September 11, 2024 • 33 mins
Ever wondered how artificial intelligence is reshaping our world and what it means for your future career? I'm certainly following this topic along with my university colleagues.
Join me for an enlightening conversation with TIM HAYDEN, CEO of Brain+Trust Partners and Texas State University alumnus, as we dissect the rapid evolution of AI. Discover how intuitive models like Perplexity are transforming the way we access information and why hands-on experimentation with AI tools is crucial to understanding their full potential. We also explore how students and faculty can harness AI to enhance their academic endeavors while maintaining the integrity of their educational experiences.
In this episode, Tim draws a fascinating parallel between the historical impact of the shipping container on global trade and the revolution AI promises to bring to various sectors. We discuss the importance of adopting a growth mindset and empathy to successfully navigate technological advancements.
And, as I do with all my guests, I asked Tim about his strengths and natural talents. I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Resources:
Contact Tim Hayden on LinkedIn
The Box: How the Shipping Container Made the World Smaller and the World Economy Bigger by Marc Levinson
The Signals are Talking: Why Today's Fringe is Tomorrow's Mainstream by Amy Webb
Quantitative Futurist Amy Webb
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Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Judy Oskam (00:00):
Do you want to know about artificial intelligence
and the impact it might have onyour life?
Well, I certainly do, andthat's why I reached out to
Texas State University grad TimHayden.
Welcome to Stories of Changeand Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam.
I'm a university professor andadministrator at Texas State,
(00:23):
and on this episode, I talked toTim Hayden.
He is the CEO of Brain+Trust.
He advises clients about media,data and technology.
He's been in this space formore than two decades and during
our conversation, we talk aboutAI search, what students and
faculty should know, and what weshould all know about how to
(00:46):
embrace AI and technology.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Let's start with give me aquick introduction and then I'll
get into some questions.
Tim Hayden (00:58):
Okay, Well, I'm a native Texan, I'm a committed
husband, father, son, friend tomany and, I think, for us
talking today, I'm a devotedBobcat.
I'm a forever Bobcat,
Judy Oskam (01:17):
Love it.
Tim Hayden (01:20):
And for the last 20 years, I've owned marketing
agencies.
I've worked for marketingagencies.
I've started software companiesand I've worked for them, and
since 2016, I've been in the bigdata business, really helping
companies come around toeverything from compliance with
(01:40):
data privacy, but alsocybersecurity and
personalization of customerexperiences.
And here we are using that datafor artificial intelligence.
Judy Oskam (01:51):
That's right, I love it.
Well, and we hear so much aboutAI and I mean where do we start
?
Where does the average listeneror viewer really where do they
start with AI?
What should they know and howshould they go about that?
Tim Hayden (02:06):
Well, you know, I think you know I've worked back
at the beginning of 2010 and2011.
I worked for Edelman, theworld's largest PR firm, and I
had a colleague there we'restill friends Steve Rubell, who
(02:27):
used to say about social mediais that there's news that finds
you and news that you find.
And AI is very similar in thatrespect, in that there's a whole
lot.
As we start to carry oursmartphones everywhere we go
with us, right, we are basicallytraining machine learning and
(02:48):
artificial intelligence to bemore empathetic with us.
Right, in terms of the apps weuse, in terms of some of the
functionality on the phonesthemselves.
You know this is it watcheswhat we do and it learns from it
.
Right, and that's ageneralization.
But where I'm going with thatis just that there's a whole lot
(03:11):
that has already happened overthe last decade with machine
learning and artificialintelligence to make our lives
better or at least more fluid,for better or worse, because
there's, I promise you I canprobably do a pros and cons of
where the things are headed andwhere they've already taken us,
(03:33):
but at the end of the day, Ithink for folks right now that
are really curious aboutartificial intelligence, you
know, one of the quickest waysto really play around with it is
to start to investigatecompanies like OpenAI or
Anthropic and Claude, which istheir large language model.
You know, using perplexity forsearch as an example, you know
(04:06):
there are things that arehappening right now that are the
precursors to challenging andreplacing things that we've
always done, and when I when Imentioned perplexity, I'll try
to end on that, but this answer,at least, is that perplexity,
you know it, is built on thepremise that when you search for
things, you want answers.
You don't want lists, right?
So the obvious the $27 billionbusiness that Google has owning
(04:31):
the majority of the searchmarket is currently being
disrupted.
It is currently beingchallenged by companies like
Perplexity they're not the onlyone, but companies like
Perplexity that are saying, hey,we need to challenge what
search is and what it does, howit functions, right.
(04:51):
So it's important, I think, forfolks to get out and play
around with these things rightnow.
You're only going to find whatthe value is if you actually do
it.
You're not going to find itthrough somebody giving you best
practices.
I think that's the short answer.
Judy Oskam (05:07):
Well, and I think that's a great answer, and, as
you know, our faculty at TexasState are really engaged with AI
and we're connecting it withthe content.
And you mentioned your start.
One of your early starts waswith Edelman.
How do you think students canbenefit from this as they're
(05:30):
getting out into the workforce,and how should they really
navigate this?
Tim Hayden (05:34):
Well, you know, I think there's a lot of discourse
out there right now about AI inthe classroom, and let's just
consider, when the studentleaves the teaching theater and
goes back to their apartment ora coffee shop or anywhere, they
have the ability now to askChatGPT for an answer.
(05:56):
They have the ability to uploadsome questions and say answer
these questions.
For me, I think the importantthing here is that not to just
replace what is yourresponsibility or, better yet,
your opportunity as a student tolearn.
It is to understand that AIlike this will be available in
(06:19):
the workplace ultimately, and ifanything, it's here to help you
get a head start.
You know it's here to write adraft.
It's here to.
It's here to give you acomplimenting point of view that
maybe you don't have.
I think if you treat it that waywith some respect, I think that
students will find out that itshouldn't replace I'm being very
(06:39):
careful not to use the wordcheat, but you know it's not to
use the word cheat, but you knowit's.
It's.
It is just to say let's notreplace what it means to study,
what it means to read, what itmeans to recall your with your
notes that you took in class.
You know there are, there aretechnologies that are allowing
us to do that by transcribingwhat you know, what is said in
(07:02):
the classroom or what is said ona Zoom call, right, right.
But this can help us as humans,just to have better recall.
It can help us better with, youknow, thorough note taking.
You know we can only move ourhands so much when we're writing
or typing, as the case may be.
(07:27):
Typing or typing as the case maybe, and I think there's just
incredible opportunities for AIto improve the engagement that
students are having with theircoursework, right?
I just I think that's that'swhat's fascinating right now to
me is even in my daily grind.
You know it's not university,but it's not different in terms
(07:49):
how I talk to clients and I talkto strategic partners all day
and I learn new things from themall the time, and I'm starting
to use artificial intelligencetools just to help me understand
and to help me translate whatit is I'm engaged with in the
discourse I have with thosefolks.
So I think, fundamentally, it'sthe same opportunity that
(08:10):
students have now with theircoursework, with their group
projects, with those one-on-oneconversations they may have with
faculty.
I just think there's going tobe a number of ways that AI just
comes in and really complementsor even, as far as I could see,
(08:31):
optimizes what needs to happenin those situations.
Judy Oskam (08:36):
I love that term optimize because that, to me, is
part of what it's doing.
It's bringing it to the nextlevel.
Saving time, but bringingthings to the next level.
Tim Hayden (08:47):
That's right.
I mean, you think about you,just think about the experience
of of going away to a four yearcollege.
Right is, I've always, I alwaysbrag on San Marcos because it
is.
It is a very unique and specialcampus experience and as you
(09:12):
start to dial in your study,there is a unique assortment of
both the coursework and theprofessors and your fellow
students that you have.
That's just extremely unique towhat happens there.
To say it's better, it's justthat it's different than
(09:35):
anywhere else.
And I think you know this iswhere we have to be careful,
because when you think about theoptimization is, how do we
double down on that which isunique and special and valuable?
Why are we investing our time?
Why are we paying tuition to bein the moment, in the location,
in the classroom, where we areright now?
Right, ai can help us optimizeor help us, you know, I would
(10:01):
say, amplify even what thatinvestment is, and to do so in a
non-commoditized way.
I mean, I think that's the partwe have to be careful is that
when you think about people thatare out there today on LinkedIn
or YouTube and they're saying,you know, be an AI expert, you
(10:21):
know, be a.
You know.
Let me show you how to promptengineer, let me show you how to
do these things, and I and I'malways quick to say is you know,
this is what's fascinatingabout this technology is that
what works for some people willnot work for everybody, and
that's how malleable AI is.
(10:42):
It's extremely malleable foryou to do things that are and
build functionality that I thinkis very unique to you as an
individual and whatever yourcause or your opportunity is.
Judy Oskam (10:56):
Well, and that goes to the strategy, right, Without
the strategy, you just you havethe tool.
You've got to have strategy andthe tool.
Tim Hayden (11:04):
I think so.
I mean, we talk a lot atBrainTrust about the notion of
the human in the loop is to saythat, you know, if we have, if
we're looking at a specificbusiness process that we'd like
to automate, let's quantify that.
(11:24):
Let's quantify that it takesfive clicks, five steps to do
that today, and maybe we'regoing to get it down to two and
allow AI to do three of thosesteps for us, but let's spread
the two to be the first and thelast.
So the human is setting thingsup for the direction or the
success in terms of what they'retrying to achieve and, lastly,
(11:46):
the human is the one who isgoing to confirm that AI
completed the tasks the way thatwas needed in that situation,
right?
So I think, when you say thatyou know, just borrowing what
you just said with strategy, ithas to be where we're being
(12:07):
extremely thoughtful andintentional about the.
You know the key performanceindicator, you know the KPI, or
the goal, the objective, what isit are we trying to achieve?
And that's a strategicconversation, right?
And this is where good,old-fashioned whiteboards and
(12:29):
people in a room being able to,you know, leverage each other's
body language and communicatethese are things that computers
are not going to be able to doright.
This is not what AI is going tobe able to do To capitalize on
that sensory side of how wecommunicate and we think about
things critically, strategically, and then back into what is it
(12:52):
that we can build or we cansubscribe to, that helps us do
this on a replicable or, youknow, from a continuity
standpoint over and over again,if that's what we're trying to
do in terms of automatingsomething or just grabbing an
efficiency with artificialintelligence or other automation
(13:12):
technology, Well, and that'swhere the, like you said, the
human element, and, in my case,the teacher, the educator, the
leader, the facilitator,wherever, whatever your
environment is, that's wherethat human being comes in, right
to make it all work human beingcomes in, right, to make it all
(13:35):
work, right?
Well, I mean, you think about itin the context of instructors
and professors is you have thetextbooks?
Right?
Let's just we'll go there realquick.
You have the textbooks and thesyllabus, the general syllabus,
which are your constants, right?
These are the things.
These are the things that arenot super malleable, right?
But the best professors sincethe earth cooled were the ones
(13:58):
who, who, who, who brought inpersonal experiences, brought in
guest speakers, or you know, or, or had a side gig doing some
consulting work you know, out inthe real world and then brought
that back into the classroomand being able to talk about
things that are happening hereand now, which sometimes will
(14:20):
challenge what's in the textbookand sometimes will, you know,
certainly be different and becomplimentary, if you're
intentional about it, to whatelse is there with the syllabus
and the textbook.
So I think you know, if you canthink about things in those
terms, then I think you caneasily start to understand what
(14:40):
are the ways that you could beable to leverage automation or
artificial intelligence to helpyou do things a little bit
different.
You know and again it goes backto what we were talking about
just before.
This was strategy and beingable to understand what you're
trying to achieve.
Judy Oskam (14:56):
Yeah, well, and has there?
Ai has been around for for awhile.
Has there been a shift likethis before that you could?
Is there a parallel here?
Tim Hayden (15:09):
I think there's a few of them, right.
I mean my favorite one whenpeople ask that question, right,
and it usually starts off witha question like you know what
jobs are going to be the firstto go, you know, and I say, well
, let's back into this, right,we're humans, humans, and we
(15:31):
doesn't matter what happens, ifit's disease or it's war or it's
you know some other type ofpolitical thing that's happening
.
We, we persevere, we, you know,this is this is the way we're
wired.
We'll figure out a way.
But the one example that I loveto really put out there is in
(15:54):
the late 1950s thestandardization of the shipping
container was a big thing andthere's a book called the Box.
The author's name is MarkLevinson and I think it's
M-A-R-C-L-E-V-I-N-S-O-N, and thestory he tells about the
(16:17):
shipping container.
I had a chance to see him speakand then I read his book and it
used to be that when cargo wasshipped, it was shipped in bulk
and it came into, obviously,coastal cities, because that's
where the ports were, and itwould take as many as 10,000
humans to be able to unload thecargo from a boat and it may
(16:40):
take them as long as a month todo it Once the shipping
container came along and finallygot standardized in the mid-60s
, it only took four people to dothis.
It only took four people to dothis because you only needed a
person on the boat operating thecrane or on the crane, and then
you had a person on the boatputting the hooks on the
containers and two people downbelow to direct the train, the
(17:02):
truck, and make sure that thethe container came down and got
on it.
That right there did a fewthings.
It displaced tens of millionsof Americans from their jobs.
It basically we saw the birthof suburbanization Right.
(17:23):
We saw the really front edge ofwhat everybody talks together
about right now is sprawl interms of economic development
and real estate development, andthe shipping container was the
one thing that enabled that tohappen.
And then, right alongside ittoo, we had the maturation of
(17:48):
the interstate highways right.
So as that happened, you canthink about what we have today
with big box retail.
You can think about right nowwhat we have with processed
foods.
I mean, you can look at all ofthis and it really came down to
the standardization of thesupply chain, which was enabled
(18:09):
by the shipping container.
The AI is going to do the samething.
It is going to reassign humansto do other jobs.
It is going to require us to beskilled and re-skilled to do
something different in the jobswe already have.
(18:29):
Do something different in thejobs we already have.
It is just going tofundamentally change business
operations again, and thewonderful thing about this is
that, you know, probably five toeight years is when we'll start
seeing the bleeding edge ofthis, of where humans are
(18:49):
actually able to invest and putthe time into solving incredibly
important human challenges thatare out there and that can be
disease, that could be politics,it could be global economic or
sociopolitical issues that arehappening global economic or
(19:15):
sociopolitical issues that arehappening.
Ai is going to help us be ableto use information and leverage
information from disparateresources and disparate sources
as it does that.
You know, it's not going to befar-fetched to think that we're
going to be able to cure somediseases.
It's not going to befar-fetched that we're going to
be able to do some things thatotherwise we just couldn't do
because we didn't have theconnectivity and we certainly
(19:37):
didn't have the addedintelligence at our side that we
will have.
So that's my really long way isto say you don't know.
We have no idea what's going tohappen, but some great things
are certainly plausible.
Judy Oskam (19:53):
Yeah Well, Tim, what is it in our nature, and what
is it in your nature, if youwill, or your approach, that
allows you to really have such agrowth mindset?
Let's talk about that, becauseI think that's part of it is
that you hear people say AI isbad, AI is terrible and I don't
want anything to do with it.
(20:13):
What do we need to?
What approach do we need tohave?
And I'm a real believer, we atthe university really love
students that come in with agrowth mindset.
It just works.
But talk about your personaljourney in that area, if you
would.
Tim Hayden (20:28):
Well, you know, I am going back to when I worked at
Edelman.
You know I've that was in themiddle of my career as a mobile
strategist, which I talked aboutshipping containers, but of how
it's changed the way we live.
Um, you know, if you, if youstart to um, another, another
(20:58):
great book um to read is, uh,Amy Webb.
Judy Oskam (21:04):
Love her.
Yes, I know, Amy.
Tim Hayden (21:06):
And Talking to Signals, right Um, it's another
one of those books justeverybody should read because,
um, it talks about how, abouthow you know the things that she
observed on the streets ofTokyo 20 years ago.
She could start to really piecethem together after she
observed that and started tounderstand how it was connected
(21:28):
to some other development orsomething else that was
happening.
Connected to some otherdevelopment or something else
that was happening.
And when I was in, when I wasdoing things as a, as a mobile
strategist, I got reallyinterested in things like the
development of M-Pesa insub-Saharan Africa as a way for
farmers to be able to get tomarket and get their, their
(21:49):
produce to market before itperished or before pirates could
get it, and get the best dollarper pound for whatever their,
their produce to market beforeit perished or before pirates
could get it.
Um, and get the best dollar perpound for whatever their,
whatever their bushels were, um,and have all of the commerce
take place via text message,text messaging, right Um, um,
and this was something that washappening 12 years ago, right,
um.
So if you, if you just start to, if you start to look at the
(22:12):
smallest little things thathappen around you and it you
don't have to go to Japan, youdon't have to go to Africa.
But for me it's always been howdo I try to be as empathetic as
I can, which sometimes is assimple as, as you know, having a
(22:33):
smile on your face and andsaying please and thank you, and
asking people how their day isgoing?
Um, just to be able to get whatcomes after that right, which
is somebody asking a questionabout what do you do and how do
you do it?
Or hey, did you see that overthere, people see people, it's
things that other people observeand then pointing it out to you
.
Right, see people, it's thingsthat other people observe, and
(22:53):
then pointing it out to you.
Right, this is this may soundlike nonsense, this may sound
like, you know, just the captureof information that you might
not ever need, but if we thinkabout it and this is something I
, when I guest lecture at TexasState and at other universities,
is I tell students all the timeI say go for a long walk and
(23:15):
take your, take your AirPods out, right, take your, take your,
take your earphones out and andjust go for a walk and and
listen to the birds, listen tothe traffic, look around you
right and think about you knowwhat, what you're seeing, a
little bit, but just know thatthe sensory capture of the
(23:36):
experience is going to be uniqueto you and it's going to enrich
how you see something else.
And backing into this a growthmindset is also having
confidence that you'll alwaysfind a way right.
A growth mindset is also havingconfidence that you'll always
(24:20):
find a way right.
It's that, hey, I will alwayson the peripheral.
I need to understand theperipheral.
I need to keep my eye on that.
Matter what happens, I need tofind a way around it or a way
straight to it.
So to me, that's just aboutbeing observant.
It's just about buildingempathy with the world around
you, which actually justimproves everything.
It just improves your criticalthinking.
It improves your ability tograsp concepts that otherwise
(24:43):
were just foreign to you.
If they're coming, maybethey're coming from somebody you
don't agree with, right youknow.
It just helps in all thosecapacities.
Judy Oskam (24:54):
I think that's a great point to bring up.
You might have differing viewsfrom colleagues, but being open
to listen to that and then to me, I would see that AI could be
very empowering.
It could give you even moresuperpowers if you have that
empathetic growth mindset.
Tim Hayden (25:15):
Well, absolutely.
I mean, there's a lot of talkin Silicon Valley right now that
within our lifetimes there willbe unicorn companies, you know,
companies that are valued at abillion dollars or more, where
they only have one employeeright.
There are people who believewe'll see that very soon.
You know that certainly fallsin the in the phylum of
(25:38):
superpowers.
It absolutely does.
Sure, you know, but I, but Ithink that's just it is, if you,
you know, I, I can.
I can tell you when I have azoom call or a Microsoft Teams
call with a client and there'sno sensitive information that
we've talked about, it's just astate of the account or it's a
(25:59):
strategic ideation session,maybe it's just a new business
call, a system like Otter orReadai, taking those transcripts
(26:26):
and then going to Claude, whichis a large language model, and
giving Claude the transcriptsand saying can you?
You know this was a call withXYZ company.
We are discussing a probableopportunity to help them with
their data management.
Can you summarize this in 200words for me and give me five
next steps and do a draft emailfor me back to Greg, and we'll
just say and, and 10 nanosecondslater I have a draft of the
(26:46):
email.
The transcript was read and youknow if that does, if that's not
superpowers, right, that's not.
If that's not, if that's nottaking something that would have
taken me, you know, at least anhour to read the transcripts
and to cut and paste and then towordsmith.
You know, manually, I mean, ofcourse I.
(27:07):
I took the draft from Claudeand then I put my own voice into
it and I changed quite a bit.
But just that immediacy ofbeing able to start something,
you know, to get that initialdirection going, I think we'll
see more and more of, you know,an acceleration of the speed of
(27:29):
business, an acceleration ofdecision making, as we start to
see more applications oftechnology that are similar to
that.
Judy Oskam (27:37):
I love that.
Well, and look ahead five years.
Give us your, give us yourprediction.
Five years, that's what.
What is it going to be like forstudents graduating five years
from now?
Let's take it back to the, tothe university, to give you some
sort of a framework.
Tim Hayden (27:54):
Sure, sure, well, I mean, I think, things for
students to think about right.
Five years from now, we won'thear anyone say just Google,
that right, search is going tofundamentally change.
Search as a human need or ahuman behavior will always be
there.
Right, search is going tofundamentally change.
(28:15):
Search as a human need or ahuman behavior will always be
there.
Right?
I mean the internet is vast andit has answers.
Now we'll have the means to getthose answers and not just have
sponsored lists of companiesthat we have to click on and
then click through to the pagewe were looking for.
(28:35):
So I think you'll, you'll thinkof things if you, if you just
grasp that to say what is whatdoes this mean?
Right in terms of how we goabout marketing, how we go about
communications, how we go aboutresearch, whatever the case may
be, I think there'sopportunities to consider that.
(28:55):
I think there's also thisopportunity to understand how AI
is not just generative AI muchin the way we've been discussing
it.
It is how I think we'll startto see what's called invisible
experiences, where companieswill have so much data on us and
we've opted in and we'veconsented to them managing our
(29:18):
data that they'll start to dothings for us.
They'll start to send us thingswithout us asking for or
ordering them.
Right and, as I'm forecasting,that I would say I would tell
students is how would you showup different?
You know, how would you uniquelyapproach the opportunity to be
(29:39):
able to have a better finger onthe pulse of what's going on in
the world, what's going on withcustomer behavior, and be able
to show up different?
And that could be a supply chaintype conversation, it could be
a marketing or communicationstype conversation and it could
be something else, but I thinkthe big thing that's going to
(30:03):
happen in five years is justthat start thinking about what
it is you can do uniquely as ahuman that you're not going to
be able to do with AI.
I think that's a list that'salways going to be challenged,
because there's two people in acoffee shop out there who are
trying to automate things andtrying to put together the
(30:26):
slides to walk into a VC'soffice and raise a couple
million dollars to build anotherbot.
But you know, there will berobots, there will be
self-driving cars, there will bedoctors on call that have robot
nurses, you know, and there areall these things that are going
(30:46):
to happen, and a lot of it willhappen, probably as soon as
five years.
So I want to I want to stopshort of being really
prescriptive, because it's hardfor anybody to say what the
world's going to look like atthat point?
Judy Oskam (30:59):
Sure, yeah, well, how fun, how fun is that, tim?
Well, and I always, I alwayslike to ask my guests about
their, their personal strengths.
I'm a Gallup strengths coachand you might not have done the
Gallup strengths, cliftonstrengths finder.
But what, what are yourpersonal strengths?
Do you think what?
What do you, what do you thinkof or what do other people say
(31:21):
about?
Oh, tim is really because he'sstrong in this area.
Tim Hayden (31:28):
You know, I?
I think it really comes down tosome of the things we already
discussed.
You know I'm deep onrelationships.
Right, I'm short on thetransactional and deeper on the
relationship side of business,of leading a company, of
(31:54):
supporting my alma mater.
You know of spending time withmy family, right, I think people
would say that you know thatTim is more present than many
folks.
I'm not as present as I want tobe, um I?
(32:15):
I tend to stare at my phone toomuch, right?
Um, don't we all do you know,but um, I just think, um, I
think people would talk aboutempathy or and um, and it would
probably even say that, um,there's some creative value that
I bring into which I like to Iliken to be more strategic than
(32:36):
just straight creative but to totruly think beyond the
peripheral, right to what peopleused to say about thinking
outside the box, just thinkingmore holistically about business
opportunities or challenges,about business opportunities or
challenges.
(32:57):
I think that's it's one of theways that I do excel
professionally and I think it'sone of the reasons that clients
retain what we do, for ourability to think holistically
and maybe look a little furtherdown the road, you know, in
terms of what it is we're doingtoday and how can it be
leveraged, amortized orapplicable, not just something
that is temperamental orimmediate.
Judy Oskam (33:19):
I love that, and I love the focus on empathy as
well.
Tim, thank you so much forjoining me today, so fun.
Tim Hayden (33:26):
Thank you, Judy.
Judy Oskam (33:27):
We'll have you back, for sure.
Tim Hayden (33:29):
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
Judy Oskam (33:31):
Well, and thank you for listening to Stories of
Change and Creativity.
We'll put some informationabout Tim Hayden in the show
notes with some of thereferences he made during our
talk and, if you've got a storyto share or know someone who
does, reach out to me atjudyoskam.
com.
Thanks for listening.
Do you want to know about artificial intelligence
and the impact it might have onyour life?
Well, I certainly do, andthat's why I reached out to
Texas State University grad TimHayden.
Welcome to Stories of Changeand Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam.
I'm a university professor andadministrator at Texas State,
(00:23):
and on this episode, I talked toTim Hayden.
He is the CEO of Brain+Trust.
He advises clients about media,data and technology.
He's been in this space formore than two decades and during
our conversation, we talk aboutAI search, what students and
faculty should know, and what weshould all know about how to
(00:46):
embrace AI and technology.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Let's start with give me aquick introduction and then I'll
get into some questions.
Tim Hayden (00:58):
Okay, Well, I'm a native Texan, I'm a committed
husband, father, son, friend tomany and, I think, for us
talking today, I'm a devotedBobcat.
I'm a forever Bobcat,
Judy Oskam (01:17):
Love it.
Tim Hayden (01:20):
And for the last 20 years, I've owned marketing
agencies.
I've worked for marketingagencies.
I've started software companiesand I've worked for them, and
since 2016, I've been in the bigdata business, really helping
companies come around toeverything from compliance with
(01:40):
data privacy, but alsocybersecurity and
personalization of customerexperiences.
And here we are using that datafor artificial intelligence.
Judy Oskam (01:51):
That's right, I love it.
Well, and we hear so much aboutAI and I mean where do we start
?
Where does the average listeneror viewer really where do they
start with AI?
What should they know and howshould they go about that?
Tim Hayden (02:06):
Well, you know, I think you know I've worked back
at the beginning of 2010 and2011.
I worked for Edelman, theworld's largest PR firm, and I
had a colleague there we'restill friends Steve Rubell, who
(02:27):
used to say about social mediais that there's news that finds
you and news that you find.
And AI is very similar in thatrespect, in that there's a whole
lot.
As we start to carry oursmartphones everywhere we go
with us, right, we are basicallytraining machine learning and
(02:48):
artificial intelligence to bemore empathetic with us.
Right, in terms of the apps weuse, in terms of some of the
functionality on the phonesthemselves.
You know this is it watcheswhat we do and it learns from it
.
Right, and that's ageneralization.
But where I'm going with thatis just that there's a whole lot
(03:11):
that has already happened overthe last decade with machine
learning and artificialintelligence to make our lives
better or at least more fluid,for better or worse, because
there's, I promise you I canprobably do a pros and cons of
where the things are headed andwhere they've already taken us,
(03:33):
but at the end of the day, Ithink for folks right now that
are really curious aboutartificial intelligence, you
know, one of the quickest waysto really play around with it is
to start to investigatecompanies like OpenAI or
Anthropic and Claude, which istheir large language model.
You know, using perplexity forsearch as an example, you know
(04:06):
there are things that arehappening right now that are the
precursors to challenging andreplacing things that we've
always done, and when I when Imentioned perplexity, I'll try
to end on that, but this answer,at least, is that perplexity,
you know it, is built on thepremise that when you search for
things, you want answers.
You don't want lists, right?
So the obvious the $27 billionbusiness that Google has owning
(04:31):
the majority of the searchmarket is currently being
disrupted.
It is currently beingchallenged by companies like
Perplexity they're not the onlyone, but companies like
Perplexity that are saying, hey,we need to challenge what
search is and what it does, howit functions, right.
(04:51):
So it's important, I think, forfolks to get out and play
around with these things rightnow.
You're only going to find whatthe value is if you actually do
it.
You're not going to find itthrough somebody giving you best
practices.
I think that's the short answer.
Judy Oskam (05:07):
Well, and I think that's a great answer, and, as
you know, our faculty at TexasState are really engaged with AI
and we're connecting it withthe content.
And you mentioned your start.
One of your early starts waswith Edelman.
How do you think students canbenefit from this as they're
(05:30):
getting out into the workforce,and how should they really
navigate this?
Tim Hayden (05:34):
Well, you know, I think there's a lot of discourse
out there right now about AI inthe classroom, and let's just
consider, when the studentleaves the teaching theater and
goes back to their apartment ora coffee shop or anywhere, they
have the ability now to askChatGPT for an answer.
(05:56):
They have the ability to uploadsome questions and say answer
these questions.
For me, I think the importantthing here is that not to just
replace what is yourresponsibility or, better yet,
your opportunity as a student tolearn.
It is to understand that AIlike this will be available in
(06:19):
the workplace ultimately, and ifanything, it's here to help you
get a head start.
You know it's here to write adraft.
It's here to.
It's here to give you acomplimenting point of view that
maybe you don't have.
I think if you treat it that waywith some respect, I think that
students will find out that itshouldn't replace I'm being very
(06:39):
careful not to use the wordcheat, but you know it's not to
use the word cheat, but you knowit's.
It's.
It is just to say let's notreplace what it means to study,
what it means to read, what itmeans to recall your with your
notes that you took in class.
You know there are, there aretechnologies that are allowing
us to do that by transcribingwhat you know, what is said in
(07:02):
the classroom or what is said ona Zoom call, right, right.
But this can help us as humans,just to have better recall.
It can help us better with, youknow, thorough note taking.
You know we can only move ourhands so much when we're writing
or typing, as the case may be.
(07:27):
Typing or typing as the case maybe, and I think there's just
incredible opportunities for AIto improve the engagement that
students are having with theircoursework, right?
I just I think that's that'swhat's fascinating right now to
me is even in my daily grind.
You know it's not university,but it's not different in terms
(07:49):
how I talk to clients and I talkto strategic partners all day
and I learn new things from themall the time, and I'm starting
to use artificial intelligencetools just to help me understand
and to help me translate whatit is I'm engaged with in the
discourse I have with thosefolks.
So I think, fundamentally, it'sthe same opportunity that
(08:10):
students have now with theircoursework, with their group
projects, with those one-on-oneconversations they may have with
faculty.
I just think there's going tobe a number of ways that AI just
comes in and really complementsor even, as far as I could see,
(08:31):
optimizes what needs to happenin those situations.
Judy Oskam (08:36):
I love that term optimize because that, to me, is
part of what it's doing.
It's bringing it to the nextlevel.
Saving time, but bringingthings to the next level.
Tim Hayden (08:47):
That's right.
I mean, you think about you,just think about the experience
of of going away to a four yearcollege.
Right is, I've always, I alwaysbrag on San Marcos because it
is.
It is a very unique and specialcampus experience and as you
(09:12):
start to dial in your study,there is a unique assortment of
both the coursework and theprofessors and your fellow
students that you have.
That's just extremely unique towhat happens there.
To say it's better, it's justthat it's different than
(09:35):
anywhere else.
And I think you know this iswhere we have to be careful,
because when you think about theoptimization is, how do we
double down on that which isunique and special and valuable?
Why are we investing our time?
Why are we paying tuition to bein the moment, in the location,
in the classroom, where we areright now?
Right, ai can help us optimizeor help us, you know, I would
(10:01):
say, amplify even what thatinvestment is, and to do so in a
non-commoditized way.
I mean, I think that's the partwe have to be careful is that
when you think about people thatare out there today on LinkedIn
or YouTube and they're saying,you know, be an AI expert, you
(10:21):
know, be a.
You know.
Let me show you how to promptengineer, let me show you how to
do these things, and I and I'malways quick to say is you know,
this is what's fascinatingabout this technology is that
what works for some people willnot work for everybody, and
that's how malleable AI is.
(10:42):
It's extremely malleable foryou to do things that are and
build functionality that I thinkis very unique to you as an
individual and whatever yourcause or your opportunity is.
Judy Oskam (10:56):
Well, and that goes to the strategy, right, Without
the strategy, you just you havethe tool.
You've got to have strategy andthe tool.
Tim Hayden (11:04):
I think so.
I mean, we talk a lot atBrainTrust about the notion of
the human in the loop is to saythat, you know, if we have, if
we're looking at a specificbusiness process that we'd like
to automate, let's quantify that.
(11:24):
Let's quantify that it takesfive clicks, five steps to do
that today, and maybe we'regoing to get it down to two and
allow AI to do three of thosesteps for us, but let's spread
the two to be the first and thelast.
So the human is setting thingsup for the direction or the
success in terms of what they'retrying to achieve and, lastly,
(11:46):
the human is the one who isgoing to confirm that AI
completed the tasks the way thatwas needed in that situation,
right?
So I think, when you say thatyou know, just borrowing what
you just said with strategy, ithas to be where we're being
(12:07):
extremely thoughtful andintentional about the.
You know the key performanceindicator, you know the KPI, or
the goal, the objective, what isit are we trying to achieve?
And that's a strategicconversation, right?
And this is where good,old-fashioned whiteboards and
(12:29):
people in a room being able to,you know, leverage each other's
body language and communicatethese are things that computers
are not going to be able to doright.
This is not what AI is going tobe able to do To capitalize on
that sensory side of how wecommunicate and we think about
things critically, strategically, and then back into what is it
(12:52):
that we can build or we cansubscribe to, that helps us do
this on a replicable or, youknow, from a continuity
standpoint over and over again,if that's what we're trying to
do in terms of automatingsomething or just grabbing an
efficiency with artificialintelligence or other automation
(13:12):
technology, Well, and that'swhere the, like you said, the
human element, and, in my case,the teacher, the educator, the
leader, the facilitator,wherever, whatever your
environment is, that's wherethat human being comes in, right
to make it all work human beingcomes in, right, to make it all
(13:35):
work, right?
Well, I mean, you think about itin the context of instructors
and professors is you have thetextbooks?
Right?
Let's just we'll go there realquick.
You have the textbooks and thesyllabus, the general syllabus,
which are your constants, right?
These are the things.
These are the things that arenot super malleable, right?
But the best professors sincethe earth cooled were the ones
(13:58):
who, who, who, who brought inpersonal experiences, brought in
guest speakers, or you know, or, or had a side gig doing some
consulting work you know, out inthe real world and then brought
that back into the classroomand being able to talk about
things that are happening hereand now, which sometimes will
(14:20):
challenge what's in the textbookand sometimes will, you know,
certainly be different and becomplimentary, if you're
intentional about it, to whatelse is there with the syllabus
and the textbook.
So I think you know, if you canthink about things in those
terms, then I think you caneasily start to understand what
(14:40):
are the ways that you could beable to leverage automation or
artificial intelligence to helpyou do things a little bit
different.
You know and again it goes backto what we were talking about
just before.
This was strategy and beingable to understand what you're
trying to achieve.
Judy Oskam (14:56):
Yeah, well, and has there?
Ai has been around for for awhile.
Has there been a shift likethis before that you could?
Is there a parallel here?
Tim Hayden (15:09):
I think there's a few of them, right.
I mean my favorite one whenpeople ask that question, right,
and it usually starts off witha question like you know what
jobs are going to be the firstto go, you know, and I say, well
, let's back into this, right,we're humans, humans, and we
(15:31):
doesn't matter what happens, ifit's disease or it's war or it's
you know some other type ofpolitical thing that's happening
.
We, we persevere, we, you know,this is this is the way we're
wired.
We'll figure out a way.
But the one example that I loveto really put out there is in
(15:54):
the late 1950s thestandardization of the shipping
container was a big thing andthere's a book called the Box.
The author's name is MarkLevinson and I think it's
M-A-R-C-L-E-V-I-N-S-O-N, and thestory he tells about the
(16:17):
shipping container.
I had a chance to see him speakand then I read his book and it
used to be that when cargo wasshipped, it was shipped in bulk
and it came into, obviously,coastal cities, because that's
where the ports were, and itwould take as many as 10,000
humans to be able to unload thecargo from a boat and it may
(16:40):
take them as long as a month todo it Once the shipping
container came along and finallygot standardized in the mid-60s
, it only took four people to dothis.
It only took four people to dothis because you only needed a
person on the boat operating thecrane or on the crane, and then
you had a person on the boatputting the hooks on the
containers and two people downbelow to direct the train, the
(17:02):
truck, and make sure that thethe container came down and got
on it.
That right there did a fewthings.
It displaced tens of millionsof Americans from their jobs.
It basically we saw the birthof suburbanization Right.
(17:23):
We saw the really front edge ofwhat everybody talks together
about right now is sprawl interms of economic development
and real estate development, andthe shipping container was the
one thing that enabled that tohappen.
And then, right alongside ittoo, we had the maturation of
(17:48):
the interstate highways right.
So as that happened, you canthink about what we have today
with big box retail.
You can think about right nowwhat we have with processed
foods.
I mean, you can look at all ofthis and it really came down to
the standardization of thesupply chain, which was enabled
(18:09):
by the shipping container.
The AI is going to do the samething.
It is going to reassign humansto do other jobs.
It is going to require us to beskilled and re-skilled to do
something different in the jobswe already have.
(18:29):
Do something different in thejobs we already have.
It is just going tofundamentally change business
operations again, and thewonderful thing about this is
that, you know, probably five toeight years is when we'll start
seeing the bleeding edge ofthis, of where humans are
(18:49):
actually able to invest and putthe time into solving incredibly
important human challenges thatare out there and that can be
disease, that could be politics,it could be global economic or
sociopolitical issues that arehappening global economic or
(19:15):
sociopolitical issues that arehappening.
Ai is going to help us be ableto use information and leverage
information from disparateresources and disparate sources
as it does that.
You know, it's not going to befar-fetched to think that we're
going to be able to cure somediseases.
It's not going to befar-fetched that we're going to
be able to do some things thatotherwise we just couldn't do
because we didn't have theconnectivity and we certainly
(19:37):
didn't have the addedintelligence at our side that we
will have.
So that's my really long way isto say you don't know.
We have no idea what's going tohappen, but some great things
are certainly plausible.
Judy Oskam (19:53):
Yeah Well, Tim, what is it in our nature, and what
is it in your nature, if youwill, or your approach, that
allows you to really have such agrowth mindset?
Let's talk about that, becauseI think that's part of it is
that you hear people say AI isbad, AI is terrible and I don't
want anything to do with it.
(20:13):
What do we need to?
What approach do we need tohave?
And I'm a real believer, we atthe university really love
students that come in with agrowth mindset.
It just works.
But talk about your personaljourney in that area, if you
would.
Tim Hayden (20:28):
Well, you know, I am going back to when I worked at
Edelman.
You know I've that was in themiddle of my career as a mobile
strategist, which I talked aboutshipping containers, but of how
it's changed the way we live.
Um, you know, if you, if youstart to um, another, another
(20:58):
great book um to read is, uh,Amy Webb.
Judy Oskam (21:04):
Love her.
Yes, I know, Amy.
Tim Hayden (21:06):
And Talking to Signals, right Um, it's another
one of those books justeverybody should read because,
um, it talks about how, abouthow you know the things that she
observed on the streets ofTokyo 20 years ago.
She could start to really piecethem together after she
observed that and started tounderstand how it was connected
(21:28):
to some other development orsomething else that was
happening.
Connected to some otherdevelopment or something else
that was happening.
And when I was in, when I wasdoing things as a, as a mobile
strategist, I got reallyinterested in things like the
development of M-Pesa insub-Saharan Africa as a way for
farmers to be able to get tomarket and get their, their
(21:49):
produce to market before itperished or before pirates could
get it, and get the best dollarper pound for whatever their,
their produce to market beforeit perished or before pirates
could get it.
Um, and get the best dollar perpound for whatever their,
whatever their bushels were, um,and have all of the commerce
take place via text message,text messaging, right Um, um,
and this was something that washappening 12 years ago, right,
um.
So if you, if you just start to, if you start to look at the
(22:12):
smallest little things thathappen around you and it you
don't have to go to Japan, youdon't have to go to Africa.
But for me it's always been howdo I try to be as empathetic as
I can, which sometimes is assimple as, as you know, having a
(22:33):
smile on your face and andsaying please and thank you, and
asking people how their day isgoing?
Um, just to be able to get whatcomes after that right, which
is somebody asking a questionabout what do you do and how do
you do it?
Or hey, did you see that overthere, people see people, it's
things that other people observeand then pointing it out to you
.
Right, see people, it's thingsthat other people observe, and
(22:53):
then pointing it out to you.
Right, this is this may soundlike nonsense, this may sound
like, you know, just the captureof information that you might
not ever need, but if we thinkabout it and this is something I
, when I guest lecture at TexasState and at other universities,
is I tell students all the timeI say go for a long walk and
(23:15):
take your, take your AirPods out, right, take your, take your,
take your earphones out and andjust go for a walk and and
listen to the birds, listen tothe traffic, look around you
right and think about you knowwhat, what you're seeing, a
little bit, but just know thatthe sensory capture of the
(23:36):
experience is going to be uniqueto you and it's going to enrich
how you see something else.
And backing into this a growthmindset is also having
confidence that you'll alwaysfind a way right.
A growth mindset is also havingconfidence that you'll always
(24:20):
find a way right.
It's that, hey, I will alwayson the peripheral.
I need to understand theperipheral.
I need to keep my eye on that.
Matter what happens, I need tofind a way around it or a way
straight to it.
So to me, that's just aboutbeing observant.
It's just about buildingempathy with the world around
you, which actually justimproves everything.
It just improves your criticalthinking.
It improves your ability tograsp concepts that otherwise
(24:43):
were just foreign to you.
If they're coming, maybethey're coming from somebody you
don't agree with, right youknow.
It just helps in all thosecapacities.
Judy Oskam (24:54):
I think that's a great point to bring up.
You might have differing viewsfrom colleagues, but being open
to listen to that and then to me, I would see that AI could be
very empowering.
It could give you even moresuperpowers if you have that
empathetic growth mindset.
Tim Hayden (25:15):
Well, absolutely.
I mean, there's a lot of talkin Silicon Valley right now that
within our lifetimes there willbe unicorn companies, you know,
companies that are valued at abillion dollars or more, where
they only have one employeeright.
There are people who believewe'll see that very soon.
You know that certainly fallsin the in the phylum of
(25:38):
superpowers.
It absolutely does.
Sure, you know, but I, but Ithink that's just it is, if you,
you know, I, I can.
I can tell you when I have azoom call or a Microsoft Teams
call with a client and there'sno sensitive information that
we've talked about, it's just astate of the account or it's a
(25:59):
strategic ideation session,maybe it's just a new business
call, a system like Otter orReadai, taking those transcripts
(26:26):
and then going to Claude, whichis a large language model, and
giving Claude the transcriptsand saying can you?
You know this was a call withXYZ company.
We are discussing a probableopportunity to help them with
their data management.
Can you summarize this in 200words for me and give me five
next steps and do a draft emailfor me back to Greg, and we'll
just say and, and 10 nanosecondslater I have a draft of the
(26:46):
email.
The transcript was read and youknow if that does, if that's not
superpowers, right, that's not.
If that's not, if that's nottaking something that would have
taken me, you know, at least anhour to read the transcripts
and to cut and paste and then towordsmith.
You know, manually, I mean, ofcourse I.
(27:07):
I took the draft from Claudeand then I put my own voice into
it and I changed quite a bit.
But just that immediacy ofbeing able to start something,
you know, to get that initialdirection going, I think we'll
see more and more of, you know,an acceleration of the speed of
(27:29):
business, an acceleration ofdecision making, as we start to
see more applications oftechnology that are similar to
that.
Judy Oskam (27:37):
I love that.
Well, and look ahead five years.
Give us your, give us yourprediction.
Five years, that's what.
What is it going to be like forstudents graduating five years
from now?
Let's take it back to the, tothe university, to give you some
sort of a framework.
Tim Hayden (27:54):
Sure, sure, well, I mean, I think, things for
students to think about right.
Five years from now, we won'thear anyone say just Google,
that right, search is going tofundamentally change.
Search as a human need or ahuman behavior will always be
there.
Right, search is going tofundamentally change.
(28:15):
Search as a human need or ahuman behavior will always be
there.
Right?
I mean the internet is vast andit has answers.
Now we'll have the means to getthose answers and not just have
sponsored lists of companiesthat we have to click on and
then click through to the pagewe were looking for.
(28:35):
So I think you'll, you'll thinkof things if you, if you just
grasp that to say what is whatdoes this mean?
Right in terms of how we goabout marketing, how we go about
communications, how we go aboutresearch, whatever the case may
be, I think there'sopportunities to consider that.
(28:55):
I think there's also thisopportunity to understand how AI
is not just generative AI muchin the way we've been discussing
it.
It is how I think we'll startto see what's called invisible
experiences, where companieswill have so much data on us and
we've opted in and we'veconsented to them managing our
(29:18):
data that they'll start to dothings for us.
They'll start to send us thingswithout us asking for or
ordering them.
Right and, as I'm forecasting,that I would say I would tell
students is how would you showup different?
You know, how would you uniquelyapproach the opportunity to be
(29:39):
able to have a better finger onthe pulse of what's going on in
the world, what's going on withcustomer behavior, and be able
to show up different?
And that could be a supply chaintype conversation, it could be
a marketing or communicationstype conversation and it could
be something else, but I thinkthe big thing that's going to
(30:03):
happen in five years is justthat start thinking about what
it is you can do uniquely as ahuman that you're not going to
be able to do with AI.
I think that's a list that'salways going to be challenged,
because there's two people in acoffee shop out there who are
trying to automate things andtrying to put together the
(30:26):
slides to walk into a VC'soffice and raise a couple
million dollars to build anotherbot.
But you know, there will berobots, there will be
self-driving cars, there will bedoctors on call that have robot
nurses, you know, and there areall these things that are going
(30:46):
to happen, and a lot of it willhappen, probably as soon as
five years.
So I want to I want to stopshort of being really
prescriptive, because it's hardfor anybody to say what the
world's going to look like atthat point?
Judy Oskam (30:59):
Sure, yeah, well, how fun, how fun is that, tim?
Well, and I always, I alwayslike to ask my guests about
their, their personal strengths.
I'm a Gallup strengths coachand you might not have done the
Gallup strengths, cliftonstrengths finder.
But what, what are yourpersonal strengths?
Do you think what?
What do you, what do you thinkof or what do other people say
(31:21):
about?
Oh, tim is really because he'sstrong in this area.
Tim Hayden (31:28):
You know, I?
I think it really comes down tosome of the things we already
discussed.
You know I'm deep onrelationships.
Right, I'm short on thetransactional and deeper on the
relationship side of business,of leading a company, of
(31:54):
supporting my alma mater.
You know of spending time withmy family, right, I think people
would say that you know thatTim is more present than many
folks.
I'm not as present as I want tobe, um I?
(32:15):
I tend to stare at my phone toomuch, right?
Um, don't we all do you know,but um, I just think, um, I
think people would talk aboutempathy or and um, and it would
probably even say that, um,there's some creative value that
I bring into which I like to Iliken to be more strategic than
(32:36):
just straight creative but to totruly think beyond the
peripheral, right to what peopleused to say about thinking
outside the box, just thinkingmore holistically about business
opportunities or challenges,about business opportunities or
challenges.
(32:57):
I think that's it's one of theways that I do excel
professionally and I think it'sone of the reasons that clients
retain what we do, for ourability to think holistically
and maybe look a little furtherdown the road, you know, in
terms of what it is we're doingtoday and how can it be
leveraged, amortized orapplicable, not just something
that is temperamental orimmediate.
Judy Oskam (33:19):
I love that, and I love the focus on empathy as
well.
Tim, thank you so much forjoining me today, so fun.
Tim Hayden (33:26):
Thank you, Judy.
Judy Oskam (33:27):
We'll have you back, for sure.
Tim Hayden (33:29):
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
Judy Oskam (33:31):
Well, and thank you for listening to Stories of
Change and Creativity.
We'll put some informationabout Tim Hayden in the show
notes with some of thereferences he made during our
talk and, if you've got a storyto share or know someone who
does, reach out to me atjudyoskam.
com.
Thanks for listening.
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