May 27, 2024 • 17 mins
The other day, Heartland Institute Editorial Director Chris Talgo, who is also a research fellow at our Socialism Research Center, was a guest on the nationally syndicated Pelle Neroth Taylor Show. Pelle apparently got notice of a paper Chris and Heartland's Justin Haskins wrote back in 2019 titled "Debunking the Scandinavian Socialism Myth: An Evaluation of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden.
Chris was on Pelle's program to talk about that paper. It's a fascinating conversation. Have a listen. And read the paper that got the attention of Pelle Neroth Taylor here: https://heartland.org/publications/policy-brief-debunking-the-scandinavian-socialism-myth-an-evaluation-of-denmark-norway-and-sweden/
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Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:00):
This is the Heartland Daily Podcast. The other day,
Heartland Institute editorialdirector, Chris Talgo, who is
also a research fellow at ourSocialism Research Center, was a
guest on the nationallysyndicated Pele Naroth Taylor
show. Pele apparently got noticeof a paper Chris and Heartland's
(00:23):
Justin Haskins wrote back in2019 titled Debunking the
Scandinavian Socialism Myth, anEvaluation of Denmark, Norway,
and Sweden. Chris was on Pele'sprogram to talk about that
paper. It's a fascinatingconversation.
Have a listen.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (00:43):
Well, for nearly a 100 years, Scandinavia
has been a model for Americanprogressives. The Franklin D.
Roosevelt looked to America.There's a book called Sweden the
Middle Way that was requiredreading for the reservation, a
country that had the equality ofthe socialist countries and the
wealth generating capacity ofthe capitalist states. That was
(01:05):
the theme.
Then in the 19 fifties sixtiesseventies, it was a favorite
with the Kennedy clan and oftenoften appealed to and talked
about. And if in American filmyou drove a Volvo, that sent a
signal to to the viewer that youwere kind of American professor,
East Coast type, you know, andlooked up to Scandinavia.
Finally, we have, the in the2000, still the the the
(01:33):
progressive leaders of theAmerican Democratic Party today
are still talking aboutScandinavia. And they're talking
about Scandinavia in a socialistcontext saying, well, socialism
works. Look at this peninsula inthe North of Europe.
Well, Khris Thalgo doesn't thinkso, and he's written a pamphlet.
He's worked for the HeartlandInstitute, taught US history and
American government for 5 yearsin South Carolina. And, his
(01:54):
paper is called Dean BarkingKing, the Scandinavian Socialist
Myth and Evaluation of Denmark,Norway, and Sweden. Welcome to
the show, Chris.
Chris Talgo (02:01):
Hey. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (02:04):
So, what is your thesis that, Scandinavia is
not the socialist paradise thatthe democratic left in the US
seems to think?
Chris Talgo (02:15):
The thesis is actually pretty straightforward.
These are not socialist nations,and, most of their leaders have
said so on multiple occasions.There's there's this myth that
has existed for, like you said,the past 20 years or so that the
Scandinavian nations, Norway,Sweden, and the rest are these
socialist, utopias when that iscompletely not the case. So what
(02:38):
we did was a couple of yearsago, especially when, Bernie
Sanders and AOC, were really,trying to say, hey, the United
States should follow this model.We said, well, we're gonna do
some, some in-depth researchinto what these countries are
actually like.
And after we did that, we foundthat on, very many benchmarks,
on on, you know, freedom of, theeconomy, regulation, free trade,
(03:02):
all this kind of stuff. TheScandinavian countries actually
are more capitalist, more freemarket than the United States is
currently. And I know thatthat's just, you know, kinda
difficult to understand. Butreally what this, you know, gets
down to is, almost all thesenations have a flat income tax.
They do not have a progressiveincome tax.
(03:24):
They have extremely lowregulations, especially for
entrepreneurship. So it's veryeasy to create a business in
most of these countries. And, Iwould say this this notion that,
they have this giant socialsafety net, might have been
true, like you said, in thesixties seventies, post World
War 2, but, what happened wasand I think Britain was a great
(03:47):
example of this. They said thisdoesn't work. We cannot keep
doing this.
So what did they do? They wentin the opposite direction.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (03:55):
Well, I'm actually based in Sweden, and
some of what you say is right,but some of it I disagree with.
I mean, the flat there's no flattax for I mean, I don't know.
I've I can't tell you that thereare people who have written
papers for and against theScandinavian model. I mean, it
was never socialist, but it wassocial democrat. I mean, there
were graded tax rates.
Okay? But it is very easy tostart a company. And the tax
(04:17):
regime is very favorable tocorporations, but it is
difficult to start up a, aprivate company. It doesn't
favor private capitalistentrepreneurs. It's it's better.
It's good for big business andand established That's why you
see very few restaurants in thetowns. Very difficult for
immigrants starting up apizzeria, for instance. So they
take they're snared in withtaxes and so on. And the taxes
(04:40):
for private individuals is veryhigh. But, I mean, there was
always this principle of socialdemocracy that you don't need to
own the cow to to to get themilk.
You know? So the industry wasalways in private hands. There's
never any collectivization ofprivate property. So it never
was socialist, but it was socialdemocrat, and that's different.
You know?
Absolutely. Yeah. So people andand Americans say, oh, it's
(05:01):
communist. It's socialist, andthey go too far by by this
nomenclature. It was nothinglike the Soviet Union ever.
But then they make a sort of,then the the then they skate
over it by saying, well, it's,like, actually a libertarian
paradise, which isn't either.You know? So, I mean, what are
your thoughts on that? Becauseit still it still is a different
kind of society than the US forbetter or for worse, but it's
(05:23):
it's better on some metrics andworse on other metrics. Wouldn't
you agree?
Chris Talgo (05:28):
I completely agree, and you you raise a very good
point. So so everyone in thosecountries, generally speaking,
pays a high income tax. That isabsolutely guaranteed for sure.
But one of the big differences,those countries are very small.
They have very homogeneouspopulations.
The people are coming from acommon culture. It's very
different than the United Stateswhere we're this giant country
(05:48):
with 350,000,000 plus peoplefrom a vast array of different
backgrounds with vast differentcultures. So maybe that would
work in Norway or Sweden whereeveryone, I think, you know, in
my, family's from Norway. And,actually, my brother's dad lives
there currently. And part of thereason that he chose to do that
was because he wanted to live ina place where it's like
everyone, kinda says, hey.
(06:10):
We're all gonna work, you know,hard. We're all gonna pay for
certain things, but it's notgonna be nearly as progressive
in terms of the rich are gonnapay 80% and the poor are gonna
actually get a bunch of stuff inreturn. They also, you know,
when we did our report, didn'thave nearly the social welfare
state that the United States,you know, currently has in place
where half the populationdoesn't pay any income taxes,
(06:33):
doesn't work, and actually justgets a bunch of free stuff from
the government. So, in in in interms of saying that, it is a
free market, you know, utopia,of course not. It's not.
Mhmm. But the at the at theother end of the token, I think
that it's very unfair to saythat these are, like you said,
communist, socialist, you know,governments where everything's
(06:55):
nationalized because that isjust simply not the case.
Announcer (06:59):
Before we get to the rest of this podcast, I wanted
to let you know about 2fantastic live podcasts
Heartland produces every week.We'd love for you to join us
every Thursday at 1 PM EST, noonCST, live for our flagship in
the tank podcast. You can watchon the stopping socialism TV
channel on YouTube where you canparticipate in the show in the
(07:20):
chat with other fans and alsoask questions that we'll address
on the air and put up on thescreen. And every Friday, also
at 1 PM EST and noon CST, youcan go to Heartland's main
YouTube channel. Just search forthe Heartland Institute on
YouTube for the new ClimateRealism Show.
Heartland's climate team ofAnthony Watts, Sterling Burnett,
and Linnea Lukin cover the crazyclimate news of the week, debunk
(07:42):
mainstream media myths about theso called climate crisis, dig
into energy policy, and muchmore. The show often features
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energy policy experts anywherein the world. There is no show
like it, so become regular liveviewers of both of these
programs if you are interestedin smart, lively, fun, and
(08:03):
interactive conversations. Wehope to see you there every
Thursday Friday afternoons at 1PM EST and noon CST at the
stopping socialism TV and theHeartland Institute channels on
YouTube. Oh, yeah.
We're also on Rumble. See youthere.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (08:19):
The right wing in America gets all these
things completely wrong. I mean,they and and you that's why I
kind of ban banished the wordcommunist from my from my shows
because it doesn't it's notrevelatory. I don't mind
criticizing Scandinavia. Goahead. You know?
That's fine. And I'm quitecritical of it myself, but
you've gotta get use the righttitle. And then if you jump onto
this anti communist bandwagon,Because these are, after all,
(08:41):
some of the most successfulsocieties in earth on earth. And
I speak as somebody who's alwaysbeen railing against Scandinavia
in a way, kind of kickingagainst. But I found, well,
objectively I mean, if you lookat the 5 happiest societies in
the world according to the GoodLife Index, they're all in
Scandinavia, so they must bedoing something right.
But as you said, there were oncesome ingenious societies and
(09:02):
people prepared to pay for thatthrough their high taxes, but
now not because of the largenumber of migrants who I think
were imported partly because thethe right wing in Sweden, the
business class, wanted tosabotage the welfare state
because they thought, well, theSwedes are not gonna want to pay
their high taxes anymore. Sowe'll because they didn't feel
any solidarity with themigrants. In some extent,
(09:24):
they're succeeding. But, anyway,I mean, do you do you see any
virtue in in a Scandinaviamodel? I mean, I just looked at
the OECD, the and they said,well, America is better on
income tax income, housing, andjobs.
So traditional sort of moreopportunity in America, and we
kind of all know that. ButScandinavia is better on
(09:46):
environmental soft issues likeeducation, quality of life,
holidays, and things like that.So isn't there something to be
said for that that Scandinavianapproach as well?
Chris Talgo (09:55):
Oh, absolutely. It's but it but it's a very
different mentality. In theUnited States, you know, it is
the land of opportunity. It'sthe land of freedom, and you can
come here and if you work hard,generally speaking, you can you
can, you know, work your way upthe income ladder. I think the
European countries in generalare are different.
You know, they're coming from avery different background for
100 of years. They had kings.They had, you know, you know,
(10:16):
hierarchy and aristocracy ofsorts. So it's it's it's
fundamentally different. Butwhat I think the Scandinavian
countries have done in, youknow, recent years, especially
post World War 2 is say, hey,wait a second.
We want we do wanna createsociety in which everyone's, you
know, basics are taken care of,whether that's, you know,
education, healthcare, and thatkind of stuff. But they also is
Norway in particular, has vastnatural resources. You know,
(10:38):
they sell lots of natural gas,they sell lots of oil. So, you
know, unlike the United States,which is saying, Hey, wait a
second. We want to stop,producing, fossil fuels because
it's terrible for the world.
Norway and some of those othercountries are actually saying,
hey, this is something that wewant to make money off of. And
in Norway, they make lots money,and they actually give that in
the form of a rebate check backto the, Norwegians just like
(10:59):
they do in Alaska. So I think,you know, you know, it it it's
not an apples to applescomparison at all.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (11:05):
No. No. Well, your point is you can't
just import a model to theUnited States, which, as you
said, is much bigger. Although,interestingly, I saw somewhere.
I read a really good interestingpaper on on the states in the
United States that have thehighest, biggest welfare state.
They're the most white states.Why? Because back in in when,
you know, when when your yourstate sort of culture was
(11:27):
formed, people the whites werewilling to pay taxes for people
they felt affinity with. So inthe southern states, there
wasn't that kind of affinity. SoVermont is like the most
Scandinavian of American states,but it's also one of the most
homogeneous.
Chris Talgo (11:43):
That is
Pelle Neroth Taylor (11:44):
sort of
Chris Talgo (11:44):
such a great point. Yeah. That is such a great point
is that there are little pocketsof, you know, Scandinavian, I'd
say, like, the culturementality, you know, here in the
United States, but they are fewand far between. And they they
do seem to work on a very smallbasis. Like Vermont, you know?
Yeah. That that is a goodexample. The people of Vermont
have a common culture. It isvery homogeneous, just like you
(12:06):
said. They, you know, they theyhave, you know, come to some
sort of agreement that, hey,this is the society we wanna
create in our little state, inour little, like, niche of
America.
But to say that that wouldtranslate to to California and
Texas and New York and Illinoisis just, you know, absurd.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (12:24):
What and similarly, I mean, the
Scandinavians are I I think thatwhen you import because we're
under huge influence from theUnited States and a lot of
America I mean, I'm a greatadmirer of the United States,
but it's sometimes, it's flawedto try and import a solution
that works for one countrywithout knowing all the sort of
(12:45):
hidden levers and cogs that makeanother society work because
you're importing something, asort of partial model. And what
makes your society work? Well,you don't might not actually,
it's the unspoken rules of yoursociety. And if you import a
foreign model at your peril andI'm not sure that the import
importation of the Americanmodel has made the Scandinavian
(13:06):
better. At least I think it's apoint of discussion.
I think there's some ideologueswho want to do that or have
wanted to do that, but I'm notsure. I mean, I'm not competent
to really have that discussion,but I think there there are
people on both sides ofdiscussion who could have a
really interesting discussionabout it. But, what, so you're
(13:26):
you're you're hoping or you youyour your targets are this sort
of, Bernie Sanders of this worldand all his supporters, I guess.
Because what were they what werethey talking up? What were what
were they trying to spell theAmerican public?
Chris Talgo (13:41):
So for the past 5 years or so, you know, Alicia
Ocasio Cortez and, BernieSanders and, you know, what what
what they call the squad has,you know, gone all over American
mainstream media and said, hey.You know, the Scandinavian
countries have it right. TheAmerican you know, the United
States of America has it totallywrong, and we should copy
exactly what they are doing. Sowhat they're trying to do is
(14:02):
they're trying to not only,like, rewrite history, but
they're also trying to say, hey.This model that you said works
in a very small part of theworld under very unique
circumstances, let's justautomatically apply that to the
United States of America.
And I think that, you know, werealize the folly of that,
especially in the early 2000when the United States said,
(14:23):
hey. We're gonna go into theMiddle East, and we're just
gonna make them like us. Thatdoesn't work. It doesn't happen.
You can't overnight, you know,transform a society.
That takes decades. It takescenturies. It takes a long time.
It takes so the the the audacityof them to say, hey. We're just
gonna look at what they're doingover in Scandinavia and just
apply that here, andeverything's gonna be hunky
dory.
(14:44):
To me, it's just, you know, thethe the height of, you know,
ludicrousness.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (14:49):
Yeah. I think that we certainly so we
certainly agree on that thatit's difficult, and and
politicians can't just pull in acouple of reforms. I mean, let's
say that the British aredifferent from the from the
Americans even though they sharethe same language, and it's been
difficult to impose, I don'tknow, American models. You've
gotta do you've gotta know allthe factors that are at play,
(15:10):
all the things that make Americasuccess and factor in all of
those and not just the headlineaspect of US culture or
Scandinavian culture, whatever.But you've got to realize that,
I said, there might be a lot ofhidden factors that contribute
to success.
And if you don't include thosealso in your calculation, then
you won't have a successfulreform. But it's very
interesting that you'recomparing Iraq and and spreading
(15:33):
democracy to importing as we asit were other countries' models.
And I think I guess I mean, allall countries' politics try to
use other nations' models totheir own. It's a sort of, and I
guess the left I guess no one isthat in well informed about
Scandinavia. So you can kind ofpaint your utopia onto
Scandinavia, and no one knowsthe better.
(15:53):
So you could say, well, that'swhat it's like, and there's
nobody nobody's who's gonna tellyou who's wrong. So I think what
you're doing is incrediblyuseful. You've you've you've
carried out an incredibly usefultask, really. What's the
feedback been? I mean, who whohow's it been taken in, this
this paper?
I guess a lot of people saying,yeah. I told you so.
Chris Talgo (16:13):
I'd say, I'll I'll yeah. You know, it came out a
couple years ago, and it cameout, you know, at the height of
the, the Bernie Sanders, youknow Right. You know, you know,
fur. And, really, what what wesaw was we saw, a lot of, you
know, alternative media outlets,not the mainstream media, but,
you know, alternative mediaoutlets, say thank you very much
(16:35):
for doing this, and we wantedto, like, get this out in the
atmosphere. And we've also had,you know, a bunch of state
legislators say thank you fordoing this.
And, you know, the we we we havea, entire, center devoted to,
socialism research. And, youknow, one of the things that
we're trying to do is we'retrying to just make sure that
(16:55):
the American people know Mhmm.The true side of socialism, the
sorted history of socialism.Florida just has me.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (17:04):
Chris Talgo, certainly. And I I
recommend people read the theBlack Book of Communism for know
how more more people were killedby communism, by Nazism, and
it's a it's a big topic andincredibly interesting one.
Well, Chris, thanks for sortingout and and, and killing off,
myths for us. We love we love tokill off myths on this show.
This is the Heartland Daily Podcast. The other day,
Heartland Institute editorialdirector, Chris Talgo, who is
also a research fellow at ourSocialism Research Center, was a
guest on the nationallysyndicated Pele Naroth Taylor
show. Pele apparently got noticeof a paper Chris and Heartland's
(00:23):
Justin Haskins wrote back in2019 titled Debunking the
Scandinavian Socialism Myth, anEvaluation of Denmark, Norway,
and Sweden. Chris was on Pele'sprogram to talk about that
paper. It's a fascinatingconversation.
Have a listen.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (00:43):
Well, for nearly a 100 years, Scandinavia
has been a model for Americanprogressives. The Franklin D.
Roosevelt looked to America.There's a book called Sweden the
Middle Way that was requiredreading for the reservation, a
country that had the equality ofthe socialist countries and the
wealth generating capacity ofthe capitalist states. That was
(01:05):
the theme.
Then in the 19 fifties sixtiesseventies, it was a favorite
with the Kennedy clan and oftenoften appealed to and talked
about. And if in American filmyou drove a Volvo, that sent a
signal to to the viewer that youwere kind of American professor,
East Coast type, you know, andlooked up to Scandinavia.
Finally, we have, the in the2000, still the the the
(01:33):
progressive leaders of theAmerican Democratic Party today
are still talking aboutScandinavia. And they're talking
about Scandinavia in a socialistcontext saying, well, socialism
works. Look at this peninsula inthe North of Europe.
Well, Khris Thalgo doesn't thinkso, and he's written a pamphlet.
He's worked for the HeartlandInstitute, taught US history and
American government for 5 yearsin South Carolina. And, his
(01:54):
paper is called Dean BarkingKing, the Scandinavian Socialist
Myth and Evaluation of Denmark,Norway, and Sweden. Welcome to
the show, Chris.
Chris Talgo (02:01):
Hey. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (02:04):
So, what is your thesis that, Scandinavia is
not the socialist paradise thatthe democratic left in the US
seems to think?
Chris Talgo (02:15):
The thesis is actually pretty straightforward.
These are not socialist nations,and, most of their leaders have
said so on multiple occasions.There's there's this myth that
has existed for, like you said,the past 20 years or so that the
Scandinavian nations, Norway,Sweden, and the rest are these
socialist, utopias when that iscompletely not the case. So what
(02:38):
we did was a couple of yearsago, especially when, Bernie
Sanders and AOC, were really,trying to say, hey, the United
States should follow this model.We said, well, we're gonna do
some, some in-depth researchinto what these countries are
actually like.
And after we did that, we foundthat on, very many benchmarks,
on on, you know, freedom of, theeconomy, regulation, free trade,
(03:02):
all this kind of stuff. TheScandinavian countries actually
are more capitalist, more freemarket than the United States is
currently. And I know thatthat's just, you know, kinda
difficult to understand. Butreally what this, you know, gets
down to is, almost all thesenations have a flat income tax.
They do not have a progressiveincome tax.
(03:24):
They have extremely lowregulations, especially for
entrepreneurship. So it's veryeasy to create a business in
most of these countries. And, Iwould say this this notion that,
they have this giant socialsafety net, might have been
true, like you said, in thesixties seventies, post World
War 2, but, what happened wasand I think Britain was a great
(03:47):
example of this. They said thisdoesn't work. We cannot keep
doing this.
So what did they do? They wentin the opposite direction.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (03:55):
Well, I'm actually based in Sweden, and
some of what you say is right,but some of it I disagree with.
I mean, the flat there's no flattax for I mean, I don't know.
I've I can't tell you that thereare people who have written
papers for and against theScandinavian model. I mean, it
was never socialist, but it wassocial democrat. I mean, there
were graded tax rates.
Okay? But it is very easy tostart a company. And the tax
(04:17):
regime is very favorable tocorporations, but it is
difficult to start up a, aprivate company. It doesn't
favor private capitalistentrepreneurs. It's it's better.
It's good for big business andand established That's why you
see very few restaurants in thetowns. Very difficult for
immigrants starting up apizzeria, for instance. So they
take they're snared in withtaxes and so on. And the taxes
(04:40):
for private individuals is veryhigh. But, I mean, there was
always this principle of socialdemocracy that you don't need to
own the cow to to to get themilk.
You know? So the industry wasalways in private hands. There's
never any collectivization ofprivate property. So it never
was socialist, but it was socialdemocrat, and that's different.
You know?
Absolutely. Yeah. So people andand Americans say, oh, it's
(05:01):
communist. It's socialist, andthey go too far by by this
nomenclature. It was nothinglike the Soviet Union ever.
But then they make a sort of,then the the then they skate
over it by saying, well, it's,like, actually a libertarian
paradise, which isn't either.You know? So, I mean, what are
your thoughts on that? Becauseit still it still is a different
kind of society than the US forbetter or for worse, but it's
(05:23):
it's better on some metrics andworse on other metrics. Wouldn't
you agree?
Chris Talgo (05:28):
I completely agree, and you you raise a very good
point. So so everyone in thosecountries, generally speaking,
pays a high income tax. That isabsolutely guaranteed for sure.
But one of the big differences,those countries are very small.
They have very homogeneouspopulations.
The people are coming from acommon culture. It's very
different than the United Stateswhere we're this giant country
(05:48):
with 350,000,000 plus peoplefrom a vast array of different
backgrounds with vast differentcultures. So maybe that would
work in Norway or Sweden whereeveryone, I think, you know, in
my, family's from Norway. And,actually, my brother's dad lives
there currently. And part of thereason that he chose to do that
was because he wanted to live ina place where it's like
everyone, kinda says, hey.
(06:10):
We're all gonna work, you know,hard. We're all gonna pay for
certain things, but it's notgonna be nearly as progressive
in terms of the rich are gonnapay 80% and the poor are gonna
actually get a bunch of stuff inreturn. They also, you know,
when we did our report, didn'thave nearly the social welfare
state that the United States,you know, currently has in place
where half the populationdoesn't pay any income taxes,
(06:33):
doesn't work, and actually justgets a bunch of free stuff from
the government. So, in in in interms of saying that, it is a
free market, you know, utopia,of course not. It's not.
Mhmm. But the at the at theother end of the token, I think
that it's very unfair to saythat these are, like you said,
communist, socialist, you know,governments where everything's
(06:55):
nationalized because that isjust simply not the case.
Announcer (06:59):
Before we get to the rest of this podcast, I wanted
to let you know about 2fantastic live podcasts
Heartland produces every week.We'd love for you to join us
every Thursday at 1 PM EST, noonCST, live for our flagship in
the tank podcast. You can watchon the stopping socialism TV
channel on YouTube where you canparticipate in the show in the
(07:20):
chat with other fans and alsoask questions that we'll address
on the air and put up on thescreen. And every Friday, also
at 1 PM EST and noon CST, youcan go to Heartland's main
YouTube channel. Just search forthe Heartland Institute on
YouTube for the new ClimateRealism Show.
Heartland's climate team ofAnthony Watts, Sterling Burnett,
and Linnea Lukin cover the crazyclimate news of the week, debunk
(07:42):
mainstream media myths about theso called climate crisis, dig
into energy policy, and muchmore. The show often features
guests that include some of theleading climate scientists and
energy policy experts anywherein the world. There is no show
like it, so become regular liveviewers of both of these
programs if you are interestedin smart, lively, fun, and
(08:03):
interactive conversations. Wehope to see you there every
Thursday Friday afternoons at 1PM EST and noon CST at the
stopping socialism TV and theHeartland Institute channels on
YouTube. Oh, yeah.
We're also on Rumble. See youthere.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (08:19):
The right wing in America gets all these
things completely wrong. I mean,they and and you that's why I
kind of ban banished the wordcommunist from my from my shows
because it doesn't it's notrevelatory. I don't mind
criticizing Scandinavia. Goahead. You know?
That's fine. And I'm quitecritical of it myself, but
you've gotta get use the righttitle. And then if you jump onto
this anti communist bandwagon,Because these are, after all,
(08:41):
some of the most successfulsocieties in earth on earth. And
I speak as somebody who's alwaysbeen railing against Scandinavia
in a way, kind of kickingagainst. But I found, well,
objectively I mean, if you lookat the 5 happiest societies in
the world according to the GoodLife Index, they're all in
Scandinavia, so they must bedoing something right.
But as you said, there were oncesome ingenious societies and
(09:02):
people prepared to pay for thatthrough their high taxes, but
now not because of the largenumber of migrants who I think
were imported partly because thethe right wing in Sweden, the
business class, wanted tosabotage the welfare state
because they thought, well, theSwedes are not gonna want to pay
their high taxes anymore. Sowe'll because they didn't feel
any solidarity with themigrants. In some extent,
(09:24):
they're succeeding. But, anyway,I mean, do you do you see any
virtue in in a Scandinaviamodel? I mean, I just looked at
the OECD, the and they said,well, America is better on
income tax income, housing, andjobs.
So traditional sort of moreopportunity in America, and we
kind of all know that. ButScandinavia is better on
(09:46):
environmental soft issues likeeducation, quality of life,
holidays, and things like that.So isn't there something to be
said for that that Scandinavianapproach as well?
Chris Talgo (09:55):
Oh, absolutely. It's but it but it's a very
different mentality. In theUnited States, you know, it is
the land of opportunity. It'sthe land of freedom, and you can
come here and if you work hard,generally speaking, you can you
can, you know, work your way upthe income ladder. I think the
European countries in generalare are different.
You know, they're coming from avery different background for
100 of years. They had kings.They had, you know, you know,
(10:16):
hierarchy and aristocracy ofsorts. So it's it's it's
fundamentally different. Butwhat I think the Scandinavian
countries have done in, youknow, recent years, especially
post World War 2 is say, hey,wait a second.
We want we do wanna createsociety in which everyone's, you
know, basics are taken care of,whether that's, you know,
education, healthcare, and thatkind of stuff. But they also is
Norway in particular, has vastnatural resources. You know,
(10:38):
they sell lots of natural gas,they sell lots of oil. So, you
know, unlike the United States,which is saying, Hey, wait a
second. We want to stop,producing, fossil fuels because
it's terrible for the world.
Norway and some of those othercountries are actually saying,
hey, this is something that wewant to make money off of. And
in Norway, they make lots money,and they actually give that in
the form of a rebate check backto the, Norwegians just like
(10:59):
they do in Alaska. So I think,you know, you know, it it it's
not an apples to applescomparison at all.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (11:05):
No. No. Well, your point is you can't
just import a model to theUnited States, which, as you
said, is much bigger. Although,interestingly, I saw somewhere.
I read a really good interestingpaper on on the states in the
United States that have thehighest, biggest welfare state.
They're the most white states.Why? Because back in in when,
you know, when when your yourstate sort of culture was
(11:27):
formed, people the whites werewilling to pay taxes for people
they felt affinity with. So inthe southern states, there
wasn't that kind of affinity. SoVermont is like the most
Scandinavian of American states,but it's also one of the most
homogeneous.
Chris Talgo (11:43):
That is
Pelle Neroth Taylor (11:44):
sort of
Chris Talgo (11:44):
such a great point. Yeah. That is such a great point
is that there are little pocketsof, you know, Scandinavian, I'd
say, like, the culturementality, you know, here in the
United States, but they are fewand far between. And they they
do seem to work on a very smallbasis. Like Vermont, you know?
Yeah. That that is a goodexample. The people of Vermont
have a common culture. It isvery homogeneous, just like you
(12:06):
said. They, you know, they theyhave, you know, come to some
sort of agreement that, hey,this is the society we wanna
create in our little state, inour little, like, niche of
America.
But to say that that wouldtranslate to to California and
Texas and New York and Illinoisis just, you know, absurd.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (12:24):
What and similarly, I mean, the
Scandinavians are I I think thatwhen you import because we're
under huge influence from theUnited States and a lot of
America I mean, I'm a greatadmirer of the United States,
but it's sometimes, it's flawedto try and import a solution
that works for one countrywithout knowing all the sort of
(12:45):
hidden levers and cogs that makeanother society work because
you're importing something, asort of partial model. And what
makes your society work? Well,you don't might not actually,
it's the unspoken rules of yoursociety. And if you import a
foreign model at your peril andI'm not sure that the import
importation of the Americanmodel has made the Scandinavian
(13:06):
better. At least I think it's apoint of discussion.
I think there's some ideologueswho want to do that or have
wanted to do that, but I'm notsure. I mean, I'm not competent
to really have that discussion,but I think there there are
people on both sides ofdiscussion who could have a
really interesting discussionabout it. But, what, so you're
(13:26):
you're you're hoping or you youyour your targets are this sort
of, Bernie Sanders of this worldand all his supporters, I guess.
Because what were they what werethey talking up? What were what
were they trying to spell theAmerican public?
Chris Talgo (13:41):
So for the past 5 years or so, you know, Alicia
Ocasio Cortez and, BernieSanders and, you know, what what
what they call the squad has,you know, gone all over American
mainstream media and said, hey.You know, the Scandinavian
countries have it right. TheAmerican you know, the United
States of America has it totallywrong, and we should copy
exactly what they are doing. Sowhat they're trying to do is
(14:02):
they're trying to not only,like, rewrite history, but
they're also trying to say, hey.This model that you said works
in a very small part of theworld under very unique
circumstances, let's justautomatically apply that to the
United States of America.
And I think that, you know, werealize the folly of that,
especially in the early 2000when the United States said,
(14:23):
hey. We're gonna go into theMiddle East, and we're just
gonna make them like us. Thatdoesn't work. It doesn't happen.
You can't overnight, you know,transform a society.
That takes decades. It takescenturies. It takes a long time.
It takes so the the the audacityof them to say, hey. We're just
gonna look at what they're doingover in Scandinavia and just
apply that here, andeverything's gonna be hunky
dory.
(14:44):
To me, it's just, you know, thethe the height of, you know,
ludicrousness.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (14:49):
Yeah. I think that we certainly so we
certainly agree on that thatit's difficult, and and
politicians can't just pull in acouple of reforms. I mean, let's
say that the British aredifferent from the from the
Americans even though they sharethe same language, and it's been
difficult to impose, I don'tknow, American models. You've
gotta do you've gotta know allthe factors that are at play,
(15:10):
all the things that make Americasuccess and factor in all of
those and not just the headlineaspect of US culture or
Scandinavian culture, whatever.But you've got to realize that,
I said, there might be a lot ofhidden factors that contribute
to success.
And if you don't include thosealso in your calculation, then
you won't have a successfulreform. But it's very
interesting that you'recomparing Iraq and and spreading
(15:33):
democracy to importing as we asit were other countries' models.
And I think I guess I mean, allall countries' politics try to
use other nations' models totheir own. It's a sort of, and I
guess the left I guess no one isthat in well informed about
Scandinavia. So you can kind ofpaint your utopia onto
Scandinavia, and no one knowsthe better.
(15:53):
So you could say, well, that'swhat it's like, and there's
nobody nobody's who's gonna tellyou who's wrong. So I think what
you're doing is incrediblyuseful. You've you've you've
carried out an incredibly usefultask, really. What's the
feedback been? I mean, who whohow's it been taken in, this
this paper?
I guess a lot of people saying,yeah. I told you so.
Chris Talgo (16:13):
I'd say, I'll I'll yeah. You know, it came out a
couple years ago, and it cameout, you know, at the height of
the, the Bernie Sanders, youknow Right. You know, you know,
fur. And, really, what what wesaw was we saw, a lot of, you
know, alternative media outlets,not the mainstream media, but,
you know, alternative mediaoutlets, say thank you very much
(16:35):
for doing this, and we wantedto, like, get this out in the
atmosphere. And we've also had,you know, a bunch of state
legislators say thank you fordoing this.
And, you know, the we we we havea, entire, center devoted to,
socialism research. And, youknow, one of the things that
we're trying to do is we'retrying to just make sure that
(16:55):
the American people know Mhmm.The true side of socialism, the
sorted history of socialism.Florida just has me.
Pelle Neroth Taylor (17:04):
Chris Talgo, certainly. And I I
recommend people read the theBlack Book of Communism for know
how more more people were killedby communism, by Nazism, and
it's a it's a big topic andincredibly interesting one.
Well, Chris, thanks for sortingout and and, and killing off,
myths for us. We love we love tokill off myths on this show.
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