January 10, 2025 • 34 mins
Few YA novels manage to weave modern issues so flawlessly into a story that equally engages children and adults, but The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins stands out for that very reason. Collins masterful use of subtle subtext, world building that compels plot and tension, and a cast of lovable yet deeply troubled characters allows this Dystopian tale of youth gladiatorial games to transcend from grisly and irrelevant to contemplative and epic.
Moderated By: Kat Lewis
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Kat Lewis (00:02):
Welcome friends to the 11th episode of the Stories
That Change Us podcast, where weevaluate and analyze bestselling
fiction in the hopes that weourselves will be able to write
bestselling fiction.
My name is Kat Lewis, and I am aauthor who writes thrilling
women's fiction.
And I'm here with some of myfabulous author friends, and
(00:23):
we're just going to round tableand introduce ourselves.
Laurel Thomas (00:26):
Great.
I'm Laurel Thomas.
I write redemptive fantasy.
Micah Leydorf (00:30):
And this is Micah Leydorf.
Melissa Grace (00:33):
I'm Melissa Grace.
I write inspirational fictionfor the general market.
Kat Lewis (00:38):
Fabulous.
And we are in the middle of ourseries where we take fabulous
books that have equally fabulousmovie adaptations.
And our poison today, you guys,is the one, the only The Hunger
Games.
So for those of you who do notknow, The Hunger Games is a 2008
dystopian young adult novelwritten by American author
(01:01):
Suzanne Collins.
It is written from theperspective of 16 year old
Katniss Everdeen, who lives in afuture post apocalyptic nation
resembling North America.
And as a reminder of a failedrebellion, each District is
forced to submit a child betweenthe ages of 12 and 18 to fight
(01:23):
to the death in a event calledthe Hunger Games.
So, just a few facts.
By this point the Hunger Gameshas been around since 2008.
I believe that the first filmcame out in 2012.
So this should be a householdname.
Spoiler alert, you've had plentyof time, almost 10 years, you
(01:44):
guys, to get on the Hunger Gamestrain.
So between the three booktrilogy and the four movie
series, I would say that this isone of the most successful film
franchises of modern times.
Just a few facts for you.
For one the Hunger Games bookshave sold over a hundred million
(02:04):
copies.
That's crazy.
It was a 50, 000 copy first bookprint.
So for all the authors in theroom who are pursuing
traditional publishing, you knowhow stellar that is.
It's lucky, you're lucky to get10, 000 copy print, right?
Your first run.
So that's insane.
Within 18 months, the HungerGames sold over a hundred
thousand copies.
(02:25):
The book series collectively haswon over a hundred awards.
Movie stats for you guys.
It's the 14th highest grossingmovie in America of all time.
Micah Leydorf (02:37):
That is really remarkable.
Kat Lewis (02:38):
That is shocking.
Micah Leydorf (02:39):
That is.
Cause I mean, it's a YA, right?
It's a young adult novel.
Like we did the Godfather lasttime, which is, like huge, one
of the all time best.
But you don't usually put thosetwo in the same boat.
And yet that it's the 14thhighest of all time.
Kat Lewis (02:55):
That's a lot.
That's a lot.
That's a lot.
And they project that it madeover 700 million at the box
office.
Insane, insane.
And just interesting, you thinkabout how does an author come up
with this idea of gladiatorialgames for children, right?
Apparently this is her activesocial commentary about the wars
(03:16):
in Iraq.
Just interesting how she'sprocessing these things and this
is what she comes up with thisseries, the Hunger Games.
So let's just, let's just diveright on in.
So first question for us toconsider is"what is your
favorite quote of this novel?
What's a quote that stands outto you as an excellent example
of tension, author's voice, orcharacter development?"
Micah Leydorf (03:39):
So this is Micah, and I was going to just throw
out just a really well knownone.
But I think again, sometimes theability to create those quotes
that everyone can remember iswhen Katniss, says, I volunteer
as tribute.
And I think that makes her asympathetic character and a
likable character.
(04:00):
Sacrifice for another person.
So we can overlook a lot of herflaws and as authors, we talk
about a lot of times the savethe cat moment where the person
does the thing that they savethe cat.
It's like, Oh, okay.
This is a good guy.
This tells me this is whathappened early in the book.
So there's mine.
Kat Lewis (04:18):
I think that's a great example, Micah, because
they very quickly established inthe books that this is a
destitute area of the world.
And so it'd be very easy for itto just be like, every man for
themselves.
But that's not, that's the heartthat she comes to us.
With as she comes to us with,no, I'm going to go, I'm going
to go to battle for my sister.
And if I die, I die.
(04:39):
But at least it wasn't her.
So that's a great, that's agreat quote, Micah.
Melissa Grace (04:42):
Because, and this is Melissa, because that is what
her character is all about, istaking care of her family.
I mean, she loved her dad somuch and he was killed, and she
just took on his mantle ofprovider.
Laurel Thomas (04:58):
I mean, that shows the spunk of Katniss.
Also, they were starving todeath.
Her mother was in probably aclinical depression, unable to
move, barely able to breathe.
And so Katniss, we see thebeginning of the heroism of her
character because she refuses toYou know, her sister, Primm, was
(05:23):
starved.
Right.
And it's for Primm, which hasbecome so important all the way
through.
Kat Lewis (05:32):
What else?
What other examples of quotesthat stood out to you guys?
Laurel Thomas (05:36):
Well, you know, in Lord of the Rings, it's Sam.
Frodo's, yeah, he's the maincharacter, but Sam is the hero.
And to me, Katniss is the maincharacter, but Peeta is the
hero.
And they're talking about goinginto the arena for the first
time.
They're up on the roof of thetrain.
And he said, I just hope that Idon't lose who I am.
(06:01):
And Katniss looks at him like,what?
This is about survival.
In fact, she's still like maybeall this niceness is just a game
on Peeta's part to manipulate meand to get me into a weak place.
But Peeta on the other hand issaying, I hope this doesn't
(06:21):
change me.
I hope that I don't become,, abrutal killer.
Out of, out of thiscircumstance.
So, to me, that's an incredibleindicator of his character.
Even though he's quiet.
He's certainly, I don't know, ishe as handsome as Gale?
I don't know.
Kat Lewis (06:39):
Absolutely not.
Laurel Thomas (06:40):
Right, that's what my daughter says.
Micah Leydorf (06:41):
Yeah, there's not a question.
We don't need to, we can answerthat question for you, Laura.
No, no, he is not.
Melissa Grace (06:47):
I remember when the movies first came out and it
was like, you know, Team Gale,Team Peeta.
And I was like, oh my goodness,it's a Hemsworth.
There's no contest.
Kat Lewis (07:02):
That's great.
That's great.
No, talk about the reactionsthat people have towards Peeta,
towards Gale because they aresuch emotional change engines in
the story, right?
And even Prim, right?
They do kind of force Katniss todetermine how she's going to
move one way or the other.
Okay.
So we will be discussing theentire trilogy today.
(07:23):
So let me give you guys a quickbreakdown on what each book
covers just so you have thatfloating in the back of your
head.
So book one is where Katnissvolunteers to go to the games
for her sister in her sister'sstead.
Um, and she and Peeta managed tocheat the system.
You're supposed to have oneVictor standing at the end of
the day.
(07:43):
And she and Peeta both make itout of the arena with their
lives.
That unwittingly makes her atarget for Book Two, because
President Snow, the head of thiscapital Pan Am system, sees this
growing momentum of dissent.
And so his solution in Book Twois to send all of the past
victors back into the arena forHunger Games, totally breaking
(08:04):
all the rules.
And Katniss and Peeta just kindof stumble their way through a
second horrific experience.
But at the end of book two iswhen this deeper plot of the
victors coming together as theleaders and the head of a
massive rebellion against theCapitol.
Book three covers the kind ofbirth and first initial
(08:27):
movements of this insurrection.
And book three covers the factthat Katniss is totally
disinterested in being thespokesperson for it.
She's PTSD ridden.
She has seen her home destroyed.
And so book three really takesus through Katniss's strongest
character arc of really risingto become the heroine that
(08:47):
everybody is expecting of her,but also speaking out over her.
So that's the groundwork for thethree books that we are going to
be discussing today.
So that kind of, you know, jumpstarts us into the next
question, which is what's avisceral moment that stands out
for you guys in this novel?
Micah Leydorf (09:05):
Okay.
So we're visceral moments thatwe're talking about.
I know what, there's so muchviolence.
There's so much action that youwould think that one of those
scenes would be like thevisceral moment.
But for me?
I really remember and was moststruck by, I think it was the,
um, like the banquet before thegames were about to start and
(09:26):
their at the Capitol and allthese people in their ridiculous
lavish, gaudy.
And they took these pills sothat they could eat and then
like eat more.
Like they actually throw it upand it was just like that was
this visceral that it's likethat picture of the Capitol is
what made all the rest of itmakes sense.
(09:46):
If that these people arestarving, they're struggling,
they're literally killing eachother.
And yet you have these peoplecompletely oblivious.
Just indulging in, You know,living it up.
And it was just a very visceraldepiction of social commentary.
So for me that, that scene, thatball and that indulgence, that
(10:10):
ridiculous indulgence.
Melissa Grace (10:12):
Well, that's so interesting because one of the
visceral moments for me was whenKatniss and Gale before the
first reaping, they have alittle feast.
They have good bread and applesand goat cheese.
And you know, so simple, butprobably just as yummy as, but,
it just made me; just thethought of like hungry people
(10:37):
getting to savor; and they werejust both so excited for just
this little bit of cheese andthis little bit of bread.
It was like, I just felt it withthem.
And to me, that little simplemeal indulged my senses more
than the extravagance.
Micah Leydorf (10:57):
So funny, that both of our reactions involve
food and this book is called TheHunger Games.
But yet, I never really evenconnected like Hunger Games with
real hunger.
But yet, that's what we don'tlike kind of picked up.
Kat Lewis (11:10):
Interesting.
What about you, Laurel?
Laurel Thomas (11:13):
Well, again, I mean, when Katniss, who I think,
I love the way Suzanne Collinsbuilds her, as Micah said, such
a sympathetic protagonist.
Even though she's out of theordinary.
She had no interest in being aleader; really the only thing
that propelled her forward waslove for her sister.
(11:35):
And really, I would say, it wasPrim alone that she would have
and did volunteer for.
And so we see Katniss with hermoments of compassion that rise
up and cause her to act, makesher such a strong protagonist.
(11:57):
And she does that over and over,but you know, I love the one
it's probably in book three andin the Mockingjay where they
take her to district 11 And it'sbombed and there's a hospital
there.
And really Katniss They've triedto coach her.
They've tried to put her inmakeup and make her look fierce
and she looks silly instead Butit's when her compassion when
(12:23):
she sees the Capitol Airplanesbomb the hospital that they've
just visited.
And she rises up into that placeof the Mockingjay and is, is
totally unapologetic, totallywinning, totally appealing, and
has the strength to shift aculture.
(12:44):
And I think it's so interestingto see that in a young
protagonist who really had nointention of taking that place.
Kat Lewis (12:53):
That's good, Laurel.
You know, Katniss, I strugglewith Katniss because there are
moments when I really love her.
And then there are moments whenI'm just really tired of her,
right?
I'm like, get your act together,sister.
But one of Katniss strongestattributes is her compassion for
other people.
Suzanne Collins does a reallyinteresting thing where we see
(13:13):
the she's all about selfpreservation, right?
So we think.
But the quickest way to jar herout of that is for her to view
the injustice of somebody sheloves, somebody that she sees as
hers to protect.
And so a visceral moment for methat has always just wrecked my
soul is in book two, as she'spreparing to go into the shuttle
(13:36):
to be sent up to the arena forthe second time, when they beat
Sinna in front of her.
At that point, there's all thismomentum at that, you know, the
interview before where Peeta'sweaving this whole elaborate
story of we're engaged andthere's a baby and there's this
camaraderie and kind ofagreement amongst the victors.
(13:57):
It's starting to kind of getclear to Katniss.
There was a little bit moregoing on behind the scenes than
I thought but I'm still not surewhat that has to do with me.
And then this mentor of hers,that she loves and that really
coached her through those firstgames.
I think seeing those soldiersintentionally beat him in front
of her.
That kind of stirs up this firethat's fed throughout the rest
(14:20):
of the series.
So that's a visceral moment thatstands out for me.
I mean, I cried in the book andI cried in the movie, right?
I'm not a Lenny Kravitz fangenerally, but I just was like,
he's such a phenomenalcharacter.
But also, the whole Team Peeta,Team Gale thing, you know, I'm
fully team Gale.
I'm unapologetically team Gale.
(14:40):
Fight me on it.
But she had so many tendermoments with Peeta in book two
in preparation for going backinto the arena that all of those
kind of sweet, innocentexchanges of sunset paintings,
right.
Maybe this is where that commentof why this is on the band
books.
Laurel had mentioned that HungerGames is on the banned books
cause it's pornographic.
And they spend a lot of time inbed together because they both
(15:02):
have nightmares.
And like together is the onlyway that they can sleep.
I'm like, in a Bridgerton era,you consider that pornographic?
Micah Leydorf (15:12):
I don't know who does consider that.
Kat Lewis (15:14):
I don't think so.
I would not consider that.
Melissa Grace (15:17):
I feel like they made very clear that they were
just sleeping.
Laurel Thomas (15:20):
Well, and two, maybe we're skipping a little
bit ahead here, but I thinkPeeta in the very end, spoiler
alert, she says, I didn't needGale's fire.
I needed Peeta's kindness.
And I think, you see thatKatniss's biggest flaw is, hey,
(15:40):
we're just going to get it done.
Let's just get it done.
Melissa Grace (15:43):
I mean, I loved, I'll throw in my favorite quote
here.
I loved how Collins putcharacters in a nutshell with
just like a little line or two.
And with Katniss, it was, shetalked very early in the first
book.
This crazy link startedfollowing me around the woods.
While she was hunting lookingfor handouts.
(16:04):
I finally had to kill it becauseit scared off game I almost
regretted it because it wasn'tbad company, but I got a decent
price for the pelt".
She's very pragmatic.
I mean she is not just This youknow Yes, yes
Kat Lewis (16:24):
I mean, I do think that she did such a great job of
juxtaposing these very differentkinds of masculinity.
Right.
Gale, who was the go getter andwho we automatically assume is
more masculine because he islike, Let's run away.
Let's fight the Capitol.
I'll suit up.
I'll go.
And then Peeta, who's moreintrospective, who's more
emotionally in tune Who's moreemotionally vulnerable.
(16:47):
Katniss has the emotionalintelligence of a brick.
Okay.
She does.
She does.
And it takes Peeta really likedrawing kind of these self
revelations out of her that makeher go.
You know, one of the most heartwrenching scenes in the series
is when in book three when, Sothey're able to rescue Katniss
(17:11):
at the end of book two, but notrescue Peeta.
And so rescuing Peeta is a hugedriving force for her in book
three.
And when they finally get Peetaback, he's broken.
And he hates her.
And it breaks her heart.
And I think that's probably themotivating the thing that jars
her out of her complacency morethan anything
Laurel Thomas (17:30):
well, that and not being sure that Gale wasn't
a part of bombing District 11volunteers.
Because President Snow bringsthat up and he just he plants
that seed of doubt was were theycapital?
Melissa Grace (17:46):
Okay, so I had a bone to pick with that.
Okay huge spoiler.
When Katniss gets the honor ofexecuting President Snow, but
instead of doing that at thelast minute, she executes Coin.
And I just felt like there justwasn't enough.
It was just a leap too far forme.
(18:07):
I just needed one more, one moresentence to connect that to
reality.
Because she has been anunreliable narrator kind of a
lot.
Laurel Thomas (18:18):
oKay, when they had the round table, are we
going to continue the hungergames, but on our basis and coin
says let's take a vote.
And at that point, we see, okay,Peeta is a dissenting voice.
I think there's a couple others,but not Haymitch and not
Katniss.
Melissa Grace (18:38):
Well, yeah, that was another thing I just had a
problem with that.
I felt like it was out ofcharacter.
And like I said, I just neededone little bit of concrete
evidence connecting.
Kat Lewis (18:51):
And I would agree with that, Melissa.
It's really interesting.
I can see where she was going.
And I understand why she didwhat she did, but it took me a
second to understand how thestory supported us putting an
arrow in President Coin, right
Laurel Thomas (19:06):
It was very clear to me.
Kat Lewis (19:08):
I could see all of the foreshadowing.
But the pieces weren't asconcrete as I was hoping.
I feel like this is kind ofgreat transition into, let's
talk about what aspects of thecraft of writing is done really
well in this book.
And I feel like the discussionsof motivation and plot
trajectory, all of these thingsare touching on the craft that's
(19:29):
done so well that we actuallyhave So, what stands out to you
guys?
Was there any technique that youlearned or relearned reading
this book or watching themovies?
Laurel Thomas (19:40):
I think she is a master at the plot twist.
Micah Leydorf (19:44):
Is there one that comes to mind immediately for
you, Laurel?
Laurel Thomas (19:46):
Yeah, the end when she shoots Coin instead of
Snow.
Because that, it's sounexpected.
And yet, if you go back, which Ithink Is a characteristic of a
strong novel; to have to go backand go.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute What happened
Kat Lewis (20:04):
exactly?
How did we get here?
Laurel Thomas (20:05):
Was there a framework laid for this?
Was it enough?
But it's strong and it makessense You know when you look in
light of what has happened.
So to me, it's a masterful plottwist
Kat Lewis (20:22):
I think she does a great job of ending every single
book with a plot twist thatpropels you into the next book.
You were talking, Laurel, abouthow all three books read it as
one seamless story.
It's because at the end of bookone, we're left with this kind
of startling.
You know, we're expecting eitherfor Peeta to have to kill
Katniss or Katniss to killPeeta.
(20:44):
It doesn't happen, right?
Plot twist, but the plot twistcreates a question of: how is
the capital going to respond andwe're been launched into the
next section of the story.
Laurel Thomas (20:55):
That's good.
Melissa Grace (20:56):
Well, I thought just her technical strength.
Each chapter had an arc.
She just had such good pacing.
That's just what we're taughtthat, every scene has a purpose
and there's a change in thesituation, the character from
the beginning to the end.
And she just did that so verywell.
(21:16):
And I also, I think that thatKatniss's character arc, She
doesn't change until her worldchanges.
Like she doesn't decide, okay, Ican be a mother.
I can bring children into thisworld until the world is
different.
Micah Leydorf (21:32):
I do think that the characters that she develops
are one of her real strengths.
Because here we are, we'redebating about Katniss and about
what her motivation was, youknow, changes and all those
things.
And so that's a sign of a goodcharacter that they're, you
know.
Fully developed enough that wecan care.
Or that you're team Gale, you'reteam Peeta, and you can talk
(21:54):
about there.
So I think she was really goodat creating these care or even
president snow of, you know, thevillains.
And I mean, Effie, or you weresaying like Seneca, all these
people were Hamish, like thesereally interesting characters
that you care about, or you hatethat evoke strong emotions.
So I feel like she did thatreally well.
Melissa Grace (22:15):
She did it so well.
Every character had
Micah Leydorf (22:18):
There's no, um, stereotypes.
I mean, or not tropes that'swhat we're familiar with here.
As authors like, oh, this is thetypical best friend character
and here's your typical villainsidekick or whatever.
And like all the people, theykind of defy those.
Kat Lewis (22:33):
She does an interesting twist on the trope.
So when you think of like thehero's best friend, you're not
going to immediately think of asibling, but Prim was the best
friend, I think for her.
When you think of like thementor, you don't think of the
drunk.
You don't immediately think thatalcoholism is like a stunning
characteristic of your mentor.
When you think about a strongparental force, that's moving
(22:55):
you forward, you don't think ofthe depressed, checked out mom,
right?
Like she, so I think that thetropes are there.
She just did such a great job ofunderstanding the purpose of the
trope that she can flip them anddo something super funky with
them.
Even again, talking about Galeand Peeta, two sides of this
masculine, who is the real malehero in her life.
(23:16):
And for her, it's not who wethought it was going to be,
right.
so yeah, I think her use oftropes and flipping them on
their head is really is reallybrilliant.
I think her sinister subtext isalso equally brilliant.
You know, Hunger Games andDivergent were both released at
the same time.
And Hunger Games is by far morewildly successful than
(23:37):
Divergent.
Micah Leydorf (23:37):
The books were released at the same time?
Is that what you're saying?
Kat Lewis (23:40):
Within the same few years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I actually want to say thatDivergent came out before Hunger
Games.
Really?
Um, yes.
Melissa Grace (23:47):
Huh, I didn't realize that.
Kat Lewis (23:49):
As Hunger Games became more popular, they then
went back and made Divergent.
But it's like, what makes thesenovels so different?
And I think that from what I cantell, Divergent spends a lot of
time laying out this veryobvious evil government subtext.
Whereas it is so subtle here.
There's a clear villain, buttalk about how President Snow
(24:10):
has created within his ownphilosophy, this culture, right?
Because President Snow is asubtle man.
So the evil of the culture issubtle, right?
You have to get to the lavishbanquet to be quietly disgusted
by the fact that my family'sstarving and you guys are
vomiting up this food.
Melissa Grace (24:28):
And You don't have to have a lot of subtext
when the government wantschildren to kill each other I
mean that is that just I meanthat just saves all of that.
Yeah, it's just there and
Kat Lewis (24:44):
What's interesting is even though it's It's the whole
Premise of the story.
I don't actually ever think thatshe gets preachy about I
Melissa Grace (24:54):
Which is the strength of it, which is the
strength.
Kat Lewis (24:56):
The conversation happens because of the story.
She never sits here and talksabout killing children is evil
and da da da da.
Laurel Thomas (25:03):
Killing children for entertainment.
Micah Leydorf (25:06):
But it's even worse.
It's even worse.
Kat Lewis (25:09):
It's for entertainment.
And like, how you havegenerations of people who, They
don't see anything wrong withit.
Micah Leydorf (25:16):
They're desensitized.
Melissa Grace (25:17):
Well, and, and I feel like, you know, back to
lessons in craft, just that'sshowing versus telling.
Micah Leydorf (25:25):
Yeah, yeah, how much more effective is that than
if they all sat around and saidthe Capitol is so horrible.
They do all these horriblethings.
They're just so evil.
And he's like forget that.
Like we're just gonna have Effieget up in her fancy outfit and
be like, may the odds be ever inyour favor.
And this is a big game and we'reand it's like It's just the
horrificness of it, but youdon't talk about how horrific it
(25:46):
is.
You just feel it from theexperience.
Melissa Grace (25:48):
You feel it.
Yes.
Kat Lewis (25:50):
One of the things about The Hunger Games that has
made it such a kind of culturalmovement, if you will, is all of
the social commentary that'swoven within this novel.
So let's talk about what aretruths about society, about the
human experience that areexplored, confirmed, or
(26:10):
challenged in this novel.
Micah Leydorf (26:13):
Well, I would just go back to something that I
spoke to, but then youreiterated there, Kat, about
just the desensitization of theother's experience.
You know, when it's notaffecting you, that you can just
be okay with cruelty to others.
Oh, that's district 11.
Oh, that's district 12.
Somehow they must have donesomething that justifies their
(26:38):
treatment.
I just think that that's a veryuniversal experience.
It can happen in the smallestways from like bullying at
schools, like, okay, well, I'mokay.
So it's okay that other peopleto, you know, the war in
Palestine.
Or hunger in Africa, you know,all, all the things, it's just,
um, very much human for us tonot have sympathy for the other.
Laurel Thomas (27:03):
I see, too, that our culture places children on
an altar, and children sufferbecause of the altar that we
place them on.
And you can look at the cultureof excess in the Capitol, and
you see both ends, but what isat stake in our culture?
It's our children.
(27:24):
How are we desensitized abouthow our children are?
What kind of culture are theyliving in?
How are they victimized by ourculture?
How are they not being protectedin our culture?
I mean, we don't want to look atit that way.
That's a little too personal,right?
Right.
Kat Lewis (27:42):
And how is our action or inaction inadvertently
allowing children to sufferbecause I'm not willing to do
the countercultural thing.
We glorify children as long asit serves us, but we're really
not interested at all in, insacrificing and genuinely
(28:02):
saying.
You know, you talk about likebullying in schools.
It's like, why is bullying soprevalent that kids are killing
themselves.
That we have fights breaking outthat are ending up in kids in
the hospital?
Like, in a society that saysthat we value children, where
are the adults?
We're, and I'm not talkingabout, I'm not talking about
teachers.
Where are the parents that aresaying, No, ma'am, we're not,
(28:25):
we're not having that right.
But there's all these enginesthat just contradict the
pedestal.
Laurel Thomas (28:30):
Well, and bottom line, children are the hope of
the culture.
So basically the show not tellis that we're going to kill the
hope of the future for you,right?
So President Snow says, we'lltake care of the future, right?
We'll make sure that you're soterrified and that we take your
children as our prey.
(28:50):
To make our point that yourhope, your future is hopeless.
Kat Lewis (28:54):
Wow.
Melissa Grace (28:55):
Well, the truth that I loved how she portrayed
everyone as damaged.
And I felt like a big theme wastrauma has consequences.
You know, the Avengers standsand get pounded for an hour and
then they go and eat Shwarmas.
I mean, they're fine.
Micah Leydorf (29:13):
There's no PTSD.
Melissa Grace (29:14):
There's no PTSD.
They're depressed.
Micah Leydorf (29:17):
They're not guilt ridden from the people they've
killed.
Melissa Grace (29:21):
And, and it's not just violent.
I mean, you know, sitcoms wherethere's a big hookup culture.
There's never any consequenceshown for that.
I just think it's veryrefreshing.
And it just, it was theirstrength.
She turned it into, like, thecharacters, their damage.
Was their powers in theirsincerity and in them being who
(29:45):
they were with their damage Likeyou talked about how Katniss,
when they tried to script her,she was horrible.
But when she leaned into who shereally was with all that
bringing all of her baggage, shewas effective.
She was a powerful leader.
And I just, I feel that's amessage for all of us.
Micah Leydorf (30:08):
I think that's very profound.
Kat Lewis (30:10):
I think that's beautiful, Melissa, because, um,
there is this idea that you haveto be perfect to be hero and
heroic.
Heroism is actually choosing toact in spite of your alcoholism.
In spite of your deep, deepfear,
Melissa Grace (30:27):
I mean, just think, I mean, just that right
there, a character that's analcoholic and is a hero.
I mean, that's a good book.
I mean, you have to try to messup that book.
Kat Lewis (30:40):
It just shows that maybe the healing comes in
Micah Leydorf (30:44):
service
Kat Lewis (30:45):
and applying yourself to a good, a worthy cause.
Um, and being around damaged,other damaged people who are
choosing to do a valiant thing.
I think there's, there's anuplifting right out of
compassion.
Melissa Grace (31:02):
And the way Collins wrote Katniss was, I
felt like her not drowningbuttercup, it was her holding
onto her humanity.
Even in that really, horribleplace she lived in and she
allied with Rue and I mean, ifshe hadn't been so damaged,
those things would not have beenas powerful.
Laurel Thomas (31:23):
Well, and it's interesting, at the very deepest
part of her brokenness, she andButtercup grieved together.
So, powerful scene.
Kat Lewis (31:32):
I think that's a really uplifting page to end on
with the Hunger Games.
Again, it's been around for along time.
There's so much conversationaround the good, the bad, what's
portrayed well, what's notportrayed well.
And it's very easy to get deepinto the woods of dark twisted
governments which is true in andof its own right.
But I think that the messagethat can be taken away from
(31:54):
Hunger Games is how are yougoing to act?
Micah Leydorf (31:57):
Or how are you going to hang on to your
humanity?
I just love, I love that.
You know, I love that idea inthis dystopian world or
Laurel Thomas (32:05):
I think that's why Peeta is the one.
Because he hangs onto hishumanity all the way through.
Kat Lewis (32:12):
Yeah.
And shows her the way
Melissa Grace (32:14):
Even when they try so hard to take it from him
with the brainwashing.
Well, and if you look at hisfamily, he's totally rejected.
His family is rooting forKatniss.
Not for him.
Kat Lewis (32:26):
So yeah, I think for audiences is explore your own
humanity.
First of all, what does it looklike for you to hang on to your
humanity?
And then explore that with yourcharacters.
What does it look like for yourcharacter to hang on to their
humanity at all costs, even ifit's not explicitly stated?
In fact, I think it's morepowerful for it not being
(32:47):
explicitly stated.
Because then the reader isrequired to go on the journey
with your character to figure itout.
So what a lively, wonderful,thought provoking discussion
about Suzanne Collins The HungerGames.
If you've not read it, you guysget on it immediately.
You will blitz through it at thepool.
You'll blitz through it at thebeach.
(33:08):
It's worth your time.
And we will see you guys nexttime for Stories That Change Us.
Welcome friends to the 11th episode of the Stories
That Change Us podcast, where weevaluate and analyze bestselling
fiction in the hopes that weourselves will be able to write
bestselling fiction.
My name is Kat Lewis, and I am aauthor who writes thrilling
women's fiction.
And I'm here with some of myfabulous author friends, and
(00:23):
we're just going to round tableand introduce ourselves.
Laurel Thomas (00:26):
Great.
I'm Laurel Thomas.
I write redemptive fantasy.
Micah Leydorf (00:30):
And this is Micah Leydorf.
Melissa Grace (00:33):
I'm Melissa Grace.
I write inspirational fictionfor the general market.
Kat Lewis (00:38):
Fabulous.
And we are in the middle of ourseries where we take fabulous
books that have equally fabulousmovie adaptations.
And our poison today, you guys,is the one, the only The Hunger
Games.
So for those of you who do notknow, The Hunger Games is a 2008
dystopian young adult novelwritten by American author
(01:01):
Suzanne Collins.
It is written from theperspective of 16 year old
Katniss Everdeen, who lives in afuture post apocalyptic nation
resembling North America.
And as a reminder of a failedrebellion, each District is
forced to submit a child betweenthe ages of 12 and 18 to fight
(01:23):
to the death in a event calledthe Hunger Games.
So, just a few facts.
By this point the Hunger Gameshas been around since 2008.
I believe that the first filmcame out in 2012.
So this should be a householdname.
Spoiler alert, you've had plentyof time, almost 10 years, you
(01:44):
guys, to get on the Hunger Gamestrain.
So between the three booktrilogy and the four movie
series, I would say that this isone of the most successful film
franchises of modern times.
Just a few facts for you.
For one the Hunger Games bookshave sold over a hundred million
(02:04):
copies.
That's crazy.
It was a 50, 000 copy first bookprint.
So for all the authors in theroom who are pursuing
traditional publishing, you knowhow stellar that is.
It's lucky, you're lucky to get10, 000 copy print, right?
Your first run.
So that's insane.
Within 18 months, the HungerGames sold over a hundred
thousand copies.
(02:25):
The book series collectively haswon over a hundred awards.
Movie stats for you guys.
It's the 14th highest grossingmovie in America of all time.
Micah Leydorf (02:37):
That is really remarkable.
Kat Lewis (02:38):
That is shocking.
Micah Leydorf (02:39):
That is.
Cause I mean, it's a YA, right?
It's a young adult novel.
Like we did the Godfather lasttime, which is, like huge, one
of the all time best.
But you don't usually put thosetwo in the same boat.
And yet that it's the 14thhighest of all time.
Kat Lewis (02:55):
That's a lot.
That's a lot.
That's a lot.
And they project that it madeover 700 million at the box
office.
Insane, insane.
And just interesting, you thinkabout how does an author come up
with this idea of gladiatorialgames for children, right?
Apparently this is her activesocial commentary about the wars
(03:16):
in Iraq.
Just interesting how she'sprocessing these things and this
is what she comes up with thisseries, the Hunger Games.
So let's just, let's just diveright on in.
So first question for us toconsider is"what is your
favorite quote of this novel?
What's a quote that stands outto you as an excellent example
of tension, author's voice, orcharacter development?"
Micah Leydorf (03:39):
So this is Micah, and I was going to just throw
out just a really well knownone.
But I think again, sometimes theability to create those quotes
that everyone can remember iswhen Katniss, says, I volunteer
as tribute.
And I think that makes her asympathetic character and a
likable character.
(04:00):
Sacrifice for another person.
So we can overlook a lot of herflaws and as authors, we talk
about a lot of times the savethe cat moment where the person
does the thing that they savethe cat.
It's like, Oh, okay.
This is a good guy.
This tells me this is whathappened early in the book.
So there's mine.
Kat Lewis (04:18):
I think that's a great example, Micah, because
they very quickly established inthe books that this is a
destitute area of the world.
And so it'd be very easy for itto just be like, every man for
themselves.
But that's not, that's the heartthat she comes to us.
With as she comes to us with,no, I'm going to go, I'm going
to go to battle for my sister.
And if I die, I die.
(04:39):
But at least it wasn't her.
So that's a great, that's agreat quote, Micah.
Melissa Grace (04:42):
Because, and this is Melissa, because that is what
her character is all about, istaking care of her family.
I mean, she loved her dad somuch and he was killed, and she
just took on his mantle ofprovider.
Laurel Thomas (04:58):
I mean, that shows the spunk of Katniss.
Also, they were starving todeath.
Her mother was in probably aclinical depression, unable to
move, barely able to breathe.
And so Katniss, we see thebeginning of the heroism of her
character because she refuses toYou know, her sister, Primm, was
(05:23):
starved.
Right.
And it's for Primm, which hasbecome so important all the way
through.
Kat Lewis (05:32):
What else?
What other examples of quotesthat stood out to you guys?
Laurel Thomas (05:36):
Well, you know, in Lord of the Rings, it's Sam.
Frodo's, yeah, he's the maincharacter, but Sam is the hero.
And to me, Katniss is the maincharacter, but Peeta is the
hero.
And they're talking about goinginto the arena for the first
time.
They're up on the roof of thetrain.
And he said, I just hope that Idon't lose who I am.
(06:01):
And Katniss looks at him like,what?
This is about survival.
In fact, she's still like maybeall this niceness is just a game
on Peeta's part to manipulate meand to get me into a weak place.
But Peeta on the other hand issaying, I hope this doesn't
(06:21):
change me.
I hope that I don't become,, abrutal killer.
Out of, out of thiscircumstance.
So, to me, that's an incredibleindicator of his character.
Even though he's quiet.
He's certainly, I don't know, ishe as handsome as Gale?
I don't know.
Kat Lewis (06:39):
Absolutely not.
Laurel Thomas (06:40):
Right, that's what my daughter says.
Micah Leydorf (06:41):
Yeah, there's not a question.
We don't need to, we can answerthat question for you, Laura.
No, no, he is not.
Melissa Grace (06:47):
I remember when the movies first came out and it
was like, you know, Team Gale,Team Peeta.
And I was like, oh my goodness,it's a Hemsworth.
There's no contest.
Kat Lewis (07:02):
That's great.
That's great.
No, talk about the reactionsthat people have towards Peeta,
towards Gale because they aresuch emotional change engines in
the story, right?
And even Prim, right?
They do kind of force Katniss todetermine how she's going to
move one way or the other.
Okay.
So we will be discussing theentire trilogy today.
(07:23):
So let me give you guys a quickbreakdown on what each book
covers just so you have thatfloating in the back of your
head.
So book one is where Katnissvolunteers to go to the games
for her sister in her sister'sstead.
Um, and she and Peeta managed tocheat the system.
You're supposed to have oneVictor standing at the end of
the day.
(07:43):
And she and Peeta both make itout of the arena with their
lives.
That unwittingly makes her atarget for Book Two, because
President Snow, the head of thiscapital Pan Am system, sees this
growing momentum of dissent.
And so his solution in Book Twois to send all of the past
victors back into the arena forHunger Games, totally breaking
(08:04):
all the rules.
And Katniss and Peeta just kindof stumble their way through a
second horrific experience.
But at the end of book two iswhen this deeper plot of the
victors coming together as theleaders and the head of a
massive rebellion against theCapitol.
Book three covers the kind ofbirth and first initial
(08:27):
movements of this insurrection.
And book three covers the factthat Katniss is totally
disinterested in being thespokesperson for it.
She's PTSD ridden.
She has seen her home destroyed.
And so book three really takesus through Katniss's strongest
character arc of really risingto become the heroine that
(08:47):
everybody is expecting of her,but also speaking out over her.
So that's the groundwork for thethree books that we are going to
be discussing today.
So that kind of, you know, jumpstarts us into the next
question, which is what's avisceral moment that stands out
for you guys in this novel?
Micah Leydorf (09:05):
Okay.
So we're visceral moments thatwe're talking about.
I know what, there's so muchviolence.
There's so much action that youwould think that one of those
scenes would be like thevisceral moment.
But for me?
I really remember and was moststruck by, I think it was the,
um, like the banquet before thegames were about to start and
(09:26):
their at the Capitol and allthese people in their ridiculous
lavish, gaudy.
And they took these pills sothat they could eat and then
like eat more.
Like they actually throw it upand it was just like that was
this visceral that it's likethat picture of the Capitol is
what made all the rest of itmakes sense.
(09:46):
If that these people arestarving, they're struggling,
they're literally killing eachother.
And yet you have these peoplecompletely oblivious.
Just indulging in, You know,living it up.
And it was just a very visceraldepiction of social commentary.
So for me that, that scene, thatball and that indulgence, that
(10:10):
ridiculous indulgence.
Melissa Grace (10:12):
Well, that's so interesting because one of the
visceral moments for me was whenKatniss and Gale before the
first reaping, they have alittle feast.
They have good bread and applesand goat cheese.
And you know, so simple, butprobably just as yummy as, but,
it just made me; just thethought of like hungry people
(10:37):
getting to savor; and they werejust both so excited for just
this little bit of cheese andthis little bit of bread.
It was like, I just felt it withthem.
And to me, that little simplemeal indulged my senses more
than the extravagance.
Micah Leydorf (10:57):
So funny, that both of our reactions involve
food and this book is called TheHunger Games.
But yet, I never really evenconnected like Hunger Games with
real hunger.
But yet, that's what we don'tlike kind of picked up.
Kat Lewis (11:10):
Interesting.
What about you, Laurel?
Laurel Thomas (11:13):
Well, again, I mean, when Katniss, who I think,
I love the way Suzanne Collinsbuilds her, as Micah said, such
a sympathetic protagonist.
Even though she's out of theordinary.
She had no interest in being aleader; really the only thing
that propelled her forward waslove for her sister.
(11:35):
And really, I would say, it wasPrim alone that she would have
and did volunteer for.
And so we see Katniss with hermoments of compassion that rise
up and cause her to act, makesher such a strong protagonist.
(11:57):
And she does that over and over,but you know, I love the one
it's probably in book three andin the Mockingjay where they
take her to district 11 And it'sbombed and there's a hospital
there.
And really Katniss They've triedto coach her.
They've tried to put her inmakeup and make her look fierce
and she looks silly instead Butit's when her compassion when
(12:23):
she sees the Capitol Airplanesbomb the hospital that they've
just visited.
And she rises up into that placeof the Mockingjay and is, is
totally unapologetic, totallywinning, totally appealing, and
has the strength to shift aculture.
(12:44):
And I think it's so interestingto see that in a young
protagonist who really had nointention of taking that place.
Kat Lewis (12:53):
That's good, Laurel.
You know, Katniss, I strugglewith Katniss because there are
moments when I really love her.
And then there are moments whenI'm just really tired of her,
right?
I'm like, get your act together,sister.
But one of Katniss strongestattributes is her compassion for
other people.
Suzanne Collins does a reallyinteresting thing where we see
(13:13):
the she's all about selfpreservation, right?
So we think.
But the quickest way to jar herout of that is for her to view
the injustice of somebody sheloves, somebody that she sees as
hers to protect.
And so a visceral moment for methat has always just wrecked my
soul is in book two, as she'spreparing to go into the shuttle
(13:36):
to be sent up to the arena forthe second time, when they beat
Sinna in front of her.
At that point, there's all thismomentum at that, you know, the
interview before where Peeta'sweaving this whole elaborate
story of we're engaged andthere's a baby and there's this
camaraderie and kind ofagreement amongst the victors.
(13:57):
It's starting to kind of getclear to Katniss.
There was a little bit moregoing on behind the scenes than
I thought but I'm still not surewhat that has to do with me.
And then this mentor of hers,that she loves and that really
coached her through those firstgames.
I think seeing those soldiersintentionally beat him in front
of her.
That kind of stirs up this firethat's fed throughout the rest
(14:20):
of the series.
So that's a visceral moment thatstands out for me.
I mean, I cried in the book andI cried in the movie, right?
I'm not a Lenny Kravitz fangenerally, but I just was like,
he's such a phenomenalcharacter.
But also, the whole Team Peeta,Team Gale thing, you know, I'm
fully team Gale.
I'm unapologetically team Gale.
(14:40):
Fight me on it.
But she had so many tendermoments with Peeta in book two
in preparation for going backinto the arena that all of those
kind of sweet, innocentexchanges of sunset paintings,
right.
Maybe this is where that commentof why this is on the band
books.
Laurel had mentioned that HungerGames is on the banned books
cause it's pornographic.
And they spend a lot of time inbed together because they both
(15:02):
have nightmares.
And like together is the onlyway that they can sleep.
I'm like, in a Bridgerton era,you consider that pornographic?
Micah Leydorf (15:12):
I don't know who does consider that.
Kat Lewis (15:14):
I don't think so.
I would not consider that.
Melissa Grace (15:17):
I feel like they made very clear that they were
just sleeping.
Laurel Thomas (15:20):
Well, and two, maybe we're skipping a little
bit ahead here, but I thinkPeeta in the very end, spoiler
alert, she says, I didn't needGale's fire.
I needed Peeta's kindness.
And I think, you see thatKatniss's biggest flaw is, hey,
(15:40):
we're just going to get it done.
Let's just get it done.
Melissa Grace (15:43):
I mean, I loved, I'll throw in my favorite quote
here.
I loved how Collins putcharacters in a nutshell with
just like a little line or two.
And with Katniss, it was, shetalked very early in the first
book.
This crazy link startedfollowing me around the woods.
While she was hunting lookingfor handouts.
(16:04):
I finally had to kill it becauseit scared off game I almost
regretted it because it wasn'tbad company, but I got a decent
price for the pelt".
She's very pragmatic.
I mean she is not just This youknow Yes, yes
Kat Lewis (16:24):
I mean, I do think that she did such a great job of
juxtaposing these very differentkinds of masculinity.
Right.
Gale, who was the go getter andwho we automatically assume is
more masculine because he islike, Let's run away.
Let's fight the Capitol.
I'll suit up.
I'll go.
And then Peeta, who's moreintrospective, who's more
emotionally in tune Who's moreemotionally vulnerable.
(16:47):
Katniss has the emotionalintelligence of a brick.
Okay.
She does.
She does.
And it takes Peeta really likedrawing kind of these self
revelations out of her that makeher go.
You know, one of the most heartwrenching scenes in the series
is when in book three when, Sothey're able to rescue Katniss
(17:11):
at the end of book two, but notrescue Peeta.
And so rescuing Peeta is a hugedriving force for her in book
three.
And when they finally get Peetaback, he's broken.
And he hates her.
And it breaks her heart.
And I think that's probably themotivating the thing that jars
her out of her complacency morethan anything
Laurel Thomas (17:30):
well, that and not being sure that Gale wasn't
a part of bombing District 11volunteers.
Because President Snow bringsthat up and he just he plants
that seed of doubt was were theycapital?
Melissa Grace (17:46):
Okay, so I had a bone to pick with that.
Okay huge spoiler.
When Katniss gets the honor ofexecuting President Snow, but
instead of doing that at thelast minute, she executes Coin.
And I just felt like there justwasn't enough.
It was just a leap too far forme.
(18:07):
I just needed one more, one moresentence to connect that to
reality.
Because she has been anunreliable narrator kind of a
lot.
Laurel Thomas (18:18):
oKay, when they had the round table, are we
going to continue the hungergames, but on our basis and coin
says let's take a vote.
And at that point, we see, okay,Peeta is a dissenting voice.
I think there's a couple others,but not Haymitch and not
Katniss.
Melissa Grace (18:38):
Well, yeah, that was another thing I just had a
problem with that.
I felt like it was out ofcharacter.
And like I said, I just neededone little bit of concrete
evidence connecting.
Kat Lewis (18:51):
And I would agree with that, Melissa.
It's really interesting.
I can see where she was going.
And I understand why she didwhat she did, but it took me a
second to understand how thestory supported us putting an
arrow in President Coin, right
Laurel Thomas (19:06):
It was very clear to me.
Kat Lewis (19:08):
I could see all of the foreshadowing.
But the pieces weren't asconcrete as I was hoping.
I feel like this is kind ofgreat transition into, let's
talk about what aspects of thecraft of writing is done really
well in this book.
And I feel like the discussionsof motivation and plot
trajectory, all of these thingsare touching on the craft that's
(19:29):
done so well that we actuallyhave So, what stands out to you
guys?
Was there any technique that youlearned or relearned reading
this book or watching themovies?
Laurel Thomas (19:40):
I think she is a master at the plot twist.
Micah Leydorf (19:44):
Is there one that comes to mind immediately for
you, Laurel?
Laurel Thomas (19:46):
Yeah, the end when she shoots Coin instead of
Snow.
Because that, it's sounexpected.
And yet, if you go back, which Ithink Is a characteristic of a
strong novel; to have to go backand go.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute What happened
Kat Lewis (20:04):
exactly?
How did we get here?
Laurel Thomas (20:05):
Was there a framework laid for this?
Was it enough?
But it's strong and it makessense You know when you look in
light of what has happened.
So to me, it's a masterful plottwist
Kat Lewis (20:22):
I think she does a great job of ending every single
book with a plot twist thatpropels you into the next book.
You were talking, Laurel, abouthow all three books read it as
one seamless story.
It's because at the end of bookone, we're left with this kind
of startling.
You know, we're expecting eitherfor Peeta to have to kill
Katniss or Katniss to killPeeta.
(20:44):
It doesn't happen, right?
Plot twist, but the plot twistcreates a question of: how is
the capital going to respond andwe're been launched into the
next section of the story.
Laurel Thomas (20:55):
That's good.
Melissa Grace (20:56):
Well, I thought just her technical strength.
Each chapter had an arc.
She just had such good pacing.
That's just what we're taughtthat, every scene has a purpose
and there's a change in thesituation, the character from
the beginning to the end.
And she just did that so verywell.
(21:16):
And I also, I think that thatKatniss's character arc, She
doesn't change until her worldchanges.
Like she doesn't decide, okay, Ican be a mother.
I can bring children into thisworld until the world is
different.
Micah Leydorf (21:32):
I do think that the characters that she develops
are one of her real strengths.
Because here we are, we'redebating about Katniss and about
what her motivation was, youknow, changes and all those
things.
And so that's a sign of a goodcharacter that they're, you
know.
Fully developed enough that wecan care.
Or that you're team Gale, you'reteam Peeta, and you can talk
(21:54):
about there.
So I think she was really goodat creating these care or even
president snow of, you know, thevillains.
And I mean, Effie, or you weresaying like Seneca, all these
people were Hamish, like thesereally interesting characters
that you care about, or you hatethat evoke strong emotions.
So I feel like she did thatreally well.
Melissa Grace (22:15):
She did it so well.
Every character had
Micah Leydorf (22:18):
There's no, um, stereotypes.
I mean, or not tropes that'swhat we're familiar with here.
As authors like, oh, this is thetypical best friend character
and here's your typical villainsidekick or whatever.
And like all the people, theykind of defy those.
Kat Lewis (22:33):
She does an interesting twist on the trope.
So when you think of like thehero's best friend, you're not
going to immediately think of asibling, but Prim was the best
friend, I think for her.
When you think of like thementor, you don't think of the
drunk.
You don't immediately think thatalcoholism is like a stunning
characteristic of your mentor.
When you think about a strongparental force, that's moving
(22:55):
you forward, you don't think ofthe depressed, checked out mom,
right?
Like she, so I think that thetropes are there.
She just did such a great job ofunderstanding the purpose of the
trope that she can flip them anddo something super funky with
them.
Even again, talking about Galeand Peeta, two sides of this
masculine, who is the real malehero in her life.
(23:16):
And for her, it's not who wethought it was going to be,
right.
so yeah, I think her use oftropes and flipping them on
their head is really is reallybrilliant.
I think her sinister subtext isalso equally brilliant.
You know, Hunger Games andDivergent were both released at
the same time.
And Hunger Games is by far morewildly successful than
(23:37):
Divergent.
Micah Leydorf (23:37):
The books were released at the same time?
Is that what you're saying?
Kat Lewis (23:40):
Within the same few years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I actually want to say thatDivergent came out before Hunger
Games.
Really?
Um, yes.
Melissa Grace (23:47):
Huh, I didn't realize that.
Kat Lewis (23:49):
As Hunger Games became more popular, they then
went back and made Divergent.
But it's like, what makes thesenovels so different?
And I think that from what I cantell, Divergent spends a lot of
time laying out this veryobvious evil government subtext.
Whereas it is so subtle here.
There's a clear villain, buttalk about how President Snow
(24:10):
has created within his ownphilosophy, this culture, right?
Because President Snow is asubtle man.
So the evil of the culture issubtle, right?
You have to get to the lavishbanquet to be quietly disgusted
by the fact that my family'sstarving and you guys are
vomiting up this food.
Melissa Grace (24:28):
And You don't have to have a lot of subtext
when the government wantschildren to kill each other I
mean that is that just I meanthat just saves all of that.
Yeah, it's just there and
Kat Lewis (24:44):
What's interesting is even though it's It's the whole
Premise of the story.
I don't actually ever think thatshe gets preachy about I
Melissa Grace (24:54):
Which is the strength of it, which is the
strength.
Kat Lewis (24:56):
The conversation happens because of the story.
She never sits here and talksabout killing children is evil
and da da da da.
Laurel Thomas (25:03):
Killing children for entertainment.
Micah Leydorf (25:06):
But it's even worse.
It's even worse.
Kat Lewis (25:09):
It's for entertainment.
And like, how you havegenerations of people who, They
don't see anything wrong withit.
Micah Leydorf (25:16):
They're desensitized.
Melissa Grace (25:17):
Well, and, and I feel like, you know, back to
lessons in craft, just that'sshowing versus telling.
Micah Leydorf (25:25):
Yeah, yeah, how much more effective is that than
if they all sat around and saidthe Capitol is so horrible.
They do all these horriblethings.
They're just so evil.
And he's like forget that.
Like we're just gonna have Effieget up in her fancy outfit and
be like, may the odds be ever inyour favor.
And this is a big game and we'reand it's like It's just the
horrificness of it, but youdon't talk about how horrific it
(25:46):
is.
You just feel it from theexperience.
Melissa Grace (25:48):
You feel it.
Yes.
Kat Lewis (25:50):
One of the things about The Hunger Games that has
made it such a kind of culturalmovement, if you will, is all of
the social commentary that'swoven within this novel.
So let's talk about what aretruths about society, about the
human experience that areexplored, confirmed, or
(26:10):
challenged in this novel.
Micah Leydorf (26:13):
Well, I would just go back to something that I
spoke to, but then youreiterated there, Kat, about
just the desensitization of theother's experience.
You know, when it's notaffecting you, that you can just
be okay with cruelty to others.
Oh, that's district 11.
Oh, that's district 12.
Somehow they must have donesomething that justifies their
(26:38):
treatment.
I just think that that's a veryuniversal experience.
It can happen in the smallestways from like bullying at
schools, like, okay, well, I'mokay.
So it's okay that other peopleto, you know, the war in
Palestine.
Or hunger in Africa, you know,all, all the things, it's just,
um, very much human for us tonot have sympathy for the other.
Laurel Thomas (27:03):
I see, too, that our culture places children on
an altar, and children sufferbecause of the altar that we
place them on.
And you can look at the cultureof excess in the Capitol, and
you see both ends, but what isat stake in our culture?
It's our children.
(27:24):
How are we desensitized abouthow our children are?
What kind of culture are theyliving in?
How are they victimized by ourculture?
How are they not being protectedin our culture?
I mean, we don't want to look atit that way.
That's a little too personal,right?
Right.
Kat Lewis (27:42):
And how is our action or inaction inadvertently
allowing children to sufferbecause I'm not willing to do
the countercultural thing.
We glorify children as long asit serves us, but we're really
not interested at all in, insacrificing and genuinely
(28:02):
saying.
You know, you talk about likebullying in schools.
It's like, why is bullying soprevalent that kids are killing
themselves.
That we have fights breaking outthat are ending up in kids in
the hospital?
Like, in a society that saysthat we value children, where
are the adults?
We're, and I'm not talkingabout, I'm not talking about
teachers.
Where are the parents that aresaying, No, ma'am, we're not,
(28:25):
we're not having that right.
But there's all these enginesthat just contradict the
pedestal.
Laurel Thomas (28:30):
Well, and bottom line, children are the hope of
the culture.
So basically the show not tellis that we're going to kill the
hope of the future for you,right?
So President Snow says, we'lltake care of the future, right?
We'll make sure that you're soterrified and that we take your
children as our prey.
(28:50):
To make our point that yourhope, your future is hopeless.
Kat Lewis (28:54):
Wow.
Melissa Grace (28:55):
Well, the truth that I loved how she portrayed
everyone as damaged.
And I felt like a big theme wastrauma has consequences.
You know, the Avengers standsand get pounded for an hour and
then they go and eat Shwarmas.
I mean, they're fine.
Micah Leydorf (29:13):
There's no PTSD.
Melissa Grace (29:14):
There's no PTSD.
They're depressed.
Micah Leydorf (29:17):
They're not guilt ridden from the people they've
killed.
Melissa Grace (29:21):
And, and it's not just violent.
I mean, you know, sitcoms wherethere's a big hookup culture.
There's never any consequenceshown for that.
I just think it's veryrefreshing.
And it just, it was theirstrength.
She turned it into, like, thecharacters, their damage.
Was their powers in theirsincerity and in them being who
(29:45):
they were with their damage Likeyou talked about how Katniss,
when they tried to script her,she was horrible.
But when she leaned into who shereally was with all that
bringing all of her baggage, shewas effective.
She was a powerful leader.
And I just, I feel that's amessage for all of us.
Micah Leydorf (30:08):
I think that's very profound.
Kat Lewis (30:10):
I think that's beautiful, Melissa, because, um,
there is this idea that you haveto be perfect to be hero and
heroic.
Heroism is actually choosing toact in spite of your alcoholism.
In spite of your deep, deepfear,
Melissa Grace (30:27):
I mean, just think, I mean, just that right
there, a character that's analcoholic and is a hero.
I mean, that's a good book.
I mean, you have to try to messup that book.
Kat Lewis (30:40):
It just shows that maybe the healing comes in
Micah Leydorf (30:44):
service
Kat Lewis (30:45):
and applying yourself to a good, a worthy cause.
Um, and being around damaged,other damaged people who are
choosing to do a valiant thing.
I think there's, there's anuplifting right out of
compassion.
Melissa Grace (31:02):
And the way Collins wrote Katniss was, I
felt like her not drowningbuttercup, it was her holding
onto her humanity.
Even in that really, horribleplace she lived in and she
allied with Rue and I mean, ifshe hadn't been so damaged,
those things would not have beenas powerful.
Laurel Thomas (31:23):
Well, and it's interesting, at the very deepest
part of her brokenness, she andButtercup grieved together.
So, powerful scene.
Kat Lewis (31:32):
I think that's a really uplifting page to end on
with the Hunger Games.
Again, it's been around for along time.
There's so much conversationaround the good, the bad, what's
portrayed well, what's notportrayed well.
And it's very easy to get deepinto the woods of dark twisted
governments which is true in andof its own right.
But I think that the messagethat can be taken away from
(31:54):
Hunger Games is how are yougoing to act?
Micah Leydorf (31:57):
Or how are you going to hang on to your
humanity?
I just love, I love that.
You know, I love that idea inthis dystopian world or
Laurel Thomas (32:05):
I think that's why Peeta is the one.
Because he hangs onto hishumanity all the way through.
Kat Lewis (32:12):
Yeah.
And shows her the way
Melissa Grace (32:14):
Even when they try so hard to take it from him
with the brainwashing.
Well, and if you look at hisfamily, he's totally rejected.
His family is rooting forKatniss.
Not for him.
Kat Lewis (32:26):
So yeah, I think for audiences is explore your own
humanity.
First of all, what does it looklike for you to hang on to your
humanity?
And then explore that with yourcharacters.
What does it look like for yourcharacter to hang on to their
humanity at all costs, even ifit's not explicitly stated?
In fact, I think it's morepowerful for it not being
(32:47):
explicitly stated.
Because then the reader isrequired to go on the journey
with your character to figure itout.
So what a lively, wonderful,thought provoking discussion
about Suzanne Collins The HungerGames.
If you've not read it, you guysget on it immediately.
You will blitz through it at thepool.
You'll blitz through it at thebeach.
(33:08):
It's worth your time.
And we will see you guys nexttime for Stories That Change Us.
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