Robbie (Post Concussion Syndrome): Full Episode - Recovery from post concussion syndrome (PCS) - Stories of Recovery

Episode Transcript
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Robbie Frawley (00:25):
Welcome to Stories of Recovery. My name is
Robbie Frawley and on thispodcast I interview people who
have experienced and recoveredfrom brain related conditions
such as stroke, concussion,chronic pain and traumatic brain
injury. We'll discuss theirstory and highlight the things
which have been most beneficialand most important in their

(00:46):
recovery. This might be specifictreatments or medical
professionals that were mostcrucial. It could be books,
knowledge or advice which theywere given or which they found
along the way, or evenparticular habits, attitudes, or
practices that helped them themost. If you or someone you care
about is struggling to recoverfrom one of these or another
brain related condition, thepodcast was really made with you

(01:10):
in mind, I want you to know thatothers have been where you are
now and that they have gottenbetter. You can recover and
hopefully in the interviews thatfollow, you will hear a thing or
two which resonate and whichhelp you to do just that. So who
am I? Well, I'm a young man whogrew up in country Victoria,

(01:30):
Australia and I've had a numberof concussions growing up
playing sport. After the lastone, which was over seven years
ago now, I developed somethingcalled post concussion syndrome.
I'd never even heard of this.
But it left me with ongoingfatigue, headaches, nausea,
vertigo, cognitive fog,overwhelm, and sensitivity to
impact. It had a really dramaticeffect on my life and it took

(01:53):
many years, much effort andgreat assistance from others to
fully recover from it. Now thatI am back to 100%, and again,
have some surplus energy, I'dlike to help you in any way I
can to get you back to goodhealth. My hope is that we can
provide some light at the end ofthe tunnel for you and also give

(02:13):
you some useful tips and tricksthat might help you along the
way.
Now, one thing to remember isthat the brain is a really
marvellous thing. And you canand you will get better. I've
left in as much of the contextdetail and information in these

(02:36):
interviews as possible, whichmeans they can be quite long,
but they're split into keychapters to make it easier to
listen. And to help you to focuson what you need to hear right
now. And remember that you canpause and come back to the story
in as many small bites as youneed. Now, without further ado,
let's jump into it.

(02:58):
This episode is a bit different,in that it is my story. And so
someone else is interviewing me.
I'll introduce her now.
Associate Professor TashaStanton is the Osteoarthritis
research theme lead for IIMPACTin Health at the University of
South Australia and a NationalHealth and Medical Research
Council of Australia fellow.
She's a clinical painneuroscientist with original

(03:20):
training as a physio therapist.
Her research focuses on pain,and she has a specific interest
in pain education,osteoarthritis, low back pain,
cortical body representation,Somatosensation and body
illusions using virtual andmediated reality. In short,

(03:40):
though, she is one of theleading pain researchers
globally and it was ultimatelythrough meeting Tasha and
learning some lessons from herfield of pain science that
helped me to find the finalsteps back to 100%.
Now I want to acknowledgeupfront that whilst it took me
over seven years to fullyrecover, and that that is
probably not an enticingproposition for you, if I did

(04:04):
know at the start, everythingthat I know now, I believe it
would have taken me only afraction of this time. And
that's why I want to share theselearnings with you. I hope that
at the least they give you hope,and at the most help you
recover. This conversation tookplace on the lens of the Kaurna
people of the Adelaide plains,and I would like to acknowledge

(04:26):
them as traditional owners ofthis land and pay respect to
their elders past and present. Iwould also like to pay my
respect to other Aboriginallanguage groups and other First
Nations. I wish you courage andenergy on your own journey
forward. And I hope you enjoyedthis long, sometimes tangential,
interweaving conversation.
Cheers

Tasha Stanton (05:05):
Ready to go?

I'm ready.

You're ready. All right, welcome there to all the
listeners. You might not knowwho I am. I don't know who you
are yet but my name is TashaStanton and I work as an
associate professor at theUniversity of South Australia.
And I'm really excited todaybecause I get to have the very
wonderful opportunity tointerview someone you do know,

(05:27):
Robbie Frawley. And he, as youwill have known has done other
different interviews of variousdifferent people but he also
comes to this with a reallyunique and powerful story
himself. So welcome Robbie,thanks for letting me take over.

Thank you, Tasha. It's fantastic to be here
and fantastic to see you and tobe speaking with you.

Wonderful. So, Robbie, I think one of the
things that you know, is really,really interesting and really
powerful about all of thesedifferent things is hearing what
people have gone through. But Iguess before I want to go into
that, can you tell me a littlebit about, you know, who was
Robbie? What was life likebefore, you know, you kind of
underwent the experiences thatyou went through?

Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in
southwestern Victoria on a sheepand cattle farm and so I lived a
pretty active outdoor life.
Always working after school onthe farm and playing a lot of
sport as you do in countryareas.

What type of sports did you play?

What did I play?
You name it, anything to do withthe water I love, so surfing,
water skiing, swimming. But thenfootball, cricket basketball, no
I didn't like cricket, I toyedwith cricket and didn't keep
going. Football, hockey,basketball, a little bit of
boxing, snow skiing, running.

(06:55):
You name it. Yeah. It's a bigpart of country life. And so
then I had gone off touniversity and I'd studied civil
engineering and I was workingback in Warrnambool in a
regional centre as a civilengineer. Yeah, just making the

(07:17):
most of every moment. So I wasloving surfing, I'd wake up
before work and run down to thebeach and go surfing and on a
particularly good day, I couldget in a surf before work, surf
at lunchtime and then surf againafter work. I'd be riding, I
think I had just been trainingwith the Warrnambool football
club and a very vibrant sociallife and heading to Melbourne to

(07:43):
catch up with mates down there.
And heading up to the farm tohelp Mum and Dad or to see my
family and catch up withfriends. Yeah, it was very
filled. But it was it was a goodtime.

It's a beautiful area as well. Very good choice.
Tell me a little bit more thanwhat what happened with your
injury?

Sure. So it wasn't actually anything too
spectacular. I'd had quite anumber of concussions, maybe
five or six growing up. Theywere all very mild. I hadn't
actually lost consciousness withany of them. They had been
from... strangely I didn'tactually have any in football.
They had been waterskiing orwakeboarding, snow skiing,

(08:28):
surfing, boxing. And this one, Iwas wakeboarding. So it's behind
a boat. So behind a speedboatkind of like waterskiing, but
it's like the snowboarding orskateboarding equivalent.

You do all those crazy flippity flips?

Yeah, that's right. And so your feet are
strapped in very, very tight.
The tighter you can get them thebetter because you want to have
a really responsive board. Andso that turns out that's not
ideal for, you know, otherthings. But yeah I really loved
wakeboarding and on thisparticular day, I wasn't trying

(09:06):
to do anything special. I wasthere with some friends and just
cruising along, and I think Idid something really basic like
a bunny hop, and sort ofswitched my stance, so instead
of left foot forward was rightfoot forward, and I was trying
to do it over something and gota bit distracted. Instead of
going all the way around, I onlywent halfway around and then

(09:29):
landed, and so caught that frontedge. And the effect of that
was, was to kind of whiplash meinto the water. And I mean,
that's pretty common withwakeboarding as I said,
particularly if you have reallytight bindings.

I've definitely done that snowboarding, so
completely understand aboutcatching an edge.

Yeah. But for whatever reason, on this
particular day, that didn'trespond well. So I sort of came
up and I was a bit thrown and abit like.... Something about it
sort of made me a little bitnervous so that I climbed back
into the boat, instead ofputting the board back on and
keeping going like I normallywould. I climbed into the boat
and said, I'm done. And then wewent home. And I was a little

(10:14):
bit out of it, I was aware thatI was a little bit out of it.
And so I didn't actually drinkeven though I had friends over
that night, I made sure I didn'tdrink alcohol, just because I
had some awareness of backgroundwith concussions and so I sort
of just wanted to do the rightthing. And anyway, I went to
bed. Next day, I was feelingpretty good, so I got up and my

(10:36):
friends headed off and I wentsurfing. I was surfing tiny
surf, surfing a mini mal and Idid a late drop, dropped into
the wave late. And I don't knowhow I did this, but I
effectively caught an edgeagain. And so again, kind of
whiplashed into the water. Ithink I came out of that and was

(10:57):
sort of very slow. Yeah. Andthen basically sat up and had a
very quiet day and had a veryquiet couple of days. I think it
was a long weekend. So I didn'tdo too much, just feeling a
little bit ill and groggy. And Ijust thought I just need to
chill.
I went back to work on theMonday or the Tuesday after the

(11:17):
long weekend, and then pushedthrough to the end of the week
and then was just knackered. SoI made it to the end of the
week, I had headaches and wasnot feeling very good. But
that's quite common withconcussion, you obviously feel
pretty rough, you know, in thedays and the weeks after, and
then you normally just sort ofstart to improve. So I was aware

(11:38):
of that and I wasn't concernedabout it. But I was just kind of
pushing through, and then I'dget to the weekend I just slept,
which wasn't standard behaviourfor me. And then I'd get to
Monday again, and it was like'Alright, I'm ready to go', and
then push through the week kindof grinding, and then get to the

(11:59):
weekend, and I was just cooked.
I think I actually went back tomy parents place and basically
went to sleep, and was in bedand pretty much did nothing.

That must have been quite concerning for them I
imagine or were like, oh, maybehe's just tired?

I'm not sure I don't have a great memory of it.
They probably were a bitconcerned. But I'm not super
sure. Anyway, on the Monday Ithink they said 'you know, I
think you may be better to justkeep resting'. I was of course
terribly stressed about (all ofthe work I needed to do) and
said but hang on, I've got thesethings to do at work... like

(12:37):
they have to happen. I can't notgo back. And I remember talking
to my boss and said 'don't worryabout it, just take it easy'.
Anyway, I took off the week andjust rested. And again the next
weekend I thought 'I'm good togo'. And anyway, after a few
cycles of that, very boom-bust,I went in and saw my GP and

(12:59):
he... I was fortunate, he hadsome experience previously with
the trauma Rehab Centre inGeelong called Grace Mckellar. I
think it was Grace McKellarcommunity outreach or community
rehab centre. And so he sort ofsaid 'oh look, this is... I feel
like I've seen something likethis before, it might be
worthwhile you going and seeingthese guys'. So he gave me a

(13:20):
referral. And they werefantastic. I guess that's what
you would call or I would callkind of best current practice in
terms of concussion rehab, whereyou've got, or I had a team of
people (treating me).
So the main person, kind of thedirector if you like, running

(13:49):
the show was a traumarehabilitation physician and
then there was an occupationaltherapist and a physio therapist
and an exercise physiologist anda neuro psychologist. And
effectively what they're doingis they would typically see
people who have experienced carcrashes and things like that.

(14:11):
And then they would be seeingthem as a team and all putting
in their little bit of specialtyexpertise to kind of help this
person recover. And they woulddo that in both an inpatient
setting for people in hospital,but also they had an outpatient
service with people like me thatcould come in from outside and
have your appointments and thengo away. And so I came in and

(14:32):
they basically sort of ran methrough a bunch of tests and
that involved I think aquestionnaire and cognitive
tests where they would sort ofread out A-7-B-12... you know, a
series of numbers or letters andthen ask you to repeat them back

(14:53):
or that type of thing or get youto do some puzzle, and time you
and...

No stress though...

and then kind of look at you while you're trying
to work out if that was a goodtime or not a good time. And
then physical tests like abalance board thing that you had
to stand in and close your eyes,and it would move and shudder
and assess where your balancewas, and whether your reactions

(15:21):
effectively were within thenormal range. So lots of
different tests like that andthen they sit down and speak
with you and talk to you aboutwhat the results were and, and
what they thought and what thatmeant going forwards. And so
they said to me 'look, this isclassic post concussion

(15:43):
syndrome', which is notsomething I'd ever heard of. And
they said 20% of concussionsdon't resolve within the
standard period, the symptomspersist and we can tell you that
you will return to normal, wejust can't tell you when. And
so, then they would highlightOkay, well, in these areas,

So what sort of strategies or things did they
you're quite strong, or in theseareas, there's quite a deficit
there. And effectively, theneach of the specialties would
work (with you, and) give yousome strategies as to how to
cope in life if you like,because you're pretty limited.

(16:26):
think at that point, were reallyquite important for you to focus
on?

Everything was about pacing. So everything was
about a management strategy. Soit was, for me at that time, I
was really, really fatigued. Youknow, I would sort of said, I
would go to work I'd pushthrough, and then I would
literally just come home andcollapse. And then I would get
up and do it again. And so theywould sort of describe that as

(16:51):
you're doing that and you'rehaving a collapse, you're going
too hard. And so you need tostop before you get to the point
of not being able to do anythingand recharge your batteries
earlier, if you like and theydescribed that in a when your
brain is recovering from aconcussion, effectively, its

(17:12):
energy requirement is muchgreater than normal setting. So
everything you're doing, ifnormally, for the fern analogy,
if it required one muesli bar todo X task, you know, in a
concussed state or recoveringfrom a concussed state, it might
take two or three muesli barsthat's sort of chewing through

(17:33):
that energy, and it's fatiguingquick, more quicker than usual.

It's kind of interesting, because sometimes,
like fatigue is not alwaysattributed to being you know, a
symptom of something likeoftentimes, we think I've just
done too much versus, likereally having I guess that
understanding that when you'veundergone something like this,
actually, there are differentrequirements, it means that this
is completely makes sense whyyou're so tired all the time, or

(17:59):
like, was that grasping that fithelpful? Or did you kind of
already work out that yourself?
By I guess your experience is akind of boom and bust.

It was helpful, it was helpful to have I think
it's helpful when someone cansay, Yes, I know what's wrong
with you. And that's normal. Andwe can assist with that. It, it
sort of did make sense, it didhelp. Because I suppose I still

(18:29):
have this mental image in myhead, which was, I think talking
about it is obviously taking meback. But I had this mental
image. And I would describe topeople in that, you know, saying
kids video game, you'll oftenhave the, if you're a character,
you have an energy bar, and sothe top right hand corner, and

(18:49):
that will slowly sort of godown, you know, either during
the game or if the character isattacked by something. And I
will just find that energy, butI could, in some situations, I
could nearly see that energypower just dropping like if I
walked into a supermarket. Wow.
Like it taught me how muchstimulation is in a supermarket

(19:13):
because I could walk in kind offully charged. And I would just,
I could just see the energy, butit's draining. And I'd think I
need to get out of here in thenext two minutes, or I'm gonna
be on the ground. And I guess Irealised since that it's because
everything Asuma is designed tograb your attention.

(19:34):
Everything's fighting.
Everything's designed there tofight for your attention. And in
an overstimulated state. That'sway too much

Yeah. And that is interesting to think about.
Yeah, like the different areasof our environment that like
they would require higher energysources or or more energy to go
into them and still be able tocome out because I know what you
mean. I find supermarketsexhausting. They're so bright
and It's loud. And it's echoey.
And it's yeah, it's it's a loton, actually. Yeah, absolutely.
So with that, the programme thatyou that you went through how

(20:08):
long were you, you know, doingthat outpatient programme?

So I was living in Warrnambool, and the
outpatient centre was inGeelong, so that's about two
hours away, and a half to twohours. So, and I was still
trying to work. So my parentshad very wisely sort of pushed
me to keep working, because attimes on this boom, bust cycle,

(20:37):
it was just too much, I wasconstrained to become concerned
about what was going on. What onearth was going on with my head
because my whole system was kindof shutting down. You know,
everything would start to fail,if you like, you know, I'd be
getting the headaches, which atthe start had been acceptable,
which had become more severe andmore persistent, and nausea. And

(21:04):
I began, it was becomingincreasingly sort of nauseous
and unbalanced if I was notfeeling right. And cognitively,
I didn't feel very clear. So Ifeel really foggy. And like, I
couldn't think and I'd beconcerned about that. And so
then, you know, then you'reassessing to see if I am if I am
I thinking, Am I with it, like

It's a vicious circle.

Oh, it's a vicious circel. And so, um, what
else I don't know. So I guessyou've all these symptoms have
become stronger and stronger.
And so I was concerned aboutthose and are singing, and when
you would stop, and you wouldrest that would subside. And so
as I explained, I would havewhat was initially like a
weekend of rest, and then Iwould kind of all subside and
I'd be feeling good. And I thinkI'm good to go. And then I'll

(21:48):
jump back into work. And thatwould sort of slowly creep back
on but I wouldn't really listento them, I'll just persist until
the end of the week. And thenthat would be at a state with
our so in inflamed and revved ifyou like that I was really
struggling to operate in theworld. And so I think at the
time, I was quite concerned, andI guess, previous knowledge

(22:10):
around concussion was, you know,if you saw an old school GP,
they'd say, line a dark roomuntil symptoms subside. So
there's a little part of youthat's thinking, Maybe I should
just belong in a dark room untilthese side and I, you know, give
myself enough time to lie there.
And this resolve that, I guessthat's probably quite an old

(22:33):
school view. And anyway, sothere was some sort of concern
about wanting to do that. And myparents at the time sort of
pushed me or encouraged mestrongly to keep going to work
in whatever form and that wasprobably one of the first things
that the, the team at GraceMichela suggested was actually
cutting work back to halftime.
So I would go in, and I thinkinitially, it might have been
halftime every second day. So Isuppose because their medical

(22:57):
team and you're getting amedical certificate, and they
would write that in my workplacewas incredibly supportive. I was
really fortunate. Not everyone'slike that. And you know, so
yeah, that was just reallylucky. So I could do that. So
that was a big thing. They sortof cut it back to half time.

And did you notice a difference with that,
like, once he started to reducethose hours at work? Did you?
Did it start to feel like you'rekind of being able to make
headway on some of those likeexhaustion, headache, nausea
type symptoms?

It's funny, I guess I did. At the time, I
always felt like I was kind ofworking at threshold. Yeah. Like
I was probably just not veryaware of, or very good at
listening to what my body and mysymptoms were telling me.

Probably because that is that's universal. I
think for a lot of us,especially if you're in you
know, a lot of different sports,you actually learn to ignore
pain, soreness, discomfort,things like that, because you're
pushing to do things. So Iimagine like I'm almost
picturing, like relearning,listening to the body. Because I
think I don't know, I guess Iprobably put this into my own

(24:10):
personal circumstances, but Iknow I'm, I can be bad at that.
Yes. And then you sort ofrealise that you've gone too
far. Yeah. And but by then it'stoo late. You've already passed
that threshold before? And it'slike, Oh, good. Yeah, that's
really interesting that, yeah,that it was almost scarier.
You're re relearning. We'regoing through that. That

(24:30):
thresholding

hmm. And I think I was very slow. So just for
context to this was that aninitial injury or you know,
bump? Wakeboarding for was sevenand a half years ago? Yeah, I
think and I'm 34 now, so. Yeah,it was in my late 20s. And yeah,

(24:54):
I think I was a really slowlearner, of graded anything. You
know, I think I've always beenvery much, you're either 100%
in, or I'm not doing, you're notin at all. And through just
repetition, and getting knockeddown. Like, No, you need to do
this graded, very slowly seen,and I appreciate now, the the

(25:22):
benefits and the advantages indoing something. And that could
be anything, you know, in agraded way. Like, during COVID,
I did a couch to 5k programmebecause I, you know, like the
app. Yeah, and I was comfortablethat point. And we can talk
about that later, like that Ihad was good to go. And I was
100%. But I still hadn't run forseven years, I used to run a

(25:45):
lot. And so that sort of reallyhighlights that I in the past if
someone said I'd do a catchstick 5k There's this app, you
know, in eight weeks, eightweeks, like no, I can run 5k
Today, I'll do it tomorrow. Andso whereas I'm much more happy
to do that now. And I think Ijust get that it works for our
bodies, and our brains andeverything, it just work on a

(26:09):
year that is quite even if wedon't want to do that, for
whatever reason. It's verybeneficial to our systems. Yeah.
And so that was great. I mean,eight weeks. It's amazing. Like,
you've clicked the fingers, andit's gone. And you're running
five games if you're good. Nextday after. Exactly.

So what what's sort of happened? I guess,
you've gone into this theprogramme where you're kind of
getting some personalised adviceabout pacing, reducing work,
what's what have happened withyour symptoms over time?

Well, I guess there's sort of the meta view or
the broad view or the microview. And so at a broad level,
they trended up, you know, theygradually increased. And you
would say, oh, that's, that'sreally good. But that isn't how
I necessarily felt at the time.
So on the kind of micro day today, week view, I was still sort

(27:08):
of boom busting, and are stillit was, it was a battle and a
grind. And it didn't often itdidn't feel like I was making
progress, or moving forward. Andso it's really important, I
think, sometimes and you canonly do that over a broader

(27:30):
timescale, they kind of standback and go, hang on, have I
made improvement here, am Igoing in the right direction, I
guess the other thing is, youmight be making improvement, but
you might not be to yourexpectation of time. So when
you've initially got anexpectation that I'm going to be
good to go in a week, or that,you know, you've got all these

(27:50):
things and calendar, you've gotweddings lined up and you've got
trips lined up. It's goodweather. So you want to be going
surfing like the middle ofsummer, Tash. I mean one word.
So I want to go waterskiing, andwakeboarding. First of all,
tonight, exactly, and my,probably my brain and my
expectations of what I wanted tobe doing. Again, you can sit
back now and go, Oh, yeah, itwas all trending in the right

(28:12):
direction. But at a timescalethat I wouldn't have wanted to
know about at that point. Ididn't, you know, I think you'd
start reading stuff. And theywould talk about six weeks or
this period or that period. And,you know, I was only interested
in the shortest possible time.
Whereas, yeah, so it wasdefinitely fluctuated short

(28:34):
term. You know, I was a slowlearner, as I said, of that, of
doing things graded. But as youstand back, it did trend up.

And I think that that actually is such a, that
hits home to me a lot. That'ssuch an important message, that
idea that it doesn't feel likeyou're improving when you look
into the minutiae, small scale,but stepping back, it actually
is. And I think that is hard tofeel like something's proving,
if you're, if basically whatyou're trying to do most of

(29:03):
times is pushing things just tothreshold and not over because
that push the thresholds prettyimportant, but then you kind of
constantly feel almost likecrap. Yes, a lot of the time. So
it feels like I guess I, I see,we do see this when we work with
people who have pain, thatoftentimes we're trying to
increase activity, and you'realways pushing to that, that

(29:25):
point where it's starting tofeel uncomfortable, it's
starting to increase in pain. Soit doesn't feel like it's
definitely getting betterbecause you're feeling pain.
Most days. It's never counsel.
That's right. But I think what athat's such an important point
that that that trajectory isstill going. It just takes that
step back. But I take your pointabout two expectations of time.
I'm quite impatient. I hear you.

And so I suppose to describe what that looks
like. Yeah, so the keystrategies that I was using at
that time that were, I guess,taught to me by that team. The
first one was I that if you, wetalk about that energy bar
again. So the life bar if youlike in the top right hand

(30:09):
corner of your screen, if yousee you're looking at through
your eyes, if I'm running full,I would, I guess at the point I
was seeing Grace Michela tobeat. So the clinic, you know,
to begin with, I think I wouldlast an hour and a half to two
hours. And every hour and a halfto two hours, I would need to

(30:31):
lie down in a dark room for 15minutes. And doing that would
allow my energy bar to fill backup. And then I'd be good to go
again. And the symptoms wouldn'tgenerally be there. And I'd be
feeling pretty good. But by thetime I got to that hour and a
half, two hour period, I'd bestarting to slur, I'd be

(30:53):
becoming unstable, I'll bestarting to fog would be coming
into my, my sort of thinkingspace, starting to get a
headache, it'd be starting tofeel nauseous. And if I wasn't
really aware of the time, Iquickly became aware, something
was up and about, ah, it's likean hour and a half, two hours, I
need to lie down now. And so,over time, I reduced, I guess

(31:21):
that time. So you know, 15minutes to 14 minutes. And you
know, I literally just had, youknow, got a phone in my pocket
and has a great, you know, onthe clock thing, there's a great
countdown timer, that I haveused that. So you know, it's
always said on whatever you'vehad it on. So like that would go

(31:43):
from sort of 15 to 14 to 13 to12, to, you know, slowly, and
then the gap between them. Sofrom, you know, every hour and a
half, two hours to sort of getslowly great. And that might be
over two weeks. So I go over,you know, I might be at 10
minutes, you know, and I got tothe point where I didn't have to
be lying horizontally in a darkroom, but I could just sit and

(32:05):
close my eyes. And that was abig thing. Because you can sit
and close your eyes, anywhere.
It's quite amazing. I've sat andclose my eyes. And some, you
know, you can if you're inMelbourne, I remember I was the
first few times I went toMelbourne after like years
later. And I'd have gone tosomewhere to see people but I
might be on a street and yousort of trying to I don't know,

(32:25):
you don't really want to go intoall the details. He wouldn't
tell people all the stories, butyou would excuse yourself for
some reason. And shuffle thataround the corner, be sitting in
some alley and like sit on somemilk crate beside all the
rubbish or something and justclose your eyes for at that
point, it was six minutes, justput the timer on. And that was

(32:45):
so regenerative, regenerative. Ireckon that's definitely. Yeah.
And so I think that's I mean, Iactually still use that. So I
got to a point where I don'tthink I needed it anymore. But I
actually decided I realised thatI said, Sorry, that's every four

(33:07):
hours there about four to fivehours, I'll still stop whatever
I'm doing. If I need to removemyself from where I am, or if
I'm doing it wherever I am, I'llput on the timer, three minutes,
I'll just close my eyes. AndI'll just either just close my
eyes and kind of switch off. Or,if I'm distracted, I'll just

(33:28):
start listening to noises aroundme. So if I do that, right now,
I can hear the projector harm.
To my left, I can hear sometraffic or something behind me,
I can hear this kind of low humof the air conditioner above, I

(33:49):
can hear my hand moving in theair to the right or must be
something with the February. AndI don't know for me that was
really, really grounding. I knewthat if I just stopped doing it,
which I could have, I would sortof just never stop. And so I
decided at that point, it'sactually quite healthy habit
just to sustain in life becauseyou actually stop and you pull

(34:11):
yourself out of whatever youdoing. So I've sort of just kept
that.

That's a really good so you're kind of
explaining that those thosetaking those mini breaks and
structured so that you know thatyou need to do that. But then
also using those kind ofgrounding techniques to just
centre yourself where you are.
And do you find what those onesis it with those? You're
noticing what's around you. Areyou also noticing internal
sensations or is it mainly?

I'm aware that in mindfulness, people have
various techniques, and oftenthat will be feeling sensations
in your body or noticingthoughts or different things for
me. Like I meditate now, alittle bit so I've sort of found
that really useful as well. So Imight meditate might just put on

(34:58):
the calm app. That's reallygood. For our 10 minute
meditation, I'll try to do thatonce a day cuz I find that
really a really good life thing.
And really calming and centeringand sort of, I just recommend
it, it's really, but But in thatI definitely do that body scan
thing where you actually sort ofstarting, you know, breathe
deeply for first and then startat the top of your head and go

(35:21):
through your body, noting whatam I feeling like any sensations
stuff, and then I'll come backand like breathe into them. But
when I, I guess the switchingoff initially, at the point of
switching off, I was justcompletely exhausted. So
originally, I was just closingmy eyes and zonking. And then I
think over time was like, afterI'd come to from the zonk Yeah,

(35:43):
the last like, minute, I mightbe at home, I come back to
consciousness, then I might belistening.

I love that word, zonking. It's a very good
description of it.

So sorry. Yeah, so that was one thing that over
time, that was a really keystrategy. The other thing was
planning stuff out. And so thatwould say, Okay, you need to mow
the lawns, rather than, say,owning all the lawns at once.
Just plan to do half the lawns,and just stop. And again, the
status like but yeah, everythingwas just breaking things into

(36:20):
component parts, and allowingyourself then just sit on the
couch for a bit. And do what?
Don't do anything. Just just,yeah, just be

This is very difficult advice. Do you know
who I am? So do you feelthroughout this like so clearly,
as you've mentioned, this, thiswas a process that took time and
maybe more time than didn'toften you'd hope,

Much more time than I was hoping or expecting.

With that, did you find that there were certain
things that you know, werereally quite crucial, like
books, resources, things likethat, that were crucial to your
journey kind of along this?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think a really
fundamental thing for me, waslearning to have an appreciation
of neuroplasticity. And that's abig word. But effectively, it
just means the brain's capacityand capability to heal and to

(37:16):
grow. And you're a researcher inthis field, so you if I'm
butchering, you know theScripture, feeling correctly.
But this is my layman's termsunderstanding of it. And I think
that's really important, becauseI certainly grew up with this
understanding that the brain ishardwired and very differently
to every other organ in ourbody, it can't heal or

(37:40):
regenerate or renew itself, theway that our if we cut ourselves
out, heal itself. And so if thatis a thought process is quite
destructive if you have had aninjury to your brain. And so a
book that was particularlyhelpful to me, and I would
really recommend to anyonelistening to this, whether

(38:00):
you've had some sort of you're,you're recovering from
something, or whether you're afriend or family member of
someone who's recovering fromsomething, or whether you just
happen to have stumbled uponthis podcast, I really recommend
looking for and reading orlistening to a book called the
brain that changes itself by amedical doctor in the US called

(38:23):
Dr. Norman Doidge. So di D, G,because I had a friend or
colleagues, partner, I rememberseeing her one day, and she sort
of said to me, Robbie, I was upto my boss's car the other day,
and has this audiobook playing.
And I think you should reallylisten to it. And so she told me

(38:44):
about this. And prior to that, Iwould often read books. And at
this point, if I read a book, Iwould get a headache. And I
think that was actually becausein that day, following the
surfing the second impact whenI'd been surfing, and when I was
feeling very ordinary. And I waslike just chilling. I thought

(39:04):
again, oh, if I can't gosurfing, I should do something
make use of this time. And therewas a book that I was reading.
And I think maybe when I wasreading that book at this time
when I had all those symptoms,or when I brain really just
needed a rest. I don't knowmaybe that just means there was
something where it took a whilefor me to sort of be reading a

(39:27):
book in that setting again, soagain, like we said, I had to
actually slowly re acclimatisedmyself I was reading at night
before bed, I would instead oftrying to read what I wanted to
read, I would read half a pageand then I would force myself to
close the book and be like what,what happens next? I've closed

(39:47):
the book, putt, putt and thenyou know over weeks increase and
it's amazing. The brain and thebody can adapt to and recover if
you allow I have to do it in agraded way. But the idea of
trying to read this book that'sgoing to be helpful for you want
to get that information in, butI couldn't read a book. And so
audiobooks are fantastic. So Ihighly recommend thing. It's on

(40:10):
Audible, you can get it from thelibrary. Yeah, fantastic book.
And the reason it was fantasticwas because he shares stories of
people who have had miraculousrecoveries from all sorts of
brain related. I don't even knowif illnesses is the right
description

Yeah traumas, like stroke, stroke was one of
them wasn't it?

Yeah, there's just some amazing stories. And
this was I don't know, when itwas written, but it was stuff
that was not accepted, sort of..

Kind of general knowledge of that in that field
or that area.

And I just found it the most hopeful, sort of
exciting, life reinforcing lightat the end of the tunnel for me,
and so I would just listen to itand just find myself so excited.
And exhilarated by the thought,I mean, you know, I'd be
listening to someone's storyabout recovering from a

(41:11):
vestibular issue, and theincredible Doctor, this sort of
thing in the US, and it isamazing, you know, just their
curiosity, basically, allrecoveries were because the
treating doctors having to beincredibly curious and open
minded. And these things thatpeople didn't expect to happen
would happen. And that book wasprobably just lit a match, you

(41:34):
know, for me, and it gave mehope that you can recover, and
that regardless of whatever'shappening, for someone with a
brain related issue, which arepretty like confronting issues,
because because of what we'retalking about earlier, where
traditionally they've beenregarded as it's fixed, and
that's the way it is, which is avery kind of fixed mindset. And

(41:57):
instead of just opening thecurtains on that and saying, You
are these examples of peoplewho've recovered from things
people didn't expect them to. Sothat was a fundamental, a
fundamental moment for me. AndI'd really recommend that book.

I think, yeah, that's, that's huge. That that
knowledge that things canchange. And and I think what I
love about those as we all kindof go in a way I do anyway, for
the underdog, like, you know,when you're watching something,
and then it's like, a kind oflike, when I think about things
like that, because I've gonethrough, you know, various

(42:33):
injuries and other things, notnot, not what you're discussing
here, but you feel like,sometimes I do in that
situation, that I'm theunderdog. And then I'm like, oh,
yeah, I can cheer for that.
Like, if you feel like it'spossible. That's amazing. And I
think that that is really, thathope, is really, really
important. And that hope isbased on solid scientific
knowledge. And that's, I think,what I as a, as a researcher and

(42:56):
a scientist I get really excitedabout because it's not
misplaced. It's not misguided.
It's based on the knowledge thatwe know from rigorous study. And
that's amazing. Where did youfind yourself I suppose after
that, and where how does thatcompare to where you are now?

Yeah, sure. So I suppose that, you know, if we
look at that, stand back kind ofview. So that probably went for
you actually asked a questionearlier. But you know, how often
would I see the team, I think Ionly saw them three times, maybe
physically. So I went in therefor the initial testing, I might

(43:35):
have gone back, maybe a month ortwo later. And just seeing maybe
the physio, just for somethingparticularly, and then maybe I
went back once more another sixmonths later, but I would often
speak to the trauma rehabphysician, if I was having, I
was concerned about something orI was uncertain about what I
should be doing in a certainsituation, or if something was

(43:57):
pushing too far, or not pushingenough or speak to them that
were really generous, and, youknow, I could email them or I
could ring them and get somecalibration of okay, what is
what is the right amount? Andjust because you mentioned
before about threshold andworking near threshold, it was

(44:20):
really difficult to work outwhere threshold was or is. And
so that certainly took a while.
And I think that's part of theboom bust initially is you're
not if you're not aware of yourbody in you're not that aware.
That's why you'd bombast becauseyou'd think you'd find still,
but you'd push way past it, andthen you wouldn't know until you
crash. And so part of that wastalking to her and getting a bit

(44:41):
of a calibrating your ownunderstanding of what is
appropriate and what's too muchand what's challenging. Because
you're always you are alwaysworking near threshold. And so
you are always feeling prettyordinary, but you need to keep
pushing but not push too.

Did you find it that threshold, like change day
by day cuz I would imagine itmight not say actually static
even for a similar activity,like, if you were super tired or
didn't get a good sleep,

Oh, absolutely.
In terms of making changes, Iwould probably make changes
every it'd be based on feel theshortest time period probably be
two weeks before change. But,you know, there probably would
go months where they youwouldn't make changes. And other
times, you'd be making themquite quickly, because you felt
you're starting to feel like youhad surplus energy, perhaps. But

(45:29):
yes, stuff would vary, you know,as you scale in, yeah, day to
day, throughout the day, like,it was quite amazing how even
you could be feeling so bad inthe morning. And you get, you
know, once you get into the day,you could actually get through

(45:52):
like, I probably had a whole lotof crutches through that period.
And some of those were from theteam and some you just picked up
yourself. And so I will comeback to your question. I've just
realised this isn't really, Ilike it, I just realised this
some extra information. So inthat initial period, they'll
probably smell the crutches. Forone, one of those for me, often

(46:14):
I would wake up, and I'd bealmost paralysed by fear. And
that was fear of how I was goingto be that day, and whether I
could cope with with it andwhether I could get through the
day. And that sounds. I mean, iteven sounds trivial to me. But

(46:37):
it certainly wasn't at the time.
And I guess the stories that wetell ourselves, and if we allow
ourselves that's effectivelythat fear is is a voice on in my
head saying, when I wake up,right as you wake up, oh, you're

(46:58):
not feeling good. Like, thisisn't a good start to the day.
Like, you're feeling veryfatigued, and you're feeling you
know, you got a bit of aheadache already. And you've
just had eight hours sleep. Andyou got a pretty big day today.
I don't know if he can, you'regonna be alright, can you get
through today? And you know,that would then just like, once

(47:19):
that happens, it starts to like,build and run on itself. And if
you're lying in bed, and you'relike, Yeah, my era. Yeah, it's
amazing how we can have theseconversations. But But like,
really, that's just onecharacter in your head. And then
you're almost like receiving it.
Ah, yeah, it's true, I amfatigued. And then you're
thinking, wow, I was gonna getup and go for a walk. But maybe

(47:40):
I really need another hour ofsleep. And like, maybe it's
critical that I get another hoursleep just because I might not
actually get through the day andmy body, my brain might need
another hour of sleep becausehe's so overly hyped about your
condition and your brain. Andthat's just a trap. And so
that's something I'd really sayto people is probably one of the

(48:04):
most useful crutches that Idon't even know how with I don't
think anyone told me I think itkind of came from a quote, that
wasn't completely relevant. ButTom Murphy, who was a really
famous Richmond coach had thisand he was really vigorous,
energetic, positive, you know,supporter of people on a real,

(48:27):
someone I kind of idolise and hehad this quote, that was, when
the sun comes up, you'd betterbe running. And because he would
get up at like, you know, five,dock and run 5k, and then go for
a swim and then do 500 Push upsor 500, sit ups and push ups.
And so that was just him. Andeven though I couldn't run,

(48:48):
obviously, at that point, thegrace McKellar had had the head
said, I want you to walk for 10minutes. If you can walk in
nature, that's the best, youknow, calm, quiet setting where
there's trees, maybe away fromtraffic, but walking is really
good. And just notice, like,notice what you can see. Notice

(49:08):
the trees and the leaves and theclouds and what you can hear,
just pay attention to that andjust start off with 10 minutes,
again, 10 minutes. Normally, Iwould serve for three hours,
like what he talking about,anyway, 10 minutes, okay. And we
can grow that up over time, youknow, in a couple of weeks from
15 minutes, and then we might do10 minutes twice a day. But as

(49:29):
we've talked about, it grows,and it's quite helpful to have
guidance and know what isappropriate and
something to work, you know thisthen you're not questioning
whether you're doing too much ornot enough. So that walking that

(49:49):
getting up in the morning andwalking. That was my one sort of
activity I was allowed to doearly on. And so it became
really important to me and I wasreally fortunate I lived in I
was living in horrible I lived,you know, and it's beautiful
outdoor setting. So within abouta block of my house, there was a
really nice patch of sort ofnative vegetation. And I could

(50:14):
walk to that, and I could justkind of close my eyes, like just
pretty much just walk there, andthen be walking, taking it all
in. And I do that 10 minutereturn trip. And that was sort
of the first thing I would do.
And so I something to do withTom pay fees, quote, early on,
when I I must have fought withmyself a few times, and maybe
stayed in bed, and it wasn'thelpful. And so somewhere along
the way, this voice, these othervoice, helpful voice, in my head

(50:40):
kind of yelled at me, like, Getup, get up, get out the door,
and just walk. Like you canthink later. You don't think
now, you can think later. And sothat was really helpful, because
it just removed didn't matterhow I woke up. I just wouldn't
allow myself to start thatprocess of querying how you

(51:04):
felt, and whether you know, youwould get through the day, I
just turned off thinking and itwas just get up, put on your
shoes, walk out the door, almostlike a zombie, and just walk.
And then you were just fine.
Like it's your walk, you're out,you know, halfway through the
walk is birds flying over youand the sun starting to come up

(51:27):
and it's beautiful. And, andyou're noticing looking at the,
you know, paying attention, asI've said, like looking at the
leaves and looking at theclouds. And by the time you'd
get back to the house 98% of thetime, you'd feel good enough to
then go Yeah, like, Okay, nowI'm gonna have a shower. Now I'm

(51:50):
gonna have breakfast. And it wasjust, it got you over that hump.
And it's amazing how sometimes,then by the end of the day, you
can be feeling some of the bestyou've ever felt. And so things
can change really quickly. And Imean, I would have been the
first to tell you, I'm feelingso bad at this point, I, it's
not going to be better later.
But it's amazing how quickly itcan shift. And so that that was
really helpful. The other thingis, if things are really, really

(52:11):
difficult, not only early on,but later on, if you'd have
things happen, where you get aknock or whatever. And things
become really difficult, I findthat it's often when you're
forecasting out, and you'rethinking, Oh, how am I going to
cope with X scenario? When I'vegot something on this weekend?
What am I going to do to dealwith that, you know, I've got

(52:31):
this commitment, how am I gonnadeal with that I can't, I might
be not able to cope. And soalmost have this thing of like
bringing your hand like rightinto your face and going okay,
like, let's just do with this.
What's the next thing you haveto do? Okay, the next thing you
have to do is get up and go fora walk and in that setting might

(52:52):
be okay. Next thing I have todo, if I can get to work today
is when that's all you have todo. Don't worry about anything
beyond that. And then it's likeyou get to work. Ah, last one,
okay. Just get to morning tea.
And there's something that'sincredibly enabling about that.
And I think in our own lives, wecan, we can almost fall into

(53:13):
that trap of forecasting so farout that things can become
burdensome. And so it's just areally helpful tool. It's just
bring it right back to theshortest possible, just deal
with that. That's all you haveto deal with.

And I think that's a lot of what you're
saying, would really hit homeactually, for a lot of different
people, whether or not they'veexperienced any type of, you
know, head injury or anything,like lots of times people will
wake up, you know, feelinganxious in the morning, and that
can paralyse people. And it'ssort of like those thoughts.
They're thinking you need to dothings, but you're not
physically moving or actuallydoing anything. So all it kind

(53:48):
of does is generate a copy ofitself, that perpetuates. And
that is can be so stressful.
Like, I know, I love that ideaof, you know, just bring it
here, just get it to that, like,the number of times I remember,
you know, not wanting to youknow, get up and do stuff in the
morning, like a run orsomething. So just like it's
cold, it's crappy. Don't feellike I'm gonna get tired. But
like, I remember I did differentathletics in university and, and

(54:12):
high school. And they alwayssaid, when one coach has said,
You know what, just get just getup, do five minutes of it. If if
you hate it, and you still feellike garbage, quit. Yeah, but
most of the time, once you dofive minutes, or maybe it'd be
two minutes, depending on yoursituation. You're fine. And
you're actually you're pleasedthat you've done this. And I

(54:33):
find I apply that actually evento my daily life stuff. When I
have a task. That's kind ofhard. I'm like, Okay, I'll just
do it for five minutes. That'sgood. But by the time you've
been five minutes, you're stuckinto it enough that you shut up
all the other voices that youcan't do it.

So you started you're good. You've got over
that first hurdle. That's

so I hear Yeah, I think this is very good advice.
Now,

I've gone way off tangent. But actually There
was one other thing before we goback on tangent was there was a
piece of advice that the traumaphysician told me at one point
when I was struggling, and shesaid, be aware of where you are,
and keep going. And that hedidn't nerve with me like a

(55:21):
positive nerve in that, when youwere trying to struggling to
find that threshold. And youoften you felt like things were
a little bit too much. So it wasa fine balance between you know,
we talked before about youoverdoing it, probably the
longer it went on. It was morealmost just, it became more of a

(55:42):
trudging grind, because you werenever feeling good. And you
weren't feeling as though youwere getting better. And so he
was just like, you were smart onhis slow march for that was
awful. And felt really isolatedand felt really dark. And, and
so if you were trying to make Iremember this, for trying to

(56:03):
make this changes in Okay, Ineed to I've been sitting on six
minutes for too long, like Ineed to get it down to five
minutes. But I don't know if Ican do it. Like it's I'm already
running on fumes here. And shewould say be aware of where you
are. Keep going. I just foundthat really calming, arming.
It's acknowledging that yes,what where you are is tough, and

(56:24):
it's not easy. And soacknowledging that and being
aware of it. Yep. And keepgoing. And really quite
eloquently like that a lot.
Okay, you're back?

Yeah, I'm trying to remember, I think it was
something along the lines of soyou've been you've described, I
guess this this slow, gradualimprovement over time. What sort
of what experiences did you haveafter that? And sort of between
that bit, and then yourcontinued recovery? Yeah, sure.

So that went for some years, I suppose that
taught me these, these keyskills of staying started to
become a bit more aware of yourbody and your energy levels and
what your body and your brainneeds to kind of adapt. And
they've given me that confidencethat I would return to full

(57:21):
health at some point, andstrategies to sustain me until I
got there if you like. So Iwould only then just check in
occasionally with them. I guessI was just that used, that was a
path that I just took forwardreally until the last year. But
along the way, you would stillalways or I found I was still
always searching probably for asilver bullet. And that takes

(57:45):
you on all sorts of interestingand Divergent Paths. And some of
those are probably more helpfulthan others. I'm not sure if any
of them, you know, in and ofthemselves are a silver bullet.
But probably all of them arecontributed in some way,
hopefully, positively. Thinkyou've obviously got to look

(58:07):
after yourself and be aware andtry not to do anything that's
risky or could detrimentallyimpact you. But it's hard to be
really clear. I think it's a bitof a cumulative impact of all
the different things you try todo to help yourself and probably
just even the fact that you areactively trying to help
yourself. I think I've probablylearned more recently about

(58:31):
through you and that you know,your team and the work you do,
how important it is to activelyparticipate in your recovery.
But yeah, I tried a wideassortment of things along the
journey to varying levels ofsuccess. Including
physiotherapy, osteopathy,reflexology, that's where they

(58:53):
mess at your feet, very relaxingkinesiology rikey. I tried to
eat food and have supplementswhich I'd read were beneficial
for the brain. So fatty fishlike salmon, and fish or
supplements for the omega threefatty acids, lots of fresh
vegetables and dark leafygreens. You know, I try to have

(59:13):
turmeric and or curcumin, whichis a natural anti inflammatory.
I tried glutathione. I did a lotof different vestibular
exercises, you know along thejourney, which is where you move
your head from side to side orup and down was trying to
maintain focus on a point on thewall. They were prescribed by
the rehab centre. I triedfloating once which is basically

(59:36):
like a warm spa which isdesigned in such a way as to
remove all sensory stimulationinto your body. I was constantly
searching for and trying thingswhich appeared to be low risk,
but which might have somepotential gain.

I have very little problem when things don't
have danger. Yes, when theydon't have risks involved to
them, or involved with them andthey're not you know Being
charged exorbitant prices orthings like that, then I think a
lot of times, they'reexplorative options for people
because we're all unique.

Robbie Frawley (01:00:06):
Absolutely.
There were some other things Iremember coming across an app
called Super betta, which wasdeveloped by a game developer in
who had, I think, suffered aconcussion. And so she'd
actually created it. after orduring her recovery, she'd found
video games really helpful. Andso it was, it's using all of the
techniques that she uses in hergame development of positive

(01:00:30):
reinforcement, and I guesssetting challenges and, and that
sort of thing, to try andreinforce things that are going
to be beneficial for you and aregoing to be helpful for you. So
it was kind of cool. I used itfor a little bit. Meditation,
you know, I've toyed with formany years, because people

(01:00:51):
always sort of talk about howgreat it is. It's something that
I've persisted with, and it isdifficult, but I find really
helpful. And I think, you know,there are many free apps out
there. I think persisting untilyou find one, the voice aligns
with you like, some of them arejust annoying, you know, for me,
whereas others are really,really resonate. I'm like, Oh,
yes, I can, I can listen to you.

Tasha Stanton (01:01:16):
I like that idea of exploring, because I do think
often we get suggestions ofthings, and maybe we try one.
And we're like, oh, no, that's Ihate it. But But that idea that
yeah, there there might be someout there that resonate, more or
less with you. And it's kind offinding that one that speaks to
you.

Absolutely.
Yeah. So for me that that'sactually that's something I find
really, really helpful in normallife. Now. You know, if I've got
something or I just need to sortof quiet down or be a bit more
focused meditating is reallyhelpful. I found quotes really,
really helpful.

How did you how did you use quotes, like you
mentioned a little bit the onequote from the footy coach that
kind of helps you to developthis strategy or crutches, you
called it to get out of bed?
Yeah. Did you? Did you sort ofuse them when you were in those
really rough times? Yeah, yeah,

I wish I'd written them all down on the
way. Because I would hearsomething or see something
written or someone would saysomething, and it would just hit
a chord with me. And I wouldlike, fix onto it. And that
would become my Yeah. Mymotivating kind of credo try
voice, yeah, to get me throughtough periods, basically, until

(01:02:26):
it wore out. And it's funny howthey would, they would wear that
anyway. So I'd like use it untilit no longer had its magical
effect. And then I'd drop off,and I'd find something else.
This was a good one, thatsomeone that I am very impressed
and inspired by said, he said,no one and nothing is ever

(01:02:47):
broken, and can't be fixed. Andagain, I think it's just that
idea of kind of hope. And that'sreally powerful. Franklin
Roosevelt, he had one that I'vealways loved. And that is the
only thing to fear is fearitself. Because I find that
often, in this situation, it waskind of a fear around am i doing
too much is this gonna hurt meis this you know, probably all

(01:03:11):
quite just personal at the time,if something resonates with you,
and it's helpful, use it, youknow, until it's no longer
helpful and move on. What else?
Family and friends Oh,particularly family, I sort of
probably wound vaccine friendsfor a couple of years, because
they local friends, I would saybut I wouldn't, I just didn't
have the time or the energysurplus to kind of go out of my

(01:03:34):
way to see people. So if peopleeven then you had to be careful,
because it could really drainyou. But family were really
important. And I actually kindof was lucky I lived about an
hour from them. So I could goand see them on the weekend. And
it actually meant that I hadmuch more time with them quiet
time and recuperative time withthem. That was really special,

(01:03:56):
but I wouldn't have had. Andinterests are really important.
Like at that time, I feltincredibly grateful to them for
just their support and theirunderstanding. And they're
listening to me if I needed tojust vent and that kind of
ability to if you are reallystruggling pick up the phone and

(01:04:16):
talk to them. And I don't know,like I suppose you were just
having to put on a front forlike 99% of your life, like
pretending that everything wasalright, go to work, just
pretend. And then it was just sotraining. And so it was super
nice to have people that werejust, you know, they're in your

(01:04:36):
corner and you know, you're nothaving to pretend to sort of be
impressive or something to them.
And you could be weak, you knowin front of them. And although
that turns her off, and thenyou'd wish you weren't doing
that and loading them up. Ithink for them. It's you know,
Dad always had a great quote,problem shared is a problem

(01:04:57):
halved. And so they theirsupport was really important.
And so there was this one thingI wanted to kind of do to show
my appreciation that was cookingfor. And so I got really into
Jamie Oliver. And I could, youknow, hear this great thing
about him was it was almost likeaudiobooks, he had them, yet he
shows, so I could never watchhis race recipes, because it was

(01:05:21):
I almost said, like recipe book,dyslexia recipe, I've always
just yeah, you have to read itlike 700 times. Whereas you
gotta watch one of these shows.
You watch it once, and you justknow it. And so I'd have to
watch it a couple of times, butthen I'd like, over the week,
you know, I'd break it up, youknow, in the way that taught me,
I might watch an episode onMonday after work. And then on

(01:05:42):
the Tuesday, I might write thelist. On the Wednesday after
work, I might decide, you know,do half the shopping, and then,
you know, anyway, so then by thetime we got to the weekend, I
went home, and I would like cookthem this meal. And I don't
know, in a time period, when Iwasn't, I didn't feel like I was
really doing anything, I wasliterally just like going to

(01:06:03):
work to try to sustain that. Sothat I didn't drop off
employment. And I didn't reallyfeel like I was doing anything
outside that it was quiteimportant, I think to have an
interest that you could actuallysucceed in and you were doing
something for others. And thatwas really nice.
Again, I'll, this is circlingback. But I think I mentioned

(01:06:26):
our parents that sort of reallyrecommended I try to persist
with work. And at the time, Ifelt that was really
problematic. And I wasn't sureif it was the right call.
Because I felt like I needed tojust focus on my recovery and
get better. I think, you know,as is normally the case with
parents that was put on. And ifI'd stopped, it would have been
that much harder to restart. Andprobably the fear around that

(01:06:48):
and coping would have been toogreat. Whereas I always kind of
just had my toe wedged in thedoor. And now were so
supportive. And then it meantthat I could grade back up. And
it's been consistent then. And areally important, you know, I
suppose reinforcement of youthrough life. So those are all
pretty, like, sort of,

that's amazing.
Because I feel like as you'retalking, I'm, I'm making this
picture in my head of you andall the things that are
surrounding you. And I'm seeingyou as a person and I'm seeing
nature and I'm seeing walks innature, I'm seeing you know,
family that you really trust andcare about that you can be truly
vulnerable with which isincredibly brave and hard. I

(01:07:29):
see, you know, valued lifeactivities that are cooking,
that are all these differentthings I see work that is hard,
but that is still contributing,and it's keeping you you know,
it'd be nervous and fearful tonot also be in it. And then you
know, I that's just such anamazing cloud around you have
probably what we would call simsor safety in these, these things

(01:07:53):
that are, they're pushing youtowards saying, I don't need to
be protected quite so much. Andthat is such a cool thing to
see, like I want to make thispicture. Because that is
incredible. And I think that,that the ability of all those
different things to add up isalso really cool. Because it's

(01:08:17):
like you said even before, it'sprobably just wasn't one thing.
But you add into that picture,you actively seeking out
different things. And alsoputting in these strategies in
place to keep yourself groundedin yourself motivated with
quotes with different thingslike all of these things are
just a huge, big like, hug. It'sbeautiful.

Are you able to explain? Like I i understand
that when you see that? BecauseI've heard that and I think it
summer explains an approach togetting better, that would be
really, really relevant forpeople.

Yeah, sure. So we we talk about this idea of we
all have our own unique protectometer this unique system or
body systems, brain systems thatthat helps us protect ourselves.
And how that's determined is wekind of take a balance of the
safety and the danger that'swithin our lives. And so various

(01:09:20):
different things, they can be asafety or they can be a danger.
So a person that you hang outwith, I enjoy spending time with
you. So I would you'd be asafety, a safety and meet. If I
was with someone dodgy and I'min a room I that parse person
might be a danger. So a personcould be both things. But the
idea is that it's taking a lookreally quite deeply into your

(01:09:43):
own life of the differentcontributing factors that may be
adding to your need to protectyour body. So they be dangerous
or they might be adding to thefact that you don't need to
protect your body safeties, andI guess the where I was looking
at what You were describing is,is all these different ways that
you're adding in Sims safety andmes and trying to tip the

(01:10:07):
balance so that you have more ofthose than danger and mes such
as anxiety, fear, you know, youknow being being worried about
what the future is going to holdall of those things that can
they can push the balancetowards needing to protect, but
you're actively adding thingsinto the safety column to push
the balance the other way. Andthat's, I mean, that's beautiful

(01:10:30):
in terms of what we wouldrecommend, and we'd hope for
people to be able to do,

you know, very eloquent. Can I add some
context? Yeah, Boris. So youwork predominantly in pain
science. That's right. And soit's probably a great, really
good segue. I guess a lot of thethings I was just mentioning,
were kind of like, I guess,additional small things that
have been beneficial to variousdegrees. But if I'm really sort

(01:10:58):
of looking at the standoutthings that were helpful, I
guess, from that point of, afterGrace McKellar, one of them was
meeting you and the team fromUTSA. And so that was to your
academic researcher from theUniversity of South Australia.
And what are the groups oraffiliations need to be

(01:11:19):
mentioned there?

Not too much.
Mainly, you need to say nowOkay, yeah.

And so, I guess my housemate I live with two
housemates. At this time. Thiswas probably two or three years
posts, post accidents on a veryfunctional network, I think full
time. But there's a whole lot ofthings that's probably about
80%. If I was to rate myself,I'm exercising I think swimming
before work some days, maybeeven riding a bit. I think I'd

(01:11:49):
reintegrated some socialactivities as my sort of surplus
energy increase, because that'sbeen huge in my life, like I'm
people are everything to me. Andso I got back down to Melbourne,
which was absolutely terrifying.
The first I remember, I was onthe bus down there. And I was
just like, What am I doing? Whatam I gonna do if I just shut
down when I get there? Anyway, Ididn't like I had some like

(01:12:10):
little quiet times in the alleywhere well, I, you know, why
disappeared from my friends inthe pub. And it wasn't drinking,
obviously. But, you know, I sawsome people. And then I returned
to one and yes, it was draining.
But it was also such a sense ofexhilaration and triumph for
such a big step, you know,gained forward of like,

(01:12:32):
travelling to Melbourne and seeseeing people again. And so you
know, things were slowlygrinding up and you know,
improving. But there was somefundamental things that are
still struggling with and theywere tolerance to impact. So I
couldn't have been trying to reacclimatised myself to jogging
that hole through basicallythrough that period. And I

(01:12:54):
really struggled with that. SoI'd graded up from sort of
jogging in the pool, and twosets of 10, two sort of getting
shallower and then onto grass.
And I'd make some headway, butI'd always not relapse, but like
to basically descend into sortof symptom onset and having to
like pair right back and go intorecovery mode for a couple of
weeks now, I'd get a bit burntby it. And I'd probably just be

(01:13:16):
like, Ah, I don't really need tojog like, that's where I'd
prefer just to be able tosurvive. And so there are a
whole lot of things I stillwasn't doing and I had this
interest in neuroplasticity andmy housemate one of my
housemates at the time was aphysio. And she had studied at
the University of SouthAustralia. And she'd studied one
semester under Lorimer Moseley.

(01:13:39):
And she was aware because shewas a physio at the hospital
that there was a group comingthrough town on this particular
day. And now we're doing talksabout pain sites. And then it
was related to neuroplasticity.
And so she said, I, Robbie, yoube interested in this, you
should head along. So I waslike, Oh, no plasticity, I'm
interested. And so I normallyprobably wouldn't be doing

(01:14:01):
things after work. But I, therewas a public session, I think at
five o'clock at 530 inLighthouse Theatre in wonderful.
And David Butler was leadingthat. And then I went to that
and it was all pain. Sorry. Sothis group, the group was called
the pain revolution. And it wasled by Lorimer Moseley, and

(01:14:22):
David Butler and yourself andanyone else that needs to be
added?

Always Tracy

I didn't meet Tracy I suppose until years
later. Yeah. And, and myunderstanding of it and again,
jumping if if you need to, wasthat this group? Pain
scientists. And my understandingis that as a group, you are at
the forefront of pain scienceglobally. And basically like

(01:14:54):
rock stars in the pain science.
Well, that's how I describe yourrock stars in the pain science.

They get some new clothes.

And you're all phenomenal humans as well. And
anyway, so my understanding isthat, I guess the group realised
that there's probably about a 20year gap between where the
sciences and where generalknowledge in the community and
even to a large degree in howhealth practitioners treating

(01:15:24):
pain sufferers, so people whoare suffering from chronic or
persistent pain. And so thistour, if you like, the group was
riding from Melbourne toAdelaide over a week. And every
day, you were stopping in adifferent regional centre, and
giving public presentationsabout pain science, basically,
to lift the education of painscience within the community,

(01:15:46):
but also to health professionalsalong the way, which is really
clever. And so I happen tobecome aware of this stuff in
one bubble. And I saw DavidButler present to all of these
chronic pain patients. And thatwas amazing. And, you know,
really vibrant presentations.
And then there was mentionedthat there was a public out like

(01:16:06):
a health professional sessionafter and I was just like, I'm
going to sell and I'm pretty,very honest, sort of, you know,
straight down the line, so theperson and so, but I was like
I'm going to the session. I waslike, I have to make up. You
know that I'm studying physio orsomething to do this. I I'm just
going to have to prepare itbeforehand. Yes, I'm a physio

straight face.
I'm ready.

So I went to the health professional session
after which was out at DeakinUniversity in Larmer. presented
there, even though everythingbeing mentioned was talking
about chronic pain, everythingresonated for me. And it was
like listening to the NormanDoidge book and his examples of
I was just sitting bolt upright.
Normally, I would probably be inbed at this time, because it's

(01:16:54):
like 10 o'clock at night. Imean, I don't do drugs, but I
presume it was like being oncocaine, like I was just so
high, I was just high on life.
From this information, there'shope. And what you got that
you're sharing these theselearnings and these stories, and
this science, which was amazing.
And yeah, it was really, reallyimpactful. To me and I have

(01:17:19):
described this previously ithas, I think that night, it was
almost like a, I got given thisbook, you know, I was holding
this kind of pretend book in my,in my hands that I knew could
help me because I could see howit was helping people with
chronic pain. And I could seethat it was relevant to my

(01:17:40):
situation. And so I thought,Okay, I just need to, I've got
this book that's going to fixme, or help me. And it's been
it's written in a differentlanguage, because it's about
pain, and I'm trying to recoverfrom post concussion. So it's
like, I need to translate itinto post concussion. So I was
psyched. For the next few yearsI was carrying this book ran,
just thinking to myself, ah,yeah, like, I've got this book

(01:18:02):
with the answers. And I'm gonnalearn to read it one day, but
I've got it, like, I'm aware ofit. Which is a big thing still,
because like, sometimes ifyou're not aware of the book, or
you don't have the book, it's abig difference. So I was that
was very sustaining. And, youknow, subs subsequently realised
that I can read it, it's writtenin English. And the way I see it

(01:18:27):
now, everything that from myexperience that is talked about
in the chronic pain science, andyou know, in David and Lauren,
his book explain pain, which isanother book I'd recommend, it's
written in the context of pain,and persistent pain. And I
guess, the science behind that,and how, you know, protect

(01:18:48):
Amadeu works and the systems inour body work to protect us. And
that's effectively what chronicpain is an overprotective pain
system. But I've subsequentlylearned that it's chronic state,
like after probably, I don'tknow, much more than six weeks.
I'm not

sure exactly when but we go three months, but
you're very good. Probably afterthree

months, you know, really, my, certainly over
the last few years, my symptomsand symptom onset and stuff has
really probably been verysimilar. And it's, I see it as
my system being over protective.
So once I've learned tounderstand that and understand
how that happens, and why I canturn that down. And all of a

(01:19:31):
sudden, I'm not getting symptomonset. And I'm just it's like,
that's been the fight. That'sbeen really fundamental thing,
that knowledge and understandingthat that's completely
applicable to me and myexperience now. And I think it's
applicable to a variety of, youknow, neurological issues beyond
pain.

I agree with you because I think it to me
listening to your story, I heara protective feature of Fatigue,
a protective feature of, youknow, fog, and cognitive
impairment, it

is,

seems it was not unreasonable, I don't think to
think about the way that oursystems react as, when it's too
much. We, in order to stop us ashumans, when it's too much there
has to be a sensation or asymptom, because otherwise we
don't listen. And we see thiseven you know, when people have
an acute ankle sprain, andeverything starts to hurt,

(01:20:30):
we'll, that's so adaptive,because as humans, we will push
through things. And unless ithurts a lot, we won't stop. And
so it's really interesting, Ithink, to start to think about
the extent to which this existsin other neurological type
conditions as the one thatyou're speaking of, or, you
know, things like stroke aswell, we get lots of fatigue

(01:20:51):
post stroke, that how differentis this, we might just be
starting from a slightlydifferent state of a nervous
system. But there's stillneuroplasticity, there's still
changeability, and there's stillthe need to protect. So I don't
know, I like it. I think I, Ithink that there's a lot of
scope for that to really help.

I just feel I'd realised halfway through, I
still need to circle back. Thereason I told that story, and I
didn't need to tell the wholestory then, but was to explain
that this is what you described.
And that's that sim cloud safetyand me cloud is coming from a
pain science. Education, yes,description. And the reason it's
DMC might sound funny, but it's,it's effectively an acronym

(01:21:38):
that's used, because it's easyfor patients to remember.
Because we all know what a DMEis the MCM. And so dim in this
case is di m, hyphen sim. Sodanger in me safety in me, and
it's just a clever acronym tohelp people remember that, okay,
let's become aware of the thingsthat are effectively emphasising

(01:22:01):
danger in our systems or arethreatening to us, and try to
lessen our exposure to thosewhere we can, or switch them off
altogether. And let's becomeaware of the things that are
representing safety in mesignals. And that could be
catching up with family orfriends, it could be doing an
activity that you enjoy, itcould be taking an active role

(01:22:23):
in your recovery. And then byreducing your exposure to
danger, many things that couldbe I don't know what some good
examples of those

some of it can be changing the noises you make
when you move. So some peoplelike when they're in pain they
do, like big, when they get outof a chair, it's sometimes could
even just be stopping makingthose noises can help. Yep, it
could be, you know, decidingactually, for some people, if
I'm going to go on a walk, Idon't really enjoy walking with
that person. Yeah, I'm notprobably going to go for a walk
with them because I get stressedor they make me feel bad and

(01:22:55):
not. And that can be enough. Andso from the the basic science, I
guess of that is that thestudies that we do, where we
manipulate these differentthings in labs, we show that it
changes the threshold. So thethings the your threshold that
you were kind of talking aboutfor pain, it changes the
threshold at which it will comeon which pain on sets. That's
right. And it also will change.
If we give someone somethingthat hurts, we'll keep that

(01:23:16):
identical. And those changingthose different things around
people will change how much thatexact same stimulus hurts. Wow.
So so that's how we that's thescience, I guess, behind why we
we think those things matter.
And we think that we should careabout them is that we see from a
very controlled environment thatthey've changed that experience.

(01:23:38):
And that's the idea. So you haveit exactly right is that the
more that you can enhance andbring in those safety and me's
those Sims around you, as wellas reducing where you can danger
in knees, then you start to pushthe balance towards safety and
not the need to protect and yourthreshold basically goes up, it
takes more to elicit pain.

Okay, so I'm going to set can I say that
course simpler term just fromunderstanding. If that's saying
the person a you've got person Aand person B that you know, the
carbon copies of each other inthis case, but we're just going
to give them different exposure,one person, so the same injury,
yep, same treatment. But oneperson is doing a whole variety

(01:24:20):
of things that give them safetymessages, and that might be
catching up with family anddoing things they enjoy. And the
other person is maybe catchingup with someone who wrote stress
for them or

Yeah, or seeing the home and not even talking to
anyone isolating themselves

that their pain experience is going to be
different. Yes. And the personlike in a chronic pain
situation, the person who's gota good ratio of Sims and a low
ratio of teams is going toexperience lower pain.

Yes, well, yeah.
And we try to do thoseexperiments by making having
someone be their own control. Sowe randomise them to different
and but every When always doesall the conditions. So then you
actually know that that systemis the same. Yeah. Because
otherwise, that's a hardcomparison. But yeah, no, that's
exactly right.

Yeah. And so then I suppose what we're saying
in my situation is that insteadof pain onset, it's symptom
onset. So for my symptoms arecognitive fog and fatigue and
headache and nausea instability,like vertigo, on stableness,
that they will be affected bythose things. That's exactly

(01:25:29):
right. Beautiful.

I guess one of the things that I think was that
we sort of talked about a littlebit before that, I think would
be really interesting to chatabout is, you mentioned that you
had this big multidisciplinaryteam that you saw originally,
and that there may have been oneperson on this team that you
felt that you might not have gotas much out of it as you could.

(01:25:53):
Can you tell me a little bitabout? Yeah, absolutely. That
experience, oh,

give you a little bit more leading to so I
only saw that team in Geelong,you know, say the three times.
And then basically, I'd beenworking my job in Wantable, for
six years. This point on, thiswas three years ago. And I loved
it, and I loved one ball. But Ineeded to sort of do something

(01:26:19):
else professionally, and alsokind of hit a plateau in my
recovery. And I couldn't makeany headway with this. Adapting
to impact. And so there werestill a variety of activities,
like surfing and jogging, andreally, you know, even if I
didn't want to go, you know, Ihad a lot of mates getting

(01:26:40):
married. And I didn't want to goto a box party. Because there'd
be a lot of horseplay. If mates,we'd like to have a cup on and
jostle, I'd be really concernedabout the impact of that on my
head. And so, even though I washighly functional, I suppose
then you adapt to that. But Iwant more, which is good and

(01:27:02):
bad. But I still I supposeyearning for more recovery. And
so I sought, you know, sort outwhat, what else could help. And
I spoke to my team in Geelong,and they said, Well, look,
there's this concussion clinicin Melbourne at the net worth,
and they have got a dedicatedconcussion clinic. And I've
actually run a runningprogramme. So that might be

(01:27:23):
worth exploring. And I saw upperfect like, I'm wanting to get
back to running their aconcussion clinic. And, you
know, I had heard in one regard,or know that they were the best
regarded concussion clinic inVictoria. So as a river, so went
down, very similar approach. Inthat case, it was I think, in
your head person was a professorof neurology or neuro rehab or

(01:27:46):
something, not a trauma rehab,so slightly different, but
probably their understanding ofthe brain and brain science was
maybe a bit better, but verysimilar approach at a team did
all those initial tests again.
And then I basically worked withan exercise physiologist who was
really very specific graded aclimatization, to impact
programme. So that was on atreadmill, and then grading it

(01:28:09):
up over weeks. And I didimprove, I think I got up to 12
minutes over 18 months orsomething. But still, I was, it
was I was always at threshold.
Yeah, I'd probably been subthreshold for a period because I
got to a good functional level.
And then I was working justbelow it. But I was working a

(01:28:31):
really intense job where I wasworking long hours was
stressful. I was living inMelbourne. So I probably had
less, probably some of my seams,in hindsight, had been taken
away, and probably had some moredepth. And then I was working at
threshold all the time. And Iwas constantly sort of fatigued
constantly on the edge of aheadache. And also my emotional

(01:28:56):
responses I found were moreelevated. So if I had done a
running session yesterday, Iwould go in there. So once every
fortnight and on the in betweenperiods, I might do a run every
three days or as they suggested,and I would just find that would
just always be on the edge oftipping over. And when I was
tipping over, you know if I wasat work, and you're working 12

(01:29:18):
hour days, and I would just findit because I was getting much
better at awareness, selfawareness at this point. So I
would just find that I wasreacting internally to
situations strange likedifferently than I normally
would a bit more reactive. Yeah.
So meditation at that pointbecame really helpful to kind of

(01:29:40):
try to balance that bring medown, but it was really
difficult. And I was also I'dtaken on more and more so I was
president of an industryassociation at that point.
Having been on the committee fora few years and running all
these events like I was doing alot so I'd taken us playing a
whole lot more sport but it justnot an impact wise. So you know
I was doing really well. But Iwas still aware of things I was

(01:30:03):
wasn't doing. And this was mytry to get there. And it was,
had me against the wall. And Isort of got to a point where I
was like, I couldn't sustain it,something had to give. And then
something happened, my partnerat the time rolled over in their
sleep, and elbowed me in thehead and kind of woke up. And

(01:30:25):
they're like, whoa, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Like, you know, they were justasleep. Yeah. And I probably
would just wouldn't get sleepy.
But instead, I kind of woke upto them. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm
sorry. And so I was like, whoa,what? What happened? Now? I
should get scared. Yeah. And soeffectively, then
I was thinking, oh, gosh, like,I've just got, he didn't hit? Am

(01:30:45):
I okay, and you staystraightaway start sort of
assessing? Do I have symptoms?
And I guess the context for thatis I had noticed, over the past
few years that you know, youwould inevitably get knocks, so
you would get out of the car,you might knock absent mindedly
knock your head as you get outof the car. And because I was so
I'd had so many recurrent issuesof getting minor knocks and then

(01:31:06):
getting symptom exacerbation,because it's probably working
your threshold. I was verysensitive to that. My awareness
of that was probably oversensitised. And if I ever did
bump my head, or someone bumpedme roughly, I would be sort of
then looking for. Am I with it?

(01:31:28):
Do I have a headache? Am I

tired? Yeah. Is that cognitive impairment coming
in?

Exactly. And so as soon as you start doing that,
like, you're gonna findsomething. And so I started
doing that in the middle of thenight. Anyway, I went to bed,
woke up the next day, trainwreck. And it was rough. And so
probably, I feel like I wasclawing my way back for the next
two months trying to survive.
And that was were coming backthe hand right in front of your

(01:31:57):
face. Let's just get get up, getto work. Yeah, like that became
really important, had the lastcouple of events of my
presidency, including Ronnie todo this big speech. And I had
last two weeks of this job. Andthen like all these, so it was
just I just had to, like, getacross so I could slump across
the line. Thankfully, I couldslump across the line. But
anyway, did that clawed my wayback over a few months, got back

(01:32:20):
to as kind of good to go again.
And then happened again. And andsame things that happen. And but
something in my mind kind oftriggered. And I remembered this

(01:32:41):
conversation that I'd had with.
So I mentioned I part of theteam was a neuro psychologist.
So I something triggered thisconversation I had with this
neuro psychologist when I joinedwhen I went to the with, you
know, for the reassessment.
Yeah, I'd kept it pretty short.
Because I don't really know whatpsychologist does, or
neuropsychologist but it soundspretty serious. And it just

(01:33:02):
makes me think of the wordpsychiatrist, which again,
sounds serious and makes youthink of loony bins. So I sort
of felt like, both times when Ihad an interview with the neuro
psych, they were assessing me tosee if I was crazy. And, you
know, like, so I was probablyjust trying to Well, I was
trying to give as normal as aresponse as I could, and not say

(01:33:24):
anything too crazy. And try toget out of the room as quickly
as possible. Yeah. Now, I didn'treally I've subsequently
learned. That's not what apsychologist or
neuropsychologist we can makethese assumptions that we don't
even realise we're making. Yes.
And so anyway, when I'd had thatinitial quite short chat with a

(01:33:44):
neuropsychologist that mentionedsomething about how in a chronic
state, which chronic really justmeans anything, what beyond
three months, things in all theneurons in your brain can become
cross wired. And I was familiarwith this term, because it was
talked about in Norman George'sbook. But he just, I guess,
something connected to make merealise that you could have a

(01:34:07):
situation where as you've gothead knocks in my situation over
a period of time that are thenfollowed by symptom onset, you
also have an emotional responseto that, because it's stressful.
And you've after having donethat a couple of times, you
know, what's coming, and that's,so that leads to fear and stress

(01:34:27):
and anxiety about that. And thenover time, that can get cross
wired into the mix. And so then,once it's cross wired in, if you
have seen, you know, stressanxieties that similar, that can
be the thing that actually setsoff the symptom onset, not the
NOC. And so that was, you know,he'd mentioned that I was like,

(01:34:48):
Wow, that's fascinating. Like,yeah, initially, I was like, Oh,
interesting. didn't relate it tome. Every now and then, but
then, you know, I think after Idon't know what this is, second
or third time that my partnerrolled over and elbowed me in
the head, I'd got to be a bed,you know, sleeping with a pillow
on my head,

very good ability to starfish, I

see something.
So I was like, I can't live likethis. You know, I can't be
constantly stressed in my sleepthat I'm gonna get elbowed in
the head. And then I'm going tobe wiped out for the next two
months. But something about oneof them. I thought that was so
light, like, surely thatcouldn't have been enough to
give me a concussion. And so itjust planted this seed of if

(01:35:32):
that wasn't enough to actuallycaused the symptoms. I was
pretty stressed. Like I wasprobably a bit stressed, then,
wasn't it? Robert? Yeah. You'reworried about it, for sure. And
you were assessing to see if hehad symptoms, is it so I sort of
maybe wonder if it's possiblethat that cross wiring thing
that he mentioned is possible.

(01:35:55):
And so I booked an appointment.
And I think I get a little bitmixed on the timing. But I'd
also started, maybe prematurelydoing these interviews, that was
probably also a bit of an activesearch for me of how other
people recovered. And I had thisfantastic conversation with the
gentleman called we'll call whohopefully, if you've heard the
the interview, and you won'thave those listening. And he

(01:36:18):
talked about how important therelationship with his
neuroscience colleges has been.
And he kept talking about oursinking, man, like, I didn't
really talk to theneuropsychologist at all. And I

(01:36:40):
was like, There's something Ididn't miss something like I, he
was really important to him. Andhe seems to be in a really good
place. So maybe this issomething worth re exploring.
And so I think I came away fromthat and immediately booked in
to see the neuro psychologistyet worth again, even though I
was barely even going in thereat this point, because basically
on a break to kind of recoupbefore I reset and try it again.

(01:37:04):
I went in, and sort of there wasa different neuropsychologist in
there at that point. And I said,Look, you know, I don't think
you've ever met me, this is thebackstory. I was told this. This
is what's been happening. Do youthink it's possible that this
could be like Crosswater? It'smy reaction to it emotionally
getting concerned about gettinghit that could actually be
causing the symptom onset? Andhe's like, yeah, absolutely.

(01:37:28):
Just got, okay. Yeah,absolutely. And then just kind
of looked at me, like he wasreally good. He was that classic
kind of guy who would just askyou a question very slowly and
calmly and evenly. And thenlook. And it was so awkward. He

(01:37:48):
just had that way of really justsilence. And I was kind of like,
I have to be just silence. Hedidn't add any more. I was like,
Well, do you think you couldhelp me with that? Like, do you
think there's anything you coulddo to help me with that? And
he's like, yeah, yeah, I couldgive you some tools as a great,
like, let's, let's do it. And sohe taught me this really helpful

(01:38:09):
tool. It's really simple. It'sreally basic, but it's been
fundamental for me, in myrecovery, and I still use it, I
think you can use it in everydaylife, for any anything going
forward. And basically, he saidto me, Look, you know, that
voice you have in your head, whosort of sits on your shoulder

(01:38:30):
andtells you, you know, you're good
at stuff, he's talking in yourear. He said, for me, I call him
Fred. Like, give give him aname. Or give that person a
name. For me, I call him Fred.
And he said, Look, I have togive a presentation. So you
know, I have to speak atconferences and every now and

(01:38:51):
then I don't really like publicspeaking. And he said, so, you
know, a month out from speakingpresentation, Fred will start
getting in my ear and telling meI you haven't prepared enough
for this presentation. You don'teven good at public speaking
didn't really know what you'retalking about. You're gonna be
rubbish. And he said, Look, assoon as you become aware of a

(01:39:13):
Fred telling you a story in thatway, just say to yourself, Ah, I
see what's happening here. Fredis telling one of these
catastrophizing stories. It'snot helpful to me now, however,
so I'm not going to listen toit. Thank you, though for it.
And that was it. So he tells methat sort of like, yeah, that's

(01:39:35):
That's it. But I liked it. So Isort of was mulling on it and
thinking about it. I like theway that instead of just telling
Fred to bugger off and shut up,you kind of acknowledging and
appreciating and thanking Fredfor his input because
ultimately, Fred, this littlevoice on his shoulder is is got
your best interests at heart andis trying to help you and trying

(01:39:57):
to protect you. But I supposeit's just differentiating
yourself from the voice andstanding back from it and going,
okay, yes, there is thisinternal dialogue. And it's
fearful. But it's not actuallydoesn't mean it's correct. So I
can stand apart from that. And Ithink giving it a name helps
with that. But I can stand apartfrom that and assess whether or

(01:40:19):
not it's helpful. If it's nothelpful, I'm not gonna listen to
it. And I'll thank you for yourinput. They're not gonna listen
to it. And so I sort of thoughtabout this, and I thought about
what name to give, to give myvoice. And in the end, I landed
on Bertie. And so my name isRobbie or Robert. Anyway, so for

(01:40:40):
whatever reason, did birdie. Andfortunately for me, I got two
weeks later, or a week later, itwas very soon after a very good
opportunity to put this topractice. And that was, I was
riding to work just along bikepath as cruising along, and I

(01:41:00):
was loving it when flyingthrough my hair. And next
minute, I was sailing throughthe air. And I think I'd hit a
tree root. And so the front andthen maybe, as a result, I'd
kind of clench the brakes, youknow, instinctively, and so the
front wheel blocked. And so Ijust went sailing over the
handlebars, and broke my elbowthat also broke my helmet, like

(01:41:23):
landed on my helmet rolled outof it. And if you'd told me that
that was going to happen anytimein the previous seven years, six
years a time. I would have justsaid why. I might be a
vegetable. Like I don't knowwhat that would have been the
most terrifying thought I justabsolutely. And so immediately,

(01:41:45):
I kind of rolled out and I waslike chit, chit, chit, chit,
chit. And then I sort ofthought, hang on. No, this is
like perfect timing. You know,this is the perfect opportunity
to put this to practice. And soI immediately started using that
technique and saying, Ah, I seewhat's happening here. Bertie is
telling one of thesecatastrophizing stories that

(01:42:08):
because I've like landed on mybroken my helmet and landed on
my head that this is going tonegatively, you know, it's just
going to result in a confirmedconcussion, or it's going to
result in things flaring. Butthat's not actually helpful,
Bertie, so I'm not actuallygoing to listen to you. Thank
you, though. And pretty much Iwas just doing that on a

(01:42:30):
repeating cycle. For the next 24to 48 hours mixed in with I
think the original neuro psychit also taught me another
technique about grounding, whichpeople talk about in
mindfulness, where you'll say toyourself, What can I What can I
hear? And you'll then justreally focus on okay, what can I

(01:42:50):
hear so similar to as I wasdescribing before, I can hear
the projector thing over to myleft, humming, can hear my
voice. I can hear a slight humover to my right, what can I
see? What can I feel and goingthrough those senses and which
is a really helpful kind ofgrounding pulls you out of your
head, pulls you into thepresent. It's quite easy to do.

(01:43:13):
You can just keep doing it oncycle on and so really heavily
was just focusing on thosebecause nearly birdie would
start sneaking in there. But wasit a big enough knock? Like it
was a pretty big knock? Was thistool really relevant? Big knocks
like that and be like, Ah, I seewhat's happening. Come birdie.
Thank you. Isee. Yeah. And so just
repeatedly, repeatedly doingthat. And the symptoms never

(01:43:36):
started. And that was the mostyou know if the if the match if
Norman Doidge book was the kindof match at the start. That was
just the most powerfulreinforcement of that tool. And
I suppose the science of whatwas going on in my head. And

(01:43:59):
yeah, it was really, reallypowerful.

Yeah, that's incredible. Because you you hear
that story as someone like Itrained as a physiotherapist
originally, and we learned alittle bit about concussions and
it would be something that Iwould say, I it's not
unreasonable. That birdie issaying that, do you know what I
mean? Fair enough. Birdie, but Ithink you're right, that is just

(01:44:29):
that's such a, a huge comingtogether of everything, that all
of the things that you'velearned and that you did, and
that kind of put you in thatright place to be able to deal
and have strategies in place forwhat to do. And that's it's
incredible, because I think likewe were having a little bit of

(01:44:50):
this discussion before about howsometimes voicing things and
verbalising and being aware ofwhat those voices might be
saying Whether or not you hearit as a real voice, where it's
it's that feeling that isinduced by your thoughts around
that, that issue that just canbe so powerful. And being aware

(01:45:11):
of it, I don't think issomething that we necessarily,
it comes like, it comes easilyto us like, I do think it's
probably something that we endup having to learn. And that
balance between being veryaware, but also aware of what
your thoughts and beliefs andthings like that can also have
upon symptoms. So not only werebody symptoms, being aware of

(01:45:34):
the other influences of that, soit's pretty cool stuff, man.

Thank you. Well, you're a massive part of it. And
I should actually, there'sanother little part of that the
reason I was writing to work,and that is because the pain
revolution, because I was stillsubscribed to the emails. Yeah,
I was still engaged with it, itstill made sense to me, I still
emailed you on occasion. Yeah,just sort of touching base and

(01:46:02):
giving you updates on wherethings were at. And I just
followed it, I found itinteresting. And I knew that it
was helpful in some way, as I'vereferred to, before, I just
didn't know how to tap into itfor my situation. And I suppose
there's this discussion ofprotection over protection that
we've spoken about. And sosomething in my mind started to
just sort of trigger around. Youknow, there's all these things

(01:46:26):
and I'm not doing and maybe I'mbeing overly protective of
myself, like, really, every timeI say no to something, no, I
can't come surfing, I'd love tocome surfing, but I can't
because blah, blah, blah, youknow, I can't go skiing with
you. Because now I can't gocycling because blah, blah,

(01:46:47):
blah. Every time I just realisedevery time I say no to
something, effectively, I'dcreated these walls, I picture a
glass wall around me, above me.
And every time I said no, it waslike a strengthening those walls
and that ceiling that was justgonna contain me in it. I really
what triggered that. Because I'dnever thought that thought of

(01:47:07):
that before. But so I just sortof suddenly thought I need to
break through these walls andthe ceiling that I've
constructed around myselfbefore. They're like brick walls
that I can't get through. And soI'd obviously always been
interested in the painrevolution and that ride from
Melbourne to Adelaide. And youknow, subsequent years, it's
been travelling throughdifferent areas and different

(01:47:29):
regions every time targeting adifferent area and stopping in
different regional centres andspreading the good word of pain
sides. And and so I'd sort ofbeen interested in so I wonder,
I wonder if one day I could dothat. But it always seemed far
off and fanciful. And I think myparents pretty much banned me
from riding riding a bikebecause it was far too dangerous

(01:47:51):
risk reward wasn't there, you'reon the road exposed to people.
So there's something I thinkthere was maybe the call out for
the next pain route, which we'regoing to be through so Victoria.
And so that was just this again,this little thought that aim is
exactly what I need to do. Likeit is the risk reward. It just
doesn't make any sense. Like ifyou looked at it logically, it'd

(01:48:13):
be like, No, you don't. There'sfar there's ways you can
challenge yourself or somethingthat don't expose you to this
risk. Because if you've hadmultiple concussions, you've
taken seven years to get better.
And then you go, what you'regonna go riding on the road for
900 club 900 k's and then yougot to train for that. What do
you think your chances of notgetting? How many people get

(01:48:35):
knocked off by a lot? Like, whatare your chances of that
happening? And not gettingknocked off? Like it's doesn't
make any sense. So again, Ididn't tell my parents I am
seen. Well, this comes from aposition where I've been
generally very, very, I've toldthem everything. Yeah, they've
been incredibly support network.
But I think that was alsosomething about realising I

(01:48:56):
needed to stand on my own feet.
And I needed to make decisionssometimes that might not
necessarily have their support.
If I deeply within myself, yeah,knew that that was the right
decision. And so I did run itpast, a friend who is both a
physio and understands painscience, and knows my family and

(01:49:18):
knows me very, very well. Sothat I could truth test it and
just make sure I wasn't gettingcarried away. And they were very
supportive. And I just rememberwhen they kind of I told them
what I was thinking and thethought process and why. And
they just said yes, absolutely.

(01:49:42):
Like it was always like with thewith the neuro psych like but
they were much moreenthusiastic. And ours remember
hanging up from it was a veryshort conversation, I'd left the
office to make this phone callbefore I either did or didn't
sign up, because there's acutoff date. And I just remember
The excitement and exhilarationand just rightness of the

(01:50:06):
decision that I felt was just soprofound. Like I was just like,
yeah. Like just fist pumpinglike in like, it does seem so
weird, but it was just felt soright decision. And I've
probably just learned over timeto trust my gut instinct, my
intuition a lot more even ifsometimes doesn't make something

(01:50:28):
doesn't make sense logically butyou feel really within your core
that it's the right decision.
And so I did that.
And I committed to training andso that subsequent fall that I
described was I was training forthis ride and, and so I suppose
it's important because I've madethis commitment that hang on,
I'm I am being overly protectiveof myself, I need to challenge

(01:50:51):
these this over protectivemechanisms like conscious yes,
that I'm aware of before Iimprison myself in it. And then
there was a deeper level ofsubconscious or unconscious
overprotection. And so probablythat even just changes, you
know, coming off the bikeinstead of then, if I hadn't
made that decision, and I wasjust randomly writing, I would
have been lambasted myself forbeing so silly in taking such a

(01:51:13):
risk, whereas instead, thatwasn't in question anymore. I
just committed to doing this andit was the right call.

Yeah, that's, I think that has a lot of merit to
the idea of, you know, thosethings that really deep down,
feel like the right decision foryou. Because I think at the end
of the day, we're the only onesthat are in charge of unable to
do a lot of things to shape ourfuture. And if there's something
that is really, you know, reallypulling and really saying this

(01:51:39):
is the right thing for me. Ifeel like when we don't listen
to those things, I always worry,those are the things that we
regret.

Yes. That's been my

experience. And regret is hard. So I applaud the
bravery. I think this That wasamazing. I was just very sad. I
didn't get to come on that one.
Oh, yeah. It was a great ride.
Yeah. So what was what was the,I guess, the most favourite? Or
what was the best part of thatride? Well, you were doing.

So the ride itself was amazing. I trained on
a road bike, I guess over thenext six months training up for
that, which was very hard. Yeah,working it through just below
threshold, again, differentthresholds, really. But, and
then did the ride. And I supposeby that point, I just had
confidence in myself, I guess,having made that decision to be,
as you say, courageously sort oftackle it. And then also, the

(01:52:30):
learning having come off thebike and the reinforcement of
birdie in the story of birdie, Istill used that. Sure, I'd have
situations where I need to useit, but I had confidence in so I
was sort of the ride justfurther reinforced my ability,
because probably previously Iwouldn't have that's quite an
insurance activity, like I wouldgo out and training and do 175

(01:52:52):
k's and be on the bike for sevenhours. Again, just even from I
probably wouldn't have copedwith that previously, just from
an fatigue perspective, was Ididn't have any queries around
that. And my body justresponded, Well, it's an so the
ride was great, loved it. Butthe biggest thing for me was I
would just tried to go to everysession I could get to so every

(01:53:14):
day would ride somewhere. Andthen that year, there was, I
think, the year that you did allof your writing, and then you
were presenting. And obviously,over the years, you there was
the realisation that that wasmaybe a bit much. And

they had an educational team. Come on. Yeah.
And

so it got split out. And so there was an
education team doing the, thebulk of the presenting. And so
the riders weren't coming inreally fatigued. And so we
couldn't always go to thesessions, because sometimes just
because we were going thereearlier in the day, but these
were sessions where again, therewas a public session, and then a
health professional session ineach town we visited. So every

(01:53:51):
time we got in in time for thoseI would go. And I just found it
really reinforcing of all thosemessages, because every day you
were hearing the same messages,but they are from different
people were presenting them. Andeven though 80% of the slides
are the same, they would do itin their own way. And they would
do it with their own spin andemphasising things telling their

(01:54:14):
own stories. And so every day Iwould get something new from it.
Or it would make sense a newlight bulb would go off or would
reinforce something that neededto be reinforced. And the magic
was just there every day andyou'd hear you can see the
impact it was having on peoplewithin the community so that for
me was that was the absolutemagic of it. Yeah, cool. When

(01:54:36):
we've been talking about thisover protective over protection,
and Bertie. I actually dorecognise now that and I've got
to be careful in how I word thisbut my family did become a
second version of Bertie withthe same positive intent and

(01:55:01):
100% wanting the best for you.
But there, I did also getmessaging from them not to do
things. And to just, you know,because they were concerned,
maybe they'd seen me in herunderstate over many years over
and over and over again, as Isay, because probably when I
did, they saw me all sort of allout. But as a result, it just, I

(01:55:23):
needed to be aware of that. Andthat was part of making my own
decisions and not telling themeverything in the end, because I
had to be against it and backfrom it and go hang on, is this
messaging, I'm getting helpfulfor me and my recovery? If it is
good, but I need to be able tostand separate from it and

(01:55:45):
assess that, and acknowledge andthink it, but make my own
decision about whether I act onit.

This is it's so interesting that you say that
because I it to me mirrors someof the principles that we look
into things like self regulatedlearning, where what it is it's
assessing that evidence or thatinformation that's coming in and
saying, How useful is this forfor me right now? How well does
this match with the other thingsthat I that I know, or that I

(01:56:17):
have have accrued? What's thesource of this information? How
much do I do I trust it in thiscase,

which is where it's really true with family is
99.9% of time? Trust them? 100%?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think but I think
that the fact that there is thatprocess going on, is amazing.
Because that's exactly. I thinkwhere we would want the goal to
be in terms of taking in any newinformation. Because I think
that's probably one of thebiggest challenges. Just
speaking very generally, is allthe information that comes out

(01:56:52):
on things like Facebook and oreven just anywhere on the
internet asked Dr. Google thatcan be can take you down hard
paths, particularly in certainchronic conditions. So I think
that point is really, reallyimportant of yet sussing out and
thinking. Is this important, toorelevant to me? That's really

(01:57:13):
good. Amazing.

And I'll just tack on to that bit to my
family. Yeah, your support andkindness and generosity through
the whole journey has beenabsolutely sensational and life
affirming. So thank you verymuch.

Big Sims. Yeah.
Is there anything else thatwe've missed that you wanted to
add?

Trust your gut, and, as you talked about, and
really just be curious, and bekind to yourself, and to those
around you and try to bepatient. And that's really
difficult. And get good peoplearound you and and keep keep on
going?

Yeah, it's interesting. From the, our side
of the pain, pain science sideof things, one of the things
that we do often identify isthat not every, you know,
therapist or health professionalthat you work with is a fit for
you. And that's okay. And ifsomething doesn't seem to be,
you know, working well, it'salso okay to switch and get

(01:58:22):
another one that you canidentify with a little bit more,
because I think there's lots ofdifferent ways to go about this.
And just even the way that somepeople approach it might not
work as well for you. Andthere's no, there's no bad
feelings. There's nothing aboutthat you you're on your journey.
And you want to find the peoplethat are your, your, you know,
your strength, your people, yourcoaches.

Absolutely. So it's a be brave, just you got,
and continue to challengeyourself and keep trying to get
better. But having said that,oh, it's really tricky. Isn't
the wheels, you can understandmore about that around not
trying to sort of not comparingyourself to the past, but

(01:59:04):
rather, were you thinking aboutwhat you might be able to do in
the future. And I think that'squite important, too. I think I
was that was not a learning fromwell, I was I was constantly
sort of comparing myself withRose coloured glasses to what I
was like before, and really, youknow, the rose coloured glasses,
portrayal I was putting onmyself before meant that you

(01:59:25):
were never taught and you neverhad a bad day, you never had a
headache, and it's justunrealistic. And so it's helpful
to realise that and stopcomparing yourself and go, Well,
I'm here. What might bepossible? Could I walk for 10
minutes?

I like that reframing.

That's sort of pretty much all I've got, but
what any other observations oradditions that you think you've
got or that you think are worthadding?

When did you have the moment where you realise
that the book that you werecarrying that you thought was
gonna help was in English? Or doyou remember when that was

not? I think it was necessarily. It was like a
transition over time. I think itwas more when I look back. Yeah.
And then I remember, lookthinking about that, when I met,
you're probably doing the painrevolution myself, you know, at
the end of that journey was sortof the fruition of that, but I
probably already I don't know ifthat it wasn't a sort of

(02:00:26):
lightbulb thing, but probablyeven doing that week, you know,
I'd obviously had a significantlearning leading into it during
the training phase. And then,probably that reinforcement of
all those lessons, and justreinforcing this is, I could
have just read this book, andapply it to myself day one.
Yeah. I probably got that overthat week or over that, you

(02:00:49):
know, six months from signingup. Yeah. Completing the ride.
Yeah.

And so if you had to say, so if there's people
listening that have postconcussion syndrome, what would
be you know, the one mostimportant thing, or five most
important things, I don't knowhow many, what, but what would
be the key thing that you wouldreally want them to take away?

He's tricky.
First thing I'd say is, it'sreally tough. And I know it's
really tough. And I know it'sreally scary. And you want to be
better now or tomorrow. Andthat's frustrating, and
intimidating. And you're stillwondering even now, if your
situation is the same, but Iwould say, the brain and the

(02:01:35):
body, marvellous miraculousthings, and that you can and you
will recover.

And I think, especially if people haven't
heard that before, from a healthprofessional or from anyone that
they've dealt with, that is apretty life changing message.

Hey, guys, it's Robbie. Again. If you got this
far. Wow. Well done. I'll haveshow notes on everything. We
talked about this episode on thepodcast website. There's a link
to that in the podcastdescription, along with a full
transcript. If you find thateasier to follow along, or to
find what you need. I do need tohighlight that I'm not a medical

(02:02:45):
professional. And that whilstTasha is a physiotherapist, the
advice and learnings which weshare during our discussions are
not medical advice, and shouldbe considered and reviewed in
consultation with a trustedmedical professional prior to
being acted upon. These are ourlearnings from our experiences.
Take what is valuable, and leavethe rest. Next episode, I'll be

(02:03:07):
speaking with LloydPolkinghorne, a 36 year old
newspaper owner and editor and aformer mixed irrigator and
father of two from Beryl in NewSouth Wales. Lloyd was injured
by a misfiring shotgun in 2013was assisting neighbouring
farmers to clean birds fromtheir crops. The injuries who
received were largely invisible,but the effects upon him was

(02:03:30):
significant. He's one of themost resilient and courageous
men I've come across, and Ireally look forward to sharing
his journey of recovery withyou. Until then, I wish you
courage and energy on your ownjourney forward. Thanks for
listening

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Robbie (Post Concussion Syndrome): Full Episode - Recovery from post concussion syndrome (PCS)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Robbie (Post Concussion Syndrome): Full Episode - Recovery from post concussion syndrome (PCS)