January 7, 2025 • 36 mins
Provocative, gory, and oddly breathtaking are just a few ways to describe Mario Puzo's critically acclaimed crime novel, The Godfather. Intimate in his portrayal of family love, horrifying in the graphic description of violence and urban warfare... let's unpack the masterful way Puzo builds a world wrought with love that binds, loyalty that cripples, and conflict that kills to tell the story of a New York mafia family.
Moderated By: Laurel Thomas
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
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Episode Transcript
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Laurel Thomas (00:01):
This is Stories That Change Us where we analyze
best selling fiction so that wecan write best selling fiction.
And tonight we are going to talkabout The Godfather.
And just a little fun facts onThe Godfather.
IT became one of the mostsuccessful fiction books ever,
(00:23):
selling 21 million copiesworldwide, spawning three
critically and financiallysuccessful motion pictures and
placing its characters into thecontemporary American cultural
mythology.
Mario Puzo had no personalknowledge of organized crime
although through research andfamily connections, he gathered
(00:47):
the details that he needed forthis chronicle of the fictional
mafia family, the Corleone's.
And just a little fun fact realquickly this novel chart the
rise and fall of the mafia.
Although that name was neverused because a MA family, don
(01:07):
created the first ItalianAmerican Anti Defamation League
and would not permit him to usethe title mafia.
Interesting.
Yeah, so my name is LaurelThomas.
Micah Leydorf (01:23):
I'm Micah Leidorf.
Melissa Grace (01:24):
I'm Melissa Grace.
Kat Lewis (01:26):
And I'm Kat Lewis.
Laurel Thomas (01:27):
What we love to do in Stories That Change Us is
to talk about the aspects of thenovel.
that made it successful.
Many people read the novel.
It wasn't just the movies.
The novel was definitely abestseller.
So, we're going to just kind ofbreak down some of the craft
elements and some of just theways that when we read the
(01:50):
story, what is it that reallyimpacted us and why?
So, we're just going to open itup to whoever on what was your
favorite quote in The Godfather?
Micah Leydorf (02:06):
So this is Micah and I would say, you know, one
of the things that I think youis one of the reasons why The
Godfather is kind of retainedits perennial popularity is
because it's one of those moviesthat people do quote right?
The quotes are just like part ofour cultural conversation.
And so it's funny.
(02:26):
I've heard, you know, thevarious ones like, Oh,"make him
a deal he can't refuse" or, youknow, all these different little
mobster type phrases, but onethat I did not understand until
I read it this time.
This is my first time to readit.
I've seen the movies, but I'dnever, I didn't even realize
that it was based off of thebestselling novel.
Was that"revenge is a dish bestserved cold".
(02:47):
I was like, so that's what thatmeans.
So I never really quite got ituntil I heard that, but I'm
like, What does that mean?
And one thing I did read in ainterview, or I think it was the
prologue with Francis FordCoppola, the director of the
successful film franchise, um,was that he actually based the
(03:08):
character of The Godfather noton a man, but on his mother
Melissa Grace (03:13):
and his grandmother.
Micah Leydorf (03:14):
Oh, his grandmother.
His grandmother's a grandmother.
His grandmother, and thosephrases were straight from her.
He's like, she actually saidthose things.
He didn't come up with those.
And we know from our life aswriters, right.
The best.
Melissa Grace (03:25):
That's right.
Micah Leydorf (03:26):
The best quotes often come from the people
around us.
So watch out if you're aroundus.
Exactly.
Right.
Mm-hmm
Kat Lewis (03:32):
Grandma was mercenary
Micah Leydorf (03:35):
She was, she was ruthless.
That's the word.
But she's, you know, and again,like, just like The Godfather,
she could be very kind, veryloving.
Or she could be ruthless.
Laurel Thomas (03:43):
So it's interesting that, so it's taken
from the period 1940s, 1950swhen the mob families were not
just beginning, but were quiteentrenched already.
And I'm assuming that where theybegan was prohibition, but of
course the depression didn'thurt either.
(04:05):
But by the time we were in thatNever Neverland Michael Corleone
goes to, he serves in Europe.
So there's a lot of thatbackground historically and
there was a lot of corruption inthe court system.
And so when you read the openingof the novel, you read three
(04:27):
different instances.
Well, two out of three of themare because of an injustice in
the court system.
And, you know, Vito says, I'lltake care of it.
In fact, an interesting quotethat, right off the beginning of
the novel, Don Vito Corleone,"was a man to whom everyone came
(04:50):
for help and were neverdisappointed".
So the American dream, thequestion was historically that's
what brought the immigrantsover, but was it panning out for
them?
Mario Puzo's not making anyindictments on anything.
He's just telling a story, butit is interesting that you
(05:11):
wonder if, if that was trueduring that time.
Did the mob families actuallygive immigrants a place of
protection?
Kat Lewis (05:21):
That's interesting Laurel, because.
This is my first interactionwith The Godfather in any
capacity; never seen the movies,never read the books.
Some of the criticism around TheGodfather is this book was
released in the 1970s whenthere's this whole upheaval of
everybody was kind of indeconstructionist mode as far as
(05:44):
the system isn't working.
You know, let's burn our bras inthe streets.
I mean people were just readyfor massive, massive change.
And I kind of think that's theappeal of this novel because it
gives almost an alternativegovernment system.
Melissa Grace (05:59):
That's, that is what was so fascinating to me.
And I don't know, this isMelissa.
I don't know if this trulyreflects from what I've read
outside of the story.
There were gangsters that toldMario Puzo that he had their
life down cold.
But this was what wasfascinating to me was that he
(06:20):
did present them as seeingthemselves as just a legitimate
alternative government; not likethugs, but very organized, very
much a chain of command.
And I, my quote that I thoughtwas so interesting, is early in
(06:42):
the story and it's regarding oneof the injustices that the
mortician, his daughter is badlybeaten and he had not in the
past asked anything of TheGodfather
Micah Leydorf (06:58):
or associated with The Godfather,
Melissa Grace (07:00):
with him because he wanted to just be an
American.
And, he comes to Don Corleoneand says,"I asked you for
justice.
Don Corleone said, curtly, thecourt gave you justice.
Bonicero shook his head,stubbornly.
No, they gave the youth justice.
They did not give me justice".
(07:22):
Finally he persuaded TheGodfather to give him justice
because he on The Godfather'sterms and said, okay, I submit
myself to your system instead ofthe American system.
He had so wanted to be under theAmerican system and it didn't do
(07:43):
him justice.
Laurel Thomas (07:44):
It's interesting though, because the Don did not
frame it that way.
He framed it out of a sense ofloyalty.
So this section that to me wasproof that this was more than a
governmental structure is hegoes to the previous counselor,
(08:06):
named Genko, and he's on hisdeathbed, and the man says
basically, um,"Godfather,Godfather, save me from death.
My flesh is burning off my bonesand I can feel worms eating away
my brain.
Godfather, cure me.
You have the power.
(08:27):
Dry the tears of my poor wife.
In Corleone, we played togetheras children, and now will you
let me die when I fear hell formy sins?" So it was way more
than a governmental structure.
It was more I mean, cult like.
Yes, yes, definitely.
(08:49):
And basically the, you know, Donsays, I, you know, I can't do
that.
Resign yourself.
And, but basically, um, he says,"but if you stay with me, maybe
death will see you and maybedeath will be frightened away".
Because you're here.
Micah Leydorf (09:07):
Well, you know, it's interesting that you bring
this up, Laurel.
Because, I mean, so, to ourlisteners, there's no, I mean,
spoiler alert, like, once you'relistening, you might find out
some things you don't want tofind out, so.
So I just want to skip right tothe ending, actually.
When I was reading the prologuewith Francis Ford Coppola, he
was talking about a few thingsthat Mario Puzo objected to in
(09:31):
the screenwriting.
And he objected to 1, Michaelkilling his brother He said, you
know, he would never kill hisbrother.
And then the other thing was heobjected to Kay, Michael's wife
aborting their son and thentelling him that he did.
She's he would, she would neverdo that.
And I've seen the movie longago.
(09:52):
And Oh, it's interesting thatthose things, those are major
plot points don't happen in thebook, but I didn't know what
happened.
Instead.
Right.
And then reading along greatreads, so much tension.
those 650 pages just like flewby.
Right.
And then I got to the end of thebook, which it ends with,
(10:13):
instead of that scene of Kaythrowing a big temper tantrum
and leaving Michael and sayingthat she aborted their child
because she couldn't stand forhim to live in this world.
Then instead, converting toCatholicism and kneeling down
(10:33):
and taking the Eucharist andpraying for Michael's soul?
What a contrast, right?
Like, it couldn't be more of acontrast of this being the
climatic scene of the book.
Laurel Thomas (10:47):
Well, that's what I meant.
I mean, it's like a religion,right?
The devotion, obviously, thatthey have for Don Corleone.
So it's just interesting that itis so much more than a structure
because I don't know that astructure could hold the human
element, the universals ofneeding, needing a family,
(11:11):
needing power.
Kat Lewis (11:13):
Well, I was listening to several book reviewers
sharing their thoughts aboutthis novel.
And one of the things that oneof them said was that this is
the first modern example of ananti hero story done well.
We love the anti hero stories.
We love Iron Man and Deadpooland all those people, right?
Because it's very easy toforget.
(11:33):
In between cutting off horse'sheads and, you know, rape scenes
like there's such a, there'ssuch a humanity within the Dons,
right?
Within Don Corleone that you dokind of forget that he's the bad
guy.
Like you do kind of forget thatI shouldn't be rooting for them
to succeed or the police not tocatch them or whatever it is.
(11:54):
And that is what was eye openingto me was when I think.
mafia, I think of them as theoppressors, but that's not the
heart position that they can't,that they come from.
It, it was, it was veryintricate as far as like, it's
this blend of religion andfamily and government.
And it's this weird mesh
Micah Leydorf (12:13):
Well, that's the world that Mario Puzo paints of
the mafia.
Is that the world of the mafia?
This is a big question.
So it's funny that you mentionedthat Gone with the Wind came out
at the same time as this novel,because again, like Margaret
Mitchell, she presents a view ofthe South, which a lot of people
would say like, Oh, that's notreally the South.
Um, but it was, this was veryappealing in the same way.
(12:36):
Like, Oh, here's this veryappealing view of the mafia.
Laurel Thomas (12:39):
I would just throw it out.
That the most successful tyrantshave always operated like this.
Building family, buildingexclusivity, building the
protection, building the, youknow, you belong to us.
Micah Leydorf (12:53):
Gangs.
This is what gangs do.
Melissa Grace (12:55):
Yeah, an identity.
Laurel Thomas (12:57):
But actually every tyrant that has become a
cultural force has had all ofthe elements that we see.
Kat Lewis (13:07):
That's so interesting.
I know we were talking aboutHitler in a totally different
context before dinner, but, um,People are always surprised to
figure out how does one manbrainwash an entire nation,
right, to genocide, right?
And to support genocide.
And that's exactly what he did.
He mobilizes this idea ofexclusivity of and even like
(13:31):
loyalty to the system and likethe Don, Don is like, I am your
protector.
Melissa Grace (13:39):
Which is the key to this whole thing.
I feel like, because he is sothoroughly deceived into
thinking that he's a good guy,right?
I feel like he does though in areally pragmatic way, think,
okay, you can either putyourself under the authority of
the United States government andtake your risk there, or you can
(14:02):
come to me and I will love youin the way that he perceives
love, right?
I will protect you.
I will take care of you.
He thinks he's an honorable man.
I mean, it's almost like thedepth of his deception and
rebellion is that he's like,yeah, that system God has, maybe
(14:22):
I don't really work in that, butI'm, I'm a good guy.
Laurel Thomas (14:25):
Well, I think Hitler was totally convinced
that he was right.
Micah Leydorf (14:29):
So I think that there's a little bit of scary
connection.
I almost hesitate to bring itup, but you know, it's, it's
some of these things that we'retalking about is whenever the
common themes is where you feellike there's an enemy, right?
And you are powerless againstthat enemy without this other
person, the strong man's help.
(14:50):
And, and that's where we aretoday.
That's why we have likepolitically, that's where we
have this separation, you know,where you have, okay, people
have lost faith in the system.
That's where the Italians,that's what he was saying.
Like that system is not going tobe fair to you.
And so I think in today peoplethink, Oh, I can't trust anymore
Laurel Thomas (15:09):
in story form.
it makes for a successful storybecause it's so expansive.
It's so cultural.
It's taking us totally into aculture that may or may not
apply to what we know today, butit is, it is a culture that is
fascinating.
It actually shocks us.
(15:31):
You know, the fact that it, thatit is so powerful also, I think,
engages us.
But the fact that it's rooted inhistory, I think, is so
powerful.
And when we write novels,whether we're writing historical
fiction or not, to have a storystrongly rooted in a culture, so
(15:54):
that people can see theuniversals of that culture, It
adds a dimension to the novelthat takes it, I think, into an
epic quality.
Kat Lewis (16:04):
Well, and I think that, you know, as far as talk
about creating a character whois not just within culture, he
creates culture and his actionscreate culture.
And I think that's one ofprobably the strongest things
about any of the characters.
I mean, Michael, Don,.
(16:24):
It's like, this is a world oftheir making.
And so, I mean, that's one ofthe things that I took away was
specifically on and how to buildvillains.
Because if I am, let's say I'm aU.
S.
attorney in this story, let'sjust create like an alternate
storyline.
I'm a U.
S.
attorney within this mafiaworld, right?
A world that's spurring off ofthis literally one person,
(16:47):
right?
And so just to create charactersthat are so powerful, villain
characters that are so powerful,they create culture that our
protagonist then have tonavigate in and through and it's
like thick.
It's not weak and brittle.
It's like, no man, I can'timagine.
Melissa Grace (17:03):
And he just was so expertly woven that he is
just this horrible, horribleperson.
And at the very end, spoileragain, when he falls over dead,
I'm a little touched by itbecause, because he was, because
there was such humanity.
I mean, the Mario Puzo justwrote him, you know, it was 1 of
(17:26):
those things that being veryspecific makes you very
universal the way he wrote himso specifically in the moment of
his death.
Um,
Laurel Thomas (17:36):
Let's talk about visceral moments then, since
we're going in this direction.
Name a moment in the story thatstood out with visceral relief
and explain what storytellingtechniques help us to be a
successful scene.
There are lots of visceralscenes.
Micah Leydorf (17:54):
The whole thing.
So many iconic things.
I mean, the horse head, I mean,it's got to be like, you know,
again, just in.
In our, in our culture, it'sjust a burned into your brain.
Yes, exactly.
Like, who doesn't know thatabout having a horse head in
your brain?
Even if you are in your bed,even if you haven't even seen
the movie or read the book, likewhat that actually meant.
Laurel Thomas (18:18):
Well, and I don't know if it was, I can't remember
if it was in the novel, but heis at his sister, Connie, her
child's baptism.
So.
And while he's saying, I believein the name of the Father, Son,
and Holy Ghost, all five of thecrime mob leaders are being
(18:40):
assassinated.
Micah Leydorf (18:41):
That's in the movie.
That's not in the book.
Melissa Grace (18:42):
Well, but the timing is very close in the
book.
Like, I mean, yeah, that's agreat way to make the movie.
Right.
Micah Leydorf (18:50):
That's I've heard that before that like,
Catholicism is what Hollywoodloves religion to look like
because it's so dramatic.
And so it's like, Oh, we'regoing to use this this pomp and
circumstance and decorum andliturgy and all these things and
yes.
So this moment of this littleinnocent baby and, you know,
pledging loyalty at the sametime juxtaposed with that
(19:10):
violence.
So I think that the movie does agood job, you know, portraying
the essence and the heart of thebook.
Although, like I say, withthose, I felt like those two big
departures were, um, pretty big.
Kat Lewis (19:23):
I feel like this book feels like every moment's a
visceral moment because every isso emotional.
Like there is not a moment wherethe characters themselves are
not deeply invested.
It's almost like, the catch 22of being in this family system,
religion, cult, whatever youwant to call whatever the mafia
is, right.
(19:43):
Whatever, you know, my modernlanguage, a gang is.
It's like you, there's noremoving yourself from it.
Right.
You become so entrenched.
And so even like small moments.
And the justification forthings, you know, how do you
justify strangling somebody?
How do you justify cutting offhorses, a poor horse's head and
then putting it in somebody'sbed?
(20:04):
I mean, you're like, where islogic and justice, but like you
follow the story as the tensionbuilds because every moment
feels like a make or breakmoment.
Micah Leydorf (20:13):
Exactly.
Like, you read about like makingcoffee or opening up the windows
or something, I'm just like, Oh,what is going to happen?
Kat Lewis (20:20):
Oh my gosh, there's going to be a drive by.
I know.
I know.
It's like every, there, there istension.
Mm.
All the time.
Yeah.
All the time.
Melissa Grace (20:31):
Well, I think what you're saying about, um,
about not being able to get out.
I feel like I thought that K wassuch a fascinating character
because.
Of how she, I mean, she allowedherself to be trapped because
she fell in love with a versionof Michael, but, um.
(20:53):
I felt like that a reallyvisceral moment was when she
figures out what Michael's aboutat the very, kind of at the end
of the book.
Um, when, you know, after
Micah Leydorf (21:05):
she weeps in the kitchen,
Melissa Grace (21:05):
yes, yes, everybody can, but I, I loved
how he wrote it.
Where.
And I'll just.
I'd love to read it.
Don Michael Clemenza said it wasafter, the cleansing that
everybody was killed in revenge.
"Kay could see how Michael stoodto receive their homage.
He reminded her of statues inRome, statues of those Roman
(21:27):
emperors of antiquity who bydivine right held the power of
life and death over their fellowman.
And then it goes on to describelike exactly how he was standing
and.
His body was carelessly,arrogantly at ease.
They stood before him in thatmoment.
Kay knew that everything Conniehad accused Michael of was true.
(21:48):
She went back into the kitchenand wept".
I just love how personal he,again, just shrinking it down to
make it impactful.
She just knew her husband sowell that she could tell by his
body language, even what he wasfeeling.
Where he was, who he was.
And I just, I thought that wasso interesting.
Kat Lewis (22:10):
Yeah, I think, um, playing off of what you're
saying and what you mentioned,like, uh, about how the movie
did a huge deviance from thebook where the book ends with is
it Kay who
Melissa Grace (22:20):
Kay Yes.
Kat Lewis (22:21):
Falls, prostrate in this church and begins to pray
for their souls.
Versus in the movies, it's thisadmittance of an abortion to
kind of throw this back in thisman's face and I think about how
K is such a great foreshadowingof the failure of the system,
right?
Because if she thought that thisway of life, you know, produced
(22:42):
sane, stable people; the factthat she saw this as a
corruption and a pollution ofMichael, right?
The Michael that she knew andthe fact that she's like, you
know, the only thing that I haveto go back to is, this
established religious thing,right?
That was really, that was like avisceral moment for me because
everything about this structuredoes scream cult.
(23:05):
It does scream religion, youknow, talk about like this man
who's sitting here and saying, Ithink you've got the power to
scare off death.
Like what?
Like how?
Melissa Grace (23:16):
How does somebody get there?
Kat Lewis (23:17):
How does somebody get there?
And for Kay to be right in thecenter of all of it, right?
And to say, actually, I think Ineed, we need to just take this
back to basics.
Right.
And I don't know, that was like,that was a really interesting
moment for me of, you know, whatdoes it take for somebody to
come awake?
Right.
And to just admit that This isnot what I thought it was and
this is not going my way and forthat religious thing Right that
(23:40):
people have differentrelationships with religion and
all the things; but I do thinkat the end of the day It was a
very interesting portrayal ofthat was what she had to fall
back on.
Laurel Thomas (23:49):
So let's look at I mean the major craft element
is a negative character arc.
And it's not just Michael
Melissa Grace (23:57):
does anybody have a positive character arc?
I don't think anybody does
Kat Lewis (24:01):
Not in Book one Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe we get there later, butnot in book one.
I think the author does a reallyfantastic job of setting up a
series and
Melissa Grace (24:10):
he didn't mean to and I think that's interesting.
He didn't mean to Oh, he meantfor this to be, yeah.
He meant one and done.
He thought it was gonna be oneand done
Kat Lewis (24:17):
What's so interesting, let's talk about
negative character arcs, though.
You can't take everybody andthen not give us some kind, you
know, that's the American, Ithink that's the Western
mentality in us.
We want a smidge of a happyending.
We can't just be death,destruction, devastation.
Micah Leydorf (24:32):
But I think it was a happy ending.
I mean, that's why I was like,Oh, like it wasn't, you know, K
leaves him and throws it all inhis face.
And then you have to have theseother sequels.
It was, She joins the church.
She starts to go to mass everyday with his mother and pray for
him.
Like she accepted.
She joined, like they were goingto live happily ever after,
(24:54):
essentially.
Laurel Thomas (24:55):
Or I mean, it seems like the whole book is
about power.
So who's going to get what done,right?
And isn't that the force ofcharacter arc which power is
going to prove most.
transformative.
And for Michael, you know, hedoes not start for his dad's
(25:18):
business.
Right.
He doesn't start that way.
Kat Lewis (25:20):
He's the prodigal son of the family.
Laurel Thomas (25:22):
And I think the interesting thing is to see that
pattern, to see that pattern ofseduction, and of course we see
it in Kay to a certain extent.
Although Michael he does tellher some true stories at the
wedding.
And she's gradually puttingthings together.
But anyway, I, I just think thewhole issue of power.
(25:43):
And so when she is joining thechurch, I'm like, she's like,
Hey, there's got to be somethingbigger.
It has to be right.
Melissa Grace (25:52):
I felt like her joining the church and following
his mother's example of,basically recreating the pattern
of the Don and his wife, the Donand his wife.
I didn't see it as any, anyredemption in it at all.
I just saw it as really sadbecause it's just perpetuating
(26:15):
that pattern of, I'm going tostay with a man who is so
horrible and vicious andbasically stick my head in the
sand.
Kat Lewis (26:26):
Let's talk about though, how loyalty traps
people, right?
Because
Laurel Thomas (26:31):
false loyalty.
Kat Lewis (26:33):
Well, no, I think that there's a lot of, you know,
there's, it gets a little dicey,but you know, there's deep love
for these people, right?
I mean, deep love.
And they're raised culturallywithin Italian Sicilian culture
and within this mafia culture.
They're like, That, that bloodis everything.
(26:53):
And so I, I agree with you.
I think it's interesting to seethe foreshadowing of her falling
in line of this recreation ofthis Don and his wife, but I
don't think it's because thatwoman is trapped.
I think that she's trapped withher love for him.
Right.
Melissa Grace (27:07):
If you're a believer, which I know you are,
Melissa, you got to think oflike we sometimes have this kind
of savior mentality, right?
Again, because in the West andwe think that we can control
things and we think that we canchange things.
And I think that people in otherparts of the world don't have
that quite that same ideabecause they realize the
(27:28):
hopelessness of that.
Like say you're a Russianpeasant or something, or say
you're, you know, like yourecognize, I can't change the
world.
All I can do is, is my ownheart.
And so I feel like that's what Ifeel like she's doing.
It's like, I can't change theworld.
This power structure.
I can't change the mafia.
I can't even change my ownhusband, but you know what I can
do?
I can pray for his soul.
(27:49):
I can just do what I can do.
Laurel Thomas (27:51):
It's so codependent.
Melissa Grace (27:53):
I mean, to me, I mean, wouldn't you, wouldn't you
love it if someday people arelike, Oh no, I got this from
Laurel's book.
I mean, I just think that's, Imean, to me, that's exactly
what.
I would love as an author is forpeople to be like, for my
characters to be so complex thatthey can be interpreted in.
Laurel Thomas (28:14):
Yes.
Micah Leydorf (28:14):
So one of our questions that we always ask is
like, what is it that thisauthor does so well?
And I don't even know.
It's like, is it the tension?
Is it the character development?
Is it the dialogue?
Kat Lewis (28:26):
I, all of it, so many conversations happen at a table,
right?
Like in a cigar room, listen,you could cut it with a knife.
I'm like, I have never been moreinvolved in a pizzeria
conversation in my life to me.
Melissa Grace (28:44):
I, okay.
I took this as such a huge,because I have a tendency toward
flowery and toward, you know,all this.
And I mean, he just said it andit was refreshing and it was
okay.
He just, it was just a fabulousstory.
There was head hopping and forpeople who don't know writer
(29:05):
lingo that okay.
Every scene is supposed to be inone.
Perspective one point of viewcharacter.
He was all over the place.
I mean we were in this guy'shead then we were in this guy's
head and We were yes,
Micah Leydorf (29:21):
and it was great
Melissa Grace (29:25):
And also I don't know about you guys and I was
very controversial right nowprobably but I felt like the
whole Johnny Fontaine storylinewas superfluous.
Like an editor today would cutthat whole story.
Kat Lewis (29:39):
No, and honestly though,
Melissa Grace (29:40):
but it all worked.
It still was fabulous becausestory trumps everything.
Kat Lewis (29:45):
Absolutely.
Laurel Thomas (29:46):
And he was an entrance into a world that the
mob wanted to get into.
Which were the casinos.
Melissa Grace (29:53):
I just don't think it was strong.
I just didn't think it was.
Kat Lewis (29:56):
That's a common opinion that the whole Johnny
Carino.
That's not his name.
Melissa Grace (30:05):
Or Frank Sinatra if you just really like
Kat Lewis (30:07):
that, that storyline could have totally been cut out
and the story would have missednothing, but I do think that
it's important to glimpse.
What the options other thandrugs were because that's the
whole so wait a second.
Micah Leydorf (30:19):
You would lose the horse's head without Johnny
Fontaine That was like, oh, youknow
Melissa Grace (30:24):
That was oh, they could have they could have found
another person to put the horses
Laurel Thomas (30:28):
He's a good view into the Don because the Don
loved him.
And he excused all kinds ofthings.
He treated him like a son.
Micah Leydorf (30:40):
So this is kind of interesting going back to
your original idea about thisbeing a structure, this being a
government and and then thinkingthere, right?
And we forget, I think, like howbloody Like war is right how
bloody.
So think about like theAmericans right like you had
these Americans who were likeThis is not fair.
(31:00):
These British people are nottreating us fairly.
You know what we need to do Weneed to go to war with them.
And it was not like all likejust a little soldiers, whatever
it was bloody and awful andbullets and maiming.
And you know, that was justifiedbecause we were fighting for the
right.
So I feel like these guys feel alot the same, like, Hey, we
tried the American way.
They do not treat us justly.
(31:21):
So I think, you know, kind ofplaying a little bit of devil's
advocate there.
You think, oh, they're sohorrible like, you know, that's
from our view.
Kat Lewis (31:31):
There's a scale.
Laurel Thomas (31:32):
This goes into the social truths question.
What truths about society or thehuman experience or explored,
confirmed, or challenged, and Iwould say.
that.
They are all of the above.
They're explored, confirmed, andchallenged.
Because, yeah, they do see thesystem as an honorable system,
(31:53):
and yet within that system, Iwould have to disagree with
Micah.
The brutality of that system setit apart to the extent that one
of his men said,"if you're herewhen death comes, you'll scare
him away".
So that's not your normal systemof government or politics or
(32:16):
anything.
It's a level of fear drivenculture shaping that
Kat Lewis (32:22):
Yeah, and I think that, Micah, again, you had
mentioned before that we seeIt's so easy to think, oh, that
was in the 70s and that's sodated.
And, no, this system and thestructure still exists in modern
day gangs.
I do think that there are inmafia.
Micah Leydorf (32:38):
There's still mafia.
Kat Lewis (32:39):
There's still mafia, but I don't know if in American
culture we feel that as much aswe feel gang presence.
Or as much as gang presence ismore talked about.
But also I think there's lots oforganizations that gather people
groups together and, and createthis kind of blind loyalist
mentality to where we forget tothink about the person on the
(32:59):
other side of our actions.
I think like that's a socialtruth for us as like a modern
audience of listen show up atany protests that you want but
be very cognizant and be veryaware that you're not just going
along with this blind devotionto the cause and you don't care
about, right?
Laurel Thomas (33:18):
The blind bitterness of"it's not fair,
therefore..."
Kat Lewis (33:23):
right?
I can justify X, Y, and Zbecause it is not fair.
And we just see this soviscerally portrayed in this
novel.
Melissa Grace (33:32):
That brings me to one of the other quotes, I
thought was so interesting wasat the very, very end where Tom
Hagen goes and we always callhim Tom Hagen.
I think that's hilarious becausehe's he doesn't have.
He's not Tom.
He's not Hagen.
He's Tom Hagen, but.
He goes to K.
And Kay after she leaves and Kaysays, so you're not going to
(33:55):
come after me with a bunch ofmachine guns.
And he's like, that is the mostridiculous thing I've ever
heard.
I mean, he just, he doesn't seethem as
Kat Lewis (34:05):
as barbaric.
Melissa Grace (34:05):
He does not see, he sees them as as a means to a
necessary end only as a means toa necessary end.
We're not bloodthirsty.
We make a calculated decisionto, to engage in this violence
to save more violence.
(34:25):
I mean, he, it just, It was so,it's, that was what was so
interesting to me and I love howyou bring in, Laurel, you bring
in the idea of the family, causeI think, I think I read
something that, that was thestory that Mario Puzo really
wanted to write, was that itcomes down to family.
Laurel Thomas (34:45):
Well, you can tell by our conversation, a
bestseller is the bestseller fora reason.
There are layers of interestingcharacters and conflict.
There's a global aspect andthere are controversial aspects.
And so as we just conclude ourdiscussion on The Godfather, you
know, what do you think?
(35:06):
Give us a little feedback.
Have you read the book?
Have you read, have you seen themovies?
Because they are different.
For me, it was kind of painful,but there's a lot of complexity
in that novel that wascommunicated well and on the
screen.
Micah Leydorf (35:23):
I just want to throw out before we conclude
that there is also a very Rrating on this book, just for
our listeners.
So they won't be like, wait,Laurel and Micah and Kat! Yes.
Didn't say anything about that.
So, so there's a lot of, notonly is there a lot of violence,
which should be evident, there'salso a lot of sex.
So just tell you, it's a very Rrated book as well as movie.
(35:46):
So yes,
Laurel Thomas (35:47):
we need to conclude on that.
Thank you so much for listening.
Join us again for Stories ThatChange Us.
This is Stories That Change Us where we analyze
best selling fiction so that wecan write best selling fiction.
And tonight we are going to talkabout The Godfather.
And just a little fun facts onThe Godfather.
IT became one of the mostsuccessful fiction books ever,
(00:23):
selling 21 million copiesworldwide, spawning three
critically and financiallysuccessful motion pictures and
placing its characters into thecontemporary American cultural
mythology.
Mario Puzo had no personalknowledge of organized crime
although through research andfamily connections, he gathered
(00:47):
the details that he needed forthis chronicle of the fictional
mafia family, the Corleone's.
And just a little fun fact realquickly this novel chart the
rise and fall of the mafia.
Although that name was neverused because a MA family, don
(01:07):
created the first ItalianAmerican Anti Defamation League
and would not permit him to usethe title mafia.
Interesting.
Yeah, so my name is LaurelThomas.
Micah Leydorf (01:23):
I'm Micah Leidorf.
Melissa Grace (01:24):
I'm Melissa Grace.
Kat Lewis (01:26):
And I'm Kat Lewis.
Laurel Thomas (01:27):
What we love to do in Stories That Change Us is
to talk about the aspects of thenovel.
that made it successful.
Many people read the novel.
It wasn't just the movies.
The novel was definitely abestseller.
So, we're going to just kind ofbreak down some of the craft
elements and some of just theways that when we read the
(01:50):
story, what is it that reallyimpacted us and why?
So, we're just going to open itup to whoever on what was your
favorite quote in The Godfather?
Micah Leydorf (02:06):
So this is Micah and I would say, you know, one
of the things that I think youis one of the reasons why The
Godfather is kind of retainedits perennial popularity is
because it's one of those moviesthat people do quote right?
The quotes are just like part ofour cultural conversation.
And so it's funny.
(02:26):
I've heard, you know, thevarious ones like, Oh,"make him
a deal he can't refuse" or, youknow, all these different little
mobster type phrases, but onethat I did not understand until
I read it this time.
This is my first time to readit.
I've seen the movies, but I'dnever, I didn't even realize
that it was based off of thebestselling novel.
Was that"revenge is a dish bestserved cold".
(02:47):
I was like, so that's what thatmeans.
So I never really quite got ituntil I heard that, but I'm
like, What does that mean?
And one thing I did read in ainterview, or I think it was the
prologue with Francis FordCoppola, the director of the
successful film franchise, um,was that he actually based the
(03:08):
character of The Godfather noton a man, but on his mother
Melissa Grace (03:13):
and his grandmother.
Micah Leydorf (03:14):
Oh, his grandmother.
His grandmother's a grandmother.
His grandmother, and thosephrases were straight from her.
He's like, she actually saidthose things.
He didn't come up with those.
And we know from our life aswriters, right.
The best.
Melissa Grace (03:25):
That's right.
Micah Leydorf (03:26):
The best quotes often come from the people
around us.
So watch out if you're aroundus.
Exactly.
Right.
Mm-hmm
Kat Lewis (03:32):
Grandma was mercenary
Micah Leydorf (03:35):
She was, she was ruthless.
That's the word.
But she's, you know, and again,like, just like The Godfather,
she could be very kind, veryloving.
Or she could be ruthless.
Laurel Thomas (03:43):
So it's interesting that, so it's taken
from the period 1940s, 1950swhen the mob families were not
just beginning, but were quiteentrenched already.
And I'm assuming that where theybegan was prohibition, but of
course the depression didn'thurt either.
(04:05):
But by the time we were in thatNever Neverland Michael Corleone
goes to, he serves in Europe.
So there's a lot of thatbackground historically and
there was a lot of corruption inthe court system.
And so when you read the openingof the novel, you read three
(04:27):
different instances.
Well, two out of three of themare because of an injustice in
the court system.
And, you know, Vito says, I'lltake care of it.
In fact, an interesting quotethat, right off the beginning of
the novel, Don Vito Corleone,"was a man to whom everyone came
(04:50):
for help and were neverdisappointed".
So the American dream, thequestion was historically that's
what brought the immigrantsover, but was it panning out for
them?
Mario Puzo's not making anyindictments on anything.
He's just telling a story, butit is interesting that you
(05:11):
wonder if, if that was trueduring that time.
Did the mob families actuallygive immigrants a place of
protection?
Kat Lewis (05:21):
That's interesting Laurel, because.
This is my first interactionwith The Godfather in any
capacity; never seen the movies,never read the books.
Some of the criticism around TheGodfather is this book was
released in the 1970s whenthere's this whole upheaval of
everybody was kind of indeconstructionist mode as far as
(05:44):
the system isn't working.
You know, let's burn our bras inthe streets.
I mean people were just readyfor massive, massive change.
And I kind of think that's theappeal of this novel because it
gives almost an alternativegovernment system.
Melissa Grace (05:59):
That's, that is what was so fascinating to me.
And I don't know, this isMelissa.
I don't know if this trulyreflects from what I've read
outside of the story.
There were gangsters that toldMario Puzo that he had their
life down cold.
But this was what wasfascinating to me was that he
(06:20):
did present them as seeingthemselves as just a legitimate
alternative government; not likethugs, but very organized, very
much a chain of command.
And I, my quote that I thoughtwas so interesting, is early in
(06:42):
the story and it's regarding oneof the injustices that the
mortician, his daughter is badlybeaten and he had not in the
past asked anything of TheGodfather
Micah Leydorf (06:58):
or associated with The Godfather,
Melissa Grace (07:00):
with him because he wanted to just be an
American.
And, he comes to Don Corleoneand says,"I asked you for
justice.
Don Corleone said, curtly, thecourt gave you justice.
Bonicero shook his head,stubbornly.
No, they gave the youth justice.
They did not give me justice".
(07:22):
Finally he persuaded TheGodfather to give him justice
because he on The Godfather'sterms and said, okay, I submit
myself to your system instead ofthe American system.
He had so wanted to be under theAmerican system and it didn't do
(07:43):
him justice.
Laurel Thomas (07:44):
It's interesting though, because the Don did not
frame it that way.
He framed it out of a sense ofloyalty.
So this section that to me wasproof that this was more than a
governmental structure is hegoes to the previous counselor,
(08:06):
named Genko, and he's on hisdeathbed, and the man says
basically, um,"Godfather,Godfather, save me from death.
My flesh is burning off my bonesand I can feel worms eating away
my brain.
Godfather, cure me.
You have the power.
(08:27):
Dry the tears of my poor wife.
In Corleone, we played togetheras children, and now will you
let me die when I fear hell formy sins?" So it was way more
than a governmental structure.
It was more I mean, cult like.
Yes, yes, definitely.
(08:49):
And basically the, you know, Donsays, I, you know, I can't do
that.
Resign yourself.
And, but basically, um, he says,"but if you stay with me, maybe
death will see you and maybedeath will be frightened away".
Because you're here.
Micah Leydorf (09:07):
Well, you know, it's interesting that you bring
this up, Laurel.
Because, I mean, so, to ourlisteners, there's no, I mean,
spoiler alert, like, once you'relistening, you might find out
some things you don't want tofind out, so.
So I just want to skip right tothe ending, actually.
When I was reading the prologuewith Francis Ford Coppola, he
was talking about a few thingsthat Mario Puzo objected to in
(09:31):
the screenwriting.
And he objected to 1, Michaelkilling his brother He said, you
know, he would never kill hisbrother.
And then the other thing was heobjected to Kay, Michael's wife
aborting their son and thentelling him that he did.
She's he would, she would neverdo that.
And I've seen the movie longago.
(09:52):
And Oh, it's interesting thatthose things, those are major
plot points don't happen in thebook, but I didn't know what
happened.
Instead.
Right.
And then reading along greatreads, so much tension.
those 650 pages just like flewby.
Right.
And then I got to the end of thebook, which it ends with,
(10:13):
instead of that scene of Kaythrowing a big temper tantrum
and leaving Michael and sayingthat she aborted their child
because she couldn't stand forhim to live in this world.
Then instead, converting toCatholicism and kneeling down
(10:33):
and taking the Eucharist andpraying for Michael's soul?
What a contrast, right?
Like, it couldn't be more of acontrast of this being the
climatic scene of the book.
Laurel Thomas (10:47):
Well, that's what I meant.
I mean, it's like a religion,right?
The devotion, obviously, thatthey have for Don Corleone.
So it's just interesting that itis so much more than a structure
because I don't know that astructure could hold the human
element, the universals ofneeding, needing a family,
(11:11):
needing power.
Kat Lewis (11:13):
Well, I was listening to several book reviewers
sharing their thoughts aboutthis novel.
And one of the things that oneof them said was that this is
the first modern example of ananti hero story done well.
We love the anti hero stories.
We love Iron Man and Deadpooland all those people, right?
Because it's very easy toforget.
(11:33):
In between cutting off horse'sheads and, you know, rape scenes
like there's such a, there'ssuch a humanity within the Dons,
right?
Within Don Corleone that you dokind of forget that he's the bad
guy.
Like you do kind of forget thatI shouldn't be rooting for them
to succeed or the police not tocatch them or whatever it is.
(11:54):
And that is what was eye openingto me was when I think.
mafia, I think of them as theoppressors, but that's not the
heart position that they can't,that they come from.
It, it was, it was veryintricate as far as like, it's
this blend of religion andfamily and government.
And it's this weird mesh
Micah Leydorf (12:13):
Well, that's the world that Mario Puzo paints of
the mafia.
Is that the world of the mafia?
This is a big question.
So it's funny that you mentionedthat Gone with the Wind came out
at the same time as this novel,because again, like Margaret
Mitchell, she presents a view ofthe South, which a lot of people
would say like, Oh, that's notreally the South.
Um, but it was, this was veryappealing in the same way.
(12:36):
Like, Oh, here's this veryappealing view of the mafia.
Laurel Thomas (12:39):
I would just throw it out.
That the most successful tyrantshave always operated like this.
Building family, buildingexclusivity, building the
protection, building the, youknow, you belong to us.
Micah Leydorf (12:53):
Gangs.
This is what gangs do.
Melissa Grace (12:55):
Yeah, an identity.
Laurel Thomas (12:57):
But actually every tyrant that has become a
cultural force has had all ofthe elements that we see.
Kat Lewis (13:07):
That's so interesting.
I know we were talking aboutHitler in a totally different
context before dinner, but, um,People are always surprised to
figure out how does one manbrainwash an entire nation,
right, to genocide, right?
And to support genocide.
And that's exactly what he did.
He mobilizes this idea ofexclusivity of and even like
(13:31):
loyalty to the system and likethe Don, Don is like, I am your
protector.
Melissa Grace (13:39):
Which is the key to this whole thing.
I feel like, because he is sothoroughly deceived into
thinking that he's a good guy,right?
I feel like he does though in areally pragmatic way, think,
okay, you can either putyourself under the authority of
the United States government andtake your risk there, or you can
(14:02):
come to me and I will love youin the way that he perceives
love, right?
I will protect you.
I will take care of you.
He thinks he's an honorable man.
I mean, it's almost like thedepth of his deception and
rebellion is that he's like,yeah, that system God has, maybe
(14:22):
I don't really work in that, butI'm, I'm a good guy.
Laurel Thomas (14:25):
Well, I think Hitler was totally convinced
that he was right.
Micah Leydorf (14:29):
So I think that there's a little bit of scary
connection.
I almost hesitate to bring itup, but you know, it's, it's
some of these things that we'retalking about is whenever the
common themes is where you feellike there's an enemy, right?
And you are powerless againstthat enemy without this other
person, the strong man's help.
(14:50):
And, and that's where we aretoday.
That's why we have likepolitically, that's where we
have this separation, you know,where you have, okay, people
have lost faith in the system.
That's where the Italians,that's what he was saying.
Like that system is not going tobe fair to you.
And so I think in today peoplethink, Oh, I can't trust anymore
Laurel Thomas (15:09):
in story form.
it makes for a successful storybecause it's so expansive.
It's so cultural.
It's taking us totally into aculture that may or may not
apply to what we know today, butit is, it is a culture that is
fascinating.
It actually shocks us.
(15:31):
You know, the fact that it, thatit is so powerful also, I think,
engages us.
But the fact that it's rooted inhistory, I think, is so
powerful.
And when we write novels,whether we're writing historical
fiction or not, to have a storystrongly rooted in a culture, so
(15:54):
that people can see theuniversals of that culture, It
adds a dimension to the novelthat takes it, I think, into an
epic quality.
Kat Lewis (16:04):
Well, and I think that, you know, as far as talk
about creating a character whois not just within culture, he
creates culture and his actionscreate culture.
And I think that's one ofprobably the strongest things
about any of the characters.
I mean, Michael, Don,.
(16:24):
It's like, this is a world oftheir making.
And so, I mean, that's one ofthe things that I took away was
specifically on and how to buildvillains.
Because if I am, let's say I'm aU.
S.
attorney in this story, let'sjust create like an alternate
storyline.
I'm a U.
S.
attorney within this mafiaworld, right?
A world that's spurring off ofthis literally one person,
(16:47):
right?
And so just to create charactersthat are so powerful, villain
characters that are so powerful,they create culture that our
protagonist then have tonavigate in and through and it's
like thick.
It's not weak and brittle.
It's like, no man, I can'timagine.
Melissa Grace (17:03):
And he just was so expertly woven that he is
just this horrible, horribleperson.
And at the very end, spoileragain, when he falls over dead,
I'm a little touched by itbecause, because he was, because
there was such humanity.
I mean, the Mario Puzo justwrote him, you know, it was 1 of
(17:26):
those things that being veryspecific makes you very
universal the way he wrote himso specifically in the moment of
his death.
Um,
Laurel Thomas (17:36):
Let's talk about visceral moments then, since
we're going in this direction.
Name a moment in the story thatstood out with visceral relief
and explain what storytellingtechniques help us to be a
successful scene.
There are lots of visceralscenes.
Micah Leydorf (17:54):
The whole thing.
So many iconic things.
I mean, the horse head, I mean,it's got to be like, you know,
again, just in.
In our, in our culture, it'sjust a burned into your brain.
Yes, exactly.
Like, who doesn't know thatabout having a horse head in
your brain?
Even if you are in your bed,even if you haven't even seen
the movie or read the book, likewhat that actually meant.
Laurel Thomas (18:18):
Well, and I don't know if it was, I can't remember
if it was in the novel, but heis at his sister, Connie, her
child's baptism.
So.
And while he's saying, I believein the name of the Father, Son,
and Holy Ghost, all five of thecrime mob leaders are being
(18:40):
assassinated.
Micah Leydorf (18:41):
That's in the movie.
That's not in the book.
Melissa Grace (18:42):
Well, but the timing is very close in the
book.
Like, I mean, yeah, that's agreat way to make the movie.
Right.
Micah Leydorf (18:50):
That's I've heard that before that like,
Catholicism is what Hollywoodloves religion to look like
because it's so dramatic.
And so it's like, Oh, we'regoing to use this this pomp and
circumstance and decorum andliturgy and all these things and
yes.
So this moment of this littleinnocent baby and, you know,
pledging loyalty at the sametime juxtaposed with that
(19:10):
violence.
So I think that the movie does agood job, you know, portraying
the essence and the heart of thebook.
Although, like I say, withthose, I felt like those two big
departures were, um, pretty big.
Kat Lewis (19:23):
I feel like this book feels like every moment's a
visceral moment because every isso emotional.
Like there is not a moment wherethe characters themselves are
not deeply invested.
It's almost like, the catch 22of being in this family system,
religion, cult, whatever youwant to call whatever the mafia
is, right.
(19:43):
Whatever, you know, my modernlanguage, a gang is.
It's like you, there's noremoving yourself from it.
Right.
You become so entrenched.
And so even like small moments.
And the justification forthings, you know, how do you
justify strangling somebody?
How do you justify cutting offhorses, a poor horse's head and
then putting it in somebody'sbed?
(20:04):
I mean, you're like, where islogic and justice, but like you
follow the story as the tensionbuilds because every moment
feels like a make or breakmoment.
Micah Leydorf (20:13):
Exactly.
Like, you read about like makingcoffee or opening up the windows
or something, I'm just like, Oh,what is going to happen?
Kat Lewis (20:20):
Oh my gosh, there's going to be a drive by.
I know.
I know.
It's like every, there, there istension.
Mm.
All the time.
Yeah.
All the time.
Melissa Grace (20:31):
Well, I think what you're saying about, um,
about not being able to get out.
I feel like I thought that K wassuch a fascinating character
because.
Of how she, I mean, she allowedherself to be trapped because
she fell in love with a versionof Michael, but, um.
(20:53):
I felt like that a reallyvisceral moment was when she
figures out what Michael's aboutat the very, kind of at the end
of the book.
Um, when, you know, after
Micah Leydorf (21:05):
she weeps in the kitchen,
Melissa Grace (21:05):
yes, yes, everybody can, but I, I loved
how he wrote it.
Where.
And I'll just.
I'd love to read it.
Don Michael Clemenza said it wasafter, the cleansing that
everybody was killed in revenge.
"Kay could see how Michael stoodto receive their homage.
He reminded her of statues inRome, statues of those Roman
(21:27):
emperors of antiquity who bydivine right held the power of
life and death over their fellowman.
And then it goes on to describelike exactly how he was standing
and.
His body was carelessly,arrogantly at ease.
They stood before him in thatmoment.
Kay knew that everything Conniehad accused Michael of was true.
(21:48):
She went back into the kitchenand wept".
I just love how personal he,again, just shrinking it down to
make it impactful.
She just knew her husband sowell that she could tell by his
body language, even what he wasfeeling.
Where he was, who he was.
And I just, I thought that wasso interesting.
Kat Lewis (22:10):
Yeah, I think, um, playing off of what you're
saying and what you mentioned,like, uh, about how the movie
did a huge deviance from thebook where the book ends with is
it Kay who
Melissa Grace (22:20):
Kay Yes.
Kat Lewis (22:21):
Falls, prostrate in this church and begins to pray
for their souls.
Versus in the movies, it's thisadmittance of an abortion to
kind of throw this back in thisman's face and I think about how
K is such a great foreshadowingof the failure of the system,
right?
Because if she thought that thisway of life, you know, produced
(22:42):
sane, stable people; the factthat she saw this as a
corruption and a pollution ofMichael, right?
The Michael that she knew andthe fact that she's like, you
know, the only thing that I haveto go back to is, this
established religious thing,right?
That was really, that was like avisceral moment for me because
everything about this structuredoes scream cult.
(23:05):
It does scream religion, youknow, talk about like this man
who's sitting here and saying, Ithink you've got the power to
scare off death.
Like what?
Like how?
Melissa Grace (23:16):
How does somebody get there?
Kat Lewis (23:17):
How does somebody get there?
And for Kay to be right in thecenter of all of it, right?
And to say, actually, I think Ineed, we need to just take this
back to basics.
Right.
And I don't know, that was like,that was a really interesting
moment for me of, you know, whatdoes it take for somebody to
come awake?
Right.
And to just admit that This isnot what I thought it was and
this is not going my way and forthat religious thing Right that
(23:40):
people have differentrelationships with religion and
all the things; but I do thinkat the end of the day It was a
very interesting portrayal ofthat was what she had to fall
back on.
Laurel Thomas (23:49):
So let's look at I mean the major craft element
is a negative character arc.
And it's not just Michael
Melissa Grace (23:57):
does anybody have a positive character arc?
I don't think anybody does
Kat Lewis (24:01):
Not in Book one Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe we get there later, butnot in book one.
I think the author does a reallyfantastic job of setting up a
series and
Melissa Grace (24:10):
he didn't mean to and I think that's interesting.
He didn't mean to Oh, he meantfor this to be, yeah.
He meant one and done.
He thought it was gonna be oneand done
Kat Lewis (24:17):
What's so interesting, let's talk about
negative character arcs, though.
You can't take everybody andthen not give us some kind, you
know, that's the American, Ithink that's the Western
mentality in us.
We want a smidge of a happyending.
We can't just be death,destruction, devastation.
Micah Leydorf (24:32):
But I think it was a happy ending.
I mean, that's why I was like,Oh, like it wasn't, you know, K
leaves him and throws it all inhis face.
And then you have to have theseother sequels.
It was, She joins the church.
She starts to go to mass everyday with his mother and pray for
him.
Like she accepted.
She joined, like they were goingto live happily ever after,
(24:54):
essentially.
Laurel Thomas (24:55):
Or I mean, it seems like the whole book is
about power.
So who's going to get what done,right?
And isn't that the force ofcharacter arc which power is
going to prove most.
transformative.
And for Michael, you know, hedoes not start for his dad's
(25:18):
business.
Right.
He doesn't start that way.
Kat Lewis (25:20):
He's the prodigal son of the family.
Laurel Thomas (25:22):
And I think the interesting thing is to see that
pattern, to see that pattern ofseduction, and of course we see
it in Kay to a certain extent.
Although Michael he does tellher some true stories at the
wedding.
And she's gradually puttingthings together.
But anyway, I, I just think thewhole issue of power.
(25:43):
And so when she is joining thechurch, I'm like, she's like,
Hey, there's got to be somethingbigger.
It has to be right.
Melissa Grace (25:52):
I felt like her joining the church and following
his mother's example of,basically recreating the pattern
of the Don and his wife, the Donand his wife.
I didn't see it as any, anyredemption in it at all.
I just saw it as really sadbecause it's just perpetuating
(26:15):
that pattern of, I'm going tostay with a man who is so
horrible and vicious andbasically stick my head in the
sand.
Kat Lewis (26:26):
Let's talk about though, how loyalty traps
people, right?
Because
Laurel Thomas (26:31):
false loyalty.
Kat Lewis (26:33):
Well, no, I think that there's a lot of, you know,
there's, it gets a little dicey,but you know, there's deep love
for these people, right?
I mean, deep love.
And they're raised culturallywithin Italian Sicilian culture
and within this mafia culture.
They're like, That, that bloodis everything.
(26:53):
And so I, I agree with you.
I think it's interesting to seethe foreshadowing of her falling
in line of this recreation ofthis Don and his wife, but I
don't think it's because thatwoman is trapped.
I think that she's trapped withher love for him.
Right.
Melissa Grace (27:07):
If you're a believer, which I know you are,
Melissa, you got to think oflike we sometimes have this kind
of savior mentality, right?
Again, because in the West andwe think that we can control
things and we think that we canchange things.
And I think that people in otherparts of the world don't have
that quite that same ideabecause they realize the
(27:28):
hopelessness of that.
Like say you're a Russianpeasant or something, or say
you're, you know, like yourecognize, I can't change the
world.
All I can do is, is my ownheart.
And so I feel like that's what Ifeel like she's doing.
It's like, I can't change theworld.
This power structure.
I can't change the mafia.
I can't even change my ownhusband, but you know what I can
do?
I can pray for his soul.
(27:49):
I can just do what I can do.
Laurel Thomas (27:51):
It's so codependent.
Melissa Grace (27:53):
I mean, to me, I mean, wouldn't you, wouldn't you
love it if someday people arelike, Oh no, I got this from
Laurel's book.
I mean, I just think that's, Imean, to me, that's exactly
what.
I would love as an author is forpeople to be like, for my
characters to be so complex thatthey can be interpreted in.
Laurel Thomas (28:14):
Yes.
Micah Leydorf (28:14):
So one of our questions that we always ask is
like, what is it that thisauthor does so well?
And I don't even know.
It's like, is it the tension?
Is it the character development?
Is it the dialogue?
Kat Lewis (28:26):
I, all of it, so many conversations happen at a table,
right?
Like in a cigar room, listen,you could cut it with a knife.
I'm like, I have never been moreinvolved in a pizzeria
conversation in my life to me.
Melissa Grace (28:44):
I, okay.
I took this as such a huge,because I have a tendency toward
flowery and toward, you know,all this.
And I mean, he just said it andit was refreshing and it was
okay.
He just, it was just a fabulousstory.
There was head hopping and forpeople who don't know writer
(29:05):
lingo that okay.
Every scene is supposed to be inone.
Perspective one point of viewcharacter.
He was all over the place.
I mean we were in this guy'shead then we were in this guy's
head and We were yes,
Micah Leydorf (29:21):
and it was great
Melissa Grace (29:25):
And also I don't know about you guys and I was
very controversial right nowprobably but I felt like the
whole Johnny Fontaine storylinewas superfluous.
Like an editor today would cutthat whole story.
Kat Lewis (29:39):
No, and honestly though,
Melissa Grace (29:40):
but it all worked.
It still was fabulous becausestory trumps everything.
Kat Lewis (29:45):
Absolutely.
Laurel Thomas (29:46):
And he was an entrance into a world that the
mob wanted to get into.
Which were the casinos.
Melissa Grace (29:53):
I just don't think it was strong.
I just didn't think it was.
Kat Lewis (29:56):
That's a common opinion that the whole Johnny
Carino.
That's not his name.
Melissa Grace (30:05):
Or Frank Sinatra if you just really like
Kat Lewis (30:07):
that, that storyline could have totally been cut out
and the story would have missednothing, but I do think that
it's important to glimpse.
What the options other thandrugs were because that's the
whole so wait a second.
Micah Leydorf (30:19):
You would lose the horse's head without Johnny
Fontaine That was like, oh, youknow
Melissa Grace (30:24):
That was oh, they could have they could have found
another person to put the horses
Laurel Thomas (30:28):
He's a good view into the Don because the Don
loved him.
And he excused all kinds ofthings.
He treated him like a son.
Micah Leydorf (30:40):
So this is kind of interesting going back to
your original idea about thisbeing a structure, this being a
government and and then thinkingthere, right?
And we forget, I think, like howbloody Like war is right how
bloody.
So think about like theAmericans right like you had
these Americans who were likeThis is not fair.
(31:00):
These British people are nottreating us fairly.
You know what we need to do Weneed to go to war with them.
And it was not like all likejust a little soldiers, whatever
it was bloody and awful andbullets and maiming.
And you know, that was justifiedbecause we were fighting for the
right.
So I feel like these guys feel alot the same, like, Hey, we
tried the American way.
They do not treat us justly.
(31:21):
So I think, you know, kind ofplaying a little bit of devil's
advocate there.
You think, oh, they're sohorrible like, you know, that's
from our view.
Kat Lewis (31:31):
There's a scale.
Laurel Thomas (31:32):
This goes into the social truths question.
What truths about society or thehuman experience or explored,
confirmed, or challenged, and Iwould say.
that.
They are all of the above.
They're explored, confirmed, andchallenged.
Because, yeah, they do see thesystem as an honorable system,
(31:53):
and yet within that system, Iwould have to disagree with
Micah.
The brutality of that system setit apart to the extent that one
of his men said,"if you're herewhen death comes, you'll scare
him away".
So that's not your normal systemof government or politics or
(32:16):
anything.
It's a level of fear drivenculture shaping that
Kat Lewis (32:22):
Yeah, and I think that, Micah, again, you had
mentioned before that we seeIt's so easy to think, oh, that
was in the 70s and that's sodated.
And, no, this system and thestructure still exists in modern
day gangs.
I do think that there are inmafia.
Micah Leydorf (32:38):
There's still mafia.
Kat Lewis (32:39):
There's still mafia, but I don't know if in American
culture we feel that as much aswe feel gang presence.
Or as much as gang presence ismore talked about.
But also I think there's lots oforganizations that gather people
groups together and, and createthis kind of blind loyalist
mentality to where we forget tothink about the person on the
(32:59):
other side of our actions.
I think like that's a socialtruth for us as like a modern
audience of listen show up atany protests that you want but
be very cognizant and be veryaware that you're not just going
along with this blind devotionto the cause and you don't care
about, right?
Laurel Thomas (33:18):
The blind bitterness of"it's not fair,
therefore..."
Kat Lewis (33:23):
right?
I can justify X, Y, and Zbecause it is not fair.
And we just see this soviscerally portrayed in this
novel.
Melissa Grace (33:32):
That brings me to one of the other quotes, I
thought was so interesting wasat the very, very end where Tom
Hagen goes and we always callhim Tom Hagen.
I think that's hilarious becausehe's he doesn't have.
He's not Tom.
He's not Hagen.
He's Tom Hagen, but.
He goes to K.
And Kay after she leaves and Kaysays, so you're not going to
(33:55):
come after me with a bunch ofmachine guns.
And he's like, that is the mostridiculous thing I've ever
heard.
I mean, he just, he doesn't seethem as
Kat Lewis (34:05):
as barbaric.
Melissa Grace (34:05):
He does not see, he sees them as as a means to a
necessary end only as a means toa necessary end.
We're not bloodthirsty.
We make a calculated decisionto, to engage in this violence
to save more violence.
(34:25):
I mean, he, it just, It was so,it's, that was what was so
interesting to me and I love howyou bring in, Laurel, you bring
in the idea of the family, causeI think, I think I read
something that, that was thestory that Mario Puzo really
wanted to write, was that itcomes down to family.
Laurel Thomas (34:45):
Well, you can tell by our conversation, a
bestseller is the bestseller fora reason.
There are layers of interestingcharacters and conflict.
There's a global aspect andthere are controversial aspects.
And so as we just conclude ourdiscussion on The Godfather, you
know, what do you think?
(35:06):
Give us a little feedback.
Have you read the book?
Have you read, have you seen themovies?
Because they are different.
For me, it was kind of painful,but there's a lot of complexity
in that novel that wascommunicated well and on the
screen.
Micah Leydorf (35:23):
I just want to throw out before we conclude
that there is also a very Rrating on this book, just for
our listeners.
So they won't be like, wait,Laurel and Micah and Kat! Yes.
Didn't say anything about that.
So, so there's a lot of, notonly is there a lot of violence,
which should be evident, there'salso a lot of sex.
So just tell you, it's a very Rrated book as well as movie.
(35:46):
So yes,
Laurel Thomas (35:47):
we need to conclude on that.
Thank you so much for listening.
Join us again for Stories ThatChange Us.
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