February 14, 2024 • 29 mins
Join hosts Kristelle and Jace on a thought-provoking journey in this week's episode as they delve into the pivotal role of inclusiveness, equality, diversity, and belonging (DEIB) in achieving success. Explore how embracing these principles can not only benefit organizations and individuals but also foster community and economic progress. From unraveling the transformative power of DEIB to confronting the barriers entrenched within both individuals and systems, this episode promises to ignite meaningful conversations and spark actionable insights.
Tune in weekly and follow us as we continue to unpack powerful stories and insights that shape our world, one episode at a time.
A Siarza Production
Hosted by Kristelle Siarza Moon & Jace Downey
Executive Producer: Kristelle Siarza Moon
Producer: Jace Downey
Video/Editing: Justin Otsuka
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www.misskristelle.com
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www.jacedowney.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristelle (00:00):
What is the profile of the community?
What do they look like?
What's the nuances that youhave?
And, rather than providingaggressive or non-aggressive
solutions, let's look at themfrom a perspective of are they?
What are the things you have tothink about before you even put
the how together?
["dance of the Sugar PlumFairy"], Episode 30, 3-0.
(00:22):
I wish I was 30 again.
Jace (00:24):
I was just gonna say, just like our age.
Yeah, just kidding, I would notbe 30 again.
Kristelle (00:28):
I don't, uh, no, um.
However, we have a really,really passionate topic.
Probably anger, tears,excitement, laughs.
Jace (00:37):
Confusion.
Kristelle (00:38):
We'll come confusion Probably honestly, probably
might offend some people.
Jace (00:42):
Yeah, it's a sadly controversial topic right now.
Yeah, yeah.
Kristelle (00:47):
Yeah, Diversity, equity and inclusion.
I'm going to add belonging inthere.
And you added belonging.
I saw DE.
I think that's important DE Iand B.
Jace (00:56):
So the inspiration for this was I was really pissed, I
was really it's not to say whatelse is new, what else it's not
like a character trait of yours.
Kristelle (01:09):
Very much so.
If you ask my husband, I waslooking at Albuquerque Business
First.
Yep Very well respectedpublication.
Good journalism Talks aboutwhat are some of the issues in
corporate America and the localconnection and I was reading
these awful articles truthfularticles based off of data and
(01:31):
journalism fact that people arecutting back their diversity,
equity and inclusion programs.
They're also seeing thedownward trend financially from
diversity, equity and inclusionprograms.
They're also seeing largecorporations like Disney, like
today's announcement about howthe court in Florida actually
threw out Disney's case, thingsalong these lines and I said,
(01:54):
fuck it.
It's time to utilize some ofthe important conversations in
the community and one night, asI do in a lot of the podcasts
that we have, I come up withideas.
I came up with this op-ed and Isaid it's finally time to
properly vocalize my genuinefeelings about corporate America
(02:15):
pulling back on its diversity,equity and inclusion practices.
We all worked so hard to get towhere we are in our communities
and while George Floyd was sopainful for our entire community
, it brought out the good andthe bad of people and humanity
(02:39):
the conversations of the Ku KluxKlan.
I'll never forget those imagesrunning through CNN, and it ran
in 2020.
At first you thought you werewatching something from 1959,
but no, it was 2020.
And then, on top of that, yousee images of people hurting
Asian adults in the middle ofSan Francisco and they're more
(03:03):
concerned about the aggressorrather than the Chinese grandma.
That's hurt.
Things like this are just sofrustrating.
But I figured it's time tofinally talk about it and I
finally mentioned it.
And I'm grateful for our boardchair, lynn Nguyen, who has
extensive experience working forKellogg and the Kellogg
Foundation, extensive experienceworking with the Lumina
(03:26):
Foundation and looking at equitywork and how it aligns with
nonprofits and companies andorganizations.
And he said it best we're in acritical intersection in our
community right now, whereracial equity and economic
development need to beintersected.
And not only do they need to beintersected, but by 2050, more
than 50% of our population isgoing to be a community of color
(03:47):
.
Right now here in New Mexico,we already see it.
Yeah, right About 50.
Minority, majority state, or, tosay it very, you know, in true,
we're a community of colorperiod and we can be leaders in
this front, and so that's whatreally came about as the
inspiration for the article thatcame out.
(04:09):
We're filming it today, january31.
You'll see, the article will beout have already been out 14
days from there, so it's bytoday, and while I receive the
compliments that are there, Iactually don't want compliments.
I really want action out ofthis.
I really want people to step upand say, look, I really need to
audit what does equity looklike?
(04:32):
Don't hire people just becauseof their color.
Like, hire them because they'retalented.
Don't pass up on them.
Really understand how theycould be valuable people in your
workplace.
So that is my soapbox.
I will probably stay on it forthe next 20 minutes.
Jace (04:47):
I was going to say you ain't going to get off of it,
are you?
And, to be fair, you've saidlike it's time to start talking.
You've been talking about thesethings for a long time.
You've just spoken on them inconferences, you've been in
panels it's not like you've beensilent and then all of a sudden
you wrote this op-ed.
This is an area that you'vebeen very vocal in and you're
finding more ways to expand thatout and to touch on it from
(05:09):
other components as well, and Ithink the economic one is one we
all should be paying attentionto, especially in New Mexico
where, let's be real, we coulduse some money.
We are not a state of abundancewhen it comes to affluence and
money and things like that.
And then you're talking aboutbeing a leader when we look at
the population, the populationgrowth, and that not just the
(05:31):
workforce, but the population isgoing to be colored or mixed,
or we're seeing blended familiesand all of these things Like
welcome to the world.
This is who we are now and it'sonly going to continue to grow,
and there are major economicimplications for that and it's
already happening.
It's not.
Should we do this?
Should we not do it?
(05:51):
It's already happening.
Do we as a state and as acommunity in New Mexico want to
profit off of it?
And I'm not talking about it inan evil way.
I'm talking about actuallytaking advantage of what's
already here, the reality that'salready in front of us, and
that equity component wherewe're giving equal access to
opportunities, giving equalaccess to the chance to bring an
(06:13):
income and things like that,and then guess where that income
goes?
Back into the city, back intothe communities.
To me, when people are trying toblock this and I get the scary
part, I get, and we might nothave some friends after this, I
don't know.
But there are people who havebenefited from exclusion, from
(06:35):
having a very small group at thetop, and I absolutely
understand those folks and thosethat have been wrapped in with
them, even though they don'tactually benefit from it, which
I've yet to understand why theywant to keep more for themselves
.
And we have this fictionalbelief that there's a limited
amount of everything and morefor others means less.
(06:58):
For me.
That's not true.
It doesn't make any sense.
Kristelle (07:03):
Cultural.
It's a cultural backing andbelonging.
Jace (07:06):
Yeah, absolutely, and so I do understand, and I can't have
compassion for those that arecomfortable with life as it is
and it has benefited them.
Of course they want to keep itthat way.
They're not evil people.
We all seek some kind ofhomeostasis where what we know
has already been safe andbeneficial.
(07:26):
The desire to change that isn'tgoing to necessarily be
forthcoming.
So I think we often can putpeople in this role of being
like monsters and that they'retrying to attack it, and that
exists too.
I think a lot of people justfeel safe and comfortable with
the way things have been, and toask for that to shift up when
they've been told it willnegatively impact them is a big
(07:49):
ask.
So making the case for how thisactually benefits everyone is
really important, and I thinkthat's what your op-ed did.
Kristelle (07:59):
I hope so.
The unfortunate part is that Ilearned when I was younger,
especially in high school.
I learned the termmicroaggressions and I didn't
quite understand what that meantuntil I was older and I found
myself really discovering whatdoes microaggressions actually
look like and what does thatactually mean to me, especially
(08:22):
as I become more socially awareof my feelings?
or understanding more of myfeelings and how they play a
part in my decision-makingleadership.
And when I say that is when Iwas younger, microaggressions
were things like I would get soupset when somebody would call
me oriental or saying I've nevermet anybody that's oriental
(08:45):
until I met you and I neverunderstood why I felt so
uncomfortable about it.
But I remember specificallywhen I was younger, and to no
one's fault except for theeditorial team at the time I
speak very highly about theAlbuquerque Journal.
But at the time and it wasn'tKaren's fault, karen Moses, the
(09:06):
editor-in-chief at the time itwasn't her fault because she was
realizing what her team had didunintentionally, and that was
they ran a headline when Japanand the United States and the
Women's World Cup had playedagainst each other.
The headline was the US is onthe Oriental Express and I could
never understand why I was soangry with that.
Jace (09:30):
I was like was this the 70s?
Kristelle (09:33):
Yeah, this was 2010 when they ran this and it was an
accident.
And then I spoke up I said Ijust want to let you know I
slept on it.
That's not the right way to saythis, especially for the API
and H community.
Fast forward during the Asianhate situation, where people
(09:54):
were being killed for being intheir businesses, for being in
the massage businesses 20 on agood note.
The journal calls me back,calls me randomly and was like
how do we get this articleinterpreted in Cantonese and
Mandarin?
Because we want to make surethat the community understands
how to keep themselves safe andso we want to interpret this
(10:14):
article.
That's diversity and inclusionchange.
As journalists and publicrelations folks, we're actually
realizing what we're doing andwhat we're doing differently.
Here's another example of wherethe media is really learning how
to finally look, or the impactof corporations actually
implementing equity work.
There was a time, during thosesame murders, where a journalist
(10:38):
and I won't say who, I won'tsay what station, but the
journalist behind the scenes hadasked the question to the APD
chief.
She asked is it quite possiblethat these murders were a result
because of prostitution?
Since this is so common in thecommunity, I paraphrase it but
she made the assumption thatbecause there was an Asian
(11:00):
people which the chief disclosed, it was automatically
prostitution.
Prostitution was the is theright way.
So equity work Actuallyreframes the thought that, you
know, prostitution is actuallysex workers and they're
disadvantaged and, oh, by theway, they're victims.
That's equity work.
And then, on top of that,making the assumption that all
(11:21):
Asian businesses are Asianmassage businesses, are results
or Byway of prostitution isactually incredibly dangerous.
There are people that that istheir ticket to America for on a
workers visa, because the skillset of health and wellness and
healing is their common trait,just like nursing, just like
(11:42):
teaching.
Right, and so it was.
And so here's what.
Here's the part that really mademe limit.
So my colleague who sent that tome because she was there at the
press conference, was likescreaming at her for fucking
good reason, hmm, defending therace.
But the other part of it wasthe chief defended it really
well, I was like that'ssomebody's daughter that you're
(12:04):
talking about, hmm.
And then he, and then I spoketo or son, or son, or person, or
person, and I went to thegeneral manager.
I said look, I don't think whatdecision you made, or your news
were made, was the rightdecision.
Can you look at this and say,did she make the right call
asking the question?
And he said I looked at it andour news director, who is
(12:27):
apparently related to a veryfamous civil rights Attorney,
and I asked the reporter and wefelt like it was a warranted.
It was a warranted question andI said that's really
disheartening to hear and Ithink we're gonna have to agree
to disagree, hmm, because youget, you put the Asian community
at risk again, on top of what'salready happening, by asking
the question.
(12:48):
Yeah, that's not equity work.
Jace (12:50):
Okay, but here is my question back to that, because,
from a journalist standpoint,they're trying to get
information from all differentangles, right?
That's fair, mm-hmm, that's thegoal, right?
And it is true that there areSome establishments, yeah, that
do.
Kristelle (13:05):
Yeah, so human trafficking is a huge problem in
the Asian community, without adoubt and the outside view of
that is these particularservices at certain
establishments.
Jace (13:16):
So to avoid that entirely also seems wrong.
Kristelle (13:21):
I don't think, yes, correct, because what they also
found afterwards was there areseveral human trafficking cases.
I've seen it on the DC level.
Yeah, from an equityperspective, how would you talk
about this in a way where it'smore Inclusive rather than
exclusive to a community?
And in spotlighting them in anegative light?
I would say, if this massagebusiness was black owned or
(13:42):
white owned, the question wouldbecome is there illegal activity
going on in this business?
Mm-hmm, and it could be amultitude of anything.
It could be drugs, it could berobberies, it could be
embezzlement, it could be anytype of illegal activity, for
sure.
And and yeah, human traffickingis obviously illegal.
So asking the question like,was there any legal activity,
was there anything that couldhave caused a Springboard effect
(14:06):
, that like one illegal activitythat led to this hateful crime,
it could have been asked.
Okay, and also, too, I think thechief had a really good point
where he's like I would haveaddressed it if it, if it, if it
was actually a situation, butit was too early to tell.
And oh, by the way, that'ssomebody's daughter that you're
talking about, or family memberyou're talking about.
So the situation was reallyawful.
(14:28):
But that's an example oflooking at it from a different
lens and a lot of people getreally upset by saying why do we
have to go through the effortof going through this?
There's no financial benefit,et cetera, et cetera, and I
never thought I would say thisat 37.
Now it's starting to finallyget really exhausting.
Jace (14:46):
It is.
Yeah, it really is.
So, assuming that not everyoneis on the same page with what
DEI and B stands for, what ESGis, give us a quick breakdown.
What does ESG mean?
Environmental, societalgovernance.
But it's also become someonereferred to it as a four-letter
(15:07):
word with three letters.
Esg and DEI is the same way.
We're seeing those removed offof websites.
People are stepping away fromthem.
They have been, and acronymscan do this sometimes, right,
because then it becomes scary ohit's ESG, oh this company.
They do the ESG.
Kristelle (15:23):
Like what is that?
Jace (15:25):
What does that mean?
Well, it means they have actualpolicies laid out for how the
company impacts the world aroundit, for how it commits to
showing up for society, and howit does that internally and
externally.
Why is that scary?
That a company is exploring theimpact that it has on the world
(15:46):
and then making consciouschoice around how it wants to do
that, both in its own walls andoutside?
Kristelle (15:51):
I think this is a really good question that I
would actually go back to what'sin the beautiful brain of Jace
Downey.
How do people feel about change?
Jace (16:00):
Super scared.
The brain hates it.
They don't like it.
Kristelle (16:04):
That's really what it is.
Let's talk about our queen LTfor a hot minute, latricia Woods
.
We sat on a panel with her,with O'Dwyer's PR, and she
talked about what is thedefinition of allyship.
And, my god, the both of uswere just blown away with her
answer and it falls back verymuch.
(16:24):
It falls back into the questionof why are people so scared of
this acronym?
Or why are people so scaredabout this?
It's not even in a trend, it'sa way of life.
Why are people so afraid ofthis way of life?
And it goes back to what LTsaid.
She said y'all can't be a fairweather ally, right?
(16:45):
What were some of the thingsthat you took away from when she
said that?
Because being a fair weatherally, being a fake ally, like
living the truth of it and notbacking down from it that's
allyship, right?
What did you take away fromwhat she said?
Jace (16:57):
I kind of compared it to what I'm doing in my dating life
right now, where the rule is ohthere.
That's it ready.
Step up or step out is the rulewhen the kind of I'm not sure
and the half in, half out no,thank you, stand by what you say
(17:17):
, stand by what you mean, orpause down until you are ready
to do that.
I think the issue comes in withregard to allyship, with regard
to companies or individuals.
We don't know how.
Like the whole, you can't be afair weather ally.
So what exactly are you askingme to put on the line?
(17:37):
How, when?
What's the backup?
I know they're talking about.
They shared some examples ofpeople saying like, hey, I am
with you, but I will lose my job, and it's like then, what?
Ok, now I've lost my job.
I said I did the right thing.
Now I've lost my job.
Now who's got my back?
(17:57):
Nobody or somebody I don't know.
So we're hearing a lot of thesethings, but I don't hear a lot
of very specific hows.
How do I step up and when do Ineed to step out, and when is my
voice OK to use when I'm not inthat group where I don't think
(18:19):
that the onus should be on thoseon the margins to be stepping
up and doing this shit?
I think the majority needs tobe doing that?
Well, what's mine to do andwhat's ours to do as a company?
And how do other companies doit when their employees are
being threatened?
Their lives are beingthreatened.
Kristelle (18:34):
So you take the target situation right.
Jace (18:36):
And there have been many others.
So I think when people areafraid of change, it's because
there's no bridge.
Ok, you want us to come hereand we're here.
What's the?
Kristelle (18:45):
bridge.
Jace (18:45):
Yeah, very good point, but there's like alligator filled
waters under there or a bigblack hole.
I don't know what's at thebottom of that.
Is there a glass bridge that'sgoing to be there when I take
that first step?
I think we're missing a lot ofreally specific hows when we're
talking about this forindividuals and companies.
Kristelle (19:02):
So it's a good question.
I like the metaphor of thebridge because think about Selma
.
Jace (19:07):
Selma was the bridge right .
That was a very dangerousbridge, though.
So, that might not, so is thatthe bridge?
Kristelle (19:15):
They still did it, of course.
Yeah, they still did it andthey marched and look at the
symbolism of that bridgenowadays, right?
So going back to the how it wasfunny.
I was actually talking to agroup yesterday about community
ambassadors, a group ofcommunity ambassadors and how
(19:36):
they're serving their variousdifferent communities, which is
the organization's version of agood, solid equity plan,
diversity equity plan.
They go to faith-basedorganizations, they go to black
groups, black people, blackorganizations, black
neighborhoods, asianneighborhoods, asian groups.
So it's Asian, native, hispanic, black and faith.
(20:01):
There was a question of how aswell.
How do we do this?
How do we do this proactively?
And then what happens when acrisis happens?
And we have to do thisreactively?
And I gave them the four-stepRPIE plan.
Sure enough, the person who'sleading the strategic planning
retreat had a goal, strategiesand tactics exercise for them,
(20:26):
ready to go over.
How do you bridge these gapsbetween the community?
But when I was talking to themand I'm going to pull up that
particular presentation very,very quickly when I was talking
to them, one of the things thatreally resonated with me to
mention was the fact that theysay that they made a lot of
(20:48):
moves and changes, but fromtheir lens.
They saw victims from aphysical victim perspective.
But I had to define exactlywhat a victim is, and I promise
I'm going to get back to the howhere in a minute.
But here's one thing we allhave to ask ourselves the
minority and the majority whatis the definition of a victim?
And from the crisiscommunications I was working on,
(21:11):
a victim is, or victim hood is,a self designated state, self
sustaining and highly emotional,self terminating victim hood is
suffering alone and victimsbecome intellectually deaf.
So it goes back to the how.
We are in a society where peopleare receiving the house.
(21:35):
Are they truly listening?
That's a very big question toask.
When a victim is so angry andthey can't communicate their
anger, how can they evencommunicate a how?
And it's not enough.
To what you're saying, it'stotally true.
How are we not bridging that?
(21:58):
But we have to look at thepsychological aspect or the
communications aspect of this.
We can point and talk and yelland scream, but if nobody is
listening, what are we doingthis all for?
But the question also becomesshould we even give up in the
first place?
No, so I thought that wasreally fascinating when you said
(22:18):
the how, because everybody inthe room thought they knew the
how.
But when I told them, hey,let's go back and let's look at
the research like research, yourcommunity.
Who are your five people thatyou would talk to in your
community that you trust?
What is the profile of thecommunity?
What do they look like?
What's the nuances that youhave?
And, rather than providingaggressive or non-aggressive
(22:41):
solutions, let's look at themfrom a perspective of what are
the things you have to thinkabout before you even put the
how together.
Jace (22:51):
You've used the word community many, many, many times
.
Do you know that that is atrigger word for a lot of people
and it is now perceived as anegative connotation with the
word community?
Kristelle (23:03):
In what way.
Jace (23:04):
I've heard multiple oh, I don't use that word, oh, I don't
like that word.
Community, yeah, which bringsanother point.
With the listening and orcoming from a place of now.
There are a lot of differentrules, words that are okay to
use and that are not okay to use.
Some groups it's okay, someit's not.
And, of course, it's like we'llask the person individually,
yes, one on one.
(23:26):
If we were talking and we comeup with this both of us Is it
Crystal or is it Christelle?
Oh, yeah, right, and it's likeI could ask it and you could
tell me your preference.
People ask me is it Jace or isit Jase?
It's Jase, okay, great, nowwe're talking right, yeah, but
if a business is doing this orwe think about it from a
marketing standpoint, wherethey're wanting to do the right
(23:48):
thing, I think most people, whenthey come down to it, they want
to be kind, they want to showup well, they want that harmony
with those around them.
I honestly think that's true forthe majority, the vast majority
of people, and I think there'sa lot of avoidance and silence
because people are afraid ofdoing it wrong.
(24:10):
Yeah, 100%.
Kristelle (24:12):
And so in communication theory they say
that that's the silent majority.
The silent majority is a actualtheory that says that people
start to begin, people start tosilence themselves when they
can't demonstrate their feelings.
But the silent majority isstarting to become a major
(24:34):
seesaw.
This is Crystal's opinion, ofcourse.
The silent majority theory isstarting to become a major
seesaw, like a very volatileseesaw in our country right now.
Case in point we didn't realizethat racism was so loud until
that silent majority became theloud majority in the last
(24:57):
several years and that's when weall realized as well that
people of color had theirmicroaggressions over the years,
that they were finally done andat their tipping point of being
silent this whole time.
And so when you started to seeleaders, leadership, role models
(25:19):
, movements, you started to seepropaganda, false information,
true information, goodjournalism, whatever that might
be, you start to see these swingshifts of the seesaw or these
massive turns where the countryis starting to be at a point
where it's very unstable.
(25:40):
We started to see that reallyduring the era of George Bush
and Al Gore, with a 50-50 typeof election.
Now that's very common now, andbefore there was a time where
our country was very unified.
It's not now.
It's not because there is nosilent majority anymore.
Well, and I would argue there'smore ways to profit off of
(26:03):
highly emotional people 100%there are, for sure, but that's
definitely a conversation thatwe can have for another podcast.
I just want to say this I neverthought in my mind that I would
be a social justice warrior.
That's not what I want to be.
That's not what this podcast isabout.
I just hope that whoever'swatching today will look at this
(26:26):
and say success means reallylooking at the things that bring
diversity into your life.
I always embraced being thedifferent kid in the room and I
hope that somebody takessomething away from this podcast
, not just the cute hair andmakeup that we wear.
(26:49):
I really hope that they takeaway from this.
It's like we as a company havebeen really successful because
we put diversity in our corevalues and I hope somebody can
replicate that and be incrediblysuccessful on their own because
of it.
Jace (27:07):
Well and I'll throw that even from a biological
standpoint as humans, we're onlyalive because of diversity.
When we talk about success,diversity is absolutely needed.
One of the things when I'mworking with people for
self-mastery, I talk aboutdiversifying your time portfolio
.
If everything's, if all you dois work, it's not a happy life.
If all you do is play, it'sgoing to be hard to have a
(27:30):
successful life.
If it's not enough focus onfamily and so having that mix of
activities and energy spendresults in success, and we see
that with diversity in everyarea, Things only get better.
In a country that is obsessedwith more, more, more, I am
always shocked to find peoplefighting so fucking hard for
(27:51):
less.
Diversity means more,Everything for everyone
Inclusion.
We're bringing more in.
Why are we fighting so hard tohave less?
Kristelle (28:03):
That's a really great way to wrap up our episode.
It's a really great way to wrapup our episode, so thanks for
joining us.
On Story Success and Stuff.
We have a special guest thatwe're really, really excited
about.
You want to talk about herreally quickly.
Jace (28:15):
We are bringing in and if you've been following us for a
while, you'll remember a mentionof her from our episode on
mentors.
If you missed that, check thatout between this week and next,
because we are bringing on theincredible Wendy Irwin, my
mentor, now a very good friendand one of the most powerful
coaches I've ever encounteredwhen it comes to authentic
(28:38):
living and leadership.
She's like forget the box sofar out of the box.
The box is gone.
The box doesn't even existanymore.
That's awesome.
She's so fucking cool.
So I hope you all will join usnext week for Wendy Irwin.
Kristelle (28:51):
And I'll tell you it's an honor to meet her.
I'm really excited about thisepisode, but thanks for joining
us.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe to us
on YouTube or on your favoritepodcast channel.
Don't forget to follow us onyour favorite social media
channel or visit us at CRSAcom.
We're so grateful for you to behere.
This is Jace, I'm Crystal, andthanks again for another episode
on Stories and Success andStuff MUSIC.
What is the profile of the community?
What do they look like?
What's the nuances that youhave?
And, rather than providingaggressive or non-aggressive
solutions, let's look at themfrom a perspective of are they?
What are the things you have tothink about before you even put
the how together?
["dance of the Sugar PlumFairy"], Episode 30, 3-0.
(00:22):
I wish I was 30 again.
Jace (00:24):
I was just gonna say, just like our age.
Yeah, just kidding, I would notbe 30 again.
Kristelle (00:28):
I don't, uh, no, um.
However, we have a really,really passionate topic.
Probably anger, tears,excitement, laughs.
Jace (00:37):
Confusion.
Kristelle (00:38):
We'll come confusion Probably honestly, probably
might offend some people.
Jace (00:42):
Yeah, it's a sadly controversial topic right now.
Yeah, yeah.
Kristelle (00:47):
Yeah, Diversity, equity and inclusion.
I'm going to add belonging inthere.
And you added belonging.
I saw DE.
I think that's important DE Iand B.
Jace (00:56):
So the inspiration for this was I was really pissed, I
was really it's not to say whatelse is new, what else it's not
like a character trait of yours.
Kristelle (01:09):
Very much so.
If you ask my husband, I waslooking at Albuquerque Business
First.
Yep Very well respectedpublication.
Good journalism Talks aboutwhat are some of the issues in
corporate America and the localconnection and I was reading
these awful articles truthfularticles based off of data and
(01:31):
journalism fact that people arecutting back their diversity,
equity and inclusion programs.
They're also seeing thedownward trend financially from
diversity, equity and inclusionprograms.
They're also seeing largecorporations like Disney, like
today's announcement about howthe court in Florida actually
threw out Disney's case, thingsalong these lines and I said,
(01:54):
fuck it.
It's time to utilize some ofthe important conversations in
the community and one night, asI do in a lot of the podcasts
that we have, I come up withideas.
I came up with this op-ed and Isaid it's finally time to
properly vocalize my genuinefeelings about corporate America
(02:15):
pulling back on its diversity,equity and inclusion practices.
We all worked so hard to get towhere we are in our communities
and while George Floyd was sopainful for our entire community
, it brought out the good andthe bad of people and humanity
(02:39):
the conversations of the Ku KluxKlan.
I'll never forget those imagesrunning through CNN, and it ran
in 2020.
At first you thought you werewatching something from 1959,
but no, it was 2020.
And then, on top of that, yousee images of people hurting
Asian adults in the middle ofSan Francisco and they're more
(03:03):
concerned about the aggressorrather than the Chinese grandma.
That's hurt.
Things like this are just sofrustrating.
But I figured it's time tofinally talk about it and I
finally mentioned it.
And I'm grateful for our boardchair, lynn Nguyen, who has
extensive experience working forKellogg and the Kellogg
Foundation, extensive experienceworking with the Lumina
(03:26):
Foundation and looking at equitywork and how it aligns with
nonprofits and companies andorganizations.
And he said it best we're in acritical intersection in our
community right now, whereracial equity and economic
development need to beintersected.
And not only do they need to beintersected, but by 2050, more
than 50% of our population isgoing to be a community of color
(03:47):
.
Right now here in New Mexico,we already see it.
Yeah, right About 50.
Minority, majority state, or, tosay it very, you know, in true,
we're a community of colorperiod and we can be leaders in
this front, and so that's whatreally came about as the
inspiration for the article thatcame out.
(04:09):
We're filming it today, january31.
You'll see, the article will beout have already been out 14
days from there, so it's bytoday, and while I receive the
compliments that are there, Iactually don't want compliments.
I really want action out ofthis.
I really want people to step upand say, look, I really need to
audit what does equity looklike?
(04:32):
Don't hire people just becauseof their color.
Like, hire them because they'retalented.
Don't pass up on them.
Really understand how theycould be valuable people in your
workplace.
So that is my soapbox.
I will probably stay on it forthe next 20 minutes.
Jace (04:47):
I was going to say you ain't going to get off of it,
are you?
And, to be fair, you've saidlike it's time to start talking.
You've been talking about thesethings for a long time.
You've just spoken on them inconferences, you've been in
panels it's not like you've beensilent and then all of a sudden
you wrote this op-ed.
This is an area that you'vebeen very vocal in and you're
finding more ways to expand thatout and to touch on it from
(05:09):
other components as well, and Ithink the economic one is one we
all should be paying attentionto, especially in New Mexico
where, let's be real, we coulduse some money.
We are not a state of abundancewhen it comes to affluence and
money and things like that.
And then you're talking aboutbeing a leader when we look at
the population, the populationgrowth, and that not just the
(05:31):
workforce, but the population isgoing to be colored or mixed,
or we're seeing blended familiesand all of these things Like
welcome to the world.
This is who we are now and it'sonly going to continue to grow,
and there are major economicimplications for that and it's
already happening.
It's not.
Should we do this?
Should we not do it?
(05:51):
It's already happening.
Do we as a state and as acommunity in New Mexico want to
profit off of it?
And I'm not talking about it inan evil way.
I'm talking about actuallytaking advantage of what's
already here, the reality that'salready in front of us, and
that equity component wherewe're giving equal access to
opportunities, giving equalaccess to the chance to bring an
(06:13):
income and things like that,and then guess where that income
goes?
Back into the city, back intothe communities.
To me, when people are trying toblock this and I get the scary
part, I get, and we might nothave some friends after this, I
don't know.
But there are people who havebenefited from exclusion, from
(06:35):
having a very small group at thetop, and I absolutely
understand those folks and thosethat have been wrapped in with
them, even though they don'tactually benefit from it, which
I've yet to understand why theywant to keep more for themselves
.
And we have this fictionalbelief that there's a limited
amount of everything and morefor others means less.
(06:58):
For me.
That's not true.
It doesn't make any sense.
Kristelle (07:03):
Cultural.
It's a cultural backing andbelonging.
Jace (07:06):
Yeah, absolutely, and so I do understand, and I can't have
compassion for those that arecomfortable with life as it is
and it has benefited them.
Of course they want to keep itthat way.
They're not evil people.
We all seek some kind ofhomeostasis where what we know
has already been safe andbeneficial.
(07:26):
The desire to change that isn'tgoing to necessarily be
forthcoming.
So I think we often can putpeople in this role of being
like monsters and that they'retrying to attack it, and that
exists too.
I think a lot of people justfeel safe and comfortable with
the way things have been, and toask for that to shift up when
they've been told it willnegatively impact them is a big
(07:49):
ask.
So making the case for how thisactually benefits everyone is
really important, and I thinkthat's what your op-ed did.
Kristelle (07:59):
I hope so.
The unfortunate part is that Ilearned when I was younger,
especially in high school.
I learned the termmicroaggressions and I didn't
quite understand what that meantuntil I was older and I found
myself really discovering whatdoes microaggressions actually
look like and what does thatactually mean to me, especially
(08:22):
as I become more socially awareof my feelings?
or understanding more of myfeelings and how they play a
part in my decision-makingleadership.
And when I say that is when Iwas younger, microaggressions
were things like I would get soupset when somebody would call
me oriental or saying I've nevermet anybody that's oriental
(08:45):
until I met you and I neverunderstood why I felt so
uncomfortable about it.
But I remember specificallywhen I was younger, and to no
one's fault except for theeditorial team at the time I
speak very highly about theAlbuquerque Journal.
But at the time and it wasn'tKaren's fault, karen Moses, the
(09:06):
editor-in-chief at the time itwasn't her fault because she was
realizing what her team had didunintentionally, and that was
they ran a headline when Japanand the United States and the
Women's World Cup had playedagainst each other.
The headline was the US is onthe Oriental Express and I could
never understand why I was soangry with that.
Jace (09:30):
I was like was this the 70s?
Kristelle (09:33):
Yeah, this was 2010 when they ran this and it was an
accident.
And then I spoke up I said Ijust want to let you know I
slept on it.
That's not the right way to saythis, especially for the API
and H community.
Fast forward during the Asianhate situation, where people
(09:54):
were being killed for being intheir businesses, for being in
the massage businesses 20 on agood note.
The journal calls me back,calls me randomly and was like
how do we get this articleinterpreted in Cantonese and
Mandarin?
Because we want to make surethat the community understands
how to keep themselves safe andso we want to interpret this
(10:14):
article.
That's diversity and inclusionchange.
As journalists and publicrelations folks, we're actually
realizing what we're doing andwhat we're doing differently.
Here's another example of wherethe media is really learning how
to finally look, or the impactof corporations actually
implementing equity work.
There was a time, during thosesame murders, where a journalist
(10:38):
and I won't say who, I won'tsay what station, but the
journalist behind the scenes hadasked the question to the APD
chief.
She asked is it quite possiblethat these murders were a result
because of prostitution?
Since this is so common in thecommunity, I paraphrase it but
she made the assumption thatbecause there was an Asian
(11:00):
people which the chief disclosed, it was automatically
prostitution.
Prostitution was the is theright way.
So equity work Actuallyreframes the thought that, you
know, prostitution is actuallysex workers and they're
disadvantaged and, oh, by theway, they're victims.
That's equity work.
And then, on top of that,making the assumption that all
(11:21):
Asian businesses are Asianmassage businesses, are results
or Byway of prostitution isactually incredibly dangerous.
There are people that that istheir ticket to America for on a
workers visa, because the skillset of health and wellness and
healing is their common trait,just like nursing, just like
(11:42):
teaching.
Right, and so it was.
And so here's what.
Here's the part that really mademe limit.
So my colleague who sent that tome because she was there at the
press conference, was likescreaming at her for fucking
good reason, hmm, defending therace.
But the other part of it wasthe chief defended it really
well, I was like that'ssomebody's daughter that you're
(12:04):
talking about, hmm.
And then he, and then I spoketo or son, or son, or person, or
person, and I went to thegeneral manager.
I said look, I don't think whatdecision you made, or your news
were made, was the rightdecision.
Can you look at this and say,did she make the right call
asking the question?
And he said I looked at it andour news director, who is
(12:27):
apparently related to a veryfamous civil rights Attorney,
and I asked the reporter and wefelt like it was a warranted.
It was a warranted question andI said that's really
disheartening to hear and Ithink we're gonna have to agree
to disagree, hmm, because youget, you put the Asian community
at risk again, on top of what'salready happening, by asking
the question.
(12:48):
Yeah, that's not equity work.
Jace (12:50):
Okay, but here is my question back to that, because,
from a journalist standpoint,they're trying to get
information from all differentangles, right?
That's fair, mm-hmm, that's thegoal, right?
And it is true that there areSome establishments, yeah, that
do.
Kristelle (13:05):
Yeah, so human trafficking is a huge problem in
the Asian community, without adoubt and the outside view of
that is these particularservices at certain
establishments.
Jace (13:16):
So to avoid that entirely also seems wrong.
Kristelle (13:21):
I don't think, yes, correct, because what they also
found afterwards was there areseveral human trafficking cases.
I've seen it on the DC level.
Yeah, from an equityperspective, how would you talk
about this in a way where it'smore Inclusive rather than
exclusive to a community?
And in spotlighting them in anegative light?
I would say, if this massagebusiness was black owned or
(13:42):
white owned, the question wouldbecome is there illegal activity
going on in this business?
Mm-hmm, and it could be amultitude of anything.
It could be drugs, it could berobberies, it could be
embezzlement, it could be anytype of illegal activity, for
sure.
And and yeah, human traffickingis obviously illegal.
So asking the question like,was there any legal activity,
was there anything that couldhave caused a Springboard effect
(14:06):
, that like one illegal activitythat led to this hateful crime,
it could have been asked.
Okay, and also, too, I think thechief had a really good point
where he's like I would haveaddressed it if it, if it, if it
was actually a situation, butit was too early to tell.
And oh, by the way, that'ssomebody's daughter that you're
talking about, or family memberyou're talking about.
So the situation was reallyawful.
(14:28):
But that's an example oflooking at it from a different
lens and a lot of people getreally upset by saying why do we
have to go through the effortof going through this?
There's no financial benefit,et cetera, et cetera, and I
never thought I would say thisat 37.
Now it's starting to finallyget really exhausting.
Jace (14:46):
It is.
Yeah, it really is.
So, assuming that not everyoneis on the same page with what
DEI and B stands for, what ESGis, give us a quick breakdown.
What does ESG mean?
Environmental, societalgovernance.
But it's also become someonereferred to it as a four-letter
(15:07):
word with three letters.
Esg and DEI is the same way.
We're seeing those removed offof websites.
People are stepping away fromthem.
They have been, and acronymscan do this sometimes, right,
because then it becomes scary ohit's ESG, oh this company.
They do the ESG.
Kristelle (15:23):
Like what is that?
Jace (15:25):
What does that mean?
Well, it means they have actualpolicies laid out for how the
company impacts the world aroundit, for how it commits to
showing up for society, and howit does that internally and
externally.
Why is that scary?
That a company is exploring theimpact that it has on the world
(15:46):
and then making consciouschoice around how it wants to do
that, both in its own walls andoutside?
Kristelle (15:51):
I think this is a really good question that I
would actually go back to what'sin the beautiful brain of Jace
Downey.
How do people feel about change?
Jace (16:00):
Super scared.
The brain hates it.
They don't like it.
Kristelle (16:04):
That's really what it is.
Let's talk about our queen LTfor a hot minute, latricia Woods
.
We sat on a panel with her,with O'Dwyer's PR, and she
talked about what is thedefinition of allyship.
And, my god, the both of uswere just blown away with her
answer and it falls back verymuch.
(16:24):
It falls back into the questionof why are people so scared of
this acronym?
Or why are people so scaredabout this?
It's not even in a trend, it'sa way of life.
Why are people so afraid ofthis way of life?
And it goes back to what LTsaid.
She said y'all can't be a fairweather ally, right?
(16:45):
What were some of the thingsthat you took away from when she
said that?
Because being a fair weatherally, being a fake ally, like
living the truth of it and notbacking down from it that's
allyship, right?
What did you take away fromwhat she said?
Jace (16:57):
I kind of compared it to what I'm doing in my dating life
right now, where the rule is ohthere.
That's it ready.
Step up or step out is the rulewhen the kind of I'm not sure
and the half in, half out no,thank you, stand by what you say
(17:17):
, stand by what you mean, orpause down until you are ready
to do that.
I think the issue comes in withregard to allyship, with regard
to companies or individuals.
We don't know how.
Like the whole, you can't be afair weather ally.
So what exactly are you askingme to put on the line?
(17:37):
How, when?
What's the backup?
I know they're talking about.
They shared some examples ofpeople saying like, hey, I am
with you, but I will lose my job, and it's like then, what?
Ok, now I've lost my job.
I said I did the right thing.
Now I've lost my job.
Now who's got my back?
(17:57):
Nobody or somebody I don't know.
So we're hearing a lot of thesethings, but I don't hear a lot
of very specific hows.
How do I step up and when do Ineed to step out, and when is my
voice OK to use when I'm not inthat group where I don't think
(18:19):
that the onus should be on thoseon the margins to be stepping
up and doing this shit?
I think the majority needs tobe doing that?
Well, what's mine to do andwhat's ours to do as a company?
And how do other companies doit when their employees are
being threatened?
Their lives are beingthreatened.
Kristelle (18:34):
So you take the target situation right.
Jace (18:36):
And there have been many others.
So I think when people areafraid of change, it's because
there's no bridge.
Ok, you want us to come hereand we're here.
What's the?
Kristelle (18:45):
bridge.
Jace (18:45):
Yeah, very good point, but there's like alligator filled
waters under there or a bigblack hole.
I don't know what's at thebottom of that.
Is there a glass bridge that'sgoing to be there when I take
that first step?
I think we're missing a lot ofreally specific hows when we're
talking about this forindividuals and companies.
Kristelle (19:02):
So it's a good question.
I like the metaphor of thebridge because think about Selma
.
Jace (19:07):
Selma was the bridge right .
That was a very dangerousbridge, though.
So, that might not, so is thatthe bridge?
Kristelle (19:15):
They still did it, of course.
Yeah, they still did it andthey marched and look at the
symbolism of that bridgenowadays, right?
So going back to the how it wasfunny.
I was actually talking to agroup yesterday about community
ambassadors, a group ofcommunity ambassadors and how
(19:36):
they're serving their variousdifferent communities, which is
the organization's version of agood, solid equity plan,
diversity equity plan.
They go to faith-basedorganizations, they go to black
groups, black people, blackorganizations, black
neighborhoods, asianneighborhoods, asian groups.
So it's Asian, native, hispanic, black and faith.
(20:01):
There was a question of how aswell.
How do we do this?
How do we do this proactively?
And then what happens when acrisis happens?
And we have to do thisreactively?
And I gave them the four-stepRPIE plan.
Sure enough, the person who'sleading the strategic planning
retreat had a goal, strategiesand tactics exercise for them,
(20:26):
ready to go over.
How do you bridge these gapsbetween the community?
But when I was talking to themand I'm going to pull up that
particular presentation very,very quickly when I was talking
to them, one of the things thatreally resonated with me to
mention was the fact that theysay that they made a lot of
(20:48):
moves and changes, but fromtheir lens.
They saw victims from aphysical victim perspective.
But I had to define exactlywhat a victim is, and I promise
I'm going to get back to the howhere in a minute.
But here's one thing we allhave to ask ourselves the
minority and the majority whatis the definition of a victim?
And from the crisiscommunications I was working on,
(21:11):
a victim is, or victim hood is,a self designated state, self
sustaining and highly emotional,self terminating victim hood is
suffering alone and victimsbecome intellectually deaf.
So it goes back to the how.
We are in a society where peopleare receiving the house.
(21:35):
Are they truly listening?
That's a very big question toask.
When a victim is so angry andthey can't communicate their
anger, how can they evencommunicate a how?
And it's not enough.
To what you're saying, it'stotally true.
How are we not bridging that?
(21:58):
But we have to look at thepsychological aspect or the
communications aspect of this.
We can point and talk and yelland scream, but if nobody is
listening, what are we doingthis all for?
But the question also becomesshould we even give up in the
first place?
No, so I thought that wasreally fascinating when you said
(22:18):
the how, because everybody inthe room thought they knew the
how.
But when I told them, hey,let's go back and let's look at
the research like research, yourcommunity.
Who are your five people thatyou would talk to in your
community that you trust?
What is the profile of thecommunity?
What do they look like?
What's the nuances that youhave?
And, rather than providingaggressive or non-aggressive
(22:41):
solutions, let's look at themfrom a perspective of what are
the things you have to thinkabout before you even put the
how together.
Jace (22:51):
You've used the word community many, many, many times
.
Do you know that that is atrigger word for a lot of people
and it is now perceived as anegative connotation with the
word community?
Kristelle (23:03):
In what way.
Jace (23:04):
I've heard multiple oh, I don't use that word, oh, I don't
like that word.
Community, yeah, which bringsanother point.
With the listening and orcoming from a place of now.
There are a lot of differentrules, words that are okay to
use and that are not okay to use.
Some groups it's okay, someit's not.
And, of course, it's like we'llask the person individually,
yes, one on one.
(23:26):
If we were talking and we comeup with this both of us Is it
Crystal or is it Christelle?
Oh, yeah, right, and it's likeI could ask it and you could
tell me your preference.
People ask me is it Jace or isit Jase?
It's Jase, okay, great, nowwe're talking right, yeah, but
if a business is doing this orwe think about it from a
marketing standpoint, wherethey're wanting to do the right
(23:48):
thing, I think most people, whenthey come down to it, they want
to be kind, they want to showup well, they want that harmony
with those around them.
I honestly think that's true forthe majority, the vast majority
of people, and I think there'sa lot of avoidance and silence
because people are afraid ofdoing it wrong.
(24:10):
Yeah, 100%.
Kristelle (24:12):
And so in communication theory they say
that that's the silent majority.
The silent majority is a actualtheory that says that people
start to begin, people start tosilence themselves when they
can't demonstrate their feelings.
But the silent majority isstarting to become a major
(24:34):
seesaw.
This is Crystal's opinion, ofcourse.
The silent majority theory isstarting to become a major
seesaw, like a very volatileseesaw in our country right now.
Case in point we didn't realizethat racism was so loud until
that silent majority became theloud majority in the last
(24:57):
several years and that's when weall realized as well that
people of color had theirmicroaggressions over the years,
that they were finally done andat their tipping point of being
silent this whole time.
And so when you started to seeleaders, leadership, role models
(25:19):
, movements, you started to seepropaganda, false information,
true information, goodjournalism, whatever that might
be, you start to see these swingshifts of the seesaw or these
massive turns where the countryis starting to be at a point
where it's very unstable.
(25:40):
We started to see that reallyduring the era of George Bush
and Al Gore, with a 50-50 typeof election.
Now that's very common now, andbefore there was a time where
our country was very unified.
It's not now.
It's not because there is nosilent majority anymore.
Well, and I would argue there'smore ways to profit off of
(26:03):
highly emotional people 100%there are, for sure, but that's
definitely a conversation thatwe can have for another podcast.
I just want to say this I neverthought in my mind that I would
be a social justice warrior.
That's not what I want to be.
That's not what this podcast isabout.
I just hope that whoever'swatching today will look at this
(26:26):
and say success means reallylooking at the things that bring
diversity into your life.
I always embraced being thedifferent kid in the room and I
hope that somebody takessomething away from this podcast
, not just the cute hair andmakeup that we wear.
(26:49):
I really hope that they takeaway from this.
It's like we as a company havebeen really successful because
we put diversity in our corevalues and I hope somebody can
replicate that and be incrediblysuccessful on their own because
of it.
Jace (27:07):
Well and I'll throw that even from a biological
standpoint as humans, we're onlyalive because of diversity.
When we talk about success,diversity is absolutely needed.
One of the things when I'mworking with people for
self-mastery, I talk aboutdiversifying your time portfolio
.
If everything's, if all you dois work, it's not a happy life.
If all you do is play, it'sgoing to be hard to have a
(27:30):
successful life.
If it's not enough focus onfamily and so having that mix of
activities and energy spendresults in success, and we see
that with diversity in everyarea, Things only get better.
In a country that is obsessedwith more, more, more, I am
always shocked to find peoplefighting so fucking hard for
(27:51):
less.
Diversity means more,Everything for everyone
Inclusion.
We're bringing more in.
Why are we fighting so hard tohave less?
Kristelle (28:03):
That's a really great way to wrap up our episode.
It's a really great way to wrapup our episode, so thanks for
joining us.
On Story Success and Stuff.
We have a special guest thatwe're really, really excited
about.
You want to talk about herreally quickly.
Jace (28:15):
We are bringing in and if you've been following us for a
while, you'll remember a mentionof her from our episode on
mentors.
If you missed that, check thatout between this week and next,
because we are bringing on theincredible Wendy Irwin, my
mentor, now a very good friendand one of the most powerful
coaches I've ever encounteredwhen it comes to authentic
(28:38):
living and leadership.
She's like forget the box sofar out of the box.
The box is gone.
The box doesn't even existanymore.
That's awesome.
She's so fucking cool.
So I hope you all will join usnext week for Wendy Irwin.
Kristelle (28:51):
And I'll tell you it's an honor to meet her.
I'm really excited about thisepisode, but thanks for joining
us.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe to us
on YouTube or on your favoritepodcast channel.
Don't forget to follow us onyour favorite social media
channel or visit us at CRSAcom.
We're so grateful for you to behere.
This is Jace, I'm Crystal, andthanks again for another episode
on Stories and Success andStuff MUSIC.
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