for your
organization.
I know nothing about yourorganization.
I need you to tell me.
I need to figure out how to beimmersed in this culture, and
the only way I can do that isfor you to be my partners in
this.
So that's why I do everythingin a participatory manner,
(36:33):
working together with peoplethroughout the process.
So I'm not just gonna say thisis how we're gonna communicate
to the organization.
I'm gonna say what channels arebest, what do people like, what
do they need, what do they needfor training, what does your
audience look like?
And they I don't do anythingwithout that partnership.
I'm never gonna be the personthat comes in and says this is
what's best for yourorganization, because I do not
(36:53):
know your organization.
You have to tell me, and I relyon you as that content expert.
You have that expertise.
You're the ones that know.
I'm the one that can help youfigure out how to get there.
I'm the one that can give you abunch of tools for training,
but I need to know what kind oftraining works best for you.
Guys, I can't, you know, I canget you there, I can bring these
methods in, but I need to knowwhat works for you.
So I see myself as having likethis arsenal of methods to help
(37:17):
people make the change happenand see and get to that point
and when people feel like, andwhen they know, not just feel
like they're a part of theprocess, not just gathering
feedback and saying, okay, wegather feedback for the sake of
gathering feedback, like thecheck in the box thing, I'm
gathering feedback, I'm takingthat feedback, I'm using that
feedback.
I'm showing you how I'm usingthat feedback and how we're
changing an event and people geton board because they are part
(37:39):
of the process, as opposed to onthe sidelines watching it
happen.
An example that I use to likeI'm even participatory when I
teach my classes.
I've used, I've built mysyllabus with my students before
I tell my students whatassignments do you think are
best for you for this class.
So a lot of it makes a lot ofstudents uncomfortable.
Why?
Because they're not used tothat.
They're used to a professorcoming in and saying this is
(37:59):
what you're doing in this class,do this paper, do this, do this
, do this, do this.
So that vagueness and thatambiguity is really hard for
them.
But once they get past itthey're like holy shit, I can
make this class what I want itto be.
Yeah, and that's what I do.
And so when I gather feedback,like during, like halfway
through the semester, I'm likeI'm gathering feedback, I gather
the feedback and I say this iswhat you told me and this is how
(38:23):
I'm changing things because ofwhat you told me and I'm showing
you that yeah, and I thinkthat's the key is making sure
people are involved.
I guess.
So got so excited talking aboutthis, oh my God.
Minessa Konecky (38:34):
No, that's amazing.
I love it.
So because you know one of thechallenges that I had over the
years I worked in many, manyorganizations who were not ready
for the change that they youknow, it's always software, so I
do a lot of implementations,and that's why?
Sheva Guy (38:45):
yeah, that's what I do at my job.
Minessa Konecky (38:46):
Yeah, and they're almost never ready and
they almost never want to spendthe time necessary to be able to
prep, to be able to have a goodonboarding.
And I think that, oh my God,dude, there is a fucking
hummingbird right by my God.
I gotta tell my wife Do it, Idon't know, it's on the porch
there.
Sorry, I know you're good.
Sheva Guy (39:10):
We have a little hummingbird.
Are we get so excited?
Minessa Konecky (39:12):
We don't see them often, so Neither do we,
and it's so exciting and sinceshe started transitioning, we've
become crazy lesbians who lovebirds.
We are like we are diving intoour lesbian lifestyle.
Like I just watched a video.
Sheva Guy (39:24):
I don't know if you follow, if you watch any of Ryan
George's videos, either onTikTok or YouTube.
Okay, so he does like the firstperson to ever and I just
watched a video because thefirst person ever own a bird and
he's like I put this bird, Iput the dude comes.
He's like what is this?
He goes, this is my friend andI am holding him in captivity.
He didn't pass anything, I justcaught him, but I, the cage I
built him caught.
I'll send it to you.
I just watched it.
(39:44):
That's the biggest.
Absolutely I will follow theperson, love it, love it, love
it.
I used to keep chickens, funfact.
So my sister keeps chickens, mysister keeps chickens.
Minessa Konecky (39:53):
And then, oh my God, one day she came out and a
chicken had been murdered bysome sort of?
Sheva Guy (39:57):
Oh, that happens.
Minessa Konecky (39:58):
Oh, she was very upset.
Well, her kid found it was awhole thing and it just happened
.
You know circle of life and allthat and again, growing up in
Pakistan we've seen many, many,many chickens die.
But her kids, it was new forthem so this was like good.
Sheva Guy (40:10):
You got to prepare the kids for that.
Yeah, we got them prepared, weended up.
So we we had chickens for awhile and we ended up when we
started getting licensed forfoster care.
It was when we ended upbringing and it sounds like I'm
bringing them to a farm.
No, we actually brought them toa free range farm.
Minessa Konecky (40:24):
Did you take them to the farm to live all the
rest of their life?
Sheva Guy (40:27):
No, we really did.
Some of them had chicks, whichwas so cute, so we couldn't have
a rooster because we lived incity limits.
But so when we started we hadto have a home study for foster
care and our chicken coop.
We don't live in this house now, but our chicken coop was not
in Ordinance because it was tooclose to the property line.
But my neighbor didn't carebecause she was family and she
was like, yeah, let's dowhatever.
So we had to.
So you had to do the licensurething in my house.
(40:48):
Correct they were, yeah, correctThey'd be.
Like they have to figure it out, so we had to.
You know, I tell my boys likeit was 100% worth it to get rid
of the chickens, but stop actinglike asshole pretains right now
.
You know what I mean.
Minessa Konecky (41:03):
It's so fun.
Yeah, Can you like?
Sheva Guy (41:05):
next.
They're always like can we havemore chickens?
I'm like I'm not dealing withthat anymore, if you want to
clean it and do all that shit,fine, but I'm not doing it.
Minessa Konecky (41:11):
That's you know it's sort of like, once you've
done it, you're like okay, I'vedone that, I've been there, done
that Exactly.
It was so great to have you.
I love talking about thesethings, and you know what it's
funny, like I was like, oh myGod, we only got to like two or
three of my questions because wejust kept going.
Sheva Guy (41:24):
I know I feel bad.
I was like go ahead and hand it.
Minessa Konecky (41:26):
I was like this is what happens when you have
two people with ADHD who bothknow, they have.
Adhd and are totally notmasking, because I don't mask,
you don't mask.
I'm just like, let's just do thething.
So I love it.
I think it's great and Iactually love it when we don't
get to any of my questions,because that means our
conversation was totally organicas opposed to like I have the
questions as a backup.
But here's the thing myindustry research administration
(41:50):
is an industry that is ripe forchange management right now,
like they're looking for peoplelike you.
So I know that there are goingto be many people who listen to
this who are like oh my God, howdo I get in touch with Sheva
and work with her?
So tell me all the things abouthow people can find you.
Sheva Guy (42:03):
Yeah, so you can direct them to my LinkedIn.
I can give you my website, too,where people can like book time
to meet with me, but just likereach out on LinkedIn.
Minessa Konecky (42:10):
I'm there, it's true, it's true, she is there a
lot and follow her, connectwith her and look at all the
stuff that she posts because,honestly, dude, your anti-racism
content is spot on.
It's solid.
I love, love, following you.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us today.
Sheva Guy (42:24):
I really, really appreciate it.
Seriously, this is
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