Building Bonds Before Birth: How Joint Sessions Transform Surrogacy Journeys

#surrogacy 
#ivf 
#surrogate

Rachel’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rachelgoldbergtherapy?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

Step into the emotional landscape of surrogacy with licensed therapist Rachel Goldberg as she pulls back the curtain on the psychological aspects of gestational carrier journeys. What many surrogates fear as judgment—psychological evaluations—are actually thoughtful assessments designed to ensure everyone's wellbeing throughout this profound experience.

Rachel reveals why joint counseling sessions between surrogates and intended parents should be standard practice before contracts are ever signed. These facilitated conversations create safe spaces to discuss difficult topics like selective reduction, communication boundaries, and post-birth relationships. As she shares, "We're building the foundation so that when cracks happen, they remember there's a foundation first."

The most compelling insight? Nearly everyone initially resistant to these sessions later expresses profound gratitude for the experience. Through real examples from her practice, Rachel illustrates how these sessions prevent misunderstandings and establish authentic connections between parties who might otherwise struggle to navigate their different communication styles and expectations.

We explore what really happens in psychological screenings (hint: they're looking for human, not perfect), how agencies are increasingly including mental health benefits in surrogacy contracts, and why even experienced surrogates benefit from professional facilitation of difficult conversations. 

Whether you're considering becoming a surrogate, seeking to build your family through surrogacy, or simply curious about this unique journey, this conversation offers invaluable perspective on the human elements that make surrogacy journeys successful beyond the medical procedures.

Subscribe to hear more conversations that bring transparency and education to the world of surrogacy. Have questions or stories to share? Reach out to us on Instagram @stop.sit.surrogate or email [e-mail].

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome.
We are a mother-daughterpodcast about all things
surrogacy.
Together, we have brought eightbeautiful babies into this
world and we would like to sharethrough education and knowledge
about surrogacy with those whowant to educate themselves on
the topic.
This is Stop Sit Surrogate, sitSurrogate.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi everybody, welcome back to Stop Sit Surrogate with
Kennedy and Ellen.
Hey everybody, we have a veryfun guest today.
I'm going to let her introduceherself.
Would you like to give yourname and what your profession is
in this?

Speaker 3 (00:39):
field.
Yes, my name is Rachel Goldberg.
I'm a licensed therapist.
I work in reproductive andmental health, perinatal
infertility, surrogacy,pregnancy, postpartum, all of
the above.
I do evaluations forgestational carriers, donors, I
do consultations for intendedparents.
So I've always been reallyinterested in the overlap

(01:00):
between physical and emotionalhealth.

Speaker 4 (01:02):
Wow, that's very cool Cause, like I really want to
know, like how did you get intothe specialty?
Like that is such a littleniche, right that happened.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Were you always interested?

Speaker 4 (01:14):
or did somebody say hey, do this for us, and you
were like I love this?

Speaker 3 (01:17):
both kind of.
I was always into, um, healthpsychology.
So, um, I I went when I was atUCLA, I worked with a health
psychologist and so I kind oflearned a lot about it and she
was pregnant at the time too, soI learned about pregnancy.
At the same time, um, I wasalso a personal trainer.
So when I put myself throughgrad school, I was a personal
trainer and I had a client who,um, I was working with a lot of

(01:39):
pregnant women and she had tohave a hysterectomy and then had
to use a gestational carrier.
So that was my introduction togestational care.
And then after that I was inWest Hollywood as a personal
trainer.
So I feel like that kind ofparalleled with a lot of
third-party reproduction.
So it was around me, it wasvery common, it wasn't like this
taboo thing or this weird thing.
So then after a while I justcontinued down the same path of

(02:03):
my perinatal, but in as I wasgoing to school I was becoming a
therapist, I stayed in thatlane of perinatal infertility
and then over time I startedgetting into evaluations and it
just feels like it was thenatural fit for me to just
continue in that path.
So it's always kind of beenaround me, but I didn't actually
dive deeper into it until Ithought, oh wow, there's

(02:25):
actually something you can do inthis.
It's not just you know this bigfield if you think about it.
Yeah, it is kind of the WildWest, but you know it was like
oh, mental health professionalsactually have a role in this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:36):
Yeah, that's interesting that you were, that
you had it while you were atschool, like you kind of knew
about it and so you could kindof direct your lane and just
kind of stay there and not, youknow, dive off Right.
It's just very interesting tome how this whole field just I
don't say exploded, but just oh,it's huge, so needed, it's so

(02:57):
needed and I just don't thinkthere's enough of them that
handle that specific of you knowall the things that you're
doing.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, I don't think there's any, and in some ways
that's a good thing and not sucha good thing.
But right, we want more.
But at the same time, um, itreally does take like a
specialized training and I thinkthat, just having you know,
sometimes you'll get a pair ofum intended parents who say,
well, can my therapist just doit, but without specialized
training, not really.
No, no, yeah, they're not goingto help with the specifics of

(03:22):
what you need really from thatRight yeah, very interesting.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
So then I mean, I'm going to ask the question that
you know that we were talkingabout before this.
So I mean, I've been on severaljourneys myself and I've had a
psychological evaluation everysingle time.
The questionnaire like300-question thing, like that's
very new to me.
Oh, the PA is it really?

Speaker 3 (03:49):
yeah, yeah, so I'm a PI or PAI.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
I've had four psychological um evaluations and
I've only had to do that onceand that was on my my most
recent one.

Speaker 4 (03:59):
So and that's I mean I started my journeys in 2017.
And I had to take it on allthree.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Oh, you did, Because I was going to say it's not new.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
Yeah, I had to take it on all three and that's like
two decades ago.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
So I mean, the guidelines do say you are
supposed to do it and mostclinics are supposed to require
it, as well as agencies.
So if you didn't do it theywere not following ASRM
guidelines.
And I don't.
It's not a test.
People think of it as it's test.
It's really just an assessmentwe're trying to figure out.
You know, your personality,where you are mentally like, how
truthful you are.
It's meant to just kind of giveus a feel, for is this really

(04:36):
something you're ready for inyour life?
More so than just the clinicalinterview.
They kind of both of themtogether give us a much better
picture than just one separately.
Both of them together give us amuch better picture than just
one separately Right that?
makes sense.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, it's just like a brain quiz really.
When I took it I was like theseare easy, it's just about me
Right, it asked you in so many.

Speaker 4 (04:55):
I mean, I remember when I did it was so long ago it
had so many questions that wereso very similar, but there was
one or two little off lines Likewait, I just answered that.
Wait, how did I answer that?

Speaker 3 (05:04):
one.
So the reason for that is tosee if you're being consistent.
Because if it's inconsistent,then it's invalid right and
maybe you're hiding something.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
So we're looking for consistency.
Interesting.
That's very interesting.
And now with surrogacy journeys, you don't hear I mean, I don't
hear a lot about joint sessions, but they seem like they're
becoming more of a thing, whichI really wish I had my third
journey, but what is the like?
What is the purpose?

(05:33):
I can think of a purpose formyself why I personally would
like a joint session.

Speaker 4 (05:37):
Can we?
Can we define what a jointsession is first?

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Yeah, Really go and lay yeah.
So of course there's like ajoint session If you're going to
have like a Zoom call with yourcase manager and you know them.
But this is different.
This is like one done by amental health professional, and
so it's when intended parentsand the gestational carrier and
her partner, if she has one, allmeet together and sometimes
it's the first time that theintended parents are meeting the
partner and that the partner'smeeting the intended parents.

(06:01):
And it's really just a way tobring in not just like the hard
topics, like to really talkabout them, but also to try to
strengthen the bond before iteven all begins.
And then, yes, we do talk aboutthe hard topics, but when you're
, when it's done in this kind ofsetting, it's basically taking
what you've already agreed to onthe document and now saying it

(06:23):
out loud to each other and howdoes it now feel.
And you know it also gives us away to talk about what do you
expect in this journey?
You know what's it like and itbrings them to bond over who.
They are right.
So when you kind of see howthey are interacting with their
partner, how they're maybeinteracting if a kid comes into
the you know picture.
You know just how their houseis because you know picture.

(06:49):
You know it just how theirhouse is because you know
they're all on zoom, just theway they talk to each other, the
way they talk to me, the waythey.
It just brings up upon like arapport that maybe hadn't been
there or that doesn't come tomuch later in the pregnancy.
So it takes away a lot of thatawkwardness from the very
beginning.
And again I get to ask thesehard questions whereas you know
maybe they had the questions butthey didn't want to ask what's
your diet going to be like?
What's the lifestyle going tobe like?
What are travel restrictionslike?
And we're actually talkingabout it now out loud to each

(07:12):
other, which can be awkward,yeah, and so it's.
You know a lot of people think,oh, it's meant to like make
sure we're really a match andyou know she's going to break us
up.
But that is not the point atall.
We want to strengthen the bond.
Also, if I talk about you know,how did you get to this place?
To the IPs, you know it helpsthe gestational care understand
like maybe what's happened forthem, how hard this might have

(07:33):
been.
It gives them a better pictureof what they're going into
no-transcript.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
A big hard one to talk about like out loud.
It's hard to like.
Also, market down on the papershow you feel about like
reduction and things like that.
So I'm assuming that isprobably a topic that you bring
up 100%, 100%.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
All that, vaccinations, termination, what
would you want to terminate for?
How would it be?
How would you guys communicateabout it?
How would you communicate afterAll of these things?
Right, Because it can be a veryawkward thing.
Right, it can be veryuncomfortable, and sometimes
people are blindsided by itbecause they think, okay, well,
it would only be, you know, veryearly on because they found out
something really bad.
Right, but things happen.

(08:27):
You know, maybe you had the 20week scan and they learned that
the heart is growing outside ofthe body, and maybe and maybe
the doctor says, oh look, wecould do many surgeries after
the child's born and we don'tknow if they'll be successful or
not.
And now that's a different grayarea.
And so it's not that I canbring up every single thing, but

(08:51):
I can say, sometimes gray areashappen.
You know, these are kind ofgray areas, and both of you
agree that in a gray area,usually this is what happens now
is, you know they've matchedwell, and so you say something
to the fact of you've agreedthat the IPs have the decision
in this, you know, if it'ssomething like that, and then
now she can say, yes, right, soalthough when it actually
happens.
It's a lot harder and a lot, youknow, in this, the emotions are
, way, you know, more difficultand that in those moments,

(09:14):
you've talked about it.
You've talked about what eachof them need.
Do they need space, you know?
Do they want to communicatemore about it?
Like, do they want thecaseworker?
Do they need a mental healthprofessional?
They've already talked it out alittle bit enough, so it
doesn't feel, as you know,blindsided by, like what we all
need in this moment, or you knowwhat we agreed to.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Yeah it, you are exactly right when you say
you're not.
You can talk about it and youcan understand what you might
say.
But unless you're in thatsituation, you don't realize it,
cause I had triplets for acouple right, and they wanted to
reduce and I already signed mylife away saying, yo yeah,
they're baby, blah, blah, blah.
No one ever thought we'd getpregnant with triplets, ever,
right.
And it came time to reducethree healthy babies and they

(09:55):
wanted to go to two and I reallyfelt pressured, um, that I
couldn't really speak up becauseI already signed it away.
That was not a topic that wasdiscussed at all and luckily we
carried all three because therewas a something that happened
and they looked at it as a sign.
But you're right, I mean justemotions and just you're
frustrated and you're angry andyou're hurt and you're you just

(10:17):
want to bring life Like that's.
That was my big thing, you know, and we won't go and delve into
that.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
But're exactly right, you, you can think how you're
going to respond, but untilyou're in it, it may change and
a lot of these gestational youknow, gestational carers, look,
they've had good pregnancies,right, so they think that it's
not going to happen to them.
You know, for good reason.
But these things do happen.
And at least if we said even inyour case, right, at least if
we had said like, if this up,how will we come together to

(10:44):
discuss this Right?

Speaker 4 (10:46):
Right and we didn't come together.
That was the sad part.
And again it was 20, you know,20 years ago.
So we didn't come together.
It was, you know, everybody wasin their corner.
It was yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
It's something like this OK, so?
So let's take this scenarioRight.
So you are addressing thepossibility of this happening in
a joint session, unfortunately,down the line a couple of weeks
later, whatever it is, a coupleof months later this does come
about, and this is an actualthing that now has to occur.
Are they sent?

(11:18):
Are GC and intended parentslike sent back to you to talk
this through, or like no parentslike sent back to you to talk
this through?

Speaker 3 (11:25):
or like no, usually not, but they can, they have
that option, and now they have arapport with me and now they
know I exist and so maybe theythink you know what this is
really hard for us to do on ourown.
Can we, you know, bring herback in, you know?
So at least that's their option.
So when we do the jointsessions there, it should be
done before even contract, right, because you're really kind of
getting to the harder topicsbefore they even sign anything,

(11:46):
so you can really talk aboutthem in an open way and they can
really understand what theywant in the contract, as opposed
to trying to hide behind justwords or oftentimes the first
time gestational carriers justthinking like she just kind of
has to, you know, waive all herrights, right, everyone.
Just pleasing everyone, youknow in the beginning rights,
right, everyone's just pleasingeveryone, you know, in the
beginning.
So this it just brings some ofthese harder conversations at

(12:09):
the very beginning.
So at least it's been talkedabout and it's going to be a lot
different if you say, if thegestational carrier says yes,
openly, very out loud, toeveryone in, you know, in the
room, and says, yes, this, thiswill not be, you know, an easy
decision for me, but yes, Iwould do it if you guys wanted
me to.
Then, if the time does come,they remember this is going to

(12:30):
be really hard for her.
Maybe we can find a way tosupport her.
We know that this is going tobe really hard for her.
This isn't just, you know, adecision that she can easily do.
We know she's suffering.
What can we do to help?
Okay, do we?
We know she's suffering.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
What can we do to help?
Okay, so say some cause, some.
Sometimes tragedy happens inthe in a journey and IPs and GC.
The communication is either cutoff, it's lacking.
People are grieving indifferent ways If there is a
huge divide, right, Can the GCcall you directly, Like if she

(13:12):
is not coping well, or likebeing able to like mentally
figure this out and likenavigate through it.
She knows, like she's obligatedto do you know things, or that
this tragedy is happening.
No matter what, what is herlifeline support to you?
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (13:26):
Well, it pretty much it's cut off once we're done,
but she can absolutely go to heragency and she can say you know
, I would like to speak to thatperson, right, and you hope also
that in gestational carecontracts, now that they are
actually putting in mentalhealth professional benefits,
right, so a lot of them are nowputting in some money towards it

(13:50):
, right, so that you hope it isgoing to be there for the, you
know, for the gestationalcarrier if she needs it.
So, yeah, I mean she has everyright to ask and even if it
wasn't in the contract, right,she has.
So I had a case once where shedid have to terminate, um, she
had to do a termination at 16weeks and she was just
heartbroken about it,heartbroken Again.

(14:10):
She had signed the paperwork,she had said it's fine, but now,
when it came down to it, shewas felt attached and like how
can I let these you know it wastwins, how can I let these
babies go, right?
So she said you know, I need totalk to someone, I'm really
having a hard time.
And so they had no money inescrow.
But basically the agencystepped in, asked IPs for some

(14:32):
funds and I think if the IPs hadsaid no, they still would have
paid for it on their own right.
So having just a few sessionsto kind of talk it out is really
important.
So I think in that situation agestational care should speak up
and say I need some support.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree, I very much agree.

Speaker 4 (14:46):
Sometimes it's hard when you're especially when
you're first time surrogate.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
You know it's like yeah, like am, I, like am.
I going to be a problem, andit's like right and also why I'm
asking to use the mental healthbenefits.
Like oh, am I like right?
Like the IP is looking at me asif, like oh, I'm the one who
needs the help.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, am I not going to qualify to do this again?

Speaker 3 (15:06):
That's why I think it's really important for
agencies to say, hey, this isreally normal for us to put
mental health benefits, or evensay, like we, we offer this, you
know, once a month if you wantto do it.
So I think it's reallyimportant for them to open it up
to the intended parents and sayyou know, we really encourage
our gestational care to usemental health along the way, so
that it doesn't feel like it'ssome kind of taboo thing.

(15:27):
Agreed, agreed.
Yes, very much.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Very much so.
So then you, so then the jointmeeting and meeting with you
really is just like a normalcyof it.
Right, would be just the oneand done, and then, if needed,
throughout the journey, thenmaybe you're brought back in,
and things like that.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
Right, and how long approximately?
You're looking at 90 minutes.
You're looking at trying tokeep it within the hour.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
I would say it's typically about an hour.
It can go over, depending on,like, how talkative each person
is and how much they're reallylike bonding with each other.
Sometimes it's a little bitmore stiff.
Sometimes you know, and if itis stiff too, that my job is to
try to loosen it up a little bit, maybe tell some jokes, you
know, like have everyone laughat me.
You know the whole point is toget them to bond.
Right, we want them to bond.
Yes, we talk about the hardthings, but also we want them to

(16:21):
feel good about this.
Already, you Like, we want thisto feel good.
We talk about the communication.
How much do we want tocommunicate?
What feels okay, all thesethings.
And I will ask Cargwell so if Ihear a gestational carrier say
to me I have a really busy lifeand you know I don't always
answer on time and you know I'mgoing to try, but sometimes I
don't and then in the meetingshe says, oh, yeah, whenever you

(16:41):
text me I'm going to answer,I'll say, wait, you know, I
remember you telling me you hada really busy life, you know.
So I can almost speak up forthem.
And the same thing for the IPS.
But essentially what you want.
The goal is I would do theevaluation so I get kind of a
feel for what the gestationalcarrier's personality is like,
what she wants, the thing shetells me separately.
Okay, I meet the IPs, I hearwhat they say to me separately,

(17:04):
cause I do, you know, thepsychosocial consultation with
them and then I bring themtogether and now I know what
each person has already said andwhat each person wants and I
can facilitate it in a way thatfeels comfortable for everybody.
That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
That makes sense and that's interesting to hear that
you do psychological evaluationswith intended parents on their
own.
None of my intended parents hadto do a psychological
evaluation, so not evaluation.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
So the different it's a consultation and the
difference is yeah, but everyonesays about you and I think
that's intended parents.
When they hear that, theyalways think, like, why should I
be evaluated?
I could be a parent, you know,and we're not evaluating and we
are not determining if theycould be parents.
What we are doing is we aresharing these are the things
that might come up.
We are asking them what kind ofcommunication do you want?
Like, is there, is there alifestyle you want her to have?

(17:48):
Are there things that wouldbother you about her?
What have you gone through inyour journey that might trigger,
be triggering if, like you know, this happens in hers, right?
So we just kind of like reallytalk about the different things
that could come up, really tryto prepare them for what's to
come.
It's different when it's like asecond time intended parent.
You know, I think they know alot more, but you know you can

(18:09):
still, at least, if it'srequired, you still can at least
ask a lot of questions like,well, what did you like about
the first one?
What didn't you like?
What can, what can be better?
You know all those kinds ofthings.
So, but yes, they are supposedto do, one to really just kind
of.
And also we want to make surethat they understand what the
gestational carrier needs, right, we want to make sure that this
is a journey that is great foreveryone involved.

(18:31):
So we want to explain to themcertain things.
Like, maybe they come inthinking that the gestational
carrier is supposed to doeverything.
They ask all the time, you know, and we're like, actually she
also has a life right.
Or maybe the opposite.
They think like whatever shewants, whatever she wants If she
doesn't want to talk to us.
You know, I've had that beforetoo and we're like, no, no,
that's not how it works, right,she wants you involved.

(18:52):
Sometimes I'll have intendedparents think like I don't want
to overburden her right, andthey don't even realize the
gestational carrier wants themto ask questions, wants, wants
them to ask questions, wantsthem to be involved.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yes, agreed, that's very sweet.
I like, I like the.
It's like you're like a buffer,and I like that because it's
you're going to force theconversations and like not force
the bond, but like basicallylay a path for it to happen in
like a very controlled manner,rather than being like wait,

(19:25):
wait, wait, being like wait andlike, rather than somebody
walking away thinking like over,I'm an overthinker, so if
somebody says something and theydidn't mean it like that, I'm
gonna take it a hundreddifferent ways and I'm gonna
like go into the night and belike and like stress myself out
and think that they meantsomething else so right, exactly
right, and if you kind of knowtheir personality a little bit
going in, or even hear somethingyou know from, know from what

(19:45):
their partner says.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
So maybe the partner says I know she's telling you
right now, she's going to answeryou right away, but I, you know
, I guarantee sometimes it'sgonna take an hour and now they
have an idea or you know theymight say just so, you know my
wife, she writes novels, so justexpect really long's huge yeah
just a lot of different thingscan come out of it that you
wouldn't expect.

(20:07):
Or they bond over a movie theywatched you know um just it
really just helps bring themtogether, yes, so are the
questions?

Speaker 2 (20:15):
do they overlap, like meaning, like the, the, the
conversations that you're havingwith the gc, what you know,
one-on-one with her, and theconversations that you're having
with the ips, one-on-one withthem?
Now you have them togetherbecause when I we talked about
this a little bit before westarted so I've only ever done
one joint session and this wasthis therapist first time ever
doing a joint session so she waslike I have no idea what to ask

(20:35):
, so I'm just gonna ask the samethings that I asked in your
guys's like one-on-ones.
And I was like okay, sure, yeah,that makes sense makes sense,
like I like, like I know, likeyou know so it was very basic.
It was like, and she basicallykind of went over the the things
that, like, we agreed to in thecontract per se, like oh, how
do you feel about?

Speaker 4 (20:55):
you know, right there , it should be done before the
contract.
Right, that's the big.
I think that might be thebiggest difference.
It should.
This joint session should bedone before the contract.
Yes, it should be done, rachel,right when you just said your
contracts were done.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Well, we didn't sign, but we had them, right, right.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, yeah, was it helpful.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
The joint session.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yeah, did it do anything?

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Um, oh, that's a loaded question.
Because of that whole journey Ididn't go on a journey with
them the joint session itself, Ithink because it was so like
not organized.
I don't think we benefited fromit, because we had already
talked, we had talked twicebefore then and it seemed more

(21:41):
organic.
And then with this, it was likewe all felt really weird
because, like, the person thatwe were talking with had no idea
what she was doing.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
So it just kind of made it more like like, right,
it sounds like maybe she justdived into these harder
questions, whereas I think partof it is to just you know, I try
to open it with just saying,like you know, how did you get
here?
Like, what do you guys knowabout each other already?
Maybe, you know, try to bringup something a little bit more
casual before you dive rightinto the harder questions.
You know, if I already knowsomething about each party, I

(22:09):
could say it.
But then some of the harderthings, so, like you said, yes,
some of it is like overlappingof what we have already asked,
but just making sure noweveryone states it out loud
together.
And then some of it is otherthings, such as you know the
diet and the lifestyle, but likewhat, what does that mean?
Eating healthy?
Like how, what does healthyreally mean?
Will you know someone bechecking in on it or not

(22:30):
checking in on?
Do they want to trust you know,like these kinds of things.
And then also to bring up harderthings, such as hey, you know
she's been on a journey beforeand she had to terminate at, you
know, 16 weeks and that wasreally hard for her.
Did you know that?
You know telling the IPs, kindof letting them know where she's

(22:51):
been, you know, because maybeshe doesn't want to bring it up
herself, but it's.
I think it's an important thingto bring up Right.
So, and sometimes I do bring uplike things that are
uncomfortable for everyone, suchas you know I know you've maybe
read this, but I want to justmake sure it's okay and you
understand that her partnervapes and now he does it outside
, and then he say, and he cankind of build that rapport and

(23:13):
say, hey, I get it, this is yourbaby and I am going to respect
it and I will always do itoutside Right, like almost like
a man to man or you know kind ofthing.
So I think these kinds ofthings again help build the
trust and make everyone not feellike there's some mysterious
thing possibly going on thatthey don't know about.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Right, I do like that and I'm and I'm in.
I mean it's funny because withmy current intended parent I we
didn't do a joint session but wehave such great communication
and we're very transparent andwe talk about anything.
But it would be.
But she only just recently metmy husband.
So the joint session would beinteresting because I've been on
a journey with her for over ayear.
So the joint session I, I, I seea lot of benefits from it and a

(23:54):
lot of me really wishes that Ihad it and one of my journeys,
because I think that it wouldhave gone a lot smoother and a
lot better.
Because you're basically justopening dialogue, like it's just
like, hey, like I'm not, youknow, I'm like the overthinker
and thing like that.
So it's oh, just because youread something one way, I like I
hate text, like that.
So it's oh, just because youread something one way, I like I

(24:15):
hate text and so like, when youread something one way, you're
going to read it, you know sevendifferent ways, whereas if you
explain it and you have theemotion behind it and you can
see their body language andeverything like that.
I think it definitely puts adifferent ease.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
Right, and you could say I'm not great at texting,
but I'm happy to do a FaceTimeevery three days.
You know, even if it's just fiveminutes, all these things you
can say out loud and that makesit feel better.
The other thing is I try totell you know when people do
sometimes have pushback aboutthis, and when people do, I try
to say look, the worst casescenario is that you guys just
have an hour to bond and talkabout fun things, and that's the

(24:50):
worst case, right?
So fine, it feels like a wastedhour for you, but at least you
guys got to joke around and youknow, appease the clinic and
best case is you really start tolearn about each other and you
really grow a bond and you talkabout the hard things in a
different way than you did prior.
So if they already did a lot ofthis, you know, then again, the
worst case scenario is now theyhave an hour that they get to

(25:12):
all four of them If there's apartner involved or, you know,
if it's not a single person,like, bond together.
Yeah.
When are you going to really getto do that with everyone having
busy lives Right when you?

Speaker 4 (25:24):
say you get pushback, are you getting it from both
sides or is it more on the GCside?

Speaker 3 (25:28):
No, you mostly get it from the IPs, if anything.
So the GCs are totally finewith it, the IPs, and I'll tell
you why.
Sometimes you get pushed backBecause, first of all, they've
already done so much you know,and it's like this is just one
more hurdle they have to getthrough.
And it's like why should wehave to do this?
We already know her, we alreadytalked to her.

(25:48):
And then the other time thatyou'll get pushback for it is if
it's a friend or a cousin,someone they know.
So let's say, but to be honest,that's sometimes the most
important time to do it, becauseif it's a friend or a cousin or
a sister, there is maybe afamily power dynamic.
There is already expectationsthat each person is going to
have that probably never saidout loud.

(26:10):
And now is the time for you toopen up about these expectations
so we can say wait a minute,hold up, also to talk about what
are we going to say to thechild later, because now you
really are very much involved intheir life.
So these are conversations thatthey think well, we know each
other, we don't have to do this,but that's sometimes when the
worst communication can end uphappening.

(26:31):
Right, agreed.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
So then, is the therapist that is conducting the
joint session alreadyrepresenting one or the other
parties, or is the joint sessionmeeting meant to be conducted
by a neutral party?
But it's just you, the wholetime.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Right, right, hopefully it's not always.
Um, you know, it can be donedifferently.
Sometimes maybe the IPs alreadydid a consultation before
because they got rematched, orsometimes they don't have to do
one, so it's not always Alsojust by state licensure.
Sometimes there's an issue witheveryone doing it, but you hope
that all three can do it.
It is the best case scenariowhen all three are done by the

(27:05):
same person, because then thereis everyone.
Everyone already built therapport with me, so they don't
feel like I'm taking a side.
They think, okay, she's justhere to take both our sides
because we already talked to herand we hopefully liked her, and
then we you know the GC did.
So everyone already feels likesome closeness to me in a way.
I've already helped to buildthe rapport, so they trust me to

(27:26):
now navigate it together withthem.
Yeah, I think that's ideal.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
And where does the request for this joint session
come from?
Because in the beginning yousaid clinics.
You know sometimes want certainthings.
Is this an agency request or isthis a clinic request?

Speaker 3 (27:42):
So okay, so the ASRM guidelines do put this in there
that a joint session shouldhappen.
Agencies will sometimes have itin their you know requirements
of things that have to be done,but often it's because the
clinic required it.
So it's the majority of thetime that it's done is because
it was a clinic requirement, andso the agencies follow suit.

(28:05):
Or if it's an independentjourney, the clinic says, hey,
you guys have to do this first.
So that's typically.
But there are some agencies,especially now more and more,
are starting to require it ontheir own, even if the clinic
doesn't, because I think they'reseeing the benefit of it.

Speaker 4 (28:18):
I think we're going to see more and more.
I think it's going to become astandard.
I really do.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
It just makes the entire ride more smooth from the
very beginning.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
And it makes just sense, like each do their own,
like each each talk about theirown feelings on their own and
then if, especially if it's justwith one person, then that
person, like yourself, can justcome and be like hey, like I
think we should talk this out,because you guys are somewhat
similar but somewhat not so like, let's just like figure this

(28:47):
out now rather than when itactually happens and emotions
and feelings are heightened yeah, I, I mean even just the
subtlest things, and so thesethese subtle things happen the
entire time, right?

Speaker 3 (28:58):
So like I may be naming the big things, but
there's just little subtletiesthat I can help kind of smooth
over a little bit, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Everybody talks differently, everybody.
You know, some people are morearticulate with their words,
some people just kind of wordvomit I tend to word vomit and
then I, and then I hear itafterwards but it's like a delay
.
So I'm like let me put somecontext behind it, but by then
it's already in their head andit's like wait, hold on rewind.
So yeah, that's I mean.

(29:25):
Yeah.
So I mean I think I know theanswer.
But I also just want to askbecause I'm if you're a new
surrogate, I don't want them toassume who is fronting the the
bill for this oh yes.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
So I mean, yes, look, at the end of the day we know
who's fronting the bill.
It's the intent of parents,right, always they're fronting,
they're paying every bill.
But, um, oftentimes it's likein the package.
So if you know the agency'salready paying for all the you
know evaluations, evaluationsand consultations, then they are
paying for that too.
Of course, at the end of theday it's coming from the IP's

(30:00):
pocket, but they're not seeingit directly.
If it's intended you know,intended, I mean independent
journey then you know they arepaying the fee directly towards
me.
So, or you know, sometimes itis kind of coming directly
towards me from them, but fromthe escrow, so they don't see it
as.
But basically, the intendedparents are paying the cost at
the end of the day.
And so that's also some of thereason there's pushback right.

(30:20):
It's like here's one more thingwe have to pay for.
And look at the end of the day,the price of that is a.

Speaker 4 (30:27):
You know this is some yes, it's trouble, like
compared to everything they'repaying and so I, but I get it
right, like why even payanything?

Speaker 3 (30:34):
but I will say one thing I'm pretty sure, like
maybe I don't know, maybe once Idon't.
I can't even think of a timewhere every single time they say
the same thing to me again.
This was so helpful and lovely.
I'm so glad we did this.
Oh, I'm so glad.
I've even had, like the lasttime I did, I even had someone
apologize to me, said I feltlike I was kind of like bitchy
Um, that's what she said to meand I'm I want to apologize for

(30:56):
that, because I just thoughtthis was going to be a waste of
my time and this was actuallyreally great.
Wow, wow, I am amazed.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
Right, that gets out there as more people do joint
sessions and surrogates talk andI piece and people just, yeah,
this is normal, this is a goodthing.
Nobody's judging you Likeyou're not about judging.
This is when everybody hearsabout psychological tests, like
people just get it in theirheads.

(31:25):
I was there a long time ago,but now it's like yeah, talk to
me, figure out my nuances,figure out what's up with me,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
And even when I'm doing evaluations, I'm not
looking for someone perfect.
I don't want someone perfect.
I want someone who is human.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Human yes.
Right exactly, and I think, alot of the times I mean I can't
speak from an intended parent'spoint of view, but as a
surrogate gestational carrierit's very like we all have this
fear in the back of our head,like what if I say the wrong
thing Now, I'm done.
I met these wonderful people,I'm out.

(31:58):
If they find out somethingabout me, I'm out.
And it's, and more times thannot, the thing that you're
afraid for someone to find out.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
It's not.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
It's not going to disqualify you, but there's this
fear that's been built in us.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
That's like and sometimes the agency perpetuates
that if you're like just, youknow, never make sure that they,
they know this is completelyaltruistic, that you're just
doing this because you love,love being pregnant, and you
know, and that's look, we knowthat there is a financial
component.
You know, we're not, we're notnaive, you know like.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
But I did my third one to pay for nursing school,
that I am 100% okay saying that.
I'm 100% okay saying that.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
Great.
It's like we're not naive aboutthis now.
Yes, Maybe there's people whowill do an altruistic journey,
and that's great.
I love that.
But also it does benefitgestational peers and there's
nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
No, no it's not, there's, there's.
I always say, if, if it's okayto be a nanny and to be
compensated to watch your childearthside, then it's okay to
treat me as a nannypre-earthside.
So the compensation it doesn't.
I don't understand.
I never understand why that'salways a topic.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
And I will say most intended parents.
They're fine with it, like, andin fact, after it, I think
they're actually grateful thatthey got to help.
So I'm actually grateful that Igot to give back, Right, yeah,
yeah, we hear that.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
We hear that a lot too when we talk to intended
parents, they're like nope,we're happy to you.
Know they're doing somethingthat's priceless, like it's.
You know you're doing it withcompensation.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
It literally helps everybody Right.
You don't have to go into it,even if she's getting just that
feeling that she gets to see,you know that she helped the
family.
That's also something she'sgaining.
Yep, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (33:44):
And it just spreads itself out like a fan, because
grandparents are being made fromright and aunts and uncles and
on the side of the surrogate ifit is going for a down payment
of a house or what have youmaybe putting herself through
school, whatever it is that'sgoing to benefit her for the
rest of her life, like thisisn't just a one and done, it's
going to benefit families foryears years Right.

(34:07):
Yeah, so it's phenomenal to me.
But yeah, okay, back topsychology.
Sorry.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Do you have any advice?
Like, do you have any advicefor people that might be like
nervous or this is their, thisis their first journey?
Like either on on either side.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, admit you're nervous.
That, I think, is the bestthing, right, when you come on
and you say I'm feeling nervous,that already kind of like takes
it down a notch and lets thetherapist know that this is
really hard, you know, and thenhelps me to understand, to guide
it in maybe a different way.
So I already know if I'm goingwith a gestational carrier, like

(34:43):
doing an evaluation, who's donethis maybe two or three times,
I know she's probably going toshow up differently than the
first time, right, and so I can,I can be more gentle in the
beginning.
I can build that rapport first.
You know I want them to feelsafe with me, that I'm not here
to judge them, that I'm herejust to make sure that this is
the right time in the rightplace for them and then to guide
the conversation when it's ajoint session, to just really

(35:03):
guide them together so that theyfeel so good and so strong at
the start so that even thoughthings might happen that might,
you know, fracture the bond alittle bit, that they know they
can recover.
They know there was a strongbond to begin with.
If you think about like arelationship, right, when two
people meet and they're dating,if they start off strong and
they have a good start, thenwhen things happen, when

(35:25):
ruptures happen, it's easier tocome back than if their starts,
you know, was like a littlerocky and awkward and you know,
maybe I don't know they had likesome kind of weird hookup in
the bathroom and then that, youknow, turned into a relationship
right after, without any.
You know, foundation Right.
So we're building thefoundation so that when cracks
happen, you know they rememberthat there's a foundation first.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, Very true.
I, as I'm, as you're talking,you're like you're saying all
these things and I'm like, oh mygosh, I should have asked this
question first, before I askedthe happy question.
But like, okay, so red flagsfor you when it comes to because

(36:11):
I feel like there's going to bered flags when you talk to a
gestational surrogate, because,again, you're not evaluating the
intended parents, you'reevaluating is this like the
right you said the right team,the right time, the right place
for her?
Are there anything that comesup like that, that would come up
, that you're like you know what?
This isn't the right time foryou.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Oh, for sure For a gestational carrier.
Yeah, I mean, and I hate whenthat happens, right, and it is
rare, because I think agenciesdo a really good job of
screening.
But look, there are things thatcome up sometimes that you think
this is not the right time.
If someone started this right,but then, as she's going through
it, her partner cheats on herand now they're thinking about

(36:47):
breaking up and the house islike tumultuous and you know
there's maybe a custody battlegoing on, you know that it
doesn't mean she can't one daydo this, but this is not the
right time for her to do it,right, right.
So if you see a intended parentwho is going to be very
invasive or who's saying to melike well, I kind of want her to

(37:08):
live in our back house, ordoing some weird things, like
showing up when they're notsupposed to to the screening
because they want to like be soinvolved, you know, and they
never even said it like.
Or saying I'm going to makesure she can't eat this and I
want to know every day whatshe's eating, you know, I think

(37:28):
then you have to say, okay,let's step back and let's do a
little bit of education firstand make sure, because we want
to keep the gestational carriersafe too.
Right For sure.
Because that's a lot of pressure, yeah, and I think that's the
thing I think gestationalcarriers go into this thinking
like we're against them and forthe IPs, which I think maybe
sometimes feels like that withthe agencies, right, but that's

(37:49):
not our goal.
Our goal is to make sure thisis the right fit for everybody.

Speaker 4 (37:52):
Yeah yeah, I don't know why they're all not making
it happen.
I think this needs to be inevery single, whether it's a
single intended parent and agestational carrier or two
parents like I.
It needs to be in every singlejourney, like hands down.
Sorry, I think it does theguideline.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
I'm shocked to hear it's in the guidelines and it's
not being right, being like yes,has to happen, Because there
are a lot of things on therethat are like no, those have to
happen.
So you would think that thiswould be one of them.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
One of those that can be skipped.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
Yeah, and I'm hoping eventually you know, maybe the
next years or so it won't beskipped, because I think it's
invaluable.
I really really do think it'sinvaluable.
I know it's another hour or anhour and a half out of
everybody's life.
It's another check thing thatyou have to do before you can
move on.
But you're creating life forsomeone else, like it's a big,
big deal.
It's not just oh, let me getpregnant, carry this baby and

(38:48):
I'll just here you go.
That's not what this is.
It's people's lives are atstake.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
Right and why not start strong?
Instead of try to hope thatthat builds as it, which you
know often it does and it does,and it can still be beautiful
journey, you know, without,without this right.
But why not start it off withthat strong foundation and just
get a feel for how theirmannerisms, how they talk to
each other?
Are they casual?
Are they more serious?

(39:14):
All these things are just.
Even if you're not likevocalizing it, you're noticing
things by interacting with them.
Yes, agreed.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
I agree If somebody takes the lead in the
conversation and the other one'smaybe not as accessible, and
because that sometimes happen,really just one parent wants to
get all the information and theother one it's relayed to them
later because maybe of their jobor whatever, and they're just
not as accessible.
Know that.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
Know that right, and you touched on this a little bit
before.
Sometimes the most helpful partof it is even just the partner
gets to see what's.
You know, sometimes they don'treally.
They're just like, yes, signingoff on it.
They're like, yes, my, you know, my wife really wants to do
this.
I've read enough about it or Italked enough about it, and so I
get it.
But now they get to really seethe other side of you know, they

(40:00):
get to maybe hear a story thatthat feels touching for them.
They start to now feel a lotmore involved too and that also
helps them be even moresupportive for the gestational
care, because now they reallysee there's people on the other
side of this that really careand that are really thankful.
So I think all that is superhelpful for them to see.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yes, oh yeah, I think so for sure.
I mean, they're not strangersanymore.
Like I said, I've been on thisjourney with my IM for over a
year, at like a year and a half,and he just met her, like not
that long ago, and it was likethey were like, oh hi, we never
met.
And I'm like, but y'all know me, like right, we should have met
, right, but there was justnever a, there was never a

(40:41):
session, there was neveranything where the both of us
needed to, where it was requiredthat the both of us needed to
be here, and so it just we justwent off my schedule.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
so and think about too, for for intended parents
how much better they will feelwhen they know who the partner
is right that they know, maybethe partner is a nice guy,
whereas I don't know whatthey're picturing.
You know, maybe they'repicturing something not so nice,
or maybe they're picturing thenicest guy, and then now they
actually are freaked out becausethey see that he's like super
aggressive with her and yells,you know.
And now there's an opportunityat least to say this doesn't

(41:12):
feel right.
So I mean, look, that doesn'treally happen, but every once in
a while it could.
I just think that knowing whatyou're getting into with both
people is so important.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
Oh and also the kids meeting the surrogates child or
children, because I mean I allmoms, I can't really speak for
them, but I'm going to put ageneralization out there.
We take pride in our children,Like mine are all adults and I
still take pride in my kids,Like so they're clean clothes
and they're and they're cute andthey're funny and they're
personable, Like that's.
These surrogates helped shapeand mold them, so they're going

(41:48):
to help do the same thing forthe baby they're carrying by
keeping it safe, If not safer,if that's a way to do it.
But I, when I carried, it wasalways like, oh my God, these
are not my babies, I'm not mybaby, I, oh God no.
But if it were mine, like it'dbe like okay, okay, I can do
that, or I can and not, notnegative things, no, like.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
I could have a.
I could have an extra Coketoday, coca-cola today, you know
like, but with like a surrogatebabe.
It's like no, it's not going todo any of the caffeine, that's
good.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Right.
And imagine too, if you knowthey're on a call with a joint
session and the gestationalcarrier is constantly talking
about how their kid did this orthey're, you know, they kind of
like joke about their kid a lotor they bring up their kid more
than now the IPs have a clue,ask about their kids.
You know the gestational carelikes to talk about her kids.
That's a way to bond, whereasif she really just never really

(42:38):
talks about them, you know, evenif I bring something up like
what is your schedule like withyour kids, and she just kind of
like brushes over it, now theIPs know she's a little bit more
, you know, protective of herkids right now.
Again, like it gives an idea ofhow to talk about things Right.
Or you know I can bring upthings too, like, again, this
goes like there's so many thingsright, like, let's say that I
intend to parents, maybe she'shad miscarriages every time.

(43:01):
You know, sometime before the12 week scan, right, and so I
can say you know what will it belike for you when she goes to
the six week or the nine week?
You know, like, is it somethingthat feels comfortable that you
want to like be a part of Doyou not want to?
And she might say you know what?
I don't, I'm not sure I'm goingto be one apart, I'm going to I
don't know.
And that's great Cause.

(43:21):
Now the gestational carrierknows not to be offended if she
says I just can't right now,right, right.

Speaker 4 (43:33):
Cause that could be.
That's how it's misinterpreted.
That's right if it's not talkedabout, and then it's right from
the start.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
Now you're not.
You know you had this likeweird thing and so now you don't
know how to like navigate it.
And then later on, maybe at the20 week, you know the intended
parent wants to be more involvedand now the social care is
confused because I thought shedidn't want to be right again.
All these things we've talkedabout from the very beginning.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
Now we're on the same page yeah, yeah, but it helps,
especially if both parties arefirst timers or if one's a first
timer, to have someone like youto bring up these questions,
because you know the things tobring up, you know the things to
talk about, you know the thingsto address, because as you're
saying that I'm like oh that'sinteresting.
That happened in mine literallynever clicked until right this

(44:13):
second, Because it was justnever talked about, and then the
baby was here.
So we were all like woohoobaby's here, Like we're happy
now, Like so interesting Right.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Because the gestational carrier, she goes
into this thinking this is goingto be celebratory, Everyone's
going to get so excited, I'mgoing to be lovely.
And maybe she doesn't realizeyou know the pain that the
intended parents have maybe beenthrough already and so maybe
she feels, you know, overlyenthusiastic where the IPs are
not matching that at all.
And again, now, if we talkedabout it already, she already

(44:44):
knows what to expect.
It's not a surprise why my IPsare a little bit, you know,
reserved Right, Yep.

Speaker 4 (44:52):
Wow, this is going to be incredibly helpful, I think
in more ways than one.
Like, and I'm like I just if asurrogate or gestational carrier
is just like oh my gosh, I haveto do another session or I have
to do something, what are theylooking for?
Like, I think this is going tojust squall all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
It's just curious for you, cause you said to me you
thought maybe the gestationalcarrier was one who would push
back.
What, why do you?
Why did you think that?
Is it something that youthought maybe you would push
back on?
I?

Speaker 4 (45:17):
did push back on it A hundred percent.
I pushed back on psych evals.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Yep the evals they're not a joint session or just the
evals.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
I never got offered a joint session because it was so
long ago, but I pushed back onthe on a normal evaluation, you
post back.
Yeah, I did.
And here's why let me get to.
Why the first one?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
That's what I was.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
When we got to the third one,um, I kind of knew the ropes
right.
I'd already I just did atriplet pregnancy.

(45:47):
I was like we can just get thisdone and I'm like you already
have my.
I went with the same agency,you already have it from before
and I just, and I, I did.
I pushed back a little bit.
I had to get another one.
It was okay, whatever, here wego, but I just wanted to move
Cause I had a timeline.
I'm happy, I am.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
I can say that I had a time but you almost died in
that journey.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
So yeah, you should have had a psychological
evaluation.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
How did we know that was going to?

Speaker 2 (46:10):
happen.
How did we know that?

Speaker 4 (46:12):
was going to happen.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
No, I know, but I'm just saying if that was, if
that's what happened in yoursecond journey and on your third
journey you pushed back for apsychological evaluation after
you basically like had to have ablood transfusion and
everything like that, Like yeahthat's fine.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
So on your second, when you had to have the blood
transfusion, third yeah, it wastriplets and all the placenta
stuck and I yeah.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
So it doesn't wait.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
but so you know right , you know that you're okay to
go on the third one, becauseyou're saying why do I do it?
I know I'm okay, but noteveryone else knows that.
Correct.

Speaker 4 (46:40):
And not the intended parents, wouldn't have known
that.
So had we had a joint session,that stuff could have come up.
But I was like being verydefensive, like Nope, I can do
this.
My ut doctor said everything'sgreat, I'm cleared, let's go.
Yeah, now, seeing everythingthat's happened before and I'm
seeing all of this through thepodcasts we do and all the
stories we hear, this isinvaluable.
Joint session, like, honestly,this needs to be pushed for and

(47:03):
put in everybody's journey.
I, it's invaluable.
I, how could it not be?
I, yeah, I don't see anythingnegative about it, I just don't
just like time consuming.
That's it.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Right Like yeah, I don't see anything negative
about it, I just don't.
It's just time consuming.
That's it really Like.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Rachel said the worst that happens is that you guys
get to know each other a littlebit more and it wasted an hour
of your life, right, but?
And you?

Speaker 4 (47:22):
have a buffer, you have a person who's like the
intermediate, the mediator.
That's huge Cause you canhonestly your journeys.
You got on zoom calls and youragency jumped off and it was
just you guys and you guys weretalking.
Yeah, my psychological.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
So, oh, you know what ?
Actually, my third journey.
Now that you mentioned that,the reason it didn't pop into my
head is because the my, thepsychologist that was there.
She was there for two minutesand then she left and jumped off
and that was the worst journeyI've ever had you know that's
very unethical.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
I hope that wasn't supposed to be a joint session I
don't know what it was.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
Yeah, I don't know what it, because also the case
manager was on there with us,but the psychologist was there
with us too, and it was beforecontracts and it was after, like
my personal psychologicalevaluation.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
So they was.
It was the just like uh, thepsych colleges.
Were they like um contracted orwere they an employee of the
agency?

Speaker 2 (48:19):
no, they said that they were a third party, but
it's the only year then theywork with very, very weird.

Speaker 4 (48:24):
Yeah, that's, and I only remember that because she
like texted real fast goes, youwant to come up and meet them.
And I was like I went upstairsand like I got on and said oh,
oh, hey, how you doing Likecause you were solo, you were by
yourself for that Almost.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
I think about you know even if you do that, like I
get why some people say, well,they'll just talk, you know
themselves in the beginning.
But what if it's two really shypeople or you know two again
people pleasers and they don'twant to say some up the hard
things, right?
I mean, even I don't love doingit.
It's not like I'm like, heyguys, let's all talk about
termination, this is not likethat.
But I know it's my job and Iknow I do it well.

(49:00):
I know I can navigate it well,so that's my purpose, right.
And you do it in such a safespace.

Speaker 4 (49:06):
I keep saying the word safe in my head going.
I would need this If I were todo it.
I would need this joint sessionto just feel good.
Going in just okay, things arecool, but also the comfort that
comes with it.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Okay, the comfort that comes with it, Cause I'm an
experienced surrogate.
So, and because we do thispodcast and I know what what
kind of goes on but if you're anew surrogate.
I think what sticks in the mindof psychologists, like having to
like go and talk to them, evenif it's a joint session, it's
like what are they going backand telling the agency?
Like what am I, are they myteacher?
Like am I being told on?

(49:41):
Like things like that.
And so I'm just going to likebluntly ask is that what happens
?
Like right.

Speaker 3 (49:48):
So what we do, we write a report and in the report
we will only put things that wethink are very relevant to you
know.
So if we hear something that iscompletely unrelevant, that
maybe they went through and Idon't think it's relevant to the
journey, there's no need for meto say.
But if something happened, likesexual trauma or something I
won't, I won't explicitly saywhat happened, you know to her.

(50:12):
I won't explicitly say whathappened, you know to her.
But what I will say is she hadexperienced, maybe, sexual
trauma.
She worked it out, she hadtherapy.
I'm, you know it's not aconcern, right?
So I don't need to put a bunchof details, but I do need to say
something.
Or if there's some kind of legalbattle going on with the you
know husband with his work right, it's, it's, it's could

(50:33):
possibly cause some kind ofconflict, and it's not to say
she can't now do this, but Ithink it's important for the
agency to be aware this is goingon.
So it's not that we're tryingto out them, we just want to
make sure she's supported, right?
So if they know this is goingon, maybe they check in on her
about that, if they're going todo this right now, or they look
into it a little bit with withthe attorney to make sure that

(50:53):
you know it's okay to keep goingLike.
We just want to protecteveryone, so we're not trying to
eliminate.
I don't want to eliminatepeople unless I really think
that it's not good for them,that this is going to cause a
lot of conflict, right, Okay?

Speaker 4 (51:05):
And at that point a professional is the one who
decided, or along with theagency, or who just yeah, that
this wasn't a good thing, andI'm sure it doesn't happen a
whole lot, but when it does, itprobably needed to, like that's
I mean, right.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
If anything we try to , we want this to work.
We would hate going back andsaying this isn't great.
You know, that's I.
That's like the worst feeling,you know.
I know that this listen.
Sometimes I'll have agestational carrier.
This is rare too, but it doeshappen where she is kind of like
skirting her partner coming andkind of being like vague about
it and their partner has to bethere for that clinical

(51:40):
interview.
If there's a partner, I cannotin good faith say yeah, you know
I'm not breaking up familieshere, jeez, oh wow, but it's
always in the best interest ofthe surrogate whether they
realize that, at the moment ornot.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
Wow, this has been wonderful.
Yeah, this has been great.
I really do hope that this islike 100%, like instilled in
every part of every journey.
This becomes part of everysingle journey.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
Right.
It becomes every journey.
It needs to.
It needs to.
Is there anything we forgot?
Is there anything we didn'ttouch on?
That you want to, that you wantto put in?
Do you want to touch on it?

Speaker 3 (52:20):
I guess the only thing is you know, if you are a
gestational carrier, you know,try not to think of us, as you
know your tattletale, you said,or you know the, the teacher
who's going to get you introuble, like we're, we're
actually on your side here too.
You know, we want this to belike really great for you, like
I will also teach them how toadvocate for themselves if I see
that they are like.

(52:40):
I had one recently who who saidI, I will terminate if they
want.
The only way I would notterminate is if my life is on
the line.
And I'm thinking wait a minute,that sound right?
I'm like you're telling me thatif your life is on the line,
she's like I have to protect thebaby.
And I was like do you, do?
You think you have to say that?
And she's like well, yeah,isn't that what you have to say?
And I was like no, you do nothave to say that.

(53:01):
I was like absolutely not right.
So like sometimes, because youlook, I know that everyone goes
down the facebook rabbit holeand so many gestational carriers
already have watched tiktokvideos and they know so much
about it and oftentimes theyhave a great agency who tells

(53:24):
them all about this stuff.
But that's not always the case.
Sometimes you get people whoreally are a lot more.
You know what's the word I'mlooking for.
They're a lot more.
Yeah, I didn't want to say alittle bit, because they're not
naive, they're just.
They're just.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
Maybe you know not as well versed, yet right right,
they, they.

Speaker 3 (53:42):
The idea was great.
Maybe they saw an ad, butthey're not well versed yet in
what it's really about.
So that you know at least.
I'm here to tell them a littlebit more about what it's about,
what, what to expect, what youknow, rights they have, yeah for
sure.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Oh goodness, Now if people I have one more question
Go If they are doing anindependent, if an intended
parent comes to you and they'relike we're doing an independent
journey, can people just reachout to you without going with
like an agency and like a clinic?
Of course, of course, Okay, andif it's independent journey, do

(54:18):
you recommend to them that youalso do a joint?

Speaker 3 (54:21):
session.
Yes, for independent journeys.
I say, you know, I might evensay that if I'm going to do the
evaluation, I also require youto do a joint session.
Sure, because that's bestpractices.
And so they might say, yeah, Idon't want to go with you.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
Okay, okay, well, yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Okay, where can they reach you Like?
Where, where?

Speaker 3 (54:44):
can people find you Um rachelgoldbergtherapycom or
rachelgoldbergtherapy onInstagram.

Speaker 4 (54:51):
Yeah, I found you very easily.
Yes, and it was a wealth ofinformation on there.
I was like, oh my gosh, she is.
This is like all aboutinfertility and pregnancy and
postpartum and all the issues,and I was intrigued because I
was like, how and you alreadyanswered it in the beginning but
how did you navigate that Likeand get there?
Cause we've talked to somepeople who it was, after they

(55:13):
got their, their, you know, andthey were like I kind of like
this specialty and then theykind of went that route, but it
looked like you just went thewhole way.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
It was cool, yes, nice, I yeah, I have a lot, yeah
, I have a lot of posts on, youknow, different feelings that
come up again.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
I try to concentrate on the emotional side of it,
because I think that's somethingthat's often people don't talk
about is the emotional side ofit all yeah and as she was just
saying something, but like say,I'm the surrogate and I'm having
, I'm having my session with you, but I have some questions that
I'm kind of like afraid to askthe agency or I'm not.
Please ask me.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
Yes, yeah, can I ask?
you yeah, please ask me.
I always say all the time I Isay, is there any questions for
me?
And I ask you like severaltimes, trying to really say like
it's okay, you can ask me.
But still often I think theyfeel like they can't.
Yeah, and I understand.
But you know, I really try tomake it a very comfortable thing
.
So I asked them from the verybeginning.
I'll say are you nervous?

(56:03):
And they'll usually say I am.
I'm like, ah, don't be nervous.
And then I'll throw in a little, you know, in.
I'll try to build a rapportlike I want them to.
I want them to come away fromthis thinking like, oh, that
wasn't so bad right yeah,exactly and you know I've I've
talked to a couple, I've talkedevery journey.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
It's been a different , um, it's been a different
psychologist.
And the ones that are alwaysstart off kind of like with the
joke or like lighten the mood,yeah, it always just like puts
me at ease right away, whereasthe other ones like okay, so
like this and that, and it'slike oh my god, all right to
start off right on those likequestions.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
That's right.
Tell me about who you are andlike why you do this like it's
like, oh, okay yeah, I think thefunniest or not the funniest,
the hardest one.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
The hardest question I got was like so describe
yourself in three words.
I'm like, oh okay, do I have tolike can we?
That was like the firstquestion that they said they
didn't ask my name.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
That's a tough question.
I'm not even sure how I would.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
Yeah so it started off very stressful, but no
talking to you has been.
Yeah, this has been great verycalming, very easy, and I I mean
I love it all and the fact thatI hope they always feel that
way with me.
I, I hope everyone always comesback and goes.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
that was easy, that was fun.

Speaker 4 (57:15):
You kind of have that demeanor Like you're calm,
you're casual, you're wearing anice little sweater, you look
all cozy, like I'm just like wow, I just want to go and have
some coffee with her, Like Ijust.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
Yeah, that's what I hope.
It feels like we're justtalking about your life, retro
life.
Well, you know what, how youhope this journey is going to go
.
You know what the expectationsare?

Speaker 4 (57:33):
yeah because you got to talk to somebody.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
Yeah, you know, yeah sometimes we can laugh about the
shots.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
You know how they feel like you know just yeah,
like yes, it's very serious, andit it is very seriously, I
don't take it lightly at all,but also like we can, you know,
we can also smile yeah, for sure, exactly Cause, hopefully, in
the end this is a happy, happything and we're all coming to
the end result of a baby for afamily that maybe there wasn't

(57:59):
going to be a family and alsowhen I, you know, one thing I
didn't say is one thing that Italk about is what do they want
this to look like at the end?

Speaker 3 (58:06):
You know, oftentimes things are just like IPs leave
the hospital and nobody knowswhat to do after that.
You know, right.
So let's let me talk about itright now.
Like, how do you guys want toend this?
Like, you know, is it a goodbyeat the hospital?
Can we talk on zoom later?
Can the kids, you know, meetthe baby?
Like yeah, it's like I'm askingthe question for them and now
it's like, oh well, we talkedabout this, we know that her kid

(58:27):
wants to meet the baby, sowe're going to try to make that
happen, even if, if it's overzoom, right, yeah, again, it's
been talked about because if she, if the IPs leave the GC,
doesn't want to reach out andsay can my kids, you know, right
, right, right.

Speaker 4 (58:39):
Cause they're going to be busy having their new baby
and they probably don't wantthe extra germs and all that
it's.
It's a different.
They're now parents and theyhave a different mindset
sometimes when they're IPs,versus now we're literally
parents.
Yeah, and I got to respect that.
I do have to respect it.
So if it's brought up and it'stalked about, at least people
maybe have an understanding ofwhat it might it might happen.
I remember one of mine.

(58:59):
It was like they had to.
They had to send me a pictureevery six months, like it was
like they had to.
And I'm like, yeah, no, if youdon't want to, like if we're not
that close, then forget it.
Like yeah, and it fizzled out.
They didn't abide by thecontract and I was just like you
know, that's fine, we'll justit's fine, but yeah, so it's

(59:21):
come a whole, a long way in twodecades.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
It's really yeah, I mean I've listened to some of
yours and from what I can tellthat you guys have had some very
interesting journeys yeah,don't yeah yeah, but you know,
you learned from, you learnedfrom them and yes

Speaker 2 (59:37):
like I'm lucky in the sense that I learned from her
three before I started my firstone, and then I learned from all
of mine, and so now I'm verylike this is what I do know, I
want my contract.
This is the things I don't careabout, these are the things
that I do want to happen in thisjourney.
These are the things that Idon't.
So, unfortunately, it does alsojust take experiencing it

(59:58):
yourself, if you know, if youdon't hear other stories, to
know, oh wait, that should be aboundary.
Oh wait, no, that's okay, I'mcool with that one.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
It's, it's very different, and you know this was
about the joint session, butyou know you asked me to like
what I would say in theevaluation.
So if they haven't matched itcause, a lot of agencies which I
love when they do this haven'tmatched yet they send me the
evaluation first and then I will.
You know, maybe not in thereport but I'll give them a
little of a side.
But I think they would be wellmatched with someone like this

(01:00:25):
Cause, you know, I know I got tofeel for their personality.
So I know are they someone who'stalkative and they want someone
who's going to be very engaging, or are they more reserved and
maybe we find something a littlebit more?
You know, businesslike, right,right.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
That's helpful, because agencies just have a
number of intended parents andthen to try and fit that peg
into that square, right, you'relike, oh, I don't know, is that
going to happen?
Yeah, and when I did it, it waswhoever was next on the list.
That's how they did it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
That makes sense.
Did you have a choice, did you?
Could you say no or no?
The second journey.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
I had a big choice I made.
I'm like, uh, send me profiles.
Like the first one, I was likehere you go, Bad, bad match.
Second one I, I and that secondone I'm.
That's the triplets.
I'm very close to them.
I just went to one of theircollege graduations, Like, yeah,
it's, it's ridiculous, Like,and we were talking about
weddings and and when theybecome parents, and I'm like, oh
my God, this is great.

(01:01:17):
Yeah, and that's what everyonehopes for, right, that kind of
thing, yeah, and I just luckedout and got that because,
honestly, I didn't have all ofthese resources that they, that
y'all, have now I didn't.
So it was.
It was the couple in myself.
We just wanted to make ithappen and we did, and I'm so,
so thankful because that getsyou through lots of stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
That's the goal journey.
Yeah, that's the standards forme.

Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
Yeah Well, you'll get it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Oh yeah, it's all good.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
It's all good, I'm happy Thank you so much for
taking the time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Thank you, guys much for taking the time.
Thank you guys.
Thank you guys, so much forhaving me been amazing okay so
nice to meet you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
So nice to meet you.
Thank you so much.
Maybe one day we'll actuallymeet.
Since we are not so far apart,I know there'll be like an event
or something we can go a littledrive, yeah, yeah, that'd be
awesome, all right thank youguys thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Have a great evening me too wow, way different than
what I thought it would be like,right, yeah it was one.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
It was wonderful on the joint session standard.

Speaker 4 (01:02:19):
It needs to be standard, like in every journey,
don't you think?

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
well, yeah, I mean again, I've only had it.
I guess I had it one point onetime, yeah, yeah, like yeah yeah
, because and that girl had noidea what she was like she had,
she like was very blunt, likebefore she was like oh I don't
that was in 2023.
She's like I have no idea, I'venever done one of these, but
like the agency is requiring itand I'm like okay, well, that's

(01:02:44):
too bad, she that you were herfirst.
I'm so sorry it's okay, it wasinteresting.
Yeah, I don't remember it, butit was interesting yeah so, but
no, this, this does sound great.
I wish I did that with my, withmy current yeah yeah, we'll see
if any others are in the future, um, but uh, thank you, rachel,

(01:03:04):
this was very informative verygood, very fun um, if anybody
has any questions or storiesthey would like to share with us
, please feel free to reach outto us on instagram at stop
period sit period surrogate.
Or you can email us at stopperiod sit period surrogate at
gmailcom.
And also, you guys, you cancheck our website.
Yes, you can.
I know Like we should have likeannounced this in like earlier

(01:03:28):
podcasts, but it's okay.

Speaker 4 (01:03:30):
It's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
It's okay, but our website is stopsitsurrogatecom
and you can find all the thingsthere.
Yes, all the things.

Speaker 4 (01:03:40):
So and more to come of the things, more to come More
exciting things to come.
We're trying, actuallyKennedy's trying, ellen's just
adding a little bit, but Kennedy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
That is so sweet.
To admit the truth, I I loveher Kennedy is doing a lot of it
.

Speaker 4 (01:03:55):
99 point some percent of it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
I have the support of you.
Yeah, for sure, you know.
I love it and I'm doing theblogs.

Speaker 4 (01:04:03):
I'm doing the blogs, so I'm trying.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
I just said you do the blogs.
I'm so happy for you.
I'm thank you.
This is amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
Yes, it's fine.
Okay, All right.
So it's been another edition ofStop Sit Surrogate with Kennedy
and Ellen.
Thanks for listening, bye, bye.
If you enjoyed this podcast, besure to give us a like and
subscribe.
Also, check out the link to ourYouTube channel in the

(01:04:33):
description, and be sure to alsocheck out our children's book
my Mom has Superpowers, sold onAmazon and Etsy.