November 8, 2023 • 40 mins
Where does fear reside, and how can we conquer it, especially in the pursuit of new opportunities? These are the questions we grapple with as we examine the unique experiences of women of color in the workplace, guided by the wisdom of our guest, Duly Orozco, a licensed mental health counselor. We delve into the power of relationships, the potential for greatness, and the challenges that inhibit us from forging meaningful connections.
Much like an expedition, we set out to explore the vast landscape of diversity, equity, and inclusion. We take a critical look at assimilation in the United States and the alarming implications of anti-Arabic violence. We unfold the importance of representation in leadership roles and expose the inadequacies of a 'one size fits all' approach to diversity initiatives. This journey compels us to understand the individual stories and experiences that shape our identities, both in and out of the workplace.
Finally, we wrestle with our own biases and the discomfort they stir within us. It's a confrontation that invites us to exercise self-compassion and empathy. We explore how to cultivate relationships, the power of vulnerability, and the growth that comes from recognizing and confronting our biases. Join us, as we open the door to these exciting conversations and more with Duly Sierosco. We guarantee it's a conversation that will challenge, enlighten and empower you.
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🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I can't Right.
Well, thank you.
Thank you, lissette, for beinghere.
I'm so excited to introduce youto my audience.
Now I want to share a littlebit about why I thought you were
so special and I wanted to haveyou on the podcast.
We were on the board of theStaff Short Conference for Women
Together and we did an open wedid that open sort of
(00:30):
conversation where women in thePlymouth community and the South
Shore community got togetherand talked about some of the
challenges that they face.
And one of the things you saidwas about how so many of us like
one of the things that thechallenges is about making
friends, building relationshipsand you talked about fear and
(00:52):
about how so many of us areafraid.
We're afraid to be accepted,we're afraid we won't be
accepted, we're afraid of whatother people will think.
There's just a lot of fear thatcomes into our decision making.
That, honestly, is almostsubconscious and I was like, oh,
that's such a deliciousconversation to have.
I wanted to have you on so wecould talk about this idea.
But before we dive straight in,let's introduce you to
(01:14):
everybody and tell us, tell myaudience, a little bit about
yourself.
Where do you come from?
What do you do?
Why do you do what you do?
Tell us about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, so my name is Duly Sierosco.
I am a licensed mental healthcounselor, in license in the
state of Massachusetts, and Ijust say that because
unfortunately it's very limitingbecause of licensing where and
you know where you can do andwhere can you do it.
(01:43):
So I do one on one therapy withwomen of color, not just
Latinas, but women of color ingeneral where I assist them to
really find new perspectives sothey're able to honor their
magic, which I feel that wesuppress so so much, just how
(02:05):
unique we are and how magical weare.
And most recently I alsostarted working with groups of
employees of color and I'mreally loving that.
It just sparked a whole newfire in me.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Oh, my goodness, if you said like a few things there
that I want to talk about, so Iwant to hear about your
employee thing first.
Let's dive into that becauseI'm so curious.
What are you?
So?
Because this is somethingthat's very I feel, very, I feel
very passionately about.
So, going back into corporateAmerica, you know, when I was on
the outside of corporateAmerica, I would see all the DEI
(02:46):
initiative stuff in the newsand people talking about it, but
like I mean, I was doing my ownthing outside so I could be.
You know, I was inclusive in mycommunity and my audience and
so on, so corporate Americadidn't really impact me that
much.
Having gone back into corporateAmerica now, as a person of
color who passes and then whohas so many friends who are
(03:06):
people of color, who are, Iwould love like we have a very
different experience ofcorporate America, I think, than
our colleagues do who are, whoare white, and so I am curious
to know what are some of thechallenges that you're, what are
some of the things that you'refinding that are challenges that
employees of color are facingin the workplace, and how is
(03:29):
like how you know that youmentioned that you're finding a
real fulfilling.
I'm curious to know like whatexcites you about working with
this group and the potential offor greatness there.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, so I say that I was raised as a therapist in a
very conservative way and I wasraised as a human being in a in
also a very conservative way,but but as a therapist I mean
that because you know it'salmost like following the path.
What was the path?
(04:00):
The path was you go to school,you get your license, which for
me was very difficult and justbecause of how the process of
being an international studentwas right and then you know
having to be sponsored by acompany and all of that like the
immigration process behind thescenes, and then what you see,
(04:24):
what you typically see me as, ispeople working in community
mental health setting, which Idid for many years, especially
Spanish being my first languageand being a cultural therapist I
had so many like the level ofpeople that were referred to me
was so high, right, and then mydaughter was born and for for my
(04:49):
family it just didn't makesense financially to give and
it's a very personal decisionbut for us it didn't make sense
to give someone pretty much mywhole salary, so I could, you
know that person, could watchher and I could go work, and
that's when I started my privatepractice and what I always saw
was people you know takinginsurance.
(05:11):
So taking insurance was the wayto do it and I decided not to
take one or two, but everysingle insurance, like I was
part of like 12 insurance,different insurance network,
right, and I was a generalistand I had so many referrals.
Again, I spoke, I speak Spanishis my first language and,
depending on the day, I speakPortuguese or Portugese, it
(05:33):
depends, right, like sometimesit's Portuguese, sometimes it's
like a mixture, but just becauseof that I got so many referrals
.
So in my mind, being atherapist meant doing one-on-one
therapy, right, and notchoosing and not and then like
very organically through COVID.
(05:54):
Well, that's that's.
Maybe that's another story.
I'm not a part of myself, butbasically what happened is that
I was able to see how fear wasstopping me from doing more and
trying new things.
And this, a local corporation,reached out to me and they were
(06:18):
like we have a lot ofinternational employees.
Are you open to have a workshop?
This was December 2020, themiddle of the pandemic, and none
of them could travel to seetheir families.
So they were like, do you wantto do a workshop on how to
approach the holidays?
And I was like, let's do it.
(06:39):
I did it and I realized thatwhat they wanted was to talk.
So when they came back to meand they were like, they love
that, can we do a workshop amonth?
I was like I don't think theywant to hear me talking.
They want to talk amongthemselves, right?
So that was my proposal andI've been working with them ever
(07:00):
since, for the past two yearplus.
But that opened uppossibilities to do workshops
about things that we're afraidto say and we need to say and
what happens, right?
What are your?
So?
Going back to your challenges,the question about challenges I
(07:23):
feel, minesa, that many times wesee in paper or when you see a
website, it's like we areinclusive, we have all this, you
know, like ERGs and diversity,equity and inclusion, and the
reality is not, you know, whenyou really dig into what happens
(07:43):
, that's not the case,unfortunately.
Right, it checks every markwhen you look at it from the
outside, but not from the inside.
So, having an opportunity totalk about what's going on,
which, for me, has beensurprising, really the fact that
people are speaking up, and Ifeel it's because they're tired,
(08:04):
they just you know they cannotsustain this lifestyle anymore.
Yeah, so the challenges thatI've seen are not enough
representation and just themandates that are put up when
(08:27):
something happens, right Likethat, get covered up with more
mandates, like bigger mandates,and that's just, it's collapsing
.
So people are leaving, peopleare very dissatisfied and I feel
that more and more, some ofthem are speaking up, while some
(08:51):
of them feel trapped and whilesome of them feel this is never
going to change.
This is how I've always beentreated.
It's better than what myparents had.
Therefore, you know, I do havea job, while everybody else is
being laid off.
What should I be complainingabout?
And this create all thesecognitive dissonance in your
(09:14):
mind and you feel like crap,right Like.
So that's kind of like theongoing challenge I've seen
which is.
It's just worsening,unfortunately.
Does that answer your?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
question.
Oh my God, so good.
As you're talking, all I couldthink of was I was almost like
you were sharing, like, becauseI remember when I first came to
the state.
So I am an American citizen,but I lived in Pakistan my whole
life until I was 20 something.
So when I came here, Iessentially immigrated.
However, I had the enormousprivilege of already having a US
(09:51):
passport, which meant that Ididn't have to deal with all of
the additional, honestly, traumaand exhaustion, and that comes
from having to prove that youare worthy and OK to be allowed
into the country, right.
So I didn't have to proveanything, I just was able to
come in.
(10:11):
So that's enormous amount ofprivilege, even including that,
even taking that intoconsideration, it's when you
come here and now you thinkabout how your parents grew up,
because, as you said, that thatreally resonated to me, because
I'm thinking to myself.
Ok, my grandparents lived in avery small village in northern
India, right in Bhavendi, and so, and then they moved to Karachi
(10:35):
and they they were afterpartition they were one of the
first families to move toKarachi, to Pakistan, and left a
lot of.
Some of the family came, butsome of them stayed there, right
.
So that's the context that formany of us that we use, right.
So like I'm not working in amud hut, so I'm good, right.
And so now you come here andyou're working in, like we have
(10:55):
electricity and we have.
I mean, we had electricity too,but you know, like they, you
know, at some point in my, my,my ancestral past, we didn't,
and you know, so you werewilling.
I think the framework we bringin is that we're willing to
tolerate a lot less, becausewhere our, our experience shows
Well, and then there's the yousaid earlier I should be
(11:16):
grateful to have a job Likethat's a, that's a big one.
You know, that's a big story.
That is so because it's almostlike you're somebody's, like
literally beating you up andjust saying you should be
grateful that you have a roofover your head.
Yes, I know this hurts, butyou'd be grateful to have a roof
over your head.
And you know it's interesting,because I feel like people are
(11:39):
talking about it now, do you?
I don't think that they'vetalked about it in the past and
I think that now that they aretalking about it, what I'm and
I'm curious to know what yourthoughts are on this, because
this is something that, like, mybrain gets muddy when I think
about it, cause I'm like how dowe solve this problem?
So you have a bunch of peoplewho are in a space that they're
feeling unheard, they're feelingthey're overworked, they're
(12:02):
overwhelmed.
Covid didn't help, becauseyou've got this.
Now you're working from homeand you may not have the
boundary set, and for many of us, we were raised with work
ethics that have you literallyworking till your knuckles are
bleeding and so you will workwithout having that.
I'm shutting the door andleaving the office.
(12:23):
You will work until you dropdead.
What, as somebody who workswith these corporations, do you
feel like the companiesunderstand what's happening, or
see what's happening?
Like what do you think ishappening on that level?
Cause it seems like they'resaying the words.
The people on the bottom aresaying they're in trouble, the
solution isn't actually helping.
(12:44):
So what is actually happeningin that spot?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, so this is relatively new for me, right?
I've been doing this work forthe past two years, which is not
too long.
I feel that I'm learning moreas I go and I haven't had so I
haven't had the chance to workon going with many corporations.
(13:12):
Right, I've worked on goingwith about three or so
nonprofits and also colleges,and I feel that's a whole
different ball game than therepresentation of a firm.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And I see the difference.
So I do see the difference.
To answer your question, and Idon't know if what I've seen is
so.
I don't wanna generalize, right, but from what I've seen, no,
they do not understand.
However, I don't know if partof it is denial, right, like
(14:00):
there's a very naive part of methat wants to believe it's
denial, but what I've seen isthat, or like the bigger part of
me, and it makes me sad to saythis, but I'm gonna say it is
productivity and capitalism andnumbers, right, and even in
(14:22):
mental health coming from amental health background, in a
nonprofit, mind you productivitywas a big part of how the whole
system, the health care system,which I don't think works well
or well enough, right, it wasproductivity and it was an
(14:47):
incentive that was based onwhether or not you meet that
productivity and we got to thepoint where we were encouraged
to double book clients, right.
So it's.
But to answer your question, Iwanna believe that they don't
(15:07):
understand it because they don'tknow what's going on.
But I feel that, unfortunately,they do know what's going on
and they don't care.
Or like the level of turnoveror the level of dissatisfaction
among employees, that's not bigenough to change the culture
(15:30):
right.
However, I see this.
Smaller companies thatcompletely align with my values
and that are like so not everycompany needs to be like that,
but I see that in the like Ifeel that's.
(15:51):
I see that in smaller companiesmeans I feel like this big, big
corporations lack that, and notbecause they don't have good
people there.
I absolutely wanna say thatthere's beautiful, amazing
people there, but sometimesthey're not enough.
(16:11):
What like their efforts are notenough right, or what they're
doing it's not enough and itmight not be as valued and as
appreciated, and it gets to thepoint where they can even be
seen as travel makers or, youknow, like just somebody that is
going against the flow or which.
(16:34):
I've been, I've been all ofthat, I've been named, all of
that.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Oh, I'm all about that.
I'm all about disruption.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
It's like you can't have children to disrupt, but.
I think you know there's anelement of not being afraid.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
You know, in order to do that because, like you said,
some people can't afford to beseen as a travel maker, because
they need to be able to havethat job right, so they can't
speak up.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yes, but unfortunately that only
exacerbates all these beliefsand all these trauma and all
these cycles.
So it's like, yes, I see itright.
And maybe you're a single momand maybe you also have been
harassed by your boss and youfeel that's the thing.
(17:21):
It's like where is that linewhere, even though you're afraid
, you're well-being, you'reemotional well-being, you're
right, like it's like where isthat line and how much are you
willing to take right?
Because there's this part of youthat feels that you cannot
(17:44):
speak up and it's I feel it'simpossible to do it unless you
have the resources.
And where are those resources?
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Which goes back to the capitalism thing, cause,
again, it's like you have toacknowledge that something's a
problem and then alsoacknowledge that, okay, this
resource is needed to solve it,and then provide that resource
in order for that to happen.
Right, and then you havesomeone at the higher levels in
a corporation who has thatperspective.
Then that's just not where themoney or the resources are gonna
(18:18):
go.
You know, and you saidsomething.
You said, oh shoot, what was itthat?
You said?
I'm so good, it was so good.
Hold on, I hate it when thathappens.
You were talking about people.
Oh, you were talking aboutpeople who are like.
You were like where is thatline?
Right, where is that line?
And I think that's such apowerful thing right, cause,
(18:43):
like when you think about anychange in your life, there is
the moment before you found theline and the moment after.
Now it may take you six yearsto leave the marriage or leave
the relationship or whatever,but the moment that you discover
the line, you'll never forgetthat.
That's the moment you decidedI'm done.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
And I'm going and you cannot unsee it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I know right, you can try, you can try and you're
like no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I don't want to see it, I don't want to think about
it, but deep down in your heartyou know that it's there.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Absolutely, and I think you know what you said
earlier about the fact that morepeople are talking about it.
Now, I was.
There's a.
I follow a, vanessa Bennettonline.
She's a therapist and she'sfabulous, and so she did.
I can't remember a video a longtime ago where she was talking
about how she said that we areentering into a space where
(19:38):
people are just tired of otherpeople telling them what to do.
People are tired of having to,you know.
Going back to what you weresaying earlier, actually we're
talking about magic, helping,you know, women of color find
their magic, and that's so muchof it is is of our magic is
inside.
Right, I'm gonna connect thesetwo thoughts together, because I
there's a drawing I have ofmyself that I put on Instagram.
(20:01):
That is me standing there.
It's like a cartoon, me, andjust like sparkles coming out of
my fingers.
Right, because in my mind, Isee my magic like unleashing and
like lighting up a page, andit's like it's such a cute
little picture.
I'm like, oh, I see myself, butthat's literally how I see
what's happening to me now,whereas before I see myself as
having been like almost dulledand grayed out, and so I wanted
(20:23):
to ask you like, and it's onlyof late that I started to
realize how much women of colorhave to suppress their inner
magic.
Like it's it's actually so sad,like it's heartbreaking, right,
because I can remember.
I remember and now so I'mcurious to know why do you feel
like women of color feel like wehave to hide all the things
(20:45):
about us that are magical?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah, there's so many things to this question, but
the first thing I think of it'ssurvival right.
It's like it seems to me thatfor so long, and unfortunately
for some people, even still now,you really need it to blend in
(21:08):
the less attention that youcause, the better Even.
You know, right now there's, atleast with Spanish, and I feel
that it's happening with manyother languages too.
But please tell me what youthink.
You know, I see this almostlike the shame on second, third
generation, because they don'tspeak Spanish, and it's like but
(21:29):
why didn't you did?
Why did this happen?
Right, Like not blaming theirgrandparents, their parents, but
almost like asking why.
And it's because, well, youknow, we didn't want to speak
any Spanish.
Or, like, you know, if we spokeEnglish it was better.
Like less attention.
And I feel that it comes backto this, to blending in the less
(21:53):
attention you cause, the better, right, like, and I feel that
that magic, really the for many,many people, goes back to who
you are and what makes you you.
But what makes me me is partlybeing a Venezuelan immigrant,
(22:14):
like, that's part of me that Icannot, you know, just decide to
forget about that and that'spart of my magic, right, and I
feel that for so many of usperhaps you know, even like I've
talked to some woman about thatworking, finance and that
working and big, big, liketitles, right, and then saying
(22:39):
that they do not dress with thecolors they want to dress, being
Latinas, and you know, like Idon't know like hot pink or
whatever it is, we like color.
But because you know they're inthat environment and they don't
feel and it's, this issomething very, it can't be seen
(23:01):
as something very little, right, like what color of clothes you
want to wear.
But it goes up to how do youwant to wear your hair?
Right, like how, what's thevolume?
Or do you allow yourself to usewhen you're talking?
Because for so many people it'slike why are you screaming?
(23:21):
Or you know, like, why are youmoving your hands so much?
It's like, it's, it's.
I feel that it goes back tosurvival and the more I blend in
, the better.
It was right For me or for myfamily.
And because we've been livingin survival mode for so many
(23:47):
years, there's so muchself-doubt miness in like wait,
like what's gonna happen?
Right, like is this, what do Ieven like?
And I feel that that's a lot ofwhat I do through my workshops.
It's like really exploring thatself-identity piece what's
(24:09):
yours, what's not yours?
You've been told this and that,but is that something?
What do you think?
Right?
Because I feel that there's allthis talk about diversity,
equity and inclusion, which isgreat, but it seems to me that
we don't really get toappreciate and get all the
(24:30):
benefit from that until we trulyknow who we are Like.
Who is it that?
That?
Yeah.
So I feel that we're suppressed, all of that, because we've
been living on survival mode forso, so, so long, trying to
blend in, trying to be okay,being quiet, right and just
(24:56):
being humble, being grateful,all these things.
Does that make sense, minna?
What do you?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
think it does.
And you know the thing thatactually, I think you've given
me like the best segue ever.
This is gonna be such a greatclip, so we're gonna pull this
as a freaking clip, is that?
No, because you said, right,you're talking about blending in
and, like, it gave me a perfectsegue to talk about why
whiteness is a privilege.
Right, because I'm Pakistanibut I look white, I pass, and
(25:24):
that gives me the ultimateprivilege of being able to
completely blend in if I chooseto, which means that I only need
to claim my identity if I wantto.
I don't, and that's a privilege, right.
And so, and in the context ofwhat you just said, that makes
sense as to why that's aprivilege right, cause a lot of
times, people will say, like,why is whiteness a privilege?
Like, what does that do for me,especially if you're not a
(25:47):
person of color at all?
Like, you're just white, whiteright, and you're just like dude
, I don't understand.
I grew up, I had to struggle, Ihad to do all those things.
Like, why is whiteness like?
Why does that be a privilege?
Why can that be a privilege?
And I think the key thing thatyou talked about is that
everybody's trying to blend in,and the better and easier you,
the easier of a journey you haveto blend in right, the more
(26:10):
privilege you have becauseyou're blending in, and so this
is something that's like soimportant for people to
recognize, right.
Because now, on the flip sideof that conversation, okay Is
this I'm not Pakistani enoughbecause I'm not dark enough I
use to talk about, so I speakUrdu.
I grew up speaking Urdu, butthere's a lot in fact, my first
(26:34):
language was Urdu, right, so,like I spoke English a lot of my
life.
But you know, my first word wasHathi, you know.
So that means elephant, and mymom always thought that was
funny that my first word wasHathi.
When I was living in the UnitedStates, I was like it was in.
Like you know, I was living inTexas for like that year, right
before I moved, and so I was inPakistan.
(26:57):
I was never Pakistani enough.
I was always the white one,right, I was always the, and so
there's like a huge for me.
I always felt left out becauseI was like, well, I'm not you
know enough for my culture,right, and then here and so,
like it's really interesting, Ithink, as we talk about these
ideas just in general, the factthat we all have to think about
these in and of themselves addsto it a layer of privilege to
(27:21):
somebody who never has to thinkabout these things, right?
So like I never have to thinkabout whether I'm like because I
like not me, but like I'mtalking about somebody who
literally never has to thinkabout these things, because I
still think about them, just ina different way, and I think
that for me, I suppressed somuch of myself in various ways
because again trying toassimilate, because I came to
(27:42):
the States in 1998 and 2001 wasSeptember 11th right.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
So like almost immediately.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I'm now at Pakistani in the States and people are
always making these terrorismjokes and they're like and
there's a lot.
It was like why do people hateour country?
There's just so like.
At that time it was in my bestinterest to just blend in right
absolutely where it is safer,because people there was a lot
of Anti-arid violence at thetime, brown skin violence, that
kind of thing I mean at the timelike that doesn't happen now.
(28:11):
I know at the time it was veryintense because of that
particular issue.
Right now, where's a wholedifferent volume happening and I
would argue, and intensifiedand accelerated thing that now
People in the workplace have tothink about right, and so the
question I think is is, like youknow, there's an element of so.
(28:34):
For some people, dei is like anactivity that they're doing,
but I think for people of color,dei is more about safety, right
, about feeling safe in theworkplace.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I Feel it depends on the context.
What I've seen is that intheory, it could help them feel
safe, but Unfortunately it couldalso trans.
(29:06):
It could also be seen as acheck mark Right, like oh, our
company, we're doing this, checkright, and you can tell when
that's the case.
And I feel, looking at it fromthat perspective, it almost,
(29:29):
instead of helping you feel safe, I feel that it has the
opposite effect, because youfeel it, you know it, so it's
like oh, no, right, like this is.
Do you know what I mean,vanessa?
What do you think?
Oh, you're muted.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yes, no, I yeah, no, I'm honestly with you because I
think that that's the difference, right, between the DEI
initiatives that work in theones that don't.
Because, like, yeah, I'mapproaching DEI from a space of,
okay, I want to make sure thatmy employees feel safe in this
place, okay, so the first thingI have to do is make sure I have
a person of color on HR, justhave to make sure that that
(30:10):
happens, right.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
so, like, and hopefully every department, but
my yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, I'm just using this example, right, and then I
mean, wait a minute, we needpeople of color in every
department.
But I yes my actual point,though, is that if anybody has
any problems, they have to havesomeone to be able to take it to
right.
So, like I gotta have thatright, what other things do I
need?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
you just said adding, you know, making sure that
there's people of color indepartments leadership positions
, because what right like so Canyou really show that it is
possible For you to grow in thatcorporation as a person of
color?
Not because you're a person ofcolor, but because you're great
(30:54):
at what you do and because youdeserve the Deserve it.
You deserve it, you deserve the, the opportunity of being seen.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
But when you don't see representation, it's, it's
hotter, right, um, I mean youdon't think that like, because
it sends a message You're notthe person we're looking for.
Yeah, so, people of color andleadership, people of color, and
you know, and it has to be, youknow when I think about because
, like, in some places that aresmaller, right, you've got to
like, think to yourself if Ifive people, you know how many
(31:26):
are you, how many people are yougonna have?
Like, and not thinking about itin terms of, oh my god, dude, I
saw this thing the other dayand I thought it was so like.
So somebody posted and saidDon't put you the color on your
staff because of like, we're notspices.
You don't just add us here andbe like, okay, right, and so I
really made me think about it alot, right, and I realized you
(31:47):
know what it's not about spicesand I said you know what it is.
It's about the fact that Eachperson you have forget about
color for a moment, let's justtalk about each person with a
different background, adifferent set of experiences
that you bring into aconversation or a room will
bring that much more Brilliance,that much more problem-solving
(32:11):
ability, that much more depth,because you're getting a lot of
different perspectives.
Absolutely, we're thinkingabout DEI.
We really need to not bethinking about it in terms of
color, race, but differentexperiences, and saying, okay,
well, the only person who couldhave had this type of different
experiences is a black man fromDetroit or is a you know, or
like the black community inBoston or the Pakistani
(32:32):
community here, or anyone Couldhave this if they grew up, you
know, in poverty or whatever.
But like the Experiences.
And then at that point you'reactually going to, by default,
bring in people of a variety ofraces, religions, colors, like
you'll have a spectrum, becauseyou're actually looking for the
different experiences.
(32:52):
But I think right now we're sofixated and I mean life
experiences, I don't mean workexperiences, because if you
leave a work experience, you'regonna put the same list over and
over again.
I'm thinking like you came fromVenezuela, wow, think like I
know how much work you had to doto be able to get into the, to
be able to get the visas, andOver the years, like just how it
, just how the system worksright, mm-hmm, and so that's an
(33:16):
experience I don't have.
Bringing you to the room bydefault makes it a better room.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, and also I Feel that right now, in many spaces
I go, I feel this division.
It's like Us versus them allalmost right, like it's it's
either good or bad.
It's like I Don't want to getinto politics, but that you know
(33:44):
, exact, surveyed all of thisblack and white thinking for so
many people and it's like can wejust what happens when you
listen to each other, right, andwhen you're there's, it's just
like what can you learn?
Like what can I know this mightsound so cliche mean, is
(34:06):
somebody's like, but you know,like what happens when you are
able to listen somebody elsetalking about their life
experience, or listen somebodyelse talking about whatever it
is, but with that level oftolerance and compassion and
(34:32):
Even if, like, it doesn't haveto be anything huge, and many
times that's where the magic is.
But I guess what I'm what I wantto bring is how that opens up
space for you being moretolerant, you learning, you
learn about yourself, becauseyou also learn about what is it
(34:55):
that trigger you or what is itthat you don't like?
You know, you learning that weall have, we're all biased,
right and and saying that I'mnot, it's just not Not true.
Um, but yeah, it's.
It's like everything that canopen up one one that space is a
(35:17):
possibility, and in so manyPlaces right now, it's not even
a possibility, like it's noteven something to consider.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So so let me ask you something.
Actually, you talked about.
I think probably the mostimportant thing was, like you've
said.
I mean, you said a lot, likeyou've said so many important
things.
All this is this entire episode.
It's just clips and clips.
And I looked at the time justnow and I'm like, oh my god,
have we already been talking for45 minutes?
Like how does that happen?
I haven't even asked you asingle question from my list.
This is this is how great.
This love it.
Um, but here I think let's,let's wrap on.
(35:47):
This question is One of themost important things I think we
all need to do, and this is thehardest thing I do in my life.
I think, anytime I do it isconfront our own biases.
So I'm curious to know if we'reall going to walk away from
this and say okay, because wetalked a lot today about DEI and
how people feel.
I think this is such a greatopportunity for people to get to
(36:10):
know a different experience ofthe world and just sort of like,
because I feel like these arethe things we talk about when
we're just talking, not on apodcast, so you get to be a fly
on the wall, but I think thatwalking away, being able to
challenge your own biases, isprobably the greatest gift you
can walk away with, becauseit'll make it easier to create
empathy, to create relationships.
(36:30):
So I'd love to hear from you IfI came to you as a client as a
client or patient, sorry, as apatient and I'm basically I want
to learn how to confront my ownbiases and deal with that awful
discomfort that comes when yourealize you have a bias.
How do we navigate thatuncomfortable space?
(36:51):
And like, how would yourecommend somebody work through
some of that?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah.
So I would say first of all andI say this for so many things,
but I don't get tired of sayingit you don't have to do it on
your own Right.
Like I feel that so many of uswere so good at convincing
ourselves that we can do it onour own.
We've been doing it.
We have proof that we can do iton our own.
We can get very good at it.
I don't need any help.
(37:15):
I can be hyper-independent, andit's like well, what if you ask
for help to start out with.
And, minnes, I feel thatself-compassion can be such a
key ingredient to for everything, really like that
self-compassion change my life.
(37:37):
That's a pillar on the work Ido.
I feel that, as people of color, is exceptionally hard to
practice self-compassion, eventhough we might understand that
in theory.
But adding self-compassion tothis process of, well, you can
(37:58):
be nice to yourself learningabout it and navigating through
it, and nice to yourself byletting somebody hold you right
and help you.
You don't need to do it on yourown.
And you know like there's theelements of self-compassion that
I don't want to talk about now,but when we really break
(38:23):
self-compassion into what itmeans, each of those elements
can be so, so helpful in thewhole process.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So you made me tear up there.
I like that self-compassion.
I think, honestly, it was thesingle greatest skill that I
learned in my healing journey.
It has helped me enormously,like throughout the years.
Like I cannot stress enoughthat that is.
If you take nothing away fromthis podcast, take that away
(38:49):
Self-compassion, all right.
So, to wrap up, you are locatedin Massachusetts.
So let's say, someone inMassachusetts is looking for a
therapist how do they find you?
How do they work with you?
Or someone wants to hire youfor their company.
How?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
do they connect?
Yeah, yeah, so I'm inMassachusetts Duelcioreuscocom
that's my website.
I'm active through LinkedIn andInstagram and it's Latina
immigrant therapist altogether.
So I work one-on-one withmostly women of color in
Massachusetts, and the goodthing is that I can work with
(39:25):
corporations or groups orcolleges nationwide, because
that is not therapy.
What I do with in that settingis not therapy.
So they can connect with me.
We'll take it from there, we'llexplore what they need and I
also started doing, you know,those corporations that have
(39:48):
retreats.
So I started working, yeah, soI'm so excited to explore all
these different avenues.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Oh my gosh, that's fab.
All right, you know that I am atotal proponent of therapy.
So if you're in Massachusettsand you're looking for a
therapist, don't say as yourperson Go.
And then if you own a company,or if your company needs this
kind of support or heck, if youjust want to find, explore and
learn a little more, make sureyou reach out to her.
Duelcioreuscocom.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
It was so great talking to you.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Thank you, minnes, thank you, Thank you.
I know that I could talk to youfor hours and hours, and hours.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I know right, we really could.
I was like, oh my God, it'stime to go, okay, okay, there we
go.
I can't Right.
Well, thank you.
Thank you, lissette, for beinghere.
I'm so excited to introduce youto my audience.
Now I want to share a littlebit about why I thought you were
so special and I wanted to haveyou on the podcast.
We were on the board of theStaff Short Conference for Women
Together and we did an open wedid that open sort of
(00:30):
conversation where women in thePlymouth community and the South
Shore community got togetherand talked about some of the
challenges that they face.
And one of the things you saidwas about how so many of us like
one of the things that thechallenges is about making
friends, building relationshipsand you talked about fear and
(00:52):
about how so many of us areafraid.
We're afraid to be accepted,we're afraid we won't be
accepted, we're afraid of whatother people will think.
There's just a lot of fear thatcomes into our decision making.
That, honestly, is almostsubconscious and I was like, oh,
that's such a deliciousconversation to have.
I wanted to have you on so wecould talk about this idea.
But before we dive straight in,let's introduce you to
(01:14):
everybody and tell us, tell myaudience, a little bit about
yourself.
Where do you come from?
What do you do?
Why do you do what you do?
Tell us about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, so my name is Duly Sierosco.
I am a licensed mental healthcounselor, in license in the
state of Massachusetts, and Ijust say that because
unfortunately it's very limitingbecause of licensing where and
you know where you can do andwhere can you do it.
(01:43):
So I do one on one therapy withwomen of color, not just
Latinas, but women of color ingeneral where I assist them to
really find new perspectives sothey're able to honor their
magic, which I feel that wesuppress so so much, just how
(02:05):
unique we are and how magical weare.
And most recently I alsostarted working with groups of
employees of color and I'mreally loving that.
It just sparked a whole newfire in me.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Oh, my goodness, if you said like a few things there
that I want to talk about, so Iwant to hear about your
employee thing first.
Let's dive into that becauseI'm so curious.
What are you?
So?
Because this is somethingthat's very I feel, very, I feel
very passionately about.
So, going back into corporateAmerica, you know, when I was on
the outside of corporateAmerica, I would see all the DEI
(02:46):
initiative stuff in the newsand people talking about it, but
like I mean, I was doing my ownthing outside so I could be.
You know, I was inclusive in mycommunity and my audience and
so on, so corporate Americadidn't really impact me that
much.
Having gone back into corporateAmerica now, as a person of
color who passes and then whohas so many friends who are
(03:06):
people of color, who are, Iwould love like we have a very
different experience ofcorporate America, I think, than
our colleagues do who are, whoare white, and so I am curious
to know what are some of thechallenges that you're, what are
some of the things that you'refinding that are challenges that
employees of color are facingin the workplace, and how is
(03:29):
like how you know that youmentioned that you're finding a
real fulfilling.
I'm curious to know like whatexcites you about working with
this group and the potential offor greatness there.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, so I say that I was raised as a therapist in a
very conservative way and I wasraised as a human being in a in
also a very conservative way,but but as a therapist I mean
that because you know it'salmost like following the path.
What was the path?
(04:00):
The path was you go to school,you get your license, which for
me was very difficult and justbecause of how the process of
being an international studentwas right and then you know
having to be sponsored by acompany and all of that like the
immigration process behind thescenes, and then what you see,
(04:24):
what you typically see me as, ispeople working in community
mental health setting, which Idid for many years, especially
Spanish being my first languageand being a cultural therapist I
had so many like the level ofpeople that were referred to me
was so high, right, and then mydaughter was born and for for my
(04:49):
family it just didn't makesense financially to give and
it's a very personal decisionbut for us it didn't make sense
to give someone pretty much mywhole salary, so I could, you
know that person, could watchher and I could go work, and
that's when I started my privatepractice and what I always saw
was people you know takinginsurance.
(05:11):
So taking insurance was the wayto do it and I decided not to
take one or two, but everysingle insurance, like I was
part of like 12 insurance,different insurance network,
right, and I was a generalistand I had so many referrals.
Again, I spoke, I speak Spanishis my first language and,
depending on the day, I speakPortuguese or Portugese, it
(05:33):
depends, right, like sometimesit's Portuguese, sometimes it's
like a mixture, but just becauseof that I got so many referrals
.
So in my mind, being atherapist meant doing one-on-one
therapy, right, and notchoosing and not and then like
very organically through COVID.
(05:54):
Well, that's that's.
Maybe that's another story.
I'm not a part of myself, butbasically what happened is that
I was able to see how fear wasstopping me from doing more and
trying new things.
And this, a local corporation,reached out to me and they were
(06:18):
like we have a lot ofinternational employees.
Are you open to have a workshop?
This was December 2020, themiddle of the pandemic, and none
of them could travel to seetheir families.
So they were like, do you wantto do a workshop on how to
approach the holidays?
And I was like, let's do it.
(06:39):
I did it and I realized thatwhat they wanted was to talk.
So when they came back to meand they were like, they love
that, can we do a workshop amonth?
I was like I don't think theywant to hear me talking.
They want to talk amongthemselves, right?
So that was my proposal andI've been working with them ever
(07:00):
since, for the past two yearplus.
But that opened uppossibilities to do workshops
about things that we're afraidto say and we need to say and
what happens, right?
What are your?
So?
Going back to your challenges,the question about challenges I
(07:23):
feel, minesa, that many times wesee in paper or when you see a
website, it's like we areinclusive, we have all this, you
know, like ERGs and diversity,equity and inclusion, and the
reality is not, you know, whenyou really dig into what happens
(07:43):
, that's not the case,unfortunately.
Right, it checks every markwhen you look at it from the
outside, but not from the inside.
So, having an opportunity totalk about what's going on,
which, for me, has beensurprising, really the fact that
people are speaking up, and Ifeel it's because they're tired,
(08:04):
they just you know they cannotsustain this lifestyle anymore.
Yeah, so the challenges thatI've seen are not enough
representation and just themandates that are put up when
(08:27):
something happens, right Likethat, get covered up with more
mandates, like bigger mandates,and that's just, it's collapsing
.
So people are leaving, peopleare very dissatisfied and I feel
that more and more, some ofthem are speaking up, while some
(08:51):
of them feel trapped and whilesome of them feel this is never
going to change.
This is how I've always beentreated.
It's better than what myparents had.
Therefore, you know, I do havea job, while everybody else is
being laid off.
What should I be complainingabout?
And this create all thesecognitive dissonance in your
(09:14):
mind and you feel like crap,right Like.
So that's kind of like theongoing challenge I've seen
which is.
It's just worsening,unfortunately.
Does that answer your?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
question.
Oh my God, so good.
As you're talking, all I couldthink of was I was almost like
you were sharing, like, becauseI remember when I first came to
the state.
So I am an American citizen,but I lived in Pakistan my whole
life until I was 20 something.
So when I came here, Iessentially immigrated.
However, I had the enormousprivilege of already having a US
(09:51):
passport, which meant that Ididn't have to deal with all of
the additional, honestly, traumaand exhaustion, and that comes
from having to prove that youare worthy and OK to be allowed
into the country, right.
So I didn't have to proveanything, I just was able to
come in.
(10:11):
So that's enormous amount ofprivilege, even including that,
even taking that intoconsideration, it's when you
come here and now you thinkabout how your parents grew up,
because, as you said, that thatreally resonated to me, because
I'm thinking to myself.
Ok, my grandparents lived in avery small village in northern
India, right in Bhavendi, and so, and then they moved to Karachi
(10:35):
and they they were afterpartition they were one of the
first families to move toKarachi, to Pakistan, and left a
lot of.
Some of the family came, butsome of them stayed there, right
.
So that's the context that formany of us that we use, right.
So like I'm not working in amud hut, so I'm good, right.
And so now you come here andyou're working in, like we have
(10:55):
electricity and we have.
I mean, we had electricity too,but you know, like they, you
know, at some point in my, my,my ancestral past, we didn't,
and you know, so you werewilling.
I think the framework we bringin is that we're willing to
tolerate a lot less, becausewhere our, our experience shows
Well, and then there's the yousaid earlier I should be
(11:16):
grateful to have a job Likethat's a, that's a big one.
You know, that's a big story.
That is so because it's almostlike you're somebody's, like
literally beating you up andjust saying you should be
grateful that you have a roofover your head.
Yes, I know this hurts, butyou'd be grateful to have a roof
over your head.
And you know it's interesting,because I feel like people are
(11:39):
talking about it now, do you?
I don't think that they'vetalked about it in the past and
I think that now that they aretalking about it, what I'm and
I'm curious to know what yourthoughts are on this, because
this is something that, like, mybrain gets muddy when I think
about it, cause I'm like how dowe solve this problem?
So you have a bunch of peoplewho are in a space that they're
feeling unheard, they're feelingthey're overworked, they're
(12:02):
overwhelmed.
Covid didn't help, becauseyou've got this.
Now you're working from homeand you may not have the
boundary set, and for many of us, we were raised with work
ethics that have you literallyworking till your knuckles are
bleeding and so you will workwithout having that.
I'm shutting the door andleaving the office.
(12:23):
You will work until you dropdead.
What, as somebody who workswith these corporations, do you
feel like the companiesunderstand what's happening, or
see what's happening?
Like what do you think ishappening on that level?
Cause it seems like they'resaying the words.
The people on the bottom aresaying they're in trouble, the
solution isn't actually helping.
(12:44):
So what is actually happeningin that spot?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, so this is relatively new for me, right?
I've been doing this work forthe past two years, which is not
too long.
I feel that I'm learning moreas I go and I haven't had so I
haven't had the chance to workon going with many corporations.
(13:12):
Right, I've worked on goingwith about three or so
nonprofits and also colleges,and I feel that's a whole
different ball game than therepresentation of a firm.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And I see the difference.
So I do see the difference.
To answer your question, and Idon't know if what I've seen is
so.
I don't wanna generalize, right, but from what I've seen, no,
they do not understand.
However, I don't know if partof it is denial, right, like
(14:00):
there's a very naive part of methat wants to believe it's
denial, but what I've seen isthat, or like the bigger part of
me, and it makes me sad to saythis, but I'm gonna say it is
productivity and capitalism andnumbers, right, and even in
(14:22):
mental health coming from amental health background, in a
nonprofit, mind you productivitywas a big part of how the whole
system, the health care system,which I don't think works well
or well enough, right, it wasproductivity and it was an
(14:47):
incentive that was based onwhether or not you meet that
productivity and we got to thepoint where we were encouraged
to double book clients, right.
So it's.
But to answer your question, Iwanna believe that they don't
(15:07):
understand it because they don'tknow what's going on.
But I feel that, unfortunately,they do know what's going on
and they don't care.
Or like the level of turnoveror the level of dissatisfaction
among employees, that's not bigenough to change the culture
(15:30):
right.
However, I see this.
Smaller companies thatcompletely align with my values
and that are like so not everycompany needs to be like that,
but I see that in the like Ifeel that's.
(15:51):
I see that in smaller companiesmeans I feel like this big, big
corporations lack that, and notbecause they don't have good
people there.
I absolutely wanna say thatthere's beautiful, amazing
people there, but sometimesthey're not enough.
(16:11):
What like their efforts are notenough right, or what they're
doing it's not enough and itmight not be as valued and as
appreciated, and it gets to thepoint where they can even be
seen as travel makers or, youknow, like just somebody that is
going against the flow or which.
(16:34):
I've been, I've been all ofthat, I've been named, all of
that.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Oh, I'm all about that.
I'm all about disruption.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
It's like you can't have children to disrupt, but.
I think you know there's anelement of not being afraid.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
You know, in order to do that because, like you said,
some people can't afford to beseen as a travel maker, because
they need to be able to havethat job right, so they can't
speak up.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yes, but unfortunately that only
exacerbates all these beliefsand all these trauma and all
these cycles.
So it's like, yes, I see itright.
And maybe you're a single momand maybe you also have been
harassed by your boss and youfeel that's the thing.
(17:21):
It's like where is that linewhere, even though you're afraid
, you're well-being, you'reemotional well-being, you're
right, like it's like where isthat line and how much are you
willing to take right?
Because there's this part of youthat feels that you cannot
(17:44):
speak up and it's I feel it'simpossible to do it unless you
have the resources.
And where are those resources?
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Which goes back to the capitalism thing, cause,
again, it's like you have toacknowledge that something's a
problem and then alsoacknowledge that, okay, this
resource is needed to solve it,and then provide that resource
in order for that to happen.
Right, and then you havesomeone at the higher levels in
a corporation who has thatperspective.
Then that's just not where themoney or the resources are gonna
(18:18):
go.
You know, and you saidsomething.
You said, oh shoot, what was itthat?
You said?
I'm so good, it was so good.
Hold on, I hate it when thathappens.
You were talking about people.
Oh, you were talking aboutpeople who are like.
You were like where is thatline?
Right, where is that line?
And I think that's such apowerful thing right, cause,
(18:43):
like when you think about anychange in your life, there is
the moment before you found theline and the moment after.
Now it may take you six yearsto leave the marriage or leave
the relationship or whatever,but the moment that you discover
the line, you'll never forgetthat.
That's the moment you decidedI'm done.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
And I'm going and you cannot unsee it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I know right, you can try, you can try and you're
like no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I don't want to see it, I don't want to think about
it, but deep down in your heartyou know that it's there.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Absolutely, and I think you know what you said
earlier about the fact that morepeople are talking about it.
Now, I was.
There's a.
I follow a, vanessa Bennettonline.
She's a therapist and she'sfabulous, and so she did.
I can't remember a video a longtime ago where she was talking
about how she said that we areentering into a space where
(19:38):
people are just tired of otherpeople telling them what to do.
People are tired of having to,you know.
Going back to what you weresaying earlier, actually we're
talking about magic, helping,you know, women of color find
their magic, and that's so muchof it is is of our magic is
inside.
Right, I'm gonna connect thesetwo thoughts together, because I
there's a drawing I have ofmyself that I put on Instagram.
(20:01):
That is me standing there.
It's like a cartoon, me, andjust like sparkles coming out of
my fingers.
Right, because in my mind, Isee my magic like unleashing and
like lighting up a page, andit's like it's such a cute
little picture.
I'm like, oh, I see myself, butthat's literally how I see
what's happening to me now,whereas before I see myself as
having been like almost dulledand grayed out, and so I wanted
(20:23):
to ask you like, and it's onlyof late that I started to
realize how much women of colorhave to suppress their inner
magic.
Like it's it's actually so sad,like it's heartbreaking, right,
because I can remember.
I remember and now so I'mcurious to know why do you feel
like women of color feel like wehave to hide all the things
(20:45):
about us that are magical?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah, there's so many things to this question, but
the first thing I think of it'ssurvival right.
It's like it seems to me thatfor so long, and unfortunately
for some people, even still now,you really need it to blend in
(21:08):
the less attention that youcause, the better Even.
You know, right now there's, atleast with Spanish, and I feel
that it's happening with manyother languages too.
But please tell me what youthink.
You know, I see this almostlike the shame on second, third
generation, because they don'tspeak Spanish, and it's like but
(21:29):
why didn't you did?
Why did this happen?
Right, Like not blaming theirgrandparents, their parents, but
almost like asking why.
And it's because, well, youknow, we didn't want to speak
any Spanish.
Or, like, you know, if we spokeEnglish it was better.
Like less attention.
And I feel that it comes backto this, to blending in the less
(21:53):
attention you cause, the better, right, like, and I feel that
that magic, really the for many,many people, goes back to who
you are and what makes you you.
But what makes me me is partlybeing a Venezuelan immigrant,
(22:14):
like, that's part of me that Icannot, you know, just decide to
forget about that and that'spart of my magic, right, and I
feel that for so many of usperhaps you know, even like I've
talked to some woman about thatworking, finance and that
working and big, big, liketitles, right, and then saying
(22:39):
that they do not dress with thecolors they want to dress, being
Latinas, and you know, like Idon't know like hot pink or
whatever it is, we like color.
But because you know they're inthat environment and they don't
feel and it's, this issomething very, it can't be seen
(23:01):
as something very little, right, like what color of clothes you
want to wear.
But it goes up to how do youwant to wear your hair?
Right, like how, what's thevolume?
Or do you allow yourself to usewhen you're talking?
Because for so many people it'slike why are you screaming?
(23:21):
Or you know, like, why are youmoving your hands so much?
It's like, it's, it's.
I feel that it goes back tosurvival and the more I blend in
, the better.
It was right For me or for myfamily.
And because we've been livingin survival mode for so many
(23:47):
years, there's so muchself-doubt miness in like wait,
like what's gonna happen?
Right, like is this, what do Ieven like?
And I feel that that's a lot ofwhat I do through my workshops.
It's like really exploring thatself-identity piece what's
(24:09):
yours, what's not yours?
You've been told this and that,but is that something?
What do you think?
Right?
Because I feel that there's allthis talk about diversity,
equity and inclusion, which isgreat, but it seems to me that
we don't really get toappreciate and get all the
(24:30):
benefit from that until we trulyknow who we are Like.
Who is it that?
That?
Yeah.
So I feel that we're suppressed, all of that, because we've
been living on survival mode forso, so, so long, trying to
blend in, trying to be okay,being quiet, right and just
(24:56):
being humble, being grateful,all these things.
Does that make sense, minna?
What do you?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
think it does.
And you know the thing thatactually, I think you've given
me like the best segue ever.
This is gonna be such a greatclip, so we're gonna pull this
as a freaking clip, is that?
No, because you said, right,you're talking about blending in
and, like, it gave me a perfectsegue to talk about why
whiteness is a privilege.
Right, because I'm Pakistanibut I look white, I pass, and
(25:24):
that gives me the ultimateprivilege of being able to
completely blend in if I chooseto, which means that I only need
to claim my identity if I wantto.
I don't, and that's a privilege, right.
And so, and in the context ofwhat you just said, that makes
sense as to why that's aprivilege right, cause a lot of
times, people will say, like,why is whiteness a privilege?
Like, what does that do for me,especially if you're not a
(25:47):
person of color at all?
Like, you're just white, whiteright, and you're just like dude
, I don't understand.
I grew up, I had to struggle, Ihad to do all those things.
Like, why is whiteness like?
Why does that be a privilege?
Why can that be a privilege?
And I think the key thing thatyou talked about is that
everybody's trying to blend in,and the better and easier you,
the easier of a journey you haveto blend in right, the more
(26:10):
privilege you have becauseyou're blending in, and so this
is something that's like soimportant for people to
recognize, right.
Because now, on the flip sideof that conversation, okay Is
this I'm not Pakistani enoughbecause I'm not dark enough I
use to talk about, so I speakUrdu.
I grew up speaking Urdu, butthere's a lot in fact, my first
(26:34):
language was Urdu, right, so,like I spoke English a lot of my
life.
But you know, my first word wasHathi, you know.
So that means elephant, and mymom always thought that was
funny that my first word wasHathi.
When I was living in the UnitedStates, I was like it was in.
Like you know, I was living inTexas for like that year, right
before I moved, and so I was inPakistan.
(26:57):
I was never Pakistani enough.
I was always the white one,right, I was always the, and so
there's like a huge for me.
I always felt left out becauseI was like, well, I'm not you
know enough for my culture,right, and then here and so,
like it's really interesting, Ithink, as we talk about these
ideas just in general, the factthat we all have to think about
these in and of themselves addsto it a layer of privilege to
(27:21):
somebody who never has to thinkabout these things, right?
So like I never have to thinkabout whether I'm like because I
like not me, but like I'mtalking about somebody who
literally never has to thinkabout these things, because I
still think about them, just ina different way, and I think
that for me, I suppressed somuch of myself in various ways
because again trying toassimilate, because I came to
(27:42):
the States in 1998 and 2001 wasSeptember 11th right.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
So like almost immediately.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I'm now at Pakistani in the States and people are
always making these terrorismjokes and they're like and
there's a lot.
It was like why do people hateour country?
There's just so like.
At that time it was in my bestinterest to just blend in right
absolutely where it is safer,because people there was a lot
of Anti-arid violence at thetime, brown skin violence, that
kind of thing I mean at the timelike that doesn't happen now.
(28:11):
I know at the time it was veryintense because of that
particular issue.
Right now, where's a wholedifferent volume happening and I
would argue, and intensifiedand accelerated thing that now
People in the workplace have tothink about right, and so the
question I think is is, like youknow, there's an element of so.
(28:34):
For some people, dei is like anactivity that they're doing,
but I think for people of color,dei is more about safety, right
, about feeling safe in theworkplace.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I Feel it depends on the context.
What I've seen is that intheory, it could help them feel
safe, but Unfortunately it couldalso trans.
(29:06):
It could also be seen as acheck mark Right, like oh, our
company, we're doing this, checkright, and you can tell when
that's the case.
And I feel, looking at it fromthat perspective, it almost,
(29:29):
instead of helping you feel safe, I feel that it has the
opposite effect, because youfeel it, you know it, so it's
like oh, no, right, like this is.
Do you know what I mean,vanessa?
What do you think?
Oh, you're muted.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yes, no, I yeah, no, I'm honestly with you because I
think that that's the difference, right, between the DEI
initiatives that work in theones that don't.
Because, like, yeah, I'mapproaching DEI from a space of,
okay, I want to make sure thatmy employees feel safe in this
place, okay, so the first thingI have to do is make sure I have
a person of color on HR, justhave to make sure that that
(30:10):
happens, right.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
so, like, and hopefully every department, but
my yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, I'm just using this example, right, and then I
mean, wait a minute, we needpeople of color in every
department.
But I yes my actual point,though, is that if anybody has
any problems, they have to havesomeone to be able to take it to
right.
So, like I gotta have thatright, what other things do I
need?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
you just said adding, you know, making sure that
there's people of color indepartments leadership positions
, because what right like so Canyou really show that it is
possible For you to grow in thatcorporation as a person of
color?
Not because you're a person ofcolor, but because you're great
(30:54):
at what you do and because youdeserve the Deserve it.
You deserve it, you deserve the, the opportunity of being seen.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
But when you don't see representation, it's, it's
hotter, right, um, I mean youdon't think that like, because
it sends a message You're notthe person we're looking for.
Yeah, so, people of color andleadership, people of color, and
you know, and it has to be, youknow when I think about because
, like, in some places that aresmaller, right, you've got to
like, think to yourself if Ifive people, you know how many
(31:26):
are you, how many people are yougonna have?
Like, and not thinking about itin terms of, oh my god, dude, I
saw this thing the other dayand I thought it was so like.
So somebody posted and saidDon't put you the color on your
staff because of like, we're notspices.
You don't just add us here andbe like, okay, right, and so I
really made me think about it alot, right, and I realized you
(31:47):
know what it's not about spicesand I said you know what it is.
It's about the fact that Eachperson you have forget about
color for a moment, let's justtalk about each person with a
different background, adifferent set of experiences
that you bring into aconversation or a room will
bring that much more Brilliance,that much more problem-solving
(32:11):
ability, that much more depth,because you're getting a lot of
different perspectives.
Absolutely, we're thinkingabout DEI.
We really need to not bethinking about it in terms of
color, race, but differentexperiences, and saying, okay,
well, the only person who couldhave had this type of different
experiences is a black man fromDetroit or is a you know, or
like the black community inBoston or the Pakistani
(32:32):
community here, or anyone Couldhave this if they grew up, you
know, in poverty or whatever.
But like the Experiences.
And then at that point you'reactually going to, by default,
bring in people of a variety ofraces, religions, colors, like
you'll have a spectrum, becauseyou're actually looking for the
different experiences.
(32:52):
But I think right now we're sofixated and I mean life
experiences, I don't mean workexperiences, because if you
leave a work experience, you'regonna put the same list over and
over again.
I'm thinking like you came fromVenezuela, wow, think like I
know how much work you had to doto be able to get into the, to
be able to get the visas, andOver the years, like just how it
, just how the system worksright, mm-hmm, and so that's an
(33:16):
experience I don't have.
Bringing you to the room bydefault makes it a better room.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, and also I Feel that right now, in many spaces
I go, I feel this division.
It's like Us versus them allalmost right, like it's it's
either good or bad.
It's like I Don't want to getinto politics, but that you know
(33:44):
, exact, surveyed all of thisblack and white thinking for so
many people and it's like can wejust what happens when you
listen to each other, right, andwhen you're there's, it's just
like what can you learn?
Like what can I know this mightsound so cliche mean, is
(34:06):
somebody's like, but you know,like what happens when you are
able to listen somebody elsetalking about their life
experience, or listen somebodyelse talking about whatever it
is, but with that level oftolerance and compassion and
(34:32):
Even if, like, it doesn't haveto be anything huge, and many
times that's where the magic is.
But I guess what I'm what I wantto bring is how that opens up
space for you being moretolerant, you learning, you
learn about yourself, becauseyou also learn about what is it
(34:55):
that trigger you or what is itthat you don't like?
You know, you learning that weall have, we're all biased,
right and and saying that I'mnot, it's just not Not true.
Um, but yeah, it's.
It's like everything that canopen up one one that space is a
(35:17):
possibility, and in so manyPlaces right now, it's not even
a possibility, like it's noteven something to consider.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So so let me ask you something.
Actually, you talked about.
I think probably the mostimportant thing was, like you've
said.
I mean, you said a lot, likeyou've said so many important
things.
All this is this entire episode.
It's just clips and clips.
And I looked at the time justnow and I'm like, oh my god,
have we already been talking for45 minutes?
Like how does that happen?
I haven't even asked you asingle question from my list.
This is this is how great.
This love it.
Um, but here I think let's,let's wrap on.
(35:47):
This question is One of themost important things I think we
all need to do, and this is thehardest thing I do in my life.
I think, anytime I do it isconfront our own biases.
So I'm curious to know if we'reall going to walk away from
this and say okay, because wetalked a lot today about DEI and
how people feel.
I think this is such a greatopportunity for people to get to
(36:10):
know a different experience ofthe world and just sort of like,
because I feel like these arethe things we talk about when
we're just talking, not on apodcast, so you get to be a fly
on the wall, but I think thatwalking away, being able to
challenge your own biases, isprobably the greatest gift you
can walk away with, becauseit'll make it easier to create
empathy, to create relationships.
(36:30):
So I'd love to hear from you IfI came to you as a client as a
client or patient, sorry, as apatient and I'm basically I want
to learn how to confront my ownbiases and deal with that awful
discomfort that comes when yourealize you have a bias.
How do we navigate thatuncomfortable space?
(36:51):
And like, how would yourecommend somebody work through
some of that?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah.
So I would say first of all andI say this for so many things,
but I don't get tired of sayingit you don't have to do it on
your own Right.
Like I feel that so many of uswere so good at convincing
ourselves that we can do it onour own.
We've been doing it.
We have proof that we can do iton our own.
We can get very good at it.
I don't need any help.
(37:15):
I can be hyper-independent, andit's like well, what if you ask
for help to start out with.
And, minnes, I feel thatself-compassion can be such a
key ingredient to for everything, really like that
self-compassion change my life.
(37:37):
That's a pillar on the work Ido.
I feel that, as people of color, is exceptionally hard to
practice self-compassion, eventhough we might understand that
in theory.
But adding self-compassion tothis process of, well, you can
(37:58):
be nice to yourself learningabout it and navigating through
it, and nice to yourself byletting somebody hold you right
and help you.
You don't need to do it on yourown.
And you know like there's theelements of self-compassion that
I don't want to talk about now,but when we really break
(38:23):
self-compassion into what itmeans, each of those elements
can be so, so helpful in thewhole process.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So you made me tear up there.
I like that self-compassion.
I think, honestly, it was thesingle greatest skill that I
learned in my healing journey.
It has helped me enormously,like throughout the years.
Like I cannot stress enoughthat that is.
If you take nothing away fromthis podcast, take that away
(38:49):
Self-compassion, all right.
So, to wrap up, you are locatedin Massachusetts.
So let's say, someone inMassachusetts is looking for a
therapist how do they find you?
How do they work with you?
Or someone wants to hire youfor their company.
How?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
do they connect?
Yeah, yeah, so I'm inMassachusetts Duelcioreuscocom
that's my website.
I'm active through LinkedIn andInstagram and it's Latina
immigrant therapist altogether.
So I work one-on-one withmostly women of color in
Massachusetts, and the goodthing is that I can work with
(39:25):
corporations or groups orcolleges nationwide, because
that is not therapy.
What I do with in that settingis not therapy.
So they can connect with me.
We'll take it from there, we'llexplore what they need and I
also started doing, you know,those corporations that have
(39:48):
retreats.
So I started working, yeah, soI'm so excited to explore all
these different avenues.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Oh my gosh, that's fab.
All right, you know that I am atotal proponent of therapy.
So if you're in Massachusettsand you're looking for a
therapist, don't say as yourperson Go.
And then if you own a company,or if your company needs this
kind of support or heck, if youjust want to find, explore and
learn a little more, make sureyou reach out to her.
Duelcioreuscocom.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
It was so great talking to you.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Thank you, minnes, thank you, Thank you.
I know that I could talk to youfor hours and hours, and hours.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I know right, we really could.
I was like, oh my God, it'stime to go, okay, okay, there we
go.
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