January 10, 2024 • 34 mins
Have you ever felt the sting of being undervalued? Ashley Robyn, the acclaimed author of "Maybe We're All Diamonds," joins us to share her courageous tale of self-advocacy in the face of injustice. We wade through the murky waters of workplace boundaries and the art of claiming your worth. Ashley's personal triumph over a slashed salary and increased workload, set against the backdrop of her powerful book on toxic relationships, is nothing short of inspiring. Her experiences shine a beacon on the subtle, yet damaging discrepancies between company slogans and their actual treatment of employees.
Navigating the treacherous terrain of toxic workplace cultures can be a solitary endeavor, but with the right insights, one can emerge stronger and more aware. Ashley and I dissect the warning signs of such environments, from the dreaded 'golden handcuffs' to the gaslighting that corrodes professional growth. She also offers a sneak peek into her upcoming book, a guide designed to illuminate the early indicators of a harmful company atmosphere. Moreover, we celebrate the cathartic journey of storytelling, both personal and communal, and how it can foster deep connections and healing.
Topping off this heart-to-heart, we dig into the significance of honoring personal victories and the empowerment found in self-validation. Listeners are invited to relish the transformative impacts of such milestones, as I reflect on the liberating shift from a turbulent marriage to the fulfilling world of freelance writing. We wrap up with a heartfelt discussion on the promise of collaboration and the enduring value of friendships carved from shared struggles. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for those seeking to fortify their professional lives and personal narratives with authenticity and conviction.
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http://www.stopshoulding.me
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🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
This is one of my favorite albums of all time.
👉 Check it out: https://karacter.bandcamp.com/album/karacter
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You, you, you.
(01:04):
Hello, everybody, welcome tothe podcast.
(01:33):
Stop shutting all over yourself, and I'm gonna start the
podcast by not shutting all overmyself.
I have my friend here, ashleyRobin, who wrote a fabulous,
fabulous book called maybe worlddiamonds, and I invited her on
this podcast and we dove rightin talking like right away, and
I was like, oh wait, let me hitrecord because you know we're
gonna have some good shit.
So I hit record.
(01:54):
We talked for 20 minutes andthen I looked out and I see the
button says record and I'm likeyou know what that's weird
Shouldn't be having like anumber on it telling me how long
we've been recording.
And we literally hit some greatshit which we'll hit again.
But but you know, I likeactually I like the way you're
looking at this, the universe.
That was just meant for us.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, well, it's still mercury retrograde, like
it is very very Well, okay, soAll right.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So now we know I'm not entirely sure what we
already said, but what I'm gonnasay here is this is that I
found Ashley because there shewas on In there was an Instagram
video.
I'd literally never heard ofher before in my life.
She just shows up randomly as avideo.
She's recording a phone call,which that I thought it was a
really important phone call torecord because it was you having
(02:47):
a conversation with your bossand that you know she'll share
the story afterwards.
But what I thought was importantabout it is it articulated a
really a kind way of of settingboundaries, of sharing what you
deserve, of Owning you'reawesome without, like, being a
(03:07):
jerk about it, right, like Imean you, by the way, you were
being awesome, you were beinggreat, you were awesome.
But it also demonstrated, Ithink, the truth behind a lot of
corporate language about, hey,we're all a family, hey, and I
found it to be a really justtelling video.
So I Would love, love, love foryou to introduce yourself and
(03:29):
sort of tell a little bit aboutlike, tell us a little bit about
that video and how we met, likeI think that's like really a
cool thing.
Let's.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think this is a way more beautiful place.
Yeah, you found this video andI I will say this first and
foremost I I Cannot say enough.
If you feel the need to recordconversation with the bosses or
(03:57):
partner or Any kind ofrelationship because you're
being gaslit and you need to goback to it later, it's just like
remember and think that you'renot crazy and know that it
actually happened.
That's like such a red flagthat you're in a toxic
relationship.
So that's the first thing I Iwas.
(04:21):
I Was working for a company thatI loved, I Adored the work that
I was doing and I really likedthe team that I was working for
Until I didn't like there werecertain things that started to
happen that was just too much toignore and I wrote a book about
(04:43):
leaving toxic relationshipspersonally, that was coming out
in a few weeks and I was seeingthat my, my personal life and
this book that I just wroteabout finding my voice and
leaving a toxic relationship.
I wasn't able to live out thatlifestyle in my career because I
(05:07):
was working in a reallyunhealthy culture at work and
you I guess you could call it aconviction I knew that.
I had a month or two maybe,until my book was being released
, and I just thought I can'tthink.
The conscience put out a bookwhere I'm telling people that I
(05:32):
found my voice and I havefreedom to be who I truly am,
and that I'm not allowing toxicrelationships when I'm working
in this environment and feelingthe way that I'm feeling about
this job and just feeling suchdespair about it.
They reduce our salaries acrossthe board by 20% and I would
(05:58):
continue to stay there for anadditional six months doing more
work With the reduced salary,with the reduced salary, doing
more work than I initially was.
Because people were leaving asour team shrunk, I had to take
on more duties.
In January I receivedpermission, along with the 24%
(06:21):
less pay I said you know I'm asingle mom and I don't have
family, that I can also pay mycar payment, for example.
If I don't have it, it's on meand I have to figure that out
and I'm not willing to putmyself in a position to be
struggling financially.
I did that when I was married.
(06:43):
That's one of the reasons I gotdivorced, one of the many
reasons I got divorced.
So I didn't want to put myselfin that situation and I thought
I love what I do here.
I believe in the work that I'mdoing and I love the client that
we're working with.
I want to continue on.
So can I supplement with somefreelance on the side?
(07:04):
Well, by June, well by May, Iwas feeling like I need to speak
up because it keeps asking meto do more work and I'm not
hearing anything about gettingmy salary back anytime soon.
And at this point I've pickedup enough freelance work that
I'm actually making morefreelancing than I am working
(07:27):
for this full-time job.
So it gave me a little bit ofconfidence to be able to say I'm
hearing and I'm feelingconvicted about putting out a
book that I'm not living true toin my professional life.
It's time for me to speak upfor myself and to ask for what
I'm worth.
So I came to them two weeksbefore the release, after many
(07:51):
weeks of pushback on multiplelevels on my side, just said
you're proposing that I do morework and you're making big
promises to new clients that Idon't feel like we can keep.
I don't have the bandwidth tokeep those promises.
We're a team of two.
Now how are we going to makethat happen on the department
(08:15):
that I was in?
And so I was told we hear youand we want to keep you here.
Your fingerprints are all overthis company.
We want to keep you here.
So what could we do?
And I told them here are thethings that I see, these are the
(08:36):
things that I would like to bedoing, and this is my solution.
And so they said we'll come upwith two different job
descriptions and we'll bringthose to you so that you can
choose which one you want tohave.
And a week later they came tome and I was expecting to see
(08:56):
two different jobs and instead Igot we can't afford you, so
we're going to let you go.
And that like me asking for whatI would work, and I'm not
willing to give you any more ofmy time to breathe and take time
away from my family, take timeaway from just social life.
(09:17):
Friends, I was working nonstopbecause I was involved in,
because I was still full time.
I just was working nonstop, andso I was tired of burnout and I
was tired of it.
I was ready to move on and Ididn't want to be the one to do
that.
(09:37):
I wanted them to have to makethat decision, because it's not
fair to force someone out bymaking them make that call when
they love what they do andthey're good at what they do and
they never receive any negativefeedback.
(09:58):
So if they don't, if they can'tafford me, then they need to
tell me that.
Otherwise I'm gonna, I'm gonnado everything I can to go and
fix this problem.
Yeah, until, like I realizeit's a topic right Like that's a
topic that is, that's like.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I mean, that's the thing is like I'll keep trying,
I'll keep trying, I'll keeptrying, but, like you know,
everybody has to be on boardwith the trying and, like
someone, has to be like fillingyour cup back right, because
otherwise you're just constantlyemptying it out.
Um, you know, I it's sointeresting you say that because
one of the things that I'venoticed happens consistently in
(10:36):
big or small companies is thatyou know, you've got this great
company, everybody feels like afamily, everybody's feeling
great, and then at some point,typically the pressure or
there's, there's like a and youtalked about it a little bit in
our first version of this, soI'm sort of guided.
Yeah, so I'm gonna, I'm takingyou back in there because I
loved, I loved that part of theconversation that you had is
(10:56):
what is it that you thinkhappens in these spaces where,
like, everything's great andthen suddenly it's not?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, Um, well, I was .
I think the biggest takeawayfrom this full experience has
really been just that people canlead any company.
Anybody can lead any company ifthings are going well, because
there's not a lot that you haveto do decision-wise, you just
(11:25):
keep doing what you were doingand and you can kind of go on
autopilot, I think.
But it's really difficult to bea good leader when things get
hard, like revenue being down.
That's a huge issue for anycompany and that's when your
leadership feels really get putto the test.
(11:48):
And if you're putting a giantword like empathy in your
mission statement and you're nottreating people with empathy in
those hard times, there's aproblem.
Yeah, there's a really bigproblem and to me that's that
was the biggest indicator islike when the employees are are
(12:15):
asking if they need to take outpersonal loans to give to the
company so that they can keeptheir job, and the employees are
mentally just so like broken bythe system that they're in that
they don't feel like they canspeak up safely and that just
(12:36):
crushes their souls and I just Ican't get behind that if you've
gotten this thing with empathyand doesn't seem right.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
You know, I feel like a lot of companies tend to have
their mission statements, youknow, the ones that are related
to caring, empathy, alleviatingsuffering, all those things,
right, it's about the client,right?
Or the person on the outside,and not so much on.
You know.
And I think, though, that, likeyou know, because I've had a
very similar experience and it'sinteresting because most of my
(13:09):
toxic relationships in my lifehave been work related it's
really weird, like I just tendto gravitate towards that, and
you know, what I found is thatthey're very like, they care,
like you said, they care abouteverybody right at the beginning
, and then, when, when the goinggets tough, there's like a
(13:31):
scarcity panic, that kind ofsets in, and it's almost like a
child flailing right, and whereit's almost that, where the
person who, the toxic person,because, typically, if you have
a boss or if you have someonewho is, like, done the work and
who is actually empathetic, thenit's going to be a very
different experience from youknow, a boss who is, like, say,
(13:52):
a narcissist.
You know masquerading, you knowin empathy, clothes, right and
so, and then now, like, thingsget hard and the mask falls off
and now, suddenly, it's like yousee someone's true colors.
So I think, and I think, likeyou said, money makes it easier
for people to be nice or forpeople to ignore things that are
bad.
Because you're making so muchmoney, it'll allow you to look
(14:13):
the other way, even as anemployee, if the circumstances
aren't great.
Because you've got the wholegolden handcuffs and you
mentioned the last time wetalked that you were actually
writing another book on this andso because, like, it moved you,
so tell me, I'd like to know alittle bit more.
Because, like, the hardest partfor somebody who's in a toxic
workplace is that they don'tknow that they're in a toxic
(14:34):
workplace, they think this isjust how it is and they're also
being gaslit and capitalism isset up so that the community
will regulate itself and like,keep everybody believing that
everything's fine.
So you mentioned earlier one ofthe flags is, you know, if you
feel like you need to recordthings, which, admittedly, is
like at that point, if you wereat that point, there were like
several points along the waywhere you were sort of some
(14:55):
curious to know.
You know what are some of thosethings along the way as you
write your next book wherepeople earlier on may be able to
identify that this might not bea healthy place to be or
healthy for them.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, I think well you have to be really sensitive
to those feelings and trust themwhen you're picking up on that
stuff.
So I think, like for me, a bigred flag is saying that you're
(15:32):
about something and then notactually following through.
So if values, company values ormission statements aren't
aligning and that's already abig question mark because the
culture doesn't reflect itpeople not feeling safe to speak
up and ask questions likethoughtful questions that show
(15:55):
that they really care about thecompany and the forward motion
of the business.
Being told that it's notactually a priority or that
they're overstepping by askingor, I think, probably being told
(16:21):
.
I think a lot of it just keepscoming back to gaslighting.
I'm talking to like really,really lies in my head like what
is it?
And it really is just like it'sa gaslighting culture and it's
like wanting resources beingtold we want to support your
(16:42):
professional development andthen not being for resources and
being told no, and being toldyou're going to move into this
promotion and this is theposition you're going to have,
and then a white man coming andtaking that job from you instead
.
And you're still here Likethere's being held back, feeling
(17:04):
silent, feeling like you can'tget the support.
You're being like you're askingfor support.
You can't get the resources youneed.
Yeah, your job better, but theyexpect you to pull rabbits out
of hats all the long and there'snowhere.
There's nowhere to find therabbit.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
You know, I think others like as you're talking
about, I'm thinking of, likesome of the other red flags that
have popped up.
You know where it's like, Ithink, where people are
constantly being asked to beteam players and take on more
work because there's highturnover, right, and so now
people are having to take onmore work, but there's not a lot
, there's not more pay, there'salso no end in sight for the
(17:46):
more work.
So now you have like, and thesepeople then tend to get burned
out.
You know I think you said thisearlier.
I want to come back to thatbecause I think it's so
important is like trust yourfeelings, because, like one of
the things that my wife and I mywife said this this is really
interesting.
So when you know where my wifeand I are both transitioning and
(18:07):
she uses her pronouns pronounswhere she her and when she talks
about people misgendering hershe said to me it's really funny
because you know she didn'tused to have be very like.
She wasn't, she didn't buy intothe woo very much now, but now
she like really buys into thewoo, which is great.
We have all these wooconversations now.
(18:28):
It's fabulous.
But early on she said that she,you can tell when someone's
trying.
So like, even if someone messesup, you can tell when someone's
trying.
And up until she said that tome, I had also been able to tell
when someone's trying.
But I always felt silly saying,listen, I know if you're trying
and I know if you're not right,because it's that, but you can
tell right.
And it made me realize that somany of us have these
(18:51):
superpowers to be able to sortof just tell if someone is being
disingenuous, if someone ismistreating us because of
character, a physicalcharacteristic, or you know, we
know right, and but then wegaslight ourselves or if we
bring it up, they will gaslightus.
And so I want to go back towhat you said earlier, which is
(19:12):
really that if you have a gutfeeling, or if you have your
spidey senses or tingling, don'tgaslight yourself into thinking
you don't have spidey senses.
You have spidey senses.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You do and you know it's.
It's really important to trustyour intuition.
It's there for a reason and Ithink we silence it so often in
the name of keeping the peaceand not rocking the boat.
But but it's a gift from God tohave that and and I think that
(19:45):
you know you're absolutely right.
Like people, if people aremaking a really good situation
and you feel icky about it,there's a reason you feel icky
about it.
If you leave any situationfeeling drained, in a negative,
awful way, that's your red flag.
(20:06):
It's not a good fit for you.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So what now?
You know it's.
It's interesting because, like,as we think about that, like
for not not, you and I were bothin.
You know we talked about thislast time that we've both been
really fortunate, have had theprivilege of being able to build
that confidence from makingmoney, from freelancing or doing
other things.
That gave, that, built afoundation under us that a lot
(20:31):
of us take some of those nextsteps, you know.
So I'm curious, like if youlike, if someone is in that
position and they're like shit,I don't have that.
How do I move into, like somesort of different space?
And I guess this is going to goback sort of to your book
because, as you know, as youstart to realize you're in a
toxic situation, how do youbegin to plan for your eventual
(20:54):
departure from it, whether it'swork or personal?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Well, you mentioned human design earlier and I think
it was interesting because Ididn't know this about myself
until I found out that I was areflector.
But I think it took me a longtime to make that decision.
I, because of the type ofperson I am, I want to feed all
of the information.
(21:20):
I want to know without a shadowof a doubt that whatever I'm
choosing to do is fully informedand I have the right
information.
And so it takes me longer, Ithink, to recognize and to leave
those toxic relationships, Notbecause I don't like.
I know that they're not rightfor me, but it's because I want
(21:43):
to make sure that I dideverything I could on my side,
that my side of the street isclean and I have done what I
need to do, and so I wait and Igather the data and.
I take the notes and I recordthe videos and I, you know, I
have the history laid before meso that I can see I showed up
(22:05):
here, here, here.
This is how they showed up andthis is the pattern.
Now the pattern looks toxic.
Now I have confirmed that thepattern is toxic.
Now I know that it is time tomove on.
So in the case of the job thatI was laid off from, I, like two
or three weeks before I gotlaid off, I told some friends if
(22:26):
they don't get it together byJune 30th, I'm going to jump
without a net.
I'm just going to do it, andwhen they called me on June 9th.
They said your last day is June30th.
The universe is hilarious and Ihate that.
I had to feel like you know,the panic and the blindsided
(22:47):
feeling of being like off, evenwhen I knew it was coming.
I didn't know it was comingthat day.
I thought I would be more incontrol of it.
It didn't happen how I wanted.
That's very upsetting.
It's very disorienting to belaid off, but I had to have that
experience.
I had to have that experiencebecause I think number one it
(23:12):
really helped me to relate toother people who have gone
through those really painfulthings, if I have also
experienced them.
So in my book I write aboutdivorce, walking away from toxic
parents, a miscarriage.
Now I've experienced being laidoff Like these are big life
things that happen to people andthey're painful for people.
(23:35):
And now that I have thisexperience and I have found a
way out for myself, I feelbetter equipped to talk to other
people and to encourage them ontheir path.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
You know it's interesting in your book, you do
, and I recommend everyone getthe book, just definitely get
the book.
It's like so good and as I wasreading it, you know, I felt
like you know, so it was reallyinteresting because, like, first
of all, I feel like you'retelling me a story, like in
front of me, so like we'retalking, and as certain things
happen I'm like, oh no, girlsdon't do that.
(24:11):
And oh no, stop.
You know, just because you seeit happening.
And once you've actually beenthrough the experience, you know
, of that kind of toxicity, youcan pick up on all the signs and
you're like, oh yeah, I see itthere, I see it there, and you
know, I think what was reallygreat about your book is that it
kind of, if someone reads itand they're in a toxic
relationship right now, they'llbe able to pick up on those
(24:33):
signs, like right away, like youknow, because they're very,
they're very obvious once youknow what they are.
But then if somebody, someoneis, you know, and then of course
that starts their journey.
But like I think we talkedearlier about how lonely it is
to be in those relationshipsbecause you're gaslit by the
person that is supposed to betaking care of you or supposed
(24:56):
to be providing you withsomething either it's a salary,
it's you know, it's safety andwhatever it is and, honestly,
when a boss or an employer isnot living up to that side of it
like they're supposed toprovide you with a safe working
environment, so like they arenot living up to their side of
the bargain I think you havesuch a poignant roadmap for how
(25:19):
to get out.
You know and like what you didand you're very raw about it.
So we didn't get this, wedidn't get this on this
recording.
So now I'm going to ask thequestion, because your book is
raw and it's it's like, it'sit's honest and but it's also
like it takes you to that placewhere you're like okay, I can do
this too.
(25:39):
Were you scared writing it?
I was terrified.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I was terrified.
I think like, well, for one,writing a memoir is a very
personal experience.
You're really sharing a lot ofthings that maybe don't want
people to know, like there's alot of ugly, that I had worked
(26:06):
most of my life to deep underthe rug and to not let people
see.
But it's a bit of a feeling,exposed, I guess.
But I think that the best thingthat I did for myself was write
that, because I started justwriting for my own healing but
(26:29):
then I, when I realized this isthis may be help helping other
people too, that just made itworth so much more the all the
heartbreak and the grief and thepain and the crying on the
bathroom floor like all of thatwas worth something, because now
(26:50):
I have something that maybewill help other people, and so
here exists always.
But you move through it becauseyou know that you have something
to offer, something to givesomeone to help, and it's a work
(27:15):
of art.
It's a work of art.
It's like a music paintingMusic painting.
I write books.
This was my first one and Ilearned a lot, and I feel like I
learned a lot about myself.
I think everyone should write abook.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I'm writing my book.
I'm writing a book.
Yes, I joined a tiny bookcourse recommended to you by
Judy Harrington, and I'm writinga tiny book.
This weekend is buckling downand the purpose is to write a
short book.
Get it out quickly.
I'm excited about doing that,just so I can say what you just
did.
You said, oh, my first book.
(27:51):
And I'm like, whoa, we're all afirst book.
Now you're writing your secondbook.
I'm like that's what happenswhen you write a book.
You're like I can write asecond and a third.
I want to do that.
I'm curious how do you feel nowthat it's published?
I mean because, first of all,dude, you wrote a book.
Congratulations, that's fuckingamazing.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I don't know if I've celebrated it.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
My wife has been telling me for years that I
don't take victory laps, andshe's like you never take a
victory lap.
It's part of my trauma response, which is that what's next?
What's next?
You just always got to be doingsomething.
Part of it is because, as longas you're doing something,
nothing bad will happen.
I'm not entirely sure thatthat's actually true, but it's
(28:35):
what I feel inside, so let's gowith it.
She really has taught me thevalue of taking a victory lap,
and it has absolutely made sucha difference.
Now I feel like we're going tohave to have you on in another
six months and see what you didto celebrate.
Has your life changed at all?
(28:55):
Do you find that random peoplemessage you?
How has your life changed sincewriting the book?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
It hasn't changed all that much.
I guess I feel like I am alwayshonored when someone will reach
out and say how the book hastouched them or helped them
through something.
It's been a few months now andI still get those messages
(29:27):
regularly.
I had someone that said thankyou for writing this, that said
it's helping me to realize I'mnot crazy.
I'm not the crazy one.
I really feel like I set out tohelp one person and I've
already seated that number.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I can say two for sure that person who messaged
you and me, everyone else who'sno doubt also messaged you.
I think really the hardest partis finding a mirror to be able
to see what it is, because it'sso hard to see it when you're in
it and you think you are crazy.
That's really the key isthinking that you are crazy,
(30:13):
getting to a space where I canvalidate myself.
I don't need someone else tovalidate that this is happening
to me.
I am enough validation.
I find sometimes that I forgetthat I've done that work and
I'll start to seek out.
Do you ever find that you startto slip and you're like, oh no
wait, I did all this work.
Can you find your way backquicker?
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, well, yes, I think that I mean, if we're
talking about just recognizingwhat's healthy, I think I have
very much condensed thetimeframe.
It took me 14 years in amarriage to realize that this is
(30:58):
unhealthy for me and I need toget out.
With the work situation.
I mean once it started gettingbad.
It only took me nine monthsLook at the growth there.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
That's a lot of growth.
That's the great part.
The next time because here'sthe thing right is that the
people are still going to bethere, the situations are still
going to happen.
Life is life, but now we'reable to see the signs sooner and
sooner and sooner until at somepoint you get to the point
where you've done it enough, towhere you're just like oh yeah,
(31:32):
I know you, I know you.
No, thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I've been there before All right.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I would love to know to my audience.
First of all, I'm going to putthe link to your book in here,
because the book is amazing.
Everyone should read it.
You also have a lot of otherfun stuff.
Where can people find you?
I actually also like it if youwouldn't mind sharing a little
bit about.
You said you're a freelancerand I love to connect people
with the resources that theyneed.
(32:02):
Maybe, before we dive into howthey can find you, tell me about
your freelance business.
What do you?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
do.
Well, I am freelance writingmostly and consulting for people
like social media marketing,that sort of thing.
It's fine.
I don't know.
I'm still figuring it out afterhaving been laid off.
I look at the people that I getto work with right now.
(32:30):
I'm really grateful for thatwork.
I don't know where that's going.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Hey, dude, I love it.
Just do the thing and we'll seewhere it goes.
Let's say, someone's like dude,you've told me enough to where
I'm curious about.
I may want to hire you to dosomething.
Where would they?
How would they just send you anemail or find you on Instagram?
That's what they ask me aboutSharelove everywhere.
Right, that's it.
Yeah, that's it.
(32:55):
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
You was absolutely amazing.
I'm so glad that you have yourvoice back and that everybody is
going to get to hear from you.
You are absolutely fabulous.
Are there any parting wordsyou'd like to leave for my
friends?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I'm just really grateful that you've had me in
this time.
I'm so glad that I got a friendin you and it's been a huge
honor to be here with you todayand I'm grateful for knowing you
.
You, you, you.
(01:04):
Hello, everybody, welcome tothe podcast.
(01:33):
Stop shutting all over yourself, and I'm gonna start the
podcast by not shutting all overmyself.
I have my friend here, ashleyRobin, who wrote a fabulous,
fabulous book called maybe worlddiamonds, and I invited her on
this podcast and we dove rightin talking like right away, and
I was like, oh wait, let me hitrecord because you know we're
gonna have some good shit.
So I hit record.
(01:54):
We talked for 20 minutes andthen I looked out and I see the
button says record and I'm likeyou know what that's weird
Shouldn't be having like anumber on it telling me how long
we've been recording.
And we literally hit some greatshit which we'll hit again.
But but you know, I likeactually I like the way you're
looking at this, the universe.
That was just meant for us.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, well, it's still mercury retrograde, like
it is very very Well, okay, soAll right.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So now we know I'm not entirely sure what we
already said, but what I'm gonnasay here is this is that I
found Ashley because there shewas on In there was an Instagram
video.
I'd literally never heard ofher before in my life.
She just shows up randomly as avideo.
She's recording a phone call,which that I thought it was a
really important phone call torecord because it was you having
(02:47):
a conversation with your bossand that you know she'll share
the story afterwards.
But what I thought was importantabout it is it articulated a
really a kind way of of settingboundaries, of sharing what you
deserve, of Owning you'reawesome without, like, being a
(03:07):
jerk about it, right, like Imean you, by the way, you were
being awesome, you were beinggreat, you were awesome.
But it also demonstrated, Ithink, the truth behind a lot of
corporate language about, hey,we're all a family, hey, and I
found it to be a really justtelling video.
So I Would love, love, love foryou to introduce yourself and
(03:29):
sort of tell a little bit aboutlike, tell us a little bit about
that video and how we met, likeI think that's like really a
cool thing.
Let's.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think this is a way more beautiful place.
Yeah, you found this video andI I will say this first and
foremost I I Cannot say enough.
If you feel the need to recordconversation with the bosses or
(03:57):
partner or Any kind ofrelationship because you're
being gaslit and you need to goback to it later, it's just like
remember and think that you'renot crazy and know that it
actually happened.
That's like such a red flagthat you're in a toxic
relationship.
So that's the first thing I Iwas.
(04:21):
I Was working for a company thatI loved, I Adored the work that
I was doing and I really likedthe team that I was working for
Until I didn't like there werecertain things that started to
happen that was just too much toignore and I wrote a book about
(04:43):
leaving toxic relationshipspersonally, that was coming out
in a few weeks and I was seeingthat my, my personal life and
this book that I just wroteabout finding my voice and
leaving a toxic relationship.
I wasn't able to live out thatlifestyle in my career because I
(05:07):
was working in a reallyunhealthy culture at work and
you I guess you could call it aconviction I knew that.
I had a month or two maybe,until my book was being released
, and I just thought I can'tthink.
The conscience put out a bookwhere I'm telling people that I
(05:32):
found my voice and I havefreedom to be who I truly am,
and that I'm not allowing toxicrelationships when I'm working
in this environment and feelingthe way that I'm feeling about
this job and just feeling suchdespair about it.
They reduce our salaries acrossthe board by 20% and I would
(05:58):
continue to stay there for anadditional six months doing more
work With the reduced salary,with the reduced salary, doing
more work than I initially was.
Because people were leaving asour team shrunk, I had to take
on more duties.
In January I receivedpermission, along with the 24%
(06:21):
less pay I said you know I'm asingle mom and I don't have
family, that I can also pay mycar payment, for example.
If I don't have it, it's on meand I have to figure that out
and I'm not willing to putmyself in a position to be
struggling financially.
I did that when I was married.
(06:43):
That's one of the reasons I gotdivorced, one of the many
reasons I got divorced.
So I didn't want to put myselfin that situation and I thought
I love what I do here.
I believe in the work that I'mdoing and I love the client that
we're working with.
I want to continue on.
So can I supplement with somefreelance on the side?
(07:04):
Well, by June, well by May, Iwas feeling like I need to speak
up because it keeps asking meto do more work and I'm not
hearing anything about gettingmy salary back anytime soon.
And at this point I've pickedup enough freelance work that
I'm actually making morefreelancing than I am working
(07:27):
for this full-time job.
So it gave me a little bit ofconfidence to be able to say I'm
hearing and I'm feelingconvicted about putting out a
book that I'm not living true toin my professional life.
It's time for me to speak upfor myself and to ask for what
I'm worth.
So I came to them two weeksbefore the release, after many
(07:51):
weeks of pushback on multiplelevels on my side, just said
you're proposing that I do morework and you're making big
promises to new clients that Idon't feel like we can keep.
I don't have the bandwidth tokeep those promises.
We're a team of two.
Now how are we going to makethat happen on the department
(08:15):
that I was in?
And so I was told we hear youand we want to keep you here.
Your fingerprints are all overthis company.
We want to keep you here.
So what could we do?
And I told them here are thethings that I see, these are the
(08:36):
things that I would like to bedoing, and this is my solution.
And so they said we'll come upwith two different job
descriptions and we'll bringthose to you so that you can
choose which one you want tohave.
And a week later they came tome and I was expecting to see
(08:56):
two different jobs and instead Igot we can't afford you, so
we're going to let you go.
And that like me asking for whatI would work, and I'm not
willing to give you any more ofmy time to breathe and take time
away from my family, take timeaway from just social life.
(09:17):
Friends, I was working nonstopbecause I was involved in,
because I was still full time.
I just was working nonstop, andso I was tired of burnout and I
was tired of it.
I was ready to move on and Ididn't want to be the one to do
that.
(09:37):
I wanted them to have to makethat decision, because it's not
fair to force someone out bymaking them make that call when
they love what they do andthey're good at what they do and
they never receive any negativefeedback.
(09:58):
So if they don't, if they can'tafford me, then they need to
tell me that.
Otherwise I'm gonna, I'm gonnado everything I can to go and
fix this problem.
Yeah, until, like I realizeit's a topic right Like that's a
topic that is, that's like.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I mean, that's the thing is like I'll keep trying,
I'll keep trying, I'll keeptrying, but, like you know,
everybody has to be on boardwith the trying and, like
someone, has to be like fillingyour cup back right, because
otherwise you're just constantlyemptying it out.
Um, you know, I it's sointeresting you say that because
one of the things that I'venoticed happens consistently in
(10:36):
big or small companies is thatyou know, you've got this great
company, everybody feels like afamily, everybody's feeling
great, and then at some point,typically the pressure or
there's, there's like a and youtalked about it a little bit in
our first version of this, soI'm sort of guided.
Yeah, so I'm gonna, I'm takingyou back in there because I
loved, I loved that part of theconversation that you had is
(10:56):
what is it that you thinkhappens in these spaces where,
like, everything's great andthen suddenly it's not?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, Um, well, I was .
I think the biggest takeawayfrom this full experience has
really been just that people canlead any company.
Anybody can lead any company ifthings are going well, because
there's not a lot that you haveto do decision-wise, you just
(11:25):
keep doing what you were doingand and you can kind of go on
autopilot, I think.
But it's really difficult to bea good leader when things get
hard, like revenue being down.
That's a huge issue for anycompany and that's when your
leadership feels really get putto the test.
(11:48):
And if you're putting a giantword like empathy in your
mission statement and you're nottreating people with empathy in
those hard times, there's aproblem.
Yeah, there's a really bigproblem and to me that's that
was the biggest indicator islike when the employees are are
(12:15):
asking if they need to take outpersonal loans to give to the
company so that they can keeptheir job, and the employees are
mentally just so like broken bythe system that they're in that
they don't feel like they canspeak up safely and that just
(12:36):
crushes their souls and I just Ican't get behind that if you've
gotten this thing with empathyand doesn't seem right.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
You know, I feel like a lot of companies tend to have
their mission statements, youknow, the ones that are related
to caring, empathy, alleviatingsuffering, all those things,
right, it's about the client,right?
Or the person on the outside,and not so much on.
You know.
And I think, though, that, likeyou know, because I've had a
very similar experience and it'sinteresting because most of my
(13:09):
toxic relationships in my lifehave been work related it's
really weird, like I just tendto gravitate towards that, and
you know, what I found is thatthey're very like, they care,
like you said, they care abouteverybody right at the beginning
, and then, when, when the goinggets tough, there's like a
(13:31):
scarcity panic, that kind ofsets in, and it's almost like a
child flailing right, and whereit's almost that, where the
person who, the toxic person,because, typically, if you have
a boss or if you have someonewho is, like, done the work and
who is actually empathetic, thenit's going to be a very
different experience from youknow, a boss who is, like, say,
(13:52):
a narcissist.
You know masquerading, you knowin empathy, clothes, right and
so, and then now, like, thingsget hard and the mask falls off
and now, suddenly, it's like yousee someone's true colors.
So I think, and I think, likeyou said, money makes it easier
for people to be nice or forpeople to ignore things that are
bad.
Because you're making so muchmoney, it'll allow you to look
(14:13):
the other way, even as anemployee, if the circumstances
aren't great.
Because you've got the wholegolden handcuffs and you
mentioned the last time wetalked that you were actually
writing another book on this andso because, like, it moved you,
so tell me, I'd like to know alittle bit more.
Because, like, the hardest partfor somebody who's in a toxic
workplace is that they don'tknow that they're in a toxic
(14:34):
workplace, they think this isjust how it is and they're also
being gaslit and capitalism isset up so that the community
will regulate itself and like,keep everybody believing that
everything's fine.
So you mentioned earlier one ofthe flags is, you know, if you
feel like you need to recordthings, which, admittedly, is
like at that point, if you wereat that point, there were like
several points along the waywhere you were sort of some
(14:55):
curious to know.
You know what are some of thosethings along the way as you
write your next book wherepeople earlier on may be able to
identify that this might not bea healthy place to be or
healthy for them.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, I think well you have to be really sensitive
to those feelings and trust themwhen you're picking up on that
stuff.
So I think, like for me, a bigred flag is saying that you're
(15:32):
about something and then notactually following through.
So if values, company values ormission statements aren't
aligning and that's already abig question mark because the
culture doesn't reflect itpeople not feeling safe to speak
up and ask questions likethoughtful questions that show
(15:55):
that they really care about thecompany and the forward motion
of the business.
Being told that it's notactually a priority or that
they're overstepping by askingor, I think, probably being told
(16:21):
.
I think a lot of it just keepscoming back to gaslighting.
I'm talking to like really,really lies in my head like what
is it?
And it really is just like it'sa gaslighting culture and it's
like wanting resources beingtold we want to support your
(16:42):
professional development andthen not being for resources and
being told no, and being toldyou're going to move into this
promotion and this is theposition you're going to have,
and then a white man coming andtaking that job from you instead
.
And you're still here Likethere's being held back, feeling
(17:04):
silent, feeling like you can'tget the support.
You're being like you're askingfor support.
You can't get the resources youneed.
Yeah, your job better, but theyexpect you to pull rabbits out
of hats all the long and there'snowhere.
There's nowhere to find therabbit.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
You know, I think others like as you're talking
about, I'm thinking of, likesome of the other red flags that
have popped up.
You know where it's like, Ithink, where people are
constantly being asked to beteam players and take on more
work because there's highturnover, right, and so now
people are having to take onmore work, but there's not a lot
, there's not more pay, there'salso no end in sight for the
(17:46):
more work.
So now you have like, and thesepeople then tend to get burned
out.
You know I think you said thisearlier.
I want to come back to thatbecause I think it's so
important is like trust yourfeelings, because, like one of
the things that my wife and I mywife said this this is really
interesting.
So when you know where my wifeand I are both transitioning and
(18:07):
she uses her pronouns pronounswhere she her and when she talks
about people misgendering hershe said to me it's really funny
because you know she didn'tused to have be very like.
She wasn't, she didn't buy intothe woo very much now, but now
she like really buys into thewoo, which is great.
We have all these wooconversations now.
(18:28):
It's fabulous.
But early on she said that she,you can tell when someone's
trying.
So like, even if someone messesup, you can tell when someone's
trying.
And up until she said that tome, I had also been able to tell
when someone's trying.
But I always felt silly saying,listen, I know if you're trying
and I know if you're not right,because it's that, but you can
tell right.
And it made me realize that somany of us have these
(18:51):
superpowers to be able to sortof just tell if someone is being
disingenuous, if someone ismistreating us because of
character, a physicalcharacteristic, or you know, we
know right, and but then wegaslight ourselves or if we
bring it up, they will gaslightus.
And so I want to go back towhat you said earlier, which is
(19:12):
really that if you have a gutfeeling, or if you have your
spidey senses or tingling, don'tgaslight yourself into thinking
you don't have spidey senses.
You have spidey senses.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You do and you know it's.
It's really important to trustyour intuition.
It's there for a reason and Ithink we silence it so often in
the name of keeping the peaceand not rocking the boat.
But but it's a gift from God tohave that and and I think that
(19:45):
you know you're absolutely right.
Like people, if people aremaking a really good situation
and you feel icky about it,there's a reason you feel icky
about it.
If you leave any situationfeeling drained, in a negative,
awful way, that's your red flag.
(20:06):
It's not a good fit for you.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So what now?
You know it's.
It's interesting because, like,as we think about that, like
for not not, you and I were bothin.
You know we talked about thislast time that we've both been
really fortunate, have had theprivilege of being able to build
that confidence from makingmoney, from freelancing or doing
other things.
That gave, that, built afoundation under us that a lot
(20:31):
of us take some of those nextsteps, you know.
So I'm curious, like if youlike, if someone is in that
position and they're like shit,I don't have that.
How do I move into, like somesort of different space?
And I guess this is going to goback sort of to your book
because, as you know, as youstart to realize you're in a
toxic situation, how do youbegin to plan for your eventual
(20:54):
departure from it, whether it'swork or personal?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Well, you mentioned human design earlier and I think
it was interesting because Ididn't know this about myself
until I found out that I was areflector.
But I think it took me a longtime to make that decision.
I, because of the type ofperson I am, I want to feed all
of the information.
(21:20):
I want to know without a shadowof a doubt that whatever I'm
choosing to do is fully informedand I have the right
information.
And so it takes me longer, Ithink, to recognize and to leave
those toxic relationships, Notbecause I don't like.
I know that they're not rightfor me, but it's because I want
(21:43):
to make sure that I dideverything I could on my side,
that my side of the street isclean and I have done what I
need to do, and so I wait and Igather the data and.
I take the notes and I recordthe videos and I, you know, I
have the history laid before meso that I can see I showed up
(22:05):
here, here, here.
This is how they showed up andthis is the pattern.
Now the pattern looks toxic.
Now I have confirmed that thepattern is toxic.
Now I know that it is time tomove on.
So in the case of the job thatI was laid off from, I, like two
or three weeks before I gotlaid off, I told some friends if
(22:26):
they don't get it together byJune 30th, I'm going to jump
without a net.
I'm just going to do it, andwhen they called me on June 9th.
They said your last day is June30th.
The universe is hilarious and Ihate that.
I had to feel like you know,the panic and the blindsided
(22:47):
feeling of being like off, evenwhen I knew it was coming.
I didn't know it was comingthat day.
I thought I would be more incontrol of it.
It didn't happen how I wanted.
That's very upsetting.
It's very disorienting to belaid off, but I had to have that
experience.
I had to have that experiencebecause I think number one it
(23:12):
really helped me to relate toother people who have gone
through those really painfulthings, if I have also
experienced them.
So in my book I write aboutdivorce, walking away from toxic
parents, a miscarriage.
Now I've experienced being laidoff Like these are big life
things that happen to people andthey're painful for people.
(23:35):
And now that I have thisexperience and I have found a
way out for myself, I feelbetter equipped to talk to other
people and to encourage them ontheir path.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
You know it's interesting in your book, you do
, and I recommend everyone getthe book, just definitely get
the book.
It's like so good and as I wasreading it, you know, I felt
like you know, so it was reallyinteresting because, like, first
of all, I feel like you'retelling me a story, like in
front of me, so like we'retalking, and as certain things
happen I'm like, oh no, girlsdon't do that.
(24:11):
And oh no, stop.
You know, just because you seeit happening.
And once you've actually beenthrough the experience, you know
, of that kind of toxicity, youcan pick up on all the signs and
you're like, oh yeah, I see itthere, I see it there, and you
know, I think what was reallygreat about your book is that it
kind of, if someone reads itand they're in a toxic
relationship right now, they'llbe able to pick up on those
(24:33):
signs, like right away, like youknow, because they're very,
they're very obvious once youknow what they are.
But then if somebody, someoneis, you know, and then of course
that starts their journey.
But like I think we talkedearlier about how lonely it is
to be in those relationshipsbecause you're gaslit by the
person that is supposed to betaking care of you or supposed
(24:56):
to be providing you withsomething either it's a salary,
it's you know, it's safety andwhatever it is and, honestly,
when a boss or an employer isnot living up to that side of it
like they're supposed toprovide you with a safe working
environment, so like they arenot living up to their side of
the bargain I think you havesuch a poignant roadmap for how
(25:19):
to get out.
You know and like what you didand you're very raw about it.
So we didn't get this, wedidn't get this on this
recording.
So now I'm going to ask thequestion, because your book is
raw and it's it's like, it'sit's honest and but it's also
like it takes you to that placewhere you're like okay, I can do
this too.
(25:39):
Were you scared writing it?
I was terrified.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I was terrified.
I think like, well, for one,writing a memoir is a very
personal experience.
You're really sharing a lot ofthings that maybe don't want
people to know, like there's alot of ugly, that I had worked
(26:06):
most of my life to deep underthe rug and to not let people
see.
But it's a bit of a feeling,exposed, I guess.
But I think that the best thingthat I did for myself was write
that, because I started justwriting for my own healing but
(26:29):
then I, when I realized this isthis may be help helping other
people too, that just made itworth so much more the all the
heartbreak and the grief and thepain and the crying on the
bathroom floor like all of thatwas worth something, because now
(26:50):
I have something that maybewill help other people, and so
here exists always.
But you move through it becauseyou know that you have something
to offer, something to givesomeone to help, and it's a work
(27:15):
of art.
It's a work of art.
It's like a music paintingMusic painting.
I write books.
This was my first one and Ilearned a lot, and I feel like I
learned a lot about myself.
I think everyone should write abook.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I'm writing my book.
I'm writing a book.
Yes, I joined a tiny bookcourse recommended to you by
Judy Harrington, and I'm writinga tiny book.
This weekend is buckling downand the purpose is to write a
short book.
Get it out quickly.
I'm excited about doing that,just so I can say what you just
did.
You said, oh, my first book.
(27:51):
And I'm like, whoa, we're all afirst book.
Now you're writing your secondbook.
I'm like that's what happenswhen you write a book.
You're like I can write asecond and a third.
I want to do that.
I'm curious how do you feel nowthat it's published?
I mean because, first of all,dude, you wrote a book.
Congratulations, that's fuckingamazing.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I don't know if I've celebrated it.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
My wife has been telling me for years that I
don't take victory laps, andshe's like you never take a
victory lap.
It's part of my trauma response, which is that what's next?
What's next?
You just always got to be doingsomething.
Part of it is because, as longas you're doing something,
nothing bad will happen.
I'm not entirely sure thatthat's actually true, but it's
(28:35):
what I feel inside, so let's gowith it.
She really has taught me thevalue of taking a victory lap,
and it has absolutely made sucha difference.
Now I feel like we're going tohave to have you on in another
six months and see what you didto celebrate.
Has your life changed at all?
(28:55):
Do you find that random peoplemessage you?
How has your life changed sincewriting the book?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
It hasn't changed all that much.
I guess I feel like I am alwayshonored when someone will reach
out and say how the book hastouched them or helped them
through something.
It's been a few months now andI still get those messages
(29:27):
regularly.
I had someone that said thankyou for writing this, that said
it's helping me to realize I'mnot crazy.
I'm not the crazy one.
I really feel like I set out tohelp one person and I've
already seated that number.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I can say two for sure that person who messaged
you and me, everyone else who'sno doubt also messaged you.
I think really the hardest partis finding a mirror to be able
to see what it is, because it'sso hard to see it when you're in
it and you think you are crazy.
That's really the key isthinking that you are crazy,
(30:13):
getting to a space where I canvalidate myself.
I don't need someone else tovalidate that this is happening
to me.
I am enough validation.
I find sometimes that I forgetthat I've done that work and
I'll start to seek out.
Do you ever find that you startto slip and you're like, oh no
wait, I did all this work.
Can you find your way backquicker?
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, well, yes, I think that I mean, if we're
talking about just recognizingwhat's healthy, I think I have
very much condensed thetimeframe.
It took me 14 years in amarriage to realize that this is
(30:58):
unhealthy for me and I need toget out.
With the work situation.
I mean once it started gettingbad.
It only took me nine monthsLook at the growth there.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
That's a lot of growth.
That's the great part.
The next time because here'sthe thing right is that the
people are still going to bethere, the situations are still
going to happen.
Life is life, but now we'reable to see the signs sooner and
sooner and sooner until at somepoint you get to the point
where you've done it enough, towhere you're just like oh yeah,
(31:32):
I know you, I know you.
No, thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I've been there before All right.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I would love to know to my audience.
First of all, I'm going to putthe link to your book in here,
because the book is amazing.
Everyone should read it.
You also have a lot of otherfun stuff.
Where can people find you?
I actually also like it if youwouldn't mind sharing a little
bit about.
You said you're a freelancerand I love to connect people
with the resources that theyneed.
(32:02):
Maybe, before we dive into howthey can find you, tell me about
your freelance business.
What do you?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
do.
Well, I am freelance writingmostly and consulting for people
like social media marketing,that sort of thing.
It's fine.
I don't know.
I'm still figuring it out afterhaving been laid off.
I look at the people that I getto work with right now.
(32:30):
I'm really grateful for thatwork.
I don't know where that's going.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Hey, dude, I love it.
Just do the thing and we'll seewhere it goes.
Let's say, someone's like dude,you've told me enough to where
I'm curious about.
I may want to hire you to dosomething.
Where would they?
How would they just send you anemail or find you on Instagram?
That's what they ask me aboutSharelove everywhere.
Right, that's it.
Yeah, that's it.
(32:55):
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
You was absolutely amazing.
I'm so glad that you have yourvoice back and that everybody is
going to get to hear from you.
You are absolutely fabulous.
Are there any parting wordsyou'd like to leave for my
friends?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I'm just really grateful that you've had me in
this time.
I'm so glad that I got a friendin you and it's been a huge
honor to be here with you todayand I'm grateful for knowing you
.
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