October 5, 2025 • 25 mins
What’s your relationship with money? Do you worry about having enough? Does money guide all of your decisions?
In this episode of Stories of Change and Creativity, I talk with Mary Liz Burns about the psychology of money. She has more than two decades of experience in personal finance communications and media. Mary Liz has an MBA with a focus on financial psychology and is a certified senior advisor.
After a successful career in corporate communications and public relations — including 22 years with AARP — Mary Liz realized the missing piece in most money conversations: the human connection. Now, she helps people understand their personal “money stories” and develop healthier, more compassionate relationships with money.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why our relationship with money is emotional, not rational — and how fear and shame can hold us back
- The four money scripts that shape financial behavior
- How childhood experiences and “financial flashpoints” form our money beliefs
- How our relationship with money changes in different stages of life
- Practical steps to begin your own money awareness journey — where to start
Quotes
“My goal from now until the day I die is to reduce the fear and shame we have around money — and to help people have open, honest conversations, starting with themselves.” — Mary Liz Burns
“Financial education alone is not enough to change behavior. We have to bring the human piece to it.” — Mary Liz Burns
Resources & Links
- Take the free Money Scripts Test (by Dr. Brad Klontz)
- Learn more about Mary Liz Burns and her work in financial psychology https://www.marylizburns.money/
Note: This content is not intended as specific legal or financial advice, and listeners should consider their individual circumstances when applying this information and to seek professional assistance if needed.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Judy Oskam (00:02):
What's your relationship with money?
Do you worry, like me, abouthaving enough?
Are you anxious about money?
Well, welcome to Stories ofChange and Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam and I'm aprofessor at Texas State
University.
On this episode, I'm talkingwith Mary Liz Burns about the
psychology of money.
(00:23):
Mary Liz has more than twodecades of experience in
personal finance communicationsand media.
She has an MBA with a focus onfinancial psychology, and she's
a certified senior advisor.
Mary Liz doesn't sharefinancial advice like what to
buy and sell and when.
Mary Liz Burns (01:02):
You know, I have been fascinated by how my
relationship with money haschanged over the years.
Depending on, I can think backto some memories that we can
talk about as a young person andrealizing the importance of
money, or at least what Ithought was important about
money, and then realizing how Iused money sometimes, not in the
best ways.
And then as I'm lookingtowards, you know, my aging, you
(01:25):
know, time on this earth, I'verealized that there's so much
fear and shame that I feel, butalso with so many other people
how they feel about money.
And my goal from now until theday I die is to try to reduce
the fear and the shame that wehave and to have a more open
conversation about money, notonly with our friends and
family, but first withourselves.
(01:47):
And sometimes that's thehardest step.
Judy Oskam (01:49):
Well, but you didn't start in money.
You didn't start in thatindustry.
You had a big career in publicrelations and corporate
communication.
And how did you make thattransition?
Because that was a flip.
Mary Liz Burns (02:03):
Yes, you know, my studies were always in
communications.
So similar to you, like I lovethe idea of the megaphone and
how you can change publicperception many times by the
kind of campaigns you cancreate, you know, things that
are really relevant to people.
So I worked for AARP for over22 years, and I learned a lot
about aging, a lot abouthealthcare, a lot about
(02:24):
finances, you know, grandparentstaking care of grandchildren.
Like I did a lot of work inTennessee on that issue, trying
to help people stay on Medicaid,seeing the importance of social
security, especially as we age.
And I was lucky enough to workin our national office and
worked on some really bigcampaigns in our media
department and also in ourcommunications and marketing.
(02:45):
But you know, I felt like thecampaigns that I was doing, um,
asking people to save more forretirement or delay claiming
Social Security or manage yourcredit card debt, they're all
really important and there'ssome great messaging.
And that education is critical,but I was missing the human
connection because when I wouldtalk to people about these
(03:07):
campaigns, they would give metheir personal stories and say
why they felt even worsesometimes hearing some of these
messages.
Judy Oskam (03:15):
Sure.
Mary Liz Burns (03:15):
Because they realized they couldn't do it,
you know, and they wondered whatwas in it for them.
You know, the financialindustry doesn't seem to be
interested in people like me,they would say.
And I thought to myself,there's got to be a different
way to approach money than whatwe're doing.
And that's how I kind ofstumbled into the field of
financial psychology, which wecould talk about.
(03:36):
It just marries to me the ideasaround money and education, but
really puts the human in thecenter and starts with like how
people think and believe, whichI think is a key piece.
Judy Oskam (03:47):
Well, why do we struggle with our relationship
with money?
And I can tell you, I've I havestruggles as well, and I'm
still, I still think I neverhave enough, you know?
I never have enough.
So there's that.
And so as I'm aging, continueto age, but I'm always
interested in finding out how tolive my best life.
(04:08):
And how do I do that?
But why, why do we have such achallenge with money in the
relationship?
Mary Liz Burns (04:16):
You know, I've thought about that a lot.
And I think, first of all, whenwe're born, we don't have like
this money playbook that'sreadily available.
We we learn by observing, andso everybody has had different
upbringing.
Some people were uh living withtwo parents, like I was very
lucky.
My dad, you know, um uh wasself-made.
He had nothing growing up fromMilwaukee and he's self-made and
(04:38):
he was very proud of that.
And so my lessons aboutlearning about sort of what it
takes to own a business and thento be generous, because he gave
pensions to all of hisemployees as an insurance
company, which is like unheardof.
And I saw the importance oftithing to the church and those
things.
But I think if if I didn't havethose lessons, which a lot of
my friends didn't, you know,it's it becomes a struggle in
(05:01):
knowing where does money fitinto your life?
And you don't necessarily havethe right information at hand
because you're hearing fromother people that sometimes have
their own agendas and their ownideas about money.
And we're also we're fed somany things that test us and
sometimes trip us up.
If you go to college or even ifyou don't at 18, how many
(05:22):
credit card companies reach outto you to get a credit card, not
even knowing?
How about the mortgage thatmaybe you can or cannot afford
and so many people have gottenin trouble?
And student loans today.
So it depends on how you areset up, but then also how do you
learn about money and what it'sreally doing to your mental
health and to your physicalhealth and really taking stock
(05:45):
of it?
We don't have kind of thatready-made test like we do when
we go to the doctors, hopefully,every year to get a physical.
We don't sometimes know how todeal with money, especially when
it's challenging us.
So we have to be reallyintentional, and that's what I
hope that we can continue to dofrom conversations like this.
Judy Oskam (06:02):
Exactly.
Well, and I think uh, you know,our country is such a
consumer-driven country, and Ithink people see that, and you
have access to a lot of consumergoods, and I think that, and I
remember when when my husbandand I bought our first house,
they they told us that we didn'thave enough credit.
(06:22):
And I don't know, you might notbe able to buy a house, you
don't have enough credit.
And I said, as a as a young20-something, you know, mid-20s,
I said, I thought it was goodnot to have a lot of credit.
You know, I've always beentaught try and not have a lot of
credit.
So again, those mixed messagescome through, and which is why I
think you really decided to dowhat you do and go help
(06:44):
individuals with theirdecisions.
Um, but I think, you know,let's look, you know, look back
at our childhood.
You shared some of yours.
And I know in my case, I reallylearned a lot.
My dad was an entrepreneur andvery much of a self-starter,
self-made as well.
And my mom, they were marriedyoung and learned how to work
(07:06):
together, but they had tostruggle in their 60s, and I saw
them really having to rebuild,which I greatly admire, and
think, oh my gosh, how do theydo that?
And come out on top at the end.
So, I mean, I think it'schallenging to really explore
why do we think the way we thinkabout money?
Mary Liz Burns (07:27):
Yeah, I agree with you.
And I, you know, if I couldshare the story, um, you know,
when I was young, that really uhwhen I was asked first to do
some assignments aroundfinancial psychology, they want
you to look at your personalstory.
And so it was reflecting backon one of the earliest memories
I had about money.
And one of them was that, as Isaid, my dad was self-made.
(07:48):
And um, he the one thing heloved to do was to go out to
eat.
Loved it.
He liked to like take clientsor, you know, take his family.
And at five years old, he hadhe told me, I can bring my best
friend Beth, and we're gonna goto this fancy place called the
Maxwell House.
So we got dressed up.
I wore one of my best dresses.
My friend Beth was so excited.
It was a white tablecloth, youknow, fancy people coming
(08:11):
exactly, fawning all over us,flambays here, you know, variety
of things happening, like ashow.
And um, my dad had veal a laOscar.
And to this day, I had no ideawhat it was, but my Beth was
like, What is that?
What I took away from thatlesson was that I saw Beth be so
excited and so like to be withme and to be with our family.
(08:32):
And there's obviously expensivebill that was happening.
She didn't care about themoney, but to me, my lesson was
wow, I need to make enough moneythat I can take people out,
that I can show them a goodtime, and therefore they'll want
to be my friend.
And, you know, money is a is acurrency to keep people around
(08:52):
me.
And I bet you some of yourlisteners probably have had
something similar in that Istarted to use money to not to
buy friendships, but to securethem.
You know, like thinking, if Iget gifts for people, if I take
them out, if I am always the onepicking up the check.
And that got me in a lot oftrouble, especially in my 20s.
I had a lot of credit carddebt.
(09:13):
And I finally realized I wasgood enough not to only be using
money.
And I think money, it's such astigma and it's emotional, it's
not rational, that um, you know,it takes, it takes us trying to
figure out what that lookslike.
Judy Oskam (09:26):
Well, and I think there's the scarcity mindset and
the abundance mindset.
And I know I sort of grew upwith the idea and and I heard it
in my household.
It was well, if you if you wantto try this and go this
direction, then just find theway to do it.
Find the way instead of a no, Inever, I still don't like to
hear the word no.
So it's always like, where canI find the yes?
(09:49):
And so I started seeing moneyas as a resource.
And so uh I remember telling,telling my daughters, I've got
daughters in their 20s in their20s, each of them are in their
20s.
And uh, when they want to dosomething, I say, well, you have
to just find a way to go makemore money.
You just have to go find a wayto find that resource.
(10:10):
So I think that's more of theabundance mindset than the
scarcity, and that no, we can'tdo that because this is the
amount of money we make.
Mary Liz Burns (10:19):
You know, that's a great way to look at it.
Judy Oskam (10:21):
The finite resource of money, I think is something
that people get stuck on, maybe.
I don't know, you're the expertin that.
Mary Liz Burns (10:28):
No, I think you're exactly right.
I like the abundance andscarcity.
There's a lot of ways to lookat that.
But you know, when I I heardthe other day, someone I was
talking with about this, uh,they said they did like to say
no.
When a kid said, like, we wantto go on this fancy trip, you
know, the school trip, and maybethe family just doesn't can't
afford it right now.
Instead of saying no, becausethe kid learns, well, you know,
it's just my parents' fault,they say it's not in the budget.
(10:51):
And I think understanding thatthere's a plan, and many times
parents, you know, this is notat all about parents, you know,
we know we do the best we can.
And, you know, but the idea oflike learning that there are
some boundaries and that there'sa a reason, there's a plan to
this.
A lot of people don't talk totheir family about it.
And that's another thing,especially, you know, for kids
today, because they can buyalmost anything with one click
(11:14):
and they kind of forget, youknow, like where money comes
from, even if you didn't comefrom that, there's there's a lot
of resources to help you beable to have more productive
conversations, you know, and andlessons, you know, throughout
your time.
Judy Oskam (11:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
And and you know, you talk withand and and on your website,
and and we'll put the links downin the show notes and
everything.
You talk about the uh knowingyour money story.
How does someone start toreally understand what their
story is?
Is there like a framework forthat?
Mary Liz Burns (11:45):
Yeah, so you know, there's a lot of different
kinds of frameworks.
So you hear money stories,money scripts, you know, variety
of it.
I studied with doctors Brad andTed Klontz at Creighton
University, and that's where Igot my MBA of emphasis in
financial psychology.
I really like theirs.
And there's four basic moneyscripts.
The way you come to it first,though, is that you do think
(12:06):
about your financialflashpoints, you know what they
call, which is those kind ofpowerful events that stay with
us until adulthood.
You know, maybe there wastrauma, um, divorce, you know,
loss of job, bankruptcy, grew uprich or poor, like these things
that really shape who you are.
And that forms many timessubconsciously our money
beliefs.
(12:26):
And many times those things arepassed down even
generationally, like my parentswere from products of the
depression, you know, and likeand sort of the way that they
grew up in those pieces of it.
So these kind of money scripts,and I'll tell you the four of
them, and just know that it'snot a finite set of four in
terms of you might be part oftwo of them, two of the four,
but they really help me thinkthrough this piece of it.
(12:48):
One is money avoidance.
And think of money avoidance asrich people are greedy.
You know, I don't think Ideserve that money, or that
person definitely doesn'tdeserve that money, or, you
know, I don't know enough aboutmoney.
So therefore, what can I doabout that?
Um, the second one is calledmoney status.
And that's, you know, peoplewho self-worth equals net worth.
(13:11):
You know, it's like they're theones that are kind of flashing
the stuff in front of you, youknow, the the new cars.
They like to buy things thatare new.
And it's just showing thatyou've made it, you know, it's
so really important.
Then there's money focus, whichis a little different.
It's that if only I had moremoney, I'd be happier.
If only, you know, there's justmore abundant money that I'll
never have to worry aboutretirement.
(13:33):
I'll never, you know, money isthe answer to everything, to
every problem that's in my life.
And then there's moneyvigilance.
And that is more where you havea really healthy emergency
savings.
You know, you want to alwayslook at your statements.
You are, you know, constantlyworried about maybe running out
of money, but you're also likelynot to have credit card debt,
(13:53):
likely not to have a lot ofmortgage debt, like you're
pretty, you know, consistentwith that.
None of them have are good orbad.
I want to be really clear.
You know, we're all a littlebit of everything, but it does
help to frame like, what is itthat I believe about money?
Uh, how have my financialbehaviors kind of come across,
the outcomes I have as a resultof the story?
(14:15):
And knowing that story doesn'tmean you're stuck in the story.
It just means at least you havea baseline and understanding
where it's coming from andthinking through does it help
me?
Does it serve me well?
Or are there things about itthat I need to really think
about and analyze and thinkabout maybe some new approaches?
Judy Oskam (14:33):
That's very fascinating.
And I think number one and twoare really interesting.
I have a little three and four,I think.
Mary Liz Burns (14:40):
Yes, yes.
I would say for me, I'm I liketo think I'm always money
vigilant.
I mean, I am.
I do look at my things a lot.
But then I also, you know, uh alittle bit of uh sort of money
focused sometimes too.
Just like thinking, like, oh, Iwish, you know, if you look at
it too much, as they say, like,don't look at your your
statements all the time becauseit'll drive you crazy with the
(15:00):
with the economy.
But um, keeping it in thecenter is never a really good
idea.
And I think it's just it's hardnot to in today's world.
Judy Oskam (15:08):
Well, and I think too, I always tell people, uh,
anybody who's you know making adecision, don't make a decision
only based on money.
You've really got to look ateverything.
And I know people will take anew job for X number of dollars
more, and I think you've got toreally estimate all of the
things that go around thosedecisions, you know.
(15:28):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So money, money being um, Imean, I mean, you know, we know
what money is.
It's a it's a it's a commodity,it's a it's a resource.
But I mean, how do you describemoney?
How do you describe it?
Mary Liz Burns (15:41):
To me, it gives us agency, it allows us to um
make things hopefully come truefor us, especially as it comes
to helping others.
It helps us be able to create alife for people that we love if
we end up having a family oreven not with our friends.
Um, it it also gives us somefreedom.
(16:03):
You know, I've worked on a lotof campaigns kind of called
financial freedom.
And like, what does that mean?
To me, um, having money to beable to sustain a lifestyle that
um frankly, people use the wordcomfortable, and that really to
me sometimes uh sounds a littlebit uppity.
Um, I like it better that youthink of a life that can suit
what you want to do, yourpurpose in life, and gives you
(16:27):
more peace of mind.
And that's another reason why Ithink financial psychology is
critical.
I've seen so many studies thatright now people are losing
sleep, including Gen Z andmillennials, actually, quite a
bit because of the recession andthe COVID and then the drop in
the stock market in 2021.
You know, they're coming out.
My nephew's coming out from ajob market, and you know, it's
(16:47):
not easy right now to try tofind, you know, employment.
So people are losing sleep,they're more stressed than ever.
And divorces, you know, 20 to40 percent of divorces are due
to money challenges, you know,and you would think about
something else, but money isreally a big piece.
And so to me, money allows usto be able to uh relax a bit
(17:09):
into understanding that we havea purpose, that we could do the
things that really bring us joy,bring others joy, and help us
to be able to sleep at night,which I know is hard for a lot
of people.
Judy Oskam (17:19):
Yeah, it is, it is.
And I know that I've gotfriends of all ages that are in
different stages, but I alwayswant to tell them when you look
back, there's always beenhurdles, they've always been
challenges throughout the years.
Um, I just I just remember theidea of money and and um
security is really important.
(17:41):
And I know back when I was akid, my mom used to say, and of
course, this was of the age,it's just as easy to love a rich
man as a poor man.
And you know, you know, she's94 now, so you know, um, I
didn't really listen to her, andI wish I had, but that's okay.
But that's okay, it was forlove.
(18:02):
It was for love.
It's for love that's very rich,that's right, very rich, you
know.
That's worth it, that's verymuch worth it.
But but I think there's justsome some issues that people
bring, and again, that's part ofthat baggage, right?
Mary Liz Burns (18:15):
Yeah, and that's also how we change in our
relationship with money.
And I was thinking about kindof breaking it into three ages
when I talk about it.
When you're young, you'retrying to make money, right?
And that's what you'll see onTikTok and on Instagram, all the
ways to make passive income orincrease your money.
I do believe, especially forwomen to negotiate higher
salaries, uh, that's a key piecebecause women, I saw the stat,
(18:37):
75% of all wealth will beinfluenced by women by 2030.
75%.
So think about that, you know.
Um we have to women are alwayscajoled to do even more.
But I think, especially when itcomes to money, no matter who
is your financial boss,supposedly in the family, like
we all need to be involved.
And then when you'remiddle-aged, it's like you're
either supporting kids or you'resupporting friends, or you
(18:59):
know, you're trying to sort ofthink through how you can make
sure and pay off the mortgage orthink about having something
that's a little bit less debt.
Then when you're, you know,older, and I wonder if your mom
feels this way.
It is all about security andsafety.
Yes.
That's what money is.
It doesn't matter if you'resaying doesn't want to run out.
Yeah, it's just they feel, andI I have a big fear.
(19:20):
We don't have children, so Ihave a big fear of I don't know
if it I doubt anyone's gonnanecessarily take care of old
Mary Liz.
So I'm already thinking aboutwhat it means to be a solo ager.
My husband is 10 years older,and you know, I have to be
prepared for that.
So knowing that my money mayalso be providing me as like a
stability is so key.
(19:40):
And I'm part of Gen Gen X, andthis generation started to be
the one, and it may be also truefor you too, that for everybody
here on the listening, butpensions are bygone.
I mean, you know, people arenot having a floor of this like
healthy pensions any longer.
This country is all aboutreally pretty much self-pay and
self-directed.
(20:01):
And again, it goes back to wedidn't have a money playbook.
So what are we supposed to do?
How are we supposed to learn?
And that's where where I fitin, I think, is I'm not, I
really want to just talk topeople about money and help them
feel better to help them makebetter decisions.
Where other professionals, ifthey decide to have money
managed or to invest insomething, they at least know
the questions they can ask.
(20:21):
They know where they're comingfrom, and that's where I'm gonna
get my satisfaction.
Judy Oskam (20:26):
Oh, I I I love that.
And I love how you'vetransitioned your career into
one of purpose and somethingthat you want to really focus on
for the rest of your life tohelp others as we go through
there, because money's not goingaway and we're still gonna need
it.
And again, as much as as muchas people complain about um, you
(20:48):
know, our consumer-drivensociety, that's just a reality.
And it's like that worldwide aswell.
So not just here.
That was true.
It's true.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, if if uh, you know,listeners are are are wondering,
well, where do I start withthis?
What what do I do first toreally better understand my own
(21:09):
psychology around money?
Where do they start?
Mary Liz Burns (21:12):
Yes.
So, you know, let me first justsay that this whole
conversation is for anybodyacross the income spectrum.
This isn't about if you have alot of money now, exactly or how
much debt you have, it's foreverybody.
So the first thing is I reallylike Brad Klantz's uh money
script test and the link I'llgive it to you that you can be
able to put into the show notes,but it's
https://www.bradklontz.com/moneyscriptstestmoney scripts test.
(21:34):
And so you it's for free.
You will give them your emailso you get the results back.
Sure.
But it's a great way, it's areally detailed questionnaire
and kind of gives you a sense inthose four scripts I talked
about, like kind of where do youfall?
And again, there's no right orwrong.
So that's what's key.
Um, and then the second thingI'd say is, you know, be
compassionate with yourself.
You know, I partly it's if ifyou've been avoiding opening up
(21:57):
some bills, or if you feel likeyou just you're not sure where
to start, the first thing is tobe compassionate with yourself,
but just say, you can do this.
I need to become more aware ofwhere I am financially.
You don't need to create afancy budget.
You can just look at your bankstatement.
You can just think through whatare some of the big debts and
things that might be causing yousome stress.
(22:17):
And there are a lot of peoplewho could help you kind of get
started.
I'm a big believer in smallsteps.
So know where you are with yourmoney and then maybe get a
goal.
I know it's still you got, youknow, a few months left of this
year.
Maybe there's one thing inparticular you could try to
tackle and really come up withsome help, even your friends and
family to help you be able toaccomplish something based on a
(22:40):
goal, you know, or even have aconversation with some of your
friends and family about whatyou're feeling.
So a lot of times just openingup the door, you'll find a lot
more support there.
So do the test and then alsojust don't be afraid to talk to
your friends and family.
You know, it's key.
Judy Oskam (22:56):
Maybe make a plan to make a plan, right?
Mary Liz Burns (22:58):
Make a plan to make a plan.
Get started.
Absolutely.
Judy Oskam (23:01):
Yeah, just kind of take it, take a small step.
Mary Liz Burns (23:03):
And then it touches everybody.
And that's that's the otherthing I'd say is that this field
is not just only for thefinancial industry.
Like if you deal with yourparents or you deal with, you
know, clients on your own, or ifyou're an employer and you're
wondering why your employee ismissing time, sometimes it's due
to financial challenges.
Like we all have to have a roleto play in making sure that
(23:25):
people understand there areresources and that they're not
alone.
Judy Oskam (23:29):
And that they, we individuals have uh control, or
that's right.
Uh, we have the power to tomake changes.
I think that's a real keybecause I think that feeling of,
well, I don't make that muchmoney, or I don't really deserve
to be in those spaces, youreally do, right?
Mary Liz Burns (23:49):
I mean, absolutely.
And even if, say, you reallyfeel and you've done everything,
it's like, I really don't thinkI can save anymore.
Just being aware of where youare, being comfortable with who
you are, and then just knowingyou have time to plan, because
maybe you do have to adjust yourplans based on where you are,
but it's it starts withawareness.
It starts with that confidenceand that honesty with us, which
(24:11):
with ourselves, which is noteasy.
Financial education alone andthe data backs it up, is not
enough to change behavior.
Like you need it, but it's notenough.
We have to bring the humanpiece to this.
So, everybody who has amegaphone, which like you do and
like other people do, I'minterested in talking with you.
Judy Oskam (24:27):
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
Well, thank you so much forjumping in and sharing and
educating us about money becauseit's what a what a great
important topic for us.
Thank you, Mary Liz.
Mary Liz Burns (24:39):
Thank you so much for the opportunity, Judy.
It was great.
Judy Oskam (24:43):
Well, some key takeaways from me.
Learning your money story.
It's really interesting.
I took the free Klontz MoneyScript inventory, the one that
Mary Liz recommended.
And I wasn't surprised to learnthat I do have some anxiety
around money.
I'll leave the link to takethis assessment in the show
notes.
Uh my results ended up in thespam folder, so watch for that
(25:06):
if you do take the assessment.
Another takeaway, understandthe stage that you're in with
regard to money and theimportance of taking small
steps.
I'm making a plan to make aplan.
I love it.
Well, and there's still timefor me before the end of the
year to make some positivechanges.
You can do it too.
I'm already working on myhomework.
(25:28):
Well, I hope you enjoyed thisconversation.
I'm Judy Oskam.
Thanks for listening.
What's your relationship with money?
Do you worry, like me, abouthaving enough?
Are you anxious about money?
Well, welcome to Stories ofChange and Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam and I'm aprofessor at Texas State
University.
On this episode, I'm talkingwith Mary Liz Burns about the
psychology of money.
(00:23):
Mary Liz has more than twodecades of experience in
personal finance communicationsand media.
She has an MBA with a focus onfinancial psychology, and she's
a certified senior advisor.
Mary Liz doesn't sharefinancial advice like what to
buy and sell and when.
Mary Liz Burns (01:02):
You know, I have been fascinated by how my
relationship with money haschanged over the years.
Depending on, I can think backto some memories that we can
talk about as a young person andrealizing the importance of
money, or at least what Ithought was important about
money, and then realizing how Iused money sometimes, not in the
best ways.
And then as I'm lookingtowards, you know, my aging, you
(01:25):
know, time on this earth, I'verealized that there's so much
fear and shame that I feel, butalso with so many other people
how they feel about money.
And my goal from now until theday I die is to try to reduce
the fear and the shame that wehave and to have a more open
conversation about money, notonly with our friends and
family, but first withourselves.
(01:47):
And sometimes that's thehardest step.
Judy Oskam (01:49):
Well, but you didn't start in money.
You didn't start in thatindustry.
You had a big career in publicrelations and corporate
communication.
And how did you make thattransition?
Because that was a flip.
Mary Liz Burns (02:03):
Yes, you know, my studies were always in
communications.
So similar to you, like I lovethe idea of the megaphone and
how you can change publicperception many times by the
kind of campaigns you cancreate, you know, things that
are really relevant to people.
So I worked for AARP for over22 years, and I learned a lot
about aging, a lot abouthealthcare, a lot about
(02:24):
finances, you know, grandparentstaking care of grandchildren.
Like I did a lot of work inTennessee on that issue, trying
to help people stay on Medicaid,seeing the importance of social
security, especially as we age.
And I was lucky enough to workin our national office and
worked on some really bigcampaigns in our media
department and also in ourcommunications and marketing.
(02:45):
But you know, I felt like thecampaigns that I was doing, um,
asking people to save more forretirement or delay claiming
Social Security or manage yourcredit card debt, they're all
really important and there'ssome great messaging.
And that education is critical,but I was missing the human
connection because when I wouldtalk to people about these
(03:07):
campaigns, they would give metheir personal stories and say
why they felt even worsesometimes hearing some of these
messages.
Judy Oskam (03:15):
Sure.
Mary Liz Burns (03:15):
Because they realized they couldn't do it,
you know, and they wondered whatwas in it for them.
You know, the financialindustry doesn't seem to be
interested in people like me,they would say.
And I thought to myself,there's got to be a different
way to approach money than whatwe're doing.
And that's how I kind ofstumbled into the field of
financial psychology, which wecould talk about.
(03:36):
It just marries to me the ideasaround money and education, but
really puts the human in thecenter and starts with like how
people think and believe, whichI think is a key piece.
Judy Oskam (03:47):
Well, why do we struggle with our relationship
with money?
And I can tell you, I've I havestruggles as well, and I'm
still, I still think I neverhave enough, you know?
I never have enough.
So there's that.
And so as I'm aging, continueto age, but I'm always
interested in finding out how tolive my best life.
(04:08):
And how do I do that?
But why, why do we have such achallenge with money in the
relationship?
Mary Liz Burns (04:16):
You know, I've thought about that a lot.
And I think, first of all, whenwe're born, we don't have like
this money playbook that'sreadily available.
We we learn by observing, andso everybody has had different
upbringing.
Some people were uh living withtwo parents, like I was very
lucky.
My dad, you know, um uh wasself-made.
He had nothing growing up fromMilwaukee and he's self-made and
(04:38):
he was very proud of that.
And so my lessons aboutlearning about sort of what it
takes to own a business and thento be generous, because he gave
pensions to all of hisemployees as an insurance
company, which is like unheardof.
And I saw the importance oftithing to the church and those
things.
But I think if if I didn't havethose lessons, which a lot of
my friends didn't, you know,it's it becomes a struggle in
(05:01):
knowing where does money fitinto your life?
And you don't necessarily havethe right information at hand
because you're hearing fromother people that sometimes have
their own agendas and their ownideas about money.
And we're also we're fed somany things that test us and
sometimes trip us up.
If you go to college or even ifyou don't at 18, how many
(05:22):
credit card companies reach outto you to get a credit card, not
even knowing?
How about the mortgage thatmaybe you can or cannot afford
and so many people have gottenin trouble?
And student loans today.
So it depends on how you areset up, but then also how do you
learn about money and what it'sreally doing to your mental
health and to your physicalhealth and really taking stock
(05:45):
of it?
We don't have kind of thatready-made test like we do when
we go to the doctors, hopefully,every year to get a physical.
We don't sometimes know how todeal with money, especially when
it's challenging us.
So we have to be reallyintentional, and that's what I
hope that we can continue to dofrom conversations like this.
Judy Oskam (06:02):
Exactly.
Well, and I think uh, you know,our country is such a
consumer-driven country, and Ithink people see that, and you
have access to a lot of consumergoods, and I think that, and I
remember when when my husbandand I bought our first house,
they they told us that we didn'thave enough credit.
(06:22):
And I don't know, you might notbe able to buy a house, you
don't have enough credit.
And I said, as a as a young20-something, you know, mid-20s,
I said, I thought it was goodnot to have a lot of credit.
You know, I've always beentaught try and not have a lot of
credit.
So again, those mixed messagescome through, and which is why I
think you really decided to dowhat you do and go help
(06:44):
individuals with theirdecisions.
Um, but I think, you know,let's look, you know, look back
at our childhood.
You shared some of yours.
And I know in my case, I reallylearned a lot.
My dad was an entrepreneur andvery much of a self-starter,
self-made as well.
And my mom, they were marriedyoung and learned how to work
(07:06):
together, but they had tostruggle in their 60s, and I saw
them really having to rebuild,which I greatly admire, and
think, oh my gosh, how do theydo that?
And come out on top at the end.
So, I mean, I think it'schallenging to really explore
why do we think the way we thinkabout money?
Mary Liz Burns (07:27):
Yeah, I agree with you.
And I, you know, if I couldshare the story, um, you know,
when I was young, that really uhwhen I was asked first to do
some assignments aroundfinancial psychology, they want
you to look at your personalstory.
And so it was reflecting backon one of the earliest memories
I had about money.
And one of them was that, as Isaid, my dad was self-made.
(07:48):
And um, he the one thing heloved to do was to go out to
eat.
Loved it.
He liked to like take clientsor, you know, take his family.
And at five years old, he hadhe told me, I can bring my best
friend Beth, and we're gonna goto this fancy place called the
Maxwell House.
So we got dressed up.
I wore one of my best dresses.
My friend Beth was so excited.
It was a white tablecloth, youknow, fancy people coming
(08:11):
exactly, fawning all over us,flambays here, you know, variety
of things happening, like ashow.
And um, my dad had veal a laOscar.
And to this day, I had no ideawhat it was, but my Beth was
like, What is that?
What I took away from thatlesson was that I saw Beth be so
excited and so like to be withme and to be with our family.
(08:32):
And there's obviously expensivebill that was happening.
She didn't care about themoney, but to me, my lesson was
wow, I need to make enough moneythat I can take people out,
that I can show them a goodtime, and therefore they'll want
to be my friend.
And, you know, money is a is acurrency to keep people around
(08:52):
me.
And I bet you some of yourlisteners probably have had
something similar in that Istarted to use money to not to
buy friendships, but to securethem.
You know, like thinking, if Iget gifts for people, if I take
them out, if I am always the onepicking up the check.
And that got me in a lot oftrouble, especially in my 20s.
I had a lot of credit carddebt.
(09:13):
And I finally realized I wasgood enough not to only be using
money.
And I think money, it's such astigma and it's emotional, it's
not rational, that um, you know,it takes, it takes us trying to
figure out what that lookslike.
Judy Oskam (09:26):
Well, and I think there's the scarcity mindset and
the abundance mindset.
And I know I sort of grew upwith the idea and and I heard it
in my household.
It was well, if you if you wantto try this and go this
direction, then just find theway to do it.
Find the way instead of a no, Inever, I still don't like to
hear the word no.
So it's always like, where canI find the yes?
(09:49):
And so I started seeing moneyas as a resource.
And so uh I remember telling,telling my daughters, I've got
daughters in their 20s in their20s, each of them are in their
20s.
And uh, when they want to dosomething, I say, well, you have
to just find a way to go makemore money.
You just have to go find a wayto find that resource.
(10:10):
So I think that's more of theabundance mindset than the
scarcity, and that no, we can'tdo that because this is the
amount of money we make.
Mary Liz Burns (10:19):
You know, that's a great way to look at it.
Judy Oskam (10:21):
The finite resource of money, I think is something
that people get stuck on, maybe.
I don't know, you're the expertin that.
Mary Liz Burns (10:28):
No, I think you're exactly right.
I like the abundance andscarcity.
There's a lot of ways to lookat that.
But you know, when I I heardthe other day, someone I was
talking with about this, uh,they said they did like to say
no.
When a kid said, like, we wantto go on this fancy trip, you
know, the school trip, and maybethe family just doesn't can't
afford it right now.
Instead of saying no, becausethe kid learns, well, you know,
it's just my parents' fault,they say it's not in the budget.
(10:51):
And I think understanding thatthere's a plan, and many times
parents, you know, this is notat all about parents, you know,
we know we do the best we can.
And, you know, but the idea oflike learning that there are
some boundaries and that there'sa a reason, there's a plan to
this.
A lot of people don't talk totheir family about it.
And that's another thing,especially, you know, for kids
today, because they can buyalmost anything with one click
(11:14):
and they kind of forget, youknow, like where money comes
from, even if you didn't comefrom that, there's there's a lot
of resources to help you beable to have more productive
conversations, you know, and andlessons, you know, throughout
your time.
Judy Oskam (11:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
And and you know, you talk withand and and on your website,
and and we'll put the links downin the show notes and
everything.
You talk about the uh knowingyour money story.
How does someone start toreally understand what their
story is?
Is there like a framework forthat?
Mary Liz Burns (11:45):
Yeah, so you know, there's a lot of different
kinds of frameworks.
So you hear money stories,money scripts, you know, variety
of it.
I studied with doctors Brad andTed Klontz at Creighton
University, and that's where Igot my MBA of emphasis in
financial psychology.
I really like theirs.
And there's four basic moneyscripts.
The way you come to it first,though, is that you do think
(12:06):
about your financialflashpoints, you know what they
call, which is those kind ofpowerful events that stay with
us until adulthood.
You know, maybe there wastrauma, um, divorce, you know,
loss of job, bankruptcy, grew uprich or poor, like these things
that really shape who you are.
And that forms many timessubconsciously our money
beliefs.
(12:26):
And many times those things arepassed down even
generationally, like my parentswere from products of the
depression, you know, and likeand sort of the way that they
grew up in those pieces of it.
So these kind of money scripts,and I'll tell you the four of
them, and just know that it'snot a finite set of four in
terms of you might be part oftwo of them, two of the four,
but they really help me thinkthrough this piece of it.
(12:48):
One is money avoidance.
And think of money avoidance asrich people are greedy.
You know, I don't think Ideserve that money, or that
person definitely doesn'tdeserve that money, or, you
know, I don't know enough aboutmoney.
So therefore, what can I doabout that?
Um, the second one is calledmoney status.
And that's, you know, peoplewho self-worth equals net worth.
(13:11):
You know, it's like they're theones that are kind of flashing
the stuff in front of you, youknow, the the new cars.
They like to buy things thatare new.
And it's just showing thatyou've made it, you know, it's
so really important.
Then there's money focus, whichis a little different.
It's that if only I had moremoney, I'd be happier.
If only, you know, there's justmore abundant money that I'll
never have to worry aboutretirement.
(13:33):
I'll never, you know, money isthe answer to everything, to
every problem that's in my life.
And then there's moneyvigilance.
And that is more where you havea really healthy emergency
savings.
You know, you want to alwayslook at your statements.
You are, you know, constantlyworried about maybe running out
of money, but you're also likelynot to have credit card debt,
(13:53):
likely not to have a lot ofmortgage debt, like you're
pretty, you know, consistentwith that.
None of them have are good orbad.
I want to be really clear.
You know, we're all a littlebit of everything, but it does
help to frame like, what is itthat I believe about money?
Uh, how have my financialbehaviors kind of come across,
the outcomes I have as a resultof the story?
(14:15):
And knowing that story doesn'tmean you're stuck in the story.
It just means at least you havea baseline and understanding
where it's coming from andthinking through does it help
me?
Does it serve me well?
Or are there things about itthat I need to really think
about and analyze and thinkabout maybe some new approaches?
Judy Oskam (14:33):
That's very fascinating.
And I think number one and twoare really interesting.
I have a little three and four,I think.
Mary Liz Burns (14:40):
Yes, yes.
I would say for me, I'm I liketo think I'm always money
vigilant.
I mean, I am.
I do look at my things a lot.
But then I also, you know, uh alittle bit of uh sort of money
focused sometimes too.
Just like thinking, like, oh, Iwish, you know, if you look at
it too much, as they say, like,don't look at your your
statements all the time becauseit'll drive you crazy with the
(15:00):
with the economy.
But um, keeping it in thecenter is never a really good
idea.
And I think it's just it's hardnot to in today's world.
Judy Oskam (15:08):
Well, and I think too, I always tell people, uh,
anybody who's you know making adecision, don't make a decision
only based on money.
You've really got to look ateverything.
And I know people will take anew job for X number of dollars
more, and I think you've got toreally estimate all of the
things that go around thosedecisions, you know.
(15:28):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So money, money being um, Imean, I mean, you know, we know
what money is.
It's a it's a it's a commodity,it's a it's a resource.
But I mean, how do you describemoney?
How do you describe it?
Mary Liz Burns (15:41):
To me, it gives us agency, it allows us to um
make things hopefully come truefor us, especially as it comes
to helping others.
It helps us be able to create alife for people that we love if
we end up having a family oreven not with our friends.
Um, it it also gives us somefreedom.
(16:03):
You know, I've worked on a lotof campaigns kind of called
financial freedom.
And like, what does that mean?
To me, um, having money to beable to sustain a lifestyle that
um frankly, people use the wordcomfortable, and that really to
me sometimes uh sounds a littlebit uppity.
Um, I like it better that youthink of a life that can suit
what you want to do, yourpurpose in life, and gives you
(16:27):
more peace of mind.
And that's another reason why Ithink financial psychology is
critical.
I've seen so many studies thatright now people are losing
sleep, including Gen Z andmillennials, actually, quite a
bit because of the recession andthe COVID and then the drop in
the stock market in 2021.
You know, they're coming out.
My nephew's coming out from ajob market, and you know, it's
(16:47):
not easy right now to try tofind, you know, employment.
So people are losing sleep,they're more stressed than ever.
And divorces, you know, 20 to40 percent of divorces are due
to money challenges, you know,and you would think about
something else, but money isreally a big piece.
And so to me, money allows usto be able to uh relax a bit
(17:09):
into understanding that we havea purpose, that we could do the
things that really bring us joy,bring others joy, and help us
to be able to sleep at night,which I know is hard for a lot
of people.
Judy Oskam (17:19):
Yeah, it is, it is.
And I know that I've gotfriends of all ages that are in
different stages, but I alwayswant to tell them when you look
back, there's always beenhurdles, they've always been
challenges throughout the years.
Um, I just I just remember theidea of money and and um
security is really important.
(17:41):
And I know back when I was akid, my mom used to say, and of
course, this was of the age,it's just as easy to love a rich
man as a poor man.
And you know, you know, she's94 now, so you know, um, I
didn't really listen to her, andI wish I had, but that's okay.
But that's okay, it was forlove.
(18:02):
It was for love.
It's for love that's very rich,that's right, very rich, you
know.
That's worth it, that's verymuch worth it.
But but I think there's justsome some issues that people
bring, and again, that's part ofthat baggage, right?
Mary Liz Burns (18:15):
Yeah, and that's also how we change in our
relationship with money.
And I was thinking about kindof breaking it into three ages
when I talk about it.
When you're young, you'retrying to make money, right?
And that's what you'll see onTikTok and on Instagram, all the
ways to make passive income orincrease your money.
I do believe, especially forwomen to negotiate higher
salaries, uh, that's a key piecebecause women, I saw the stat,
(18:37):
75% of all wealth will beinfluenced by women by 2030.
75%.
So think about that, you know.
Um we have to women are alwayscajoled to do even more.
But I think, especially when itcomes to money, no matter who
is your financial boss,supposedly in the family, like
we all need to be involved.
And then when you'remiddle-aged, it's like you're
either supporting kids or you'resupporting friends, or you
(18:59):
know, you're trying to sort ofthink through how you can make
sure and pay off the mortgage orthink about having something
that's a little bit less debt.
Then when you're, you know,older, and I wonder if your mom
feels this way.
It is all about security andsafety.
Yes.
That's what money is.
It doesn't matter if you'resaying doesn't want to run out.
Yeah, it's just they feel, andI I have a big fear.
(19:20):
We don't have children, so Ihave a big fear of I don't know
if it I doubt anyone's gonnanecessarily take care of old
Mary Liz.
So I'm already thinking aboutwhat it means to be a solo ager.
My husband is 10 years older,and you know, I have to be
prepared for that.
So knowing that my money mayalso be providing me as like a
stability is so key.
(19:40):
And I'm part of Gen Gen X, andthis generation started to be
the one, and it may be also truefor you too, that for everybody
here on the listening, butpensions are bygone.
I mean, you know, people arenot having a floor of this like
healthy pensions any longer.
This country is all aboutreally pretty much self-pay and
self-directed.
(20:01):
And again, it goes back to wedidn't have a money playbook.
So what are we supposed to do?
How are we supposed to learn?
And that's where where I fitin, I think, is I'm not, I
really want to just talk topeople about money and help them
feel better to help them makebetter decisions.
Where other professionals, ifthey decide to have money
managed or to invest insomething, they at least know
the questions they can ask.
(20:21):
They know where they're comingfrom, and that's where I'm gonna
get my satisfaction.
Judy Oskam (20:26):
Oh, I I I love that.
And I love how you'vetransitioned your career into
one of purpose and somethingthat you want to really focus on
for the rest of your life tohelp others as we go through
there, because money's not goingaway and we're still gonna need
it.
And again, as much as as muchas people complain about um, you
(20:48):
know, our consumer-drivensociety, that's just a reality.
And it's like that worldwide aswell.
So not just here.
That was true.
It's true.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, if if uh, you know,listeners are are are wondering,
well, where do I start withthis?
What what do I do first toreally better understand my own
(21:09):
psychology around money?
Where do they start?
Mary Liz Burns (21:12):
Yes.
So, you know, let me first justsay that this whole
conversation is for anybodyacross the income spectrum.
This isn't about if you have alot of money now, exactly or how
much debt you have, it's foreverybody.
So the first thing is I reallylike Brad Klantz's uh money
script test and the link I'llgive it to you that you can be
able to put into the show notes,but it's
https://www.bradklontz.com/moneyscriptstestmoney scripts test.
(21:34):
And so you it's for free.
You will give them your emailso you get the results back.
Sure.
But it's a great way, it's areally detailed questionnaire
and kind of gives you a sense inthose four scripts I talked
about, like kind of where do youfall?
And again, there's no right orwrong.
So that's what's key.
Um, and then the second thingI'd say is, you know, be
compassionate with yourself.
You know, I partly it's if ifyou've been avoiding opening up
(21:57):
some bills, or if you feel likeyou just you're not sure where
to start, the first thing is tobe compassionate with yourself,
but just say, you can do this.
I need to become more aware ofwhere I am financially.
You don't need to create afancy budget.
You can just look at your bankstatement.
You can just think through whatare some of the big debts and
things that might be causing yousome stress.
(22:17):
And there are a lot of peoplewho could help you kind of get
started.
I'm a big believer in smallsteps.
So know where you are with yourmoney and then maybe get a
goal.
I know it's still you got, youknow, a few months left of this
year.
Maybe there's one thing inparticular you could try to
tackle and really come up withsome help, even your friends and
family to help you be able toaccomplish something based on a
(22:40):
goal, you know, or even have aconversation with some of your
friends and family about whatyou're feeling.
So a lot of times just openingup the door, you'll find a lot
more support there.
So do the test and then alsojust don't be afraid to talk to
your friends and family.
You know, it's key.
Judy Oskam (22:56):
Maybe make a plan to make a plan, right?
Mary Liz Burns (22:58):
Make a plan to make a plan.
Get started.
Absolutely.
Judy Oskam (23:01):
Yeah, just kind of take it, take a small step.
Mary Liz Burns (23:03):
And then it touches everybody.
And that's that's the otherthing I'd say is that this field
is not just only for thefinancial industry.
Like if you deal with yourparents or you deal with, you
know, clients on your own, or ifyou're an employer and you're
wondering why your employee ismissing time, sometimes it's due
to financial challenges.
Like we all have to have a roleto play in making sure that
(23:25):
people understand there areresources and that they're not
alone.
Judy Oskam (23:29):
And that they, we individuals have uh control, or
that's right.
Uh, we have the power to tomake changes.
I think that's a real keybecause I think that feeling of,
well, I don't make that muchmoney, or I don't really deserve
to be in those spaces, youreally do, right?
Mary Liz Burns (23:49):
I mean, absolutely.
And even if, say, you reallyfeel and you've done everything,
it's like, I really don't thinkI can save anymore.
Just being aware of where youare, being comfortable with who
you are, and then just knowingyou have time to plan, because
maybe you do have to adjust yourplans based on where you are,
but it's it starts withawareness.
It starts with that confidenceand that honesty with us, which
(24:11):
with ourselves, which is noteasy.
Financial education alone andthe data backs it up, is not
enough to change behavior.
Like you need it, but it's notenough.
We have to bring the humanpiece to this.
So, everybody who has amegaphone, which like you do and
like other people do, I'minterested in talking with you.
Judy Oskam (24:27):
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
Well, thank you so much forjumping in and sharing and
educating us about money becauseit's what a what a great
important topic for us.
Thank you, Mary Liz.
Mary Liz Burns (24:39):
Thank you so much for the opportunity, Judy.
It was great.
Judy Oskam (24:43):
Well, some key takeaways from me.
Learning your money story.
It's really interesting.
I took the free Klontz MoneyScript inventory, the one that
Mary Liz recommended.
And I wasn't surprised to learnthat I do have some anxiety
around money.
I'll leave the link to takethis assessment in the show
notes.
Uh my results ended up in thespam folder, so watch for that
(25:06):
if you do take the assessment.
Another takeaway, understandthe stage that you're in with
regard to money and theimportance of taking small
steps.
I'm making a plan to make aplan.
I love it.
Well, and there's still timefor me before the end of the
year to make some positivechanges.
You can do it too.
I'm already working on myhomework.
(25:28):
Well, I hope you enjoyed thisconversation.
I'm Judy Oskam.
Thanks for listening.
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