November 19, 2025 • 35 mins
What if celebration isn’t something “extra,” but something essential to living a meaningful, connected life? If you're like me, you're always looking for reasons to celebrate and enjoy life.
In this episode of Stories of Change and Creativity, I sit down with Dr. R. Jon McGee—anthropologist, author, and longtime Texas State University professor— to explore the topic of celebration. We met at the Live Oak Podcast Studio on the campus of Texas State University.
For more than forty years, Dr. McGee lived with and learned from Maya communities in southern Mexico. He explained how rituals create order in chaotic times and help people navigate change.
Inside Maya Ritual Life
Professor McGee takes us inside ceremonies shaped by rainforest ecosystems and centuries of tradition—
- incense drifting
- prayers spoken in a distinct ritual voice
- balché, a fermented mead used to open a sacred, altered state
He reveals how metaphors woven into healing incantations—birds, winds, heat, and fever—carry cultural memory and symbolic meaning.
Why Rituals Matter in Our Everyday Lives
From Christmas and communion to Thanksgiving tables and graduation, Professor McGee helps us see how our own traditions carry histories and stories forward. These familiar symbols—colors, foods, candles, music—are anchors that help us mark time and feel connected.
How to Bring More Celebration Into Your Life
If you’re craving more meaning, we discuss some practical ways to create moments of celebration:
- Gather the people who matter most
- Choose symbols your group already loves
- Engage all five senses
- Make space for recognition and storytelling
- Keep it small—simple gestures can make a big difference
How do you celebrate? I’d love to hear.
If you enjoyed this episode subscribe, share with a friend who might need to celebrate more often, and leave a review. Tell me the one ritual you’d never give up.
Learn more about Dr. R. Jon McGee here.
Recorded at Live Oak Studios on the campus of Texas State University.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Judy Oskam (00:02):
Welcome to Stories of Change and Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam, a professor inthe School of Journalism and
Mass Communication at TexasState University.
I'm really glad you're here.
And I want to share with youthat the older I get, the more
I've come to understand thatcelebration isn't only something
we do, it's something we need.
(00:24):
It's found not only in life'sbiggest achievements, which we
always tend to recognize, butalso in the small, everyday,
daily rituals that anchor ouridentity.
And that idea brings us totoday's conversation.
On this episode, I'm exploringthis deeper truth with Dr.
(00:45):
Jon McGee.
Dr.
McGee is an anthropologist andprofessor at Texas State
University.
And for more than 40 years, Dr.
McGee has studied Mayacommunities in southern Mexico.
Through his research on ritualand ceremony, he's discovered
that celebration is more than anevent.
(01:07):
It's a way people understandchange and make meaning.
Well, together we'll explorehow rituals evolve and why it's
important for us to find ways tocelebrate in our own daily
lives.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Dr. Jon McGee (01:26):
This is my 41st year at Texas State.
I came in, I think it was 1985.
And most of my career I'veworked with Maya in southern
Mexico.
And I lived in a community ofpeople who were not Christian.
And so I spent about the firstdecade of my work studying their
(01:51):
rituals and mythology and howthat fit into other aspects of
their society.
Judy Oskam (01:58):
Well, what led you down there in the first place?
Dr. Jon McGee (02:02):
Well, I have a diverse religious background.
My mother was Mennonite, myfather was Episcopalian via
Catholicism.
I was baptized by aPresbyterian minister, and you
know, so I had a lot of re Igrew up being interested in
religion and did a master'sthesis looking at the uh rich
(02:27):
faith healing rituals ofevangelical in evangelical
churches.
And then just when I wasworking on my PhD, I actually
discovered the folks uh that Iworked with by accident and just
fell into that opportunity, andI worked with them for over 30
(02:50):
years.
Judy Oskam (02:50):
Oh my gosh.
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Jon McGee (02:52):
Yeah, it's very rewarding.
Judy Oskam (02:54):
Well, and you've gotten to know them and go back,
and you know them by name.
Yeah.
And so you you've kind of livedwith them as family.
Dr. Jon McGee (03:03):
Right.
Yeah.
And I miss them a great dealnow because I can't.
I mean, once I grew up, right,and married, started a family,
my ability to spend a lot oftime down there was, you know,
curtailed a bit.
But I I communicate with peoplein this community now by
WhatsApp, which shows you thetechnology.
Judy Oskam (03:25):
Yeah.
Dr. Jon McGee (03:26):
Yeah.
unknown (03:26):
Yeah.
Judy Oskam (03:27):
Yeah.
Well, and when you firststarted going down there, what
was it that struck you uh uhabout the differences?
And this is a broad questionbetween the culture you grew up
in and the culture that you werevisiting and living in?
Dr. Jon McGee (03:42):
I think what attracted me was it was so
completely different.
I grew up in the Midwest, youknow, just Midwestern kid, I was
a professor's son, you know,always grew up wanting to be an
anthropologist, and um, butdidn't think too much about the
(04:05):
future.
And so when I discovered thesepeople, and um it this is l in
the rainforest at the time Istarted working, no electricity,
no roads, it was prettyprimitive.
And I I was in heaven.
That was just glorious for me.
It was like extended camping.
Judy Oskam (04:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And and when you first stumbledinto this life, because it
really is their life, and anddid did they let you in?
And were you were you welcomed?
Dr. Jon McGee (04:36):
Yes.
Uh they were very gracious.
Um and I I think I was thecommunity entertainment for a
long time because I was learningMaya while I was there, and so
the language mistakes I wouldmake, they thought were
hilarious.
Uh the Maya are big on punning,and my name, John, which is
(05:01):
Juan in Spanish, that's like theMaya word for partridge.
And so endless jokes about youknow my name and and then when I
I became conversant enough inMaya, then I started making
mistakes on purpose just toentertain.
So I was sort of the villagegoof, I think.
Judy Oskam (05:22):
Well, and and as you as you lived your life down
there, what what rituals orcelebrations did you did you see
and did you experience?
Because I I want to kind of getinto celebration and where does
it come from?
Why do we have a need and adesire to celebrate?
Dr. Jon McGee (05:42):
Well, I think human beings make we make up
rituals, personal rituals, justto help organize our days.
I mean, if you think about whenyou wake up, what are the first
things you do?
You know, you make a cup ofcoffee, you get in the shower,
whatever.
You know, we so we organize ourdays with little personal
(06:04):
rituals, but on a larger scale,I think ceremony helps us make
sense of the world and our placein it, and our place in the
larger society.
And in the case of the Maya,the more I learned about their
(06:25):
rituals, the more I discovered.
They were rainforest farmers.
And so a lot of the rituals,about half the rituals dealt
with agriculture, and the otherhalf dealt with health and
healing.
And I discovered, you know, themore I learned was that a lot
of the rituals were tailoredinto environmental changes in
(06:47):
the forest around us.
And the healing ritual, youknow, in the absence of
Western-style medical care, theyhad a very elaborate uh set of
healing rituals revolving aroundlike magical incantations that
were very deeply metaphorical,you know, referring, you might
(07:10):
be talking about a bird in yourincantation, but it refers to a
fever, you know.
And so this depth of symbolismthat they were using was
something that just reallysurprised me when I when I first
started, because I didn'trecognize that in our own
society.
And and you know, now I think II have a better understanding
(07:38):
about rituals that we'refamiliar with in our own
culture, you know, Christmas,Thanksgiving, you know,
whatever, um, that those have anequal depth of symbolism to
them.
It's just that we often don'trecognize where those symbols
come from.
Judy Oskam (07:58):
Well, and how oh, through the years you've been
teaching students about thosethings.
And what's been the reactionwhen you sort of explain the
history or the lore behind someof the traditions that you've
experienced and that you'veseen, but how do you tie it
together so that they understandit?
Dr. Jon McGee (08:16):
Right.
When I'm talking about theMaya, I've I've found in general
that students are areinterested and you know they
they want to know more aboutthat.
But if I talk about the theorigin of you know Western
ritual or Christian ritual,they're often very surprised
(08:37):
about where a lot of Christianritual practice comes from.
And so, you know, they'rethey're simply not familiar with
it.
And so you know, um equallyinterested, I think, but also if
if the roots of a ceremony thatthey are familiar with and have
(08:59):
practiced in their own churchesa lot are different from, say,
what they learned in Bibleschool or yeah, Bible study,
then I let me say I think auniversity education is supposed
to challenge people and broadenyour horizons.
So um some students like thatchallenge, others feel
(09:24):
threatened by it.
Sure.
Yeah, and so sure.
I I don't proselytize in class,I just you know say have an
open mind.
Judy Oskam (09:33):
Sure, sure.
Well, if you if you if youcould take us back to to one of
the first uh ceremonies thatyou've seen, can you describe
that scene for us when you'reout there and and in the
rainforest?
Uh can you describe what thatwas like?
Sure.
Dr. Jon McGee (09:49):
Um first off, I I could not I didn't understand
half of what was going onbecause men pray in a special
ritual.
It's a high-pitched, nasalizedvoice.
It's different from youreveryday speaking voice.
And so I knew the layout of theritual space and where I was
(10:14):
supposed to sit and what Iwasn't supposed to step over,
things like that.
But to try to follow, it wasdifficult to follow what was
going on and why people weredoing what they were doing when
they were doing it.
So at one point they're burningincense in these uh incense
(10:36):
burners that have faces modeledon them, which represent they're
sort of portals through whichthe deities receive their
offerings.
Um, they brew, one thing thatreally stood out is they brew a
ritual mead, mildly alcoholic,but they brew, they ferment this
(10:58):
called balce.
And over the course of manyrituals, they they've brewed
this dugout canoe full of balce,and the men drink balce.
You know, they have thesedrinking gourds, and the host of
the ritual hands you a drinkinggourd, and you're just supposed
to chug it.
(11:18):
Uh, you don't sit there and sipit, you know, you chug it.
And so everybody around me isgetting drunk during this
ritual.
And I I later learned it'ssupposed to ritually purify you,
and in that state, you can hearthe gods talking to you, and
you know, things happen.
(11:38):
But because just of my ownbackground, you know, Northern
European background, Europeanshave a higher tolerance for
alcohol than Native Americans.
And so I'd be drinkinggourdfuls of balce and sort of
feel like I had some Nyquil,whereas the people around me,
(11:59):
you know, are are gettingstronger impact.
Yeah, much, much that's a goodway to put it.
Yeah, much stronger impact.
And uh so that that reallycaught my attention because, you
know, with a Mennonite mother,and that was very different from
you know anything I had seenbefore.
Sure, sure.
Judy Oskam (12:17):
Well, if we're fun, yeah.
Well, if if we take that backand we look at our our rituals
and traditions today, and peoplealways encourage others to
enjoy life and experience life.
And how how do we how do weallow ourselves to celebrate?
And how does it become part ofwho we are?
Dr. Jon McGee (12:40):
Well, there it depends.
If we're talking aboutreligious rituals, most of the
religions in the world withwhich I am familiar and I don't
claim to know every single one,but many of them have some form
of altered state ofconsciousness.
(13:02):
And it doesn't necessarilyinvolve, you know, chewing
peyote or drinking something.
It's because you can achieve analtered state of consciousness
just through dancing, throughdrumming, and and so that you
can in many and even in churchesum in the United States, uh you
(13:24):
can have people who create thiseuphoric or I would say create
this euphoric state of mind.
Um just through the uh singingand the dancing and the the
activity during this uh churchceremony, um, which is typically
(13:48):
defined as possession by theHoly Spirit.
You know, and it feelswonderful, um and it's proof to
them of the existence of thethings they believe in, which is
great, you know.
I'm um nothing it nothing thatI say here should be you know
(14:09):
considered criticism.
Um so the Maya, you know, drinkbalce.
Some churches in the UnitedStates, you know, um like in
Appalachia, they're very common.
They're not very common, butthat's probably where the
largest concentration of themare.
You know, people are possessedby the Holy Spirit, and it's
(14:33):
it's proof to them, it's proofto the participants, or even
those observing, that you know,the Holy Spirit can come down
and possess you, and so yourbeliefs and practices are are
the right ones.
And I think you know, um that'sa powerful thing, and it's
(14:58):
different from secular ritualsbecause I think of graduation
ceremonies, you know, that umthose don't impact people in the
same way, right?
Um which is too bad.
I mean, if I wish like I'vebeen to many, many commencements
(15:19):
at Texas State, right?
And I wish students I thinkstudents often don't internalize
the significance of theirachievement.
You know, they people yeah, youdon't have to wear a tux, but I
(15:39):
see people in cut off shortsand flip-flops, you know, and um
and they show up late, they'reon their phones, and I'm saying,
you know, this is a publicrecognition of your achievement.
You should be proud ofyourself, you know.
You've you've done somethingthat most people in the United
States haven't done.
So maybe if we had someecstatic experience during our
(16:04):
commencements, people would uh,you know, maybe parents take it
more seriously, maybe, than thepeople who are uh who the
ceremony is focused on.
Judy Oskam (16:15):
But some are wearing the shorts so they can jump in
the river, which is a ritualthat they are that the
university is pushing really,and we have a river that runs
through our campus.
So it does turn into that typeof a celebration at least.
Dr. Jon McGee (16:31):
So I think for the people who do that, that may
be the most noteworthy part,you know, because in the sir in
the ceremony, in thecommencement ceremony, they're
just, you know, people are sureflying across the stage or
calling out names.
And but if you with yourfriends, you know, and family
(16:53):
watching on, you jump into theriver at the end, that may be
the most memorable thing to alot of people.
Judy Oskam (17:00):
Well, and does that become does that become a
celebration?
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, sure.
And what what are thecomponents of a celebration?
Uh it's must be a feeling.
Dr. Jon McGee (17:17):
I I'm trying to analyze it, but you're the
expert on rituals and uh well, II could you know I think
different people might come upwith different components of
what constitutes a celebration,but I think people need to feel
there's something to becelebrated.
(17:39):
And then they have a way whichis it might be regional, it
might be national, but acceptedas you know a way to express
your feelings about what you'vedone.
And so I mean, jumping in theSan Marcos River is a great one.
Actually, they do that atOxford when they graduate.
(18:00):
Oh, wow.
Only the river they're jumpingin is much shallower.
So this is this is way safer.
Wow.
Wow.
Um, yeah, so you know, you'reand because it's the end of this
ceremony and you're celebratingthis achievement, you get to do
(18:22):
something that you wouldn'tordinarily do, you know, and
nobody cares.
You can, you know, be fullyclothed, jump in the river, and
you know, and most peoplewouldn't do that in a normal
day.
Judy Oskam (18:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jon McGee (18:36):
So it's a marker of your of your achievement.
Judy Oskam (18:40):
Well, and is that what a celebration is?
Is it a marker of time?
And how do people, how shouldpeople think about that based on
their history and theirpersonal family history?
Should they, should they, doesit help?
Does it help?
I'm asking for myself here, butdoes it help, would it help me
(19:02):
to celebrate more and look backat my family history?
What what would that do for meas a as a human trying to get
through life, you know?
Dr. Jon McGee (19:15):
Well, I think the celebration is an important
component of marking anachievement, uh, some sort of
achievement in your life, um,whether it's personal or with a
group.
Uh, however, I'm not sure howmuch our society has today has
(19:41):
customs to mark a lot of ourachievements.
And so, you know, you graduatefrom college, your parents take
you out to dinner and saythey're proud of you, you know,
which is great.
Judy Oskam (19:53):
But define what a custom is.
Dr. Jon McGee (19:58):
Um What's the difference between that?
Something that is recognized asan appropriate way to express
yourself in certaincircumstances.
I know I'm talking about a s acultural custom, not just your
personal routine.
Judy Oskam (20:15):
Sure.
Dr. Jon McGee (20:16):
Um so in San Marcos after at Texas State
jumping in the river.
Um and you I've seen, I've beenhere, you know, so long.
I've seen I think jumping inthe river grew fairly
organically, right?
Nobody said, hey, everybody,let's jump in the river to
(20:39):
celebrate.
So um people, I believe it'simportant, they tend to create
their own.
Um, maybe because in oursociety we don't have a lot of
ways that we recognize to exdancing would be one, you know,
(20:59):
in celebration.
Um meals, ritual meals tocelebrate events.
Um but things like jumping inthe re river, I think, grow up
organically.
They just start happening andbecome a custom.
I have 50 years ago, 40 yearsago, when I first came to
(21:23):
campus, people weren't jumpingin the river.
That's something that startedmaybe over the last 20 years.
Judy Oskam (21:29):
Sure.
Dr. Jon McGee (21:30):
Um so also, I mean, we create these things,
these customs to celebrate, andsome of them can be really
destructive or negative, youknow.
Uh your team wins the SuperBowl or the World Series, and
people burn couches, you know,and so that typically will only
(21:56):
happen after, you know, yourcity's team achieves this, and
it's something that's grown uporganically, you know, people
don't normally pull couches outinto the street and set them on
fire, but that also has become away of celebrating, you know.
(22:18):
Um I put in a little plug formy son who was on the um Baylor
basketball teams, he was agraduate assistant on their
coaching staff the year they wonthe national championship.
And you don't think of Bayloras being a particularly wild
(22:42):
place, right?
Or Waco.
Judy Oskam (22:45):
Yeah.
Dr. Jon McGee (22:45):
But the night they had, you know, won that
championship, there werestudents out burning couches in
the streets in Waco.
You know, so this is a customthat's right, just grown up
organically and just hope peopledon't hurt themselves, you
(23:07):
know.
Judy Oskam (23:07):
Well, going back to kind of circling back to your
time with the Maya, and how didyou see those traditions change
as they became more Western, ifyou would?
What what did you notice?
Dr. Jon McGee (23:24):
Um, I started working, living there in 1980,
and by about 1985, there was areal change in how people were
supporting themselves.
Um they originally for hundredsof years they've been
(23:48):
rainforest farmers.
But they also have a fairlydistinctive appearance, and
because they're not Christian,there is a basically, and they
often live around ancient Mayaruins, so there is this mystique
around them, uh, which theyrealized and they started
(24:09):
selling stuff to tourists, um,like at these ruin sites.
And so if you're making andselling stuff to tourists, you
can't be home preparing yourfields.
And so there is a change in theeconomy, um, where people more
and more started relying on theincome they could earn from
(24:30):
tourism.
And what I saw was um, much tomy um mean surprise, really, was
that very quickly, um as theoldest generation of men died,
the men I was hanging out withmostly, and their you know, sons
(24:53):
and daughters took over, theyvery quickly dropped their
former religious beliefs.
They didn't convert toChristianity, they didn't
convert to anything, they justquit celebrating those rituals.
And I realized the rituals werefor the health of their fields,
you know, and good harvests orfor the health of their
(25:16):
families.
And if you're not farming, youdon't need all these rituals for
the, you know, for a goodharvest.
And if you have income to payfor medical care, which they
recognized was effective, youdon't need the other half of the
rituals.
And so basically, this changein their household economies
(25:39):
propelled this the abandoningthese religious traditions,
which I mean, the earliestwritten records about these
folks are from the 1790s, and inthe 1790s they were doing the
rituals that I saw when I firstshowed up.
(26:00):
So how long that had been goingon, there's no way to know.
But for several hundred yearsat least, in the space of a
couple of years, they justwalked away.
Judy Oskam (26:09):
Wow.
Dr. Jon McGee (26:10):
Yeah.
They'll do things for touristsnow.
If tourists come, they'll puton a ceremony or something, but
not for their own religiouspractices.
Judy Oskam (26:20):
Yeah.
Well, and you've sort of you'vetracked that whole thing, and
you've just had such a focus onthat particular um group of
people.
Dr. Jon McGee (26:32):
Yeah.
Judy Oskam (26:32):
Um, how does that make you feel after you see
that?
Dr. Jon McGee (26:35):
And oh part of me is sorry um that there have
been so many changes, but oneday when I was, you know,
feeling sorry for myself, then Irealized that, well, you know,
American society isn't the sameas it was in 1980, you know,
(26:57):
when I started working downhere.
We've changed just as much.
Right.
You know, um cultures changeall the time for all sorts of
reasons.
So why should they be anydifferent?
So I just started documentingthe changes and why I thought
those were happening.
It's fascinating to me.
(27:19):
Yeah, at the same time, though,there's such rich symbolism in
their stories and so many, youknow, these therapeutic
incantations and things, which Imean most lock and don't today
adults are not literate.
And so if people don't rememberthese things, they're gone in a
(27:45):
generation.
So I'd be sorry to see themlose this, you know, what I
consider a treasure ofinformation, you know, that was
a part of their culture beforeuh they started having a lot of
contact with the outside.
Judy Oskam (28:02):
There's no way to go back.
Dr. Jon McGee (28:04):
No.
Judy Oskam (28:05):
You can't turn the clock back, right?
Dr. Jon McGee (28:07):
No.
Judy Oskam (28:07):
Oh my god.
Dr. Jon McGee (28:08):
But we don't need many blacksmiths, you know,
anymore, though, now either.
So I mean, all cultures dothis.
Judy Oskam (28:15):
Yeah.
Well, if someone wanted to putmore celebration in their lives,
what what would you recommend?
Would you look back at history?
Would you look back at umevents or customs, or where
would someone start if theywanted to increase the
celebration in their lives?
Dr. Jon McGee (28:36):
I think ritual is is a good thing precisely for
that purpose.
Um to to you you would want togather the people who met most
to you and shared your ideas,you know, with you, because it's
(28:58):
a group thing.
Um and I think the ritual hasto reference something that is
meaningful in your community.
Um, and that that could be lotsof different things.
I I naturally gravitate towardsreligious rituals because
(29:20):
that's what I have spent manyyears thinking about.
Uh but the Passovercelebration, you know, they're
often ritual, religious ritualsare often recreations of
religious stories.
Um and so if you have acommunity of devout believers,
(29:42):
then those rituals are verymeaningful to that group of
people.
Maybe less so for me whostudies a wide variety of
religions.
Um but yeah, I mean, I thinkkey components here are that.
You have to be celebratingsomething that is meaningful to
(30:07):
the people you're celebratingwith, and the symbolism that you
are enacting in your ritual hasto refer to those shared
beliefs.
Because you're you're celebr ina religious ritual, you're
celebrating those sh I meancommunion is a you know
(30:28):
recreation of the Last Supper,right?
Judy Oskam (30:31):
Um and and the symbols are music and visual,
they're audio, visual, they'reeverything, right?
Dr. Jon McGee (30:41):
Physical, yeah.
Judy Oskam (30:42):
And uh sm uh sensory smell.
Absolutely, yeah.
Okay.
Dr. Jon McGee (30:46):
Yeah, sure.
I mean, if you grew up, forexample, in the um Catholic
Church, you know, the incense,you know, the or I think of
incense.
I grew up in a church that washeavy on incense um as being,
you know, I mean, that's a thathas a very long history uh in
(31:07):
Christian churches.
So incense, the colors of therobes of the officiants of the
ceremony, um the way your ritualspace is decorated, you know,
all of that is part of buildingthis it most of it has deep
(31:28):
historical symbolic roots, andit's a part of you you have to
give people what they expect,right?
You know, like a Christmas treeor or evergreen boughs on the
altar or whatever that is.
Um you know the the symbolshave to be I said you have to
(31:53):
give people what they expect.
The symbols have to bemeaningful to them.
If they don't if they'reesoteric.
You know, if if I designed a aChristmas service based around
computers, you know, peoplewould come in and go, what is
this?
You know, what does this haveto do with anything?
(32:14):
Right.
Um maybe another group, a groupof computer programmers would
think that was really cool.
Yeah.
So it can vary, you know.
We make up our own symbols.
So as a society, we're alwayscre we we are immersed in this
world of symbols that we'vecreated for ourselves.
(32:36):
And a ritual works when thesymbols are meaningful to you.
Judy Oskam (32:43):
And so the environment really does matter.
So creating the environmentreally does impact oh, I want to
say the audience, but thepeople that are there to receive
whatever the celebration is,yeah, or to participate, right?
Dr. Jon McGee (33:01):
Absolutely.
Just think about Thanksgiving,you know, and there are
nationwide some fairly standarditems of food that should be on
the table for Thanksgiving.
And then families also havetheir own, they've added their
own add-ons, you know, to like Ihad, I'm gonna switch
(33:26):
celebrations here, but I hadnever heard of like black-eyed
peas on New Year's Eve growingup in the Midwest for New Year's
Day until I got, you know, toTexas.
Um or enchiladas.
How did that start?
I have no idea, but there arepeople for whom that is
(33:47):
meaningful.
Right, right.
It's part of what you have tohave, you know, on um New Year's
Day.
Judy Oskam (33:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jon McGee (33:55):
For me, Turkey, you have to have turkey on
Thanksgiving, you know.
Otherwise, it's notThanksgiving.
It's not Thanksgiving.
That's right.
Judy Oskam (34:01):
That's right.
I want to thank you for yourcontribution to history and to
really kind of preservinghistory for us.
I've read some of your work andI've seen some of your other
videos, and I think it's afascinating area.
So thank you.
Dr. Jon McGee (34:18):
Well, thank you.
It's been a very great pleasureto have chat with you.
Judy Oskam (34:24):
Well, as I wrap up my conversation with Dr.
McGee, I'm holding on to theidea that celebration is
something we can create.
It's intentional.
And with the holidays on thehorizon, it feels like the
perfect time to rethink whatcelebration means in my own
life.
Maybe it's lighting a candlefor someone we miss or making a
(34:47):
special dish that's been passeddown through generations.
What are some of your rituals?
Think about how you celebrate.
This episode was recorded atthe Live Oak Podcast Studio on
the campus of Texas StateUniversity.
Thanks so much for listening.
Welcome to Stories of Change and Creativity.
I'm Judy Oskam, a professor inthe School of Journalism and
Mass Communication at TexasState University.
I'm really glad you're here.
And I want to share with youthat the older I get, the more
I've come to understand thatcelebration isn't only something
we do, it's something we need.
(00:24):
It's found not only in life'sbiggest achievements, which we
always tend to recognize, butalso in the small, everyday,
daily rituals that anchor ouridentity.
And that idea brings us totoday's conversation.
On this episode, I'm exploringthis deeper truth with Dr.
(00:45):
Jon McGee.
Dr.
McGee is an anthropologist andprofessor at Texas State
University.
And for more than 40 years, Dr.
McGee has studied Mayacommunities in southern Mexico.
Through his research on ritualand ceremony, he's discovered
that celebration is more than anevent.
(01:07):
It's a way people understandchange and make meaning.
Well, together we'll explorehow rituals evolve and why it's
important for us to find ways tocelebrate in our own daily
lives.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Dr. Jon McGee (01:26):
This is my 41st year at Texas State.
I came in, I think it was 1985.
And most of my career I'veworked with Maya in southern
Mexico.
And I lived in a community ofpeople who were not Christian.
And so I spent about the firstdecade of my work studying their
(01:51):
rituals and mythology and howthat fit into other aspects of
their society.
Judy Oskam (01:58):
Well, what led you down there in the first place?
Dr. Jon McGee (02:02):
Well, I have a diverse religious background.
My mother was Mennonite, myfather was Episcopalian via
Catholicism.
I was baptized by aPresbyterian minister, and you
know, so I had a lot of re Igrew up being interested in
religion and did a master'sthesis looking at the uh rich
(02:27):
faith healing rituals ofevangelical in evangelical
churches.
And then just when I wasworking on my PhD, I actually
discovered the folks uh that Iworked with by accident and just
fell into that opportunity, andI worked with them for over 30
(02:50):
years.
Judy Oskam (02:50):
Oh my gosh.
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Jon McGee (02:52):
Yeah, it's very rewarding.
Judy Oskam (02:54):
Well, and you've gotten to know them and go back,
and you know them by name.
Yeah.
And so you you've kind of livedwith them as family.
Dr. Jon McGee (03:03):
Right.
Yeah.
And I miss them a great dealnow because I can't.
I mean, once I grew up, right,and married, started a family,
my ability to spend a lot oftime down there was, you know,
curtailed a bit.
But I I communicate with peoplein this community now by
WhatsApp, which shows you thetechnology.
Judy Oskam (03:25):
Yeah.
Dr. Jon McGee (03:26):
Yeah.
unknown (03:26):
Yeah.
Judy Oskam (03:27):
Yeah.
Well, and when you firststarted going down there, what
was it that struck you uh uhabout the differences?
And this is a broad questionbetween the culture you grew up
in and the culture that you werevisiting and living in?
Dr. Jon McGee (03:42):
I think what attracted me was it was so
completely different.
I grew up in the Midwest, youknow, just Midwestern kid, I was
a professor's son, you know,always grew up wanting to be an
anthropologist, and um, butdidn't think too much about the
(04:05):
future.
And so when I discovered thesepeople, and um it this is l in
the rainforest at the time Istarted working, no electricity,
no roads, it was prettyprimitive.
And I I was in heaven.
That was just glorious for me.
It was like extended camping.
Judy Oskam (04:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And and when you first stumbledinto this life, because it
really is their life, and anddid did they let you in?
And were you were you welcomed?
Dr. Jon McGee (04:36):
Yes.
Uh they were very gracious.
Um and I I think I was thecommunity entertainment for a
long time because I was learningMaya while I was there, and so
the language mistakes I wouldmake, they thought were
hilarious.
Uh the Maya are big on punning,and my name, John, which is
(05:01):
Juan in Spanish, that's like theMaya word for partridge.
And so endless jokes about youknow my name and and then when I
I became conversant enough inMaya, then I started making
mistakes on purpose just toentertain.
So I was sort of the villagegoof, I think.
Judy Oskam (05:22):
Well, and and as you as you lived your life down
there, what what rituals orcelebrations did you did you see
and did you experience?
Because I I want to kind of getinto celebration and where does
it come from?
Why do we have a need and adesire to celebrate?
Dr. Jon McGee (05:42):
Well, I think human beings make we make up
rituals, personal rituals, justto help organize our days.
I mean, if you think about whenyou wake up, what are the first
things you do?
You know, you make a cup ofcoffee, you get in the shower,
whatever.
You know, we so we organize ourdays with little personal
(06:04):
rituals, but on a larger scale,I think ceremony helps us make
sense of the world and our placein it, and our place in the
larger society.
And in the case of the Maya,the more I learned about their
(06:25):
rituals, the more I discovered.
They were rainforest farmers.
And so a lot of the rituals,about half the rituals dealt
with agriculture, and the otherhalf dealt with health and
healing.
And I discovered, you know, themore I learned was that a lot
of the rituals were tailoredinto environmental changes in
(06:47):
the forest around us.
And the healing ritual, youknow, in the absence of
Western-style medical care, theyhad a very elaborate uh set of
healing rituals revolving aroundlike magical incantations that
were very deeply metaphorical,you know, referring, you might
(07:10):
be talking about a bird in yourincantation, but it refers to a
fever, you know.
And so this depth of symbolismthat they were using was
something that just reallysurprised me when I when I first
started, because I didn'trecognize that in our own
society.
And and you know, now I think II have a better understanding
(07:38):
about rituals that we'refamiliar with in our own
culture, you know, Christmas,Thanksgiving, you know,
whatever, um, that those have anequal depth of symbolism to
them.
It's just that we often don'trecognize where those symbols
come from.
Judy Oskam (07:58):
Well, and how oh, through the years you've been
teaching students about thosethings.
And what's been the reactionwhen you sort of explain the
history or the lore behind someof the traditions that you've
experienced and that you'veseen, but how do you tie it
together so that they understandit?
Dr. Jon McGee (08:16):
Right.
When I'm talking about theMaya, I've I've found in general
that students are areinterested and you know they
they want to know more aboutthat.
But if I talk about the theorigin of you know Western
ritual or Christian ritual,they're often very surprised
(08:37):
about where a lot of Christianritual practice comes from.
And so, you know, they'rethey're simply not familiar with
it.
And so you know, um equallyinterested, I think, but also if
if the roots of a ceremony thatthey are familiar with and have
(08:59):
practiced in their own churchesa lot are different from, say,
what they learned in Bibleschool or yeah, Bible study,
then I let me say I think auniversity education is supposed
to challenge people and broadenyour horizons.
So um some students like thatchallenge, others feel
(09:24):
threatened by it.
Sure.
Yeah, and so sure.
I I don't proselytize in class,I just you know say have an
open mind.
Judy Oskam (09:33):
Sure, sure.
Well, if you if you if youcould take us back to to one of
the first uh ceremonies thatyou've seen, can you describe
that scene for us when you'reout there and and in the
rainforest?
Uh can you describe what thatwas like?
Sure.
Dr. Jon McGee (09:49):
Um first off, I I could not I didn't understand
half of what was going onbecause men pray in a special
ritual.
It's a high-pitched, nasalizedvoice.
It's different from youreveryday speaking voice.
And so I knew the layout of theritual space and where I was
(10:14):
supposed to sit and what Iwasn't supposed to step over,
things like that.
But to try to follow, it wasdifficult to follow what was
going on and why people weredoing what they were doing when
they were doing it.
So at one point they're burningincense in these uh incense
(10:36):
burners that have faces modeledon them, which represent they're
sort of portals through whichthe deities receive their
offerings.
Um, they brew, one thing thatreally stood out is they brew a
ritual mead, mildly alcoholic,but they brew, they ferment this
(10:58):
called balce.
And over the course of manyrituals, they they've brewed
this dugout canoe full of balce,and the men drink balce.
You know, they have thesedrinking gourds, and the host of
the ritual hands you a drinkinggourd, and you're just supposed
to chug it.
(11:18):
Uh, you don't sit there and sipit, you know, you chug it.
And so everybody around me isgetting drunk during this
ritual.
And I I later learned it'ssupposed to ritually purify you,
and in that state, you can hearthe gods talking to you, and
you know, things happen.
(11:38):
But because just of my ownbackground, you know, Northern
European background, Europeanshave a higher tolerance for
alcohol than Native Americans.
And so I'd be drinkinggourdfuls of balce and sort of
feel like I had some Nyquil,whereas the people around me,
(11:59):
you know, are are gettingstronger impact.
Yeah, much, much that's a goodway to put it.
Yeah, much stronger impact.
And uh so that that reallycaught my attention because, you
know, with a Mennonite mother,and that was very different from
you know anything I had seenbefore.
Sure, sure.
Judy Oskam (12:17):
Well, if we're fun, yeah.
Well, if if we take that backand we look at our our rituals
and traditions today, and peoplealways encourage others to
enjoy life and experience life.
And how how do we how do weallow ourselves to celebrate?
And how does it become part ofwho we are?
Dr. Jon McGee (12:40):
Well, there it depends.
If we're talking aboutreligious rituals, most of the
religions in the world withwhich I am familiar and I don't
claim to know every single one,but many of them have some form
of altered state ofconsciousness.
(13:02):
And it doesn't necessarilyinvolve, you know, chewing
peyote or drinking something.
It's because you can achieve analtered state of consciousness
just through dancing, throughdrumming, and and so that you
can in many and even in churchesum in the United States, uh you
(13:24):
can have people who create thiseuphoric or I would say create
this euphoric state of mind.
Um just through the uh singingand the dancing and the the
activity during this uh churchceremony, um, which is typically
(13:48):
defined as possession by theHoly Spirit.
You know, and it feelswonderful, um and it's proof to
them of the existence of thethings they believe in, which is
great, you know.
I'm um nothing it nothing thatI say here should be you know
(14:09):
considered criticism.
Um so the Maya, you know, drinkbalce.
Some churches in the UnitedStates, you know, um like in
Appalachia, they're very common.
They're not very common, butthat's probably where the
largest concentration of themare.
You know, people are possessedby the Holy Spirit, and it's
(14:33):
it's proof to them, it's proofto the participants, or even
those observing, that you know,the Holy Spirit can come down
and possess you, and so yourbeliefs and practices are are
the right ones.
And I think you know, um that'sa powerful thing, and it's
(14:58):
different from secular ritualsbecause I think of graduation
ceremonies, you know, that umthose don't impact people in the
same way, right?
Um which is too bad.
I mean, if I wish like I'vebeen to many, many commencements
(15:19):
at Texas State, right?
And I wish students I thinkstudents often don't internalize
the significance of theirachievement.
You know, they people yeah, youdon't have to wear a tux, but I
(15:39):
see people in cut off shortsand flip-flops, you know, and um
and they show up late, they'reon their phones, and I'm saying,
you know, this is a publicrecognition of your achievement.
You should be proud ofyourself, you know.
You've you've done somethingthat most people in the United
States haven't done.
So maybe if we had someecstatic experience during our
(16:04):
commencements, people would uh,you know, maybe parents take it
more seriously, maybe, than thepeople who are uh who the
ceremony is focused on.
Judy Oskam (16:15):
But some are wearing the shorts so they can jump in
the river, which is a ritualthat they are that the
university is pushing really,and we have a river that runs
through our campus.
So it does turn into that typeof a celebration at least.
Dr. Jon McGee (16:31):
So I think for the people who do that, that may
be the most noteworthy part,you know, because in the sir in
the ceremony, in thecommencement ceremony, they're
just, you know, people are sureflying across the stage or
calling out names.
And but if you with yourfriends, you know, and family
(16:53):
watching on, you jump into theriver at the end, that may be
the most memorable thing to alot of people.
Judy Oskam (17:00):
Well, and does that become does that become a
celebration?
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, sure.
And what what are thecomponents of a celebration?
Uh it's must be a feeling.
Dr. Jon McGee (17:17):
I I'm trying to analyze it, but you're the
expert on rituals and uh well, II could you know I think
different people might come upwith different components of
what constitutes a celebration,but I think people need to feel
there's something to becelebrated.
(17:39):
And then they have a way whichis it might be regional, it
might be national, but acceptedas you know a way to express
your feelings about what you'vedone.
And so I mean, jumping in theSan Marcos River is a great one.
Actually, they do that atOxford when they graduate.
(18:00):
Oh, wow.
Only the river they're jumpingin is much shallower.
So this is this is way safer.
Wow.
Wow.
Um, yeah, so you know, you'reand because it's the end of this
ceremony and you're celebratingthis achievement, you get to do
(18:22):
something that you wouldn'tordinarily do, you know, and
nobody cares.
You can, you know, be fullyclothed, jump in the river, and
you know, and most peoplewouldn't do that in a normal
day.
Judy Oskam (18:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jon McGee (18:36):
So it's a marker of your of your achievement.
Judy Oskam (18:40):
Well, and is that what a celebration is?
Is it a marker of time?
And how do people, how shouldpeople think about that based on
their history and theirpersonal family history?
Should they, should they, doesit help?
Does it help?
I'm asking for myself here, butdoes it help, would it help me
(19:02):
to celebrate more and look backat my family history?
What what would that do for meas a as a human trying to get
through life, you know?
Dr. Jon McGee (19:15):
Well, I think the celebration is an important
component of marking anachievement, uh, some sort of
achievement in your life, um,whether it's personal or with a
group.
Uh, however, I'm not sure howmuch our society has today has
(19:41):
customs to mark a lot of ourachievements.
And so, you know, you graduatefrom college, your parents take
you out to dinner and saythey're proud of you, you know,
which is great.
Judy Oskam (19:53):
But define what a custom is.
Dr. Jon McGee (19:58):
Um What's the difference between that?
Something that is recognized asan appropriate way to express
yourself in certaincircumstances.
I know I'm talking about a s acultural custom, not just your
personal routine.
Judy Oskam (20:15):
Sure.
Dr. Jon McGee (20:16):
Um so in San Marcos after at Texas State
jumping in the river.
Um and you I've seen, I've beenhere, you know, so long.
I've seen I think jumping inthe river grew fairly
organically, right?
Nobody said, hey, everybody,let's jump in the river to
(20:39):
celebrate.
So um people, I believe it'simportant, they tend to create
their own.
Um, maybe because in oursociety we don't have a lot of
ways that we recognize to exdancing would be one, you know,
(20:59):
in celebration.
Um meals, ritual meals tocelebrate events.
Um but things like jumping inthe re river, I think, grow up
organically.
They just start happening andbecome a custom.
I have 50 years ago, 40 yearsago, when I first came to
(21:23):
campus, people weren't jumpingin the river.
That's something that startedmaybe over the last 20 years.
Judy Oskam (21:29):
Sure.
Dr. Jon McGee (21:30):
Um so also, I mean, we create these things,
these customs to celebrate, andsome of them can be really
destructive or negative, youknow.
Uh your team wins the SuperBowl or the World Series, and
people burn couches, you know,and so that typically will only
(21:56):
happen after, you know, yourcity's team achieves this, and
it's something that's grown uporganically, you know, people
don't normally pull couches outinto the street and set them on
fire, but that also has become away of celebrating, you know.
(22:18):
Um I put in a little plug formy son who was on the um Baylor
basketball teams, he was agraduate assistant on their
coaching staff the year they wonthe national championship.
And you don't think of Bayloras being a particularly wild
(22:42):
place, right?
Or Waco.
Judy Oskam (22:45):
Yeah.
Dr. Jon McGee (22:45):
But the night they had, you know, won that
championship, there werestudents out burning couches in
the streets in Waco.
You know, so this is a customthat's right, just grown up
organically and just hope peopledon't hurt themselves, you
(23:07):
know.
Judy Oskam (23:07):
Well, going back to kind of circling back to your
time with the Maya, and how didyou see those traditions change
as they became more Western, ifyou would?
What what did you notice?
Dr. Jon McGee (23:24):
Um, I started working, living there in 1980,
and by about 1985, there was areal change in how people were
supporting themselves.
Um they originally for hundredsof years they've been
(23:48):
rainforest farmers.
But they also have a fairlydistinctive appearance, and
because they're not Christian,there is a basically, and they
often live around ancient Mayaruins, so there is this mystique
around them, uh, which theyrealized and they started
(24:09):
selling stuff to tourists, um,like at these ruin sites.
And so if you're making andselling stuff to tourists, you
can't be home preparing yourfields.
And so there is a change in theeconomy, um, where people more
and more started relying on theincome they could earn from
(24:30):
tourism.
And what I saw was um, much tomy um mean surprise, really, was
that very quickly, um as theoldest generation of men died,
the men I was hanging out withmostly, and their you know, sons
(24:53):
and daughters took over, theyvery quickly dropped their
former religious beliefs.
They didn't convert toChristianity, they didn't
convert to anything, they justquit celebrating those rituals.
And I realized the rituals werefor the health of their fields,
you know, and good harvests orfor the health of their
(25:16):
families.
And if you're not farming, youdon't need all these rituals for
the, you know, for a goodharvest.
And if you have income to payfor medical care, which they
recognized was effective, youdon't need the other half of the
rituals.
And so basically, this changein their household economies
(25:39):
propelled this the abandoningthese religious traditions,
which I mean, the earliestwritten records about these
folks are from the 1790s, and inthe 1790s they were doing the
rituals that I saw when I firstshowed up.
(26:00):
So how long that had been goingon, there's no way to know.
But for several hundred yearsat least, in the space of a
couple of years, they justwalked away.
Judy Oskam (26:09):
Wow.
Dr. Jon McGee (26:10):
Yeah.
They'll do things for touristsnow.
If tourists come, they'll puton a ceremony or something, but
not for their own religiouspractices.
Judy Oskam (26:20):
Yeah.
Well, and you've sort of you'vetracked that whole thing, and
you've just had such a focus onthat particular um group of
people.
Dr. Jon McGee (26:32):
Yeah.
Judy Oskam (26:32):
Um, how does that make you feel after you see
that?
Dr. Jon McGee (26:35):
And oh part of me is sorry um that there have
been so many changes, but oneday when I was, you know,
feeling sorry for myself, then Irealized that, well, you know,
American society isn't the sameas it was in 1980, you know,
(26:57):
when I started working downhere.
We've changed just as much.
Right.
You know, um cultures changeall the time for all sorts of
reasons.
So why should they be anydifferent?
So I just started documentingthe changes and why I thought
those were happening.
It's fascinating to me.
(27:19):
Yeah, at the same time, though,there's such rich symbolism in
their stories and so many, youknow, these therapeutic
incantations and things, which Imean most lock and don't today
adults are not literate.
And so if people don't rememberthese things, they're gone in a
(27:45):
generation.
So I'd be sorry to see themlose this, you know, what I
consider a treasure ofinformation, you know, that was
a part of their culture beforeuh they started having a lot of
contact with the outside.
Judy Oskam (28:02):
There's no way to go back.
Dr. Jon McGee (28:04):
No.
Judy Oskam (28:05):
You can't turn the clock back, right?
Dr. Jon McGee (28:07):
No.
Judy Oskam (28:07):
Oh my god.
Dr. Jon McGee (28:08):
But we don't need many blacksmiths, you know,
anymore, though, now either.
So I mean, all cultures dothis.
Judy Oskam (28:15):
Yeah.
Well, if someone wanted to putmore celebration in their lives,
what what would you recommend?
Would you look back at history?
Would you look back at umevents or customs, or where
would someone start if theywanted to increase the
celebration in their lives?
Dr. Jon McGee (28:36):
I think ritual is is a good thing precisely for
that purpose.
Um to to you you would want togather the people who met most
to you and shared your ideas,you know, with you, because it's
(28:58):
a group thing.
Um and I think the ritual hasto reference something that is
meaningful in your community.
Um, and that that could be lotsof different things.
I I naturally gravitate towardsreligious rituals because
(29:20):
that's what I have spent manyyears thinking about.
Uh but the Passovercelebration, you know, they're
often ritual, religious ritualsare often recreations of
religious stories.
Um and so if you have acommunity of devout believers,
(29:42):
then those rituals are verymeaningful to that group of
people.
Maybe less so for me whostudies a wide variety of
religions.
Um but yeah, I mean, I thinkkey components here are that.
You have to be celebratingsomething that is meaningful to
(30:07):
the people you're celebratingwith, and the symbolism that you
are enacting in your ritual hasto refer to those shared
beliefs.
Because you're you're celebr ina religious ritual, you're
celebrating those sh I meancommunion is a you know
(30:28):
recreation of the Last Supper,right?
Judy Oskam (30:31):
Um and and the symbols are music and visual,
they're audio, visual, they'reeverything, right?
Dr. Jon McGee (30:41):
Physical, yeah.
Judy Oskam (30:42):
And uh sm uh sensory smell.
Absolutely, yeah.
Okay.
Dr. Jon McGee (30:46):
Yeah, sure.
I mean, if you grew up, forexample, in the um Catholic
Church, you know, the incense,you know, the or I think of
incense.
I grew up in a church that washeavy on incense um as being,
you know, I mean, that's a thathas a very long history uh in
(31:07):
Christian churches.
So incense, the colors of therobes of the officiants of the
ceremony, um the way your ritualspace is decorated, you know,
all of that is part of buildingthis it most of it has deep
(31:28):
historical symbolic roots, andit's a part of you you have to
give people what they expect,right?
You know, like a Christmas treeor or evergreen boughs on the
altar or whatever that is.
Um you know the the symbolshave to be I said you have to
(31:53):
give people what they expect.
The symbols have to bemeaningful to them.
If they don't if they'reesoteric.
You know, if if I designed a aChristmas service based around
computers, you know, peoplewould come in and go, what is
this?
You know, what does this haveto do with anything?
(32:14):
Right.
Um maybe another group, a groupof computer programmers would
think that was really cool.
Yeah.
So it can vary, you know.
We make up our own symbols.
So as a society, we're alwayscre we we are immersed in this
world of symbols that we'vecreated for ourselves.
(32:36):
And a ritual works when thesymbols are meaningful to you.
Judy Oskam (32:43):
And so the environment really does matter.
So creating the environmentreally does impact oh, I want to
say the audience, but thepeople that are there to receive
whatever the celebration is,yeah, or to participate, right?
Dr. Jon McGee (33:01):
Absolutely.
Just think about Thanksgiving,you know, and there are
nationwide some fairly standarditems of food that should be on
the table for Thanksgiving.
And then families also havetheir own, they've added their
own add-ons, you know, to like Ihad, I'm gonna switch
(33:26):
celebrations here, but I hadnever heard of like black-eyed
peas on New Year's Eve growingup in the Midwest for New Year's
Day until I got, you know, toTexas.
Um or enchiladas.
How did that start?
I have no idea, but there arepeople for whom that is
(33:47):
meaningful.
Right, right.
It's part of what you have tohave, you know, on um New Year's
Day.
Judy Oskam (33:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jon McGee (33:55):
For me, Turkey, you have to have turkey on
Thanksgiving, you know.
Otherwise, it's notThanksgiving.
It's not Thanksgiving.
That's right.
Judy Oskam (34:01):
That's right.
I want to thank you for yourcontribution to history and to
really kind of preservinghistory for us.
I've read some of your work andI've seen some of your other
videos, and I think it's afascinating area.
So thank you.
Dr. Jon McGee (34:18):
Well, thank you.
It's been a very great pleasureto have chat with you.
Judy Oskam (34:24):
Well, as I wrap up my conversation with Dr.
McGee, I'm holding on to theidea that celebration is
something we can create.
It's intentional.
And with the holidays on thehorizon, it feels like the
perfect time to rethink whatcelebration means in my own
life.
Maybe it's lighting a candlefor someone we miss or making a
(34:47):
special dish that's been passeddown through generations.
What are some of your rituals?
Think about how you celebrate.
This episode was recorded atthe Live Oak Podcast Studio on
the campus of Texas StateUniversity.
Thanks so much for listening.
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