November 27, 2025 • 20 mins
What is home?
Is it a place, a memory, a landscape—or a journey? In this episode, Judy Oskam explores the transformative meaning of home with Amy Denet Deal. She's the founder of 4 Kinship, Indigenous Futures Forever, and the Diné Skate Garden Project.
Amy’s story is one of remarkable courage and clarity. In her mid-50s, she left the corporate fashion world and returned to her Navajo roots. Her journey home reveals how healing and creativity intersect in powerful ways.
In this episode, Judy and Amy talk about adoption and culture. They both share an adoption connection.
Returning to Her Roots
- Amy shares her early life story of being adopted out of her Navajo community in the 1960s—before the Indian Child Welfare Act.
- Amy describes the moment she chose to “come home” in 2019. Selling everything and driving to New Mexico to reconnect with her culture.
Healing and Identity
- Amy shares about meeting her birth mother for the first time
- .The emotional work of reconnecting with family, community, and heritage.
From Fashion Executive to Indigenous Fashion Leader
- A look inside Amy’s career in corporate fashion and the ethical concerns that pushed her toward sustainable design.
- The founding of 4 Kinship, a brand rooted in Indigenous artistry and community impact.
Creating Spaces for the Next Generation
- Why skateboarding became a tool for youth empowerment, health, and suicide prevention.
- Long-term dreams of a fiber farm—possibly in Scotland—to support her daughter’s fashion future.
- The deep connection between land and clarity of purpose.
Memorable Quote
“Home to me is a feeling of calmness and clarity. Coming back to my homelands quieted the noise and helped me understand exactly why I’m here.” - Amy Denet Deal
A Reflection for You
Judy closes the episode with a question for listeners:
What does home mean to you?
Is it a place, a person, a memory—or a journey you're still traveling?
Photo by Shaun Price.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Judy Oskam (00:02):
What is home?
Is it a place you're born into,a physical space, a landscape,
or a community?
Or is home something youchoose?
A place where your spiritfinally settles in and your
purpose is clear and focused?
Well, I think maybe it's alittle bit of both, and I've
been thinking a lot about themeaning of home lately.
(00:26):
Welcome to Stories of Changeand Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam, a masscommunication professor at Texas
State University.
And on this episode, I talkwith Amy Denet Deal, the founder
of 4 Kinship.
In her mid-50s, Amy made acourageous decision to leave the
corporate fashion world andbegin a new chapter, actually
(00:49):
returning to her Native Americanroots, coming home in every
sense of the word.
The clothing designer is on amission to redefine sustainable
fashion and uplift indigenousartistry.
Each was full of history andmeaning.
(01:22):
And this conversation wasespecially meaningful to me,
too, as an adoptive mother oftwo Asian daughters.
They're also navigating theirown path to identity and
cultural connection, definingthe meaning of home.
Amy Denet Deal (01:39):
My name is Amy Denet Deal.
I'm the founder of For Kinship,the founder of Indigenous
Futures Forever, our nonprofitarm, as well as Skate Auntie for
a Dine' Skate Garden Project.
Judy Oskam (01:50):
Well, tell me about how you ended up back here.
That's a broad question, butthat's sort of your whole thing
is coming home.
Amy Denet Deal (01:57):
Full circle.
Definitely full circle.
I was adopted out in 1964 to afamily in Indiana.
So that was before the IndianChild Welfare Act.
That was in 74.
So I didn't really have anycontact with my culture until I
came back in 2019.
I had learned what I could frombooks and, you know, just
(02:20):
researching, but to actuallylive here was such an important
part of my journey.
My daughter had graduated highschool and was getting ready for
college.
So as an empty nestry, youknow, it's finally you have this
time that you can think aboutyour life.
Yeah, to think about likewhat's next.
And for me, what was next wasto explore my indigeneity and
(02:41):
really understand what thatmeant since it was so far
removed from my growing up.
Um, very limited um culturaltraining, you know, my whole
life.
So coming back home was toreally jump into that.
And um, I did that by basicallyselling everything I had in
California, hopping into a bigU-Haul van and driving to New
(03:06):
Mexico.
And uh, you know, quite naivenaively just trying to think I
would figure it out when I gothere.
Um, and then shortly afterthat, COVID-19 hit.
So, you know, there's just likea lot of strange coincidences
that brought me here at thattime when I could actually be of
service.
So my first big push into mycommunity was through knowing
(03:30):
how to raise funding and knowinghow to provide aid during a
really, really harsh time.
Judy Oskam (03:36):
Well, and that was part of your background.
Tell me about your where youwere and then your coming to a
media.
Amy Denet Deal (03:42):
Yeah, where I was is was a design executive in
the fashion industry.
Um, and at some point, I thinkwhen my daughter was maybe five
years or six years old, Idecided just to move into
consultancy because I didn'tbelieve in corporate um business
anymore.
I'd seen things that weredeeply disturbing on how that
(04:02):
production is run and thecommunity is impacted by these
large brands I was working for.
So I finally decided I was justgoing to take a different
pathway with that and be abetter mom and be a more
authentic person for my child tolook up to.
Uh, started sustainableconsulting, small batch
consulting.
Um, and that was just kind of,you know, kind of running
(04:25):
parallel to also kind ofplanning this move back to my
homelands.
Judy Oskam (04:30):
Well, and finding out more about your past and
your history.
Amy Denet Deal (04:33):
Yeah.
unknown (04:34):
Yeah.
Amy Denet Deal (04:34):
So yeah, all of that kind of came together in
2019 when I did move out here.
And 2020 and 2021 spent most ofmy time doing mutual aid work,
uh, raising a lot of funds, um,getting a lot of things from
point A to point B,distribution, working with a lot
of other relatives committed toour community.
(04:54):
So I met a really great groupof people to learn my culture
from.
Um, most of them very young,you know, much younger than me.
Um, but you know, in thatsense, they were kind of my
aunties and uncles because whenyou come back home, you're
starting at zero.
And so I was about one year oldwhen COVID hit.
(05:14):
And, you know, now I'm aboutsix years into this.
So I, you know, I'm just inkindergarten in terms of the
learning pathways and thereintegration.
So um, that's all happening atthe same time that I'm doing a
massive amount of community workuh through our brand platform
that is just a healing journeyfor me.
(05:36):
Being able to give back in thatway after all these years,
understanding why, you know,Creator took me out to put me
back in.
I learned all these amazingskills on the outside that I was
able to bring back home.
Judy Oskam (05:49):
Were you welcomed in by your family?
Amy Denet Deal (05:53):
You know, we're at 27,000 square miles and we're
like, you know, a lot of peoplelive on the reservation.
So that's a pretty bigquestion.
It's not like a small pueblothat you might visit here around
Santa Fe.
We're a very large uhreservation and tribe.
We're the second largest.
Um, my birth family um wasreally blended all across New
(06:15):
Mexico and Arizona.
So bit by bit, I've I've metpeople and learned a lot of that
um connection back through thegenerations, um, still doing
research on that.
But I think with all the reallyexciting good things, you have
to accept all the uh aspects ofthe darkness, which is, you
know, the trauma and theaddiction and all the
(06:36):
intergenerational um violencethat's been done to our tribes.
And that's the part of it forme that I wasn't really prepared
for.
But I've learned that I'm just,you know, you you have to be
able to bring in both of thosethings and balance those in your
life and be a vessel to holdspace for that because a lot of
(06:57):
the projection that might comefrom somebody that's been
traumatized or uh somebody thathas uh using maybe addiction or
other forms of, you know,different aspects of what we do
to cure that awful trauma thatso many of our tribes have been
through, is to just hold space,you know, to accept all of that
(07:20):
with just holding space, knowingwhere it comes from and having
deep empathy.
And that's helped me a lotbecause you know, I I definitely
have my feelings hurt.
I definitely got a little bitscared a couple of times.
But the more and more I learnabout this, this is basically
the healing that's gonna need tohappen.
Is that you can't imagine in2025, right?
(07:44):
That there's still peopleliving without electricity and
water and without Wi-Fi anywherein the United States.
But this is quite common onNavajo Nation.
And the other parts of that, ofwhat's happened before with the
boarding schools and differentparts of this, it's just like
it's unbelievable to me thatthat's the world we're living in
(08:06):
when I was living in inCalifornia, so far removed from
my people.
There's all these aspects ofwho we are that I need to be of
service to.
I need to do what I can do tohelp.
Judy Oskam (08:18):
You know.
And and how do you open yourheart, your head, your spirit to
that?
Because to me, that's it wouldbe easy to close it off and go a
different direction.
How do you how do you how doyou do that?
For listeners that that may befacing trauma too and have a
history, but I I am always justin awe of how the how of that.
Amy Denet Deal (08:43):
It's the empathy.
You know, I don't take anythingpersonally anymore.
I think when I first startedthat journey, I took it all very
personally.
There's a lot of people thatum, you know, pushed back even
against me being here um to beback home.
And that didn't come from ithad it actually had nothing to
(09:04):
do with me.
It had to do what I triggeredin them.
Exactly.
I bring up a part of our ourtribe that a lot of people uh
have very traumatic experienceswith.
So I just kind of recognizedthat early on and had a lot of
empathy for the kind ofnegativity or the darkness that
(09:25):
came with some of this pushbackbecause I understand where it
comes from.
And I can't say that it's a badthing.
I can just say I fully, fullyaccept what that is and um just
really invite it in and holdspace for it.
Judy Oskam (09:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and part of my lens is uha Caucasian woman adopted Asian
babies.
And so when they're sittinghere in your shop, we're
actually in Santa Fe, coming toyou from Santa Fe, and they're
listening on the side, but thatlens for me is is I'm always
(10:05):
wondering about how to connectmy daughters to their culture.
And you know, I just I justalways have been trying to do
that, yeah, but then alwayswondering at some point they too
are going to maybe really wantto dive in.
Yeah.
(10:25):
And they should want to dive inbecause there's trauma there.
Uh I just I I'm just coming toyou with a different view, I
think.
Amy Denet Deal (10:34):
Yeah.
If I would turn back time backto when, you know, my childhood,
because I grew up in the 60sand 70s, there was zero training
for my parents that adopted me.
So there's no, there's nosadness with the fact that they
didn't do a great job withhelping me out there.
Um, but like in this time andage, it's it's definitely being
(10:57):
able to travel, I feel, to thehomelands is a big part of it.
Because I realized when I gothere that like my relatives and
my ancestors, their DNA is likeliterally in the land that I'm
standing on.
Judy Oskam (11:11):
Yeah.
Amy Denet Deal (11:11):
Much of the time, and there's like a
connection that is, I can'texplain the dreams I have, the
messages I have, the clarity Ihave when I'm here in my
homelands versus all the rest ofmy life.
So I know there's there's sometype of connection with that,
with being physically back home.
So that would be my first stepwith any adopted child is be
(11:35):
able for them to experience theplace that they come from.
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Right.
Amy Denet Deal (11:40):
And then uh we're way more progressed right
now in terms of being able tolearn that culture and study
that culture, but more thananything, it's physically being
able to be in that culture.
Um, because I think a lot ofpeople that might be like me
that were adopted out, they comeback home, or natives that grow
(12:01):
up outside of the reservation,outside of the homelands, right?
You know, I think the big partof coming back is that you have
to be able to step into servicebecause you can't.
I I couldn't say I was Dine.
Um, I'm not a Dine brand untilI was able to actually take
those actions that are required,which means stepping up, being
(12:25):
part of it, you know, being partof the good and also being part
of the problematic side.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Right.
Amy Denet Deal (12:31):
So that's for me is always trying to balance
that and always trying to makesure that I practice the
reciprocity through my brandthat allows me everything that
we do great here.
I want to be able to pass thaton to others or pass that on to
future generations, um, whichreally for me is the future of
who we will be, is the youngergeneration.
(12:52):
So that's where I put all myinvestment in.
Judy Oskam (12:54):
Right.
And part of that investment hasbeen the skate park.
Yeah, talk about that becausewhat a what a great idea.
Amy Denet Deal (13:00):
Yeah.
In uh 2022, we built a skatepark in two Grey Hills out in
the middle of nowhere in aremote area of New Mexico.
Um, there's a lot of things forkids to do in the border towns
from Gallup to Shiprock,Kayenta, Tuba City Flagstaff.
So those kids actually havethings that they could probably
do to keep themselves busy.
(13:20):
When you get to the center partof our reservation, which is
27,000 square miles over threestates, the out there in the
middle of nowhere part is wherethere's so little for them to
do.
And uh, even though there's nothigher populations like in the
border towns, I felt like thoseare the kids that really needed
the help the most.
So being able to provide somesort of outdoor recreation
(13:44):
sports facility that didn'trequire certain hours for them
to be on a team or certainuniforms for them to be part of
it or be selected.
It's like they can get on askateboard any day, anytime, and
go work out what they need towork out with their friends or
by themselves.
So for me, it's just a greatlong-term investment to fight
(14:04):
teen suicide, teen depression,addiction, diabetes is if we can
get these kids on skateboardsat an early age and be able to
physically work through some ofthe things that are going on in
their lives, it's just a greattool.
Judy Oskam (14:19):
I love that.
Amy Denet Deal (14:20):
So yeah.
Uh to date, we have donatedover 8,000 skateboards, um,
probably around, gosh, 5,000helmets.
So um that's something that weare gonna keep doing every year
because of the inequity withNavajo Nation having such a high
poverty level.
These kids should have equalaccess to the sport.
(14:42):
So it's providing that forthem.
Judy Oskam (14:44):
I love that.
I love that.
Well, what's next for you?
Look ahead five years.
What are you gonna be?
Amy Denet Deal (14:51):
Gosh, I'm gonna, I'm definitely gonna be here
because my foundation is basedhere.
I'll be probably building skatepark number three by then.
We're working on skate parknumber two.
Um, we're working on all sortsof long-term plans for all areas
of outdoor recreation, um,building parks, building ideas
(15:11):
for modern trading posts run bynative folks, entrepreneurship,
um, creative pathways to thefuture for so many kids that are
in fashion or performing arts.
Um it's just being able toutilize my LinkedIn, the
connections I have to justcreate pathways and bridges.
So um I plan on doing that.
(15:31):
I turned 61 uh in August.
So I'm planning to kind of slowdown and shift into another
gear by the time I turn 70.
So I have about nine years herein Santa Fe to really build the
architecture so someone elsecan run it.
Judy Oskam (15:47):
Yeah.
Amy Denet Deal (15:48):
And then um I plan on just going off and maybe
having a sheep farm or fiberfarm and being the fiber
producer for my daughter'sfashion collections.
Judy Oskam (15:58):
And she's into fashion as well.
She graduates next year.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And then where will the sheepfarm be?
Will it be?
Amy Denet Deal (16:04):
I think it might be in Scotland.
Um, we're looking because uh ofthe situation here in the
United States, she's probablynot gonna be back for a while,
and her possibilities in thefashion industry are much
stronger in Europe than they arehere.
So yeah, I think we're lookingfor kind of relocating over uh
the pond and setting up there.
(16:26):
But I I think it's aninteresting connection between
Scotland and Navajo Nationbecause uh just the connection
we have to um our sheep are aspart of our culture and also
like that they have clans, wehave clans.
I don't know, there's just likeall the weaving that's done
(16:46):
there.
I think it's exciting to kindof connect those two places and
um kind of bounce back and forthbetween the two.
Right.
So yeah, I love that.
Judy Oskam (16:58):
I love that.
Well, last question.
Yeah, the idea of home.
You came home and what doeshome really represent?
Because home home for all of usis that a yearning that we have
as humans?
Amy Denet Deal (17:14):
I mean, what what is home?
Home to me is always thisfeeling of peace, of clarity, of
just authenticity.
Like I know when I have it.
I I a lot of times when I'mdriving around uh Navajo Nation,
because you know, I'm alwaysdriving around because it's such
a big space, um, just lookingat the beauty of the whole
(17:36):
thing.
It's like this calmness, it's asereneness.
Uh it's something that I guessis probably a calmness, probably
more than anything.
I remember the first time I metmy birth mother, and it's the
same thing of all this confusionin my life.
I suddenly had a moment ofcalmness because I met the woman
who gave birth to me.
That was a big moment for me.
Can you describe that?
(17:58):
It was just suddenly seeingher, hearing her, knowing her
that she existed, and the factshe knew I existed just
immediately created thiscalmness in my life of all this
chaos and confusion for so manyyears.
You know, it was never what Iwould have wanted it to be
(18:19):
because we didn't know eachother, we didn't grow up
together.
So there was always sort of adisappointment in the fact that
grieving grieving, but no, itwas just for me.
It was a disappointment.
You want somebody to reallywant you.
Um, that's your mom.
But, you know, there was somany things attached to how I
came into the the world and herjourney at that time.
(18:40):
So it was never going to bewhat I had wanted it to be, but
definitely a sense of calmnessof having that was a really
wonderful thing in my life.
And also the same thing I cansay about coming back to Denita,
which is you know, NavajoNation and the homelands,
there's a calmness, there's afamiliar feeling of blood memory
(19:02):
by being there, and that Icarry with me everywhere I go.
It's just knowing why I was puton the planet, especially now
that I have so much clarity tomy life's purpose through coming
back home and jumping intothis.
Um the noise is eliminated, theconfusion, the chaos that was
(19:24):
part of my life.
And I have this really clearpurpose of how I'm gonna spend
the rest of my time on theplanet.
And I know exactly where Ibelong.
Judy Oskam (19:34):
Yeah, I love it.
Amy Denet Deal (19:35):
So I may not be here full time, I may be
traveling to other places, butto know that this is where I
exist has been a huge change inmy life.
Very positive change.
So that's what I would say homeis for me.
Judy Oskam (19:53):
Well, thanks for listening to stories of change
and creativity.
I couldn't predict when we satdown in the corner of Amy's
studio that our conversationwould cross so many paths.
The sun was starting to set,and my two daughters were
listening nearby.
But Amy's story reminded me tothink more deeply about the idea
(20:14):
of home, not just where we comefrom, but where we feel
grounded and true to our past,present, and future.
So I'd like to leave you with aquestion.
What does home mean to you?
Is it a place, a person, amemory?
Or is it a journey that you'restill making?
And I can relate to that.
(20:36):
If this episode resonated withyou, please share it with
someone who might need someencouragement on their own
journey.
I'm Judy Oskam.
Thanks for listening.
What is home?
Is it a place you're born into,a physical space, a landscape,
or a community?
Or is home something youchoose?
A place where your spiritfinally settles in and your
purpose is clear and focused?
Well, I think maybe it's alittle bit of both, and I've
been thinking a lot about themeaning of home lately.
(00:26):
Welcome to Stories of Changeand Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam, a masscommunication professor at Texas
State University.
And on this episode, I talkwith Amy Denet Deal, the founder
of 4 Kinship.
In her mid-50s, Amy made acourageous decision to leave the
corporate fashion world andbegin a new chapter, actually
(00:49):
returning to her Native Americanroots, coming home in every
sense of the word.
The clothing designer is on amission to redefine sustainable
fashion and uplift indigenousartistry.
Each was full of history andmeaning.
(01:22):
And this conversation wasespecially meaningful to me,
too, as an adoptive mother oftwo Asian daughters.
They're also navigating theirown path to identity and
cultural connection, definingthe meaning of home.
Amy Denet Deal (01:39):
My name is Amy Denet Deal.
I'm the founder of For Kinship,the founder of Indigenous
Futures Forever, our nonprofitarm, as well as Skate Auntie for
a Dine' Skate Garden Project.
Judy Oskam (01:50):
Well, tell me about how you ended up back here.
That's a broad question, butthat's sort of your whole thing
is coming home.
Amy Denet Deal (01:57):
Full circle.
Definitely full circle.
I was adopted out in 1964 to afamily in Indiana.
So that was before the IndianChild Welfare Act.
That was in 74.
So I didn't really have anycontact with my culture until I
came back in 2019.
I had learned what I could frombooks and, you know, just
(02:20):
researching, but to actuallylive here was such an important
part of my journey.
My daughter had graduated highschool and was getting ready for
college.
So as an empty nestry, youknow, it's finally you have this
time that you can think aboutyour life.
Yeah, to think about likewhat's next.
And for me, what was next wasto explore my indigeneity and
(02:41):
really understand what thatmeant since it was so far
removed from my growing up.
Um, very limited um culturaltraining, you know, my whole
life.
So coming back home was toreally jump into that.
And um, I did that by basicallyselling everything I had in
California, hopping into a bigU-Haul van and driving to New
(03:06):
Mexico.
And uh, you know, quite naivenaively just trying to think I
would figure it out when I gothere.
Um, and then shortly afterthat, COVID-19 hit.
So, you know, there's just likea lot of strange coincidences
that brought me here at thattime when I could actually be of
service.
So my first big push into mycommunity was through knowing
(03:30):
how to raise funding and knowinghow to provide aid during a
really, really harsh time.
Judy Oskam (03:36):
Well, and that was part of your background.
Tell me about your where youwere and then your coming to a
media.
Amy Denet Deal (03:42):
Yeah, where I was is was a design executive in
the fashion industry.
Um, and at some point, I thinkwhen my daughter was maybe five
years or six years old, Idecided just to move into
consultancy because I didn'tbelieve in corporate um business
anymore.
I'd seen things that weredeeply disturbing on how that
(04:02):
production is run and thecommunity is impacted by these
large brands I was working for.
So I finally decided I was justgoing to take a different
pathway with that and be abetter mom and be a more
authentic person for my child tolook up to.
Uh, started sustainableconsulting, small batch
consulting.
Um, and that was just kind of,you know, kind of running
(04:25):
parallel to also kind ofplanning this move back to my
homelands.
Judy Oskam (04:30):
Well, and finding out more about your past and
your history.
Amy Denet Deal (04:33):
Yeah.
unknown (04:34):
Yeah.
Amy Denet Deal (04:34):
So yeah, all of that kind of came together in
2019 when I did move out here.
And 2020 and 2021 spent most ofmy time doing mutual aid work,
uh, raising a lot of funds, um,getting a lot of things from
point A to point B,distribution, working with a lot
of other relatives committed toour community.
(04:54):
So I met a really great groupof people to learn my culture
from.
Um, most of them very young,you know, much younger than me.
Um, but you know, in thatsense, they were kind of my
aunties and uncles because whenyou come back home, you're
starting at zero.
And so I was about one year oldwhen COVID hit.
(05:14):
And, you know, now I'm aboutsix years into this.
So I, you know, I'm just inkindergarten in terms of the
learning pathways and thereintegration.
So um, that's all happening atthe same time that I'm doing a
massive amount of community workuh through our brand platform
that is just a healing journeyfor me.
(05:36):
Being able to give back in thatway after all these years,
understanding why, you know,Creator took me out to put me
back in.
I learned all these amazingskills on the outside that I was
able to bring back home.
Judy Oskam (05:49):
Were you welcomed in by your family?
Amy Denet Deal (05:53):
You know, we're at 27,000 square miles and we're
like, you know, a lot of peoplelive on the reservation.
So that's a pretty bigquestion.
It's not like a small pueblothat you might visit here around
Santa Fe.
We're a very large uhreservation and tribe.
We're the second largest.
Um, my birth family um wasreally blended all across New
(06:15):
Mexico and Arizona.
So bit by bit, I've I've metpeople and learned a lot of that
um connection back through thegenerations, um, still doing
research on that.
But I think with all the reallyexciting good things, you have
to accept all the uh aspects ofthe darkness, which is, you
know, the trauma and theaddiction and all the
(06:36):
intergenerational um violencethat's been done to our tribes.
And that's the part of it forme that I wasn't really prepared
for.
But I've learned that I'm just,you know, you you have to be
able to bring in both of thosethings and balance those in your
life and be a vessel to holdspace for that because a lot of
(06:57):
the projection that might comefrom somebody that's been
traumatized or uh somebody thathas uh using maybe addiction or
other forms of, you know,different aspects of what we do
to cure that awful trauma thatso many of our tribes have been
through, is to just hold space,you know, to accept all of that
(07:20):
with just holding space, knowingwhere it comes from and having
deep empathy.
And that's helped me a lotbecause you know, I I definitely
have my feelings hurt.
I definitely got a little bitscared a couple of times.
But the more and more I learnabout this, this is basically
the healing that's gonna need tohappen.
Is that you can't imagine in2025, right?
(07:44):
That there's still peopleliving without electricity and
water and without Wi-Fi anywherein the United States.
But this is quite common onNavajo Nation.
And the other parts of that, ofwhat's happened before with the
boarding schools and differentparts of this, it's just like
it's unbelievable to me thatthat's the world we're living in
(08:06):
when I was living in inCalifornia, so far removed from
my people.
There's all these aspects ofwho we are that I need to be of
service to.
I need to do what I can do tohelp.
Judy Oskam (08:18):
You know.
And and how do you open yourheart, your head, your spirit to
that?
Because to me, that's it wouldbe easy to close it off and go a
different direction.
How do you how do you how doyou do that?
For listeners that that may befacing trauma too and have a
history, but I I am always justin awe of how the how of that.
Amy Denet Deal (08:43):
It's the empathy.
You know, I don't take anythingpersonally anymore.
I think when I first startedthat journey, I took it all very
personally.
There's a lot of people thatum, you know, pushed back even
against me being here um to beback home.
And that didn't come from ithad it actually had nothing to
(09:04):
do with me.
It had to do what I triggeredin them.
Exactly.
I bring up a part of our ourtribe that a lot of people uh
have very traumatic experienceswith.
So I just kind of recognizedthat early on and had a lot of
empathy for the kind ofnegativity or the darkness that
(09:25):
came with some of this pushbackbecause I understand where it
comes from.
And I can't say that it's a badthing.
I can just say I fully, fullyaccept what that is and um just
really invite it in and holdspace for it.
Judy Oskam (09:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and part of my lens is uha Caucasian woman adopted Asian
babies.
And so when they're sittinghere in your shop, we're
actually in Santa Fe, coming toyou from Santa Fe, and they're
listening on the side, but thatlens for me is is I'm always
(10:05):
wondering about how to connectmy daughters to their culture.
And you know, I just I justalways have been trying to do
that, yeah, but then alwayswondering at some point they too
are going to maybe really wantto dive in.
Yeah.
(10:25):
And they should want to dive inbecause there's trauma there.
Uh I just I I'm just coming toyou with a different view, I
think.
Amy Denet Deal (10:34):
Yeah.
If I would turn back time backto when, you know, my childhood,
because I grew up in the 60sand 70s, there was zero training
for my parents that adopted me.
So there's no, there's nosadness with the fact that they
didn't do a great job withhelping me out there.
Um, but like in this time andage, it's it's definitely being
(10:57):
able to travel, I feel, to thehomelands is a big part of it.
Because I realized when I gothere that like my relatives and
my ancestors, their DNA is likeliterally in the land that I'm
standing on.
Judy Oskam (11:11):
Yeah.
Amy Denet Deal (11:11):
Much of the time, and there's like a
connection that is, I can'texplain the dreams I have, the
messages I have, the clarity Ihave when I'm here in my
homelands versus all the rest ofmy life.
So I know there's there's sometype of connection with that,
with being physically back home.
So that would be my first stepwith any adopted child is be
(11:35):
able for them to experience theplace that they come from.
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Right.
Amy Denet Deal (11:40):
And then uh we're way more progressed right
now in terms of being able tolearn that culture and study
that culture, but more thananything, it's physically being
able to be in that culture.
Um, because I think a lot ofpeople that might be like me
that were adopted out, they comeback home, or natives that grow
(12:01):
up outside of the reservation,outside of the homelands, right?
You know, I think the big partof coming back is that you have
to be able to step into servicebecause you can't.
I I couldn't say I was Dine.
Um, I'm not a Dine brand untilI was able to actually take
those actions that are required,which means stepping up, being
(12:25):
part of it, you know, being partof the good and also being part
of the problematic side.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Right.
Amy Denet Deal (12:31):
So that's for me is always trying to balance
that and always trying to makesure that I practice the
reciprocity through my brandthat allows me everything that
we do great here.
I want to be able to pass thaton to others or pass that on to
future generations, um, whichreally for me is the future of
who we will be, is the youngergeneration.
(12:52):
So that's where I put all myinvestment in.
Judy Oskam (12:54):
Right.
And part of that investment hasbeen the skate park.
Yeah, talk about that becausewhat a what a great idea.
Amy Denet Deal (13:00):
Yeah.
In uh 2022, we built a skatepark in two Grey Hills out in
the middle of nowhere in aremote area of New Mexico.
Um, there's a lot of things forkids to do in the border towns
from Gallup to Shiprock,Kayenta, Tuba City Flagstaff.
So those kids actually havethings that they could probably
do to keep themselves busy.
(13:20):
When you get to the center partof our reservation, which is
27,000 square miles over threestates, the out there in the
middle of nowhere part is wherethere's so little for them to
do.
And uh, even though there's nothigher populations like in the
border towns, I felt like thoseare the kids that really needed
the help the most.
So being able to provide somesort of outdoor recreation
(13:44):
sports facility that didn'trequire certain hours for them
to be on a team or certainuniforms for them to be part of
it or be selected.
It's like they can get on askateboard any day, anytime, and
go work out what they need towork out with their friends or
by themselves.
So for me, it's just a greatlong-term investment to fight
(14:04):
teen suicide, teen depression,addiction, diabetes is if we can
get these kids on skateboardsat an early age and be able to
physically work through some ofthe things that are going on in
their lives, it's just a greattool.
Judy Oskam (14:19):
I love that.
Amy Denet Deal (14:20):
So yeah.
Uh to date, we have donatedover 8,000 skateboards, um,
probably around, gosh, 5,000helmets.
So um that's something that weare gonna keep doing every year
because of the inequity withNavajo Nation having such a high
poverty level.
These kids should have equalaccess to the sport.
(14:42):
So it's providing that forthem.
Judy Oskam (14:44):
I love that.
I love that.
Well, what's next for you?
Look ahead five years.
What are you gonna be?
Amy Denet Deal (14:51):
Gosh, I'm gonna, I'm definitely gonna be here
because my foundation is basedhere.
I'll be probably building skatepark number three by then.
We're working on skate parknumber two.
Um, we're working on all sortsof long-term plans for all areas
of outdoor recreation, um,building parks, building ideas
(15:11):
for modern trading posts run bynative folks, entrepreneurship,
um, creative pathways to thefuture for so many kids that are
in fashion or performing arts.
Um it's just being able toutilize my LinkedIn, the
connections I have to justcreate pathways and bridges.
So um I plan on doing that.
(15:31):
I turned 61 uh in August.
So I'm planning to kind of slowdown and shift into another
gear by the time I turn 70.
So I have about nine years herein Santa Fe to really build the
architecture so someone elsecan run it.
Judy Oskam (15:47):
Yeah.
Amy Denet Deal (15:48):
And then um I plan on just going off and maybe
having a sheep farm or fiberfarm and being the fiber
producer for my daughter'sfashion collections.
Judy Oskam (15:58):
And she's into fashion as well.
She graduates next year.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And then where will the sheepfarm be?
Will it be?
Amy Denet Deal (16:04):
I think it might be in Scotland.
Um, we're looking because uh ofthe situation here in the
United States, she's probablynot gonna be back for a while,
and her possibilities in thefashion industry are much
stronger in Europe than they arehere.
So yeah, I think we're lookingfor kind of relocating over uh
the pond and setting up there.
(16:26):
But I I think it's aninteresting connection between
Scotland and Navajo Nationbecause uh just the connection
we have to um our sheep are aspart of our culture and also
like that they have clans, wehave clans.
I don't know, there's just likeall the weaving that's done
(16:46):
there.
I think it's exciting to kindof connect those two places and
um kind of bounce back and forthbetween the two.
Right.
So yeah, I love that.
Judy Oskam (16:58):
I love that.
Well, last question.
Yeah, the idea of home.
You came home and what doeshome really represent?
Because home home for all of usis that a yearning that we have
as humans?
Amy Denet Deal (17:14):
I mean, what what is home?
Home to me is always thisfeeling of peace, of clarity, of
just authenticity.
Like I know when I have it.
I I a lot of times when I'mdriving around uh Navajo Nation,
because you know, I'm alwaysdriving around because it's such
a big space, um, just lookingat the beauty of the whole
(17:36):
thing.
It's like this calmness, it's asereneness.
Uh it's something that I guessis probably a calmness, probably
more than anything.
I remember the first time I metmy birth mother, and it's the
same thing of all this confusionin my life.
I suddenly had a moment ofcalmness because I met the woman
who gave birth to me.
That was a big moment for me.
Can you describe that?
(17:58):
It was just suddenly seeingher, hearing her, knowing her
that she existed, and the factshe knew I existed just
immediately created thiscalmness in my life of all this
chaos and confusion for so manyyears.
You know, it was never what Iwould have wanted it to be
(18:19):
because we didn't know eachother, we didn't grow up
together.
So there was always sort of adisappointment in the fact that
grieving grieving, but no, itwas just for me.
It was a disappointment.
You want somebody to reallywant you.
Um, that's your mom.
But, you know, there was somany things attached to how I
came into the the world and herjourney at that time.
(18:40):
So it was never going to bewhat I had wanted it to be, but
definitely a sense of calmnessof having that was a really
wonderful thing in my life.
And also the same thing I cansay about coming back to Denita,
which is you know, NavajoNation and the homelands,
there's a calmness, there's afamiliar feeling of blood memory
(19:02):
by being there, and that Icarry with me everywhere I go.
It's just knowing why I was puton the planet, especially now
that I have so much clarity tomy life's purpose through coming
back home and jumping intothis.
Um the noise is eliminated, theconfusion, the chaos that was
(19:24):
part of my life.
And I have this really clearpurpose of how I'm gonna spend
the rest of my time on theplanet.
And I know exactly where Ibelong.
Judy Oskam (19:34):
Yeah, I love it.
Amy Denet Deal (19:35):
So I may not be here full time, I may be
traveling to other places, butto know that this is where I
exist has been a huge change inmy life.
Very positive change.
So that's what I would say homeis for me.
Judy Oskam (19:53):
Well, thanks for listening to stories of change
and creativity.
I couldn't predict when we satdown in the corner of Amy's
studio that our conversationwould cross so many paths.
The sun was starting to set,and my two daughters were
listening nearby.
But Amy's story reminded me tothink more deeply about the idea
(20:14):
of home, not just where we comefrom, but where we feel
grounded and true to our past,present, and future.
So I'd like to leave you with aquestion.
What does home mean to you?
Is it a place, a person, amemory?
Or is it a journey that you'restill making?
And I can relate to that.
(20:36):
If this episode resonated withyou, please share it with
someone who might need someencouragement on their own
journey.
I'm Judy Oskam.
Thanks for listening.
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