February 8, 2024 • 30 mins
Join Kristelle & Jace for an insightful conversation with Ken Jacobs, an expert in executive coaching and PR agency leadership. Ken shares his wisdom on leadership development and personal reinvention, reflecting on success and professional milestones. We explore the transformative journey towards fulfillment beyond titles and the profound impact of leadership. Join us for an inspiring episode!
Connect with Ken:
Website: www.jacobscomm.com
X: @KensViews
Linked IN: www.linkedin.com/in/jacobsconsultingcoaching/
Taking the Lead Podcast: www.jacobscomm.com/taking-the-lead/
Complimentary Session: www.jacobscomm.com/contact
A Siarza Production
Hosted by Kristelle Siarza Moon & Jace Downey
Executive Producer: Kristelle Siarza Moon
Producer: Jace Downey
Video/Editing: Justin Otsuka
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www.misskristelle.com
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www.jacedowney.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ken Jacobs (00:00):
I find it maybe ironic or delicious or delicious
irony that I helped leadersbecome much better leaders than
I ever was and I can reflect onmy lack of leadership at times
or mistakes in leadership andhelp them do better.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (00:25):
Today is episode 29.
Season two boom.
Jace Downey (00:32):
Why did you whisper that Boom?
It felt more suspenseful.
Season two boom, coming in witha whisper.
We're gonna end it with a roar.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (00:41):
We're ending it with a roar.
Jace Downey (00:42):
Get ready for it, because we have a surprise, we
have a very I mean, we've beenpromoting it, so it's not like a
total surprise but it's a first.
It's a first on story successand stuff.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (00:51):
His personality is not a surprise.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have avery special guest, not
physically in the room, butvirtually in the room today.
Ladies and gentlemen, pleasemeet Ken Jacobs Woo.
I wish we had more of anaudience Ken.
Ken Jacobs (01:10):
I'm sorry that we don't.
That always happened.
When people say my name, that'sthe reaction I'd like.
I don't like it.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (01:17):
We're gonna get John Goldberg from
Counselors Academy to follow youaround with a sound board and
he will press the button thathas all of the applause and a
couple of Jewish jokes, if you'dlike.
Ken Jacobs (01:30):
I'm gonna say, if we're looking for someone to
follow me in the effort ofgetting me applause, John
Goldberg is not.
He'd be like boo no.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (01:43):
Has been.
Ken Jacobs (01:44):
I can't now, I cannot, I have to think who
would do applause Ben Finzel.
Ben Finzel would be, he's great.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (01:50):
Our Counselors Academy co-chair,
amazing individual from the PRSACounselors Academy Spring
Conference, Ken.
I will introduce Ken reallyquick and I'll toss it to you,
Jace.
Jace Downey (02:03):
I was just gonna ask at what level of fame or
expertise do you get theme music?
Cause I don't necessarily needapplause, but when I walk in I
would like there to be thememusic.
That's a good like walk out.
Ken Jacobs (02:13):
That's as a speaker Like when does that happen?
Wait, the song about Ken.
I'm Ken enough.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (02:20):
Oh, yes, yes, which just won an Emmy.
Ken Jacobs (02:25):
I should have worn my, not Emmy, cause it's.
Jace Downey (02:28):
No, emmy's are TV.
I thought it was an originalsong.
Anyways, that wouldn't be anEmmy.
Ken Jacobs (02:32):
They won a Golden Globe for one song and a credit
choice for that's correct.
And I have a Ken enough t-shirtthat I should have worn, yeah,
okay.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (02:41):
Alongside your Ken F Ness t-shirt Ness
Ken Jacobs is the principal ofJacobs Consulting and Executive
Coaching, which helps empowerpublic relations and
communications leaders andexecutives to become more
effective leaders.
It does so via executivecoaching.
His company also helps agenciesgrow business, manage
profitability, improve clientservice and enhance team
(03:04):
performance communicationleadership skills through
training and consulting.
Prior to launching this companythat he's currently in this
capacity, ken spent 25 years inmanagement and leadership
positions with a number ofpublic relations agencies, which
does include Ogilvy and MatherPublic Relations old school
incredible organization MarinaMaher communications Melania Fox
(03:29):
and Lippy Taylor.
Ken discusses leadership withsome of public relations and
communications industries mostrespected leaders through his
leadership column in PRSAstrategies and tactics and that
column is called Taking the Lead, similarly named to the video
podcast on his website andYouTube channel.
He's a regular presenterthrough PRSA Counselors Academy,
(03:52):
prsa Western District, variousPRSA chapters.
He serves on the board for thePRSA Tri-State District and was
on the board for PRSA New Jerseyfrom 2013 to 2022.
Ken, it is incredible.
Jace Downey (04:05):
You have an incredible resume.
I was like do you want to takea?
Ken Jacobs (04:08):
breath I want to share with everyone.
That was my tightened intro andI think my intro needs some
tightening.
I think I have to hire Ciarzato edit that thing down.
Because that took.
You know, that was like I wasbored, but I'm bored with me.
Jace Downey (04:22):
Have you ever considered becoming less awesome
and then we'd have fewer thingsto say?
Yeah, that's also an option Upto you up to you.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (04:33):
So, Ken, I'll discuss.
So I'm a big believer inprofessional development, not
only for myself but for the restof the team.
That is amazing on its own,even better with professional
development, and I am sograteful for the work that you
did for a key leader within ourorganization.
But you know, the theme of theshow is called Stories, Success
and Stuff, and so I always wantto start off with a guess Like
(04:57):
how do you, especially with theamount of team members that
you've coached and leaders thatyou've coached, how have you
defined success with them?
Ken Jacobs (05:07):
Yeah.
So I just want to say one quickthing as with all my coaching
clients, I take pride in theirachievement.
But they get the credit, theydo the work.
So that leader on your team didthe work and I take pride in
that.
Okay of all terms.
(05:27):
So what is success?
For me, success is that Ifigured out as odd as this
sounds get out of the PR agencybusiness which I had started in
Young, got into management,young, leadership, young and
create this new path and createthis new career for myself.
At a certain point in my life Iwas meant to do agency work and
(05:50):
at another point I was meant todo this and it just feels so
fulfilling and exciting.
And I mean and I tell people Iloved my PR career.
I had some highlights, we wonSilver Anvils and other awards
and Best of Show Great.
(06:11):
That had impact on sales, right, everything PR can do.
But as fulfillment goes, itdoesn't come close to this phase
of my life.
So in that sense that I feelfulfilled every day, to me that
success and I'm picking up yousaid something specific.
Jace Downey (06:30):
I created this path so you had agency in what you
were doing and the fulfillmentyou were gonna be receiving, and
that meant a change.
Sounds like that.
You had to take a new direction.
Ken Jacobs (06:44):
Big change, big change, and we need to do that
sometimes If what you're doingisn't working, even if you know
I mean, I started young I waskind of a wonder kid, if I'm
pronouncing it right but I hadgreat opportunity brought to me
and I worked for leaders who sawsomething in me which is lovely
(07:05):
, but at a certain point itwasn't working and, to you know,
I hit the point of realizing Icould go back and hit my head
against the wall and try it andtry it, or try to be open to it
was time for something new.
And it wasn't as hard adecision as you may think,
(07:28):
Though, of course, starting abusiness like this, with no
clients looking back, like whatwas I thinking?
What was I insane?
Maybe I don't know.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (07:39):
Well, I wanna go back to the start of
the company, your company, mycompany.
And I wanna go back to thestart of Jacobs Consulting and
Executive Coaching.
When did you know?
You know, one of the things Ilove about public relations
agency owners is that we'rewhole, we're very whole,
(08:00):
different breed than the rest ofthe entrepreneur community.
When did you know it was timefor a career change?
What?
Was that breaking point for you.
Ken Jacobs (08:09):
Oh, easy, easy, In full candor, because we tell the
truth, we try to tell the truthalways.
I had this great career andthen each position was of
shorter and shorter duration and, in full candor, brutally
(08:30):
honest, it wasn't always by mychoice.
So at a certain point I had tothink about why is this not
working?
It's so much success early on,what's not working now?
And so, faced with two things,could I figure out what wasn't
working for me as a, not just anagency leader, but as a leader?
(08:51):
And frankly, I was 50.
And if you think there is anageism in the world or in the
agency business, there is.
So finding a position at age 50was gonna be really hard and I
wasn't really sure what wasn'tworking.
(09:11):
So, in full tip of the hat, ourmutual friend George Rosenberg,
we did a career reevaluationwhat are you good at, what are
you passionate about, what doyou love and what can you make,
whatever a life of abundancemeans for you, money-wise?
(09:31):
And George and his wife Arleneguided me to becoming a coach
and consultant and trainer forthe PR agency world and I said
but, and encouraged me topresent at Counselors Academy.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (09:45):
Huh.
Ken Jacobs (09:47):
But, george, then I'll be a competitor of yours.
And George said there areenough people out there who need
our help.
I'm good with it, I'm fine, andI thought that is a generosity
of spirit that really wasn't inmy DNA then, yeah.
So I think I sort of thought,gee, if I could become a coach,
could I be that generous?
(10:08):
So that was the moment.
That was the moment.
Jace Downey (10:13):
How long from that moment to actually making the
change?
How long between there was that?
Ken Jacobs (10:20):
I mean it was immediate.
I mean I know I incorporated inOctober 2006.
And I made and then startedlooking for clients, so it was
right there.
I mean it's not like I wasworking in an agency and then I
was going to create this thingwhile I was working.
(10:41):
I wasn't working, so I hadplenty of time to figure it out.
Not well needed money coming in, but I could spend full time
creating it.
Jace Downey (10:52):
Sure, sure.
Was there anything earlier onin your career that indicated to
you that maybe the path waschanging or it wasn't the best
fit for you?
Ken Jacobs (11:02):
Yeah, I can only tell you with hindsight, with
the rear view mirror.
I didn't know at the time.
So we did a lot.
We launched the one and onlyWonder Braum on all kinds of
awards, yada, yada, yada, and itwas always big and bold and
outdoors and women coming out ofhelicopters and on billboards
and Times Square.
(11:23):
And I remember being in a taxifrom the hotel to the event and
my stomach was churning and Isaid to myself look, you led the
strategy and the creativebehind this event.
You're good at what you do, sothat's cool.
You've got an amazing team ofagents, client-facing people.
They were amazing.
(11:44):
We had a media departmentbetter than anyone in New York.
So I one sided.
I mean, oh, we had Marina Mar,who we mentioned, who would come
to the event, not questioning,not like, what do you need me to
do?
How can I keep the clients outof your hair?
(12:04):
Tell me what you need, I willdo it.
How's that for a boss?
Huh?
How's that for leadership?
Kristelle Siarza Moon (12:09):
Yeah.
Ken Jacobs (12:10):
So I had everything, uh-oh, okay, so I had
everything, but that churn wasgoing on.
I couldn't enjoy it.
With hindsight I realized it'sbecause I needed to make a
switch.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (12:25):
So you-.
Ken Jacobs (12:26):
I didn't know at the time and it took a few years
after that.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (12:29):
So there's.
So in that moment when you'rein the taxi cab, was it the fact
where you said I don't findthis fun anymore, or was it that
imposter syndrome?
It didn't sound like it.
Ken Jacobs (12:42):
You know, I don't know that it was either because
my mind was saying look, unlessthere's like an explosion at
city hall or God forbid,something else, we're gonna kill
it with media.
We're gonna go national.
Yeah, branding will be there,because we figured out how to
integrate the.
You know all that stuff.
But my mind talk and my guttalk were like out of whack.
(13:04):
Mm-hmm Gotcha I couldn't enjoythe moment.
Jace Downey (13:09):
The mind and the mind.
Ken Jacobs (13:09):
So again, hindsight, I realized so that was late 90s
, early 2000s.
So it took a few years, and twojobs later, careers later, to
realize time for a change.
And what have you got to lose?
I had nothing to lose, really.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (13:28):
So when so fast forward, it's 2024,
right?
You remember those moments as aleader, as a director, as you
know, a partner in an agency,and it's 2024 now you're
coaching, and you've beencoaching for a significant
amount of time.
I'm curious the lessons thatyou learned then, or those
(13:52):
feelings and emotions, or thoseshoes that you once wore, how
often do they come back to youin your coaching now?
Ken Jacobs (14:04):
Constantly, constantly.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (14:05):
Yeah.
Ken Jacobs (14:07):
Any of us who worked for Marina Mar talked about her
expressions.
We call them Marinaisms.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (14:14):
Oh no, I'm afraid that might happen to
me someday.
Ken Jacobs (14:18):
All of us agree, we think of them once a week, once
a week and we've had Marina ontaking the lead and I said I
don't know if you realize wecall them Marinaisms and they
guide us.
They're so strategic.
And you know, one of my fatesthere were two that I remember.
One is hell is God giving youwhat you asked for?
That was from her dad, but theone I use a lot is you don't ask
(14:43):
, you don't get.
Don't ask, you don't get.
And there are so many times Ithink I gotta ask or I'm not
gonna get.
Thank you, marina.
So I think a lot of it is that.
I think also I find it maybeironic or delicious or delicious
irony that I help leadersbecome much better leaders than
(15:07):
I ever was and I can reflect onmy lack of leadership at times
or mistakes in leadership andhelp them do better.
So it's some like now I'vetalked to everybody, I'm almost
everybody I've led, I'm still intouch with them, and they say
you're much too hard on yourself, you are not as bad as you may
(15:29):
think.
I'm like, thank you.
And many of them have hired me,which is also delicious, but
that's it in their future lifeand now they've got like these
amazing careers.
But I think that I can takethose lessons and build a life
of abundance, helping people bebetter leaders.
(15:50):
To me that's very satisfying.
Jace Downey (15:55):
Leaders is a word that you're using often and you
write about it often.
What is the difference betweena leader, a manager and a boss?
Ken Jacobs (16:05):
Yeah, huge, huge, huge.
So I see the PR employee arc,especially agency.
First you're learning, thenyou're a practitioner, then,
like you're a really goodpractitioner, then you're a
manager and then at a certainpoint you can become a leader.
But that's a two-part choice.
Your conscious decision to leadhumans, to inspire them and I'm
(16:30):
not mitigating running anagency and growing business and
everything else, but saying itis my destiny to lead people, to
help them create success beyondwhat they even knew they were
capable of that's a big decision, it's a conscious decision.
So that plays a role.
But then your team membersconscious decision to follow you
(16:55):
or not, because they don't haveto follow you.
They can come in, they can dothe work, they can mark the
checklist.
It's a little transactional,but I think with leadership we
have the opportunity for it tobe transformative.
So again, your consciousdecision to lead, their
conscious decision to follow you.
(17:15):
And you've got to earn that.
You've got to earn that.
It's not that your name is onthe door or you're in the org
chart somewhere or you've gotthe fancy office.
That's not leadership.
Let me not forget your otherquestion, the difference between
a leader and a boss.
I mean, I think when you're aleader, it is so much more
(17:41):
powerful than being a boss, andI think boss is usually a
designation for someone fairlynear the top.
I've known people throughout mycareer who are leaders when they
were senior AEs.
I know someone one of the firmswhere I worked, ogilvy was
(18:02):
going through changes.
They brought a new leadership,yada yada, it really felt like
the ship was rudderless.
Lenore Cooney is someone whowould have people lined up
outside her door for counsel andwhat should we do and how
should I run?
And I used to do.
I used to go and ask and Ididn't report to her.
(18:25):
Ultimately, when she got the bigpromotion, I think it was
depressing.
It was just such a naturalthing for us because we were
already following her, gotcha,we were already following her.
So that was a great example forme of it's not about the org
chart, it's not about you know.
The other thing is and I tellthe story a lot poor Annie
Heckenberger, who does socialmedia out of Philadelphia, but
(18:50):
she was at Marina Mar, she was asenior AE, but in the media
department, and she had suchgreat influence because she was
so knowledgeable about media,about pop culture and about
other things that we would justgo to her and we didn't think,
hey, you're only a senior AE.
So I always say my definition ofleadership is if you use your
(19:14):
leadership energy to get thedesired outcomes for the
organization, for the client,for your team, for your boss,
for your peers and yourself, ifyou're using that energy the
right way, you're a leader.
And so if you agree with thatdefinition, then you realize we
(19:36):
can have a lot of leaders in ouragency or in any organization,
and that's a good thing.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (19:42):
Yeah.
Ken Jacobs (19:43):
I think you know there are people out there who
we just know we can count on,who bring it, and bring it, and
bring it.
And I think if you've earnedthat reputation, then I think
you appreciate that more thanothers.
Jace Downey (19:59):
And I'm going to say speaking of people, we're
very big on those who havehelped us.
We both have mentors or we'vehired coaches or we're really
big on the team.
You can check out the squadepisode if you haven't from
season one.
But who helped you along theway?
Ken Jacobs (20:18):
Well, I've mentioned some of the people I've
mentioned already George andArlene Rosenberg for helping me
with that career reinvention.
Lenore Cooney, who helped mejust do my work and lead my
teams during what could havebeen really difficult times.
I worked for two women agencyglass ceiling breakers I wish
(20:43):
there was a shorter term butGene Way Skoonover and Barbara
Way Hunter.
I didn't work for them in thelate 60s I was still in
elementary school, I promise butthey took over an agency in the
late 60s.
I'm telling you, women for themost part did not run agencies
in the late 60s.
Jace Downey (21:02):
Trust me.
Ken Jacobs (21:04):
Okay, it's funny, they took it over.
They realized that a lot of themen who worked for them made a
lot more money than they did.
Because that was acceptablethose days, they corrected all
the salaries.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (21:19):
That's a good idea.
Ken Jacobs (21:21):
Most of them well, it was mostly them right?
Most of the male executivesleft except one, hal Kiers, who
was one of my leaders and a hero, and it's hard when you've come
so far here I am talking to somany women agency owners, but
it's hard to imagine that only40 years ago.
(21:45):
How rare that was.
How rare that was Then inaround.
I'm going to get the year wrong,but I think the mid 90s Barbara
then created her own firm, nowcalled Hunter PR, now very big
now very prominent, successfulright and I'm telling you, in
(22:07):
the mid 90s if that's the yearit was women in their 60s did
not just start agencies, it tooksuch courage.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (22:17):
Wow, that's incredible.
Yeah, I'm going through alittle bit of a history lesson
in public relations, especiallyin the APR.
You kind of go through thefolks in the 20s, which is when
the public relations positionwas created, especially in the
times of war, et cetera.
And then 20 years later andthen 40 years later you have
(22:39):
agency growth et cetera.
This is all really fascinating.
I am curious, ken, out of thefolks that you've coached so far
, or some of the situations thatyou might have seen in your own
personal success story.
Failure is a big topic in ourpodcast as well.
You might have heard about howI failed, jace has failed.
(23:00):
People have had some reallyfascinating failure stories.
Do you have any that you'rewilling to share that are like
funny failures or failures ofirony, with that irony was
involved either personal or someof the things that you've seen
on your coaching in the coachingobviously not naming names, but
(23:20):
, like you know, I talked aboutthis yesterday in a conversation
about strategic planning.
I talked about failing forward.
Do you have any examples in theperipheral within yourself
about failing forward?
Ken Jacobs (23:32):
I think I'm going to .
I'm going to detour a littlebit.
Sure, I'm going to go back tothe beginning.
When failure comes up, I try toplant a seed.
I try not to talk much becausethe essence of coaching is
asking open-ended, empoweringquestions.
That's what lights up thecoaching clients' brain.
(23:53):
But when failure comes up, Itry to plant the seed, the
notion, and I know I've usedthis quote there are no failures
, only learnings.
Or there are no failures, onlyexperiments.
And I've really come to believethat.
And if you don't want to takemy word for it, the list of
(24:15):
people, amazing leaders in allwalks of life who agree with
that thinking include are youready?
Edison, einstein, the Beatles,the original Mr Honda, elefant's
, gerald Oprah and Dolly Parton.
They all agree that failureleads to success and it's not
(24:44):
something to be worried about.
Not only is celebrated, butshared.
Jace Downey (24:49):
Doing it publicly.
Yeah, this notion that anyonecan get through without having
some failures along the way isso destructive.
Ken Jacobs (24:56):
The most success, and I think Bill Gates might be
in that group as well.
I believe it.
There are a lot of people theyjust know failures along the way
.
So one thing I try to do indiscussing failures, I always
try to put it in air quotesbecause that just says to us.
I think it minimizes the powerof how we usually think about
(25:20):
failure.
But I think if you look upfailure and leadership, you will
see so many examples of leadersAgain, all walks of life who
not only failed but value theirfailure and celebrate it.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (25:40):
Well, ken , we're going to start wrapping
up here really really quickly.
Ken Jacobs (25:44):
Did we just start?
I know it goes so fast.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (25:48):
I mean okay, so here's a more personal
question.
Ken Jacobs (25:51):
Uh-oh.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (25:53):
And it's a good way to kind of talk about
this, because I'm a bigbeliever in life, liberty and
the pursuit of happiness.
The pursuit of happiness is oneof my favorite movies.
At the end of the day, how willyou know you, mr Ken Jacobs?
How will you know you lived agood life.
Ken Jacobs (26:13):
Yeah, this is going to sound odd.
I'm already feeling that it'snot at all.
I've spent a good 17 years giveor take, helping people become
inspiring leaders.
To become inspired andinspiring leaders to manage and
(26:38):
walk through their fear to askfor what they want.
To give feedback, constructivefeedback that needs to be given
Um, so that I chose that lifeand I get to do that makes makes
me feel great about thosechoices and I like to think I'm.
(27:02):
I mean, one of the things Ipeck is where I did my coaching
training and some of mycertification Institute for
professional excellence incoaching and and what what gets
us going is we are trying tomake the world a better place,
one coaching client at a time.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (27:25):
It's powerful.
Ken Jacobs (27:26):
Ken, that's powerful .
That's what it is for me,ladies and gentlemen, Ken Jacobs
.
Jace Downey (27:31):
I was going to drum roll.
I know I was going to drum roll, but Justin would kill me, yeah
.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (27:36):
We're so thankful, Ken.
I hear that you might actuallyhave a complimentary session for
some folks.
Can you talk about that reallybriefly?
Ken Jacobs (27:43):
I do.
I believe that if I'm given anopportunity to give a leadership
symposium or a webinar or speakor appear on a podcast, if
anyone's listening and you'dlike to become a better leader,
I'm happy to offer acomplimentary session 45 minutes
.
If you're not leading the wayyou want, if you've got things
(28:07):
getting in the way, if you wantto go from good leader to great
to consistently great, if you'rehaving a challenge at work
leading someone, if you'rehaving a challenge speaking to
your whatever it may be, I'mhappy to offer a 45 minute
complimentary session.
And I always say you may besurprised at what we can achieve
(28:28):
in 45 minutes.
Jace Downey (28:30):
Absolutely and take him up on that, truly 100%.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (28:33):
Why wouldn't, you, why wouldn't you?
Jace Downey (28:35):
You guys are here obviously to learn.
You're wanting to get things,but we'll put the info for that
in the description.
And I have a surprise for you,Ken.
I got to break it to you.
You are that generous, graciousleader.
You talked about having been aninspiration to you and you
thought well, I ever be thatgenerous and gracious?
(28:55):
What an offer.
So you're there.
Ken Jacobs (28:59):
My pleasure Thank you.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (29:00):
Thank you , Ken, and if people want to get
in touch with you, they canfind you on LinkedIn.
Just send a search for KenJacobs PCP.
They can contact you via email,k-e-n at j-a-c-o-b-s com,
c-o-m-m dot com, or your website, jacobescomcom.
And, most importantly, you area gem and thank you.
(29:23):
Thank you so much.
In your stories of success,failures and leadership in
general, I hope inspire thosethat listen to failure air
quotes.
Ken Jacobs (29:33):
Failure.
Thank you.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (29:35):
Ken, anything else that you wanted to
add to today's conversation?
Ken Jacobs (29:38):
Yes, I am just so honored and grateful to be the
first outside guest on thepodcast.
It's just crazy and Iappreciate it and I had a blast
and thank you to you both.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (29:53):
We have this ongoing joke that our moms
your joke, my joke, my joke thatour moms are listening, plus
more now.
And so now it's even morehumbling to know that you're
also listening.
And you were asking hey, I wantto be on the show and thank you
, Thank you for your enthusiasm.
Jace Downey (30:12):
Thank you for your support.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (30:14):
Thank you for telling everybody about how
great our podcast is.
Thanks again to everybody forlistening to our episode of
Stories, Success and Stuff.
We can't wait for you to seethe rest of season two.
Thanks for joining us.
This is Jace.
I'm Crystal.
Thanks again, Theいます.
I find it maybe ironic or delicious or delicious
irony that I helped leadersbecome much better leaders than
I ever was and I can reflect onmy lack of leadership at times
or mistakes in leadership andhelp them do better.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (00:25):
Today is episode 29.
Season two boom.
Jace Downey (00:32):
Why did you whisper that Boom?
It felt more suspenseful.
Season two boom, coming in witha whisper.
We're gonna end it with a roar.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (00:41):
We're ending it with a roar.
Jace Downey (00:42):
Get ready for it, because we have a surprise, we
have a very I mean, we've beenpromoting it, so it's not like a
total surprise but it's a first.
It's a first on story successand stuff.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (00:51):
His personality is not a surprise.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have avery special guest, not
physically in the room, butvirtually in the room today.
Ladies and gentlemen, pleasemeet Ken Jacobs Woo.
I wish we had more of anaudience Ken.
Ken Jacobs (01:10):
I'm sorry that we don't.
That always happened.
When people say my name, that'sthe reaction I'd like.
I don't like it.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (01:17):
We're gonna get John Goldberg from
Counselors Academy to follow youaround with a sound board and
he will press the button thathas all of the applause and a
couple of Jewish jokes, if you'dlike.
Ken Jacobs (01:30):
I'm gonna say, if we're looking for someone to
follow me in the effort ofgetting me applause, John
Goldberg is not.
He'd be like boo no.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (01:43):
Has been.
Ken Jacobs (01:44):
I can't now, I cannot, I have to think who
would do applause Ben Finzel.
Ben Finzel would be, he's great.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (01:50):
Our Counselors Academy co-chair,
amazing individual from the PRSACounselors Academy Spring
Conference, Ken.
I will introduce Ken reallyquick and I'll toss it to you,
Jace.
Jace Downey (02:03):
I was just gonna ask at what level of fame or
expertise do you get theme music?
Cause I don't necessarily needapplause, but when I walk in I
would like there to be thememusic.
That's a good like walk out.
Ken Jacobs (02:13):
That's as a speaker Like when does that happen?
Wait, the song about Ken.
I'm Ken enough.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (02:20):
Oh, yes, yes, which just won an Emmy.
Ken Jacobs (02:25):
I should have worn my, not Emmy, cause it's.
Jace Downey (02:28):
No, emmy's are TV.
I thought it was an originalsong.
Anyways, that wouldn't be anEmmy.
Ken Jacobs (02:32):
They won a Golden Globe for one song and a credit
choice for that's correct.
And I have a Ken enough t-shirtthat I should have worn, yeah,
okay.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (02:41):
Alongside your Ken F Ness t-shirt Ness
Ken Jacobs is the principal ofJacobs Consulting and Executive
Coaching, which helps empowerpublic relations and
communications leaders andexecutives to become more
effective leaders.
It does so via executivecoaching.
His company also helps agenciesgrow business, manage
profitability, improve clientservice and enhance team
(03:04):
performance communicationleadership skills through
training and consulting.
Prior to launching this companythat he's currently in this
capacity, ken spent 25 years inmanagement and leadership
positions with a number ofpublic relations agencies, which
does include Ogilvy and MatherPublic Relations old school
incredible organization MarinaMaher communications Melania Fox
(03:29):
and Lippy Taylor.
Ken discusses leadership withsome of public relations and
communications industries mostrespected leaders through his
leadership column in PRSAstrategies and tactics and that
column is called Taking the Lead, similarly named to the video
podcast on his website andYouTube channel.
He's a regular presenterthrough PRSA Counselors Academy,
(03:52):
prsa Western District, variousPRSA chapters.
He serves on the board for thePRSA Tri-State District and was
on the board for PRSA New Jerseyfrom 2013 to 2022.
Ken, it is incredible.
Jace Downey (04:05):
You have an incredible resume.
I was like do you want to takea?
Ken Jacobs (04:08):
breath I want to share with everyone.
That was my tightened intro andI think my intro needs some
tightening.
I think I have to hire Ciarzato edit that thing down.
Because that took.
You know, that was like I wasbored, but I'm bored with me.
Jace Downey (04:22):
Have you ever considered becoming less awesome
and then we'd have fewer thingsto say?
Yeah, that's also an option Upto you up to you.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (04:33):
So, Ken, I'll discuss.
So I'm a big believer inprofessional development, not
only for myself but for the restof the team.
That is amazing on its own,even better with professional
development, and I am sograteful for the work that you
did for a key leader within ourorganization.
But you know, the theme of theshow is called Stories, Success
and Stuff, and so I always wantto start off with a guess Like
(04:57):
how do you, especially with theamount of team members that
you've coached and leaders thatyou've coached, how have you
defined success with them?
Ken Jacobs (05:07):
Yeah.
So I just want to say one quickthing as with all my coaching
clients, I take pride in theirachievement.
But they get the credit, theydo the work.
So that leader on your team didthe work and I take pride in
that.
Okay of all terms.
(05:27):
So what is success?
For me, success is that Ifigured out as odd as this
sounds get out of the PR agencybusiness which I had started in
Young, got into management,young, leadership, young and
create this new path and createthis new career for myself.
At a certain point in my life Iwas meant to do agency work and
(05:50):
at another point I was meant todo this and it just feels so
fulfilling and exciting.
And I mean and I tell people Iloved my PR career.
I had some highlights, we wonSilver Anvils and other awards
and Best of Show Great.
(06:11):
That had impact on sales, right, everything PR can do.
But as fulfillment goes, itdoesn't come close to this phase
of my life.
So in that sense that I feelfulfilled every day, to me that
success and I'm picking up yousaid something specific.
Jace Downey (06:30):
I created this path so you had agency in what you
were doing and the fulfillmentyou were gonna be receiving, and
that meant a change.
Sounds like that.
You had to take a new direction.
Ken Jacobs (06:44):
Big change, big change, and we need to do that
sometimes If what you're doingisn't working, even if you know
I mean, I started young I waskind of a wonder kid, if I'm
pronouncing it right but I hadgreat opportunity brought to me
and I worked for leaders who sawsomething in me which is lovely
(07:05):
, but at a certain point itwasn't working and, to you know,
I hit the point of realizing Icould go back and hit my head
against the wall and try it andtry it, or try to be open to it
was time for something new.
And it wasn't as hard adecision as you may think,
(07:28):
Though, of course, starting abusiness like this, with no
clients looking back, like whatwas I thinking?
What was I insane?
Maybe I don't know.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (07:39):
Well, I wanna go back to the start of
the company, your company, mycompany.
And I wanna go back to thestart of Jacobs Consulting and
Executive Coaching.
When did you know?
You know, one of the things Ilove about public relations
agency owners is that we'rewhole, we're very whole,
(08:00):
different breed than the rest ofthe entrepreneur community.
When did you know it was timefor a career change?
What?
Was that breaking point for you.
Ken Jacobs (08:09):
Oh, easy, easy, In full candor, because we tell the
truth, we try to tell the truthalways.
I had this great career andthen each position was of
shorter and shorter duration and, in full candor, brutally
(08:30):
honest, it wasn't always by mychoice.
So at a certain point I had tothink about why is this not
working?
It's so much success early on,what's not working now?
And so, faced with two things,could I figure out what wasn't
working for me as a, not just anagency leader, but as a leader?
(08:51):
And frankly, I was 50.
And if you think there is anageism in the world or in the
agency business, there is.
So finding a position at age 50was gonna be really hard and I
wasn't really sure what wasn'tworking.
(09:11):
So, in full tip of the hat, ourmutual friend George Rosenberg,
we did a career reevaluationwhat are you good at, what are
you passionate about, what doyou love and what can you make,
whatever a life of abundancemeans for you, money-wise?
(09:31):
And George and his wife Arleneguided me to becoming a coach
and consultant and trainer forthe PR agency world and I said
but, and encouraged me topresent at Counselors Academy.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (09:45):
Huh.
Ken Jacobs (09:47):
But, george, then I'll be a competitor of yours.
And George said there areenough people out there who need
our help.
I'm good with it, I'm fine, andI thought that is a generosity
of spirit that really wasn't inmy DNA then, yeah.
So I think I sort of thought,gee, if I could become a coach,
could I be that generous?
(10:08):
So that was the moment.
That was the moment.
Jace Downey (10:13):
How long from that moment to actually making the
change?
How long between there was that?
Ken Jacobs (10:20):
I mean it was immediate.
I mean I know I incorporated inOctober 2006.
And I made and then startedlooking for clients, so it was
right there.
I mean it's not like I wasworking in an agency and then I
was going to create this thingwhile I was working.
(10:41):
I wasn't working, so I hadplenty of time to figure it out.
Not well needed money coming in, but I could spend full time
creating it.
Jace Downey (10:52):
Sure, sure.
Was there anything earlier onin your career that indicated to
you that maybe the path waschanging or it wasn't the best
fit for you?
Ken Jacobs (11:02):
Yeah, I can only tell you with hindsight, with
the rear view mirror.
I didn't know at the time.
So we did a lot.
We launched the one and onlyWonder Braum on all kinds of
awards, yada, yada, yada, and itwas always big and bold and
outdoors and women coming out ofhelicopters and on billboards
and Times Square.
(11:23):
And I remember being in a taxifrom the hotel to the event and
my stomach was churning and Isaid to myself look, you led the
strategy and the creativebehind this event.
You're good at what you do, sothat's cool.
You've got an amazing team ofagents, client-facing people.
They were amazing.
(11:44):
We had a media departmentbetter than anyone in New York.
So I one sided.
I mean, oh, we had Marina Mar,who we mentioned, who would come
to the event, not questioning,not like, what do you need me to
do?
How can I keep the clients outof your hair?
(12:04):
Tell me what you need, I willdo it.
How's that for a boss?
Huh?
How's that for leadership?
Kristelle Siarza Moon (12:09):
Yeah.
Ken Jacobs (12:10):
So I had everything, uh-oh, okay, so I had
everything, but that churn wasgoing on.
I couldn't enjoy it.
With hindsight I realized it'sbecause I needed to make a
switch.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (12:25):
So you-.
Ken Jacobs (12:26):
I didn't know at the time and it took a few years
after that.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (12:29):
So there's.
So in that moment when you'rein the taxi cab, was it the fact
where you said I don't findthis fun anymore, or was it that
imposter syndrome?
It didn't sound like it.
Ken Jacobs (12:42):
You know, I don't know that it was either because
my mind was saying look, unlessthere's like an explosion at
city hall or God forbid,something else, we're gonna kill
it with media.
We're gonna go national.
Yeah, branding will be there,because we figured out how to
integrate the.
You know all that stuff.
But my mind talk and my guttalk were like out of whack.
(13:04):
Mm-hmm Gotcha I couldn't enjoythe moment.
Jace Downey (13:09):
The mind and the mind.
Ken Jacobs (13:09):
So again, hindsight, I realized so that was late 90s
, early 2000s.
So it took a few years, and twojobs later, careers later, to
realize time for a change.
And what have you got to lose?
I had nothing to lose, really.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (13:28):
So when so fast forward, it's 2024,
right?
You remember those moments as aleader, as a director, as you
know, a partner in an agency,and it's 2024 now you're
coaching, and you've beencoaching for a significant
amount of time.
I'm curious the lessons thatyou learned then, or those
(13:52):
feelings and emotions, or thoseshoes that you once wore, how
often do they come back to youin your coaching now?
Ken Jacobs (14:04):
Constantly, constantly.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (14:05):
Yeah.
Ken Jacobs (14:07):
Any of us who worked for Marina Mar talked about her
expressions.
We call them Marinaisms.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (14:14):
Oh no, I'm afraid that might happen to
me someday.
Ken Jacobs (14:18):
All of us agree, we think of them once a week, once
a week and we've had Marina ontaking the lead and I said I
don't know if you realize wecall them Marinaisms and they
guide us.
They're so strategic.
And you know, one of my fatesthere were two that I remember.
One is hell is God giving youwhat you asked for?
That was from her dad, but theone I use a lot is you don't ask
(14:43):
, you don't get.
Don't ask, you don't get.
And there are so many times Ithink I gotta ask or I'm not
gonna get.
Thank you, marina.
So I think a lot of it is that.
I think also I find it maybeironic or delicious or delicious
irony that I help leadersbecome much better leaders than
(15:07):
I ever was and I can reflect onmy lack of leadership at times
or mistakes in leadership andhelp them do better.
So it's some like now I'vetalked to everybody, I'm almost
everybody I've led, I'm still intouch with them, and they say
you're much too hard on yourself, you are not as bad as you may
(15:29):
think.
I'm like, thank you.
And many of them have hired me,which is also delicious, but
that's it in their future lifeand now they've got like these
amazing careers.
But I think that I can takethose lessons and build a life
of abundance, helping people bebetter leaders.
(15:50):
To me that's very satisfying.
Jace Downey (15:55):
Leaders is a word that you're using often and you
write about it often.
What is the difference betweena leader, a manager and a boss?
Ken Jacobs (16:05):
Yeah, huge, huge, huge.
So I see the PR employee arc,especially agency.
First you're learning, thenyou're a practitioner, then,
like you're a really goodpractitioner, then you're a
manager and then at a certainpoint you can become a leader.
But that's a two-part choice.
Your conscious decision to leadhumans, to inspire them and I'm
(16:30):
not mitigating running anagency and growing business and
everything else, but saying itis my destiny to lead people, to
help them create success beyondwhat they even knew they were
capable of that's a big decision, it's a conscious decision.
So that plays a role.
But then your team membersconscious decision to follow you
(16:55):
or not, because they don't haveto follow you.
They can come in, they can dothe work, they can mark the
checklist.
It's a little transactional,but I think with leadership we
have the opportunity for it tobe transformative.
So again, your consciousdecision to lead, their
conscious decision to follow you.
(17:15):
And you've got to earn that.
You've got to earn that.
It's not that your name is onthe door or you're in the org
chart somewhere or you've gotthe fancy office.
That's not leadership.
Let me not forget your otherquestion, the difference between
a leader and a boss.
I mean, I think when you're aleader, it is so much more
(17:41):
powerful than being a boss, andI think boss is usually a
designation for someone fairlynear the top.
I've known people throughout mycareer who are leaders when they
were senior AEs.
I know someone one of the firmswhere I worked, ogilvy was
(18:02):
going through changes.
They brought a new leadership,yada yada, it really felt like
the ship was rudderless.
Lenore Cooney is someone whowould have people lined up
outside her door for counsel andwhat should we do and how
should I run?
And I used to do.
I used to go and ask and Ididn't report to her.
(18:25):
Ultimately, when she got the bigpromotion, I think it was
depressing.
It was just such a naturalthing for us because we were
already following her, gotcha,we were already following her.
So that was a great example forme of it's not about the org
chart, it's not about you know.
The other thing is and I tellthe story a lot poor Annie
Heckenberger, who does socialmedia out of Philadelphia, but
(18:50):
she was at Marina Mar, she was asenior AE, but in the media
department, and she had suchgreat influence because she was
so knowledgeable about media,about pop culture and about
other things that we would justgo to her and we didn't think,
hey, you're only a senior AE.
So I always say my definition ofleadership is if you use your
(19:14):
leadership energy to get thedesired outcomes for the
organization, for the client,for your team, for your boss,
for your peers and yourself, ifyou're using that energy the
right way, you're a leader.
And so if you agree with thatdefinition, then you realize we
(19:36):
can have a lot of leaders in ouragency or in any organization,
and that's a good thing.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (19:42):
Yeah.
Ken Jacobs (19:43):
I think you know there are people out there who
we just know we can count on,who bring it, and bring it, and
bring it.
And I think if you've earnedthat reputation, then I think
you appreciate that more thanothers.
Jace Downey (19:59):
And I'm going to say speaking of people, we're
very big on those who havehelped us.
We both have mentors or we'vehired coaches or we're really
big on the team.
You can check out the squadepisode if you haven't from
season one.
But who helped you along theway?
Ken Jacobs (20:18):
Well, I've mentioned some of the people I've
mentioned already George andArlene Rosenberg for helping me
with that career reinvention.
Lenore Cooney, who helped mejust do my work and lead my
teams during what could havebeen really difficult times.
I worked for two women agencyglass ceiling breakers I wish
(20:43):
there was a shorter term butGene Way Skoonover and Barbara
Way Hunter.
I didn't work for them in thelate 60s I was still in
elementary school, I promise butthey took over an agency in the
late 60s.
I'm telling you, women for themost part did not run agencies
in the late 60s.
Jace Downey (21:02):
Trust me.
Ken Jacobs (21:04):
Okay, it's funny, they took it over.
They realized that a lot of themen who worked for them made a
lot more money than they did.
Because that was acceptablethose days, they corrected all
the salaries.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (21:19):
That's a good idea.
Ken Jacobs (21:21):
Most of them well, it was mostly them right?
Most of the male executivesleft except one, hal Kiers, who
was one of my leaders and a hero, and it's hard when you've come
so far here I am talking to somany women agency owners, but
it's hard to imagine that only40 years ago.
(21:45):
How rare that was.
How rare that was Then inaround.
I'm going to get the year wrong,but I think the mid 90s Barbara
then created her own firm, nowcalled Hunter PR, now very big
now very prominent, successfulright and I'm telling you, in
(22:07):
the mid 90s if that's the yearit was women in their 60s did
not just start agencies, it tooksuch courage.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (22:17):
Wow, that's incredible.
Yeah, I'm going through alittle bit of a history lesson
in public relations, especiallyin the APR.
You kind of go through thefolks in the 20s, which is when
the public relations positionwas created, especially in the
times of war, et cetera.
And then 20 years later andthen 40 years later you have
(22:39):
agency growth et cetera.
This is all really fascinating.
I am curious, ken, out of thefolks that you've coached so far
, or some of the situations thatyou might have seen in your own
personal success story.
Failure is a big topic in ourpodcast as well.
You might have heard about howI failed, jace has failed.
(23:00):
People have had some reallyfascinating failure stories.
Do you have any that you'rewilling to share that are like
funny failures or failures ofirony, with that irony was
involved either personal or someof the things that you've seen
on your coaching in the coachingobviously not naming names, but
(23:20):
, like you know, I talked aboutthis yesterday in a conversation
about strategic planning.
I talked about failing forward.
Do you have any examples in theperipheral within yourself
about failing forward?
Ken Jacobs (23:32):
I think I'm going to .
I'm going to detour a littlebit.
Sure, I'm going to go back tothe beginning.
When failure comes up, I try toplant a seed.
I try not to talk much becausethe essence of coaching is
asking open-ended, empoweringquestions.
That's what lights up thecoaching clients' brain.
(23:53):
But when failure comes up, Itry to plant the seed, the
notion, and I know I've usedthis quote there are no failures
, only learnings.
Or there are no failures, onlyexperiments.
And I've really come to believethat.
And if you don't want to takemy word for it, the list of
(24:15):
people, amazing leaders in allwalks of life who agree with
that thinking include are youready?
Edison, einstein, the Beatles,the original Mr Honda, elefant's
, gerald Oprah and Dolly Parton.
They all agree that failureleads to success and it's not
(24:44):
something to be worried about.
Not only is celebrated, butshared.
Jace Downey (24:49):
Doing it publicly.
Yeah, this notion that anyonecan get through without having
some failures along the way isso destructive.
Ken Jacobs (24:56):
The most success, and I think Bill Gates might be
in that group as well.
I believe it.
There are a lot of people theyjust know failures along the way
.
So one thing I try to do indiscussing failures, I always
try to put it in air quotesbecause that just says to us.
I think it minimizes the powerof how we usually think about
(25:20):
failure.
But I think if you look upfailure and leadership, you will
see so many examples of leadersAgain, all walks of life who
not only failed but value theirfailure and celebrate it.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (25:40):
Well, ken , we're going to start wrapping
up here really really quickly.
Ken Jacobs (25:44):
Did we just start?
I know it goes so fast.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (25:48):
I mean okay, so here's a more personal
question.
Ken Jacobs (25:51):
Uh-oh.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (25:53):
And it's a good way to kind of talk about
this, because I'm a bigbeliever in life, liberty and
the pursuit of happiness.
The pursuit of happiness is oneof my favorite movies.
At the end of the day, how willyou know you, mr Ken Jacobs?
How will you know you lived agood life.
Ken Jacobs (26:13):
Yeah, this is going to sound odd.
I'm already feeling that it'snot at all.
I've spent a good 17 years giveor take, helping people become
inspiring leaders.
To become inspired andinspiring leaders to manage and
(26:38):
walk through their fear to askfor what they want.
To give feedback, constructivefeedback that needs to be given
Um, so that I chose that lifeand I get to do that makes makes
me feel great about thosechoices and I like to think I'm.
(27:02):
I mean, one of the things Ipeck is where I did my coaching
training and some of mycertification Institute for
professional excellence incoaching and and what what gets
us going is we are trying tomake the world a better place,
one coaching client at a time.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (27:25):
It's powerful.
Ken Jacobs (27:26):
Ken, that's powerful .
That's what it is for me,ladies and gentlemen, Ken Jacobs
.
Jace Downey (27:31):
I was going to drum roll.
I know I was going to drum roll, but Justin would kill me, yeah
.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (27:36):
We're so thankful, Ken.
I hear that you might actuallyhave a complimentary session for
some folks.
Can you talk about that reallybriefly?
Ken Jacobs (27:43):
I do.
I believe that if I'm given anopportunity to give a leadership
symposium or a webinar or speakor appear on a podcast, if
anyone's listening and you'dlike to become a better leader,
I'm happy to offer acomplimentary session 45 minutes
.
If you're not leading the wayyou want, if you've got things
(28:07):
getting in the way, if you wantto go from good leader to great
to consistently great, if you'rehaving a challenge at work
leading someone, if you'rehaving a challenge speaking to
your whatever it may be, I'mhappy to offer a 45 minute
complimentary session.
And I always say you may besurprised at what we can achieve
(28:28):
in 45 minutes.
Jace Downey (28:30):
Absolutely and take him up on that, truly 100%.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (28:33):
Why wouldn't, you, why wouldn't you?
Jace Downey (28:35):
You guys are here obviously to learn.
You're wanting to get things,but we'll put the info for that
in the description.
And I have a surprise for you,Ken.
I got to break it to you.
You are that generous, graciousleader.
You talked about having been aninspiration to you and you
thought well, I ever be thatgenerous and gracious?
(28:55):
What an offer.
So you're there.
Ken Jacobs (28:59):
My pleasure Thank you.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (29:00):
Thank you , Ken, and if people want to get
in touch with you, they canfind you on LinkedIn.
Just send a search for KenJacobs PCP.
They can contact you via email,k-e-n at j-a-c-o-b-s com,
c-o-m-m dot com, or your website, jacobescomcom.
And, most importantly, you area gem and thank you.
(29:23):
Thank you so much.
In your stories of success,failures and leadership in
general, I hope inspire thosethat listen to failure air
quotes.
Ken Jacobs (29:33):
Failure.
Thank you.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (29:35):
Ken, anything else that you wanted to
add to today's conversation?
Ken Jacobs (29:38):
Yes, I am just so honored and grateful to be the
first outside guest on thepodcast.
It's just crazy and Iappreciate it and I had a blast
and thank you to you both.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (29:53):
We have this ongoing joke that our moms
your joke, my joke, my joke thatour moms are listening, plus
more now.
And so now it's even morehumbling to know that you're
also listening.
And you were asking hey, I wantto be on the show and thank you
, Thank you for your enthusiasm.
Jace Downey (30:12):
Thank you for your support.
Kristelle Siarza Moon (30:14):
Thank you for telling everybody about how
great our podcast is.
Thanks again to everybody forlistening to our episode of
Stories, Success and Stuff.
We can't wait for you to seethe rest of season two.
Thanks for joining us.
This is Jace.
I'm Crystal.
Thanks again, Theいます.
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