February 2, 2025 • 32 mins
Are you navigating your 20s? or know someone who is? Many young adults in their 20s think their life should be carefree and non-stop fun. We've all heard that these should be 'the best years of your life.' But in reality, the decade of your 20s is challenging and often not the happiest time of life.
On this episode I talk with Dr. Meg Jay, a developmental clinical psychologist, and faculty member at the University of Virginia. She's an expert in the crucial challenges young adults face in their 20s regarding mental health, identity, and relationships.
Through valuable insights and personal anecdotes, Dr. Jay emphasizes the importance of using this decade to build identity capital and foster supportive relationships.
Key Topics:
• The significance of the 20s as a crucial developmental period
• Understanding and building identity capital
• Normalizing common mental health challenges in young adulthood
• The importance of relationships and social capital for support
• Emotional maturity and managing anxiety in your 20s
• Debunking the "best years of your life" myth
• Practical advice for navigating this complex decade
Bio:
Meg Jay, PhD, is a developmental clinical psychologist who specializes in twentysomethings. She is the author of The Twentysomething Treatment, The Defining Decade and Supernormal. Her books have been translated into more than a dozen languages and her work has appeared in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review and on NPR, BBC and-- maybe most important for her audience--Tik Tok.
A New York Times profile called Dr. Jay "the patron saint of striving youth" and her TED talk “Why 30 Is Not the New 20” is among the most watched to date. Dr. Jay earned a doctorate in clinical psychology, and in gender studies, from the University of California, Berkeley. She is on faculty at the University of Virginia and maintains a private practice in Charlottesville.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Judy Oskam (00:00):
Judy Oskam.
Welcome back to Stories ofChange and Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam.
This is a podcast about howpeople adapt to change and
embrace creativity.
On this episode, we're tacklingan important topic mental
health, identity and thepressures that young adults are
(00:20):
facing today.
Whether you're in your 20s orknow someone navigating this
phase of life, you're going towant to stick around for this
interview.
Dr Meg Jay is a developmentalclinical psychologist who has
spent more than 25 yearsspecializing in the mental
health and well-being of20-somethings.
(00:41):
She's on the faculty at theUniversity of Virginia.
Dr Jay is the author of the20-Something Treatment A
Revolutionary Remedy for anUncertain Age, a powerful new
book that challenges the currentapproach to young adult mental
health.
This book builds on hergroundbreaking book the Defining
(01:02):
Decade why your Twenties Matterand how to make the most of
them now.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
I really enjoyed the book and Ihad it on audiobook and I loved
that.
What led you to write the book?
I mean, let's just start there.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:22):
Well, we'll start there.
Well, what led me to write thebook was as you could relate to
this is having hundreds of20-something college students
and, you know at the time,dozens, but now hundreds of
20-something clients in therapyand just realizing they were
coming in with very similarconcerns, questions.
(01:42):
I felt like I was giving a lotof them the same answers and I
thought, you know, somebodyneeds to write a book about this
.
I guess it's going to have tobe me.
But really what the book isabout is just what an incredible
developmental sweet spot our20s are.
I think culturally, for thelast several decades we've sort
of seen them as a developmentaldowntime, is just some, you know
(02:03):
, kind of trivialize them to acertain extent.
But you know, my books areabout taking 20 something
seriously.
Judy Oskam (02:11):
Well, and you say in the book that you really wrote
this for them and to them.
Dr. Meg Jay (02:17):
Absolutely.
Parents do love it andadministrator, college
administrators love it.
But it is 100 percent writtenfor 20 somethings because that's
who I work with every day.
They're my, they're myconversation partners, they're
my audience and fortunately it'sbeen really rewarding to see.
I wasn't surprised, but I thinkother people were surprised to
(02:37):
find out how popular it is.
With 20 somethings.
I think that's part of thetrivialization that many people
thought oh well, they don't care, they're not going to read it.
No, 20-something wants help andyou know I had a big, long list
of people waiting to get intomy office or standing outside of
my door during office hours andI knew that college students
(02:58):
and 20-somethings are lookingfor good information.
Judy Oskam (03:02):
Well, some of what you have included in the book
too, and you explain how,developmentally, we go through
school and we were giving suchclear directives and I have said
this for years and I tell myfaculty K through 12, they are
in a box.
And then they come to collegeand we say get creative, think
outside the box, and that's whythey're asking us for direction
(03:25):
and guidance.
Dr. Meg Jay (03:26):
Right, absolutely.
Yes, I'm actually thinkingabout Judy, you may appreciate
this of my next book beingfocused specifically on college,
because even though I really,you know, delved into the 20s,
which does include and doesn'tinclude college in both the
defining decade and the20-something treatment, as you
well know, college is its ownthing and it's a huge change,
(03:52):
going from the structure of highschool to the lack of structure
in college, and I think we'releaving it too much to college
students to sort of figure itout, while they're paying a lot
of money and trying to learn andgrow, and so, anyway, I would
like to do something about that.
I think that's a really sweetspot trying to learn and grow,
and so, anyway, I would like todo something about that.
Judy Oskam (04:06):
I think that's a that's a really sweet spot, as
you say too.
And I think one thing you knowyou talk about the idea that
many young adults, theyunderestimate the significance
of the 20s.
And again we've heard it in themedia oh, don't, don't worry
about anything till you hit your30s and enjoy your 20s, live
while you can, and COVID didn'thelp with that.
(04:29):
But I mean, why is there thisperception that the 20s are sort
of throwaway years?
Dr. Meg Jay (04:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's changing, I think
partly because of the definingdecade, but I think where it
came from is adult milestoneswere pushed upwards for a
variety of reasons we probablydon't have time to get into, but
that are probably prettyobvious to most people.
But you know, whereas in the1970s, you know 50 years ago,
your average 21 year old wasmarried and had a baby and a
(05:01):
house and a job and you know so,adulthood had begun, now those
milestones happen closer to 30than 20.
So that led people to kind offeel like, oh well, your 20s
don't matter, it's just goofaround time, and then you really
get serious at 30 and theneverything will sort, except
what you know generations, earlygenerations, to sort of
(05:23):
experiment with this, includingmy generation Gen Xers found out
is, if you start everything at30, you might not get everything
you want in time and you'remissing out on a lot of really
amazing opportunities.
to get in front of all thesemilestones, so that you're
choosing partners better thanyou might have.
You're finding jobs that suityou more.
(05:44):
You're figuring out who you arebefore you make all these big
decisions.
There are a lot of advantagesto the milestones being closer
to 30 than 20.
But doing something later isn'tautomatically better of doing
the same as doing somethingbetter.
It depends on what you do withthe 20 something years.
Judy Oskam (06:02):
Well, talk a little bit about about your story,
because you give the example inthe book about what you did
right after school and then howthat led to conversations and
job interviews and things likethat.
Talk about that a little bit.
Dr. Meg Jay (06:15):
Yeah, I think a lot of times people hear about my
work and they misperceive thatI'm saying, oh, you've got to go
to law school the day after yougraduate from college and if
you don't have a briefcase inyour hand, you're wasting your
time.
And it's really not what thedefining decade is about at all.
It's about how your 20s are anopportunity to do some things
that you're never going to havethe chance maybe to do again,
(06:38):
and so to make sure you're usingthat time wisely.
So my first job after collegewas working as an outward bound
instructor and for people whodon't know what that is, that's
outdoor education.
So I was taking teenagers downrivers and up mountains and
climbing cliffs and all thisstuff, and that's probably not
(06:58):
the most ambitious thing I couldhave done right after
graduating from UBA and, believeme, my family was wringing
their hands about it.
But I was burned out fromcollege, as many people are.
I thought I probably wanted togo to graduate school.
But I needed to grow up some.
I needed to experience life andin my field, in psychology,
they want you to have some lifeexperience and not just be a 22
(07:20):
year old babe in the woodstrying to do therapy with people
.
So anyway, this is what I did.
I thought I would do it for oneor two years, I did it for five
.
So for five years I didn't havean apartment, I lived outdoors,
I worked outdoors and then whenI, you know, pivoted to go to
grad school, I was concerned aswere, I think, other people that
(07:43):
like, oh no, I won't berelevant anymore.
But actually when I would goaround to schools for interviews
, everybody was sort ofclamoring to interview the
outward bound girl and, you know, people sort of saw the value
in that.
So in the book I talk aboutidentity capital.
As you know what I tell collegestudents when they're
(08:03):
graduating Don't worry aboutwhat you're going to be forever,
don't worry about.
You know, this first job is notyour last job.
Your job is just to go out andearn as much identity capital as
you can, just sort of collectyour own personal assets.
No one can ever take those awayfrom you.
And then you use them to getthe next good thing, which has
even more identity capital, andthe next good thing and the next
(08:26):
good thing.
And then that's how it buildsover time.
Judy Oskam (08:29):
I love how you explain that, because that
really makes it very, I guess,take some of the air out of the
pressure that I think that agegroup feels about.
What am I going to do next?
Dr. Meg Jay (08:45):
and what's next.
Judy Oskam (08:46):
And we ask kids when they're little what do you want
to be when you grow up?
Well, who knows right?
Dr. Meg Jay (08:53):
Right, and I think the important thing is that not
only do three-year-olds not know, but 23-year-olds don't know,
not because they don't knowstuff, but because most of them
will wind up in jobs or fieldsor areas of specialty that they
never knew existed when theywere 23.
So we're asking, you know,we're asking someone to answer a
(09:16):
question they can't answer.
So, you know, I think it'sfruitful to have a direction of
you know.
I knew like, hey, I thinkpsychology is my lane and I'm
going to get in that lane andI'm going to do some things.
I'm going to figure out youknow which way within that I
want to go.
I mean, when I thought aboutgoing back to grad school or
started grad school, I had neverthought, oh, I know what I'll
(09:37):
do.
I'll be a clinical psychologistwho specializes in 20
somethings and writes books forpeople.
That wasn't a thing.
So, you know, I just had tosort of get in the lane I
thought suited and then see whatI learned along the way.
Judy Oskam (09:53):
Well, and part of that is changing the mindset of
that individual to think broaderand to think have that growth
mindset right and to think alittle more open.
And I love how you kind of talka little bit more about what
identity capital is and howsomeone can really kind of
maximize that and name it andclaim it, if you will.
Dr. Meg Jay (10:15):
Yeah, well, I like the name it and claim it piece,
because what I tell you know,college students or 20
somethings when we start thatconversation, is you already
have more identity capital,exactly Realize.
Judy Oskam (10:27):
They always do.
They're so interesting.
Dr. Meg Jay (10:30):
They'll say, well, I don't have any, it's not
possible.
What have you been doing forthe last two, three, five, 10
years?
Tell me about your major.
Tell me about your jobs.
Tell me about your internships.
Tell me about your travels,your hobbies, something cool
about you, something?
What would your friends say?
Your identity?
Capital is that it's really justour collection of, usually,
(10:53):
experiences, but sometimes itcan be just personal assets of
hey, I'm a greatconversationalist or whatever
the case may be.
That kind of make us who we are, that make us different from
our best friend or our brotheror sister or classmate.
There's a great quote.
It's I'm going to forget theguy's name, but he's actually a
(11:17):
UVA grad.
He's the co-founder of Reddit,his name is Read Something, and
I can't think of it right now.
But he said you aren't who youare, you are what you do and and
I there's so much truth to that, especially when you're young.
I think a lot of young peopleare trying to figure out who am
I.
Like it's this, like it's, youknow, hidden under a rock
(11:41):
somewhere, rather than well, youare.
Whatever you've chosen to spendyour time doing that.
That's how people are going tounderstand you.
Judy Oskam (11:49):
Yeah, yeah.
And with that goesrelationships right and who we
connect with and how we buildour relationships.
How important is that in the20s?
Dr. Meg Jay (11:59):
So important.
I mean relationships.
You know it's funny people comeinto my office because they're
very stressed about work, butthen they mostly just want to
talk about relationships.
Of course it's all about thepeople, right?
But you know there's there'sprobably three key relationships
in your 20s and I don't knowwhich one you want to focus on,
so I'll just throw it out thereOne of course, is like who
(12:22):
you're dating or who you love orpartner.
You know that love interest,romantic piece One is
friendships.
Friendships are so important inyour 20s because, as I
mentioned, most people aren'tpartnering up until almost 30 or
after 30.
So your 20s are pretty lonely.
That's when our friends youknow we really need our friends
(12:44):
the most.
And then the third kind ofrelationship really relates to
identity capital and it's what'scalled weak ties, where they're
the people.
They're not our best friends,they're not people we're dating.
But there are these people thatwe used to know, that we kind
of know that our friends knowthat we've lost touch with.
That might help us get the nextthing that we want.
(13:05):
So they know about the newapartments, the new jobs, the
new ideas, the new opportunities.
And so I think a big skill for20-somethings is figuring out
how do I reach out to thesepeople, how do I even think
about who these people are?
How do I get up the courage tosee if they can help?
Judy Oskam (13:24):
Well, and I love that, and we we call that a lot
of networking as well.
But who do you know and what'swho?
Who knows somebody else who canhelp you?
But I like the.
The stronger word maybe is tiesand weak ties.
Dr. Meg Jay (13:38):
Well, I'll tell you a little secret, Judy, is that
I specifically called it thatbecause 20-somethings hate the
word networking.
Judy Oskam (13:46):
I know it's too corporate, right it's too
corporate.
Dr. Meg Jay (13:50):
They think it means nepotism, they think it's, you
know, like fake.
And you know I don't have anetwork, but everybody has weak
ties and so you know, I think,when you explain it to people,
that what we're really talkingabout is crowdsourcing, you know
we're talking about like hey,you know, I think, when you
explain it to people that whatwe're really talking about is
crowdsourcing, you know we'retalking about like hey, you've
got a problem, take it to thecrowd.
(14:11):
You have a crowd.
And so who is the friend of thefriend of the friend who is in
the field that you want to getinto?
Reach out to them and ask likehey, how'd you do it?
Can I buy you a coffee?
That's really working.
The strength of weak ties morethan it's technically networking
, because they're not really inyour network?
Judy Oskam (14:30):
Yeah right, and they're already doing that
through social media anyway,through Instagram or, you know,
not Facebook anymore, but Twitchor whatever's the next thing.
So, oh, that's great, that'sgreat.
Well, and you know, one of oneof the messages in your book is
the impact of career choices andthe work experiences, and that
(14:51):
goes back to the social capital,I guess identity capital, right
.
So how does social capital playin that with identity capital?
And that might be kind of theweak tie deal.
Dr. Meg Jay (15:06):
Yeah, I mean it's just, I think, you know, when I
was moving my way through myjobs I remember people said,
would say similar to what yousaid many ago it's all about the
relationships.
It's all about the relationshipsand that just always sounded
kind of the relationships andthat just always sounded kind of
(15:28):
abstract to me.
But I guess the older that I'vegotten, the more I realize it
is all about who you know, and Idon't mean who you know in a
privileged sort of way, as muchas who you've met and who you've
bothered to know, who you know,who you've tried to create
relationships with.
So you know, I really try toget college students started on
this in college of go meet yourprofessors, go to office hours,
(15:52):
do some research.
I don't care if you don't wantto go to graduate school and you
don't really need research, youneed to at least have
relationships with professors,with deans, with administrators.
All you have to do is knock ontheir door and go to their
office hour, and so for manyyoung adults they only talk to
people their own age and sothey're not used to talking to
(16:13):
people who are five or 10 or 15years older and they don't
always have to be a lot older.
I think you know more collegestudents could benefit from.
You know what you know as andwhat I know as near peers.
So it's not somebody exactlywhere you are, but somebody like
two or three or five yearsahead.
It's like, oh, they're not thatfar off from what I'm doing.
(16:37):
Maybe I could ask them how didthey do it?
What should I do?
What's?
Judy Oskam (16:42):
my next step.
Well, and I know that I knowsome 20 somethings personally
who are just sort of feelinglost and, I think, connecting
and realizing that they're notalone in this- Absolutely, isn't
that what a lot of your storiesin your book illustrate that it
is.
Dr. Meg Jay (17:01):
I would say a big part of what I do is normalizing
.
You know, I'm a developmentalclinical psychologist and the
clinical psychology piece issort of the people think of that
as like the mental health piece, the DSM, the sort of what's
wrong with you piece, but it'sthe well-being piece, right,
right, right.
But the developmental piece isall the all the normal stuff of
(17:25):
like, hey, it's hard to be young, it's you know, it's hard to
deal with uncertainty.
The brain doesn't like that.
It makes people feel anxious.
Everyone you know it's normalto you know, have sort of a
negative slant about the future.
So I would say I spend a lotmore time on the developmental
end of things, about how normaland common all of this is, and
(17:46):
this is true in my office.
I see a lot more that's justreally developmentally normal,
common to be expected willimprove than I actually spend
with 20 somethings who have, youknow, serious mental health
problems that will never getbetter.
So that's, that's one of thegreat things about my job.
(18:06):
Is that?
Um, it's great, right, peopleare trending upward and all I
have to do is help.
Judy Oskam (18:12):
Well, and again, we often don't realize, uh, what
all the good things that we'redoing, you know, we don't give
ourselves credit, I think, andat that age they don't even know
what they don't know you know,and that's.
What do you think of the termadulting, cause that's something
that you know that age group isusing a lot.
I hate adulting and I don'twant to be an adult.
(18:34):
Right, right, right.
What's your take on that?
Dr. Meg Jay (18:37):
I don't know.
I actually heard that thatpeople don't like that word
anymore.
So it.
I don't spend a lot of timethinking about.
You know, actually I was justwriting something earlier today
about the university and youknow, I think you know this, but
(18:59):
college students today wouldnot know this, that you know, up
until the 70s college studentswere minors, that that, and they
were basically like wards oftheir schools and schools made
the curfew and schools made thedress codes and schools made the
rules and like they were notlegal adults.
(19:21):
And that changed around, like1971, 1972, and so you know, we
keep.
And then meanwhile all theadult milestones moved from, you
know, the early 20s to now morelike the 30s.
So there's always these shiftingnotions of like when is someone
adult?
When are they not an adult?
What does that mean?
(19:41):
What do they do?
So all I know, judy, is thatI'm generally trying to help
people, you know, grab the batonof their own life, that up till
now their parents have carriedit, their schools have carried
it.
That's normal, and right aboutnow somebody's handing it to you
, and so I'm trying to help youfigure out like, okay, what do I
(20:02):
want to do with this?
But that's a big shift and youknow it's not the you know, 60s
anymore.
Schools aren't setting yourcurfew, they're not making you
go to class, they're not tellingyou what to wear, they're not
telling you how to spend yourtime, and so that's a lot for 18
or 20 year olds to suddenlyfigure out how to do after you
(20:22):
know years of living astructured life.
(20:46):
And then when they go throughthe system, whether it's, you
know, the university, community,college, whatever, or they go
straight to the workforce, thenthey're in this world.
That is expecting them to be anadult, right, and to know, and
I, you know, actually I think ofit less about again, adult,
non-adult.
And I, you know, actually Ithink of it less about, again,
adult, non-adult.
I just think people can't knowwhat they haven't done before,
obviously, and so you know,anybody at their first job is
going to get a lot of thingswrong.
They're going to misunderstandhow they're supposed to act or
(21:09):
talk or you know whatever.
And so that's just a normalpart of life is you have to do
that, you have to practice anddo things to get good at them.
Judy Oskam (21:19):
Well, and then you know from your first book, it
led you to the 20 somethingtreatment.
Talk about that and and whatyou're trying to do in that book
.
Dr. Meg Jay (21:29):
Yeah.
So the 20 something treatmentis is specifically young adult
mental health, and when I wrotethe defining decade I had a
mental health chapter in there,but this will tell you how much
things have changed is.
My editor was like don't putthat in there, Nobody wants to
talk about that.
You know that's another bookand you know he was right that
nobody did want to talk aboutthat at the time.
(21:50):
And now everybody wants to talkabout it and some of those
conversations are better thanothers and so I thought, okay,
well, it is another book.
Now people do want to talkabout it.
So it's an entire bookdedicated to young adult mental
health and similar to thedefining decade.
A lot of the messages are verynormalizing.
I do a lot of.
You know research and storiesaround how common it is to feel
(22:15):
depressed, to feel anxious, tofeel overwhelmed, to feel
stressed in your 20s, but thatdoesn't mean you're going to be
that way forever.
I change, hopefully, orchallenge, the myth that your
20s are going to be the bestyears of your life and let
people know that empirically,from a mental health perspective
, I'm sorry to say, they tend tobe some of the worst years of
(22:37):
your life because they're souncertain and people don't like
that and it makes people feelanxious and stressed.
But the good news is that your20s really shouldn't be the best
years of your life, that ifyour 20s turn out to be the best
years of your life, somethinghas gone terribly wrong.
Life should, and generally does, get better as you go.
(23:00):
So you know the book is meantto be empowering, normalizing,
relieving, and but it's it'svery specifically about 20,
something mental health?
Judy Oskam (23:09):
Yeah, and some of the stories you weave in there
are stories where people willcome in your office and just
share their deepest challenges,right?
Absolutely and then you kind ofwork it through like you said
normalize that.
Dr. Meg Jay (23:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think what many peoplewill see reading it is oh my
gosh, she's talking about me orI have that too.
It's most college students and20 somethings think they're a
lot more screwed up than theyactually are, and so I think
when they see the stories ofother people they go, oh my gosh
(23:49):
, I felt that way, I thoughtthat, and so it's really trying
to kind of change the narrativeon what it means to struggle in
your 20s and what that means ordoesn't mean for your future.
Judy Oskam (24:02):
I'm so glad you brought up the point that you're
you know, your 20s, shouldn't?
You shouldn't top out in your20s.
And please don't.
We all know those people thatthat that would maxed out in
high school you know like yes,peak in high school, peak in
high school.
You don't want to peak in highschool, but you don't want to
(24:22):
peak in your 20s either.
So I think that's, but I thinkwe hear a lot we see in movies
about right 20s are just your.
Be wild, and crazy and do allthis stuff and enjoy your life,
because you hit 30 and the doorcloses Right right, and it's so
different.
Dr. Meg Jay (24:40):
The reality is in your 20s you will I mean not to
be a downer here, but you'llprobably have the worst jobs
you'll ever have Of course tirethe first.
(25:12):
You know major breakup is hugeNumber one precursor for
depression in the 20s.
So you're there's justabsolutely no evidence to
suggest that your 20s are goingto be the best years of your
life.
I mean, I hope people have somefun, I hope they enjoy
themselves, but the reality isis that all the data show that
(25:32):
people become happier, healthierand more successful as they age
.
And I have never once met andI've been doing this now for 25
years a former client studentperson who said you know, once
they got under 30s, I wish Icould go back to my 20s.
Nobody wants, nobody feels thatway.
So this idea that these aregoing to be the best years, the
(25:54):
happiest years of your life justwrong.
Judy Oskam (25:58):
Should we think of them almost like?
Personally, I think of middleschool.
It's like middle school it'slike was terrible.
Dr. Meg Jay (26:04):
It's kind of becoming that.
I think it is becoming that andthat's okay.
You know, and not every decadeof your life can be amazing, and
you know, the 20s has itscharms, like every decade has.
I remember when I, you know,had kids, somebody told me you
know, every stage is cool in itsown way, and this was when they
(26:26):
were little.
They were adorable, right, andyou're thinking, well, what
could be cuter than this,although it is rough having
toddlers, and so everythinghas's.
You're thinking, well, whatcould be cuter than this,
although it is rough havingtoddlers, and so everything has
its, you know, charms and itsdetractions, and that's true
with every decade of life.
Judy Oskam (26:42):
Well, that's, that's great, and you know, you, you,
you really talk about emotionalmaturity, and is that, is that
tied with the same term,developmental?
Is that what you mean with that?
Dr. Meg Jay (26:56):
Yeah, it's just I talk a lot in the 20-something
treatment about that.
It's normal to have a lot ofhighs and lows, that
20-somethings in general havemore negative thoughts and
feelings than older adults.
For all the reasons we justsaid they have more to feel
negative about.
They also have less sort ofinternal ability to look at that
(27:18):
and say, oh, you know what I'vebeen here before, this is going
to be okay.
By the time you're in your 30sor your 40s something bad can
happen and your brainimmediately can draw on the
experience of like, okay, I'vebeen called to my boss's office
before and it's usually not whatI think it is, or I've gotten
through a breakup before, orwhatever.
(27:39):
In your 20s your brain doesn'thave that kind of experience to
grow up to draw on.
So everything is catastrophic,everything is impossible,
everything is the worst casescenario, normal, normal, normal
.
What you kind of have to do ishelp 20 somethings like weather,
that that sort ofcatastrophizing storm that's
(28:00):
going on in their brains, whilethey gain the experience that
will ultimately teach theirbrains that very few things in
life are as bad as you thinkthey are.
Judy Oskam (28:09):
Well, and we do that with young kids, you know we
help them learn and grow and weteach them how to do things.
But when they and I think partof it is when they go off to
college for those of you youknow, listeners who are in
college or something they're ontheir own and they're trying to
make it on their own.
So maybe, maybe parents think,oh well, they're doing fine, so
(28:32):
they're not really doing fine.
So they're not really doingfine, so they're coming to your
office and talking.
Dr. Meg Jay (28:36):
That's what they're doing, right right.
And many parents out there arethinking thank you, I so
appreciate it.
Somebody said you are doing theLord's work.
You are, I'm telling you, andI'm on a campus too.
Well, you are too, judy.
Judy Oskam (28:50):
Yes, absolutely yeah well, I'm on a campus too, and
there have been times when wehave walked people into the
counselor's office AbsolutelyWanted to make sure they get
someone to talk to.
But it is fascinating when youtalk to 20-somethings and you
just kind of, if there's a wayand you might provide some
(29:11):
guidance here on what can we doto help these students and these
20-somethings see that there isa path forward.
I always like to you know youstart where you are, but how can
we do that?
Dr. Meg Jay (29:26):
Yeah, I mean my very.
You know, I'm really not tryingto be a bookseller here.
Judy Oskam (29:31):
You know, my answer is please, please, read the
books, because and reading bothof them is key, because that
first one, defining Decade, Iwas just telling a colleague of
mine.
We teach a class at Texas Statecalled Career Professionalism
and we do a lot of.
(29:51):
We do some strengths buildingin there and we do some.
How do you build your brand?
But it's a lot of some of thisand I just told my colleague,
jenny, about this and becauseunderstanding more of this.
Luckily she has kids the sameage as I do.
I've got a 26 year old and a 24year old, so I'm right there
with you.
(30:13):
I see it but how, how else?
What else can we do to kind ofhelp them realize that we're all
in this together?
Dr. Meg Jay (30:21):
Yeah, um, I mean, you know so, yeah.
So I say read the books, not tobenefit me as much as that.
It it's truly everything that Ihave learned doing this for 25
years and you know there's onlyso many people can make it to my
office or can afford to seesomeone like me.
(30:41):
And I'm really trying to makethis so that anybody with 15
bucks or a library card can haveall the information that
someone with more resourcesmight have, information that
someone with more resourcesmight have.
You know, the other thing istalk to your friends that
sometimes I'll have clients sayeverybody else is blah, blah,
blah, everybody else is this,that and the other thing.
(31:03):
And I'll say, well, have youasked them?
Because I don't, that's notwhat I'm hearing from everybody
else.
And so you know, to sort of beable to say to your friends like
, hey, I'm really strugglingwith my job, are you?
And so because you know,frankly, I don't think that the
cure for young adult mentalhealth is for everyone to have a
(31:24):
therapist.
That's not sustainable, it'snot possible, it's not scalable.
You know, if anything, I try tohelp 20 somethings have better
relationships with friends orfamily or mentors.
So I guess my short answerwould be read the books or talk
to people, and they don't haveto be therapists, they just need
to be people who care about you.
(31:46):
And they probably have some goodadvice.
Judy Oskam (31:48):
That's great.
That's great.
Well, I want to thank you forsharing your time and expertise.
My pleasure Again.
It's just such a reallyvaluable piece of research that
you've done here to really helpus understand, and I think all
college professors need to readthis.
Dr. Meg Jay (32:09):
I agree.
Judy Oskam (32:11):
It's fantastic, but anyway, I just want to thank you
for your time.
Dr. Meg Jay (32:15):
I appreciate that, and I appreciate what you do as
well.
So thank you so much.
Judy Oskam (32:21):
And thank all of you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, please take a
moment to rate and review thepodcast.
It really helps us reach morelisteners who might learn
something.
Don't forget to check out theshow notes for links to Dr J's
books and her TED Talk.
Thanks again for listening andremember if you've got a story
(32:41):
to share or know someone whodoes reach out to me at
judyoskam.
com.
Judy Oskam.
Welcome back to Stories ofChange and Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam.
This is a podcast about howpeople adapt to change and
embrace creativity.
On this episode, we're tacklingan important topic mental
health, identity and thepressures that young adults are
(00:20):
facing today.
Whether you're in your 20s orknow someone navigating this
phase of life, you're going towant to stick around for this
interview.
Dr Meg Jay is a developmentalclinical psychologist who has
spent more than 25 yearsspecializing in the mental
health and well-being of20-somethings.
(00:41):
She's on the faculty at theUniversity of Virginia.
Dr Jay is the author of the20-Something Treatment A
Revolutionary Remedy for anUncertain Age, a powerful new
book that challenges the currentapproach to young adult mental
health.
This book builds on hergroundbreaking book the Defining
(01:02):
Decade why your Twenties Matterand how to make the most of
them now.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
I really enjoyed the book and Ihad it on audiobook and I loved
that.
What led you to write the book?
I mean, let's just start there.
Dr. Meg Jay (01:22):
Well, we'll start there.
Well, what led me to write thebook was as you could relate to
this is having hundreds of20-something college students
and, you know at the time,dozens, but now hundreds of
20-something clients in therapyand just realizing they were
coming in with very similarconcerns, questions.
(01:42):
I felt like I was giving a lotof them the same answers and I
thought, you know, somebodyneeds to write a book about this
.
I guess it's going to have tobe me.
But really what the book isabout is just what an incredible
developmental sweet spot our20s are.
I think culturally, for thelast several decades we've sort
of seen them as a developmentaldowntime, is just some, you know
(02:03):
, kind of trivialize them to acertain extent.
But you know, my books areabout taking 20 something
seriously.
Judy Oskam (02:11):
Well, and you say in the book that you really wrote
this for them and to them.
Dr. Meg Jay (02:17):
Absolutely.
Parents do love it andadministrator, college
administrators love it.
But it is 100 percent writtenfor 20 somethings because that's
who I work with every day.
They're my, they're myconversation partners, they're
my audience and fortunately it'sbeen really rewarding to see.
I wasn't surprised, but I thinkother people were surprised to
(02:37):
find out how popular it is.
With 20 somethings.
I think that's part of thetrivialization that many people
thought oh well, they don't care, they're not going to read it.
No, 20-something wants help andyou know I had a big, long list
of people waiting to get intomy office or standing outside of
my door during office hours andI knew that college students
(02:58):
and 20-somethings are lookingfor good information.
Judy Oskam (03:02):
Well, some of what you have included in the book
too, and you explain how,developmentally, we go through
school and we were giving suchclear directives and I have said
this for years and I tell myfaculty K through 12, they are
in a box.
And then they come to collegeand we say get creative, think
outside the box, and that's whythey're asking us for direction
(03:25):
and guidance.
Dr. Meg Jay (03:26):
Right, absolutely.
Yes, I'm actually thinkingabout Judy, you may appreciate
this of my next book beingfocused specifically on college,
because even though I really,you know, delved into the 20s,
which does include and doesn'tinclude college in both the
defining decade and the20-something treatment, as you
well know, college is its ownthing and it's a huge change,
(03:52):
going from the structure of highschool to the lack of structure
in college, and I think we'releaving it too much to college
students to sort of figure itout, while they're paying a lot
of money and trying to learn andgrow, and so, anyway, I would
like to do something about that.
I think that's a really sweetspot trying to learn and grow,
and so, anyway, I would like todo something about that.
Judy Oskam (04:06):
I think that's a that's a really sweet spot, as
you say too.
And I think one thing you knowyou talk about the idea that
many young adults, theyunderestimate the significance
of the 20s.
And again we've heard it in themedia oh, don't, don't worry
about anything till you hit your30s and enjoy your 20s, live
while you can, and COVID didn'thelp with that.
(04:29):
But I mean, why is there thisperception that the 20s are sort
of throwaway years?
Dr. Meg Jay (04:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's changing, I think
partly because of the definingdecade, but I think where it
came from is adult milestoneswere pushed upwards for a
variety of reasons we probablydon't have time to get into, but
that are probably prettyobvious to most people.
But you know, whereas in the1970s, you know 50 years ago,
your average 21 year old wasmarried and had a baby and a
(05:01):
house and a job and you know so,adulthood had begun, now those
milestones happen closer to 30than 20.
So that led people to kind offeel like, oh well, your 20s
don't matter, it's just goofaround time, and then you really
get serious at 30 and theneverything will sort, except
what you know generations, earlygenerations, to sort of
(05:23):
experiment with this, includingmy generation Gen Xers found out
is, if you start everything at30, you might not get everything
you want in time and you'remissing out on a lot of really
amazing opportunities.
to get in front of all thesemilestones, so that you're
choosing partners better thanyou might have.
You're finding jobs that suityou more.
(05:44):
You're figuring out who you arebefore you make all these big
decisions.
There are a lot of advantagesto the milestones being closer
to 30 than 20.
But doing something later isn'tautomatically better of doing
the same as doing somethingbetter.
It depends on what you do withthe 20 something years.
Judy Oskam (06:02):
Well, talk a little bit about about your story,
because you give the example inthe book about what you did
right after school and then howthat led to conversations and
job interviews and things likethat.
Talk about that a little bit.
Dr. Meg Jay (06:15):
Yeah, I think a lot of times people hear about my
work and they misperceive thatI'm saying, oh, you've got to go
to law school the day after yougraduate from college and if
you don't have a briefcase inyour hand, you're wasting your
time.
And it's really not what thedefining decade is about at all.
It's about how your 20s are anopportunity to do some things
that you're never going to havethe chance maybe to do again,
(06:38):
and so to make sure you're usingthat time wisely.
So my first job after collegewas working as an outward bound
instructor and for people whodon't know what that is, that's
outdoor education.
So I was taking teenagers downrivers and up mountains and
climbing cliffs and all thisstuff, and that's probably not
(06:58):
the most ambitious thing I couldhave done right after
graduating from UBA and, believeme, my family was wringing
their hands about it.
But I was burned out fromcollege, as many people are.
I thought I probably wanted togo to graduate school.
But I needed to grow up some.
I needed to experience life andin my field, in psychology,
they want you to have some lifeexperience and not just be a 22
(07:20):
year old babe in the woodstrying to do therapy with people
.
So anyway, this is what I did.
I thought I would do it for oneor two years, I did it for five
.
So for five years I didn't havean apartment, I lived outdoors,
I worked outdoors and then whenI, you know, pivoted to go to
grad school, I was concerned aswere, I think, other people that
(07:43):
like, oh no, I won't berelevant anymore.
But actually when I would goaround to schools for interviews
, everybody was sort ofclamoring to interview the
outward bound girl and, you know, people sort of saw the value
in that.
So in the book I talk aboutidentity capital.
As you know what I tell collegestudents when they're
(08:03):
graduating Don't worry aboutwhat you're going to be forever,
don't worry about.
You know, this first job is notyour last job.
Your job is just to go out andearn as much identity capital as
you can, just sort of collectyour own personal assets.
No one can ever take those awayfrom you.
And then you use them to getthe next good thing, which has
even more identity capital, andthe next good thing and the next
(08:26):
good thing.
And then that's how it buildsover time.
Judy Oskam (08:29):
I love how you explain that, because that
really makes it very, I guess,take some of the air out of the
pressure that I think that agegroup feels about.
What am I going to do next?
Dr. Meg Jay (08:45):
and what's next.
Judy Oskam (08:46):
And we ask kids when they're little what do you want
to be when you grow up?
Well, who knows right?
Dr. Meg Jay (08:53):
Right, and I think the important thing is that not
only do three-year-olds not know, but 23-year-olds don't know,
not because they don't knowstuff, but because most of them
will wind up in jobs or fieldsor areas of specialty that they
never knew existed when theywere 23.
So we're asking, you know,we're asking someone to answer a
(09:16):
question they can't answer.
So, you know, I think it'sfruitful to have a direction of
you know.
I knew like, hey, I thinkpsychology is my lane and I'm
going to get in that lane andI'm going to do some things.
I'm going to figure out youknow which way within that I
want to go.
I mean, when I thought aboutgoing back to grad school or
started grad school, I had neverthought, oh, I know what I'll
(09:37):
do.
I'll be a clinical psychologistwho specializes in 20
somethings and writes books forpeople.
That wasn't a thing.
So, you know, I just had tosort of get in the lane I
thought suited and then see whatI learned along the way.
Judy Oskam (09:53):
Well, and part of that is changing the mindset of
that individual to think broaderand to think have that growth
mindset right and to think alittle more open.
And I love how you kind of talka little bit more about what
identity capital is and howsomeone can really kind of
maximize that and name it andclaim it, if you will.
Dr. Meg Jay (10:15):
Yeah, well, I like the name it and claim it piece,
because what I tell you know,college students or 20
somethings when we start thatconversation, is you already
have more identity capital,exactly Realize.
Judy Oskam (10:27):
They always do.
They're so interesting.
Dr. Meg Jay (10:30):
They'll say, well, I don't have any, it's not
possible.
What have you been doing forthe last two, three, five, 10
years?
Tell me about your major.
Tell me about your jobs.
Tell me about your internships.
Tell me about your travels,your hobbies, something cool
about you, something?
What would your friends say?
Your identity?
Capital is that it's really justour collection of, usually,
(10:53):
experiences, but sometimes itcan be just personal assets of
hey, I'm a greatconversationalist or whatever
the case may be.
That kind of make us who we are, that make us different from
our best friend or our brotheror sister or classmate.
There's a great quote.
It's I'm going to forget theguy's name, but he's actually a
(11:17):
UVA grad.
He's the co-founder of Reddit,his name is Read Something, and
I can't think of it right now.
But he said you aren't who youare, you are what you do and and
I there's so much truth to that, especially when you're young.
I think a lot of young peopleare trying to figure out who am
I.
Like it's this, like it's, youknow, hidden under a rock
(11:41):
somewhere, rather than well, youare.
Whatever you've chosen to spendyour time doing that.
That's how people are going tounderstand you.
Judy Oskam (11:49):
Yeah, yeah.
And with that goesrelationships right and who we
connect with and how we buildour relationships.
How important is that in the20s?
Dr. Meg Jay (11:59):
So important.
I mean relationships.
You know it's funny people comeinto my office because they're
very stressed about work, butthen they mostly just want to
talk about relationships.
Of course it's all about thepeople, right?
But you know there's there'sprobably three key relationships
in your 20s and I don't knowwhich one you want to focus on,
so I'll just throw it out thereOne of course, is like who
(12:22):
you're dating or who you love orpartner.
You know that love interest,romantic piece One is
friendships.
Friendships are so important inyour 20s because, as I
mentioned, most people aren'tpartnering up until almost 30 or
after 30.
So your 20s are pretty lonely.
That's when our friends youknow we really need our friends
(12:44):
the most.
And then the third kind ofrelationship really relates to
identity capital and it's what'scalled weak ties, where they're
the people.
They're not our best friends,they're not people we're dating.
But there are these people thatwe used to know, that we kind
of know that our friends knowthat we've lost touch with.
That might help us get the nextthing that we want.
(13:05):
So they know about the newapartments, the new jobs, the
new ideas, the new opportunities.
And so I think a big skill for20-somethings is figuring out
how do I reach out to thesepeople, how do I even think
about who these people are?
How do I get up the courage tosee if they can help?
Judy Oskam (13:24):
Well, and I love that, and we we call that a lot
of networking as well.
But who do you know and what'swho?
Who knows somebody else who canhelp you?
But I like the.
The stronger word maybe is tiesand weak ties.
Dr. Meg Jay (13:38):
Well, I'll tell you a little secret, Judy, is that
I specifically called it thatbecause 20-somethings hate the
word networking.
Judy Oskam (13:46):
I know it's too corporate, right it's too
corporate.
Dr. Meg Jay (13:50):
They think it means nepotism, they think it's, you
know, like fake.
And you know I don't have anetwork, but everybody has weak
ties and so you know, I think,when you explain it to people,
that what we're really talkingabout is crowdsourcing, you know
we're talking about like hey,you know, I think, when you
explain it to people that whatwe're really talking about is
crowdsourcing, you know we'retalking about like hey, you've
got a problem, take it to thecrowd.
(14:11):
You have a crowd.
And so who is the friend of thefriend of the friend who is in
the field that you want to getinto?
Reach out to them and ask likehey, how'd you do it?
Can I buy you a coffee?
That's really working.
The strength of weak ties morethan it's technically networking
, because they're not really inyour network?
Judy Oskam (14:30):
Yeah right, and they're already doing that
through social media anyway,through Instagram or, you know,
not Facebook anymore, but Twitchor whatever's the next thing.
So, oh, that's great, that'sgreat.
Well, and you know, one of oneof the messages in your book is
the impact of career choices andthe work experiences, and that
(14:51):
goes back to the social capital,I guess identity capital, right
.
So how does social capital playin that with identity capital?
And that might be kind of theweak tie deal.
Dr. Meg Jay (15:06):
Yeah, I mean it's just, I think, you know, when I
was moving my way through myjobs I remember people said,
would say similar to what yousaid many ago it's all about the
relationships.
It's all about the relationshipsand that just always sounded
kind of the relationships andthat just always sounded kind of
(15:28):
abstract to me.
But I guess the older that I'vegotten, the more I realize it
is all about who you know, and Idon't mean who you know in a
privileged sort of way, as muchas who you've met and who you've
bothered to know, who you know,who you've tried to create
relationships with.
So you know, I really try toget college students started on
this in college of go meet yourprofessors, go to office hours,
(15:52):
do some research.
I don't care if you don't wantto go to graduate school and you
don't really need research, youneed to at least have
relationships with professors,with deans, with administrators.
All you have to do is knock ontheir door and go to their
office hour, and so for manyyoung adults they only talk to
people their own age and sothey're not used to talking to
(16:13):
people who are five or 10 or 15years older and they don't
always have to be a lot older.
I think you know more collegestudents could benefit from.
You know what you know as andwhat I know as near peers.
So it's not somebody exactlywhere you are, but somebody like
two or three or five yearsahead.
It's like, oh, they're not thatfar off from what I'm doing.
(16:37):
Maybe I could ask them how didthey do it?
What should I do?
What's?
Judy Oskam (16:42):
my next step.
Well, and I know that I knowsome 20 somethings personally
who are just sort of feelinglost and, I think, connecting
and realizing that they're notalone in this- Absolutely, isn't
that what a lot of your storiesin your book illustrate that it
is.
Dr. Meg Jay (17:01):
I would say a big part of what I do is normalizing
.
You know, I'm a developmentalclinical psychologist and the
clinical psychology piece issort of the people think of that
as like the mental health piece, the DSM, the sort of what's
wrong with you piece, but it'sthe well-being piece, right,
right, right.
But the developmental piece isall the all the normal stuff of
(17:25):
like, hey, it's hard to be young, it's you know, it's hard to
deal with uncertainty.
The brain doesn't like that.
It makes people feel anxious.
Everyone you know it's normalto you know, have sort of a
negative slant about the future.
So I would say I spend a lotmore time on the developmental
end of things, about how normaland common all of this is, and
(17:46):
this is true in my office.
I see a lot more that's justreally developmentally normal,
common to be expected willimprove than I actually spend
with 20 somethings who have, youknow, serious mental health
problems that will never getbetter.
So that's, that's one of thegreat things about my job.
(18:06):
Is that?
Um, it's great, right, peopleare trending upward and all I
have to do is help.
Judy Oskam (18:12):
Well, and again, we often don't realize, uh, what
all the good things that we'redoing, you know, we don't give
ourselves credit, I think, andat that age they don't even know
what they don't know you know,and that's.
What do you think of the termadulting, cause that's something
that you know that age group isusing a lot.
I hate adulting and I don'twant to be an adult.
(18:34):
Right, right, right.
What's your take on that?
Dr. Meg Jay (18:37):
I don't know.
I actually heard that thatpeople don't like that word
anymore.
So it.
I don't spend a lot of timethinking about.
You know, actually I was justwriting something earlier today
about the university and youknow, I think you know this, but
(18:59):
college students today wouldnot know this, that you know, up
until the 70s college studentswere minors, that that, and they
were basically like wards oftheir schools and schools made
the curfew and schools made thedress codes and schools made the
rules and like they were notlegal adults.
(19:21):
And that changed around, like1971, 1972, and so you know, we
keep.
And then meanwhile all theadult milestones moved from, you
know, the early 20s to now morelike the 30s.
So there's always these shiftingnotions of like when is someone
adult?
When are they not an adult?
What does that mean?
(19:41):
What do they do?
So all I know, judy, is thatI'm generally trying to help
people, you know, grab the batonof their own life, that up till
now their parents have carriedit, their schools have carried
it.
That's normal, and right aboutnow somebody's handing it to you
, and so I'm trying to help youfigure out like, okay, what do I
(20:02):
want to do with this?
But that's a big shift and youknow it's not the you know, 60s
anymore.
Schools aren't setting yourcurfew, they're not making you
go to class, they're not tellingyou what to wear, they're not
telling you how to spend yourtime, and so that's a lot for 18
or 20 year olds to suddenlyfigure out how to do after you
(20:22):
know years of living astructured life.
(20:46):
And then when they go throughthe system, whether it's, you
know, the university, community,college, whatever, or they go
straight to the workforce, thenthey're in this world.
That is expecting them to be anadult, right, and to know, and
I, you know, actually I think ofit less about again, adult,
non-adult.
And I, you know, actually Ithink of it less about, again,
adult, non-adult.
I just think people can't knowwhat they haven't done before,
obviously, and so you know,anybody at their first job is
going to get a lot of thingswrong.
They're going to misunderstandhow they're supposed to act or
(21:09):
talk or you know whatever.
And so that's just a normalpart of life is you have to do
that, you have to practice anddo things to get good at them.
Judy Oskam (21:19):
Well, and then you know from your first book, it
led you to the 20 somethingtreatment.
Talk about that and and whatyou're trying to do in that book
.
Dr. Meg Jay (21:29):
Yeah.
So the 20 something treatmentis is specifically young adult
mental health, and when I wrotethe defining decade I had a
mental health chapter in there,but this will tell you how much
things have changed is.
My editor was like don't putthat in there, Nobody wants to
talk about that.
You know that's another bookand you know he was right that
nobody did want to talk aboutthat at the time.
(21:50):
And now everybody wants to talkabout it and some of those
conversations are better thanothers and so I thought, okay,
well, it is another book.
Now people do want to talkabout it.
So it's an entire bookdedicated to young adult mental
health and similar to thedefining decade.
A lot of the messages are verynormalizing.
I do a lot of.
You know research and storiesaround how common it is to feel
(22:15):
depressed, to feel anxious, tofeel overwhelmed, to feel
stressed in your 20s, but thatdoesn't mean you're going to be
that way forever.
I change, hopefully, orchallenge, the myth that your
20s are going to be the bestyears of your life and let
people know that empirically,from a mental health perspective
, I'm sorry to say, they tend tobe some of the worst years of
(22:37):
your life because they're souncertain and people don't like
that and it makes people feelanxious and stressed.
But the good news is that your20s really shouldn't be the best
years of your life, that ifyour 20s turn out to be the best
years of your life, somethinghas gone terribly wrong.
Life should, and generally does, get better as you go.
(23:00):
So you know the book is meantto be empowering, normalizing,
relieving, and but it's it'svery specifically about 20,
something mental health?
Judy Oskam (23:09):
Yeah, and some of the stories you weave in there
are stories where people willcome in your office and just
share their deepest challenges,right?
Absolutely and then you kind ofwork it through like you said
normalize that.
Dr. Meg Jay (23:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think what many peoplewill see reading it is oh my
gosh, she's talking about me orI have that too.
It's most college students and20 somethings think they're a
lot more screwed up than theyactually are, and so I think
when they see the stories ofother people they go, oh my gosh
(23:49):
, I felt that way, I thoughtthat, and so it's really trying
to kind of change the narrativeon what it means to struggle in
your 20s and what that means ordoesn't mean for your future.
Judy Oskam (24:02):
I'm so glad you brought up the point that you're
you know, your 20s, shouldn't?
You shouldn't top out in your20s.
And please don't.
We all know those people thatthat that would maxed out in
high school you know like yes,peak in high school, peak in
high school.
You don't want to peak in highschool, but you don't want to
(24:22):
peak in your 20s either.
So I think that's, but I thinkwe hear a lot we see in movies
about right 20s are just your.
Be wild, and crazy and do allthis stuff and enjoy your life,
because you hit 30 and the doorcloses Right right, and it's so
different.
Dr. Meg Jay (24:40):
The reality is in your 20s you will I mean not to
be a downer here, but you'llprobably have the worst jobs
you'll ever have Of course tirethe first.
(25:12):
You know major breakup is hugeNumber one precursor for
depression in the 20s.
So you're there's justabsolutely no evidence to
suggest that your 20s are goingto be the best years of your
life.
I mean, I hope people have somefun, I hope they enjoy
themselves, but the reality isis that all the data show that
(25:32):
people become happier, healthierand more successful as they age
.
And I have never once met andI've been doing this now for 25
years a former client studentperson who said you know, once
they got under 30s, I wish Icould go back to my 20s.
Nobody wants, nobody feels thatway.
So this idea that these aregoing to be the best years, the
(25:54):
happiest years of your life justwrong.
Judy Oskam (25:58):
Should we think of them almost like?
Personally, I think of middleschool.
It's like middle school it'slike was terrible.
Dr. Meg Jay (26:04):
It's kind of becoming that.
I think it is becoming that andthat's okay.
You know, and not every decadeof your life can be amazing, and
you know, the 20s has itscharms, like every decade has.
I remember when I, you know,had kids, somebody told me you
know, every stage is cool in itsown way, and this was when they
(26:26):
were little.
They were adorable, right, andyou're thinking, well, what
could be cuter than this,although it is rough having
toddlers, and so everythinghas's.
You're thinking, well, whatcould be cuter than this,
although it is rough havingtoddlers, and so everything has
its, you know, charms and itsdetractions, and that's true
with every decade of life.
Judy Oskam (26:42):
Well, that's, that's great, and you know, you, you,
you really talk about emotionalmaturity, and is that, is that
tied with the same term,developmental?
Is that what you mean with that?
Dr. Meg Jay (26:56):
Yeah, it's just I talk a lot in the 20-something
treatment about that.
It's normal to have a lot ofhighs and lows, that
20-somethings in general havemore negative thoughts and
feelings than older adults.
For all the reasons we justsaid they have more to feel
negative about.
They also have less sort ofinternal ability to look at that
(27:18):
and say, oh, you know what I'vebeen here before, this is going
to be okay.
By the time you're in your 30sor your 40s something bad can
happen and your brainimmediately can draw on the
experience of like, okay, I'vebeen called to my boss's office
before and it's usually not whatI think it is, or I've gotten
through a breakup before, orwhatever.
(27:39):
In your 20s your brain doesn'thave that kind of experience to
grow up to draw on.
So everything is catastrophic,everything is impossible,
everything is the worst casescenario, normal, normal, normal
.
What you kind of have to do ishelp 20 somethings like weather,
that that sort ofcatastrophizing storm that's
(28:00):
going on in their brains, whilethey gain the experience that
will ultimately teach theirbrains that very few things in
life are as bad as you thinkthey are.
Judy Oskam (28:09):
Well, and we do that with young kids, you know we
help them learn and grow and weteach them how to do things.
But when they and I think partof it is when they go off to
college for those of you youknow, listeners who are in
college or something they're ontheir own and they're trying to
make it on their own.
So maybe, maybe parents think,oh well, they're doing fine, so
(28:32):
they're not really doing fine.
So they're not really doingfine, so they're coming to your
office and talking.
Dr. Meg Jay (28:36):
That's what they're doing, right right.
And many parents out there arethinking thank you, I so
appreciate it.
Somebody said you are doing theLord's work.
You are, I'm telling you, andI'm on a campus too.
Well, you are too, judy.
Judy Oskam (28:50):
Yes, absolutely yeah well, I'm on a campus too, and
there have been times when wehave walked people into the
counselor's office AbsolutelyWanted to make sure they get
someone to talk to.
But it is fascinating when youtalk to 20-somethings and you
just kind of, if there's a wayand you might provide some
(29:11):
guidance here on what can we doto help these students and these
20-somethings see that there isa path forward.
I always like to you know youstart where you are, but how can
we do that?
Dr. Meg Jay (29:26):
Yeah, I mean my very.
You know, I'm really not tryingto be a bookseller here.
Judy Oskam (29:31):
You know, my answer is please, please, read the
books, because and reading bothof them is key, because that
first one, defining Decade, Iwas just telling a colleague of
mine.
We teach a class at Texas Statecalled Career Professionalism
and we do a lot of.
(29:51):
We do some strengths buildingin there and we do some.
How do you build your brand?
But it's a lot of some of thisand I just told my colleague,
jenny, about this and becauseunderstanding more of this.
Luckily she has kids the sameage as I do.
I've got a 26 year old and a 24year old, so I'm right there
with you.
(30:13):
I see it but how, how else?
What else can we do to kind ofhelp them realize that we're all
in this together?
Dr. Meg Jay (30:21):
Yeah, um, I mean, you know so, yeah.
So I say read the books, not tobenefit me as much as that.
It it's truly everything that Ihave learned doing this for 25
years and you know there's onlyso many people can make it to my
office or can afford to seesomeone like me.
(30:41):
And I'm really trying to makethis so that anybody with 15
bucks or a library card can haveall the information that
someone with more resourcesmight have, information that
someone with more resourcesmight have.
You know, the other thing istalk to your friends that
sometimes I'll have clients sayeverybody else is blah, blah,
blah, everybody else is this,that and the other thing.
(31:03):
And I'll say, well, have youasked them?
Because I don't, that's notwhat I'm hearing from everybody
else.
And so you know, to sort of beable to say to your friends like
, hey, I'm really strugglingwith my job, are you?
And so because you know,frankly, I don't think that the
cure for young adult mentalhealth is for everyone to have a
(31:24):
therapist.
That's not sustainable, it'snot possible, it's not scalable.
You know, if anything, I try tohelp 20 somethings have better
relationships with friends orfamily or mentors.
So I guess my short answerwould be read the books or talk
to people, and they don't haveto be therapists, they just need
to be people who care about you.
(31:46):
And they probably have some goodadvice.
Judy Oskam (31:48):
That's great.
That's great.
Well, I want to thank you forsharing your time and expertise.
My pleasure Again.
It's just such a reallyvaluable piece of research that
you've done here to really helpus understand, and I think all
college professors need to readthis.
Dr. Meg Jay (32:09):
I agree.
Judy Oskam (32:11):
It's fantastic, but anyway, I just want to thank you
for your time.
Dr. Meg Jay (32:15):
I appreciate that, and I appreciate what you do as
well.
So thank you so much.
Judy Oskam (32:21):
And thank all of you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, please take a
moment to rate and review thepodcast.
It really helps us reach morelisteners who might learn
something.
Don't forget to check out theshow notes for links to Dr J's
books and her TED Talk.
Thanks again for listening andremember if you've got a story
(32:41):
to share or know someone whodoes reach out to me at
judyoskam.
com.
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