November 15, 2021 • 19 mins
Adoption, Culture and Family
On this episode I was honored to interview Natalie Pappas. She was adopted from the Hunan Province of China when she was two years old. I was there on that September day. My husband and I adopted our oldest daughter from the same orphanage. A life changing event.
Natalie Pappas created the online project Tiger Lily Stories to provide a space and a platform for adoptee voices and stories. During our conversation, we talk about race, adoption and Asian American identity.
Pappas graduated from The New School in 2019 with a degree in Literary Studies. Natalie is passionate about fashion, photography, and writing and pursues these interests in her creative and professional work.
Tiger Lily Stories
https://www.tigerlilystories.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Judy Oskam (00:02):
Welcome to Stories of Change and Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam.
I'm a university professor,Gallup strengths coach and Tiny
Habits Coach.
On this podcast, we featurepurpose driven individuals who
inspire, motivate and educate.
I'm always interested in thechoices we make and the journey
we take.
Well, on this episode, we'retalking about adoption culture
(00:25):
and family with Natalie Pappas.
Natalie was born in the Hunanprovince of China and was
adopted when she was two yearsold, actually Natalie and my
oldest daughter, Danielle werein the same orphanage and
adoption group.
So I have fond memories ofNatalie as a baby.
Natalie is a graduate of the newschool and she lives in New
(00:47):
York.
She's passionate about fashion,photography and writing.
She developed an online projectcalled Tiger Lily Stories to
explore her adoptee and AsianAmerican identity.
Tiger Lily Stories is a platformthat lets adoptees share their
voices and stories.
(01:09):
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Natalie Pappas (01:13):
So basically, um, during the beginning of the
pandemic, um, and the increaseof racial attacks, um, against
Asian people, I started toreflect more about my adoption
and my identity as an adoptee.
Um, and as an Asian-American.
And so two things really kind ofkick-started, um, the idea for
this project.
(01:33):
Um, the first being, I, I don'tremember how I found it, but I
watched this documentary, um,one child nation, which is a
documentary about the one childpolicy and just interviews
people who had to give up theirchild, or who knew someone who
did the politics in China andwhat led to this policy.
Um, and it just made me aware ofcertain things that I never knew
about.
(01:54):
Um, even though my parents likenever wants me to feel unwanted
for a long time, I did feel asense of unwanted just because I
didn't really know about thepolitics in China, um, or about
the one child policy.
All I really knew andinternalized was that I was
given up.
Um, so it really helps clarifythings for me.
(02:16):
Um, and just, I was better ableto understand like what led to
this policy.
Um, but also made me questionsome things, um, in the
documentary, it talked about howsome orphanages or agencies
fabricated stories, um, aboutthe adoptees origins, just to
make it sound nicer for thepeople coming to adopt.
There were people who becametraffickers, um, and brought
(02:37):
babies orphanages, um, for moneyor, or the government, if they
found out a family had an extrachild, um, they would
essentially like kidnap thekidnap this child.
Um, I don't, yeah, I don't knowabout my orphanage or how much
information was true, but itjust made me think about other
adoptees and the stories theywere told.
(02:57):
Um, and how much, just ingeneral they knew about the one
policy you're trying to history.
Um, and then with the increaseof like racial attacks, I
remember I saw those socialmedia posts about how Chinese
adoptees or Asian adoptees wantto show support for Asian
communities, but never sometimesdon't really feel included in
them.
Um, like we feel the negativeattitudes from people.
(03:19):
We feel the racism, we feel thefear of being attacked.
Um, but we don't necessarilyhave the support of the Asian
community.
Um, I think a lot of adopteeshave felt some sense of
alienation just because we can'treally connect, um, culturally
or linguistically.
Um, and we don't really havethat connection to the culture
or the language through like ourparents or whoever.
(03:41):
So there's this feeling ofin-between.
Um, yeah, and that's justsomething I've become more aware
of recently.
And I wanted to reach out toother adoptees to see how they
felt.
Um, I realized I only reallyknew my adoption story and my
feelings about it, but I wantedto hear other people's stories
and see if I could connect andlearn from their experiences as
well as, um, maybe sharesomething that they could
(04:03):
connect or learn from as well.
Um, ultimately I just wanted tocreate a community or like a
platform for people to sharetheir voices, um, and be able to
read and relate to others.
Judy Oskam (04:14):
Yeah.
So, so, yeah.
And so, so I saw, I saw yourpost on, uh, the, uh, China,
China children, internationalsite.
And, um, I noticed that you used, um, the title Tiger Lily.
Why, why did you pick thattitle?
Natalie Pappas (04:34):
Um, I, I don't remember how I found this, but I
was looking at tiger lilies andI saw that they were native to
Asian countries like China,Japan, Korea, and, um, but
they're identified as anaturalized plant and
naturalized plants are plantsthat are, that grow in places,
(04:54):
um, that aren't, they're likeplace of origin.
And I thought that that prettymuch really resonated with
obviously like how, whatadoptees are.
Um, and I know, and I think it'ssomeone mentioned somewhere that
like, sometimes people have likea negative attitude towards like
these, these naturalized plans.
And I know like that's sometimespeople adopt, these can feel
similar feelings, um, towardsus.
(05:17):
So it just, yeah, just kind ofseemed like a perfect
representation for, for us.
Judy Oskam (05:23):
I love that.
And, and I think it does fitvery nicely.
And, uh, our, I want to tell ourlisteners that, um, Natalie and
I have known each other for along time.
I was there on the day that youwere adopted because my daughter
Danielle was also adopted andwas in the same orphanage.
So I feel a special place in myheart for, for, for you guys and
(05:46):
for the situation that we've allbeen going through over the past
year.
Um, I liked your comment aboutin between.
Can you, can you dive into thata little?
What do you mean by feeling sortof in between?
Natalie Pappas (06:01):
I think for me and then for other people I've
talked to, we never really feelpart of fully part of one
community.
So, um, a lot of us growing uplike white community,
predominantly white communities,and we were always seeing are
(06:21):
usually seen as somewhat other,just because of the faith.
Um, so you enter, even if wewanted to like maybe connect
with like our Chinese identityor something, it would even
alienate us even further from,from this community.
So we were never fully part ofit.
And then within the Asiancommunity, um, we're never fully
part fully, never really fullyincluded there because we can't,
(06:41):
like I said, connect, um,culturally, we don't have the
same necessarily the sameupbringing, the same connection
to food, same connection tolanguage.
Um, and I felt that personally,like I went to an international
high school and I, there were alot of other Asian students, a
lot of other Chinese students.
And I always felt like I neverfully belonged within that
group.
(07:02):
Um, just because I did havethese connections.
So there's always that sense oflike, you don't really have, um,
the ability to fully integratein one side
Judy Oskam (07:11):
Has this, has this blog and this website.
And has it helped you find yourvoice in this space?
Natalie Pappas (07:18):
Yeah, I definitely think so.
I think, I think just this blogwas platform in itself has
created a community for adopteesand for people who don't really
have that sense of belonging orability to share what they're
feeling in another space.
Um, so it's definitely provideda voice for me to like share my
own story and my own feelings,but it also provides voice for
(07:39):
others to share their, theirexperiences.
Judy Oskam (07:43):
Talk about the reaction and what you have been
hearing from other Chineseadoptees.
Natalie Pappas (07:49):
I mean, people, people have said that they're
very grateful, um, that I, thatthe space was created to, like I
said, to provide, um, a platformfor them to share their story.
Um, and just because like, we'veall, we've all felt the sense of
like alienation or not belongingand just having the space where
(08:11):
we can connect to others andfeel like, feel that we're less
alone and not, um, the only onesexperiencing these things.
Um, yeah, it's been reallygreat.
Judy Oskam (08:21):
Well, and you know, you know, you wrote on your, on
your blog that, that, um,without the proper language and
knowledge, some people are eventoo afraid to ask......treating
adoptees and adoption issomewhat of an anomaly or an
enigma, but we are more than thelabels of adoptee or Asia.
(08:41):
What did you mean by that?
Natalie Pappas (08:44):
I think people, when they think of adoption,
they see it as almost somewhatof like a taboo subject.
Um, it's and it's not somethingthat like you should be afraid
to about or ask questions abouta lot of adoptees I've talked to
have had people apologize whenpeople, um, when the doctor
tells them that they're adopted.
And I think people can seeadoption's very like one note
(09:08):
kind of way, especially in thesaviorism kind of way.
Like we adoptees where thisterrible situation.
Now we should be like very happyand grateful that we were like
saved.
Um, and I want people to shifttheir language around adoption.
If they're going to askquestions or talk about it.
Um, instead of saying thingslike you miss, like your real
(09:28):
parents, you could say, like,how do you feel about your birth
parents?
Um, so just like seeing thatwe're not just this thing that
people don't really understand,and we have our own story, we
have our own viewpoints on ouradoption, but it's also, we're
more than that.
Like, we were artists where wewere students where, um, we were
(09:50):
scientists, like all thesethings.
We, we'd not, we're not justlike our, our beginning of our
origin.
Judy Oskam (09:55):
Right.
And I've always tried to tell mykids that you really, it's your
story to tell.
And I think it's your story totell you, right in here together
yet individual collective yetapart, we all have roots where
all the voice of tiger lilies.
And I love that.
I love how you ended that onyour, on the first page.
(10:19):
And then it goes the websitejust to, you know, describe that
for our listeners is a, andwe'll put this in the show notes
so people can find your site.
Um, but you have such, such, um,um, special and intimate stories
from other adoptees.
Uh, and I guess if people wereinterested in, they, they were,
(10:39):
were adopted, they can contactyou and submit a story and they
don't have to give their name.
Right.
Cause you have one or two thatare anonymous in there.
Natalie Pappas (10:47):
Yes.
Right?
Judy Oskam (10:49):
Yeah.
What's been the most surprising,um, that you have heard from,
from other adoptees what'ssurprised you the most?
Natalie Pappas (10:59):
I think, I think the way some parents have
approached, um, adoption or havecommunicated with their, with
their child, I think for my, formyself, like my parents have
always been very open to talkingwith me, um, about my adoption
(11:20):
and they never really approachedit like in the saviors and kind
of way where like you should begrateful or, or anything like
that.
But I've been surprised that alot of adoptees or a few
adoptees that I've spoken tohave not had a great
relationship with their parentsin this aspect.
Um, either their parents don'twant to talk about their
adoption or the feelings theadoptees had, or they may
(11:43):
invalidate the sense offeelings.
You shouldn't be sad about thisbecause like you have this, you
have a loving family and a greathome, but that really just kind
of invalidates any feelings ofloss.
Um, and it just pushes away anynegative feelings when they
should be as respected, um, and,and heard as positive ones.
(12:05):
So, um, and, and then I've alsoanother adoptee has told me that
she doesn't have a greatrelationship with her mom
because she thinks her mom feelsguilt when her daughter tries to
learn more about Chineseculture, because she feels that
she's lacking the mom and feelslike she's lacking in some way.
Like she didn't provide enoughor anything like that.
(12:27):
So I think there's whatsurprised me is just some like
misunderstandings andmiscommunications, I think
between the parent and theadoptee,
Judy Oskam (12:34):
What do you want readers to learn from your blog
about the idea of family andadoption?
Is there something there thatreaders can learn and take away,
um, to better understand howadoption is part of family and
family is always a part ofadoption?
Natalie Pappas (12:54):
Yeah.
I think just understanding thatand pushing your mindset out of
the traditional framework ofwhat you think of family should
be like, that they should lookthe same and maybe they should
be the same.
Um, family can be comprised of alot of different components, a
lot of different aspects.
Um, and I think it should,shouldn't be such a strange
thing.
Like if you see someone wholooks, um, someone who looks
(13:18):
different in, within a familygroup,
Judy Oskam (13:21):
Um, Natalie, the idea of color I've had to learn,
um, throughout my years, as anadoptive mom about color,
because the idea of saying, Idon't see color is not really
accurate or not really helpful,I think.
Um, but I have learned, and youcan tell me what you think of
(13:42):
this is to think about, I seeyour color and I value I value
it.
Is that a better way to thinkabout race, ethnicity, and color
people of color?
Natalie Pappas (13:55):
I think so.
I think when people say thingslike, I don't see color, like
they say it from a place maybeI'm trying to help, but in
actuality, I think it, again, itinvalidates or negates anything
this person of color might,might be feeling might be going
(14:17):
through.
Um, by saying like blanketstatement, I don't see this
race, then you're saying, Idon't see the problems that come
up with someone who is a personof color.
Um, so by saying, you know, thatyou do see someone it's saying,
seeing someone as a person ofcolor, you're saying that you
see the struggles that they're,that they can go through, um,
(14:39):
you see the feelings that theymight have.
Um, and you recognize for themparticularly what the struggles
that they could go through.
So,
Judy Oskam (14:50):
Yeah, I think that's what I, I came to the conclusion
because I would look at mydaughters and I would not think,
oh, there's my Chinese daughter.
I would just think there's mydaughter.
Right.
So just kind of understandingthat it was important for me to
validate that, um, was, was alearning experience for me.
(15:11):
Um, and I think, I think siteslike yours really do help us
better understand yourperspective.
And where, where do you want totake this website and what's
next for you, Natalie?
Natalie Pappas (15:28):
Um, I mean, I definitely want to interview
talk to more adoptees, I thinkmaybe expand it.
Um, right now I've only beeninterviewing Chinese adoptees,
but maybe expands talk to theKorean adoptees or other Asian
adoptees, um, just to kind ofget a better sense another yeah.
But our understanding and seethe, kind of the differences
between the adoptions of systemswithin, um, different countries.
(15:52):
I also maybe want to, right now,it's pretty much just focus on
adoptees and their adoptionstory is, but like I said before
, um, like we mentioned before,we're obviously more than our
adoption or adoption story.
So I want to kind of showcase orhighlight, um, things that like
(16:14):
this, this, these people thatI'm interviewing are passionate
about.
So for example, I talked to anadoptee who's really into
illustration or another adopteewho's really into photography
and other adoptees really intolike social justice.
Um, so I might want to createanother, another, um, case these
(16:34):
, um, these, th these thingsthat make these, make us who we
are, um, or even I mighteventually want, I've been, I'm
really into like videography.
So I might want to create avideo featuring, um, different
adoptees and kind of compilingour stories in that way.
Um, long-term like down the roadwhen I, if I'm able to like talk
(16:58):
to enough adoptees, I might wantto try to publish these stories
as like an anthology.
Um, but yeah, I think that's
Judy Oskam (17:07):
I think you really do have the opportunity to do,
to do a book with some folks Ican see, you know, with your
background in film andphotography, you could include
that in there.
And I think that would be reallyan interesting, I think it would
capture a piece of history andthat's something that I think
about when you look at Asians inAmerica, the adoptees are a very
(17:31):
important part of the AsianAmerican story.
And I think you're helping uswrite this right now.
That's kind of the way I see it.
Is there anything you would likereaders to take away from your
site?
Natalie Pappas (17:45):
People who aren't adoptees?
Um, I think just learning,learning the language, shifting
the language around adoption.
Um, I also want people to learnnot to invalidate, um, adoptees,
like sense of loss.
Um, I want ultimately for themto read these stories and get a
(18:06):
better understanding of who weare and more willing and just to
be more willing to listen andlearn.
Um, and then for adoptees, Ihope they find a sense of
comfort and knowing they aren'talone in the feelings and
struggles they've had, um,growing up or currently, um, I
also provided like resourcespage on the website with links
(18:27):
to adoptee Facebook groups, um,like birth parents or searches,
movies, podcasts.
Um, so I hope they can find morecommunities to be part of and
just continue to educatethemselves, um, and just learn
more about China's history andadoption in general.
Judy Oskam (18:45):
I love it, Natalie.
Thank you for the work you'redoing and thank you for, for
providing a resource for all ofus to learn more about these
topics.
Thanks for joining us today.
Thank you.
Natalie Pappas (18:57):
Thank you for having me.
Judy Oskam (18:59):
Thank you for listening to Stories of Change
and Creativity.
Check out the show notes formore information about this
episode.
And remember if you have a storyto tell or know someone who does
reach out to me at judyoskam.comand thanks for listening.
Welcome to Stories of Change and Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam.
I'm a university professor,Gallup strengths coach and Tiny
Habits Coach.
On this podcast, we featurepurpose driven individuals who
inspire, motivate and educate.
I'm always interested in thechoices we make and the journey
we take.
Well, on this episode, we'retalking about adoption culture
(00:25):
and family with Natalie Pappas.
Natalie was born in the Hunanprovince of China and was
adopted when she was two yearsold, actually Natalie and my
oldest daughter, Danielle werein the same orphanage and
adoption group.
So I have fond memories ofNatalie as a baby.
Natalie is a graduate of the newschool and she lives in New
(00:47):
York.
She's passionate about fashion,photography and writing.
She developed an online projectcalled Tiger Lily Stories to
explore her adoptee and AsianAmerican identity.
Tiger Lily Stories is a platformthat lets adoptees share their
voices and stories.
(01:09):
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Natalie Pappas (01:13):
So basically, um, during the beginning of the
pandemic, um, and the increaseof racial attacks, um, against
Asian people, I started toreflect more about my adoption
and my identity as an adoptee.
Um, and as an Asian-American.
And so two things really kind ofkick-started, um, the idea for
this project.
(01:33):
Um, the first being, I, I don'tremember how I found it, but I
watched this documentary, um,one child nation, which is a
documentary about the one childpolicy and just interviews
people who had to give up theirchild, or who knew someone who
did the politics in China andwhat led to this policy.
Um, and it just made me aware ofcertain things that I never knew
about.
(01:54):
Um, even though my parents likenever wants me to feel unwanted
for a long time, I did feel asense of unwanted just because I
didn't really know about thepolitics in China, um, or about
the one child policy.
All I really knew andinternalized was that I was
given up.
Um, so it really helps clarifythings for me.
(02:16):
Um, and just, I was better ableto understand like what led to
this policy.
Um, but also made me questionsome things, um, in the
documentary, it talked about howsome orphanages or agencies
fabricated stories, um, aboutthe adoptees origins, just to
make it sound nicer for thepeople coming to adopt.
There were people who becametraffickers, um, and brought
(02:37):
babies orphanages, um, for moneyor, or the government, if they
found out a family had an extrachild, um, they would
essentially like kidnap thekidnap this child.
Um, I don't, yeah, I don't knowabout my orphanage or how much
information was true, but itjust made me think about other
adoptees and the stories theywere told.
(02:57):
Um, and how much, just ingeneral they knew about the one
policy you're trying to history.
Um, and then with the increaseof like racial attacks, I
remember I saw those socialmedia posts about how Chinese
adoptees or Asian adoptees wantto show support for Asian
communities, but never sometimesdon't really feel included in
them.
Um, like we feel the negativeattitudes from people.
(03:19):
We feel the racism, we feel thefear of being attacked.
Um, but we don't necessarilyhave the support of the Asian
community.
Um, I think a lot of adopteeshave felt some sense of
alienation just because we can'treally connect, um, culturally
or linguistically.
Um, and we don't really havethat connection to the culture
or the language through like ourparents or whoever.
(03:41):
So there's this feeling ofin-between.
Um, yeah, and that's justsomething I've become more aware
of recently.
And I wanted to reach out toother adoptees to see how they
felt.
Um, I realized I only reallyknew my adoption story and my
feelings about it, but I wantedto hear other people's stories
and see if I could connect andlearn from their experiences as
well as, um, maybe sharesomething that they could
(04:03):
connect or learn from as well.
Um, ultimately I just wanted tocreate a community or like a
platform for people to sharetheir voices, um, and be able to
read and relate to others.
Judy Oskam (04:14):
Yeah.
So, so, yeah.
And so, so I saw, I saw yourpost on, uh, the, uh, China,
China children, internationalsite.
And, um, I noticed that you used, um, the title Tiger Lily.
Why, why did you pick thattitle?
Natalie Pappas (04:34):
Um, I, I don't remember how I found this, but I
was looking at tiger lilies andI saw that they were native to
Asian countries like China,Japan, Korea, and, um, but
they're identified as anaturalized plant and
naturalized plants are plantsthat are, that grow in places,
(04:54):
um, that aren't, they're likeplace of origin.
And I thought that that prettymuch really resonated with
obviously like how, whatadoptees are.
Um, and I know, and I think it'ssomeone mentioned somewhere that
like, sometimes people have likea negative attitude towards like
these, these naturalized plans.
And I know like that's sometimespeople adopt, these can feel
similar feelings, um, towardsus.
(05:17):
So it just, yeah, just kind ofseemed like a perfect
representation for, for us.
Judy Oskam (05:23):
I love that.
And, and I think it does fitvery nicely.
And, uh, our, I want to tell ourlisteners that, um, Natalie and
I have known each other for along time.
I was there on the day that youwere adopted because my daughter
Danielle was also adopted andwas in the same orphanage.
So I feel a special place in myheart for, for, for you guys and
(05:46):
for the situation that we've allbeen going through over the past
year.
Um, I liked your comment aboutin between.
Can you, can you dive into thata little?
What do you mean by feeling sortof in between?
Natalie Pappas (06:01):
I think for me and then for other people I've
talked to, we never really feelpart of fully part of one
community.
So, um, a lot of us growing uplike white community,
predominantly white communities,and we were always seeing are
(06:21):
usually seen as somewhat other,just because of the faith.
Um, so you enter, even if wewanted to like maybe connect
with like our Chinese identityor something, it would even
alienate us even further from,from this community.
So we were never fully part ofit.
And then within the Asiancommunity, um, we're never fully
part fully, never really fullyincluded there because we can't,
(06:41):
like I said, connect, um,culturally, we don't have the
same necessarily the sameupbringing, the same connection
to food, same connection tolanguage.
Um, and I felt that personally,like I went to an international
high school and I, there were alot of other Asian students, a
lot of other Chinese students.
And I always felt like I neverfully belonged within that
group.
(07:02):
Um, just because I did havethese connections.
So there's always that sense oflike, you don't really have, um,
the ability to fully integratein one side
Judy Oskam (07:11):
Has this, has this blog and this website.
And has it helped you find yourvoice in this space?
Natalie Pappas (07:18):
Yeah, I definitely think so.
I think, I think just this blogwas platform in itself has
created a community for adopteesand for people who don't really
have that sense of belonging orability to share what they're
feeling in another space.
Um, so it's definitely provideda voice for me to like share my
own story and my own feelings,but it also provides voice for
(07:39):
others to share their, theirexperiences.
Judy Oskam (07:43):
Talk about the reaction and what you have been
hearing from other Chineseadoptees.
Natalie Pappas (07:49):
I mean, people, people have said that they're
very grateful, um, that I, thatthe space was created to, like I
said, to provide, um, a platformfor them to share their story.
Um, and just because like, we'veall, we've all felt the sense of
like alienation or not belongingand just having the space where
(08:11):
we can connect to others andfeel like, feel that we're less
alone and not, um, the only onesexperiencing these things.
Um, yeah, it's been reallygreat.
Judy Oskam (08:21):
Well, and you know, you know, you wrote on your, on
your blog that, that, um,without the proper language and
knowledge, some people are eventoo afraid to ask......treating
adoptees and adoption issomewhat of an anomaly or an
enigma, but we are more than thelabels of adoptee or Asia.
(08:41):
What did you mean by that?
Natalie Pappas (08:44):
I think people, when they think of adoption,
they see it as almost somewhatof like a taboo subject.
Um, it's and it's not somethingthat like you should be afraid
to about or ask questions abouta lot of adoptees I've talked to
have had people apologize whenpeople, um, when the doctor
tells them that they're adopted.
And I think people can seeadoption's very like one note
(09:08):
kind of way, especially in thesaviorism kind of way.
Like we adoptees where thisterrible situation.
Now we should be like very happyand grateful that we were like
saved.
Um, and I want people to shifttheir language around adoption.
If they're going to askquestions or talk about it.
Um, instead of saying thingslike you miss, like your real
(09:28):
parents, you could say, like,how do you feel about your birth
parents?
Um, so just like seeing thatwe're not just this thing that
people don't really understand,and we have our own story, we
have our own viewpoints on ouradoption, but it's also, we're
more than that.
Like, we were artists where wewere students where, um, we were
(09:50):
scientists, like all thesethings.
We, we'd not, we're not justlike our, our beginning of our
origin.
Judy Oskam (09:55):
Right.
And I've always tried to tell mykids that you really, it's your
story to tell.
And I think it's your story totell you, right in here together
yet individual collective yetapart, we all have roots where
all the voice of tiger lilies.
And I love that.
I love how you ended that onyour, on the first page.
(10:19):
And then it goes the websitejust to, you know, describe that
for our listeners is a, andwe'll put this in the show notes
so people can find your site.
Um, but you have such, such, um,um, special and intimate stories
from other adoptees.
Uh, and I guess if people wereinterested in, they, they were,
(10:39):
were adopted, they can contactyou and submit a story and they
don't have to give their name.
Right.
Cause you have one or two thatare anonymous in there.
Natalie Pappas (10:47):
Yes.
Right?
Judy Oskam (10:49):
Yeah.
What's been the most surprising,um, that you have heard from,
from other adoptees what'ssurprised you the most?
Natalie Pappas (10:59):
I think, I think the way some parents have
approached, um, adoption or havecommunicated with their, with
their child, I think for my, formyself, like my parents have
always been very open to talkingwith me, um, about my adoption
(11:20):
and they never really approachedit like in the saviors and kind
of way where like you should begrateful or, or anything like
that.
But I've been surprised that alot of adoptees or a few
adoptees that I've spoken tohave not had a great
relationship with their parentsin this aspect.
Um, either their parents don'twant to talk about their
adoption or the feelings theadoptees had, or they may
(11:43):
invalidate the sense offeelings.
You shouldn't be sad about thisbecause like you have this, you
have a loving family and a greathome, but that really just kind
of invalidates any feelings ofloss.
Um, and it just pushes away anynegative feelings when they
should be as respected, um, and,and heard as positive ones.
(12:05):
So, um, and, and then I've alsoanother adoptee has told me that
she doesn't have a greatrelationship with her mom
because she thinks her mom feelsguilt when her daughter tries to
learn more about Chineseculture, because she feels that
she's lacking the mom and feelslike she's lacking in some way.
Like she didn't provide enoughor anything like that.
(12:27):
So I think there's whatsurprised me is just some like
misunderstandings andmiscommunications, I think
between the parent and theadoptee,
Judy Oskam (12:34):
What do you want readers to learn from your blog
about the idea of family andadoption?
Is there something there thatreaders can learn and take away,
um, to better understand howadoption is part of family and
family is always a part ofadoption?
Natalie Pappas (12:54):
Yeah.
I think just understanding thatand pushing your mindset out of
the traditional framework ofwhat you think of family should
be like, that they should lookthe same and maybe they should
be the same.
Um, family can be comprised of alot of different components, a
lot of different aspects.
Um, and I think it should,shouldn't be such a strange
thing.
Like if you see someone wholooks, um, someone who looks
(13:18):
different in, within a familygroup,
Judy Oskam (13:21):
Um, Natalie, the idea of color I've had to learn,
um, throughout my years, as anadoptive mom about color,
because the idea of saying, Idon't see color is not really
accurate or not really helpful,I think.
Um, but I have learned, and youcan tell me what you think of
(13:42):
this is to think about, I seeyour color and I value I value
it.
Is that a better way to thinkabout race, ethnicity, and color
people of color?
Natalie Pappas (13:55):
I think so.
I think when people say thingslike, I don't see color, like
they say it from a place maybeI'm trying to help, but in
actuality, I think it, again, itinvalidates or negates anything
this person of color might,might be feeling might be going
(14:17):
through.
Um, by saying like blanketstatement, I don't see this
race, then you're saying, Idon't see the problems that come
up with someone who is a personof color.
Um, so by saying, you know, thatyou do see someone it's saying,
seeing someone as a person ofcolor, you're saying that you
see the struggles that they're,that they can go through, um,
(14:39):
you see the feelings that theymight have.
Um, and you recognize for themparticularly what the struggles
that they could go through.
So,
Judy Oskam (14:50):
Yeah, I think that's what I, I came to the conclusion
because I would look at mydaughters and I would not think,
oh, there's my Chinese daughter.
I would just think there's mydaughter.
Right.
So just kind of understandingthat it was important for me to
validate that, um, was, was alearning experience for me.
(15:11):
Um, and I think, I think siteslike yours really do help us
better understand yourperspective.
And where, where do you want totake this website and what's
next for you, Natalie?
Natalie Pappas (15:28):
Um, I mean, I definitely want to interview
talk to more adoptees, I thinkmaybe expand it.
Um, right now I've only beeninterviewing Chinese adoptees,
but maybe expands talk to theKorean adoptees or other Asian
adoptees, um, just to kind ofget a better sense another yeah.
But our understanding and seethe, kind of the differences
between the adoptions of systemswithin, um, different countries.
(15:52):
I also maybe want to, right now,it's pretty much just focus on
adoptees and their adoptionstory is, but like I said before
, um, like we mentioned before,we're obviously more than our
adoption or adoption story.
So I want to kind of showcase orhighlight, um, things that like
(16:14):
this, this, these people thatI'm interviewing are passionate
about.
So for example, I talked to anadoptee who's really into
illustration or another adopteewho's really into photography
and other adoptees really intolike social justice.
Um, so I might want to createanother, another, um, case these
(16:34):
, um, these, th these thingsthat make these, make us who we
are, um, or even I mighteventually want, I've been, I'm
really into like videography.
So I might want to create avideo featuring, um, different
adoptees and kind of compilingour stories in that way.
Um, long-term like down the roadwhen I, if I'm able to like talk
(16:58):
to enough adoptees, I might wantto try to publish these stories
as like an anthology.
Um, but yeah, I think that's
Judy Oskam (17:07):
I think you really do have the opportunity to do,
to do a book with some folks Ican see, you know, with your
background in film andphotography, you could include
that in there.
And I think that would be reallyan interesting, I think it would
capture a piece of history andthat's something that I think
about when you look at Asians inAmerica, the adoptees are a very
(17:31):
important part of the AsianAmerican story.
And I think you're helping uswrite this right now.
That's kind of the way I see it.
Is there anything you would likereaders to take away from your
site?
Natalie Pappas (17:45):
People who aren't adoptees?
Um, I think just learning,learning the language, shifting
the language around adoption.
Um, I also want people to learnnot to invalidate, um, adoptees,
like sense of loss.
Um, I want ultimately for themto read these stories and get a
(18:06):
better understanding of who weare and more willing and just to
be more willing to listen andlearn.
Um, and then for adoptees, Ihope they find a sense of
comfort and knowing they aren'talone in the feelings and
struggles they've had, um,growing up or currently, um, I
also provided like resourcespage on the website with links
(18:27):
to adoptee Facebook groups, um,like birth parents or searches,
movies, podcasts.
Um, so I hope they can find morecommunities to be part of and
just continue to educatethemselves, um, and just learn
more about China's history andadoption in general.
Judy Oskam (18:45):
I love it, Natalie.
Thank you for the work you'redoing and thank you for, for
providing a resource for all ofus to learn more about these
topics.
Thanks for joining us today.
Thank you.
Natalie Pappas (18:57):
Thank you for having me.
Judy Oskam (18:59):
Thank you for listening to Stories of Change
and Creativity.
Check out the show notes formore information about this
episode.
And remember if you have a storyto tell or know someone who does
reach out to me at judyoskam.comand thanks for listening.
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