Please note, this episode was filmed as a video interview and is available on ASPI's Youtube channel here: https://youtu.be/sg32zmJKk70
In today’s episode of Stop the World, we hear from Emmanuel Bautista, a retired Philippines general who served as Chief of Staff of the Armed Forces in 2013 and 2014 and who spoke at ASPI’s recent defence conference on preparedness and resilience.
General Bautista gives his frank views on the Philippines efforts to stand firm against China’s assertiveness in the South China Sea, the opportunities for deeper defence cooperation between the Philippines and Australia, and the merits of an Asian security pact, which some influential strategists have proposed.
He talks about the Philippines’ own military evolution and the enormous importance of rules to encourage stability in the Indo-Pacific.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Stop the world. Welcome to STOP THE WORLD.
I'm David Rowe. And I'm Olivia Nelson.
Today we've got an interview with Emmanuel Batista, a retired
Philippines general who served as chief of staff of the Armed
Forces in 2013 and 2014 and who spoke at Asby's recent Defence
conference on preparedness and resilience.
General Bautista gives his frankviews on the Philippines efforts
(00:23):
to stand firm against China's assertiveness in the South China
Sea, the opportunities for deeper defence cooperation
between the Philippines and Australia, and the merits of an
Asian security pact which some influential strategists have
proposed. He also talks about the
Philippines own military evolution and the enormous
importance of rules to encouragestability in the Indo Pacific.
General Bautista is softly spoken, but I'm sure you'll
(00:44):
agree his words pack a punch. Let's hear from him now.
Welcome to STOP THE WORLD. I'm David Rowe, and I'm here
with General Emmanuel Bautista, former chief of staff of the
Armed Forces of the Philippines.General, thanks for coming on
the programme. Thank you for inviting me, it's
a pleasure to be here. So you're in Canberra for ASP's
2025 Defence Conference Preparedness and Resilience.
(01:06):
We're very pleased to have you on the podcast.
While you're here, perhaps you can just set the scene for us by
telling us what preparedness andresilience means for the
Philippines and for its armed forces.
You know, I preparedness and resiliency just taken a lot more
prominence and in fact, I have more urgency this time given the
situation that we face, especially us, the Philippines
(01:29):
in the West Philippine Sea. We have a threat from China who
constantly thus aggressive actions against our sovereignty
and sovereign rights and we needto be prepared and resilient
destination to face all of those.
Now what does it take for us to be prepared and resilient?
(01:55):
2 things I can think of. Well, one, we need, we need to
enhance our national capabilities the certain
certainly the future is uncertain and so we need to be
prepared for that. We don't know when China or what
China will do. And while we have allies, we're
(02:18):
not even sure if alliances can be depended upon.
At the end of the day, it's it'son us.
We need to be prepared and resilient.
How do we do that? I talked about the instruments
of national power, of the diplomatic, political, legal,
(02:44):
information, economic, military.First, diplomatically, we need
to improve our relations. We need to reach out to the
international community so we can leverage upon the
international community to bear upon China's adherence to the
rule of law, to international law.
(03:08):
Politically, we need to achieve a national cohesiveness.
We need the entire nation committed to this.
Legally, we need to further advance our legal position.
While we won at The Hague, we need to sustain that and to
(03:31):
ensure that that is affected, that is implemented now
information. We need to advance the
Philippine narrative, not just domestically but also
internationally to get the support of the international
(03:51):
community and internally so thatwe can achieve national
cohesiveness, so that we are able to advance the Philippine
interest, the Philippine position, and we there while we
like. I would admit that we have not
achieved that 100%. But if you will observe the
(04:15):
surveys, most Filipinos would like to advance our national
interests as far as the West Philippine Sea is concerned, as
far as China is concerned. Yep.
Yep. So domestic political opinion is
is is very much on that side. Yes, while we see contrary
opinion, majority of Filipinos believe in the Philippine
(04:39):
position. Can I just ask you to talk a bit
more about the diplomatic side as well?
I mean, how do you feel that's going?
Is is the is the support there from the rest of the world?
Compared to when we first filed a case or in fact when the the
initial aggression that China did, we have gone a long way.
(05:02):
More countries now support us internationally, not just in the
in the Indo Pacific but also in Europe and around the world.
While I admit we still have to get the support the the
commitment of our ASEAN neighbours, hopefully sometime
(05:31):
they will also realise the the need to support the film is
after all, what we're advancing is not just our interests, it's
the interests of everybody. We're advancing the rules based
international order, we're advancing international law and
all of us needs to support that.Yeah, absolutely.
(05:53):
Let me just, let me just reinforce that and agree with
you because I think, you know, countries that do stand up for,
for rules and principles, they are a bit like, you know,
Ukraine is standing up to, to aggression right now and it and
it, it deserves the world's support.
I feel very strongly about that.And I think I, I, I also feel
strongly that countries like thePhilippines that are standing up
against that kind of bullying and coercion.
They really are standing up for the principles that that serve
(06:16):
all of us and therefore should be supported by all of us.
Yes, we're in this together. I, I believe international rules
based international order and it's going to affect not just
the Philippines, but the rest ofthe world.
It's, I mean, do we allow violation of international law?
(06:41):
What will follow after that? We've seen that in, in Ukraine.
So and so we need to at some point take a position on this
while we, while we are out thereat the front, we hope the rest
of the world will support us. Can you talk, I mean, just in,
(07:03):
in terms of the preparedness andresilience a bit more in, in
terms of the military power, thehard power, I mean, how is that?
How is the Philippines approaching that?
And what, what sort of is, is there a, you know, a
transformation, a reposturing ofthe the Philippines armed forces
that is required as part? Of that, yes, we're trying to
achieve credible deterrence hereand there are several requisites
(07:28):
to achieve credible deterrence. Once is presence, we need to be
present in in the West Philippine Sea, show the flag
and and to to make sure that we are able to guard our borders,
our territory, our enforce our sovereign rights.
(07:51):
Also in the EZ, mere presence alone is a deterrence.
Secondly, we need to upgrade ourmilitary capabilities, not
necessarily to take on China, but just a modicum capability so
so so that we are able to somehow raise the bar in as far
(08:15):
you know, when when a bully knows that you are capable of
hurting him, he will hesitate. So that's what we hope to
achieve, the ability to hurt himeven a little so that he will
feel the pain when he transgresssovereignty and sovereign
rights. The third one is the
(08:39):
cohesiveness of our alliances. You know, our the alliance is
credible only if it is cohesive.And we want to achieve the
cohesiveness of our alliance. Now we have 1 treaty ally in the
United States. We hope to expand it further.
We hope to deepen more our alliance.
And finally, is decisiveness thewill to fight, to push back?
(09:07):
You know, a bully will somehow hesitate if he knows you're
going to fight back and you havethe ability to at least hurt
him. So that's what we're trying to
achieve, a modicum of deterrence, credible deterrence,
so at least we can dissuade. And how do you project that?
(09:29):
How do you project? How do you signal that
decisiveness? It's your willingness to take
on, I mean, to assert your rights, your sovereign rights
and your sovereignty. You know, in the past, we see
some of our leaders saying that,no, there's no way we can defeat
(09:52):
China, so might as well be friends with China.
I mean, I don't believe in that.I believe that we need to stand
up for our rights and show that we are willing to assert our
rights. And that's through consistency
of action, actually demonstrating it through Action
Day and. Day.
Yes. Yes.
(10:13):
Talk a bit more about that, thatpartnership aspect.
I mean, the, the, as you mentioned, you have one treaty
ally in the United States and that's, that's a key partnership
as it is for Australia as well and, and other countries.
I mean, there's a lot of commentary about the United
States right now. There's a lot of sense of
uncertainty and, and the mixed signals that other countries
feel they're getting from the United States.
(10:34):
How are you feeling? How's the Philippines feeling
about the the US relationship right now?
You know, I view it long term. We've been allies for a long
time. If you analyse the history of
Philippine US alliance, it has its ups and down oscillation of
the alliance and but always it goes back to the default, which
(10:59):
is the strength of the alliance.Our lowest point was in fact
when we terminated the military bases agreement and we're
nowhere like that, like that. We see the strength of the
alliance even with the new US administration so far, the
(11:23):
support of the Philippines and the commitment as stated by no
less than the Secretary of Defence and the Secretary of
State, the ironclad commitment to the alliance.
And so you have observed the themilitary assistance.
There was no pause in military assistance to the Philippines.
(11:46):
We have recently concluded with Faf Balikatan exercise continued
to demonstrate the cohesiveness of the ice.
In fact, new weapon systems wereintroduced during that exercise
to demonstrate the cohesiveness of the airlines and the
willingness to to help each other.
(12:07):
So, so far, I think the allianceremains to be cohesive.
It remains to be an important piece of our deterrence.
You can just imagine, had we no alliance with the US, what, what
else could the China, what else could China have done if there
(12:28):
was no alliance with you? Sure.
Yeah. And I must say Secretary
Hegseth's speech at Shangri La the, the, the section on the
Indo Pacific, which was actuallythe the bulk of it once there
were some some other remarks at the early on.
But I mean the, the, the, the essence of that speech about the
Indo Pacific was actually very strong.
It was a very strong statement of commitment to, to
(12:49):
partnerships in the Indo Pacificand to allies.
And obviously there are they, they brought up increased
defence investment spending fromallies, which is, which is not
surprising. But, but overall, I, I don't
know if you if you got a chance to, to, to hear the speech or to
read it, but it was actually very strong.
Yeah, it was a very, very strongspeech all.
(13:11):
Right, let's talk. Well, actually before we get on
to Australia, I am just interested in your view of a, a
broader network of, of Asian partnerships or even security
treaty allies. Eli Ratner, former senior
defence official in the the Biden administration, wrote a
piece in about a week ago in Foreign Affairs magazine calling
(13:35):
for an Asian security pact. He mentioned the current squad
countries, the Australia, Japan,the Philippines, United States
is the obvious starting point for that, that broader pact with
potentially other other countries joining down the
track. What did you make of that and
how do you think it will be received in the Philippines?
You know, personally I agree with that multilateral alliance.
(14:00):
Now we have bilateral alliances countries you mentioned we all
have bilateral alliances with the US.
The squad you mentioned, we're training together, we're we're
talking to each other and probably later on then that can
graduate into a more firmer multilateral arrangement.
And I guess other countries are welcome as well to join that.
(14:26):
After all, we're common in the the belief that the rules based
international order needs to be defended.
And that is a reason for us to to get together and defend
international law, the rules based international order which
(14:48):
is now being threatened. So and the the presence of that
threat alone perhaps is motivation for us to to get
together and have a more firmer commitment to to defending
against that. Yeah, I, I imagine that the, you
know, those, those firmer relationships, multilateral
(15:11):
relationships will come togetherover time with, you know,
increasing cooperation between different countries.
Do you feel as if that increasing cooperation is
progressing at a satisfactory pace at the moment?
I I believe so. If you observe the last
Balikatan exercise, we saw the presence of all these countries
(15:31):
that you mentioned. We hope we get more comfortable
with each other. We, we are able to have what you
know, we have mutual interest tobegin with.
We have common concerns then andin fact shared values and so
(15:52):
that that that all of that bindsus together.
So, and we hope as we are able to, to get together more often,
we are able to realise the need to to come with a come up with a
more firmer commitment to each other.
(16:13):
What about bilaterally between the Philippines and Australia
now? How do you assess the strength
of the relationship at the moment?
Are there things you'd like to see more of?
And what do you think that the two countries can do more of
together in the near term? Yeah, we've been strategic
partners for for a while alreadyand we have so far with
(16:36):
Australia the status of visitingforces agreement and we're we're
able to train together. We have defence cooperations in
areas, but again, going back to the Treaty alliance that we
mentioned earlier, perhaps in the future we we can have a more
(16:58):
firmer relationship, not necessarily bilateral only, but
as you said multilaterally that can be something we can look
forward to. But having said that, we, we
have been talking about militaryrelationship, but you know, in
(17:18):
fact military is not even sustainable if we, our economy
is not strong enough. And so we need to also perhaps
delve into that. It's not enough that we have a
military to military relationship, but we also have
to expand to economic, the economic realm and maybe all
(17:44):
other areas that we that we needto examine.
We mentioned about information, maybe getting together to to
have a common narrative. You know, China employs not just
(18:05):
military, employs information also economic, social, political
or all instruments of national power.
In fact, when we talk about classic China's strategic
thinking, Suichu, Mao, Cha Tung and now what we call hybrid
(18:27):
warfare, unrestricted warfare, grey zone, employing all means
other than military. So we need to cooperate in that
broad spectrum if we are to facethe threat that is obtaining
right now. That that's a really fantastic
point. I mean, the economic security, I
mean, obviously we can, we can trade, you know, trade, trade is
(18:49):
good, good thing between our twocountries, but also economic
security. How do we actually work together
to make sure that we can't be sort of coerced or put under
pressure by other actors, notably China?
Very important point. I suppose I, I'd welcome any
thoughts you have on, on how we might develop those sorts of
ideas, but in the information space as well.
(19:09):
What, what sort of impact do yousee in the Philippines at the
moment from those from the Chinese narratives?
I mean, do you, do you see them sort of interfering in in
Philippines politics on a regular basis to talk us through
that? Yes, you will observe China's
influence operation on a daily basis, not just information, but
(19:33):
also trying to influence our people, different sectors of
society to advance Chinese narrative, Chinese interests.
And some of us don't realise that, but we need to fight back.
(19:54):
I've been saying that even as wespeak.
China's waging war against us inthe information realm, at least
in the battle of narratives in keeping with.
Classic Chinese strategic thinking of employing all means.
But are we fighting back enough as allies?
(20:15):
Are we coordinating as allies toaddress all of those influence
operations? The disinformation going on,
cyber, we're so focused on military.
That's what I've been saying, but we need to also examine all
of this and I guess that's the way forward for us, as you are
(20:36):
asking what else we can do. So perhaps not just military
cooperation, more cooperation inthose areas, as you mentioned, a
lot of things we can do economically.
Yeah, to mention defence industries.
Yes, yeah, yeah. What, what's the common
narrative that you you see that we should be promoting Australia
(20:57):
and and the Philippines? Commonality as far as.
The well, the yeah, the narrative, the information
narrative, I suppose. I mean, it's it's, it's about
promoting a rules based order. Space order international law,
you know, adherence to unclose adherence to the the arbitration
(21:21):
decision which China is in fact ignoring claiming, for instance,
the entire South China Sea on onhistorical basis on different
basis. But we have to assert the
narrative of international law, of own clause of the arbitral
(21:48):
award, and that each country hasthe right to assert its own
sovereignty and sovereign rightswithout being bullied.
I mean, getting your way throughforce, that's not an acceptable
(22:10):
norm in international relations.And we need to to stand up
collectively as in fact, not just as allies, as a community
of nation. Sure.
I mean, since you touched on defence industry as well, I'm
just interested if if you have any particular views on that.
I'm, I'm aware that the Philippines has been putting a
(22:31):
lot of effort into its, I suppose, into developing its
economy at the, at the sort of technology end, I mean, building
data centres, AI preparedness, these sorts of things.
It's, it's, it's big on the Philippines agenda right now,
which is fantastic. I mean, do you see opportunities
for for sort of defence industryand technology cooperation?
Yes, a lot of areas we can do asyou mentioned technology
(22:54):
cooperation and also our we havecommon economic strengths like
in the minerals and in natural resources that we can cooperate
(23:16):
exploitation of natural resources and minerals.
Australia is very strong in thisstrategic minerals.
And also in fact, agriculture is1 area I should mention food
(23:36):
security. It's an important area to to
develop a resilience not just our countries, but our friends
and allies as well all. Right, well, lots to think about
and and lots to do. All right, General Batista,
thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
(23:57):
Well, thank you for having me here.
It's really a pleasure to exchange views about such an
important topic. Thanks.
That's all we have time for thisweek on STOP THE World.
Thanks for listening.
Stop the world. Welcome to STOP THE WORLD.
I'm David Rowe. And I'm Olivia Nelson.
Today we've got an interview with Emmanuel Batista, a retired
Philippines general who served as chief of staff of the Armed
Forces in 2013 and 2014 and who spoke at Asby's recent Defence
conference on preparedness and resilience.
General Bautista gives his frankviews on the Philippines efforts
(00:23):
to stand firm against China's assertiveness in the South China
Sea, the opportunities for deeper defence cooperation
between the Philippines and Australia, and the merits of an
Asian security pact which some influential strategists have
proposed. He also talks about the
Philippines own military evolution and the enormous
importance of rules to encouragestability in the Indo Pacific.
General Bautista is softly spoken, but I'm sure you'll
(00:44):
agree his words pack a punch. Let's hear from him now.
Welcome to STOP THE WORLD. I'm David Rowe, and I'm here
with General Emmanuel Bautista, former chief of staff of the
Armed Forces of the Philippines.General, thanks for coming on
the programme. Thank you for inviting me, it's
a pleasure to be here. So you're in Canberra for ASP's
2025 Defence Conference Preparedness and Resilience.
(01:06):
We're very pleased to have you on the podcast.
While you're here, perhaps you can just set the scene for us by
telling us what preparedness andresilience means for the
Philippines and for its armed forces.
You know, I preparedness and resiliency just taken a lot more
prominence and in fact, I have more urgency this time given the
situation that we face, especially us, the Philippines
(01:29):
in the West Philippine Sea. We have a threat from China who
constantly thus aggressive actions against our sovereignty
and sovereign rights and we needto be prepared and resilient
destination to face all of those.
Now what does it take for us to be prepared and resilient?
(01:55):
2 things I can think of. Well, one, we need, we need to
enhance our national capabilities the certain
certainly the future is uncertain and so we need to be
prepared for that. We don't know when China or what
China will do. And while we have allies, we're
(02:18):
not even sure if alliances can be depended upon.
At the end of the day, it's it'son us.
We need to be prepared and resilient.
How do we do that? I talked about the instruments
of national power, of the diplomatic, political, legal,
(02:44):
information, economic, military.First, diplomatically, we need
to improve our relations. We need to reach out to the
international community so we can leverage upon the
international community to bear upon China's adherence to the
rule of law, to international law.
(03:08):
Politically, we need to achieve a national cohesiveness.
We need the entire nation committed to this.
Legally, we need to further advance our legal position.
While we won at The Hague, we need to sustain that and to
(03:31):
ensure that that is affected, that is implemented now
information. We need to advance the
Philippine narrative, not just domestically but also
internationally to get the support of the international
(03:51):
community and internally so thatwe can achieve national
cohesiveness, so that we are able to advance the Philippine
interest, the Philippine position, and we there while we
like. I would admit that we have not
achieved that 100%. But if you will observe the
(04:15):
surveys, most Filipinos would like to advance our national
interests as far as the West Philippine Sea is concerned, as
far as China is concerned. Yep.
Yep. So domestic political opinion is
is is very much on that side. Yes, while we see contrary
opinion, majority of Filipinos believe in the Philippine
(04:39):
position. Can I just ask you to talk a bit
more about the diplomatic side as well?
I mean, how do you feel that's going?
Is is the is the support there from the rest of the world?
Compared to when we first filed a case or in fact when the the
initial aggression that China did, we have gone a long way.
(05:02):
More countries now support us internationally, not just in the
in the Indo Pacific but also in Europe and around the world.
While I admit we still have to get the support the the
commitment of our ASEAN neighbours, hopefully sometime
(05:31):
they will also realise the the need to support the film is
after all, what we're advancing is not just our interests, it's
the interests of everybody. We're advancing the rules based
international order, we're advancing international law and
all of us needs to support that.Yeah, absolutely.
(05:53):
Let me just, let me just reinforce that and agree with
you because I think, you know, countries that do stand up for,
for rules and principles, they are a bit like, you know,
Ukraine is standing up to, to aggression right now and it and
it, it deserves the world's support.
I feel very strongly about that.And I think I, I, I also feel
strongly that countries like thePhilippines that are standing up
against that kind of bullying and coercion.
They really are standing up for the principles that that serve
(06:16):
all of us and therefore should be supported by all of us.
Yes, we're in this together. I, I believe international rules
based international order and it's going to affect not just
the Philippines, but the rest ofthe world.
It's, I mean, do we allow violation of international law?
(06:41):
What will follow after that? We've seen that in, in Ukraine.
So and so we need to at some point take a position on this
while we, while we are out thereat the front, we hope the rest
of the world will support us. Can you talk, I mean, just in,
(07:03):
in terms of the preparedness andresilience a bit more in, in
terms of the military power, thehard power, I mean, how is that?
How is the Philippines approaching that?
And what, what sort of is, is there a, you know, a
transformation, a reposturing ofthe the Philippines armed forces
that is required as part? Of that, yes, we're trying to
achieve credible deterrence hereand there are several requisites
(07:28):
to achieve credible deterrence. Once is presence, we need to be
present in in the West Philippine Sea, show the flag
and and to to make sure that we are able to guard our borders,
our territory, our enforce our sovereign rights.
(07:51):
Also in the EZ, mere presence alone is a deterrence.
Secondly, we need to upgrade ourmilitary capabilities, not
necessarily to take on China, but just a modicum capability so
so so that we are able to somehow raise the bar in as far
(08:15):
you know, when when a bully knows that you are capable of
hurting him, he will hesitate. So that's what we hope to
achieve, the ability to hurt himeven a little so that he will
feel the pain when he transgresssovereignty and sovereign
rights. The third one is the
(08:39):
cohesiveness of our alliances. You know, our the alliance is
credible only if it is cohesive.And we want to achieve the
cohesiveness of our alliance. Now we have 1 treaty ally in the
United States. We hope to expand it further.
We hope to deepen more our alliance.
And finally, is decisiveness thewill to fight, to push back?
(09:07):
You know, a bully will somehow hesitate if he knows you're
going to fight back and you havethe ability to at least hurt
him. So that's what we're trying to
achieve, a modicum of deterrence, credible deterrence,
so at least we can dissuade. And how do you project that?
(09:29):
How do you project? How do you signal that
decisiveness? It's your willingness to take
on, I mean, to assert your rights, your sovereign rights
and your sovereignty. You know, in the past, we see
some of our leaders saying that,no, there's no way we can defeat
(09:52):
China, so might as well be friends with China.
I mean, I don't believe in that.I believe that we need to stand
up for our rights and show that we are willing to assert our
rights. And that's through consistency
of action, actually demonstrating it through Action
Day and. Day.
Yes. Yes.
(10:13):
Talk a bit more about that, thatpartnership aspect.
I mean, the, the, as you mentioned, you have one treaty
ally in the United States and that's, that's a key partnership
as it is for Australia as well and, and other countries.
I mean, there's a lot of commentary about the United
States right now. There's a lot of sense of
uncertainty and, and the mixed signals that other countries
feel they're getting from the United States.
(10:34):
How are you feeling? How's the Philippines feeling
about the the US relationship right now?
You know, I view it long term. We've been allies for a long
time. If you analyse the history of
Philippine US alliance, it has its ups and down oscillation of
the alliance and but always it goes back to the default, which
(10:59):
is the strength of the alliance.Our lowest point was in fact
when we terminated the military bases agreement and we're
nowhere like that, like that. We see the strength of the
alliance even with the new US administration so far, the
(11:23):
support of the Philippines and the commitment as stated by no
less than the Secretary of Defence and the Secretary of
State, the ironclad commitment to the alliance.
And so you have observed the themilitary assistance.
There was no pause in military assistance to the Philippines.
(11:46):
We have recently concluded with Faf Balikatan exercise continued
to demonstrate the cohesiveness of the ice.
In fact, new weapon systems wereintroduced during that exercise
to demonstrate the cohesiveness of the airlines and the
willingness to to help each other.
(12:07):
So, so far, I think the allianceremains to be cohesive.
It remains to be an important piece of our deterrence.
You can just imagine, had we no alliance with the US, what, what
else could the China, what else could China have done if there
(12:28):
was no alliance with you? Sure.
Yeah. And I must say Secretary
Hegseth's speech at Shangri La the, the, the section on the
Indo Pacific, which was actuallythe the bulk of it once there
were some some other remarks at the early on.
But I mean the, the, the, the essence of that speech about the
Indo Pacific was actually very strong.
It was a very strong statement of commitment to, to
(12:49):
partnerships in the Indo Pacificand to allies.
And obviously there are they, they brought up increased
defence investment spending fromallies, which is, which is not
surprising. But, but overall, I, I don't
know if you if you got a chance to, to, to hear the speech or to
read it, but it was actually very strong.
Yeah, it was a very, very strongspeech all.
(13:11):
Right, let's talk. Well, actually before we get on
to Australia, I am just interested in your view of a, a
broader network of, of Asian partnerships or even security
treaty allies. Eli Ratner, former senior
defence official in the the Biden administration, wrote a
piece in about a week ago in Foreign Affairs magazine calling
(13:35):
for an Asian security pact. He mentioned the current squad
countries, the Australia, Japan,the Philippines, United States
is the obvious starting point for that, that broader pact with
potentially other other countries joining down the
track. What did you make of that and
how do you think it will be received in the Philippines?
You know, personally I agree with that multilateral alliance.
(14:00):
Now we have bilateral alliances countries you mentioned we all
have bilateral alliances with the US.
The squad you mentioned, we're training together, we're we're
talking to each other and probably later on then that can
graduate into a more firmer multilateral arrangement.
And I guess other countries are welcome as well to join that.
(14:26):
After all, we're common in the the belief that the rules based
international order needs to be defended.
And that is a reason for us to to get together and defend
international law, the rules based international order which
(14:48):
is now being threatened. So and the the presence of that
threat alone perhaps is motivation for us to to get
together and have a more firmer commitment to to defending
against that. Yeah, I, I imagine that the, you
know, those, those firmer relationships, multilateral
(15:11):
relationships will come togetherover time with, you know,
increasing cooperation between different countries.
Do you feel as if that increasing cooperation is
progressing at a satisfactory pace at the moment?
I I believe so. If you observe the last
Balikatan exercise, we saw the presence of all these countries
(15:31):
that you mentioned. We hope we get more comfortable
with each other. We, we are able to have what you
know, we have mutual interest tobegin with.
We have common concerns then andin fact shared values and so
(15:52):
that that that all of that bindsus together.
So, and we hope as we are able to, to get together more often,
we are able to realise the need to to come with a come up with a
more firmer commitment to each other.
(16:13):
What about bilaterally between the Philippines and Australia
now? How do you assess the strength
of the relationship at the moment?
Are there things you'd like to see more of?
And what do you think that the two countries can do more of
together in the near term? Yeah, we've been strategic
partners for for a while alreadyand we have so far with
(16:36):
Australia the status of visitingforces agreement and we're we're
able to train together. We have defence cooperations in
areas, but again, going back to the Treaty alliance that we
mentioned earlier, perhaps in the future we we can have a more
(16:58):
firmer relationship, not necessarily bilateral only, but
as you said multilaterally that can be something we can look
forward to. But having said that, we, we
have been talking about militaryrelationship, but you know, in
(17:18):
fact military is not even sustainable if we, our economy
is not strong enough. And so we need to also perhaps
delve into that. It's not enough that we have a
military to military relationship, but we also have
to expand to economic, the economic realm and maybe all
(17:44):
other areas that we that we needto examine.
We mentioned about information, maybe getting together to to
have a common narrative. You know, China employs not just
(18:05):
military, employs information also economic, social, political
or all instruments of national power.
In fact, when we talk about classic China's strategic
thinking, Suichu, Mao, Cha Tung and now what we call hybrid
(18:27):
warfare, unrestricted warfare, grey zone, employing all means
other than military. So we need to cooperate in that
broad spectrum if we are to facethe threat that is obtaining
right now. That that's a really fantastic
point. I mean, the economic security, I
mean, obviously we can, we can trade, you know, trade, trade is
(18:49):
good, good thing between our twocountries, but also economic
security. How do we actually work together
to make sure that we can't be sort of coerced or put under
pressure by other actors, notably China?
Very important point. I suppose I, I'd welcome any
thoughts you have on, on how we might develop those sorts of
ideas, but in the information space as well.
(19:09):
What, what sort of impact do yousee in the Philippines at the
moment from those from the Chinese narratives?
I mean, do you, do you see them sort of interfering in in
Philippines politics on a regular basis to talk us through
that? Yes, you will observe China's
influence operation on a daily basis, not just information, but
(19:33):
also trying to influence our people, different sectors of
society to advance Chinese narrative, Chinese interests.
And some of us don't realise that, but we need to fight back.
(19:54):
I've been saying that even as wespeak.
China's waging war against us inthe information realm, at least
in the battle of narratives in keeping with.
Classic Chinese strategic thinking of employing all means.
But are we fighting back enough as allies?
(20:15):
Are we coordinating as allies toaddress all of those influence
operations? The disinformation going on,
cyber, we're so focused on military.
That's what I've been saying, but we need to also examine all
of this and I guess that's the way forward for us, as you are
(20:36):
asking what else we can do. So perhaps not just military
cooperation, more cooperation inthose areas, as you mentioned, a
lot of things we can do economically.
Yeah, to mention defence industries.
Yes, yeah, yeah. What, what's the common
narrative that you you see that we should be promoting Australia
(20:57):
and and the Philippines? Commonality as far as.
The well, the yeah, the narrative, the information
narrative, I suppose. I mean, it's it's, it's about
promoting a rules based order. Space order international law,
you know, adherence to unclose adherence to the the arbitration
(21:21):
decision which China is in fact ignoring claiming, for instance,
the entire South China Sea on onhistorical basis on different
basis. But we have to assert the
narrative of international law, of own clause of the arbitral
(21:48):
award, and that each country hasthe right to assert its own
sovereignty and sovereign rightswithout being bullied.
I mean, getting your way throughforce, that's not an acceptable
(22:10):
norm in international relations.And we need to to stand up
collectively as in fact, not just as allies, as a community
of nation. Sure.
I mean, since you touched on defence industry as well, I'm
just interested if if you have any particular views on that.
I'm, I'm aware that the Philippines has been putting a
(22:31):
lot of effort into its, I suppose, into developing its
economy at the, at the sort of technology end, I mean, building
data centres, AI preparedness, these sorts of things.
It's, it's, it's big on the Philippines agenda right now,
which is fantastic. I mean, do you see opportunities
for for sort of defence industryand technology cooperation?
Yes, a lot of areas we can do asyou mentioned technology
(22:54):
cooperation and also our we havecommon economic strengths like
in the minerals and in natural resources that we can cooperate
(23:16):
exploitation of natural resources and minerals.
Australia is very strong in thisstrategic minerals.
And also in fact, agriculture is1 area I should mention food
(23:36):
security. It's an important area to to
develop a resilience not just our countries, but our friends
and allies as well all. Right, well, lots to think about
and and lots to do. All right, General Batista,
thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
(23:57):
Well, thank you for having me here.
It's really a pleasure to exchange views about such an
important topic. Thanks.
That's all we have time for thisweek on STOP THE World.
Thanks for listening.
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