December 29, 2024 • 46 mins
Part religious satire, part social commentary, and wholly fictional genius, The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis is a deeply stirring epistolary that has prompted much conversation about the state of humanity since it was first published in 1942. As a work of storytelling brilliance, join us as we evaluate the literary elements that Lewis employed to give us greater insight into the motivations of demons, angels, and our own souls in a way that is not preachy and extremely entertaining.
Moderated By: Micah Leydorf
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
https://instagram.com/storiesthat_changeus?igshid=eTlibmFxdXZmbXV5&utm_source=qr
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Micah Leydorf (00:01):
and welcome to Stories That Change Us, our
sixth episode of the podcast.
I'm Micah Leydorf, and I'm herewith my wonderful writer
friends, I'm Melissa Grace, KatLewis, Laurel Thomas.
And today I am so excited thatwe are reading one of my very
favorite of all time books bymy, one of my very favorite all
(00:23):
time authors, The ScrewtapeLetterss by C.
S.
Lewis.
So, just a little bit ofbackground.
If you don't know who C.
S.
Lewis is.
I guess there might be somepeople who might not know one of
the best authors of the 20thcentury, especially Christian
authors of the 20th century.
This book was written in 1942.
(00:44):
It was written before his mostpopular work of the Chronicles
of Narnia, his children'sseries.
It was originally published as,um, articles in The Guardian
from May to November in 1941,and then published as a book in
1942.
It's in a, what they call itepistolary novel.
(01:04):
So done in letters from afictional satirical demon
,Screwtape, to his nephew,Wormwood.
Throughout it, it givescommentary on modern culture and
the nature of temptation and allsorts of things.
And, um, we'll just start offwith, um, Our question that we
(01:28):
like to ask the very first islike, what quotes stood out to
you ladies I'm assuming you guyshave all read it before.
Kat Lewis (01:35):
No, this was my first time slogging through The
Screwtape Letterss
Micah Leydorf (01:40):
Oh, Kat.
Come on, you enjoyed it.
Kat Lewis (01:44):
To be honest, I did enjoy it.
I just, um, it was not a bookthat I could read fluidly.
I had to read it and thenprocess it and then come back
and read it and process it.
And I have filled up a journalwith all of the things learned
and, you know, assumed from TheScrewtape Letters.
So I did enjoy it, but it is,um, it was not, it was not like
(02:07):
a read in one sitting kind ofbook.
Micah Leydorf (02:10):
Right, right.
You know, it's actuallyinteresting that you say that,
Kat, because I have a personaltheory about it.
I feel like most Christians haveheard of it and probably have
read some of it.
But I think very few people haveactually read all of it because
of exactly what you said.
Like you read one letter andyou're like, Oh, okay, that was
(02:31):
a lot.
I'm going to need to sit withthat for a while.
And, you guys know, I actuallyhave come out with my first
novel.
Actually I just published it atthe end of last year and it's
kind of getting a little bit ofsteam right now.
Yeah, I know I actually haveover a hundred women, um, will
be starting on Wednesday in aLinton, um, discussion group.
(02:54):
That's amazing.
All across the country and inCanada and England.
But how that's relevant to theScrewtape Letters is that my
book wasn't inspired by TheScrewtape Letterss, but in one
of our WriterCon conferences,that's where we all connected,
um, I got some input from ReneeGutteridge, one of our, um,
teachers there.
(03:15):
Some, you know, personal one onone critique.
And she's like, um, you know,you need a little bit of plot
and, you know, like morecharacter arc and development.
And I'm like, Oh, no, this is,this is not fiction.
This is just really a clever wayto write an essay.
And she's like, well, unless youbelieve that demons write
letters, like you're writingfiction.
(03:36):
And so that was when I was like,before mine was kind of more
straight, like Screwtape.
I thought, oh, I just wantsomebody to write, and I love
this book so much.
I want someone to writesomething from, I feel like
women are probably tempteddifferent than men.
And I feel like Americans aretempted different from English
people in the 1940s and so Iwanted something up to date.
(03:58):
But mine is quite different nowbecause it has um, It does have
plot and it does have threecharacters, Angel's voice and
then a woman's journal to drivethat action forward, which are
all these techniques that Ilearned partially from going to
these conferences and hangingout with you ladies.
So, so like I say, so my book isnamed The Unseen Battle: An
Unexpected Love Story.
(04:18):
And like I say, it's very muchinspired from The Screwtape
Letters but like I say, what yousaid, Kat, is exactly kind of
the motivation was, Oh, okay, weneed something that actually
keeps people going from chapterto chapter and they don't just
stop.
It makes it a little bit easierand not quite so condensed.
How about you, Melissa?
What did you, what was yourfirst impressions?
Melissa Grace (04:38):
Um, I loved it because I just feel like the
voice is so very clever.
Just like, I think with, um,your novel, Micah, I always just
loved, I loved the, the voices,you know, the demon voices that
sounds bad, but, um, and theangel voices, you know, the,
the, their style.
I, I just think they're soentertaining.
(05:01):
You portray the characters withhow the, the angel voice is so
very full of grace and the demonvoice is so full of sarcasm and
derogatory insults and thingslike that.
And, um, that, that was what Ienjoyed about the original also.
(05:24):
Just, just the voice.
I
Micah Leydorf (05:26):
learned there's a term for that.
It's demonic ventriloquism isapparently the term that he
coined this literary device andit's been replicated in at
least, you know, over a dozendifferent books since then.
But I think that's what you'rereferring to.
Laurel Thomas (05:43):
It's interesting if you read the introduction,
you get a clear view of C.
S.
Lewis and he said, it's not goodto focus on evil and keep in
mind that everything the evilone says is a lie.
So, I thought that really, itwas crafted so brilliantly that
(06:08):
everything is a lie.
And he talked about doctrine,and basically doctrine is just,
what do we believe?
And how close is it to revealtruth?
And so, of course, that is whatshapes us, what we believe, and
therefore it shapes our cultureat some point.
So, um, anyway, that's a longanswer, but I thought the
(06:31):
introduction to me Help me readthe rest of it.
Cause I was like, I don't reallycare, you know, I don't really
care what this demon has to say,but the whole shaping of what we
believe, I think was the impetusfor this book.
Melissa Grace (06:52):
Yeah, he said that that was so there's a,
there is a, my, uh, additionthat I read, there is a toast at
the end.
And it was written like 20 or 30years later.
And he says in the littledescription or introduction, I
did not want to go back to, asyou know, they put the coin, the
(07:16):
phrase demon ventriloquism.
I did not want to do that.
They've been asking me to writethis followup for a very long
time.
And I didn't want to, because hedidn't want to hang out in that
headspace.
But, um, It's, it's all, it'svery good.
And, and I, I think that is whatI find really fascinating about
(07:37):
the concept is that when I readthings in this book and I say,
Oh, that's a lie I am fallingfor.
Absolutely.
I mean, that is what makes itstill powerful after all these
years.
Micah Leydorf (07:56):
I think that's what it's all about.
It's all about deception andit's all about recognizing the
lies that you believe.
And just like you said, Laurel,it's about what we believe, but
we don't even know what webelieve.
That's what the demons are, aresaying.
It's like, don't let themactually think that they're
actually believing this becauseif they do, well, the gig is up.
(08:20):
Um, so I don't know what quotesyou guys picked out, but like
one of my favorites.
I mean, the hard thing aboutthis is it's all so good that I
hate to be like, why don't Ijust take out that small part
and read this whole letter, butI will not read the whole
letter.
But there's a kind of famous onethat says, I now see that I
spent most of my life in doingneither what I ought nor what I
(08:45):
like".
Like, so that's kind of earlieron.
And then it concludes with,"Itdoes not matter how small the
sins are provided.
that their cumulative effect isto edge the man away from the
light and out into the nothing.
Murder is no better than cardsif cards can do the trick.
Indeed, the safest road to hellis the gradual one, the gentle
(09:10):
slope, soft underfoot, withoutsudden turnings, without
milestones, without signposts,your affectionate uncle screw
tape".
Um, so whenever I had the ideaof writing my own book, the kind
of the impetus of it wasactually this idea of, Oh, okay.
Like to think like a strategist,it wasn't, um, it was, I was
(09:34):
going to take an action that Iwas convinced was good.
And I thought, Oh, it wasn'tthat I was going to do it, but I
thought it was so good.
And I thought, Oh, if I was, ademon, or if I was Satan, of
course, that's what I would do.
I wouldn't say, Oh, hey, here,come get some candy and get in
the van.
And dear little girl, you know,
Melissa Grace (09:54):
Help me find my puppy.
Micah Leydorf (09:54):
Come do this evil thing.
It would be like, no, you know,this is the good thing.
And so I just thought, well, youknow, maybe if I started
thinking that way, that would behelpful to reveal these lies.
Cause you know what they say,like on G.
I.
Joe or whatever, Knowledge ishalf the battle.
Once you, once you unveil it,you're halfway there.
So, are there any quotes, otherquotes that stood out to you
(10:16):
guys?
Melissa Grace (10:17):
Well, I loved this one.
It's, it's, Not far away fromthe one that you just quoted.
Um, again, this is Screwtapewriting to his nephew, the
Enderdemon.
Of course, I know that, oh, and,um, for anyone not familiar with
the book, the enemy is God.
Right.
Um,"Of course I know that theenemy also wants to detach men
(10:40):
from themselves, but in adifferent way, remember always
that he really likes the littlevermin and sets an observed
value on the distinctness ofevery one of them.
When he talks of their losingtheir selves, he only means
abandoning the clamor of selfwill.
Once they have done that hereally gives them back all their
(11:02):
personality and both.
I'm afraid sincerely that whenthey are wholly his, they will
be more themselves than ever.
Hence, while he is delighted tosee them sacrificing even their
innocent wills to his, he hatesto see them drifting away from
their own nature for any otherreason." That to me, that's just
(11:23):
a very grace filled andwonderful description of God's
affection for us as individuals.
It's very personal.
It's very individual that hereally did, you know, make us
and delight in us in all ourindividuality.
(11:43):
I think that that, that was atheme that I, that I saw
underlying everything was, um,just keep pushing the
counterfeits, keep pushing thecounterfeits because.
The enemy quote unquote Godhimself wants them to really be
happy But if we can distractthem with our counterfeits, then
(12:06):
we can keep them from that.
Kat Lewis (12:08):
Yeah, I think um that the relevance of this It's a
novel to a modern audience isunderstanding the psychology of
evil and how evil is not foryou.
Like there's so much in thisworld that will tell, that will
sell you the counterfeit and saythat it's healthy, right?
That'll sell you the nastymolding McDonald's cheeseburger
(12:30):
and say that it's, you know,it's a superfood, right?
And, um,
Micah Leydorf (12:35):
And I'll sell you a hamburger and tell you it's
beef.
Melissa Grace (12:37):
Doesn't even have to be a super beef, just beef.
Kat Lewis (12:40):
Exactly.
And for the modern audience thatdoes not just want to be told
what to do, they want tounderspeak, they want to
understand, you know, why acertain course of action is good
or bad.
Don't dabble in evil, but dounderstand what evil's priority
is.
And priority is not your wealth.
It's not your thriving.
It's not your prosperity.
(13:01):
And I just think that there's alot of intellect in how these
demons are.
They understand what motivatesus.
They understand what motivatesGod.
They understand what motivatesSatan.
And you're like, demons ain'tdumb.
But the quote that stood out tome, there were so many, there
were so many.
To be honest, I felt like everyother chapter I needed to get on
TikTok and just like rant.
But I was like, no, Kat, controlyourself, get through it, make
(13:24):
it through.
But the one that I thought wasmost telling is, um, It's a
quote that says,"It is funny howmortals always picture us as
putting things into their minds.
In reality, our best work isdone by keeping things out".
Yes.
(13:45):
And I just think that it's very,that, that For all the
generations that have thesebarriers up towards, you know,
religion, they have thesebarriers up towards faith.
We think that that makes us.
More evolved than thangenerations of the past, right?
The fact that we have looked atreligion and we found it lacking
and therefore we put up thesebarriers and we just forget the
(14:08):
very simple premise of the Biblethat says.
"Idleness is the devil'splayground".
You put up barriers because youthink that it's a sign of
control, but really you'recreating barriers around the
nothingness of your personaltheology that doesn't exist.
And that is exactly where thesedemons are thriving.
(14:29):
We're not dripping, you know,um, Puritanism or purity culture
to you.
We actually, we're, we actuallylove it that your mind, your
spiritual plane is an empty,fluffy cloud, right?
That's what we like.
We like clouds around here.
It's better to have questionsthan to subscribe to
(14:49):
nothingness.
Hmm.
Laurel Thomas (14:52):
Well, that goes into, of course, this is very
short, but, uh,"For suspicionoften creates what it suspects".
And it's talking about, Ooh,that's good.
Good suspicion.
I and you know, the whole thingthat so often in relationships,
relationships can be so good andso valuable, but you bring
(15:15):
suspicion in, or you bringoffense in or hurt feelings.
And all of a sudden, it doesn'tmatter how intellectual you are.
You are operating on a planethat agrees with the accuser of
the brethren.
And it doesn't matter how smartwe are, or whether we can make
(15:37):
it all the way through screwtape letters, we're, we're
immediately in a snare.
Kat Lewis (15:44):
So, and just this idea that we think that
suspicion Is an indication ofour ability to sniff out, right?
Sniff out the lie or sniff outthe missing piece, but you're
like, no, the more, the more youwalk through this life,
skeptical and cynical, the moreyou'll find exactly what you're
(16:05):
looking for.
Laurel Thomas (16:06):
Well, I think about sometimes we, that we have
a wash over our minds that we'renot aware of, and a lot of times
it comes even generationally.
So, my mom was divorced in theearly 60s, and she was, it was
an awful marriage, you know, itwas 10 years, it was bad.
(16:27):
So, I remember just recently.
I heard a question and it had todo with an accusation and
basically I was like, Oh mygosh, the same accusing voice
that I hear over and over in mymind is what my mother heard
(16:49):
over and so I was raised underthat paradigm that you Uh, you
can be as careful as you wantto, but it's not enough.
Or basically, I don't know howto say an accusing, uh, accusing
spirit, but it is, it isbasically just a mean kind of
(17:13):
thing.
It condemns other people.
It condemns you.
It, it, it's a response.
It was a response on her part totrauma and shame.
So, to me, that was a stratagemof the enemy that was unveiled.
Melissa Grace (17:30):
And that's what I feel like that that that hits
the nail on the head about justthe beauty of this book Just
that it does help us see The thelenses that we look through
Micah Leydorf (17:47):
So when we talk about craft, right.
And we talk about like, whatdoes CS, what does this book do?
What is The Screwtape LetterssWhat aspects of the craft of
writing was exceptionally welldone in this book?
I mean, the first thing thatcomes to my mind is.
Voice.
Right.
But, uh, but what are your guysthoughts?
(18:09):
I mean, it's a little bitdifferent because it is an
epistolary style.
So there really is only onevoice, but, um, and again, I
said it was originally writtenas multiple articles, so it
doesn't have the same flow ofstory, but what do you feel like
are the aspects of craft that C.
(18:31):
S.
Lewis I
Laurel Thomas (18:32):
think he had to have a community that he talked
to about this.
I have a hard time believingthat all of this genius just
came from a solitary man.
Think that probably had acommunity.
They talked about things likethis.
Oh yeah.
Micah Leydorf (18:47):
We do know the Inklings is a really famous, um,
group.
They met at a pub in Oxfordcalled, um, the Eagle and the
Child, or the Bird and the Babywas its little nickname and it
was J.
R.
R.
Tolkien and, um, C.
S.
Lewis and a handful of othercontemporary writers.
And actually this book isactually, um, dedicated to J.
(19:09):
R.
R.
Tolkien, and they had veryspirited debates, not
necessarily about this, butabout their, their fantasies.
They had different ideas offantasy writing and what was
appropriate.
I think it's well known that,um, Tolkien did not like the
Chronicles of Narnia
Kat Lewis (19:25):
at all.
Micah Leydorf (19:27):
They were super childish and, you know,
overrated for children versusthe tomes that are, you know,
the Lord of the Rings.
So, but I think those very andalso, I mean, it's less well
known.
I think that Tolkien was veryinfluential in Lewis's
conversion.
So Lewis was a absolutelyadamant atheist.
(19:52):
He left his faith at age 15 anddid not come back to the church
until age 32.
And if in his, um, biography,Surprised By Joy, he actually
refers to himself as the mostreluctant convert, but he came
like kicking and screaming tothe faith.
Then.
And like I say, Tolkien was abig part of that.
(20:13):
So you're exactly right, Laurel,in that, um, there was a
community.
And so I, I bet you he wasreading, Hey, this is my latest
chapter.
What do you guys actually, okay.
That's going to make me actuallylike have to read this funny
little quote.
This is for all the authors outthere, right?
Because, um, he makes a littlenod to us and probably to
(20:34):
himself and to his fellowinklings as well.
He says, um, they're talkingabout it's so important to keep
people from actually doinganything.
So, it said,"it remains toconsider how can we can retrieve
this disaster.
The great thing is to preventhis doing anything, as long as
he does not convert it intoaction.
It does not matter how much hethinks about his new repentance.
(20:57):
Let the brute wallow in it.
Let him, if he has any bent thatway, Even write a book about
it".
That is often an excellent wayof sterilizing the seeds, which
the enemy plants in a humansoul.
Let him do anything but act.
So, and then it goes down alittle bit longer and then it
says,"the more he feels withoutacting, the less he will ever be
(21:22):
able to act.
And in the long run, the less hewill be able to feel."
Melissa Grace (21:27):
Wow.
Kat Lewis (21:28):
Yeah.
I think that one of the thingsthat, uh, C.
S.
Lewis does so well, and it'ssomething that we've touched on
with some of the other heavybooks that we've read, is his
use of humor, right?
I mean, you cannot read thisbook without evaluating your
life at, at a basic level.
And it's hard.
It would feel very preachy if itwas just these demons, you know,
(21:51):
you know, listing out or if itwould feel, it would feel very
un, unnatural if these demonswere just, you know, debating
across the table.
And this idea of like, thesedemons are like, kind of
laughing at us.
And it creates a lot ofmomentum.
Like you're kind of, For me, Iwas reading for the next
(22:12):
humorous bit, you know what Imean?
Like I was like, okay, when ishe going to drop a zinger?
But then also I got very, Ibecame very indignant, quite
indignant, actually, at how muchthese demons were laughing at
us.
I was like, now wait just aminute, Woodworm or Wormwood, or
whatever your name is.
The fact that, you know, in themoment, you can be convicted and
(22:35):
still laugh, right?
That that is skill.
That is skill.
Micah Leydorf (22:39):
I think you're exactly right.
Kat.
That is definitely somethingthat he is so masterful at.
And I think it's what makes thisagain, this perennial
bestseller.
If it wasn't humorous, if hewasn't so clever, if it wasn't
so witty.
It would not stick with us theway
Kat Lewis (22:54):
it would just, it would land like a sermon would
land.
That's right.
Melissa Grace (22:56):
And just a long, well, then I think another
aspect of his talent is, this issomething that was very poignant
that stood out to me.
To bring in these things thatagain, point back to the love of
(23:17):
God.
And, uh, let's see.
Oh, um.
Just reading this quote"when thecreation of man was first Muted
and when even at that stage theenemy again, that's God Freely
confessed that he foresaw acertain episode about a cross
our father", Very that's thedevil"very naturally sought an
(23:40):
interview and asked for anexplanation The enemy gave no
reply except for a to producethe cock and bull story about
disinterested love, which he hasbeen circulating ever since.
This our father naturally couldnot accept.
He implored the enemy to lay hiscards on the table and gave him
every opportunity.
He admitted that he felt a realanxiety to know the secret, the
(24:05):
secret in the previous passageabout why he would care so much
about humans.
And the enemy replied,"I wishwith all my heart that you did".
And to me, that just, that wasjust such a poignant moment.
I just thought he did such agood job.
Kat Lewis (24:24):
That's just very interesting how, like, if he's
going to allow an interview withthe ultimate enemy, right.
Who he has declared as hisenemy, how much more willing is
he?
To, you know, grant you accessto himself, right?
You, who he tells you, he lovesyou, right?
Micah Leydorf (24:40):
yeah, yeah, well, this it's interesting you found
that scene so poignant, Melissa,because, um, it kind of leads
into one of our other questionsthat we always like to ask here
at Stories That Change Us aboutthe visceral moments, name it a
story that's Um, a moment in thestory that stood out with this
rural relief and explain thestorytelling techniques that
help us to be a successfulscene.
(25:01):
And again, you might think,okay, with this epistolary
style, it's difficult to createa scene, but that's an example
right there of a scene.
And I will just kind of throwout there just for good measure,
because you mentioned.
Um, waiting into theologicalwaters Kat that, um, dangerous
stuff.
Well, this is fiction.
I say that with my own book,because I heard a critique from
(25:25):
someone recently and they said,I don't believe that demons talk
that way to each other.
And I'm like, Uh, yeah, I don'tbelieve that either.
It's fiction, it's satire, it'sa literary device.
So I don't think that justbecause C.
S.
Lewis wrote that, I don't thinkthat he's actually saying that
(25:47):
that Jesus and the devil, or Godand the devil do talk that way
to one another.
So just a caveat for everyoneout there.
But that's the beauty offiction.
I mean, that's the beauty ofstory is that we can allegory,
yeah.
That we can discuss thesethings.
It gives us a, a literarydevice.
It gives us a way to kind oflook at these things in a
different way.
Melissa Grace (26:07):
Well, my moment that, just stood out, it's the
very last chapter.
And, um, all the letters to thejunior demon Wormwood are okay,
trying to coach him intosnagging this one soul.
And after, you know, the endresult, and I won't tell you
(26:29):
just in case, you know, forspoilers, but, um, He says, uh,
how mistakenly now that all islost, you come whimpering to ask
me whether the terms ofaffection in which I address you
meant nothing from thebeginning.
Far from it.
Rest assured, my love for youand your love for me are as like
as two peas.
(26:49):
I have always desired you as youpitiful fool desired me.
The difference is that I am thestronger.
I think they will give you to menow or a bit of you.
Love you?
Why yes, as a teeny littlemorsel as ever I grew fat on.
I mean, to me it just, justencapsulated this Screwtape's
(27:10):
character perfectly.
Kat Lewis (27:13):
Um, a moment that stood out in visceral relief for
me is when Screwtape wasaddressing the issue of like
pleasure, right?
And you kind of mentioned thisearlier, Melissa, about how like
God's a God who wants us to behappy.
The enemy, AKA God wants us tobe happy.
He wants us to enjoy our lives.
And this moment, really, justreally struck me.
(27:34):
And I kept going back to thispassage, but it says,"Never
forget that when we are dealingwith any pleasure in its healthy
and normal and satisfying form,we are, in a sense, on the
enemy's", God's,"ground.
I know we have won many a soulthrough pleasure.
All the same, it is hisinvention, not ours.
(27:54):
He made all the pleasures.
All our research so far has notenabled us to produce one.
All we can do is to encouragethe humans to take the pleasures
which our enemy has produced attimes or in any ways in every
degree which he has forbidden.
And, um, in a, uh, I think Idon't want to use a word so
(28:17):
strong as a hedonistic culture,but we might, you know, chew on
that.
Um, this idea that like, thegood things, enjoyment, dancing,
music, sex, food, like those aregifts from God, right?
Satan has not created a singleding dang one of them.
(28:40):
And that was revelation I thinkit changes your ability to make
a different choice, right?
Laurel Thomas (28:47):
Yes, really profound.
Melissa Grace (28:48):
Yeah, and it there's what I can't find it
right now, but there is.
There's a place in, um,Screwtape Letters that, um,
Screwtape says about the enemy,Father God, at heart, he's a
hedonist.
Right.
And at first that just made mego, what?
Micah Leydorf (29:09):
What the demons say is not reliable.
Unreliable.
Talk about literary devices.
Laurel Thomas (29:22):
I think there's a, yeah, I, my favorite one, I
don't know what's my favorite,but I thought it was
interesting.
It's almost at the end.
"All said and done, my friends,it will be an ill day for us.
If what most humans mean byreligion ever vanishes from the
earth, it can send us the trulydelicious sins".
(29:42):
So, I mean, I think that there'sa Greek mindset Where you know,
it's all it has to all be spiritbecause if it's not spirit,
that's not holy But that's neverthe way God thought God was the
Hebrew God And the Hebrew Godbelieved that it was spirit,
soul, and body, that one wasn'tbetter than the other or more
holy than the other, that thewhole package was purchased by a
(30:07):
price of the blood of his son,and that the whole package would
live as a demonstration of hisgoodness.
So, yeah, when we get allinvolved in rules and laws and,
you know, I sent my, so I'm,this is, sorry, Mary, I'm not
call you out here.
Just a little, my little sister,I sent her a pair of jeans.
(30:29):
And she said for birthday, shesaid, I can wear these if I stop
eating dessert.
And I said, I'm returning themnow.
Because you know, there is a joyto living that I think we tend
to say, no, it's not spiritualenough.
(30:49):
Isn't it spiritual enough?
And yet, it's plenty spiritualto have a cup of hot tea with a
friend.
Melissa Grace (30:57):
And I feel like I can just hear Screwtape saying
something to the effect of, um,Yes, um, and that's why we're
so, you know, as, as, you know,Satan and his cohorts were so
against that.
We don't want you to see thatGod is truly interested in, you
(31:22):
know, your, your friendships andyou know, just you being fully
yourself and fully enjoyingyourself and fully, you You
know, doing what he put you onthis earth to do.
Um, and that's why we are sobusy about corrupting and, you
know, trying to take, you know,like a good friendship and twist
(31:45):
it into something that is notholy.
Micah Leydorf (31:49):
So here's a quote from Screwtape saying about
Wormwood's Blunders.
He said,"You allowed the patientto read a book he really
enjoyed, because he enjoyed itand not in order to make clever
remarks about it to his newfriends.
And in the second place, youallowed him to walk to the old
mill and have tea there, a walkthrough the country, which he
(32:09):
really likes and taken alone.
In other words, He's You allowedhim to real positive pleasures.
Were you so ignorant?
So as not to see the danger inthis".
So I think that's what you'resaying.
It's all so good.
It's hard to take a little bitbecause it's just such a good
job of just saying this over andover again.
(32:29):
And the thing about CS Lewis ishe's just such a wordsmith and
he's just such a brilliant mindthat he says all these super
complicated concepts that soundso simple when he says them.
And yet, then when we try torepeat them, we're all fumbling.
Melissa Grace (32:44):
It takes us 10 minutes to say what he said.
Micah Leydorf (32:47):
But he said so simply.
Yes.
Yes.
So that's what's so beautifuland wonderful about.
Kat Lewis (32:53):
I think a storytelling technique, I think
I can't remember what questionthis is, what number question
this is, Micah, but.
For authors who are writingmaterial that has like spiritual
significance in the sense thatwe are writing about a journey
that we came through and alesson that we came to,
(33:14):
revelation, addressing socialissues or social norms,
whatever.
Um, I can only imagine howweighty his life was as he wrote
this.
I can only imagine.
Um, like Micah, I remember whenyou were writing your novel,
you, one of the things that youcontinually said in critique
(33:37):
group is you're like, I want tobe careful.
Like, I want to steward this.
Like this is, I'm not justwriting this as a rant to the
American church or rant toBelievers, this is, this is an
assignment here.
And, you know, are people goingto read it and they're going to
see that it's women's fictionand that it's fun and da da da
da da.
You took it very seriously.
(33:58):
And I just, I don't know, justas, uh, as an author who gets to
beta read a lot of junk, a lotof things that don't have
eternal significance, you know,and that really aren't putting
positive, healthy theologiesback into the world.
Thinking about C.
(34:18):
S.
Lewis's life, we don't know thespiritual attacks that he was
under.
We don't know, like, we don'tknow the things that he had to
do to keep himself out of thesedeep, dark wells, right?
And I just think about good workand good writing should cost you
something.
And that's not the sexy theologythat you'll see.
(34:39):
For somebody selling theirpackage or their author,
marketing package, they're nottelling you that like, you know,
that you should be pouringsomething out onto the page that
that requires that you havecommunity that helps pull you
back out of, dark places, right?
And maybe not every book, maybenot every book needs to be like
(34:59):
that, but just, you know, I justthink about, okay, what am I
writing?
And being very careful andintentional about what am I
putting back out into society?
Am I just doing anotherCinderella retelling, right?
Or is there a deeper truth thatI want my readers to, to
marinate it?
With, and do I want to be soeloquent with it that it is
(35:19):
simple yet powerful.
The execution of it may not besimple to me.
I may have agonized over, Ithink again, about Micah's
journey, writing her novel.
It went through, I thinkprobably a dozen iterations.
Micah Leydorf (35:31):
It only took seven years.
I
Laurel Thomas (35:35):
was thinking a dozen a little more than a
dozen.
Kat Lewis (35:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're like, you're like, I did.
So I don't know.
I'll just.
I don't think every book needsto be a book that has you on
your therapist bench.
Micah Leydorf (35:47):
But what did they say?
Writing is easy.
Just open a vein and bleed.
Laurel Thomas (35:54):
Isn't that the gist of why we're here?
Stories that change thatchanges.
Melissa Grace (35:59):
Well, then that makes me think, see us.
Okay.
If he's writing things that makeme look in a mirror and say, Oh
my goodness, what am I fallingfor?
What am I?
What I he's revealed somethingto me.
He saw it first.
He saw it in himself first, andhe is being authentic and.
(36:22):
and very vulnerable to share itwith the rest of us so that we
can see it.
Laurel Thomas (36:28):
Yeah, I can remember which one it was.
Um, it could have been PrinceCaspian, but the kids are in a
school that is it's a newexperiment, experimental school,
and these bullies are ruling andreigning because you can't tell
a bully that they're wrong andthat they can't be a bully
(36:49):
because you might hurt theirpsyche.
And I've, you know, he hadsocial commentary even in his
children's novels.
Micah Leydorf (36:58):
He was very much writing from a place of
criticism of the English schoolsystem.
Especially that whole proposal,the screw tapes proposal you
were referring to that was addedas an addendum in 1959.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's what that, that was.
Well, I think we should probablyget to our last question, but
we've been talking about it thisentire time because the last
(37:20):
question is about social truthsand what truths about society or
the human experience areexplored, confirmed, and
challenged in this novel.
And that's basically, all thisnovel is about.
Right?
Right?
Laurel Thomas (37:35):
I think that's true.
Micah Leydorf (37:36):
But, um, and so this, this one has been a little
bit different.
And I, um, appreciate all of youguys being willing to read it.
Because again, it's a little bitchallenging to even call it a
novel, right?
Because it's, you know, it's,it's 31, um, letters.
Um, and, um, but are there anyparticular truths about the
human experience?
Melissa Grace (37:58):
Well, I loved this.
It's kind of in the first thirdof the book; it's him talking
again about, um, to his protege,Screwtape writing to his protege
about how to best capture thissoul.
Um,"This dim uneasiness needscareful handling.
(38:19):
If it gets too strong, it maywake him up and spoil the whole
game.
On the other hand, if yousuppress it entirely, which by
the by the enemy will probablynot allow you to do, we lose an
element in the situation whichcan be turned to good If such a
feeling is allowed to live, Butnot allowed to become
(38:41):
irresistible and flower intoreal repentance.
It has one invaluable tendency.
It increases the patient'sreluctance to think about the
enemy".
And I just, I mean, that was amirror to me.
That was a, that was, that was amoment where I looked in a
mirror and thought, okay I havefelt that dim uneasiness and
(39:03):
ignored it.
Micah Leydorf (39:04):
It's made you not want to write about God.
Melissa Grace (39:07):
Yeah, that's made me.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, you know, by his grace,it's been a long time, but I do
remember that part of myjourney.
Kat Lewis (39:16):
I think that what you're talking about goes
straight into the truth that Ihave kind of plucked and that I
will be circulating amongst myfriends is he says that, um, a
moderated religion is as good asno religion at all.
Like you think about this dimuneasiness within religious
culture, where, when we arearound people that we're
(39:39):
uncomfortable with, or that weOn a basic level, fundamentally
disagree with, but we don't knowhow to interact with them.
Our initial tendency isavoidance, right?
Is to let the dumb uneasinesskind of fester, but we never
actually like look at, look itin the face and say, okay, let's
deal with this thing.
From Baptist and Methodist andKatholic and all the little ways
(40:03):
that like, You know, we lookacross the table at each other
and we'll be very polite to eachother's face in the back of our
mind, we'll go, my views on, youknow, sex, drugs, and rock and
roll are just more superior andthey're more evolved and they're
more holy.
I think it's interesting how hedoesn't say that religion is
bad.
And isn't it so interesting thatmoderated religion is, is a tool
(40:24):
of the enemy?
Micah Leydorf (40:26):
It reminds me what you're talking about, of a
quote by another wonderfulEnglish author, G.
K.
Chesterton, say Christianity hasnot been Found wanting it's not
been tried and found wanting ithas been not tried.
I'm probably butchering thatquote, but, but, um, but that's
(40:46):
the same thing.
It's like, it's, oh, it'ssomething masquerading as the
authentic, message, the gospelmessage.
And there's a, you know, that'sa counterfeit.
That's what.
The demons and Satan are mastersat as, um, deception and again,
providing counterfeits.
And they don't want you toexamine too closely to see that
(41:06):
that's not really the source ofpleasure.
You know, that's not the real
Laurel Thomas (41:11):
I think that, you know, one of the things that I
really because it's in thenegative view and from the
liar's view, this is what, whatI was just.
thinking about.
There is therefore now nocondemnation, no guilty verdict,
(41:32):
no punishment for those who arein Christ Jesus.
For the law of the spirit oflife in Christ Jesus has set you
free from the law of sin anddeath.
For what the law could not do,that is overcome sin and remove
its penalty and its power.
Being weakened by the flesh, Goddid.
(41:54):
He sent his own son in thelikeness of sinful man and as an
offering for sin.
Okay, so, do we believe thatthere's no more condemnation?
I think that some of the, what Ihear in Screwtape Letters is the
largeness of the goodness ofGod.
(42:15):
is not and even if someone saysthey believe that there's going
to be caveats well yes you'reyou're not condemned if you
don't do this and this and thisand
Kat Lewis (42:27):
they provide a laundry list
Laurel Thomas (42:28):
this and this and this then so actually i am
condemned no the bible says i'mnot condemned and when we look
at that paradigm of comingbefore god washed and cleansed
wow That eliminates a lot of theenemy's noise.
(42:50):
It's a paradigm.
And so I think the wholeparadigm of evil is to get, I
mean, he says at the very end isto get into that religious
mindset of, you know, self, youknow, am I holy enough?
Am I, have I slipped here?
And I believe in being careful,you know, in our walk with the
(43:13):
Lord.
But the bottom line is he saidhe purchased for us a free life.
Micah Leydorf (43:19):
Yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons why in
my novel, I added the angelvoice because, you know, I, I
love the demon voice, like Isay, as a tool to help us think
differently and help revealthese, these, but then it felt
like, Oh, we need to hear.
We need to hear that message oftruth, right?
We need to, I actually needsomeone to say to me, Oh, she is
(43:41):
a child of God.
She is beloved.
Like I want to have those wordslike wash over me and therefore
wash over my reader.
Yes, exactly.
So it's like, maybe we need tohave it a little bit more
explicit.
Melissa Grace (43:54):
That's one of my favorite parts of it.
Micah Leydorf (43:55):
It's just that that's a lovely part.
I love it.
And I do feel like I need to,like, fix my Chesterton quote
because I butchered it so bad.
Like, I looked up here.
The Christian ideal has not beentried and found wanting.
It has been found difficult andleft untried.
So there's the actual quote fromG.
(44:16):
K.
Chesterton.
Um, so again, but, uh, When wefind that, that real thing.
And, um, I, I think, I hope thatthis book has been edifying and
life changing and I actuallyhave avoided it for the last
seven years because I didn'twant to be overly influenced
when I was writing mine.
(44:36):
So it was kind of nice to getback to it.
A little reminder of C.
S.
Lewis's brilliance.
And I hope maybe we can exploreanother C.
S.
Lewis book at some point.
So thank you so much for joiningus.
I hope you have enjoyed thisepisode of Stories That Change
Us and our focus on TheScrewtape Letters and C.
S.
Lewis, and I will just throw outthere, if you are interested in
(44:58):
the updated version, um, mynovel's name again is The Unseen
Battle, An Unexpected Love Storyby Micah Leydorf.
Love to have you join in any ofthe discussions about that or to
pick up a copy at Amazon or mywebsite.
We'll see you next time.
Bye guys.
and welcome to Stories That Change Us, our
sixth episode of the podcast.
I'm Micah Leydorf, and I'm herewith my wonderful writer
friends, I'm Melissa Grace, KatLewis, Laurel Thomas.
And today I am so excited thatwe are reading one of my very
favorite of all time books bymy, one of my very favorite all
(00:23):
time authors, The ScrewtapeLetterss by C.
S.
Lewis.
So, just a little bit ofbackground.
If you don't know who C.
S.
Lewis is.
I guess there might be somepeople who might not know one of
the best authors of the 20thcentury, especially Christian
authors of the 20th century.
This book was written in 1942.
(00:44):
It was written before his mostpopular work of the Chronicles
of Narnia, his children'sseries.
It was originally published as,um, articles in The Guardian
from May to November in 1941,and then published as a book in
1942.
It's in a, what they call itepistolary novel.
(01:04):
So done in letters from afictional satirical demon
,Screwtape, to his nephew,Wormwood.
Throughout it, it givescommentary on modern culture and
the nature of temptation and allsorts of things.
And, um, we'll just start offwith, um, Our question that we
(01:28):
like to ask the very first islike, what quotes stood out to
you ladies I'm assuming you guyshave all read it before.
Kat Lewis (01:35):
No, this was my first time slogging through The
Screwtape Letterss
Micah Leydorf (01:40):
Oh, Kat.
Come on, you enjoyed it.
Kat Lewis (01:44):
To be honest, I did enjoy it.
I just, um, it was not a bookthat I could read fluidly.
I had to read it and thenprocess it and then come back
and read it and process it.
And I have filled up a journalwith all of the things learned
and, you know, assumed from TheScrewtape Letters.
So I did enjoy it, but it is,um, it was not, it was not like
(02:07):
a read in one sitting kind ofbook.
Micah Leydorf (02:10):
Right, right.
You know, it's actuallyinteresting that you say that,
Kat, because I have a personaltheory about it.
I feel like most Christians haveheard of it and probably have
read some of it.
But I think very few people haveactually read all of it because
of exactly what you said.
Like you read one letter andyou're like, Oh, okay, that was
(02:31):
a lot.
I'm going to need to sit withthat for a while.
And, you guys know, I actuallyhave come out with my first
novel.
Actually I just published it atthe end of last year and it's
kind of getting a little bit ofsteam right now.
Yeah, I know I actually haveover a hundred women, um, will
be starting on Wednesday in aLinton, um, discussion group.
(02:54):
That's amazing.
All across the country and inCanada and England.
But how that's relevant to theScrewtape Letters is that my
book wasn't inspired by TheScrewtape Letterss, but in one
of our WriterCon conferences,that's where we all connected,
um, I got some input from ReneeGutteridge, one of our, um,
teachers there.
(03:15):
Some, you know, personal one onone critique.
And she's like, um, you know,you need a little bit of plot
and, you know, like morecharacter arc and development.
And I'm like, Oh, no, this is,this is not fiction.
This is just really a clever wayto write an essay.
And she's like, well, unless youbelieve that demons write
letters, like you're writingfiction.
(03:36):
And so that was when I was like,before mine was kind of more
straight, like Screwtape.
I thought, oh, I just wantsomebody to write, and I love
this book so much.
I want someone to writesomething from, I feel like
women are probably tempteddifferent than men.
And I feel like Americans aretempted different from English
people in the 1940s and so Iwanted something up to date.
(03:58):
But mine is quite different nowbecause it has um, It does have
plot and it does have threecharacters, Angel's voice and
then a woman's journal to drivethat action forward, which are
all these techniques that Ilearned partially from going to
these conferences and hangingout with you ladies.
So, so like I say, so my book isnamed The Unseen Battle: An
Unexpected Love Story.
(04:18):
And like I say, it's very muchinspired from The Screwtape
Letters but like I say, what yousaid, Kat, is exactly kind of
the motivation was, Oh, okay, weneed something that actually
keeps people going from chapterto chapter and they don't just
stop.
It makes it a little bit easierand not quite so condensed.
How about you, Melissa?
What did you, what was yourfirst impressions?
Melissa Grace (04:38):
Um, I loved it because I just feel like the
voice is so very clever.
Just like, I think with, um,your novel, Micah, I always just
loved, I loved the, the voices,you know, the demon voices that
sounds bad, but, um, and theangel voices, you know, the,
the, their style.
I, I just think they're soentertaining.
(05:01):
You portray the characters withhow the, the angel voice is so
very full of grace and the demonvoice is so full of sarcasm and
derogatory insults and thingslike that.
And, um, that, that was what Ienjoyed about the original also.
(05:24):
Just, just the voice.
I
Micah Leydorf (05:26):
learned there's a term for that.
It's demonic ventriloquism isapparently the term that he
coined this literary device andit's been replicated in at
least, you know, over a dozendifferent books since then.
But I think that's what you'rereferring to.
Laurel Thomas (05:43):
It's interesting if you read the introduction,
you get a clear view of C.
S.
Lewis and he said, it's not goodto focus on evil and keep in
mind that everything the evilone says is a lie.
So, I thought that really, itwas crafted so brilliantly that
(06:08):
everything is a lie.
And he talked about doctrine,and basically doctrine is just,
what do we believe?
And how close is it to revealtruth?
And so, of course, that is whatshapes us, what we believe, and
therefore it shapes our cultureat some point.
So, um, anyway, that's a longanswer, but I thought the
(06:31):
introduction to me Help me readthe rest of it.
Cause I was like, I don't reallycare, you know, I don't really
care what this demon has to say,but the whole shaping of what we
believe, I think was the impetusfor this book.
Melissa Grace (06:52):
Yeah, he said that that was so there's a,
there is a, my, uh, additionthat I read, there is a toast at
the end.
And it was written like 20 or 30years later.
And he says in the littledescription or introduction, I
did not want to go back to, asyou know, they put the coin, the
(07:16):
phrase demon ventriloquism.
I did not want to do that.
They've been asking me to writethis followup for a very long
time.
And I didn't want to, because hedidn't want to hang out in that
headspace.
But, um, It's, it's all, it'svery good.
And, and I, I think that is whatI find really fascinating about
(07:37):
the concept is that when I readthings in this book and I say,
Oh, that's a lie I am fallingfor.
Absolutely.
I mean, that is what makes itstill powerful after all these
years.
Micah Leydorf (07:56):
I think that's what it's all about.
It's all about deception andit's all about recognizing the
lies that you believe.
And just like you said, Laurel,it's about what we believe, but
we don't even know what webelieve.
That's what the demons are, aresaying.
It's like, don't let themactually think that they're
actually believing this becauseif they do, well, the gig is up.
(08:20):
Um, so I don't know what quotesyou guys picked out, but like
one of my favorites.
I mean, the hard thing aboutthis is it's all so good that I
hate to be like, why don't Ijust take out that small part
and read this whole letter, butI will not read the whole
letter.
But there's a kind of famous onethat says, I now see that I
spent most of my life in doingneither what I ought nor what I
(08:45):
like".
Like, so that's kind of earlieron.
And then it concludes with,"Itdoes not matter how small the
sins are provided.
that their cumulative effect isto edge the man away from the
light and out into the nothing.
Murder is no better than cardsif cards can do the trick.
Indeed, the safest road to hellis the gradual one, the gentle
(09:10):
slope, soft underfoot, withoutsudden turnings, without
milestones, without signposts,your affectionate uncle screw
tape".
Um, so whenever I had the ideaof writing my own book, the kind
of the impetus of it wasactually this idea of, Oh, okay.
Like to think like a strategist,it wasn't, um, it was, I was
(09:34):
going to take an action that Iwas convinced was good.
And I thought, Oh, it wasn'tthat I was going to do it, but I
thought it was so good.
And I thought, Oh, if I was, ademon, or if I was Satan, of
course, that's what I would do.
I wouldn't say, Oh, hey, here,come get some candy and get in
the van.
And dear little girl, you know,
Melissa Grace (09:54):
Help me find my puppy.
Micah Leydorf (09:54):
Come do this evil thing.
It would be like, no, you know,this is the good thing.
And so I just thought, well, youknow, maybe if I started
thinking that way, that would behelpful to reveal these lies.
Cause you know what they say,like on G.
I.
Joe or whatever, Knowledge ishalf the battle.
Once you, once you unveil it,you're halfway there.
So, are there any quotes, otherquotes that stood out to you
(10:16):
guys?
Melissa Grace (10:17):
Well, I loved this one.
It's, it's, Not far away fromthe one that you just quoted.
Um, again, this is Screwtapewriting to his nephew, the
Enderdemon.
Of course, I know that, oh, and,um, for anyone not familiar with
the book, the enemy is God.
Right.
Um,"Of course I know that theenemy also wants to detach men
(10:40):
from themselves, but in adifferent way, remember always
that he really likes the littlevermin and sets an observed
value on the distinctness ofevery one of them.
When he talks of their losingtheir selves, he only means
abandoning the clamor of selfwill.
Once they have done that hereally gives them back all their
(11:02):
personality and both.
I'm afraid sincerely that whenthey are wholly his, they will
be more themselves than ever.
Hence, while he is delighted tosee them sacrificing even their
innocent wills to his, he hatesto see them drifting away from
their own nature for any otherreason." That to me, that's just
(11:23):
a very grace filled andwonderful description of God's
affection for us as individuals.
It's very personal.
It's very individual that hereally did, you know, make us
and delight in us in all ourindividuality.
(11:43):
I think that that, that was atheme that I, that I saw
underlying everything was, um,just keep pushing the
counterfeits, keep pushing thecounterfeits because.
The enemy quote unquote Godhimself wants them to really be
happy But if we can distractthem with our counterfeits, then
(12:06):
we can keep them from that.
Kat Lewis (12:08):
Yeah, I think um that the relevance of this It's a
novel to a modern audience isunderstanding the psychology of
evil and how evil is not foryou.
Like there's so much in thisworld that will tell, that will
sell you the counterfeit and saythat it's healthy, right?
That'll sell you the nastymolding McDonald's cheeseburger
(12:30):
and say that it's, you know,it's a superfood, right?
And, um,
Micah Leydorf (12:35):
And I'll sell you a hamburger and tell you it's
beef.
Melissa Grace (12:37):
Doesn't even have to be a super beef, just beef.
Kat Lewis (12:40):
Exactly.
And for the modern audience thatdoes not just want to be told
what to do, they want tounderspeak, they want to
understand, you know, why acertain course of action is good
or bad.
Don't dabble in evil, but dounderstand what evil's priority
is.
And priority is not your wealth.
It's not your thriving.
It's not your prosperity.
(13:01):
And I just think that there's alot of intellect in how these
demons are.
They understand what motivatesus.
They understand what motivatesGod.
They understand what motivatesSatan.
And you're like, demons ain'tdumb.
But the quote that stood out tome, there were so many, there
were so many.
To be honest, I felt like everyother chapter I needed to get on
TikTok and just like rant.
But I was like, no, Kat, controlyourself, get through it, make
(13:24):
it through.
But the one that I thought wasmost telling is, um, It's a
quote that says,"It is funny howmortals always picture us as
putting things into their minds.
In reality, our best work isdone by keeping things out".
Yes.
(13:45):
And I just think that it's very,that, that For all the
generations that have thesebarriers up towards, you know,
religion, they have thesebarriers up towards faith.
We think that that makes us.
More evolved than thangenerations of the past, right?
The fact that we have looked atreligion and we found it lacking
and therefore we put up thesebarriers and we just forget the
(14:08):
very simple premise of the Biblethat says.
"Idleness is the devil'splayground".
You put up barriers because youthink that it's a sign of
control, but really you'recreating barriers around the
nothingness of your personaltheology that doesn't exist.
And that is exactly where thesedemons are thriving.
(14:29):
We're not dripping, you know,um, Puritanism or purity culture
to you.
We actually, we're, we actuallylove it that your mind, your
spiritual plane is an empty,fluffy cloud, right?
That's what we like.
We like clouds around here.
It's better to have questionsthan to subscribe to
(14:49):
nothingness.
Hmm.
Laurel Thomas (14:52):
Well, that goes into, of course, this is very
short, but, uh,"For suspicionoften creates what it suspects".
And it's talking about, Ooh,that's good.
Good suspicion.
I and you know, the whole thingthat so often in relationships,
relationships can be so good andso valuable, but you bring
(15:15):
suspicion in, or you bringoffense in or hurt feelings.
And all of a sudden, it doesn'tmatter how intellectual you are.
You are operating on a planethat agrees with the accuser of
the brethren.
And it doesn't matter how smartwe are, or whether we can make
(15:37):
it all the way through screwtape letters, we're, we're
immediately in a snare.
Kat Lewis (15:44):
So, and just this idea that we think that
suspicion Is an indication ofour ability to sniff out, right?
Sniff out the lie or sniff outthe missing piece, but you're
like, no, the more, the more youwalk through this life,
skeptical and cynical, the moreyou'll find exactly what you're
(16:05):
looking for.
Laurel Thomas (16:06):
Well, I think about sometimes we, that we have
a wash over our minds that we'renot aware of, and a lot of times
it comes even generationally.
So, my mom was divorced in theearly 60s, and she was, it was
an awful marriage, you know, itwas 10 years, it was bad.
(16:27):
So, I remember just recently.
I heard a question and it had todo with an accusation and
basically I was like, Oh mygosh, the same accusing voice
that I hear over and over in mymind is what my mother heard
(16:49):
over and so I was raised underthat paradigm that you Uh, you
can be as careful as you wantto, but it's not enough.
Or basically, I don't know howto say an accusing, uh, accusing
spirit, but it is, it isbasically just a mean kind of
(17:13):
thing.
It condemns other people.
It condemns you.
It, it, it's a response.
It was a response on her part totrauma and shame.
So, to me, that was a stratagemof the enemy that was unveiled.
Melissa Grace (17:30):
And that's what I feel like that that that hits
the nail on the head about justthe beauty of this book Just
that it does help us see The thelenses that we look through
Micah Leydorf (17:47):
So when we talk about craft, right.
And we talk about like, whatdoes CS, what does this book do?
What is The Screwtape LetterssWhat aspects of the craft of
writing was exceptionally welldone in this book?
I mean, the first thing thatcomes to my mind is.
Voice.
Right.
But, uh, but what are your guysthoughts?
(18:09):
I mean, it's a little bitdifferent because it is an
epistolary style.
So there really is only onevoice, but, um, and again, I
said it was originally writtenas multiple articles, so it
doesn't have the same flow ofstory, but what do you feel like
are the aspects of craft that C.
(18:31):
S.
Lewis I
Laurel Thomas (18:32):
think he had to have a community that he talked
to about this.
I have a hard time believingthat all of this genius just
came from a solitary man.
Think that probably had acommunity.
They talked about things likethis.
Oh yeah.
Micah Leydorf (18:47):
We do know the Inklings is a really famous, um,
group.
They met at a pub in Oxfordcalled, um, the Eagle and the
Child, or the Bird and the Babywas its little nickname and it
was J.
R.
R.
Tolkien and, um, C.
S.
Lewis and a handful of othercontemporary writers.
And actually this book isactually, um, dedicated to J.
(19:09):
R.
R.
Tolkien, and they had veryspirited debates, not
necessarily about this, butabout their, their fantasies.
They had different ideas offantasy writing and what was
appropriate.
I think it's well known that,um, Tolkien did not like the
Chronicles of Narnia
Kat Lewis (19:25):
at all.
Micah Leydorf (19:27):
They were super childish and, you know,
overrated for children versusthe tomes that are, you know,
the Lord of the Rings.
So, but I think those very andalso, I mean, it's less well
known.
I think that Tolkien was veryinfluential in Lewis's
conversion.
So Lewis was a absolutelyadamant atheist.
(19:52):
He left his faith at age 15 anddid not come back to the church
until age 32.
And if in his, um, biography,Surprised By Joy, he actually
refers to himself as the mostreluctant convert, but he came
like kicking and screaming tothe faith.
Then.
And like I say, Tolkien was abig part of that.
(20:13):
So you're exactly right, Laurel,in that, um, there was a
community.
And so I, I bet you he wasreading, Hey, this is my latest
chapter.
What do you guys actually, okay.
That's going to make me actuallylike have to read this funny
little quote.
This is for all the authors outthere, right?
Because, um, he makes a littlenod to us and probably to
(20:34):
himself and to his fellowinklings as well.
He says, um, they're talkingabout it's so important to keep
people from actually doinganything.
So, it said,"it remains toconsider how can we can retrieve
this disaster.
The great thing is to preventhis doing anything, as long as
he does not convert it intoaction.
It does not matter how much hethinks about his new repentance.
(20:57):
Let the brute wallow in it.
Let him, if he has any bent thatway, Even write a book about
it".
That is often an excellent wayof sterilizing the seeds, which
the enemy plants in a humansoul.
Let him do anything but act.
So, and then it goes down alittle bit longer and then it
says,"the more he feels withoutacting, the less he will ever be
(21:22):
able to act.
And in the long run, the less hewill be able to feel."
Melissa Grace (21:27):
Wow.
Kat Lewis (21:28):
Yeah.
I think that one of the thingsthat, uh, C.
S.
Lewis does so well, and it'ssomething that we've touched on
with some of the other heavybooks that we've read, is his
use of humor, right?
I mean, you cannot read thisbook without evaluating your
life at, at a basic level.
And it's hard.
It would feel very preachy if itwas just these demons, you know,
(21:51):
you know, listing out or if itwould feel, it would feel very
un, unnatural if these demonswere just, you know, debating
across the table.
And this idea of like, thesedemons are like, kind of
laughing at us.
And it creates a lot ofmomentum.
Like you're kind of, For me, Iwas reading for the next
(22:12):
humorous bit, you know what Imean?
Like I was like, okay, when ishe going to drop a zinger?
But then also I got very, Ibecame very indignant, quite
indignant, actually, at how muchthese demons were laughing at
us.
I was like, now wait just aminute, Woodworm or Wormwood, or
whatever your name is.
The fact that, you know, in themoment, you can be convicted and
(22:35):
still laugh, right?
That that is skill.
That is skill.
Micah Leydorf (22:39):
I think you're exactly right.
Kat.
That is definitely somethingthat he is so masterful at.
And I think it's what makes thisagain, this perennial
bestseller.
If it wasn't humorous, if hewasn't so clever, if it wasn't
so witty.
It would not stick with us theway
Kat Lewis (22:54):
it would just, it would land like a sermon would
land.
That's right.
Melissa Grace (22:56):
And just a long, well, then I think another
aspect of his talent is, this issomething that was very poignant
that stood out to me.
To bring in these things thatagain, point back to the love of
(23:17):
God.
And, uh, let's see.
Oh, um.
Just reading this quote"when thecreation of man was first Muted
and when even at that stage theenemy again, that's God Freely
confessed that he foresaw acertain episode about a cross
our father", Very that's thedevil"very naturally sought an
(23:40):
interview and asked for anexplanation The enemy gave no
reply except for a to producethe cock and bull story about
disinterested love, which he hasbeen circulating ever since.
This our father naturally couldnot accept.
He implored the enemy to lay hiscards on the table and gave him
every opportunity.
He admitted that he felt a realanxiety to know the secret, the
(24:05):
secret in the previous passageabout why he would care so much
about humans.
And the enemy replied,"I wishwith all my heart that you did".
And to me, that just, that wasjust such a poignant moment.
I just thought he did such agood job.
Kat Lewis (24:24):
That's just very interesting how, like, if he's
going to allow an interview withthe ultimate enemy, right.
Who he has declared as hisenemy, how much more willing is
he?
To, you know, grant you accessto himself, right?
You, who he tells you, he lovesyou, right?
Micah Leydorf (24:40):
yeah, yeah, well, this it's interesting you found
that scene so poignant, Melissa,because, um, it kind of leads
into one of our other questionsthat we always like to ask here
at Stories That Change Us aboutthe visceral moments, name it a
story that's Um, a moment in thestory that stood out with this
rural relief and explain thestorytelling techniques that
help us to be a successfulscene.
(25:01):
And again, you might think,okay, with this epistolary
style, it's difficult to createa scene, but that's an example
right there of a scene.
And I will just kind of throwout there just for good measure,
because you mentioned.
Um, waiting into theologicalwaters Kat that, um, dangerous
stuff.
Well, this is fiction.
I say that with my own book,because I heard a critique from
(25:25):
someone recently and they said,I don't believe that demons talk
that way to each other.
And I'm like, Uh, yeah, I don'tbelieve that either.
It's fiction, it's satire, it'sa literary device.
So I don't think that justbecause C.
S.
Lewis wrote that, I don't thinkthat he's actually saying that
(25:47):
that Jesus and the devil, or Godand the devil do talk that way
to one another.
So just a caveat for everyoneout there.
But that's the beauty offiction.
I mean, that's the beauty ofstory is that we can allegory,
yeah.
That we can discuss thesethings.
It gives us a, a literarydevice.
It gives us a way to kind oflook at these things in a
different way.
Melissa Grace (26:07):
Well, my moment that, just stood out, it's the
very last chapter.
And, um, all the letters to thejunior demon Wormwood are okay,
trying to coach him intosnagging this one soul.
And after, you know, the endresult, and I won't tell you
(26:29):
just in case, you know, forspoilers, but, um, He says, uh,
how mistakenly now that all islost, you come whimpering to ask
me whether the terms ofaffection in which I address you
meant nothing from thebeginning.
Far from it.
Rest assured, my love for youand your love for me are as like
as two peas.
(26:49):
I have always desired you as youpitiful fool desired me.
The difference is that I am thestronger.
I think they will give you to menow or a bit of you.
Love you?
Why yes, as a teeny littlemorsel as ever I grew fat on.
I mean, to me it just, justencapsulated this Screwtape's
(27:10):
character perfectly.
Kat Lewis (27:13):
Um, a moment that stood out in visceral relief for
me is when Screwtape wasaddressing the issue of like
pleasure, right?
And you kind of mentioned thisearlier, Melissa, about how like
God's a God who wants us to behappy.
The enemy, AKA God wants us tobe happy.
He wants us to enjoy our lives.
And this moment, really, justreally struck me.
(27:34):
And I kept going back to thispassage, but it says,"Never
forget that when we are dealingwith any pleasure in its healthy
and normal and satisfying form,we are, in a sense, on the
enemy's", God's,"ground.
I know we have won many a soulthrough pleasure.
All the same, it is hisinvention, not ours.
(27:54):
He made all the pleasures.
All our research so far has notenabled us to produce one.
All we can do is to encouragethe humans to take the pleasures
which our enemy has produced attimes or in any ways in every
degree which he has forbidden.
And, um, in a, uh, I think Idon't want to use a word so
(28:17):
strong as a hedonistic culture,but we might, you know, chew on
that.
Um, this idea that like, thegood things, enjoyment, dancing,
music, sex, food, like those aregifts from God, right?
Satan has not created a singleding dang one of them.
(28:40):
And that was revelation I thinkit changes your ability to make
a different choice, right?
Laurel Thomas (28:47):
Yes, really profound.
Melissa Grace (28:48):
Yeah, and it there's what I can't find it
right now, but there is.
There's a place in, um,Screwtape Letters that, um,
Screwtape says about the enemy,Father God, at heart, he's a
hedonist.
Right.
And at first that just made mego, what?
Micah Leydorf (29:09):
What the demons say is not reliable.
Unreliable.
Talk about literary devices.
Laurel Thomas (29:22):
I think there's a, yeah, I, my favorite one, I
don't know what's my favorite,but I thought it was
interesting.
It's almost at the end.
"All said and done, my friends,it will be an ill day for us.
If what most humans mean byreligion ever vanishes from the
earth, it can send us the trulydelicious sins".
(29:42):
So, I mean, I think that there'sa Greek mindset Where you know,
it's all it has to all be spiritbecause if it's not spirit,
that's not holy But that's neverthe way God thought God was the
Hebrew God And the Hebrew Godbelieved that it was spirit,
soul, and body, that one wasn'tbetter than the other or more
holy than the other, that thewhole package was purchased by a
(30:07):
price of the blood of his son,and that the whole package would
live as a demonstration of hisgoodness.
So, yeah, when we get allinvolved in rules and laws and,
you know, I sent my, so I'm,this is, sorry, Mary, I'm not
call you out here.
Just a little, my little sister,I sent her a pair of jeans.
(30:29):
And she said for birthday, shesaid, I can wear these if I stop
eating dessert.
And I said, I'm returning themnow.
Because you know, there is a joyto living that I think we tend
to say, no, it's not spiritualenough.
(30:49):
Isn't it spiritual enough?
And yet, it's plenty spiritualto have a cup of hot tea with a
friend.
Melissa Grace (30:57):
And I feel like I can just hear Screwtape saying
something to the effect of, um,Yes, um, and that's why we're
so, you know, as, as, you know,Satan and his cohorts were so
against that.
We don't want you to see thatGod is truly interested in, you
(31:22):
know, your, your friendships andyou know, just you being fully
yourself and fully enjoyingyourself and fully, you You
know, doing what he put you onthis earth to do.
Um, and that's why we are sobusy about corrupting and, you
know, trying to take, you know,like a good friendship and twist
(31:45):
it into something that is notholy.
Micah Leydorf (31:49):
So here's a quote from Screwtape saying about
Wormwood's Blunders.
He said,"You allowed the patientto read a book he really
enjoyed, because he enjoyed itand not in order to make clever
remarks about it to his newfriends.
And in the second place, youallowed him to walk to the old
mill and have tea there, a walkthrough the country, which he
(32:09):
really likes and taken alone.
In other words, He's You allowedhim to real positive pleasures.
Were you so ignorant?
So as not to see the danger inthis".
So I think that's what you'resaying.
It's all so good.
It's hard to take a little bitbecause it's just such a good
job of just saying this over andover again.
(32:29):
And the thing about CS Lewis ishe's just such a wordsmith and
he's just such a brilliant mindthat he says all these super
complicated concepts that soundso simple when he says them.
And yet, then when we try torepeat them, we're all fumbling.
Melissa Grace (32:44):
It takes us 10 minutes to say what he said.
Micah Leydorf (32:47):
But he said so simply.
Yes.
Yes.
So that's what's so beautifuland wonderful about.
Kat Lewis (32:53):
I think a storytelling technique, I think
I can't remember what questionthis is, what number question
this is, Micah, but.
For authors who are writingmaterial that has like spiritual
significance in the sense thatwe are writing about a journey
that we came through and alesson that we came to,
(33:14):
revelation, addressing socialissues or social norms,
whatever.
Um, I can only imagine howweighty his life was as he wrote
this.
I can only imagine.
Um, like Micah, I remember whenyou were writing your novel,
you, one of the things that youcontinually said in critique
(33:37):
group is you're like, I want tobe careful.
Like, I want to steward this.
Like this is, I'm not justwriting this as a rant to the
American church or rant toBelievers, this is, this is an
assignment here.
And, you know, are people goingto read it and they're going to
see that it's women's fictionand that it's fun and da da da
da da.
You took it very seriously.
(33:58):
And I just, I don't know, justas, uh, as an author who gets to
beta read a lot of junk, a lotof things that don't have
eternal significance, you know,and that really aren't putting
positive, healthy theologiesback into the world.
Thinking about C.
(34:18):
S.
Lewis's life, we don't know thespiritual attacks that he was
under.
We don't know, like, we don'tknow the things that he had to
do to keep himself out of thesedeep, dark wells, right?
And I just think about good workand good writing should cost you
something.
And that's not the sexy theologythat you'll see.
(34:39):
For somebody selling theirpackage or their author,
marketing package, they're nottelling you that like, you know,
that you should be pouringsomething out onto the page that
that requires that you havecommunity that helps pull you
back out of, dark places, right?
And maybe not every book, maybenot every book needs to be like
(34:59):
that, but just, you know, I justthink about, okay, what am I
writing?
And being very careful andintentional about what am I
putting back out into society?
Am I just doing anotherCinderella retelling, right?
Or is there a deeper truth thatI want my readers to, to
marinate it?
With, and do I want to be soeloquent with it that it is
(35:19):
simple yet powerful.
The execution of it may not besimple to me.
I may have agonized over, Ithink again, about Micah's
journey, writing her novel.
It went through, I thinkprobably a dozen iterations.
Micah Leydorf (35:31):
It only took seven years.
I
Laurel Thomas (35:35):
was thinking a dozen a little more than a
dozen.
Kat Lewis (35:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're like, you're like, I did.
So I don't know.
I'll just.
I don't think every book needsto be a book that has you on
your therapist bench.
Micah Leydorf (35:47):
But what did they say?
Writing is easy.
Just open a vein and bleed.
Laurel Thomas (35:54):
Isn't that the gist of why we're here?
Stories that change thatchanges.
Melissa Grace (35:59):
Well, then that makes me think, see us.
Okay.
If he's writing things that makeme look in a mirror and say, Oh
my goodness, what am I fallingfor?
What am I?
What I he's revealed somethingto me.
He saw it first.
He saw it in himself first, andhe is being authentic and.
(36:22):
and very vulnerable to share itwith the rest of us so that we
can see it.
Laurel Thomas (36:28):
Yeah, I can remember which one it was.
Um, it could have been PrinceCaspian, but the kids are in a
school that is it's a newexperiment, experimental school,
and these bullies are ruling andreigning because you can't tell
a bully that they're wrong andthat they can't be a bully
(36:49):
because you might hurt theirpsyche.
And I've, you know, he hadsocial commentary even in his
children's novels.
Micah Leydorf (36:58):
He was very much writing from a place of
criticism of the English schoolsystem.
Especially that whole proposal,the screw tapes proposal you
were referring to that was addedas an addendum in 1959.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's what that, that was.
Well, I think we should probablyget to our last question, but
we've been talking about it thisentire time because the last
(37:20):
question is about social truthsand what truths about society or
the human experience areexplored, confirmed, and
challenged in this novel.
And that's basically, all thisnovel is about.
Right?
Right?
Laurel Thomas (37:35):
I think that's true.
Micah Leydorf (37:36):
But, um, and so this, this one has been a little
bit different.
And I, um, appreciate all of youguys being willing to read it.
Because again, it's a little bitchallenging to even call it a
novel, right?
Because it's, you know, it's,it's 31, um, letters.
Um, and, um, but are there anyparticular truths about the
human experience?
Melissa Grace (37:58):
Well, I loved this.
It's kind of in the first thirdof the book; it's him talking
again about, um, to his protege,Screwtape writing to his protege
about how to best capture thissoul.
Um,"This dim uneasiness needscareful handling.
(38:19):
If it gets too strong, it maywake him up and spoil the whole
game.
On the other hand, if yousuppress it entirely, which by
the by the enemy will probablynot allow you to do, we lose an
element in the situation whichcan be turned to good If such a
feeling is allowed to live, Butnot allowed to become
(38:41):
irresistible and flower intoreal repentance.
It has one invaluable tendency.
It increases the patient'sreluctance to think about the
enemy".
And I just, I mean, that was amirror to me.
That was a, that was, that was amoment where I looked in a
mirror and thought, okay I havefelt that dim uneasiness and
(39:03):
ignored it.
Micah Leydorf (39:04):
It's made you not want to write about God.
Melissa Grace (39:07):
Yeah, that's made me.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, you know, by his grace,it's been a long time, but I do
remember that part of myjourney.
Kat Lewis (39:16):
I think that what you're talking about goes
straight into the truth that Ihave kind of plucked and that I
will be circulating amongst myfriends is he says that, um, a
moderated religion is as good asno religion at all.
Like you think about this dimuneasiness within religious
culture, where, when we arearound people that we're
(39:39):
uncomfortable with, or that weOn a basic level, fundamentally
disagree with, but we don't knowhow to interact with them.
Our initial tendency isavoidance, right?
Is to let the dumb uneasinesskind of fester, but we never
actually like look at, look itin the face and say, okay, let's
deal with this thing.
From Baptist and Methodist andKatholic and all the little ways
(40:03):
that like, You know, we lookacross the table at each other
and we'll be very polite to eachother's face in the back of our
mind, we'll go, my views on, youknow, sex, drugs, and rock and
roll are just more superior andthey're more evolved and they're
more holy.
I think it's interesting how hedoesn't say that religion is
bad.
And isn't it so interesting thatmoderated religion is, is a tool
(40:24):
of the enemy?
Micah Leydorf (40:26):
It reminds me what you're talking about, of a
quote by another wonderfulEnglish author, G.
K.
Chesterton, say Christianity hasnot been Found wanting it's not
been tried and found wanting ithas been not tried.
I'm probably butchering thatquote, but, but, um, but that's
(40:46):
the same thing.
It's like, it's, oh, it'ssomething masquerading as the
authentic, message, the gospelmessage.
And there's a, you know, that'sa counterfeit.
That's what.
The demons and Satan are mastersat as, um, deception and again,
providing counterfeits.
And they don't want you toexamine too closely to see that
(41:06):
that's not really the source ofpleasure.
You know, that's not the real
Laurel Thomas (41:11):
I think that, you know, one of the things that I
really because it's in thenegative view and from the
liar's view, this is what, whatI was just.
thinking about.
There is therefore now nocondemnation, no guilty verdict,
(41:32):
no punishment for those who arein Christ Jesus.
For the law of the spirit oflife in Christ Jesus has set you
free from the law of sin anddeath.
For what the law could not do,that is overcome sin and remove
its penalty and its power.
Being weakened by the flesh, Goddid.
(41:54):
He sent his own son in thelikeness of sinful man and as an
offering for sin.
Okay, so, do we believe thatthere's no more condemnation?
I think that some of the, what Ihear in Screwtape Letters is the
largeness of the goodness ofGod.
(42:15):
is not and even if someone saysthey believe that there's going
to be caveats well yes you'reyou're not condemned if you
don't do this and this and thisand
Kat Lewis (42:27):
they provide a laundry list
Laurel Thomas (42:28):
this and this and this then so actually i am
condemned no the bible says i'mnot condemned and when we look
at that paradigm of comingbefore god washed and cleansed
wow That eliminates a lot of theenemy's noise.
(42:50):
It's a paradigm.
And so I think the wholeparadigm of evil is to get, I
mean, he says at the very end isto get into that religious
mindset of, you know, self, youknow, am I holy enough?
Am I, have I slipped here?
And I believe in being careful,you know, in our walk with the
(43:13):
Lord.
But the bottom line is he saidhe purchased for us a free life.
Micah Leydorf (43:19):
Yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons why in
my novel, I added the angelvoice because, you know, I, I
love the demon voice, like Isay, as a tool to help us think
differently and help revealthese, these, but then it felt
like, Oh, we need to hear.
We need to hear that message oftruth, right?
We need to, I actually needsomeone to say to me, Oh, she is
(43:41):
a child of God.
She is beloved.
Like I want to have those wordslike wash over me and therefore
wash over my reader.
Yes, exactly.
So it's like, maybe we need tohave it a little bit more
explicit.
Melissa Grace (43:54):
That's one of my favorite parts of it.
Micah Leydorf (43:55):
It's just that that's a lovely part.
I love it.
And I do feel like I need to,like, fix my Chesterton quote
because I butchered it so bad.
Like, I looked up here.
The Christian ideal has not beentried and found wanting.
It has been found difficult andleft untried.
So there's the actual quote fromG.
(44:16):
K.
Chesterton.
Um, so again, but, uh, When wefind that, that real thing.
And, um, I, I think, I hope thatthis book has been edifying and
life changing and I actuallyhave avoided it for the last
seven years because I didn'twant to be overly influenced
when I was writing mine.
(44:36):
So it was kind of nice to getback to it.
A little reminder of C.
S.
Lewis's brilliance.
And I hope maybe we can exploreanother C.
S.
Lewis book at some point.
So thank you so much for joiningus.
I hope you have enjoyed thisepisode of Stories That Change
Us and our focus on TheScrewtape Letters and C.
S.
Lewis, and I will just throw outthere, if you are interested in
(44:58):
the updated version, um, mynovel's name again is The Unseen
Battle, An Unexpected Love Storyby Micah Leydorf.
Love to have you join in any ofthe discussions about that or to
pick up a copy at Amazon or mywebsite.
We'll see you next time.
Bye guys.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com