November 2, 2023 • 42 mins
Riveting, controversial, and flawlessly epic, Marget Mitchel's, Gone With The Wind, has stirred the flames of adoration and outrage since its publication in 1936. Join the discussion as we unlock the secrets to vibrant historical settings, character arcs that shock us, and external tension that forces the plot to keep moving forward in this beloved, American classic.
Moderated By: Laurel Thomas
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
https://instagram.com/storiesthat_changeus?igshid=eTlibmFxdXZmbXV5&utm_source=qr
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laurel (00:01):
Hello, ladies, and welcome to our third episode of
the Stories That Change Uspodcast.
I'm thrilled because this weekwe're going to be discussing
that grand historical romance, asweeping Civil War epic, and
some would say a horribleapologetic for the slavery of
(00:22):
the South, Gone with the Wind byMargaret Mitchell.
I almost expect a response fromyou guys, but seriously.
Here are our novel stats forGone with the Wind.
Over 30 million copies sold in25 languages.
That's amazing.
(00:43):
It won a Pulitzer Prize in 1937,just one year after the book was
published.
And it features belovedcharacters of Scarlett O'Hara,
Rhett Butler, and Mammy.
and many more.
So today we're just going to bebreaking down some of the
elements, which is what we dofor Gone with the Wind, one of
(01:05):
our favorite historic epics.
So let's just start with what isour favorite quote in this very
large tome.
Micah (01:15):
Yes, yes,
Kat (01:16):
yes, this is, this is one of those books that I,
unapologetically say, is aweapon.
Like, can be weaponized at anymoment.
Throw it at somebody, smacksomebody with it.
It is a thick, heavy novel.
Laurel (01:33):
Okay, point
Kat (01:33):
taken.
Right, yeah, just suggestionsfor the audience.
Micah (01:37):
Alright, so I'll throw out there, this is Micah, and
I'll throw out, mine is againjust a really simple one.
Um, and there's so much going onin this novel, but I feel like
kind of of the heart of all ofit is the romance, and I love
the quote, you don't have tolike, you know, look it up or
write it down, you know it, it'slike, you should be kissed, and
often, by someone, and who knowshow.
(01:58):
By Rhett Butler.
I mean, everybody remembersthat, right?
You don't, like I say, you don'thave to like, look it up, and
it's like, don't we all justturn out.
Laurel (02:06):
Right there with Frankly, I don't give a damn.
Micah (02:10):
Right, you were afraid I was going to say that, right?
So, I, again, I feel like thatthat is the, there's so many
things that appeal in thisstory, but it's the romance.
It's the romance that, like,draws us in and makes this such
a beloved story.
Kat (02:24):
And it's the romance of a strong man to a strong woman.
Right?
Micah (02:29):
Yes.
Um, yes.
Kat (02:30):
And I would say that neither Rhett Butler nor
Scarlett O'Hara are moralcharacters to aspire to, but
they paint such a great pictureof how does a strong man woo a
strong woman?
How does a strong woman respondto a strong man?
And what are the, what are thepros and cons of this kind of
(02:51):
relationship?
I, that, that to me is whatmakes me melt about that.
You know, you should be kissedenough often by someone who
knows how is because we strongwomen, that's what we want.
We just are sometimes.
To self conscious or honestlytoo afraid of abusers taking
advantage of that to say, yes,please kiss me until I don't
know my name, right?
Micah (03:13):
That is an interesting thing about Rhett nobody's
talking about Rhett Butler'shigh moral integrity, and yet,
we are still unapologeticallyswooning over this man.
Kat (03:26):
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
Micah (03:26):
So, I, I think I'm gonna, Scarlett, again, nobody's
holding her up as the echelon ofmoral integrity.
And yet, she is beloved.
One of the most memorable andbeloved characters in...
You know, American literature,for sure.
Laurel (03:41):
It's very funny to me because here's my quote.
This is Scarlett.
If only she wasn't having ababy.
Here was a God given opportunityto ride out to the mill with
Ashley every day, through thelonely woods, far from the
prying eyes.
They could imagine the unhurrieddays before the war.
(04:02):
And then, of course, she saysshe's not going to talk about
loving him, because, you know,they'll have to run.
But, I'm like, seriously! Ifonly I wasn't having a baby!
Melissa (04:13):
Well, I have to say, this is Melissa, and my favorite
quote is also a, a rep quote andit is, Dear Scarlett, you aren't
helpless.
Anyone as selfish and determinedas you are is never helpless.
And I just love it.
It encapsulates both hercharacter, because she is
(04:33):
selfish and determined, but alsohis because he calls her out.
I mean, that's what we loveabout him is that he sees her
darkest truth and calls her outon it, but still seems to like
her.
I mean, it's kind of amazing.
Micah (04:53):
See, once again, Melissa, I think you hit the nail on the
head, right?
What do we love about Rhett?
Like, he sees her.
He is not fooled like all theseother men who are fooled by her
charms and her manipulations.
It's like, Rhett sees her andloves her anyway.
Isn't that what we all want?
Right.
Yeah.
Laurel (05:12):
Well, and it would be my argument that Rhett does have
integrity because he's not boundby social mores.
And so much of what is drivenin, Scarlet's culture is social
mores that are being smashed inthe gut, you know.
And here we have Rhett, who'snot bound in any way by those,
(05:35):
who just speaks the truth.
Micah (05:37):
So I guess that's a, when I say integrity, I guess what I
was really thinking about wasself sacrifice.
And that's what, you know, othercharacters might have, that
Rhett does not.
There's integrity, frankness.
True.
But then, he is not, he is justlike Scarlet.
Out for Rhett.
Melissa (05:57):
He's a benefit opportunist.
Micah (05:58):
Yes.
Laurel (05:59):
Well, because he'd be used to the hilt by Scarlet
Kat (06:03):
But also I think that, you know, the thing that I love most
about Rhett is, for all of hiscalling her out, I think that,
you know, and he says this toScarlet, he's like, we're one of
a kind, like we are alike.
But in being alike, he alsorecognizes the soft, tender
places and maybe even themotivations, that might be
worthy, that are drivingScarlett.
(06:24):
Yeah.
Um, because I think today, asmuch as Scarlett is so selfish
and she's so, you know, stubbornthat we miss that most of what
she does is for the security ofher family.
Right?
And we miss that.
And we miss that becausebetween...
Laurel (06:40):
I missed that.
Micah (06:41):
I don't miss that
Kat (06:42):
now.
Okay, I was like, what?
Between, you know, marrying yoursister's beau and using these
men like they're yo yos, right?
At the end of the day,especially towards the second
half of the novel, she very muchcould have said, I'm only
worried about my security and somy family can go, you know, bite
it.
But everything she does isabout...
(07:03):
It's about money for the familyand it's about money.
It's securing this land, right?
And I think that, that Rhett,even if Scarlet doesn't want to
admit that there's a soft tenderthing to be acknowledged and,
tended to, I think Rhett can seethat.
And it's, I think it's probablythe redeeming quality about
Scarlet that Rhett is probablyin his head thinking.
(07:25):
At least I like to think Rhettis in his head thinking.
He's like, if I can become oneof Scarlet's soft, tender
things, I will have a fiercewarrior at my side, who will
have been worth the chase.
Micah (07:35):
I love that.
Kat (07:36):
That's what I think.
That's what I think.
Laurel (07:38):
That's very sweet.
I love that.
Micah (07:40):
Laurel's like, that's very sweet, but I don't buy it.
Kat (07:43):
I don't buy it at all.
Laurel (07:45):
Well, I mean, and we won't go here yet, but I think
that the whole theme is aboutchange.
And, you know, how people fightfor the past and how Scarlet is
fighting for the past.
with all that is within her.
Kat (07:59):
I disagree.
Laurel (08:00):
Okay, alright.
Kat (08:03):
Fighting for the past and perceptions of the past actually
leads really well into my quote.
Um, my name is Kat Lewis, by theway, and this is a quote from
Ashley, who is one of my leastfavorite characters in this
novel, but Ashley says, PerhapsI want the old days back again,
and they'll never come back, andI am haunted by the memory of
them, and of the world fallingabout my ears.
(08:26):
And I, this quote was reallypowerful to me because I think
that in a post pandemic world,there's a lot of people who feel
like the old world is nevercoming back.
And they feel like they feellike they're continually
reaching for the ghost of thisthing.
And to me, the juxtaposition is,Ashley is pining for the old
world and Scarlet is firmly,eyes fixed ahead towards this
(08:49):
new thing, right?
And while she might miss the oldworld, she is like, I see too
many opportunities, right?
Melissa (08:56):
She's too pragmatic.
Laurel (08:57):
She is the ultimate pragmatic woman, yes.
Micah (09:02):
I think that that is really interesting.
And you say, like, the pandemic,which of course we can feel that
now, but I think that's...
It's universal.
I feel like every singlegeneration longs for this, you
know, you know, we talk aboutthe lost cause myth of the
South.
And of course this epic just is,you know, the poster child for
(09:23):
that, right?
Melissa (09:23):
Yeah.
Micah (09:24):
It better than anything else, explains and brings us
into that world and helps us tounderstand it, which is one of
the reasons why I think again,it's popularity and it's
longevity.
But I think there's a little bitof all of us.
That universality that we allknow what it's like to long for
a better time or our, ourperceived perception of what was
(09:47):
a better time.
That's good.
And I do think too that, youknow, you're exactly right that
Ashley absolutely personifiesthat he personifies the old
South in this novel.
And that's actually why, I don'tknow about you guys, but we hate
that about Scarlet.
Like, why are you hanging on toAshley?
(10:07):
Like, why do you have thisfixation with him?
Like, it's, like you said aboutthe baby, like, oh my gosh,
woman, let it go! Can't you seethat you have, you know, Rhett
in front of you.
Melissa (10:22):
So Scarlet does personified in Ashley, she does
have like a romanticism towardthe past, just a little bit.
I mean, if we follow theanalogy, the way she's been
pining for him, it's almost likeit's, it's never been a reality.
Laurel (10:42):
Bingo.
That's the theme.
You know, that's where it is.
It is a myth.
And I think, you know, well,Melissa and I were talking
earlier about, massive change inour lives.
And how do we, how do wenavigate massive change?
For one thing, we like the oldbecause we know how to deal with
(11:03):
it.
And yet there is a myth here andit is a strong myth.
And how much does that reallygrab our culture and keep us in
places that really resists theright kind of change.
But of course, anyway.
Let's not go there quite yet.
What I would like to ask next iswhat would you consider a moment
of no return in the book?
(11:25):
A moment that stands out withvisceral relief and how did that
impact the character's movement,personal journey, and influence
the story as a whole?
Micah (11:36):
Well, this is Micah and I would say for me, the I guess I
always go to the obvious pointof no return is whenever she
goes back and is hungry and sheclaws in the dirt with her
fingernails and digs up, Iforget whether it was radishes
or potatoes or something on theground and stuffs them in her
mouth and then wretches because,you know, she can't.
(11:59):
You know, her stomach can'tstand it and she, holds up her
fist to the sky and says as Godis my witness, I will never go
hungry again.
And it's just like, I will kill,I will, well she does.
You know, I will, I will marry,I will do whatever it takes to
survive.
Like, gone is the 16 year old.
Melissa (12:22):
Life is not a game anymore.
Micah (12:23):
You know, it's like, I am going to do this I'm a survivor
right.
And what she's seeing all aroundher like we'll get into this
later you know like like Melanieor Ashley or you know, all these
other southern ladies andgentlemen.
They're not survivors.
They're like, I'm not willing todo what it takes.
I'll just, I'll just go, I'lljust go with, go with the wind.
(12:44):
And she's like, no, not me.
Melissa (12:46):
I love that.
Yeah.
I love that.
Kat (12:47):
Wow.
That's powerful.
I just got chills.
Laurel (12:51):
It is.
And I think that's what we loveabout Scarlet, you know, because
she does say, look, I've made avow here in how powerful the vow
is to propel you either in theright direction or in the wrong
direction.
But basically, yeah, that wouldbe visceral relief.
(13:13):
Melissa, what about you?
Melissa (13:15):
Well, I think that when Scarlett dances with Rhett at
that, is it a fundraiser?
She, I think that...
She's like, he, I think maybeshe saw him as like, just a
little partner in crime.
You know, somebody who, let'sflaunt the silly rules of
(13:39):
decorum together.
Come on, let's do it.
Let's
Kat (13:42):
That's such a good perspective, Melissa.
And I would actually agree withyou that that's a really strong
emotional turning point.
Melissa (13:48):
Right.
Kat (13:49):
Because she does, she finds a companion and she sees the
world for what it is.
Melissa (13:54):
That's right.
Kat (13:55):
And even though she's like, I will never desire you, so
spend your, you know, wishingwell pennies on something else,
right?
I do think that she goes fromseeing him as this rake to be
despised to, this
Melissa (14:09):
He understands her.
Kat (14:10):
Partner.
Yeah,
Micah (14:11):
so an equal.
Like no one is her equal.
Melissa (14:14):
That's right.
An equal and somebody that shecan relate to when everybody
else is going with the wind.
Yeah.
Kat (14:23):
I would say that a point of no return, another Scarlet and
there's so many moments ofScarlet and these men.
But, is when, Ashley comes backhome from war and he and Scarlet
have this little interlude outin one of the field sheds where
he finally admits to Scarlet andsays, I love you, but there's
(14:44):
nothing we can do about it.
And I saw that as a point of noreturn because I saw Scarlet
turning back to some oldmentalities.
From this climax of, we willnever be hungry again, right?
And the shedding of this oldself, right?
I saw the old self returning inthis scene in a way that haunts
her through the rest of thebook.
(15:05):
If she could have said, In thatmoment, he is part of the old
thing, and he's proven that he'sloyal to this, weak wisp of a
woman, um, if she could have, ifshe could have had that
mentality.
I think that the book would havebeen different in so many
different, in so many ways, butI saw that as the, the old self
bringing, bringing itself backinto the forefront.
(15:29):
And it's just, to me, it wassuch a good reminder of always
being aware of the old thingthat you have laid down
Laurel (15:36):
Well, and of course, I think, you know, the whole
obsession with Ashley kind ofgoes with the whole myth, um,
that, wow, of what she believedthat he was, the mythical
qualities of Ashley were notenduring at all, which I think
is like a little personalexample of, of the South and the
(15:57):
mores of the South.
I mean, I love the South.
I spent a lot of summers in theSouth, but the mores that held
it together, we're not going toendure.
And they were built, they werebuilt on a myth just as surely
as Ashley is built on a myth.
Kat (16:15):
Well, and we can't talk about the myth that it was built
on without saying that, like,the reason those mores could not
have stood is because all ofthese things were built on the
backs of slavery of really likethe probably, um, you know, uh,
for American culture, a prettyheinous.
and system, right?
Micah (16:35):
And some would argue it's more heinous and, you know, and
of course slavery is alwaysheinous and we know it exists
today.
But there's a lot of things thatare uniquely heinous about the
American institution of slavery.
And how partially how it was,celebrated almost like protected
and, and, um, and,
Melissa (16:53):
preacher said it was the right thing.
Micah (16:55):
It was even, yeah, even like the churches, you know,
churches protecting it say, oh,this is how things should be
instead of.
This is just pragmatic.
This is just what we have to do.
There has to be winners andlosers when we take over a
culture and we're going to makeall the people are slaves now,
or there's a debt and you owe memoney.
So now you're my slave versuslike systematically, enslaving a
(17:17):
whole race of people andseparating families and just all
of the
Kat (17:22):
right.
So, so absolutely to that point,like that's.
It could not have stood, right?
Even though the greatestcritique of this book is this
kind of glamorous over the top,you know, you know, nostalgic
view of the South, right?
I
Laurel (17:37):
think it was pretty clear.
I mean, the whole, to me, whatstruck me about the novel was
that the clarity of.
Showing what the culture waslike in the South and how it was
stratified and how when the warcame, I mean, it was awful, but
the aftermath was equally awfulwhen nobody knew anymore,
Kat (18:02):
where are the social boundaries, political boundaries
and yeah, and
Laurel (18:08):
really Rhett it.
I think comes out as a hero inmany ways because he navigates
that with an honest eye andreally with courage.
Um, but it going to the story, Imean, if this big story hadn't
been cloaked, or if the bighistory hadn't been cloaked by a
(18:28):
story, it wouldn't have had theimpact.
And so for me, the most, theturning point was really when
Bonnie died and Rhett at thatpoint.
I realized oh This is a tragedyit's a tragedy and then I was
like, okay now, I know how it'sgonna end
Kat (18:47):
Wow honestly, that, that I would say is the emotional
turning point of the story,100%, because Scarlett and Rhett
don't come back from that.
Like, they...
You know, they, there were someother moments where Scarlett
left or Rhett was like, I'm sickof this affair with Ashley, that
they managed to kind of likecome back together as a unit,
but Bonnie's death really diddestroy whatever it was that
(19:11):
they had built.
Micah (19:12):
And Rhett just clearly lays that out.
He says it, you know, pointblank.
He says, if there was any hopefor us, you know, it died at
that point.
Laurel (19:20):
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
And it's interesting becauseRhett realizes that Scarlet, of
course, is clueless.
Kat (19:30):
Well, talking about, talking about...
clinging to the old thing.
I, I do think that, that Rhett'sdownfall with Scarlet is
clinging to this old hope thatthis woman would change, right?
And for all the reasons that heloved her and all the things
about Scarlet that neverchanged, those are the very
things that destroyed theirlove.
(19:51):
And so as much as I can sit hereand judge Ashley for
representing the old thing, andrepresenting the old South and
these old mentalities, Rhettsuccumbed to the very same thing
where he was like, I was hopingthat that 16 year old, selfish,
self centered, obstinate womanwould have changed over all this
time.
It would have changed for me.
And she just doesn't.
And you know, and she even endsthe novel kind of wiser, more
(20:14):
mature.
Micah (20:15):
I don't know.
You can't say she doesn'tchange.
I mean, really.
I mean, think about that.
That, that 16 year old changesdramatically.
Melissa (20:22):
She changes.
Her, her pragmatism sets on adifferent target.
Her,
Kat (20:28):
That's a great way to say it.
Melissa (20:29):
At the beginning of the novel, at the beginning of the
novel, it's about having everyboy in the room like her.
It's about having everyconversation be about her.
And then at the end of thenovel, it's about feeding
people, including herself.
But her heart doesn't change.
She stays this child.
Laurel (20:52):
Well, and it's interesting, she has, like,
toward the end, unless we knowScarlet at this point, we don't
realize how significant it is,she has regrets.
And she doesn't know what to dowith regret.
And she finally just says, I'llthink about it tomorrow.
Melissa (21:10):
So, she has a little glimmer of hope of,
Micah (21:14):
A little self recollection of a little of,
yeah.
Melissa (21:17):
Yes.
Laurel (21:18):
Very, very brief.
And then she says,, I've alwaysbeen able to win a man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like, totally clueless.
Melissa (21:27):
A moment of self awareness
Kat (21:30):
I can't remember.
I do think that there's a sequelfloating around out there where
she does win Rhett back.
Oh! And I think that ruins thewhole premise of novel!
Melissa (21:38):
I was gonna say, Margaret Mitchel would be like,
no, no, no, no, no.
Laurel (21:42):
Well, so if we took two characters, from the book and
discovered, I talked about powerdynamics, which, of course,
we've been doing that a lot.
Actually, which 2 people wouldyou choose?
And how would you say that thereare power dynamics that we see
in the novel?
Micah (22:00):
Okay, I'm going to do a Kat here and take a really kind
of.
Seemingly small side characters.
And I think it's reallyinteresting about Prissy and
Scarlet.
Remember Prissy, who was thelittle, um,
Kat (22:16):
house servant, house slave,
Micah (22:18):
right.
Um, during when Melanie ishaving her baby and everybody
remembers just like theinfuriating way that.
She took her time, you know,doing what she wanted to do and
Scarlet was, literally slaps heracross the face.
(22:38):
But I just think it'sinteresting, the dynamic, uh, I
think it's, I don't know, I justthink it's really interesting.
Because Scarlet's the master.
She should be able to tell herwhat to do.
Or she thinks she should be ableto tell her what to do and that
she should just do it.
And Rissy is just not gonna doit.
And she's...
You know, going to do her ownthing and do what she wants.
(23:00):
And I just think that that, youknow, you talk about the back
and forth of like, Oh, you hadthe power.
Now I have the power.
Now you have the power, youknow?
So in this moment of crisis.
Like,
Kat (23:12):
I don't, I see what you're saying, Micah.
I don't know if Prissy's a greatexample.
Because Prissy has alwaysactually struck me as being on
the spectrum.
Okay.
I'm dead, dead serious when Isay that.
And so I'm like, I, that wouldsuck to be an autistic African
trying to navigate thishorrible, horrible system.
But I think that same powerdynamic exists between Scarlett
(23:35):
and Mammy.
Yeah, yeah.
It's very interesting how Mammycan manipulate Scarlet, right?
I think about that very firstscene where Scarlet's determined
to go to this barbecue nothaving eaten.
And Mammy is like, over my deadbody, and Mammy knows, knows the
buttons to twist, right?
You know, and Mammy's insistenceto go with her, to Atlanta.
(23:56):
And it's like, if, if Scarlet'sthe true, true master here,
Mammy should be able, she shouldbe able to say, you're not
going, and that's it.
Laurel (24:05):
You know, it's interesting, Kat, that you said
that because Mammy is the oneshe wants to run back to at the
end.
Kat (24:11):
You know what?
I was reading this veryinteresting article talking
about how, How it was the slavegovernesses and, and nurse maids
who really showed affection tochildren versus their actual
parents who were so used tobeing harsh and abusive, right?
(24:35):
That they couldn't be loving totheir own children.
And so these kids really were,really saw these, this house
staff.
Laurel (24:42):
Well, they had their hands on.
Kat (24:44):
They did.
They did.
And so we kind of see that, thatkind of.
Daughterly maternal thing with,I think, Scarlet and Mammy in a
different kind of way.
Very strong.
Micah (24:54):
Well, I think there's two things there.
Well, one of them is, it remindsme of, like, actually between
men and women.
People talk a lot of time about,you know, man and household.
And it's like, oh, it's like theman is the head, but the woman's
the neck.
Like the sides, which way thehead is going to turn.
And that's what kind of remindsme of like Mammy, like Mammy is
going to get Scarlett to do whatshe wants versus the other way
around because she's the neck.
(25:16):
Right.
Yeah.
So that dynamic, but then also Ithink that, what you say is very
true about, the house servantsbeing the ones who showed the
affection and you see that inThe Help, right.
Where that was, that was really,and that, and that was a little
bit controversial too, but thisidea of.
The black maid showing the loveto the little girl.
Laurel (25:37):
They were the hands on.
They got them up in the morningand changed their diapers and
made sure they were fed.
You know, to a child, that'slove.
Right.
So.
Kat (25:47):
But also, talking about like the, the morales of the
South that caused it to crumble.
You cannot dedicate your days.
To master mentality and then,and then turn it off when you
get home.
Right.
Like you can't.
So if we talk about like the,the, the power of the family
unit, it was already tainted.
It was already crumbling.
Micah (26:07):
I love that.
I went.
I went to D.
C.
with my son, like, a couplemonths ago, and there's like
this monument to George Mason,one of the forgotten Founding
Fathers, right?
Like, George Mason, like, who'she?
But there's this monument thatpeople kind of forget, like,
wedged in between FDR andJefferson, and, there was this
quote there about, and it wasagainst slavery, again, thinking
(26:30):
about a man ahead of his time,but it was talking about how, I
mean, obviously it's, it's acrime against humans, but it's
also a crime against their ownhumanity.
So, again, that's why I thinkyou're saying there, Kat, like,
you can't do this to otherpeople and it not irreparably
harm your own heart and soul.
Kat (26:50):
Absolutely.
Laurel (26:51):
That's good.
Melissa (26:51):
I loved the power dynamic between Scarlet and
Melanie
Micah (26:56):
oh, interesting
Melissa (26:57):
because, because Melanie of course she's the
object of Scarlet's fiery wrathbecause she wins Ashley, but,
um,
Micah (27:09):
well, not just because she wins, Ashley, but because
she's so undeserving inScarlett's eyes.
Yes, yes, exactly.
You're going to choose her?
Mealy Mallet?
Nothing?
Instead
Kat (27:19):
of me?
Why?
Melissa (27:21):
And, but then, I just, one of the most visceral scenes
is when, Melanie is stillrecovering from childbirth and
a, union soldier comes in andwants to rob them.
And Scarlett kills him.
And that is a turning point.
Micah (27:36):
No, Melanie kills.
Melissa (27:37):
No.
Scarlett shoots him.
But Melanie is.
Holding up that big, huge swordlike she would have tried.
She would have,
Micah (27:47):
but she wasn't strong enough.
Melissa (27:48):
She wasn't, but she was, she was exerting it in it.
In other words, it was in herheart.
Kat (27:56):
She had that same heart of valor of
Melissa (27:59):
I'm going to jump in and protect here.
I'm going to go down.
Yeah, I'll go down fighting.
That's right.
And that was, There were so manymoments where Scarlet had to
give Melanie the scrudgingrespect.
And that is the first, or Ithink it's the first.
Kat (28:17):
You know, and what I love about the power dynamic between
Scarlet and Melanie, is I seeMelanie as Scarlet's mother
reincarnate.
And so for Scarlet to havevalued her mother's...
Piety and devotion and kindnessand compassion.
All of those things that we seein Melanie, right?
(28:40):
Um, and Scarlet views Melaniewith such contempt and just kind
of like, bleh.
I, you know, um, it'sinteresting how Scarlet cannot
see that Melanie literally couldhave been her mother's protégé.
And How did Scarlet miss that?
And Scarlet bemoans in herself,she's like, I wish I was more
(29:00):
like my mother, right?
My mother is looking down fromheaven and just is horrified.
And I'm like, have you looked inat Melanie's eyes lately?
Is she my queen?
She's gonna cover it up.
Micah (29:08):
No, Melanie wasn't covering up.
She genuinely loved Scarlet.
She really did.
She wasn't secretly disdainfulof Scarlet.
No, no.
She, she saw Scarlet's strengthand she knew its value and she
loved Scarlet.
Melissa (29:21):
It was almost like, it was one of those things that
could have gone either way whereMelanie genuinely loving Scarlet
could have made Scarlett hateher even more.
It's like, how can you be sogood to like me, even though I
hate you?
Laurel (29:38):
Even at the end, Rhett goes to Melanie and basically
spills his guts.
And Melanie, she just, la la la,I can't hear this, I don't
believe this.
And you know, basically he'stelling her everything.
Because she is the lone person,other than Belle, we don't know
(30:00):
Belle that well, that Rhett canactually cry out to.
And, um, so it's so interestingthat Melanie just cannot see.
Micah (30:12):
The bad side.
Laurel (30:13):
She can't see the bad side.
Kat (30:14):
I do think that Melanie chooses not to see, though.
Because, you know, there's thatmoment when, when Rhett makes
Scarlet go to Ashley's birthdayparty after she's been caught
red handed kissing, making outwith, you know, Ashley.
And, Melanie...
Has such, um, to me, she's gotsuch a forbearance and such a
(30:35):
maturity that she's like, y'allmight be surprised, but like, I
have eyes, I see this tensionhere, and for whatever Melanie's
reasons were for not shankingScarlett at the first, at the
first moment.
And for whatever reason, Melaniechooses love or she chooses to
look the other way.
Or she chooses, maybe she'slike, Maybe, I don't, I mean, I
(30:58):
don't know.
There's so many, we could spenda whole hour on Melanie.
Laurel (31:01):
So are you saying, so are you saying that Melanie is
unique?
Uh, our original aspect of Gonewith the Wind,
Kat (31:08):
just, just like what we were saying about, I think it
was Outlander, how the worlditself is so fraught with
conflict that you, she, so shechose a really great world to
throw these characters in, butevery character is so complex,
right?
So
Micah (31:27):
I think what's so unique about Gone with the Wind is what
you just said.
It's the world.
It's the authenticity.
It's a recreating of this world.
Because again, lots of peoplehave written lots of historical
fiction, historical romance, butMargaret Mitchell recreated for
us this world of the pre CivilWar and post Civil War past that
(31:53):
was just so...
compelling and so authentic tothe time.
So I think that's, again, that'swhat I think is the stories that
change us.
Bridgerton will never do itbecause,
Kat (32:07):
because they're just, they're just putting, you
Micah (32:09):
know, like, our world into another time and put
rewriting the names and insteadof recreating the thought
processes and helping us to seethat.
So I think that's what is uniqueand what's really hard to do and
which, Probably no one else, Iwould say, has done even close
to as well as well as Gone WithThe Wind,
Kat (32:28):
and that's, that's such a beautiful, um, a beautiful point
in favor of this book.
Because it's that very thing,the fact that Margaret Mitchell
is writing from a nostalgicpoint of view.
She's like, this is a worldthat's dead and will never come
back.
And we're gonna, we will neverregain this lush, opulent,
sweeping, charismatic world.
(32:50):
And a lot of people reallydespise her for it because
they're like, yeah, this lushsweeping opulent world that was
built on the back of slavery.
And here's the deal.
I think that in order to not goback to those mentalities, you
have to know exactly what itlooked like.
You need it and and all thisvisceral color in order to one,
understand that mentality.
(33:11):
So we don't accidentally.
Trip our way back to it.
Micah (33:13):
Exactly.
That's exactly right Kat.
I mean like if, it's so easy forus to look back and say how
could they have done this?
Like, oh, I would never do that.
Like, oh, they must have been soevil.
Laurel (33:24):
Exactly.
Micah (33:25):
And instead of saying like, oh, no, this is what it
looked like.
Look, look how romantic andappealing it was.
Do you see now?
Like again, the danger of howyou could fall into that same
Laurel (33:37):
Well, and I think it's what makes it the I mean, as a
purist for historical fiction,it's just, it's just one of the
best because she's not preachingone way or the other.
She's telling a story and it'sintricately woven not only
authentic setting, but authenticpeople.
(33:59):
And even with Melanie, I justdon't feel like she's trying
heavy handedly preaching to usabout, you know, Melanie's
sweetness, because really to me,if we're just going to pick out
our little character rouletteperson, I mean, Melanie, to me,
I got frustrated with her.
I was like, seriously, girl, butshe was there for a reason.
(34:23):
She was a mirror.
To reflect Scarlet and viceversa.
I mean, they were two charactersthat absolutely had to be there.
We did not see, I mean, we saw,um, Scarlet's pragmatism in a
lot of ways, but when it wasagainst Melanie.
It was like polar opposite here.
(34:44):
And, and the funny thing isusually I would, you know, I'd
be like, Scarlet, quit beingsuch a, you know, whatever.
But I got irritated withMelanie.
I really did.
Micah (34:56):
When did you get it irritated?
I was like,
Laurel (34:58):
girl, girl, open your eyes.
I mean, are you such a romantic,such an idealist that even in
the end.
So I'm not saying that she's abad character, but in the end
when, when Rhett was justpouring out, I mean, he was
sobbing on her lap, pouring outall this junk.
(35:23):
She couldn't hear it.
She couldn't acknowledge it.
She couldn't do anything aboutit.
B a safe place, which she was,
Kat (35:34):
Okay.
So if we're going to use Melanieas our character that that we
talk about, as much as I canfault Ashley for his, ideology
for the Old South.
I think that from thisperspective, so too can we fault
Melanie for her loyal ideologytowards the new thing, the
potential of people.
(35:55):
Whatever, right?
Because I remember in the verybeginning of the book, you know,
when they, when, when they go totwelve oaks.
For the barbecue, whispers aboutMelanie and Melanie's family,
like they don't own a slaves.
Which just like establishesMelanie's character is like,
she's like, I am a humanitarian
Melissa (36:13):
she's above it.
Kat (36:14):
Yeah, she's above it.
Or maybe she just sees the evilfor what it is.
But it's that same ideology thatthat if at some point, Melanie
could have just had aconversation with Scarlett that
said.
Scarlet, I love you.
I respect you.
You're so amazing.
Leave my man alone.
Right?
There, there's an ideology thatMelanie
Laurel (36:44):
I won't cut you.
No, no, no, no.
Kat (36:45):
Laurel!
Laurel (36:46):
Sorry.
I'm just saying.
Kat (36:46):
But there's an ideology that ultimately she dies,
Melanie dies clinging to, thatcould have turned the story in a
different direction if MelanieFor whatever reason, had had the
power, the courage, theperspective to have said, no,
all these things are happeningunder my nose.
And as much as I am a pacifistand dah, dah, dah, dah, dah,
well, maybe not a pacifistbecause she was lugging around a
(37:06):
sword ready to chop somebody inhalf, you know, um, but I would
almost say that Melanie'sideology is what set these
characters on that path becauseMelanie was the turning point.
Melanie could have put a stop toit.
Melanie could have said, Ashley,you and I are moving out of
Atlanta because I know whatyou're doing with that woman,
right?
Um, but she didn't.
And so there's...
(37:28):
There's something to becritiqued there.
Laurel (37:30):
Well, I mean, I just think that, I mean, again, it's,
she's a layered character.
And so it's beautifully, I mean,Melanie is beautifully related
and she's certainly a sweet spotcompared to Scarlett.
So there's that.
Yeah.
But so we are, we've coveredlots of territory.
(37:51):
Um.
You know, we didn't actually doour character roulette, except
we did talk about Melanie, whichwas very interesting.
But is there anything else thatanyone would like to add about
any insight as far as Gone withthe Wind?
Anything that you feel likemaybe we didn't discuss that we
needed to?
Melissa (38:11):
Um, I read this several years ago and brushing up for
our little talk here.
I just kind of picked somepassages and went through them
and, if you took out alldialogue tags, you could tell
who's talking and her and thatwas it's interesting One of the
one a little lesson I got LouBernie he wrote The long and far
(38:36):
away gone was his kind of claimto fame here in Oklahoma Went to
a little seminar with him and itwas in 2016.
It was right About the time oflike Hillary and Trump were
debating and he said, thinkabout that if you just saw a
transcript with no, you know,with no dialogue tags, you would
(38:59):
know for sure which of those twopeople was talking and he said,
make that your goal, as awriter, that people can always
tell by the character's voiceand she does that so well She
does that so well, especiallyand also I just have to say
Clark Gable Just so in inhabited
Kat (39:24):
Rhett Butler
Micah (39:26):
She did she did she
Melissa (39:29):
yes she did she did but there is something about just
the very subtle I mean, we'renot here to talk about the
movie, but, um, there's justsomething that, I mean, there
was a little grin in so much ofwhat she wrote.
Just that little smirk, justthat little, uh, tease, a little
(39:51):
gleam in the character's eye.
And he did that really well, butshe wrote it first and she did a
great job.
Micah (39:59):
So I guess I just hope that all of us in our writing
can just get a little, littlebit of distraction of, of that,
of the great Margaret Mitchelland how she expressed that world
and those character, built thosecharacters.
Laurel (40:14):
Well, I, I think about, Donald Moss and writing, how to
write a breakout novel.
And he basically says, take yourstory, take your, take your
characters, especially, and thenamp them up.
About, you know, 15 degrees.
Okay, amp them up another Youknow, 30 will amp them up from
(40:34):
who they are so that they standout.
I think of what Kat said inVisceral Relief.
You know, that's what you wantyour characters to stand out.
And so, I mean, we can make likemoral things about, you know,
Melanie or this and that.
But really, she was a characterwell crafted.
Because she did what she wassupposed to do in the story.
And all
Micah (40:54):
of them did.
That's what it is.
All of them were so well crafted
Laurel (40:58):
so Wow Anyway, it's been so much fun ladies.
Kat (41:01):
It has!
Laurel (41:02):
I hope you all have enjoyed this riveting discussion
So thanks for joining us and besure to come back for the next
episode of stories that changeus
Hello, ladies, and welcome to our third episode of
the Stories That Change Uspodcast.
I'm thrilled because this weekwe're going to be discussing
that grand historical romance, asweeping Civil War epic, and
some would say a horribleapologetic for the slavery of
(00:22):
the South, Gone with the Wind byMargaret Mitchell.
I almost expect a response fromyou guys, but seriously.
Here are our novel stats forGone with the Wind.
Over 30 million copies sold in25 languages.
That's amazing.
(00:43):
It won a Pulitzer Prize in 1937,just one year after the book was
published.
And it features belovedcharacters of Scarlett O'Hara,
Rhett Butler, and Mammy.
and many more.
So today we're just going to bebreaking down some of the
elements, which is what we dofor Gone with the Wind, one of
(01:05):
our favorite historic epics.
So let's just start with what isour favorite quote in this very
large tome.
Micah (01:15):
Yes, yes,
Kat (01:16):
yes, this is, this is one of those books that I,
unapologetically say, is aweapon.
Like, can be weaponized at anymoment.
Throw it at somebody, smacksomebody with it.
It is a thick, heavy novel.
Laurel (01:33):
Okay, point
Kat (01:33):
taken.
Right, yeah, just suggestionsfor the audience.
Micah (01:37):
Alright, so I'll throw out there, this is Micah, and
I'll throw out, mine is againjust a really simple one.
Um, and there's so much going onin this novel, but I feel like
kind of of the heart of all ofit is the romance, and I love
the quote, you don't have tolike, you know, look it up or
write it down, you know it, it'slike, you should be kissed, and
often, by someone, and who knowshow.
(01:58):
By Rhett Butler.
I mean, everybody remembersthat, right?
You don't, like I say, you don'thave to like, look it up, and
it's like, don't we all justturn out.
Laurel (02:06):
Right there with Frankly, I don't give a damn.
Micah (02:10):
Right, you were afraid I was going to say that, right?
So, I, again, I feel like thatthat is the, there's so many
things that appeal in thisstory, but it's the romance.
It's the romance that, like,draws us in and makes this such
a beloved story.
Kat (02:24):
And it's the romance of a strong man to a strong woman.
Right?
Micah (02:29):
Yes.
Um, yes.
Kat (02:30):
And I would say that neither Rhett Butler nor
Scarlett O'Hara are moralcharacters to aspire to, but
they paint such a great pictureof how does a strong man woo a
strong woman?
How does a strong woman respondto a strong man?
And what are the, what are thepros and cons of this kind of
(02:51):
relationship?
I, that, that to me is whatmakes me melt about that.
You know, you should be kissedenough often by someone who
knows how is because we strongwomen, that's what we want.
We just are sometimes.
To self conscious or honestlytoo afraid of abusers taking
advantage of that to say, yes,please kiss me until I don't
know my name, right?
Micah (03:13):
That is an interesting thing about Rhett nobody's
talking about Rhett Butler'shigh moral integrity, and yet,
we are still unapologeticallyswooning over this man.
Kat (03:26):
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
Micah (03:26):
So, I, I think I'm gonna, Scarlett, again, nobody's
holding her up as the echelon ofmoral integrity.
And yet, she is beloved.
One of the most memorable andbeloved characters in...
You know, American literature,for sure.
Laurel (03:41):
It's very funny to me because here's my quote.
This is Scarlett.
If only she wasn't having ababy.
Here was a God given opportunityto ride out to the mill with
Ashley every day, through thelonely woods, far from the
prying eyes.
They could imagine the unhurrieddays before the war.
(04:02):
And then, of course, she saysshe's not going to talk about
loving him, because, you know,they'll have to run.
But, I'm like, seriously! Ifonly I wasn't having a baby!
Melissa (04:13):
Well, I have to say, this is Melissa, and my favorite
quote is also a, a rep quote andit is, Dear Scarlett, you aren't
helpless.
Anyone as selfish and determinedas you are is never helpless.
And I just love it.
It encapsulates both hercharacter, because she is
(04:33):
selfish and determined, but alsohis because he calls her out.
I mean, that's what we loveabout him is that he sees her
darkest truth and calls her outon it, but still seems to like
her.
I mean, it's kind of amazing.
Micah (04:53):
See, once again, Melissa, I think you hit the nail on the
head, right?
What do we love about Rhett?
Like, he sees her.
He is not fooled like all theseother men who are fooled by her
charms and her manipulations.
It's like, Rhett sees her andloves her anyway.
Isn't that what we all want?
Right.
Yeah.
Laurel (05:12):
Well, and it would be my argument that Rhett does have
integrity because he's not boundby social mores.
And so much of what is drivenin, Scarlet's culture is social
mores that are being smashed inthe gut, you know.
And here we have Rhett, who'snot bound in any way by those,
(05:35):
who just speaks the truth.
Micah (05:37):
So I guess that's a, when I say integrity, I guess what I
was really thinking about wasself sacrifice.
And that's what, you know, othercharacters might have, that
Rhett does not.
There's integrity, frankness.
True.
But then, he is not, he is justlike Scarlet.
Out for Rhett.
Melissa (05:57):
He's a benefit opportunist.
Micah (05:58):
Yes.
Laurel (05:59):
Well, because he'd be used to the hilt by Scarlet
Kat (06:03):
But also I think that, you know, the thing that I love most
about Rhett is, for all of hiscalling her out, I think that,
you know, and he says this toScarlet, he's like, we're one of
a kind, like we are alike.
But in being alike, he alsorecognizes the soft, tender
places and maybe even themotivations, that might be
worthy, that are drivingScarlett.
(06:24):
Yeah.
Um, because I think today, asmuch as Scarlett is so selfish
and she's so, you know, stubbornthat we miss that most of what
she does is for the security ofher family.
Right?
And we miss that.
And we miss that becausebetween...
Laurel (06:40):
I missed that.
Micah (06:41):
I don't miss that
Kat (06:42):
now.
Okay, I was like, what?
Between, you know, marrying yoursister's beau and using these
men like they're yo yos, right?
At the end of the day,especially towards the second
half of the novel, she very muchcould have said, I'm only
worried about my security and somy family can go, you know, bite
it.
But everything she does isabout...
(07:03):
It's about money for the familyand it's about money.
It's securing this land, right?
And I think that, that Rhett,even if Scarlet doesn't want to
admit that there's a soft tenderthing to be acknowledged and,
tended to, I think Rhett can seethat.
And it's, I think it's probablythe redeeming quality about
Scarlet that Rhett is probablyin his head thinking.
(07:25):
At least I like to think Rhettis in his head thinking.
He's like, if I can become oneof Scarlet's soft, tender
things, I will have a fiercewarrior at my side, who will
have been worth the chase.
Micah (07:35):
I love that.
Kat (07:36):
That's what I think.
That's what I think.
Laurel (07:38):
That's very sweet.
I love that.
Micah (07:40):
Laurel's like, that's very sweet, but I don't buy it.
Kat (07:43):
I don't buy it at all.
Laurel (07:45):
Well, I mean, and we won't go here yet, but I think
that the whole theme is aboutchange.
And, you know, how people fightfor the past and how Scarlet is
fighting for the past.
with all that is within her.
Kat (07:59):
I disagree.
Laurel (08:00):
Okay, alright.
Kat (08:03):
Fighting for the past and perceptions of the past actually
leads really well into my quote.
Um, my name is Kat Lewis, by theway, and this is a quote from
Ashley, who is one of my leastfavorite characters in this
novel, but Ashley says, PerhapsI want the old days back again,
and they'll never come back, andI am haunted by the memory of
them, and of the world fallingabout my ears.
(08:26):
And I, this quote was reallypowerful to me because I think
that in a post pandemic world,there's a lot of people who feel
like the old world is nevercoming back.
And they feel like they feellike they're continually
reaching for the ghost of thisthing.
And to me, the juxtaposition is,Ashley is pining for the old
world and Scarlet is firmly,eyes fixed ahead towards this
(08:49):
new thing, right?
And while she might miss the oldworld, she is like, I see too
many opportunities, right?
Melissa (08:56):
She's too pragmatic.
Laurel (08:57):
She is the ultimate pragmatic woman, yes.
Micah (09:02):
I think that that is really interesting.
And you say, like, the pandemic,which of course we can feel that
now, but I think that's...
It's universal.
I feel like every singlegeneration longs for this, you
know, you know, we talk aboutthe lost cause myth of the
South.
And of course this epic just is,you know, the poster child for
(09:23):
that, right?
Melissa (09:23):
Yeah.
Micah (09:24):
It better than anything else, explains and brings us
into that world and helps us tounderstand it, which is one of
the reasons why I think again,it's popularity and it's
longevity.
But I think there's a little bitof all of us.
That universality that we allknow what it's like to long for
a better time or our, ourperceived perception of what was
(09:47):
a better time.
That's good.
And I do think too that, youknow, you're exactly right that
Ashley absolutely personifiesthat he personifies the old
South in this novel.
And that's actually why, I don'tknow about you guys, but we hate
that about Scarlet.
Like, why are you hanging on toAshley?
(10:07):
Like, why do you have thisfixation with him?
Like, it's, like you said aboutthe baby, like, oh my gosh,
woman, let it go! Can't you seethat you have, you know, Rhett
in front of you.
Melissa (10:22):
So Scarlet does personified in Ashley, she does
have like a romanticism towardthe past, just a little bit.
I mean, if we follow theanalogy, the way she's been
pining for him, it's almost likeit's, it's never been a reality.
Laurel (10:42):
Bingo.
That's the theme.
You know, that's where it is.
It is a myth.
And I think, you know, well,Melissa and I were talking
earlier about, massive change inour lives.
And how do we, how do wenavigate massive change?
For one thing, we like the oldbecause we know how to deal with
(11:03):
it.
And yet there is a myth here andit is a strong myth.
And how much does that reallygrab our culture and keep us in
places that really resists theright kind of change.
But of course, anyway.
Let's not go there quite yet.
What I would like to ask next iswhat would you consider a moment
of no return in the book?
(11:25):
A moment that stands out withvisceral relief and how did that
impact the character's movement,personal journey, and influence
the story as a whole?
Micah (11:36):
Well, this is Micah and I would say for me, the I guess I
always go to the obvious pointof no return is whenever she
goes back and is hungry and sheclaws in the dirt with her
fingernails and digs up, Iforget whether it was radishes
or potatoes or something on theground and stuffs them in her
mouth and then wretches because,you know, she can't.
(11:59):
You know, her stomach can'tstand it and she, holds up her
fist to the sky and says as Godis my witness, I will never go
hungry again.
And it's just like, I will kill,I will, well she does.
You know, I will, I will marry,I will do whatever it takes to
survive.
Like, gone is the 16 year old.
Melissa (12:22):
Life is not a game anymore.
Micah (12:23):
You know, it's like, I am going to do this I'm a survivor
right.
And what she's seeing all aroundher like we'll get into this
later you know like like Melanieor Ashley or you know, all these
other southern ladies andgentlemen.
They're not survivors.
They're like, I'm not willing todo what it takes.
I'll just, I'll just go, I'lljust go with, go with the wind.
(12:44):
And she's like, no, not me.
Melissa (12:46):
I love that.
Yeah.
I love that.
Kat (12:47):
Wow.
That's powerful.
I just got chills.
Laurel (12:51):
It is.
And I think that's what we loveabout Scarlet, you know, because
she does say, look, I've made avow here in how powerful the vow
is to propel you either in theright direction or in the wrong
direction.
But basically, yeah, that wouldbe visceral relief.
(13:13):
Melissa, what about you?
Melissa (13:15):
Well, I think that when Scarlett dances with Rhett at
that, is it a fundraiser?
She, I think that...
She's like, he, I think maybeshe saw him as like, just a
little partner in crime.
You know, somebody who, let'sflaunt the silly rules of
(13:39):
decorum together.
Come on, let's do it.
Let's
Kat (13:42):
That's such a good perspective, Melissa.
And I would actually agree withyou that that's a really strong
emotional turning point.
Melissa (13:48):
Right.
Kat (13:49):
Because she does, she finds a companion and she sees the
world for what it is.
Melissa (13:54):
That's right.
Kat (13:55):
And even though she's like, I will never desire you, so
spend your, you know, wishingwell pennies on something else,
right?
I do think that she goes fromseeing him as this rake to be
despised to, this
Melissa (14:09):
He understands her.
Kat (14:10):
Partner.
Yeah,
Micah (14:11):
so an equal.
Like no one is her equal.
Melissa (14:14):
That's right.
An equal and somebody that shecan relate to when everybody
else is going with the wind.
Yeah.
Kat (14:23):
I would say that a point of no return, another Scarlet and
there's so many moments ofScarlet and these men.
But, is when, Ashley comes backhome from war and he and Scarlet
have this little interlude outin one of the field sheds where
he finally admits to Scarlet andsays, I love you, but there's
(14:44):
nothing we can do about it.
And I saw that as a point of noreturn because I saw Scarlet
turning back to some oldmentalities.
From this climax of, we willnever be hungry again, right?
And the shedding of this oldself, right?
I saw the old self returning inthis scene in a way that haunts
her through the rest of thebook.
(15:05):
If she could have said, In thatmoment, he is part of the old
thing, and he's proven that he'sloyal to this, weak wisp of a
woman, um, if she could have, ifshe could have had that
mentality.
I think that the book would havebeen different in so many
different, in so many ways, butI saw that as the, the old self
bringing, bringing itself backinto the forefront.
(15:29):
And it's just, to me, it wassuch a good reminder of always
being aware of the old thingthat you have laid down
Laurel (15:36):
Well, and of course, I think, you know, the whole
obsession with Ashley kind ofgoes with the whole myth, um,
that, wow, of what she believedthat he was, the mythical
qualities of Ashley were notenduring at all, which I think
is like a little personalexample of, of the South and the
(15:57):
mores of the South.
I mean, I love the South.
I spent a lot of summers in theSouth, but the mores that held
it together, we're not going toendure.
And they were built, they werebuilt on a myth just as surely
as Ashley is built on a myth.
Kat (16:15):
Well, and we can't talk about the myth that it was built
on without saying that, like,the reason those mores could not
have stood is because all ofthese things were built on the
backs of slavery of really likethe probably, um, you know, uh,
for American culture, a prettyheinous.
and system, right?
Micah (16:35):
And some would argue it's more heinous and, you know, and
of course slavery is alwaysheinous and we know it exists
today.
But there's a lot of things thatare uniquely heinous about the
American institution of slavery.
And how partially how it was,celebrated almost like protected
and, and, um, and,
Melissa (16:53):
preacher said it was the right thing.
Micah (16:55):
It was even, yeah, even like the churches, you know,
churches protecting it say, oh,this is how things should be
instead of.
This is just pragmatic.
This is just what we have to do.
There has to be winners andlosers when we take over a
culture and we're going to makeall the people are slaves now,
or there's a debt and you owe memoney.
So now you're my slave versuslike systematically, enslaving a
(17:17):
whole race of people andseparating families and just all
of the
Kat (17:22):
right.
So, so absolutely to that point,like that's.
It could not have stood, right?
Even though the greatestcritique of this book is this
kind of glamorous over the top,you know, you know, nostalgic
view of the South, right?
I
Laurel (17:37):
think it was pretty clear.
I mean, the whole, to me, whatstruck me about the novel was
that the clarity of.
Showing what the culture waslike in the South and how it was
stratified and how when the warcame, I mean, it was awful, but
the aftermath was equally awfulwhen nobody knew anymore,
Kat (18:02):
where are the social boundaries, political boundaries
and yeah, and
Laurel (18:08):
really Rhett it.
I think comes out as a hero inmany ways because he navigates
that with an honest eye andreally with courage.
Um, but it going to the story, Imean, if this big story hadn't
been cloaked, or if the bighistory hadn't been cloaked by a
(18:28):
story, it wouldn't have had theimpact.
And so for me, the most, theturning point was really when
Bonnie died and Rhett at thatpoint.
I realized oh This is a tragedyit's a tragedy and then I was
like, okay now, I know how it'sgonna end
Kat (18:47):
Wow honestly, that, that I would say is the emotional
turning point of the story,100%, because Scarlett and Rhett
don't come back from that.
Like, they...
You know, they, there were someother moments where Scarlett
left or Rhett was like, I'm sickof this affair with Ashley, that
they managed to kind of likecome back together as a unit,
but Bonnie's death really diddestroy whatever it was that
(19:11):
they had built.
Micah (19:12):
And Rhett just clearly lays that out.
He says it, you know, pointblank.
He says, if there was any hopefor us, you know, it died at
that point.
Laurel (19:20):
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
And it's interesting becauseRhett realizes that Scarlet, of
course, is clueless.
Kat (19:30):
Well, talking about, talking about...
clinging to the old thing.
I, I do think that, that Rhett'sdownfall with Scarlet is
clinging to this old hope thatthis woman would change, right?
And for all the reasons that heloved her and all the things
about Scarlet that neverchanged, those are the very
things that destroyed theirlove.
(19:51):
And so as much as I can sit hereand judge Ashley for
representing the old thing, andrepresenting the old South and
these old mentalities, Rhettsuccumbed to the very same thing
where he was like, I was hopingthat that 16 year old, selfish,
self centered, obstinate womanwould have changed over all this
time.
It would have changed for me.
And she just doesn't.
And you know, and she even endsthe novel kind of wiser, more
(20:14):
mature.
Micah (20:15):
I don't know.
You can't say she doesn'tchange.
I mean, really.
I mean, think about that.
That, that 16 year old changesdramatically.
Melissa (20:22):
She changes.
Her, her pragmatism sets on adifferent target.
Her,
Kat (20:28):
That's a great way to say it.
Melissa (20:29):
At the beginning of the novel, at the beginning of the
novel, it's about having everyboy in the room like her.
It's about having everyconversation be about her.
And then at the end of thenovel, it's about feeding
people, including herself.
But her heart doesn't change.
She stays this child.
Laurel (20:52):
Well, and it's interesting, she has, like,
toward the end, unless we knowScarlet at this point, we don't
realize how significant it is,she has regrets.
And she doesn't know what to dowith regret.
And she finally just says, I'llthink about it tomorrow.
Melissa (21:10):
So, she has a little glimmer of hope of,
Micah (21:14):
A little self recollection of a little of,
yeah.
Melissa (21:17):
Yes.
Laurel (21:18):
Very, very brief.
And then she says,, I've alwaysbeen able to win a man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like, totally clueless.
Melissa (21:27):
A moment of self awareness
Kat (21:30):
I can't remember.
I do think that there's a sequelfloating around out there where
she does win Rhett back.
Oh! And I think that ruins thewhole premise of novel!
Melissa (21:38):
I was gonna say, Margaret Mitchel would be like,
no, no, no, no, no.
Laurel (21:42):
Well, so if we took two characters, from the book and
discovered, I talked about powerdynamics, which, of course,
we've been doing that a lot.
Actually, which 2 people wouldyou choose?
And how would you say that thereare power dynamics that we see
in the novel?
Micah (22:00):
Okay, I'm going to do a Kat here and take a really kind
of.
Seemingly small side characters.
And I think it's reallyinteresting about Prissy and
Scarlet.
Remember Prissy, who was thelittle, um,
Kat (22:16):
house servant, house slave,
Micah (22:18):
right.
Um, during when Melanie ishaving her baby and everybody
remembers just like theinfuriating way that.
She took her time, you know,doing what she wanted to do and
Scarlet was, literally slaps heracross the face.
(22:38):
But I just think it'sinteresting, the dynamic, uh, I
think it's, I don't know, I justthink it's really interesting.
Because Scarlet's the master.
She should be able to tell herwhat to do.
Or she thinks she should be ableto tell her what to do and that
she should just do it.
And Rissy is just not gonna doit.
And she's...
You know, going to do her ownthing and do what she wants.
(23:00):
And I just think that that, youknow, you talk about the back
and forth of like, Oh, you hadthe power.
Now I have the power.
Now you have the power, youknow?
So in this moment of crisis.
Like,
Kat (23:12):
I don't, I see what you're saying, Micah.
I don't know if Prissy's a greatexample.
Because Prissy has alwaysactually struck me as being on
the spectrum.
Okay.
I'm dead, dead serious when Isay that.
And so I'm like, I, that wouldsuck to be an autistic African
trying to navigate thishorrible, horrible system.
But I think that same powerdynamic exists between Scarlett
(23:35):
and Mammy.
Yeah, yeah.
It's very interesting how Mammycan manipulate Scarlet, right?
I think about that very firstscene where Scarlet's determined
to go to this barbecue nothaving eaten.
And Mammy is like, over my deadbody, and Mammy knows, knows the
buttons to twist, right?
You know, and Mammy's insistenceto go with her, to Atlanta.
(23:56):
And it's like, if, if Scarlet'sthe true, true master here,
Mammy should be able, she shouldbe able to say, you're not
going, and that's it.
Laurel (24:05):
You know, it's interesting, Kat, that you said
that because Mammy is the oneshe wants to run back to at the
end.
Kat (24:11):
You know what?
I was reading this veryinteresting article talking
about how, How it was the slavegovernesses and, and nurse maids
who really showed affection tochildren versus their actual
parents who were so used tobeing harsh and abusive, right?
(24:35):
That they couldn't be loving totheir own children.
And so these kids really were,really saw these, this house
staff.
Laurel (24:42):
Well, they had their hands on.
Kat (24:44):
They did.
They did.
And so we kind of see that, thatkind of.
Daughterly maternal thing with,I think, Scarlet and Mammy in a
different kind of way.
Very strong.
Micah (24:54):
Well, I think there's two things there.
Well, one of them is, it remindsme of, like, actually between
men and women.
People talk a lot of time about,you know, man and household.
And it's like, oh, it's like theman is the head, but the woman's
the neck.
Like the sides, which way thehead is going to turn.
And that's what kind of remindsme of like Mammy, like Mammy is
going to get Scarlett to do whatshe wants versus the other way
around because she's the neck.
(25:16):
Right.
Yeah.
So that dynamic, but then also Ithink that, what you say is very
true about, the house servantsbeing the ones who showed the
affection and you see that inThe Help, right.
Where that was, that was really,and that, and that was a little
bit controversial too, but thisidea of.
The black maid showing the loveto the little girl.
Laurel (25:37):
They were the hands on.
They got them up in the morningand changed their diapers and
made sure they were fed.
You know, to a child, that'slove.
Right.
So.
Kat (25:47):
But also, talking about like the, the morales of the
South that caused it to crumble.
You cannot dedicate your days.
To master mentality and then,and then turn it off when you
get home.
Right.
Like you can't.
So if we talk about like the,the, the power of the family
unit, it was already tainted.
It was already crumbling.
Micah (26:07):
I love that.
I went.
I went to D.
C.
with my son, like, a couplemonths ago, and there's like
this monument to George Mason,one of the forgotten Founding
Fathers, right?
Like, George Mason, like, who'she?
But there's this monument thatpeople kind of forget, like,
wedged in between FDR andJefferson, and, there was this
quote there about, and it wasagainst slavery, again, thinking
(26:30):
about a man ahead of his time,but it was talking about how, I
mean, obviously it's, it's acrime against humans, but it's
also a crime against their ownhumanity.
So, again, that's why I thinkyou're saying there, Kat, like,
you can't do this to otherpeople and it not irreparably
harm your own heart and soul.
Kat (26:50):
Absolutely.
Laurel (26:51):
That's good.
Melissa (26:51):
I loved the power dynamic between Scarlet and
Melanie
Micah (26:56):
oh, interesting
Melissa (26:57):
because, because Melanie of course she's the
object of Scarlet's fiery wrathbecause she wins Ashley, but,
um,
Micah (27:09):
well, not just because she wins, Ashley, but because
she's so undeserving inScarlett's eyes.
Yes, yes, exactly.
You're going to choose her?
Mealy Mallet?
Nothing?
Instead
Kat (27:19):
of me?
Why?
Melissa (27:21):
And, but then, I just, one of the most visceral scenes
is when, Melanie is stillrecovering from childbirth and
a, union soldier comes in andwants to rob them.
And Scarlett kills him.
And that is a turning point.
Micah (27:36):
No, Melanie kills.
Melissa (27:37):
No.
Scarlett shoots him.
But Melanie is.
Holding up that big, huge swordlike she would have tried.
She would have,
Micah (27:47):
but she wasn't strong enough.
Melissa (27:48):
She wasn't, but she was, she was exerting it in it.
In other words, it was in herheart.
Kat (27:56):
She had that same heart of valor of
Melissa (27:59):
I'm going to jump in and protect here.
I'm going to go down.
Yeah, I'll go down fighting.
That's right.
And that was, There were so manymoments where Scarlet had to
give Melanie the scrudgingrespect.
And that is the first, or Ithink it's the first.
Kat (28:17):
You know, and what I love about the power dynamic between
Scarlet and Melanie, is I seeMelanie as Scarlet's mother
reincarnate.
And so for Scarlet to havevalued her mother's...
Piety and devotion and kindnessand compassion.
All of those things that we seein Melanie, right?
(28:40):
Um, and Scarlet views Melaniewith such contempt and just kind
of like, bleh.
I, you know, um, it'sinteresting how Scarlet cannot
see that Melanie literally couldhave been her mother's protégé.
And How did Scarlet miss that?
And Scarlet bemoans in herself,she's like, I wish I was more
(29:00):
like my mother, right?
My mother is looking down fromheaven and just is horrified.
And I'm like, have you looked inat Melanie's eyes lately?
Is she my queen?
She's gonna cover it up.
Micah (29:08):
No, Melanie wasn't covering up.
She genuinely loved Scarlet.
She really did.
She wasn't secretly disdainfulof Scarlet.
No, no.
She, she saw Scarlet's strengthand she knew its value and she
loved Scarlet.
Melissa (29:21):
It was almost like, it was one of those things that
could have gone either way whereMelanie genuinely loving Scarlet
could have made Scarlett hateher even more.
It's like, how can you be sogood to like me, even though I
hate you?
Laurel (29:38):
Even at the end, Rhett goes to Melanie and basically
spills his guts.
And Melanie, she just, la la la,I can't hear this, I don't
believe this.
And you know, basically he'stelling her everything.
Because she is the lone person,other than Belle, we don't know
(30:00):
Belle that well, that Rhett canactually cry out to.
And, um, so it's so interestingthat Melanie just cannot see.
Micah (30:12):
The bad side.
Laurel (30:13):
She can't see the bad side.
Kat (30:14):
I do think that Melanie chooses not to see, though.
Because, you know, there's thatmoment when, when Rhett makes
Scarlet go to Ashley's birthdayparty after she's been caught
red handed kissing, making outwith, you know, Ashley.
And, Melanie...
Has such, um, to me, she's gotsuch a forbearance and such a
(30:35):
maturity that she's like, y'allmight be surprised, but like, I
have eyes, I see this tensionhere, and for whatever Melanie's
reasons were for not shankingScarlett at the first, at the
first moment.
And for whatever reason, Melaniechooses love or she chooses to
look the other way.
Or she chooses, maybe she'slike, Maybe, I don't, I mean, I
(30:58):
don't know.
There's so many, we could spenda whole hour on Melanie.
Laurel (31:01):
So are you saying, so are you saying that Melanie is
unique?
Uh, our original aspect of Gonewith the Wind,
Kat (31:08):
just, just like what we were saying about, I think it
was Outlander, how the worlditself is so fraught with
conflict that you, she, so shechose a really great world to
throw these characters in, butevery character is so complex,
right?
So
Micah (31:27):
I think what's so unique about Gone with the Wind is what
you just said.
It's the world.
It's the authenticity.
It's a recreating of this world.
Because again, lots of peoplehave written lots of historical
fiction, historical romance, butMargaret Mitchell recreated for
us this world of the pre CivilWar and post Civil War past that
(31:53):
was just so...
compelling and so authentic tothe time.
So I think that's, again, that'swhat I think is the stories that
change us.
Bridgerton will never do itbecause,
Kat (32:07):
because they're just, they're just putting, you
Micah (32:09):
know, like, our world into another time and put
rewriting the names and insteadof recreating the thought
processes and helping us to seethat.
So I think that's what is uniqueand what's really hard to do and
which, Probably no one else, Iwould say, has done even close
to as well as well as Gone WithThe Wind,
Kat (32:28):
and that's, that's such a beautiful, um, a beautiful point
in favor of this book.
Because it's that very thing,the fact that Margaret Mitchell
is writing from a nostalgicpoint of view.
She's like, this is a worldthat's dead and will never come
back.
And we're gonna, we will neverregain this lush, opulent,
sweeping, charismatic world.
(32:50):
And a lot of people reallydespise her for it because
they're like, yeah, this lushsweeping opulent world that was
built on the back of slavery.
And here's the deal.
I think that in order to not goback to those mentalities, you
have to know exactly what itlooked like.
You need it and and all thisvisceral color in order to one,
understand that mentality.
(33:11):
So we don't accidentally.
Trip our way back to it.
Micah (33:13):
Exactly.
That's exactly right Kat.
I mean like if, it's so easy forus to look back and say how
could they have done this?
Like, oh, I would never do that.
Like, oh, they must have been soevil.
Laurel (33:24):
Exactly.
Micah (33:25):
And instead of saying like, oh, no, this is what it
looked like.
Look, look how romantic andappealing it was.
Do you see now?
Like again, the danger of howyou could fall into that same
Laurel (33:37):
Well, and I think it's what makes it the I mean, as a
purist for historical fiction,it's just, it's just one of the
best because she's not preachingone way or the other.
She's telling a story and it'sintricately woven not only
authentic setting, but authenticpeople.
(33:59):
And even with Melanie, I justdon't feel like she's trying
heavy handedly preaching to usabout, you know, Melanie's
sweetness, because really to me,if we're just going to pick out
our little character rouletteperson, I mean, Melanie, to me,
I got frustrated with her.
I was like, seriously, girl, butshe was there for a reason.
(34:23):
She was a mirror.
To reflect Scarlet and viceversa.
I mean, they were two charactersthat absolutely had to be there.
We did not see, I mean, we saw,um, Scarlet's pragmatism in a
lot of ways, but when it wasagainst Melanie.
It was like polar opposite here.
(34:44):
And, and the funny thing isusually I would, you know, I'd
be like, Scarlet, quit beingsuch a, you know, whatever.
But I got irritated withMelanie.
I really did.
Micah (34:56):
When did you get it irritated?
I was like,
Laurel (34:58):
girl, girl, open your eyes.
I mean, are you such a romantic,such an idealist that even in
the end.
So I'm not saying that she's abad character, but in the end
when, when Rhett was justpouring out, I mean, he was
sobbing on her lap, pouring outall this junk.
(35:23):
She couldn't hear it.
She couldn't acknowledge it.
She couldn't do anything aboutit.
B a safe place, which she was,
Kat (35:34):
Okay.
So if we're going to use Melanieas our character that that we
talk about, as much as I canfault Ashley for his, ideology
for the Old South.
I think that from thisperspective, so too can we fault
Melanie for her loyal ideologytowards the new thing, the
potential of people.
(35:55):
Whatever, right?
Because I remember in the verybeginning of the book, you know,
when they, when, when they go totwelve oaks.
For the barbecue, whispers aboutMelanie and Melanie's family,
like they don't own a slaves.
Which just like establishesMelanie's character is like,
she's like, I am a humanitarian
Melissa (36:13):
she's above it.
Kat (36:14):
Yeah, she's above it.
Or maybe she just sees the evilfor what it is.
But it's that same ideology thatthat if at some point, Melanie
could have just had aconversation with Scarlett that
said.
Scarlet, I love you.
I respect you.
You're so amazing.
Leave my man alone.
Right?
There, there's an ideology thatMelanie
Laurel (36:44):
I won't cut you.
No, no, no, no.
Kat (36:45):
Laurel!
Laurel (36:46):
Sorry.
I'm just saying.
Kat (36:46):
But there's an ideology that ultimately she dies,
Melanie dies clinging to, thatcould have turned the story in a
different direction if MelanieFor whatever reason, had had the
power, the courage, theperspective to have said, no,
all these things are happeningunder my nose.
And as much as I am a pacifistand dah, dah, dah, dah, dah,
well, maybe not a pacifistbecause she was lugging around a
(37:06):
sword ready to chop somebody inhalf, you know, um, but I would
almost say that Melanie'sideology is what set these
characters on that path becauseMelanie was the turning point.
Melanie could have put a stop toit.
Melanie could have said, Ashley,you and I are moving out of
Atlanta because I know whatyou're doing with that woman,
right?
Um, but she didn't.
And so there's...
(37:28):
There's something to becritiqued there.
Laurel (37:30):
Well, I mean, I just think that, I mean, again, it's,
she's a layered character.
And so it's beautifully, I mean,Melanie is beautifully related
and she's certainly a sweet spotcompared to Scarlett.
So there's that.
Yeah.
But so we are, we've coveredlots of territory.
(37:51):
Um.
You know, we didn't actually doour character roulette, except
we did talk about Melanie, whichwas very interesting.
But is there anything else thatanyone would like to add about
any insight as far as Gone withthe Wind?
Anything that you feel likemaybe we didn't discuss that we
needed to?
Melissa (38:11):
Um, I read this several years ago and brushing up for
our little talk here.
I just kind of picked somepassages and went through them
and, if you took out alldialogue tags, you could tell
who's talking and her and thatwas it's interesting One of the
one a little lesson I got LouBernie he wrote The long and far
(38:36):
away gone was his kind of claimto fame here in Oklahoma Went to
a little seminar with him and itwas in 2016.
It was right About the time oflike Hillary and Trump were
debating and he said, thinkabout that if you just saw a
transcript with no, you know,with no dialogue tags, you would
(38:59):
know for sure which of those twopeople was talking and he said,
make that your goal, as awriter, that people can always
tell by the character's voiceand she does that so well She
does that so well, especiallyand also I just have to say
Clark Gable Just so in inhabited
Kat (39:24):
Rhett Butler
Micah (39:26):
She did she did she
Melissa (39:29):
yes she did she did but there is something about just
the very subtle I mean, we'renot here to talk about the
movie, but, um, there's justsomething that, I mean, there
was a little grin in so much ofwhat she wrote.
Just that little smirk, justthat little, uh, tease, a little
(39:51):
gleam in the character's eye.
And he did that really well, butshe wrote it first and she did a
great job.
Micah (39:59):
So I guess I just hope that all of us in our writing
can just get a little, littlebit of distraction of, of that,
of the great Margaret Mitchelland how she expressed that world
and those character, built thosecharacters.
Laurel (40:14):
Well, I, I think about, Donald Moss and writing, how to
write a breakout novel.
And he basically says, take yourstory, take your, take your
characters, especially, and thenamp them up.
About, you know, 15 degrees.
Okay, amp them up another Youknow, 30 will amp them up from
(40:34):
who they are so that they standout.
I think of what Kat said inVisceral Relief.
You know, that's what you wantyour characters to stand out.
And so, I mean, we can make likemoral things about, you know,
Melanie or this and that.
But really, she was a characterwell crafted.
Because she did what she wassupposed to do in the story.
And all
Micah (40:54):
of them did.
That's what it is.
All of them were so well crafted
Laurel (40:58):
so Wow Anyway, it's been so much fun ladies.
Kat (41:01):
It has!
Laurel (41:02):
I hope you all have enjoyed this riveting discussion
So thanks for joining us and besure to come back for the next
episode of stories that changeus
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.