February 13, 2024 • 41 mins
Charles Dicken's, A Christmas Carol, has resonated across the ages as a holiday favorite! Today, let's breakdown the iconic moments, characters, and themes to reveal where Dicken's excelled at the craft of storytelling that has perpetuated a deep love of this Yuletide tale.
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
https://instagram.com/storiesthat_changeus?igshid=eTlibmFxdXZmbXV5&utm_source=qr
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kat (00:01):
Well, welcome you guys to our sixth episode of Stories
That Change Us.
My name is Kat Lewis, and I ama, speaker and thriller author,
and I'm here with some of mywriter friends, to discuss that
Christmas classic, A ChristmasCarol.
by Charles Dickens., I'll behonest, I was not excited to
(00:23):
read this book.
Laurel (00:24):
You're so funny.
We think there must be ablasphemous term for you.
Kat (00:29):
I know, I know.
I realized the last few booksI've not been excited to read.
But you know, what's crazy is toread these books that have
generational significance reallydoes open your eyes to how and
why these authors.
Crafted these stories so well.
So, some fun facts about AChristmas Carol is I didn't
(00:49):
realize that it took only sixweeks to write.
For all of my friends who justgot done with National Novel
Writing Month, aka.
NaNoWriMo.
I'm sure you feel the pain andthe blood and the sleeplessness
of that.
But as Laurel, you were saying,Dickens was a working writer.
He was not this crafty enigmawho was, you know, in his
(01:14):
mansion, writing the things forthe heck of it.
This is how he put food on thetable.
And I think that that's actuallyreally relatable to us as modern
writers who, you know, we're notnecessarily doing this because.
To get these poignant ideas outto the world, although we want
the world to have these poignantideas.
We do.
We're, we're like, I mean, if wecan make money with it as well,
(01:35):
sure.
So, really cool, but also,Micah, one of the things that
you had just mentioned is thatThis novel has been adapted over
a hundred times in variousforms.
Movies, plays, spinoff stories.
Again, I'm shocked.
Um, but again, it just speaks tothe longevity of the story.
And apparently, apparently hedid something successfully.
Micah (01:58):
Well, it's really amazing if you think about it.
This is Micah Leidorf.
I'm I think it's amazing that acharacter that Dickens created
in this little, you know,comparatively to his novella,
compared to his other, you know,tomes of David Copperfield or
whatnot, of Scrooge isuniversally known and
(02:19):
understood.
So he did something right increating this character, um, and
I guess that's what we're goingto explore today in Stories That
Change Us and what theseStorytelling techniques and
tactics that he used.
Now, Melissa, you were the onewho suggested this book.
So
Kat (02:37):
why?
Why?
Why would you want me?
Melissa (02:49):
Um, I, I love it.
It's, it's, There's a reason ithas lasted for 150 years,
Kat (03:00):
did you suggest this book because it's one that you find
yourself perennially reachingfor?
Or did you suggest this bookbecause you kind of wanted to
dive in for yourself?
What is it about this story thathas made it a holiday favorite?
Melissa (03:12):
It's the, it's the, because I don't know how many
times I've read it and it stillmade me cry.
That is, that's why, and,
Micah (03:27):
If you guys could, if you could only see Cat's face, If
you could only see Cat's eyeroll,
Melissa (03:33):
She just lost all respect for me.
If she had any at all, it's gonenow.
Laurel (03:37):
No, you just turned it back on her.
Okay, where is your heart?
Melissa (03:41):
Where is your heart, Kat?
Can you really just see Tiny Timand not cry?
Laurel (03:46):
It's so funny.
Kat (03:47):
I will say, I did cry in the, the film adaptation that
was done.
What was it called?
Melissa (03:53):
The Muppet Movie.
Kat (03:54):
Oh no!
Laurel (03:58):
The Man Who Invented Christmas.
The Muppet Movie.
Kat (04:01):
I just got dissed by the Muppets over here.
Micah (04:05):
That's one of the most popular adaptations of the
Muppets Christmas Carol.
Kat (04:08):
No!
Micah (04:09):
Yes it is.
Kat (04:10):
From the film adaptation, The Man Who Invented Christmas,
I did actually cry looking atthe just kind of the
similarities between thecharacter's arc and his own arc.
I thought that was sobeautifully done and I just
thought, you know what, if itdoesn't matter to us as writers
It's not gonna matter to ourreaders.
And so while I haven't criedreading this story I do remember
(04:33):
saying man when you bleed on thepage There's just something
powerful about you know aboutbeing vulnerable enough to let
that happen.
And I think that we can say thatwith the books that we've read
so far, that there has been anelement of the author really
kind of opening up their soul.
On the page, and I wonder ifthat's one of those little
Micah (04:51):
And I would just say since especially our main
audience is writers If you havenot seen the movie The Man Who
Invented Christmas, you aremissing out.
You would love it It was madefor us.
Kat (05:02):
Go right now! And rented on Netflix.
Twice.
It's amazing.
Micah (05:06):
It is about the process of Dickens writing this book And
it shows probably better thanalmost any other Film depiction,
the writing process, it's like,Oh my gosh, I am seen.
It does.
Somebody understands me.
That's so good.
Laurel (05:24):
And you have to say that, you know, if you look at
character arc, would you saythere's a little bit of a
character arc in this story?
Kat (05:32):
You know, okay, so, you, I'm just saying, okay, let me
read you this statement.
There's such a severe characterarc in this.
Laurel (05:37):
Okay, I know, don't go there not yet.
Okay, here's his statement.
Okay, this is Scrooge.
Every idiot who goes about withMerry Christmas on his lips
should be boiled down with hisown pudding and buried with a
stake of holly through hisheart.
He should.
What's wrong with that, Kat?
Kat (05:56):
Well, it lets us know where he's at emotionally.
I'll tell you that.
No, Laurel, thank you for, youkind of launched us into our
first question, which is,"Whatis a quote that stood out to you
as an excellent example oftension, author's voice, or
character development"?
And without a doubt, thatstatement right there lets us
know where Scrooge is at withthe world, with himself, and it
(06:21):
does such a great, you know, jobof creating this backdrop.
For us to, to launch into thestory with.
So, Melissa, Micah, what else isa quote that stands out to you
as, high significance for thestory?
Micah (06:33):
Well, the quote I chose was not from Scrooge, but from
Marley, who is Scrooge's deadbusiness partner.
So he kind of sometimes gets ashort shrift because we think
about the three ghosts that cameto visit Scrooge, but we forget
that he was visited by Marley.
First, and Marley has these, um,he's covered in these chains,
and what, the quote I have is,"Imade it, link by link, and yard
(06:59):
by yard.
I girded it of my own free will,and my own free will, I wore it,
and by my own free will I woreit".
So, basically, you know, Marleycomes to warn Scrooge.
He comes out of friendship tosay, this is your chance, buddy.
Don't be like me.
And, in my own writing, as youguys know, I like, like a little
(07:20):
bit of the, um, that idea of,opening up our eyes to, to the
truth.
That by the deception, like hethinks he's building this life
for himself and he doesn'trealize that he is, enslaving
himself for eternity.
So, I liked that quote.
Kat (07:39):
Wow.
Melissa?,
Melissa (07:42):
Well, mine is from Bell, his fiance that breaks up
with him.
And when she does, I just feltlike it was, character
exposition, like developingScrooge's character.
I don't know if that, if thosetwo words go together or not,
but just, tells us somethingabout him that, um, she goes, I
(08:05):
release you with a full heartfor the love of him you once
were".
So it shows who he was in thepast.
It's a long passage, so I won'tread it all, but it's, about how
he's got a new love and thatlove is money and she says, I
can't compete with that, but, Ilove how she says, I release you
(08:28):
with remembering who you wereremembering the man I fell in
love with because it just showedthat, that he is redeemable,
that he did it once have aheart...
Kat (08:38):
and that no, I'll, I'll tell you what Dickens does
really, really well as far as,foreshadowing is he really
creates such a great skeleton ofthe Scrooge that was, and he
does a great job of creating alot of questions in the reader's
mind of how did we get to thispoint Scrooge?
Like, cause there's all theselittle touches, You weren't
(08:59):
always this money harboring, youknow, bitter, nasty, bent over
old man.
And he does a lot of great, youknow, there's all these little
hints of the life before.
And it kind of, to Micah'spoint, it draws you into this
question of, you know, how didhe get there?
And how, how do we as people getthere?
So,
Melissa (09:18):
Well, I think that, that this scene with Belle is
very much a, a crossroads forhim where he can say, I'm sorry,
I value you more than money.
I value relationships more thanmoney.
Or he can, close off that partof his heart.
And that probably was where hemay, you know, I can see the
(09:42):
character saying, okay, I'mgonna make a sharp turn to to
really embrace this mistressthat you have, that you think
I've chosen, I'm really going tochoose it.
And I'm going to try to find mycomfort there.
Kat (09:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Name a moment in the story thatstands out with visceral relief
and explain the storytellingtechniques that the writer used
to make this a successful scene?
Micah (10:08):
So I'm just gonna go with the super obvious.
I mean, you know, again, if theonly version of this movie that
you've ever seen is the, youknow, the Muppets version.
It doesn't really matter,whatever version it is.
Kat (10:19):
Millennials have only seen the Muppets version of Micah.
Micah (10:22):
You, everybody knows Tiny Tim.
Everybody can remember the lastscene where, you know, he goes,
you know, opens the windows, youknow.
Celebrates, you know, lifts himup on his shoulder.
Now, but why does that scenehave so much power?
It's because it's basically, itfeels like the whole story's
(10:44):
been building up to that moment,right?
Like every single quote from thequote you first said, which,
okay, you're gonna stick theholly in his heart.
Okay, he's gonna, he's gonnacircle back.
So as authors, a lot of times, Idon't know if there's like a
what the rule is in stone, butbasically it's the idea that
usually you want your openingcredit to match your closing.
So you want to, you know, startwhere you finished and you know
(11:07):
what they, and so that's exactlywhat we do.
We have him, you know, justbeing so miserly, so cold to
being just the exact opposite toembracing this little boy, you
know, instead of saying, Whereare the workhouses?
You know, where are the, youknow, the poor houses?
Do, do they not, do they nothave prisons anymore?
(11:27):
Like, that's where the poorpeople should go.
To instead saying, okay, I'mgoing to do everything I can in
lavish.
So again, I, so I, that's the,Obvious scene to me.
I go for the obvious.
Kat (11:38):
Well, mimic the, the technique that you're referring
to here, Micah, there's thisidea that, um, at some point you
want, or, you know, you wantyour hero to identify the little
boy or little girl that oncewas, and you want to give that,
that person like a moment toreally come forth and shine.
(11:59):
And like, that's where like thehealing happens and all things.
So I think that Dickens does agreat job of Literally, if
Scrooge is this hurt little boywho was poor and struggled, Tiny
Tim is like the redeemed aspectof that and I think that's why
it's so triumphant for Scrooge,is he's like, Oh, I've, I've
regained my youthfulness.
I've regained that innocentperspective of the world that I
(12:21):
had lost scrounging.
And I think that's why thatscene is so powerful.
What else?
What other scenes stand out?
Laurel (12:29):
Yeah, I mean, Save the Cat talks about the opening
image and the final image.
I think it's Save the Cat.
But it, you know, basically thatcontrast of, you know, Marley is
so important that he comesfirst.
Because he states the wholedirection of the novel.
It's like, look, you are addingevery link to that chain.
(12:53):
It was so cool when Marley wascoming into the house because he
hears him open the door and hehears him walking up the stairs
and the clank of that, thosechains that, you know, Marley
had, but you know, it, what Iremember is you build the links.
We built the links for our ownlives.
(13:14):
Will they be chains or willthere be like in the final image
generosity?
And open hands and open arms tolife and to people and to what
matters, basically.
Micah (13:27):
So, Laurel, you referred to the book, Save the Cat, which
for those who don't know is avery famous and very, excellent.
Guide for screenwritersscreenwriters and also the Save
The Cat Writes A Novel so forbooks But the concept is that in
early in the story The maincharacter does something like
(13:47):
saves a cat that kind of cluesyou in to who like So what do
you think was the save the cat?
Is that what you read?
I felt like that was what you'rereferring to
Laurel (13:55):
No, I was like, okay.
Oh like the opening image andthe final image, okay are like
contrasts.
Yes.
But it's so important thatthey're shown and not said.
Kat (14:05):
So I'm a big, chiastic structure girl.
Basically, it's the structurethat C.
S.
Lewis used to create Chroniclesof Narnia.
It's the structure that J.
K.
Rowling used to create, HarryPotter.
And, she says that in chiasticstructure, the opening image and
the final image are mirrors ofeach other, right?
They're not contrasts, they'reexact mirrors.
(14:26):
So, you know, and we can evensee this in, like, most clearly,
I think, in Chronicles ofNarnia, where, like, we start
the journey in the wardrobe andwe end the book with Lucy trying
to get back to Narnia throughthe wardrobe.
Like, it's a, it's this fullpicture of this Journey that's
been complete.
So I mean just just food forthought like
Laurel (14:46):
but often often opening and final image can show
character arc in a big way.
Oh, yeah So, you know the wholefact that we're seeing tiny Tim
embraced and held up on you knowScrooge's shoulders that That
was what I was talking about.
So it, it, it is a mirror.
It is a situation, but itreflects transformation.
(15:09):
Yeah.
If there's a positive characterarc.
And again, you know, Save theCats, not the only craft book in
the world.
So it's just a, it's a cooltechnique that you can use and
it can be effective.
Melissa (15:19):
It's a short story.
It was written as a commentaryon the time where the wide gulf
between the people who had moneyand the people who were poor
and, Dickens himself, his familywas poor and he had experience
with his father was sent todebtor's prison and, he had to
(15:45):
quit school because of that.
So he is writing something thathe feels very passionately
about.
But, in his, um, hisconversation with Marley,
Scrooge says,"But you werealways a good man of business,
Jacob".
And"Business," cried the ghost,mankind was my business.
(16:06):
The common welfare was mybusiness, charity, mercy,
forbearance, and benevolencewere all my business.
The dealings of my trade werebut a drop of water in the
comprehensive ocean of mybusiness".
And I loved how he, veryquickly, you know, it's a short
work, very quickly got the,theme out.
(16:26):
Obviously, you know, veryobvious, but at least he did it,
you know, through the mouth of aghost.
You know, he did it in a waythat was action and that,
actually I liked that.
Micah (16:38):
I think I'm, I'm know, I'm probably skipping ahead a
little bit, but you know, welike to talk about what the
authors do, does extremely well,and that's what I think Dickens
does extremely well is and whythis may be part of why this
story.
Is, been told so many times thisperennial popularity is that is
so original.
It doesn't seem original to usnow because we've seen it a
(17:00):
hundred times, but this way oftelling where you have this
ghost and the past and presentand future, it's so original.
It's so different thateveryone's like, Oh yeah, let's
copy that.
That like that, you know, it's,it's succinct, it's short, but
it conveys this huge message.
It gives all this opportunityto, to tell about, you know, His
(17:20):
beginning life and his end lifejust in such a, entertaining and
succinct way.
Like, I mean, it's fromeverything from the Muppets to,
I don't know if you saw theGhost of Girlfriends past was
Matthew McConaughey, right?
So, when somebody does somethingthat was really original, then
everybody else copies it, butyou forget how original it was.
(17:42):
Um, in the beginning.
So that's what I think he did sowell here.
Kat (17:47):
Yeah.
Well, let's pivot and let's gothere.
What aspects of this book,revealed or introduced or helped
you relearn an element ofstorytelling craft, that just
really, really stood out to you?
And I'll tell you, you know, ifwe're talking about Princess
Bride, is this over the top?
Humor.
There was something about thehumor in A Christmas Carol that,
(18:10):
felt like, like actual thingsyou would say in the moment Like
it didn't feel like part of thisfantasy story.
It felt like a true extension ofthe characters and the humor is
what surprised me.
Micah (18:21):
The humor surprised me as well.
I guess I haven't read Dickensin a while.
Like, I don't remember Dickensbeing funny.
Kat (18:26):
Exactly.
Micah (18:27):
It just being sad.
Kat (18:28):
I just remember it being heavy.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, the humor really stood outto me, sometimes I think as
authors, we are tempted to makeit funny, but not authentic to
the character.
And he does a really fantasticjob of making all these little
snide comments, From, you know,
Melissa (18:47):
You're more gravy than grave.
Kat (18:49):
You're more gravy than grave.
Yes.
And I think what's interestingabout the whole Scrooge thing is
this is internal commentary thathe's having.
It doesn't seem like thatbecause the ghosts are
interacting, but these are hisown ghosts.
He spends a lot of the noveltalking to himself, right?
In this sassy kind of sarcasticway.
And that was revelation to me.
(19:10):
But what else, what other craftsof storytelling do you think
was, were done exceptionallywell in this novel?
Laurel (19:16):
It has to be says that he's a, he's a master at
historical novels.
He wrote Tale of Two Cities.
A Christmas Carol is his world.
But then he wrote A Tale of TwoCities, which was obviously not
his world.
Micah (19:30):
Right.
Laurel (19:30):
But he, he weaves that setting, and really that
emotional setting, into hisstories in a way that, wow, it's
just beautifully done.
We know the story of a familywho has nothing, who has a
crippled child, you know,because Bob Cratchit works for,
(19:50):
for Scrooge.
So you know, he reveals so muchabout that historical, which I
don't know that that's reallywhat has endured, but it, he
does it in a way that we read itand we go, yeah, We've never
lived in that part of, ofEngland.
We've never lived in that timeframe, but we're totally
(20:11):
connected which is not easy todo.
Kat (20:15):
Yeah, I was listening to another literary analysis of the
story and it was talking aboutlike the details that Dickens
weaves in without explanation,kind of assuming that, he wrote
it for people of that time.
He was talking specificallyabout the ribbons on Mrs.
Cratchit's dress and in theCratchit household over
(20:36):
Christmas, talking about how,he's like, these people couldn't
afford ribbons, like, ribbonswere the best they could do for
a holiday spirit, but like,that's never explained in this
book.
All these things, he doesn'texplain intent and motive
necessarily in the story.
He just lets it ride and he'slike, the reader will figure it
out.
So that's what I kind of tookaway as like a great lesson is
(20:57):
like, don't over explain thesignificance of a thing just
yet.
If you build the character arcstrong enough.
They'll get it and those are thejuicy little tidbits that when
we read it for the third andfifth and ninth time we're like,
I totally missed the fact thathe was hoarding the coal box in
his office and Cratchit was tooterrified to go ask for more
heat.
Melissa (21:18):
Yeah, I feel like that's kind of a high skill
level like that's that's that'ssomething to work on and aspire
to I, I like books that thinkI'm smart.
I like books that leave a littlesomething for me to say, Oh,
okay, I can put that breadcrumbwith that breadcrumb and get
(21:39):
there without it having beenoverly explained.
And I feel like that, you know,the very first time I wrote, the
manuscript for the first thingthat I wrote.
I would show it and then I wouldtell it or I would tell it and
then show it and it was like,you can cut so many words by
(22:03):
just
Laurel (22:04):
telling us the name of that book that you wrote, right?
Melissa (22:08):
Yes.
Well, it's, it's not out, butunder a far away sky and one of
these days, one of these dayswe'll be out there, but, that,
to me, that is something that, askill to acquire by reading and
by seeing how other writers doit, like you said, to
Laurel (22:26):
Masters.
Melissa (22:26):
Masters.
Kat (22:28):
Yeah.
I think there's, the word thatcame to my head was relaxed.
Just as an author, he relaxedinto that process.
And even though I think thatthis is a very preach heavy
book, if you walk away notterrified about the weight of
your past choices and howthey're building this cycle in
the store.
If you're not terrified aboutlike clinging to crap and money,
(22:50):
like you, okay.
Read it again, slow down.
But, you know, I think abouthow, he just kind of relaxed
maybe into the art, into thecraft, and he relaxed into not
feeling like, I think thatthere's so many.
rules out there for, you know,for writing really great books.
And it's so easy to get so inyour head about the rules that
(23:11):
you just forget to just relaxinto the ease of the process.
Laurel (23:15):
And I, I mean, having to have, a book published for money
to feed your family is a greatmotivation.
Sure.
Yeah.
So I wouldn't call it relaxingas much as highly motivating
because It's true.
Micah (23:30):
Well, you know, the way we all four know each other is
we were originally in a fictioncritique group together that met
monthly and It's so funny tohear Kat say, oh you just need
to relax You know, there's somany different personalities
here.
You have like, you know, youhear Melissa and she's still
(23:52):
like, I'm still perfecting it,I'm still getting it just right,
I've written it through.
And Kat's like, yeah, I whippedthis out in two hours before I
got here.
But it was awesome! It wasawesome! Because she's great!
Kat (24:06):
I had 29 days to write this, and I did it in two hours.
Micah (24:09):
And we're like, this is awesome, Kat! Like, yes, there's
some misspellings and things,but you know.
The dialogue is like snappy andthe action is great and we're
loving it.
So there's lots of differentways.
Everybody's different.
You know, we all, like they say,writing is easy, just open a
vein and bleed all over thepage.
So, you know, it costs us allbut, you know, it, but there's
(24:31):
different ways to do it.
We probably can all learn fromone another and, we can
definitely learn from Dickens.
Again, like deadlines are veryeffective ways of getting words
on the page.
Kat (24:41):
Exactly.
Next question, ladies.
What are truths about society orthe human experience that are
explored, confirmed, orchallenged in this novel.
And I feel like this is kind ofthe meat and potatoes of this
story.
Laurel (24:57):
Yeah.
I, I think so much of it is, youknow, the chain thing.
You build your own chains.
And I think, you know, Marleywas like, yeah, it didn't.
It didn't just happen, thesechains that trail all the way
down the stairs and out thedoor, you know, they were forged
and they were forged by mydecisions over and over and over
(25:18):
because I believed, acted on thefact that money was everything
and, and yet look at what I havenow.
I have nothing.
I have chains.
Micah (25:30):
As much as we're so familiar with this story and as
much as everybody's heard it andeverybody can tell you what the
point is, it's like, we stilldon't open our eyes because you
know, this is not written to us.
This is written to, you knowEngland to London, like, the
corrupt and child labor and allthose things.
It's like, but is it just asmuch or even more true now?
(25:54):
In America?
Today?
Like, we don't think about it,but practically every decision
we make is made.
It's financial.
Like, I mean, for a lot of us,like, everything we do is
motivated by money.
I think that we can't bereminded of that too often.
(26:15):
I mean, just to go back toscripture, you know, and the,
It's easier to go through, theeye of the needle than for a
rich man to, a camel to gothrough the eye of the needle
than a rich man to go to heavenand think, Oh, yeah, that's just
the scripture.
But is that really true?
Like, no, we're all trying to berich.
You know?
Laurel (26:30):
It's so interesting that you would say that, because I
think that we build chains indifferent ways.
You know, we can, we can build alife of isolation in a lot of
ways.
And basically that's, you know,what happened with both Marley
and Scrooge.
Yes, they were pursuing money,but they were building a life of
(26:52):
isolation.
They didn't realize that, butthat's what they were doing.
And of course, so what opens alife is people.
And yet how does a life open topeople?
It, it opens by generosity.
It, it opens by releasing whatyou have and who you are for
(27:13):
people.
Kat (27:15):
So Laurel I think that's actually that ties hand in hand
with the kind of thematicelement that I took away from
the story.
Cause I thought that personally,I'm so sick of this idea of like
rich people are bad because it'skind of like, as Micah said,
like at some point, we're all,to some degree, we're all
striving for financial stabilitybecause we recognize that, like,
Laurel (27:35):
Well, money's not bad.
Kat (27:36):
Money, money in and of itself is not bad, but I think
about this idea of, in a Westernculture, where we have a wealth
of resources, a wealth ofaccessibility, a wealth of
blessings that the convenienceof those things has caused us to
(27:57):
pursue isolation over communitySo we think about like the fact
that, you know, even a hundredyears ago, our ancestors were,
they spent all their time tryingto grow crops, and all their
time trying to, sustain theirfamilies and very physical, hard
labor.
We think about the fact that,you know, they would ride miles
to go and help their friendraise the barn, or drive miles
(28:17):
into town for church to bearound people versus today,
we're so used to the convenienceof this wealth, right?
That we choose fake community.
We choose a dating app versusgoing, you know, out and meeting
people in the real way.
We choose like virtual quoteunquote community.
And I just think about, for me,don't let the convenience of
(28:40):
some of these things.
Cause you to inadvertentlyisolate yourself, right?
Same idea of isolation andcommunity.
I just think that we have achoice these days about whether
or not we engage with peoplebecause I can order my groceries
on walmart.
com and I can have, you know, Ican play video games with my
friends online, but you know, wethink about the skyrocketing
(29:04):
levels of depression and anxietyand suicide and just like
nothing.
Really can, replace that humanto human interaction and getting
back to where we value thatinteraction over the convenience
of
Laurel (29:19):
Well, I think the whole thing is, you know, the whole
miser.
So, do you have to be rich orpoor to be a miser?
Will I open my heart and givewith generosity or will I be a
miser and hoard?
What I have, whether it's, Imean, anything, maybe it's my
peace and my, my time.
(29:40):
Maybe I don't want to share mytime.
Maybe I'd rather be alone.
Thank you very much.
Micah (29:45):
No, I, I think you're exactly right, Laurel.
I think that, like that's whatyou see in Scrooge, right?
Like he is, he's saying, no, Idon't want, I don't want
friendship.
I don't care about community.
I don't care about anythingelse.
I just, me and mine, I'm goingto just take care of my little
bubble right here.
(30:06):
And that is just very, aproposto today.
And it's like, I'm not going torisk.
I'm not going to make myselfvulnerable.
I'm not going to open my heart.
I'm just going to be in my ownlittle insular, society.
So I think that is very true,but then also I think again,
we're so different.
We're so removed from this pointis that we are all rich, right?
(30:30):
Like every single one of us is,As Americans.
We are the one, we are all the 1percent of the world.
Like, so we all have cleanwater.
We can go get it out of drinkingfountains.
We do not have to dig wells andwalk for miles.
And that puts us like in a wholedifferent class than a huge part
of the world.
(30:50):
So when we, like I say, there'sthese people who try to make
these class divisions, but thetruth is as Americans in the
21st century, we have.
So much more.
Laurel (31:01):
So you would say the crux of the issue is, are we
stewarding the blessings that wehave?
Micah (31:09):
Or I would say it's what you said.
It's, are we generous of heart?
open to one another to share ourlives, to share our time, to
share our peace with oneanother.
Melissa (31:20):
Just listening to all this discussion and I just I
think it's all just right onpoint, but it makes me think of
there was this one sentence in,the early part of this book that
we're talking about Scrooge andhis coming into his house.
And it says,"Darkness is cheapand Scrooge liked it".
(31:44):
It just jumped off the page atme for, and I thought, okay,
it's a good literary device thathe has all these just complex,
long, flowery sentences.
And then that one, and it madeit very powerful.
And it also really did justencapsulate his character.
Laurel (32:05):
Mm hmm.
That's good.
Micah (32:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This whole book is much, muchshorter than his normal books.
Just again, like you said, heuses those devices to convey so
much in, for him, a much shorteramount of, of time and words.
Yeah, I think, I think that'spart of the reason why, why this
one stands out.
Kat (32:29):
You don't have to sludge through Nicholas Nickleby and
pray that you make it out alive.
All right, ladies.
Well, let's wrap things up withour character roulette, where we
throw a bunch of characters intoa hat and then we pull a name
out and kind of explore theirsignificance to the plot, their
character development, all thethings.
(32:50):
So, in the hat today, we've got,of course, Scrooge himself.
We've got the ghost of past,present, and future.
We've got good old Tiny Tim, Mr.
Cratchit, Mrs.
Cratchit.
Marley, his nephew.
I like Belle, his fiance.
She was a character that Itotally forgot about in the
(33:11):
story.
So let's just shake this, shakeit up like a maraca.
And, let's see, the name that wepull out is,
Melissa (33:21):
Bob Cratchit.
Laurel (33:22):
Perfect.
Melissa (33:23):
Let's talk about Bob Cratchit.
Laurel (33:25):
Perfect.
Kat (33:26):
Oh, Bobby boy.
Alright.
Bob was A very subtle yetimportant character in the story
and I think that compared to theghost or even Tiny Tim, it's
easy to kind of step over Bob toget to some of the bigger
characters.
So what is it about Bob thatstands out to you as a character
of importance?
Micah (33:45):
Love that he does not seem resentful at all, despite
the abuse that is heaped on him.
How counter cultural is that fortoday?
But you know, he invites Scroogeover.
He doesn't seem like he probablybad mouths Scrooge behind his
back.
You know, he just is doing hisbest.
(34:06):
And living his life, and likeyou say, trying to provide for
his kids, but he does not seemlike he has, this chip on his
shoulder or this bitterness.
And one thing I love about thatis, so, I think it was Gandhi
who said that bitterness, or no,I think it is, like, bitterness
is like drinking poison andexpecting the other person to
die.
(34:26):
We don't believe that.
Like, we, we have these, youknow, we're mad, we're angry.
It's like, you know who that'shurting?
That's hurting you.
It doesn't hurt the otherperson.
And so I think Bob Cratchitrealizes that, like, in the way
he lives.
That he's like, I don't need tojudge Scrooge.
I don't need to, you know, bemad at him.
I'm just going to be me, be atpeace.
Melissa (34:49):
I think, I hate to be the cynic and I usually am not
the cynic, but
Micah (34:55):
Let's hear it.
Let's do it.
Kat (34:58):
She's taking a villainous turn here.
Melissa (35:01):
But I think, I think that he is written as a
stereotype for, the longsuffering, you know, I, I see
him as a literary device of, youknow, showing.
Okay, Scrooge, horrible miser,you know, Bob Cratchit, this
wonderful person who, you know,has no flaws and is just
(35:23):
diligently working and thingslike that.
But also Dickens made him morethan that with his family.
Like he could have just left himthere, but he gave him Tiny Tim.
He gave him a wife with anattitude.
He gave him he gave him childrenthat all had, you know, kind of,
(35:44):
they were lively and had apersonality.
And um, I like that because I, Ido feel like he, he felt like he
needed to communicate somethingit's an expose, it's a, it's a,
well,
Laurel (35:58):
It's a sermon
Micah (35:59):
It's a sermon.
Melissa (36:01):
And, but he, he was pretty generous to Bob Cratchit
and given him.
Kat (36:06):
Melissa, I am, I kind of agree with your assessment, of
this maybe continued message oflike wealthy people are
unpleasant and stingy.
Whereas.
Poor people are, long sufferingand inherently kind and all
these things.
And going back to what you weresaying, Laurel, about the fact
(36:27):
that, no, you can be poor andmiserly, you can be rich and
kind, like, you know, so I cansee how somebody can make a
counter argument for the,appropriateness, if you will, of
like having this stereotypicalpoor character who is this, kind
of forebearing force.
But I think that, as a characterwho moves the plot forward, I
(36:50):
think that without BobCratchit's welcome, Scrooge
really would not have had thepermission to change.
Because everybody in Scrooge'slife knew him as.
this unpleasant person, right?
Except for the man who probablysees Scrooge at his worst,
right?
On the daily, this man whoScrooge is literally freezing
(37:11):
out, right?
In the other half of the office.
He's like, no, come on in toChristmas.
And, and so just this idea oflike, Be the open door that
allows somebody to changebecause it's so easy to get
locked into our cycles.
Laurel (37:24):
That's so good, Kat.
That's lovely.
Kat (37:27):
But what else?
Why is, why else is BobCratchit, a character to make
note of here?
Melissa (37:31):
Well, Tiny Tim.
I mean, you know, we can't talkabout Bob Cratchit without
talking about Tiny Tim.
And, you know, he's an even moreStereotypical stereotype, you
know, the, he's even more of anangel, even, even more
powerless, even more of anangel.
But, um, it works, it all works,even, and it still works.
(37:55):
Even though we're so far removedfrom that culture.
Kat (38:00):
This is just a thought, but I just wonder that when you are
writing such a pointed messagein a story if you have to rely
on such undisguised stereotypes.
One, so that way people are notso busy trying to figure out
what is the point of thischaracter.
Like, they can just follow thestory as it's unfolding and
(38:23):
they're not trying to figureout, okay, what's being shadowed
in Tiny Tim.
And, I think that when you are,you have such an undisguised
message, I don't know if youhave got time for people to be
unraveling the why behind TinyTim, you know?
Micah (38:41):
This is a novella.
This is not, you know, your,your epic
Kat (38:45):
tome.
It's a thick novella though,I'll say.
Laurel (38:49):
Yeah, but I mean it's endearing and it's enduring for
a lot of those reasons I mean,and you know, even when you look
at Christmas in in our cultureand when you go into Walmart in
December like anytime inDecember and you sense the The
(39:11):
panic and the tension and the,you know, like it, we always are
going to have an opportunity toeither be a miser or to be a
giver.
Micah (39:24):
So what a good message to end on as we are about to enter
the Advent and Christmas seasonof being either miserly of heart
or generous of heart withwhatever situation we're at.
Whether someone's asking forsome of our time.
For our attention or our money.
So I'm glad you chose this one,Melissa.
(39:45):
Thank you.
Melissa (39:46):
Oh, all right.
Kat (39:47):
Good pick.
I say that with much, much
Micah (39:51):
difficulty.
Kat (39:51):
Difficult, difficult.
Yes.
Yes.
So we will see you guys strongand bright in 2024 and in the
meantime, check us out onInstagram, come in and follow us
and hang out with us.
And, you guys have a blessed,new year.
Absolutely.
Laurel (40:08):
Bye.
Micah (40:09):
Bye.
Well, welcome you guys to our sixth episode of Stories
That Change Us.
My name is Kat Lewis, and I ama, speaker and thriller author,
and I'm here with some of mywriter friends, to discuss that
Christmas classic, A ChristmasCarol.
by Charles Dickens., I'll behonest, I was not excited to
(00:23):
read this book.
Laurel (00:24):
You're so funny.
We think there must be ablasphemous term for you.
Kat (00:29):
I know, I know.
I realized the last few booksI've not been excited to read.
But you know, what's crazy is toread these books that have
generational significance reallydoes open your eyes to how and
why these authors.
Crafted these stories so well.
So, some fun facts about AChristmas Carol is I didn't
(00:49):
realize that it took only sixweeks to write.
For all of my friends who justgot done with National Novel
Writing Month, aka.
NaNoWriMo.
I'm sure you feel the pain andthe blood and the sleeplessness
of that.
But as Laurel, you were saying,Dickens was a working writer.
He was not this crafty enigmawho was, you know, in his
(01:14):
mansion, writing the things forthe heck of it.
This is how he put food on thetable.
And I think that that's actuallyreally relatable to us as modern
writers who, you know, we're notnecessarily doing this because.
To get these poignant ideas outto the world, although we want
the world to have these poignantideas.
We do.
We're, we're like, I mean, if wecan make money with it as well,
(01:35):
sure.
So, really cool, but also,Micah, one of the things that
you had just mentioned is thatThis novel has been adapted over
a hundred times in variousforms.
Movies, plays, spinoff stories.
Again, I'm shocked.
Um, but again, it just speaks tothe longevity of the story.
And apparently, apparently hedid something successfully.
Micah (01:58):
Well, it's really amazing if you think about it.
This is Micah Leidorf.
I'm I think it's amazing that acharacter that Dickens created
in this little, you know,comparatively to his novella,
compared to his other, you know,tomes of David Copperfield or
whatnot, of Scrooge isuniversally known and
(02:19):
understood.
So he did something right increating this character, um, and
I guess that's what we're goingto explore today in Stories That
Change Us and what theseStorytelling techniques and
tactics that he used.
Now, Melissa, you were the onewho suggested this book.
So
Kat (02:37):
why?
Why?
Why would you want me?
Melissa (02:49):
Um, I, I love it.
It's, it's, There's a reason ithas lasted for 150 years,
Kat (03:00):
did you suggest this book because it's one that you find
yourself perennially reachingfor?
Or did you suggest this bookbecause you kind of wanted to
dive in for yourself?
What is it about this story thathas made it a holiday favorite?
Melissa (03:12):
It's the, it's the, because I don't know how many
times I've read it and it stillmade me cry.
That is, that's why, and,
Micah (03:27):
If you guys could, if you could only see Cat's face, If
you could only see Cat's eyeroll,
Melissa (03:33):
She just lost all respect for me.
If she had any at all, it's gonenow.
Laurel (03:37):
No, you just turned it back on her.
Okay, where is your heart?
Melissa (03:41):
Where is your heart, Kat?
Can you really just see Tiny Timand not cry?
Laurel (03:46):
It's so funny.
Kat (03:47):
I will say, I did cry in the, the film adaptation that
was done.
What was it called?
Melissa (03:53):
The Muppet Movie.
Kat (03:54):
Oh no!
Laurel (03:58):
The Man Who Invented Christmas.
The Muppet Movie.
Kat (04:01):
I just got dissed by the Muppets over here.
Micah (04:05):
That's one of the most popular adaptations of the
Muppets Christmas Carol.
Kat (04:08):
No!
Micah (04:09):
Yes it is.
Kat (04:10):
From the film adaptation, The Man Who Invented Christmas,
I did actually cry looking atthe just kind of the
similarities between thecharacter's arc and his own arc.
I thought that was sobeautifully done and I just
thought, you know what, if itdoesn't matter to us as writers
It's not gonna matter to ourreaders.
And so while I haven't criedreading this story I do remember
(04:33):
saying man when you bleed on thepage There's just something
powerful about you know aboutbeing vulnerable enough to let
that happen.
And I think that we can say thatwith the books that we've read
so far, that there has been anelement of the author really
kind of opening up their soul.
On the page, and I wonder ifthat's one of those little
Micah (04:51):
And I would just say since especially our main
audience is writers If you havenot seen the movie The Man Who
Invented Christmas, you aremissing out.
You would love it It was madefor us.
Kat (05:02):
Go right now! And rented on Netflix.
Twice.
It's amazing.
Micah (05:06):
It is about the process of Dickens writing this book And
it shows probably better thanalmost any other Film depiction,
the writing process, it's like,Oh my gosh, I am seen.
It does.
Somebody understands me.
That's so good.
Laurel (05:24):
And you have to say that, you know, if you look at
character arc, would you saythere's a little bit of a
character arc in this story?
Kat (05:32):
You know, okay, so, you, I'm just saying, okay, let me
read you this statement.
There's such a severe characterarc in this.
Laurel (05:37):
Okay, I know, don't go there not yet.
Okay, here's his statement.
Okay, this is Scrooge.
Every idiot who goes about withMerry Christmas on his lips
should be boiled down with hisown pudding and buried with a
stake of holly through hisheart.
He should.
What's wrong with that, Kat?
Kat (05:56):
Well, it lets us know where he's at emotionally.
I'll tell you that.
No, Laurel, thank you for, youkind of launched us into our
first question, which is,"Whatis a quote that stood out to you
as an excellent example oftension, author's voice, or
character development"?
And without a doubt, thatstatement right there lets us
know where Scrooge is at withthe world, with himself, and it
(06:21):
does such a great, you know, jobof creating this backdrop.
For us to, to launch into thestory with.
So, Melissa, Micah, what else isa quote that stands out to you
as, high significance for thestory?
Micah (06:33):
Well, the quote I chose was not from Scrooge, but from
Marley, who is Scrooge's deadbusiness partner.
So he kind of sometimes gets ashort shrift because we think
about the three ghosts that cameto visit Scrooge, but we forget
that he was visited by Marley.
First, and Marley has these, um,he's covered in these chains,
and what, the quote I have is,"Imade it, link by link, and yard
(06:59):
by yard.
I girded it of my own free will,and my own free will, I wore it,
and by my own free will I woreit".
So, basically, you know, Marleycomes to warn Scrooge.
He comes out of friendship tosay, this is your chance, buddy.
Don't be like me.
And, in my own writing, as youguys know, I like, like a little
(07:20):
bit of the, um, that idea of,opening up our eyes to, to the
truth.
That by the deception, like hethinks he's building this life
for himself and he doesn'trealize that he is, enslaving
himself for eternity.
So, I liked that quote.
Kat (07:39):
Wow.
Melissa?,
Melissa (07:42):
Well, mine is from Bell, his fiance that breaks up
with him.
And when she does, I just feltlike it was, character
exposition, like developingScrooge's character.
I don't know if that, if thosetwo words go together or not,
but just, tells us somethingabout him that, um, she goes, I
(08:05):
release you with a full heartfor the love of him you once
were".
So it shows who he was in thepast.
It's a long passage, so I won'tread it all, but it's, about how
he's got a new love and thatlove is money and she says, I
can't compete with that, but, Ilove how she says, I release you
(08:28):
with remembering who you wereremembering the man I fell in
love with because it just showedthat, that he is redeemable,
that he did it once have aheart...
Kat (08:38):
and that no, I'll, I'll tell you what Dickens does
really, really well as far as,foreshadowing is he really
creates such a great skeleton ofthe Scrooge that was, and he
does a great job of creating alot of questions in the reader's
mind of how did we get to thispoint Scrooge?
Like, cause there's all theselittle touches, You weren't
(08:59):
always this money harboring, youknow, bitter, nasty, bent over
old man.
And he does a lot of great, youknow, there's all these little
hints of the life before.
And it kind of, to Micah'spoint, it draws you into this
question of, you know, how didhe get there?
And how, how do we as people getthere?
So,
Melissa (09:18):
Well, I think that, that this scene with Belle is
very much a, a crossroads forhim where he can say, I'm sorry,
I value you more than money.
I value relationships more thanmoney.
Or he can, close off that partof his heart.
And that probably was where hemay, you know, I can see the
(09:42):
character saying, okay, I'mgonna make a sharp turn to to
really embrace this mistressthat you have, that you think
I've chosen, I'm really going tochoose it.
And I'm going to try to find mycomfort there.
Kat (09:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Name a moment in the story thatstands out with visceral relief
and explain the storytellingtechniques that the writer used
to make this a successful scene?
Micah (10:08):
So I'm just gonna go with the super obvious.
I mean, you know, again, if theonly version of this movie that
you've ever seen is the, youknow, the Muppets version.
It doesn't really matter,whatever version it is.
Kat (10:19):
Millennials have only seen the Muppets version of Micah.
Micah (10:22):
You, everybody knows Tiny Tim.
Everybody can remember the lastscene where, you know, he goes,
you know, opens the windows, youknow.
Celebrates, you know, lifts himup on his shoulder.
Now, but why does that scenehave so much power?
It's because it's basically, itfeels like the whole story's
(10:44):
been building up to that moment,right?
Like every single quote from thequote you first said, which,
okay, you're gonna stick theholly in his heart.
Okay, he's gonna, he's gonnacircle back.
So as authors, a lot of times, Idon't know if there's like a
what the rule is in stone, butbasically it's the idea that
usually you want your openingcredit to match your closing.
So you want to, you know, startwhere you finished and you know
(11:07):
what they, and so that's exactlywhat we do.
We have him, you know, justbeing so miserly, so cold to
being just the exact opposite toembracing this little boy, you
know, instead of saying, Whereare the workhouses?
You know, where are the, youknow, the poor houses?
Do, do they not, do they nothave prisons anymore?
(11:27):
Like, that's where the poorpeople should go.
To instead saying, okay, I'mgoing to do everything I can in
lavish.
So again, I, so I, that's the,Obvious scene to me.
I go for the obvious.
Kat (11:38):
Well, mimic the, the technique that you're referring
to here, Micah, there's thisidea that, um, at some point you
want, or, you know, you wantyour hero to identify the little
boy or little girl that oncewas, and you want to give that,
that person like a moment toreally come forth and shine.
(11:59):
And like, that's where like thehealing happens and all things.
So I think that Dickens does agreat job of Literally, if
Scrooge is this hurt little boywho was poor and struggled, Tiny
Tim is like the redeemed aspectof that and I think that's why
it's so triumphant for Scrooge,is he's like, Oh, I've, I've
regained my youthfulness.
I've regained that innocentperspective of the world that I
(12:21):
had lost scrounging.
And I think that's why thatscene is so powerful.
What else?
What other scenes stand out?
Laurel (12:29):
Yeah, I mean, Save the Cat talks about the opening
image and the final image.
I think it's Save the Cat.
But it, you know, basically thatcontrast of, you know, Marley is
so important that he comesfirst.
Because he states the wholedirection of the novel.
It's like, look, you are addingevery link to that chain.
(12:53):
It was so cool when Marley wascoming into the house because he
hears him open the door and hehears him walking up the stairs
and the clank of that, thosechains that, you know, Marley
had, but you know, it, what Iremember is you build the links.
We built the links for our ownlives.
(13:14):
Will they be chains or willthere be like in the final image
generosity?
And open hands and open arms tolife and to people and to what
matters, basically.
Micah (13:27):
So, Laurel, you referred to the book, Save the Cat, which
for those who don't know is avery famous and very, excellent.
Guide for screenwritersscreenwriters and also the Save
The Cat Writes A Novel so forbooks But the concept is that in
early in the story The maincharacter does something like
(13:47):
saves a cat that kind of cluesyou in to who like So what do
you think was the save the cat?
Is that what you read?
I felt like that was what you'rereferring to
Laurel (13:55):
No, I was like, okay.
Oh like the opening image andthe final image, okay are like
contrasts.
Yes.
But it's so important thatthey're shown and not said.
Kat (14:05):
So I'm a big, chiastic structure girl.
Basically, it's the structurethat C.
S.
Lewis used to create Chroniclesof Narnia.
It's the structure that J.
K.
Rowling used to create, HarryPotter.
And, she says that in chiasticstructure, the opening image and
the final image are mirrors ofeach other, right?
They're not contrasts, they'reexact mirrors.
(14:26):
So, you know, and we can evensee this in, like, most clearly,
I think, in Chronicles ofNarnia, where, like, we start
the journey in the wardrobe andwe end the book with Lucy trying
to get back to Narnia throughthe wardrobe.
Like, it's a, it's this fullpicture of this Journey that's
been complete.
So I mean just just food forthought like
Laurel (14:46):
but often often opening and final image can show
character arc in a big way.
Oh, yeah So, you know the wholefact that we're seeing tiny Tim
embraced and held up on you knowScrooge's shoulders that That
was what I was talking about.
So it, it, it is a mirror.
It is a situation, but itreflects transformation.
(15:09):
Yeah.
If there's a positive characterarc.
And again, you know, Save theCats, not the only craft book in
the world.
So it's just a, it's a cooltechnique that you can use and
it can be effective.
Melissa (15:19):
It's a short story.
It was written as a commentaryon the time where the wide gulf
between the people who had moneyand the people who were poor
and, Dickens himself, his familywas poor and he had experience
with his father was sent todebtor's prison and, he had to
(15:45):
quit school because of that.
So he is writing something thathe feels very passionately
about.
But, in his, um, hisconversation with Marley,
Scrooge says,"But you werealways a good man of business,
Jacob".
And"Business," cried the ghost,mankind was my business.
(16:06):
The common welfare was mybusiness, charity, mercy,
forbearance, and benevolencewere all my business.
The dealings of my trade werebut a drop of water in the
comprehensive ocean of mybusiness".
And I loved how he, veryquickly, you know, it's a short
work, very quickly got the,theme out.
(16:26):
Obviously, you know, veryobvious, but at least he did it,
you know, through the mouth of aghost.
You know, he did it in a waythat was action and that,
actually I liked that.
Micah (16:38):
I think I'm, I'm know, I'm probably skipping ahead a
little bit, but you know, welike to talk about what the
authors do, does extremely well,and that's what I think Dickens
does extremely well is and whythis may be part of why this
story.
Is, been told so many times thisperennial popularity is that is
so original.
It doesn't seem original to usnow because we've seen it a
(17:00):
hundred times, but this way oftelling where you have this
ghost and the past and presentand future, it's so original.
It's so different thateveryone's like, Oh yeah, let's
copy that.
That like that, you know, it's,it's succinct, it's short, but
it conveys this huge message.
It gives all this opportunityto, to tell about, you know, His
(17:20):
beginning life and his end lifejust in such a, entertaining and
succinct way.
Like, I mean, it's fromeverything from the Muppets to,
I don't know if you saw theGhost of Girlfriends past was
Matthew McConaughey, right?
So, when somebody does somethingthat was really original, then
everybody else copies it, butyou forget how original it was.
(17:42):
Um, in the beginning.
So that's what I think he did sowell here.
Kat (17:47):
Yeah.
Well, let's pivot and let's gothere.
What aspects of this book,revealed or introduced or helped
you relearn an element ofstorytelling craft, that just
really, really stood out to you?
And I'll tell you, you know, ifwe're talking about Princess
Bride, is this over the top?
Humor.
There was something about thehumor in A Christmas Carol that,
(18:10):
felt like, like actual thingsyou would say in the moment Like
it didn't feel like part of thisfantasy story.
It felt like a true extension ofthe characters and the humor is
what surprised me.
Micah (18:21):
The humor surprised me as well.
I guess I haven't read Dickensin a while.
Like, I don't remember Dickensbeing funny.
Kat (18:26):
Exactly.
Micah (18:27):
It just being sad.
Kat (18:28):
I just remember it being heavy.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, the humor really stood outto me, sometimes I think as
authors, we are tempted to makeit funny, but not authentic to
the character.
And he does a really fantasticjob of making all these little
snide comments, From, you know,
Melissa (18:47):
You're more gravy than grave.
Kat (18:49):
You're more gravy than grave.
Yes.
And I think what's interestingabout the whole Scrooge thing is
this is internal commentary thathe's having.
It doesn't seem like thatbecause the ghosts are
interacting, but these are hisown ghosts.
He spends a lot of the noveltalking to himself, right?
In this sassy kind of sarcasticway.
And that was revelation to me.
(19:10):
But what else, what other craftsof storytelling do you think
was, were done exceptionallywell in this novel?
Laurel (19:16):
It has to be says that he's a, he's a master at
historical novels.
He wrote Tale of Two Cities.
A Christmas Carol is his world.
But then he wrote A Tale of TwoCities, which was obviously not
his world.
Micah (19:30):
Right.
Laurel (19:30):
But he, he weaves that setting, and really that
emotional setting, into hisstories in a way that, wow, it's
just beautifully done.
We know the story of a familywho has nothing, who has a
crippled child, you know,because Bob Cratchit works for,
(19:50):
for Scrooge.
So you know, he reveals so muchabout that historical, which I
don't know that that's reallywhat has endured, but it, he
does it in a way that we read itand we go, yeah, We've never
lived in that part of, ofEngland.
We've never lived in that timeframe, but we're totally
(20:11):
connected which is not easy todo.
Kat (20:15):
Yeah, I was listening to another literary analysis of the
story and it was talking aboutlike the details that Dickens
weaves in without explanation,kind of assuming that, he wrote
it for people of that time.
He was talking specificallyabout the ribbons on Mrs.
Cratchit's dress and in theCratchit household over
(20:36):
Christmas, talking about how,he's like, these people couldn't
afford ribbons, like, ribbonswere the best they could do for
a holiday spirit, but like,that's never explained in this
book.
All these things, he doesn'texplain intent and motive
necessarily in the story.
He just lets it ride and he'slike, the reader will figure it
out.
So that's what I kind of tookaway as like a great lesson is
(20:57):
like, don't over explain thesignificance of a thing just
yet.
If you build the character arcstrong enough.
They'll get it and those are thejuicy little tidbits that when
we read it for the third andfifth and ninth time we're like,
I totally missed the fact thathe was hoarding the coal box in
his office and Cratchit was tooterrified to go ask for more
heat.
Melissa (21:18):
Yeah, I feel like that's kind of a high skill
level like that's that's that'ssomething to work on and aspire
to I, I like books that thinkI'm smart.
I like books that leave a littlesomething for me to say, Oh,
okay, I can put that breadcrumbwith that breadcrumb and get
(21:39):
there without it having beenoverly explained.
And I feel like that, you know,the very first time I wrote, the
manuscript for the first thingthat I wrote.
I would show it and then I wouldtell it or I would tell it and
then show it and it was like,you can cut so many words by
(22:03):
just
Laurel (22:04):
telling us the name of that book that you wrote, right?
Melissa (22:08):
Yes.
Well, it's, it's not out, butunder a far away sky and one of
these days, one of these dayswe'll be out there, but, that,
to me, that is something that, askill to acquire by reading and
by seeing how other writers doit, like you said, to
Laurel (22:26):
Masters.
Melissa (22:26):
Masters.
Kat (22:28):
Yeah.
I think there's, the word thatcame to my head was relaxed.
Just as an author, he relaxedinto that process.
And even though I think thatthis is a very preach heavy
book, if you walk away notterrified about the weight of
your past choices and howthey're building this cycle in
the store.
If you're not terrified aboutlike clinging to crap and money,
(22:50):
like you, okay.
Read it again, slow down.
But, you know, I think abouthow, he just kind of relaxed
maybe into the art, into thecraft, and he relaxed into not
feeling like, I think thatthere's so many.
rules out there for, you know,for writing really great books.
And it's so easy to get so inyour head about the rules that
(23:11):
you just forget to just relaxinto the ease of the process.
Laurel (23:15):
And I, I mean, having to have, a book published for money
to feed your family is a greatmotivation.
Sure.
Yeah.
So I wouldn't call it relaxingas much as highly motivating
because It's true.
Micah (23:30):
Well, you know, the way we all four know each other is
we were originally in a fictioncritique group together that met
monthly and It's so funny tohear Kat say, oh you just need
to relax You know, there's somany different personalities
here.
You have like, you know, youhear Melissa and she's still
(23:52):
like, I'm still perfecting it,I'm still getting it just right,
I've written it through.
And Kat's like, yeah, I whippedthis out in two hours before I
got here.
But it was awesome! It wasawesome! Because she's great!
Kat (24:06):
I had 29 days to write this, and I did it in two hours.
Micah (24:09):
And we're like, this is awesome, Kat! Like, yes, there's
some misspellings and things,but you know.
The dialogue is like snappy andthe action is great and we're
loving it.
So there's lots of differentways.
Everybody's different.
You know, we all, like they say,writing is easy, just open a
vein and bleed all over thepage.
So, you know, it costs us allbut, you know, it, but there's
(24:31):
different ways to do it.
We probably can all learn fromone another and, we can
definitely learn from Dickens.
Again, like deadlines are veryeffective ways of getting words
on the page.
Kat (24:41):
Exactly.
Next question, ladies.
What are truths about society orthe human experience that are
explored, confirmed, orchallenged in this novel.
And I feel like this is kind ofthe meat and potatoes of this
story.
Laurel (24:57):
Yeah.
I, I think so much of it is, youknow, the chain thing.
You build your own chains.
And I think, you know, Marleywas like, yeah, it didn't.
It didn't just happen, thesechains that trail all the way
down the stairs and out thedoor, you know, they were forged
and they were forged by mydecisions over and over and over
(25:18):
because I believed, acted on thefact that money was everything
and, and yet look at what I havenow.
I have nothing.
I have chains.
Micah (25:30):
As much as we're so familiar with this story and as
much as everybody's heard it andeverybody can tell you what the
point is, it's like, we stilldon't open our eyes because you
know, this is not written to us.
This is written to, you knowEngland to London, like, the
corrupt and child labor and allthose things.
It's like, but is it just asmuch or even more true now?
(25:54):
In America?
Today?
Like, we don't think about it,but practically every decision
we make is made.
It's financial.
Like, I mean, for a lot of us,like, everything we do is
motivated by money.
I think that we can't bereminded of that too often.
(26:15):
I mean, just to go back toscripture, you know, and the,
It's easier to go through, theeye of the needle than for a
rich man to, a camel to gothrough the eye of the needle
than a rich man to go to heavenand think, Oh, yeah, that's just
the scripture.
But is that really true?
Like, no, we're all trying to berich.
You know?
Laurel (26:30):
It's so interesting that you would say that, because I
think that we build chains indifferent ways.
You know, we can, we can build alife of isolation in a lot of
ways.
And basically that's, you know,what happened with both Marley
and Scrooge.
Yes, they were pursuing money,but they were building a life of
(26:52):
isolation.
They didn't realize that, butthat's what they were doing.
And of course, so what opens alife is people.
And yet how does a life open topeople?
It, it opens by generosity.
It, it opens by releasing whatyou have and who you are for
(27:13):
people.
Kat (27:15):
So Laurel I think that's actually that ties hand in hand
with the kind of thematicelement that I took away from
the story.
Cause I thought that personally,I'm so sick of this idea of like
rich people are bad because it'skind of like, as Micah said,
like at some point, we're all,to some degree, we're all
striving for financial stabilitybecause we recognize that, like,
Laurel (27:35):
Well, money's not bad.
Kat (27:36):
Money, money in and of itself is not bad, but I think
about this idea of, in a Westernculture, where we have a wealth
of resources, a wealth ofaccessibility, a wealth of
blessings that the convenienceof those things has caused us to
(27:57):
pursue isolation over communitySo we think about like the fact
that, you know, even a hundredyears ago, our ancestors were,
they spent all their time tryingto grow crops, and all their
time trying to, sustain theirfamilies and very physical, hard
labor.
We think about the fact that,you know, they would ride miles
to go and help their friendraise the barn, or drive miles
(28:17):
into town for church to bearound people versus today,
we're so used to the convenienceof this wealth, right?
That we choose fake community.
We choose a dating app versusgoing, you know, out and meeting
people in the real way.
We choose like virtual quoteunquote community.
And I just think about, for me,don't let the convenience of
(28:40):
some of these things.
Cause you to inadvertentlyisolate yourself, right?
Same idea of isolation andcommunity.
I just think that we have achoice these days about whether
or not we engage with peoplebecause I can order my groceries
on walmart.
com and I can have, you know, Ican play video games with my
friends online, but you know, wethink about the skyrocketing
(29:04):
levels of depression and anxietyand suicide and just like
nothing.
Really can, replace that humanto human interaction and getting
back to where we value thatinteraction over the convenience
of
Laurel (29:19):
Well, I think the whole thing is, you know, the whole
miser.
So, do you have to be rich orpoor to be a miser?
Will I open my heart and givewith generosity or will I be a
miser and hoard?
What I have, whether it's, Imean, anything, maybe it's my
peace and my, my time.
(29:40):
Maybe I don't want to share mytime.
Maybe I'd rather be alone.
Thank you very much.
Micah (29:45):
No, I, I think you're exactly right, Laurel.
I think that, like that's whatyou see in Scrooge, right?
Like he is, he's saying, no, Idon't want, I don't want
friendship.
I don't care about community.
I don't care about anythingelse.
I just, me and mine, I'm goingto just take care of my little
bubble right here.
(30:06):
And that is just very, aproposto today.
And it's like, I'm not going torisk.
I'm not going to make myselfvulnerable.
I'm not going to open my heart.
I'm just going to be in my ownlittle insular, society.
So I think that is very true,but then also I think again,
we're so different.
We're so removed from this pointis that we are all rich, right?
(30:30):
Like every single one of us is,As Americans.
We are the one, we are all the 1percent of the world.
Like, so we all have cleanwater.
We can go get it out of drinkingfountains.
We do not have to dig wells andwalk for miles.
And that puts us like in a wholedifferent class than a huge part
of the world.
(30:50):
So when we, like I say, there'sthese people who try to make
these class divisions, but thetruth is as Americans in the
21st century, we have.
So much more.
Laurel (31:01):
So you would say the crux of the issue is, are we
stewarding the blessings that wehave?
Micah (31:09):
Or I would say it's what you said.
It's, are we generous of heart?
open to one another to share ourlives, to share our time, to
share our peace with oneanother.
Melissa (31:20):
Just listening to all this discussion and I just I
think it's all just right onpoint, but it makes me think of
there was this one sentence in,the early part of this book that
we're talking about Scrooge andhis coming into his house.
And it says,"Darkness is cheapand Scrooge liked it".
(31:44):
It just jumped off the page atme for, and I thought, okay,
it's a good literary device thathe has all these just complex,
long, flowery sentences.
And then that one, and it madeit very powerful.
And it also really did justencapsulate his character.
Laurel (32:05):
Mm hmm.
That's good.
Micah (32:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This whole book is much, muchshorter than his normal books.
Just again, like you said, heuses those devices to convey so
much in, for him, a much shorteramount of, of time and words.
Yeah, I think, I think that'spart of the reason why, why this
one stands out.
Kat (32:29):
You don't have to sludge through Nicholas Nickleby and
pray that you make it out alive.
All right, ladies.
Well, let's wrap things up withour character roulette, where we
throw a bunch of characters intoa hat and then we pull a name
out and kind of explore theirsignificance to the plot, their
character development, all thethings.
(32:50):
So, in the hat today, we've got,of course, Scrooge himself.
We've got the ghost of past,present, and future.
We've got good old Tiny Tim, Mr.
Cratchit, Mrs.
Cratchit.
Marley, his nephew.
I like Belle, his fiance.
She was a character that Itotally forgot about in the
(33:11):
story.
So let's just shake this, shakeit up like a maraca.
And, let's see, the name that wepull out is,
Melissa (33:21):
Bob Cratchit.
Laurel (33:22):
Perfect.
Melissa (33:23):
Let's talk about Bob Cratchit.
Laurel (33:25):
Perfect.
Kat (33:26):
Oh, Bobby boy.
Alright.
Bob was A very subtle yetimportant character in the story
and I think that compared to theghost or even Tiny Tim, it's
easy to kind of step over Bob toget to some of the bigger
characters.
So what is it about Bob thatstands out to you as a character
of importance?
Micah (33:45):
Love that he does not seem resentful at all, despite
the abuse that is heaped on him.
How counter cultural is that fortoday?
But you know, he invites Scroogeover.
He doesn't seem like he probablybad mouths Scrooge behind his
back.
You know, he just is doing hisbest.
(34:06):
And living his life, and likeyou say, trying to provide for
his kids, but he does not seemlike he has, this chip on his
shoulder or this bitterness.
And one thing I love about thatis, so, I think it was Gandhi
who said that bitterness, or no,I think it is, like, bitterness
is like drinking poison andexpecting the other person to
die.
(34:26):
We don't believe that.
Like, we, we have these, youknow, we're mad, we're angry.
It's like, you know who that'shurting?
That's hurting you.
It doesn't hurt the otherperson.
And so I think Bob Cratchitrealizes that, like, in the way
he lives.
That he's like, I don't need tojudge Scrooge.
I don't need to, you know, bemad at him.
I'm just going to be me, be atpeace.
Melissa (34:49):
I think, I hate to be the cynic and I usually am not
the cynic, but
Micah (34:55):
Let's hear it.
Let's do it.
Kat (34:58):
She's taking a villainous turn here.
Melissa (35:01):
But I think, I think that he is written as a
stereotype for, the longsuffering, you know, I, I see
him as a literary device of, youknow, showing.
Okay, Scrooge, horrible miser,you know, Bob Cratchit, this
wonderful person who, you know,has no flaws and is just
(35:23):
diligently working and thingslike that.
But also Dickens made him morethan that with his family.
Like he could have just left himthere, but he gave him Tiny Tim.
He gave him a wife with anattitude.
He gave him he gave him childrenthat all had, you know, kind of,
(35:44):
they were lively and had apersonality.
And um, I like that because I, Ido feel like he, he felt like he
needed to communicate somethingit's an expose, it's a, it's a,
well,
Laurel (35:58):
It's a sermon
Micah (35:59):
It's a sermon.
Melissa (36:01):
And, but he, he was pretty generous to Bob Cratchit
and given him.
Kat (36:06):
Melissa, I am, I kind of agree with your assessment, of
this maybe continued message oflike wealthy people are
unpleasant and stingy.
Whereas.
Poor people are, long sufferingand inherently kind and all
these things.
And going back to what you weresaying, Laurel, about the fact
(36:27):
that, no, you can be poor andmiserly, you can be rich and
kind, like, you know, so I cansee how somebody can make a
counter argument for the,appropriateness, if you will, of
like having this stereotypicalpoor character who is this, kind
of forebearing force.
But I think that, as a characterwho moves the plot forward, I
(36:50):
think that without BobCratchit's welcome, Scrooge
really would not have had thepermission to change.
Because everybody in Scrooge'slife knew him as.
this unpleasant person, right?
Except for the man who probablysees Scrooge at his worst,
right?
On the daily, this man whoScrooge is literally freezing
(37:11):
out, right?
In the other half of the office.
He's like, no, come on in toChristmas.
And, and so just this idea oflike, Be the open door that
allows somebody to changebecause it's so easy to get
locked into our cycles.
Laurel (37:24):
That's so good, Kat.
That's lovely.
Kat (37:27):
But what else?
Why is, why else is BobCratchit, a character to make
note of here?
Melissa (37:31):
Well, Tiny Tim.
I mean, you know, we can't talkabout Bob Cratchit without
talking about Tiny Tim.
And, you know, he's an even moreStereotypical stereotype, you
know, the, he's even more of anangel, even, even more
powerless, even more of anangel.
But, um, it works, it all works,even, and it still works.
(37:55):
Even though we're so far removedfrom that culture.
Kat (38:00):
This is just a thought, but I just wonder that when you are
writing such a pointed messagein a story if you have to rely
on such undisguised stereotypes.
One, so that way people are notso busy trying to figure out
what is the point of thischaracter.
Like, they can just follow thestory as it's unfolding and
(38:23):
they're not trying to figureout, okay, what's being shadowed
in Tiny Tim.
And, I think that when you are,you have such an undisguised
message, I don't know if youhave got time for people to be
unraveling the why behind TinyTim, you know?
Micah (38:41):
This is a novella.
This is not, you know, your,your epic
Kat (38:45):
tome.
It's a thick novella though,I'll say.
Laurel (38:49):
Yeah, but I mean it's endearing and it's enduring for
a lot of those reasons I mean,and you know, even when you look
at Christmas in in our cultureand when you go into Walmart in
December like anytime inDecember and you sense the The
(39:11):
panic and the tension and the,you know, like it, we always are
going to have an opportunity toeither be a miser or to be a
giver.
Micah (39:24):
So what a good message to end on as we are about to enter
the Advent and Christmas seasonof being either miserly of heart
or generous of heart withwhatever situation we're at.
Whether someone's asking forsome of our time.
For our attention or our money.
So I'm glad you chose this one,Melissa.
(39:45):
Thank you.
Melissa (39:46):
Oh, all right.
Kat (39:47):
Good pick.
I say that with much, much
Micah (39:51):
difficulty.
Kat (39:51):
Difficult, difficult.
Yes.
Yes.
So we will see you guys strongand bright in 2024 and in the
meantime, check us out onInstagram, come in and follow us
and hang out with us.
And, you guys have a blessed,new year.
Absolutely.
Laurel (40:08):
Bye.
Micah (40:09):
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.