January 2, 2025 • 39 mins
26 rejections, a frequent spot on the banned books list, and shining the light on the dangers of blind conformity are just a few of the surprises awaiting readers of Madeline L'Engle's, A Wrinkle In Time.
Moderated By: Laurel Thomas
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
https://instagram.com/storiesthat_changeus?igshid=eTlibmFxdXZmbXV5&utm_source=qr
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laurel Thomas (00:01):
Welcome to our eighth episode of the Stories
That Change Us podcast.
My name is Laurel Thomas, and Ihave some really good friends
here, and they're gonnaintroduce themselves.
Micah Leydorf (00:13):
Micah Leydorf.
Melissa Grace (00:14):
I'm Melissa Grace.
Kat Lewis (00:15):
And I am Kat Lewis.
Laurel Thomas (00:18):
So, here's the scoop.
Today, We are going to betalking about the best selling
YA fantasy, A Wrinkle In Time,by Madeline L'Engle.
Here's a few fun facts.
It was awarded the John NewberyAward in 1963, 11 years after
the Chronicles of Narnia.
(00:39):
This is my favorite part.
It endured 26 rejections becausepublishers didn't know if it was
written for adults or children.
Seriously.
Yes.
We like that.
Yeah.
It is one of the mostfrequently, or was or is, I'm
not sure, most frequently bannedbooks under the accusation of
(01:01):
being both too religious andanti christian.
Micah Leydorf (01:05):
Oh my gosh.
Seriously.
Kat Lewis (01:08):
You've got to love that.
Laurel Thomas (01:09):
I've said seriously three times.
It was adapted into a film witha star studded cast.
Oprah Winfrey, Reese Witherspoonand Chris Pine.
Micah Leydorf (01:20):
Which was terrible.
Don't don't see it.
Kat Lewis (01:24):
You weren't a fan of the movie.
Micah Leydorf (01:25):
Oh my gosh.
No, I know we're not.
This is not about movieadaptations.
This is about, you know, writingand novels and storytelling and
story technique.
But it's just gotta be said.
We don't want anyone to go seeit thinking that we're
advocating that because.
Well, some movies do havebeautiful adaptations.
That was not one of them.
Kat Lewis (01:45):
That missed the mark.
Micah Leydorf (01:46):
So, you know, a few months ago we talked about a
princess bride and that one hada fabulous movie adaptation,
right?
I would say most of the booksthat we've talked about have had
really strong movie and TVadaptations, you know,
Outlander, Pride and Prejudice,Gone With The Wind.
But A Wrinkle In Time?
(02:06):
Yo, fail!
Kat Lewis (02:07):
Just, just don't, just don't, just don't go see
it, just don't go see it.
Micah Leydorf (02:11):
But you know, maybe we should talk about like
what good storytelling elements,you know, need to be included
and maybe why they weren'tpresent.
I don't know if we want to gothere at all.
That's even worth any discussionat all.
Or maybe just focus on the bookand how awesome it is.
Kat Lewis (02:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do think it's worth kind oflike just lingering here because
I think Normal audiences, likenon writers, can identify bad
storytelling in a movie, book tomovie adaptation, but maybe they
don't understand why.
I think, Laurel, you kind of hitthe nail on the head, where
sometimes when you only focus onthe theatrical part of a story
(02:46):
And there's so much about AWrinkle In Time that's
theatrical.
You know, crazy characters, timetravel, witches, stars that turn
into centaurs, a talking brain,like it's so visual But if you
miss out on the soul and thepoint that the author, you know,
why did the author write thisbook?
If you miss that.
(03:08):
Then it's the movie's going tofall flat and it doesn't matter.
Oprah can dress up however shewants.
And I still don't care.
Micah Leydorf (03:15):
Right.
Kat Lewis (03:15):
You know, I walk away going that was a, maybe a waste
of two hours of my life.
Right.
So I think that like hitting thesoul and the soul of the story
is probably why it ends up onthe banned books list.
Micah Leydorf (03:25):
So bizarre to me.
What?
Right.
Kat Lewis (03:29):
But not religious enough.
Make up your mind.
Micah Leydorf (03:32):
Well, that reminds me of JK Rowling, right?
Like she was originally targetedby the Christian right.
And then now she's targeted bythe left and again, what she
wrote didn't change.
So it's interesting.
It is interesting.
Laurel Thomas (03:48):
Well, and I think what, and to what you were
saying, Kat, When there is astrong agenda being pushed that
is not necessarily in the novel,it just, to me, I can't go
there.
Why would you take the heart ofthe book out and replace it with
an agenda?
(04:09):
I mean, if you want to promote acertain agenda, then promote the
agenda, right?
But don't take a story, pull outthe guts and insert new guts.
Micah Leydorf (04:20):
Right.
Classic beloved novel.
Well, of course we know why youdo it because then you're going
to sell more tickets, right?
Because for everyone who lovesthe book, I mean, because this
book, I, one of the reasons whywe're talking about it is it's,
it's transcended all thesegenerations, right?
Like we've read it.
Maybe our Children have read it,you know, from 1963, you got
(04:44):
over 50 years of readers.
Melissa Grace (04:47):
Over 61 years.
Micah Leydorf (04:48):
Thank you for the math.
Melissa Grace (04:49):
Because I was born in 1963.
I know exactly how long ago thatwas.
Kat Lewis (04:56):
See, and that was actually surprising.
I did not realize that this bookhas, like, It's this book is an
old book.
It's an old classic.
Micah Leydorf (05:04):
Okay, just we were just like, we, one of the
things that's great about ourbook is the multi generational
nature of the four of us.
So we have Laurel represents theupper level.
And then we have Melissa andthen myself, Micah, and then Kat
is our baby, millennial.
(05:24):
But between the four of us, wereally each represent a
different decade, which we love.
Laurel Thomas (05:30):
We love that about us.
We love that.
And I think that's kind of likeI'm saying with an adaptation,
go with the heart of the story.
I mean, if you're going toswitch other things around fine,
but don't take the heart out andtry to make it your own, right?
It's not yours.
It's a work of art that someoneelse wrote.
Micah Leydorf (05:54):
So let's dig into why it's a work of art and why
it is.
Transcended all this time.
Laurel Thomas (06:00):
Well, great idea.
So, we usually do this, and Ithink it's always so revealing
about the novel.
And the question is, what quotestood out to you as an excellent
example of tension, authorvoice, or character development?
I have to say right off the bat,this was like really early on,
(06:23):
but Mrs.
What's it comes to see them on adark and stormy night.
And she, she's, she's hungry.
She's been blown off course ofcourse.
And, Charles knows her though.
And she knows Charles.
In fact, she's been blown offcourse, but she's like, wait a
minute, Charles lives here,which, you know, you kind of
wonder, hmm, okay.
(06:46):
And then she said, I ampassionately fond of Russian
caviar.
And Charles goes, You knew.
Melissa Grace (06:55):
You peaked.
Laurel Thomas (06:56):
You peaked.
That's for mother's birthday.
You can't have any.
Here's a tuna sandwich.
Micah Leydorf (07:04):
And just for those readers who, you know,
didn't, haven't read the book,or who saw the movie so they
didn't really get the story atall, um, Charles Wallace is like
a five year old boy, right?
So there's this little boy andthen this presumably older
woman.
And it was just, that was such agreat quote.
It's so fun.
That was a great choice, Laurel.
I love that choice.
(07:25):
So I made it, I picked 1 that'snot especially, um, I, I don't
know.
It was early on as well in the,in the novel.
And it was what their mother,Meg and Charles Wallace to the
main characters in the story.
Their mother, Mrs.
Murray made a comment about shesaid people are more than how
(07:46):
they look and you know, it's notlike a super memorable quote,
but you know, that's anotherthing in storytelling about like
saying early on, like one of thetheme, like just planting that
theme in the book.
And like, literally that shesaid those words, because that
is a huge theme throughout thisadventure story, which is
essentially like Kat said, youknow, so theatrical with it's
(08:07):
just, it's an adventure story.
It's.
It's like going from one, whichshe does a great job in the, in
the book about keeping thattension the entire time.
But I liked just that little,just throwing in the, that theme
and actually having thecharacter state one of those
themes so clearly.
Melissa Grace (08:28):
And that was a theme that went all the way
through.
I felt like that one of thequotes that, um, that stuck out
to me was Mrs.
Watson said.
At one point the kids are onlike another planet and
fascinated with a moon set orsomething like that.
And she said, no, child, do notturn around any of you face out
(08:50):
toward the dark.
What I have to show you will bemore visible then.
And I just thought that was sucha cool way talking about seeing
what's unseen, like you weresaying with the things are more
than they look like.
Micah Leydorf (09:07):
I think one of the reasons why adults sometimes
like to read YA is, It's alittle more simple, but again,
like I love the fact that thisbook was, I mean, of course,
again, we're all aspiring.
We are authors, but alsoaspiring authors because it's
always a continuing journey.
And so the fact that someone istalented and with so much to
(09:27):
offer the world as MadelineL'Engle experienced 26
rejections of what I thought wasinteresting too, was that this
was her sixth novel.
So she'd been published and hadwritten some things and had some
success.
And then.
When they came to this, they'relike, we don't know where this
goes.
Um, and so
Kat Lewis (09:43):
it doesn't fit clearly into a lane.
Micah Leydorf (09:45):
Right.
And, and that's like all of us.
I think that's another commontheme.
Like I feel like the really, thereally good stuff doesn't
usually just fit neatly into abox.
That's what makes it, you know,powerful and good.
Laurel Thomas (09:58):
I mean, think of To Kill A Mockingbird, you know,
the narrator when at the openingis eight years old.
And so the narrator is a child.
relating a nation on the cusp ofcultural revolution.
How genius is that?
So why would we expect it not tobe a universal draw?
(10:21):
You know, the, the viewpoint ofa child is, is so fascinating.
They don't have filters, soyeah, I mean, I, to me, that
just translate translates asuniversal.
Micah Leydorf (10:33):
Yeah.
But I love that, like in YA,it's like the themes are they're
not difficult.
I mean, like they, there's inthe good YA novels, there is
depth so that you can read it asan adult and still like the
Chronicles of Narnia that youbrought up, Laurel.
So I love that quote from C.
S.
Lewis.
In the letter to the littlegirl, Lucy, that one day you'll
be old enough to start readingfairy tales again.
(10:54):
So I feel like that's where weare now.
I guess I'm, you know, going toturn 50 next week.
So I guess I'm old enough tostart reading fairy tales again.
And that we're, you know,revisiting A Wrinkle In Time.
But I think that's, that's thesign of a good children's book
or good YA novel that there'senough depth that when you go
back, you see things that youdon't, because the first time
that, you know, we read that,I'm sure that the face out
(11:14):
towards the dark, you just tookit literally like, Oh, okay.
Like if I face and look out thisway towards this moon set, I'm
going to be able to see theplanet that, but then as come
back at your age with all yourexperience and say, Oh, look,
look at this deeper meaninghere.
Laurel Thomas (11:30):
I think too, as a fantasy writer.
When I have something large tosay, I love to put it in
fantasy.
You can say things on so manylevels in fantasy, and they can
be large out there thoughts.
And people don't necessarilyhave to understand them, but
when they're cloaked with acharacter that you can relate
(11:51):
to, or that you're drawn intotheir world, then you're brought
into a world that you wouldnever have gone without that.
outside of that character.
So the character is stillleading us, I think, you know,
whether it's YA,
Micah Leydorf (12:05):
now, Laurel, are your books YA or, or some of
them or?
Laurel Thomas (12:09):
Yes, they, although I don't market them to
YA, they're, they're lightfantasy.
Uh, I, I like to call themredemptive fantasy because I
like to put spiritual ideas andthoughts into a story.
But the thing about that kind ofstory, you still have to have a
great story.
(12:29):
You have to have a greatcharacter.
You have to sell a character ina way that, that you want to go
on the journey with her, even ifit is wild and crazy and you've
never experienced it before.
Kat Lewis (12:41):
No, I think Madeline L'Engle has, I was listening to
some interviews with MadelineL'Engle.
Cause when I, when we do thesethings, like I kind of deep dive
into like, Who is this person?
And what do other people sayabout this person's writing?
And, um, she has a differentdefinition of the genre of
fantasy that I think willdelight you, Laurel.
(13:01):
And she says that"fantasy is theexploration of truths beyond
mere facts.
It is moving towards truth thatis beyond truth.
And it is going beyond easypossibilities".
Laurel Thomas (13:13):
Oh my goodness.
Kat Lewis (13:15):
And I think that going to what you're saying,
Micah, about like, why is itthat we can come back to these
books 20 years later, right?
I think that leads beautifullyinto the second question, which
is like, what is a moment or ascene in the story that stands
out with this relief?
And I will say there's a momentwhen Meg is determined to go and
(13:35):
face the big bad villain.
It, which a commentatordescribed it as a satanic brain.
And I thought, Hmm, that's somestrong visual language for you.
But like, that's, that's the bigbad.
Is this,
Micah Leydorf (13:49):
is this disembodied brain sitting on a
dais, pulsating, pulsating.
Yeah.
Kat Lewis (13:56):
And that, uh, her, it has, it has seduced her brother
Charles.
And so now like her brother,Charles is hooked up to this
nasty thing.
Yeah.
verbalizing its commands.
And that's her point.
Her point is, yes, I want todefeat the brain, but I really
want to save my brother Charles.
And Charles, who is kind of the,he's the, the oddball five year
old who's got a bettervocabulary.
(14:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's got a better vocabularythan most 60 year olds.
Right.
And, um, I think a moment thatreally stood out for is when I
believe it's Mrs.
Whatsit is giving instructions.
All of the witches give Meginstructions on how to defeat
the brain.
But it's Mrs.
What's it that, um, I believeshe says something to this
(14:39):
degree.
She's like,
Micah Leydorf (14:41):
I give you your flaws.
That one?
No, it's that's before.
Oh yeah.
Kat Lewis (14:46):
That's before it's actually this is her preface to
that verse in Corinthians,right?
She, um, I don't know if youguys, if you guys noticed that,
like, Mrs.
I believe it's Mrs.
Whatsit.
She basically says, I'm going totell you this, but You have to
absorb it with feeling.
Don't get stuck in the logic ofthe thing.
(15:07):
And then she proceeds to quotethis verse and I believe it's,
um, first Corinthians 1, 24through 29, basically where it's
that verse where like, it saysthat the Lord will use the
things of logic and intellect.
The Lord will use establishedthings.
the wise, right?
But I thought there wassomething really powerful about
Melissa Grace (15:25):
use the simple things.
I'll use the simple, simplethings to confound the wise, the
weak things to confound thestrong.
Yeah, which to me, that's thewhole, that's the whole theme of
the book.
Kat Lewis (15:37):
Really?
Melissa Grace (15:38):
I think it is.
I think it's one of the themes.
Laurel Thomas (15:41):
Well, it's certainly true for Charles.
Melissa Grace (15:43):
Yeah, because it because Charles in his, you
know, great intellectualability.
Is just sucked in because pride,it's like the thing it, um,
seduced on, seduced him mm-hmmThrough his pride and she, Meg,
(16:03):
is um, I have to be 100% honest.
I did not love this book.
Micah Leydorf (16:10):
What?
Melissa Grace (16:10):
I know, I know.
I loved it when I was a kid.
I loved it when it went, when Iwas a kid.
I just have to give a shout outto Laurel who has, you know, her
fantasy, you know, she brings usinto a world the way she writes
descriptions and gives usimagery in our minds through her
(16:33):
words.
I feel like we, you're justthere.
And with this book, it was justso much more stark.
It was a lot of action and itwas a lot of just simple story
and simple imagery that waspowerful and I liked it by the
(16:57):
end.
I'll put it that way.
And I remember reading it as achild and loving it, but I, I
liked it again by the endbecause all the themes were all
wrapped up and, and it was like,Oh, okay.
Now I see what she's saying andhow, and she really did do it
brilliantly, but.
Kat Lewis (17:15):
Yeah, I feel like the themes that she was exploring
could not have been said subtly,right?
When you are attacking this ideaof conformity, right?
And conformity, because that'swhat the big, that's what,
Melissa Grace (17:30):
Yes,
Kat Lewis (17:30):
the brain was doing is it was basically, basically
creating this utopia whereeverybody's the same.
Everybody looks the same.
Everybody is in the same rhythmof life.
I would say like probably themost chilling scene for me was,
um, when the, when, uh, Meg andCharles and Calvin, their friend
are playing with the other kidsand they get in trouble for not
(17:53):
bouncing the balls in timebecause all these kids are
robotic, robotically.
Playing quote unquote, butbouncing their balls in the same
Laurel Thomas (18:01):
except for one.
Kat Lewis (18:02):
Monotonous rhythm.
My, my,
Melissa Grace (18:06):
what stood out to me was the mother's reaction to
the little boy.
Laurel Thomas (18:11):
She knew what was at stake.
Melissa Grace (18:13):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Laurel Thomas (18:16):
I thought it was interesting that the villain was
a brain.
Isn't that interesting?
You know, so what were theysaying about, you know, like, so
it's like a disembodied Reason.
Right?
Right.
Rationale.
Yes.
Micah Leydorf (18:31):
So that's not who you think is going to be the
villain.
Right.
It's rationality.
Like, oh wait, no.
Aren't we going for rationality?
Aren't we going for logic?
Laurel Thomas (18:38):
See, I think it was a huge cultural thing that
she was hitting.
Micah Leydorf (18:42):
Well, you know, I mean, again, it's always
interesting, like with like 1984or different, like these
futuristic novels to think aboutlike what she was describing.
Sounded just very eerily modern,right?
Like, even so, the fact thatwhat she was describing after
the children were playing inperfect synchronization, then
(19:04):
they go into their houses atexactly the same time.
And then the boy comes alongwriting on A cross between a
scooter and motorcycle and abicycle was like, it's like,
like the things we have rightnow, the electric bicycles that
are going down the street rightnow.
And then all the people are gotthese big computers and, you
(19:25):
know, they're doing all thesethings.
It's like, All of that soundsjust like what we have.
I mean, you know, for being on adifferent planet 60 years ago.
And then also if you're not, ifyou're not falling straight in
line, the horrible, we're goingto reprogram you.
Um, okay.
Yes.
Um, seems just all very, veryvisionary of Miss L'Engle to see
(19:47):
this as the, as the greatdanger, not allowing people to
Kat Lewis (19:54):
Be individuals
Micah Leydorf (19:55):
to be individuals and have differing gifts and
talents.
Kat Lewis (20:01):
Again, reading some commentary.
I think that this was like thefear of Massive corporatization
post world war two, you know, sowe had this massive trauma
globally.
And so kind of the result or theresponse was, okay, we're going
to create these neighborhoodsthat all look the same cause
it's safe.
And we're going to create thesecities that all look the same
(20:22):
cause it's safe.
And we're going to push thateight to five job because it's
safe.
And Madeline L'Engle, I can seeher sitting at her desk going,
it's safe.
Maybe today, But how is thatgoing to brainwash our kids?
Right?
How is that going to brainwashthe generations that the pursuit
of this cookie cutter lifestyleis going to steadily drain your
(20:45):
uniqueness?
It's steadily going to drainyour desire to pursue who you
really are for the sake ofsafety.
Laurel Thomas (20:52):
I love that.
And I, I think that it's soincredible that it was love that
conquered.
The brain.
Yes.
Mm hmm.
Yes.
How powerful is that?
Because really there was no wayout for Charles.
There was no way out.
He was totally absorbed
Micah Leydorf (21:12):
again I love that that he's super intelligent and
that he was absorbed by this,you know Rationality and logic
and it's Meg with all of hermany many flaws and loud
Opinionated and yes the bit justoh, but But I love you, right,
right.
But love, like you say, like allof this other doesn't really
(21:34):
matter and that's the only thingthat could break through
Kat Lewis (21:38):
and that rationality cannot process such love, right?
That's what like overwhelmed it,right?
Was it's like, Oh, I can't even,I don't even know what to do
with this amount of emotion thatyou have for.
Kind of like what you weresaying, Laura, like your broken
family, like who wants to betold what to do?
Who wants a five year oldbrother who's more intelligent
than you are, right?
(21:58):
You and your teenagers, youknow, in your teenage years and
you feel awkward and you'relike, I'm I hate being
different, right?
Melissa Grace (22:04):
But it's she said I love how that the
foreshadowing of her being sodifferent at school
Kat Lewis (22:11):
Yeah, like she is she's
Micah Leydorf (22:14):
Refuses to comply.
She refuses to conform.
She is
Laurel Thomas (22:17):
and that's what Mrs.
Watsit said.
She said it's you.
It's the part of you that youdon't like.
I give you your flaws.
I give you your flaws.
Right.
Right.
Okay.
I like that.
Micah Leydorf (22:28):
You know, another thing I really love about that,
we're talking about visceralscenes.
Um, and of course, like in thescene where she.
Does confront the great evilpower of it and saves her
brother as, I mean obviously areally visceral scene.
Laurel Thomas (22:42):
It right look at the ai, whatever you wanna call,
she did it right.
I loved that whenever sheconfronts the, the visceral, um,
brain that this, the evil thatinitially she was angry and that
(23:05):
it fed on her anger.
And then she's like, no, angeris not the solution.
Like this way, I'm just going tobe drawn into it.
And I feel like that is amessage for us today.
Right?
Because we can get really angryand we have to remember, no, the
way out of this.
Is love the way out of this isnot anger.
It's not to like, no, we'regoing to be angry at the people
(23:26):
who want us to conform, or we'regoing to be angry at, you know,
like, all of these,
Kat Lewis (23:32):
I think that's really powerful, Micah, because there's
a lot of energy put to groupsthat.
herald themselves as thegatekeepers of nonconformity.
Um, and I'm not going to namesome of these groups, but I
think we all know those groupsthat are all about individual
identity at all costs, right?
(23:53):
They're all about, we've beensilenced for so long and we
won't be silenced anymore.
But when you look at theheartbeat of their motive and
intent, it is anger based,right?
Even though they say we, all wewant is love and inclusion and
acceptance.
That's not what they're reallythat's not what they're
projecting out in the world ofprojecting anger and so I think
(24:13):
there is something that's kindof sit with this idea of Yes,
you know show up as anindividual who with a unique
identity But perhaps maybe weshould try corporately across
the board instead of coming intospaces angry with a narrative of
I've been silenced and I won'tbe silenced anymore.
(24:35):
Maybe we should just relax,right?
And the acceptance that we soseek, maybe we should just
accept the other person.
Micah Leydorf (24:41):
Extend that.
Kat Lewis (24:42):
Extend that first.
Melissa Grace (24:44):
Well, and I think that that just brings up how you
can take any position and behateful about it.
I mean, like sure.
Anti abortion
Laurel Thomas (24:56):
same spirit.
Melissa Grace (24:56):
Um, yeah.
Um, you can, you can be, youknow, take something that on the
face of it looks like a causethat is it's for the weak, it's
for the unborn, but if you'reugly about it, it really is.
I mean, that was that.
Was the thought process thatwent through my mind when
(25:19):
reading that passage where shesays, Oh, I can feel that my
anger is feeding this.
It's the hatred.
It I'm, I'm buying into it.
Laurel Thomas (25:30):
And it's more than ugly, which I think is what
her point was.
It was destructive.
Right.
It was, it was murderous.
Melissa Grace (25:39):
Even though she was hating a thing because it
was hating.
Micah Leydorf (25:43):
It reminds me simultaneously of something that
Gandhi said.
And then of course, so manythings that MLK said about I
choose love, you know, anddidn't, but Gandhi talked about,
um, The unforgiveness is likepoison, like drinking poison and
expecting the other person todie.
So, you know, like I say, likeshe feels this anger.
It's like, you don't realizethat's going to harm you.
(26:05):
It's not going to hurt them.
It's hurting.
You
Laurel Thomas (26:09):
because you're the same at that moment, and
that's what I think Melissa istrying to say if it's a
murderous spirit It's amurderous spirit.
It doesn't matter what you'reTouting right as truth or not
truth, which is I think is sointeresting about making the
brain a villain because we canall, we can argue on every side,
(26:30):
right?
But if there is a murderousspirit operating behind that
argument,
Micah Leydorf (26:37):
you know, I heard another quote recently.
It was from this really, Ithink, pretty exciting movement
called the after party.
It was some Christian thoughtleaders, um, like David French
and, um, I I'm forgetting someof the other ones, but, um,
talking about.
Christians like needing to findidentity outside of their
political party because thepolitical, a lot of people feel
(26:58):
homeless.
But, um, at this forum that Iwas listening to, they are
giving some quotes about likeour nation and how divided it is
and that literally it was like,A ridiculous number, like, um, I
want to quote it, I don'tremember exactly, but maybe like
40 percent or even somethingcrazily high like that.
Thinking that the country wouldbe better off if a vast majority
(27:22):
of the other people whodisagreed with them were to die.
Like, I mean, it was veryserious.
Laurel Thomas (27:28):
She's saying that in this novel.
She, you know it.
Are it Sorry.
It why?
I'm not against it.
I like it.
Chris Maselli is the best butshe's not saying it's ugly.
She's saying it's murderous.
And I just, I mean, the factthat Meg wins an impossibly
(27:53):
captive brother by love is justenormous.
Kat Lewis (27:59):
Yeah, no, I think that we've kind of, we've
dabbled in like the socialtruths.
Like this is one of those, thosenovels that again, I think the
movie adaptation fell short ofexploring any of this,
Micah Leydorf (28:10):
any, any of this on any level,
Kat Lewis (28:12):
So we kind of touched on social truths.
Micah Leydorf (28:15):
A lot.
Kat Lewis (28:16):
A lot.
A lot.
Melissa Grace (28:18):
Because that's what it's about, is social
truths.
Kat Lewis (28:20):
So what are some elements of the story of the
craft of storytelling that arejust done exceptionally well in
this book?
Micah Leydorf (28:28):
So I think tension.
I think it has to be attention.
I mean, again, this is anadventure story from the start,
you know, it starts on the darkand stormy night introduces all
the characters seamlessly in away that.
Doesn't feel forced at all.
That gets you involved that youfeel this connection to Meg is
the heroine, somebody who'srelatable.
I feel like again, that's 1 ofthe reasons why that the
(28:50):
character of Meg and howrelatable she is, why it has
such A timeless appeal to somany, like, who doesn't, like
you say, as a middle schoolerfeel like they don't quite
belong.
Maybe they're, they're trying tofind their way.
Everyone else has got ittogether.
Except me.
Right.
So again, it's, it's universal.
And then it just takes you everysingle chapter.
(29:11):
It's just an adventure story.
And it's pretty simple story,actually, you'd say there's not
a lot of setting.
There's not a lot of,
Laurel Thomas (29:17):
I mean, other than the quantum physics.
Micah Leydorf (29:19):
So I, I feel like what she does really well is
just keeps the tensionthroughout the entire she does.
Yeah.
That's good.
Kat Lewis (29:27):
Because honestly, like they, they embark on this
adventure to save their dad.
I think that one of the thingsthat she does really well Kind
of to what Micah is saying is,um, like the deep need that is
so relatable.
Sometimes I think that asauthors, we create deep needs
that are specific to ourcharacters, but may not
necessarily be specific to ourtarget audience.
(29:49):
And so like this deep need ofwanting to be like everybody
else.
You know, Meg is angry becauseher family is a broken family
and that's different than likeall the other seemingly perfect
families around her.
She's this awkward gangly kindof redhead with curly hair.
And she's like, man, if I couldjust have blonde smooth locks,
like, you know, just thatintrinsic need of, and the
(30:11):
perception of.
My normal world is the brokenworld, right?
Is there something broken aboutmy, my normal world?
And it's my family.
Laurel Thomas (30:23):
That's my favorite part because that's
like a universal, right?
So if you want to knowbrokenness, just Look in your
own family, right?
Because your, your closestrelationships are the ones that
reflect that, but they also openup the door for real growth.
And we see that in Meg, youknow, we see that with, she
adores her little brother andhas this protective heart toward
(30:45):
him.
She gets mad at her dad.
Cause her dad left, you know,Charles, right.
And didn't get them out verywell.
She about died.
But I love the whole familyelement and the fact that it's
so powerful in, incharacterization and also in
change and growth.
Micah Leydorf (31:05):
Well, I think the other real universal, besides
the, you know, gangliness andthe not belonging and all those
was, is the father.
Like you say, Laurel.
So everybody has a father,whether he's present or not.
And just like Meg, you eitherfeel the lack of him, or you
feel maybe he's lackingwhatsoever.
You know, Oh, wait, I thoughteverything was going to be okay.
(31:25):
Once I found my dad, he's notSuperman.
Oh, you know, everything isn'tokay because he's a human too.
And he's flawed.
So, I mean, father issues, howuniversal is that?
Laurel Thomas (31:37):
And she goes right to the core of it.
When she, her dad said, what'swrong, Megatron.
And Meg goes, I wanted you to doit all.
Melissa Grace (31:46):
I loved that.
I felt like that was just sucha.
Laurel Thomas (31:51):
Such a moment of the child becoming, you know,
grown.
What is the rite of passage?
What is the coming of age?
It's where we've been waitingfor someone else to do it.
And if they don't do it right,then we get mad and say, you
didn't do it right.
But we didn't do anything.
Melissa Grace (32:10):
Well, what I thought she did very, in such a
strong way was, um, the way shecreated I, I just said I didn't
feel like she was, she didn'tspend a whole lot of time giving
us A lot of, um, like, um,emotional imagery, but she did
(32:31):
give us worlds turned on theirheads.
She did give us a different wayof looking at things like the
beast.
I loved when aunt beast says,um, We do not know what things
look like.
We know what things are.
Mm-hmm It must be very limiting.
This thing seeing so good.
Laurel Thomas (32:52):
Alright, so our happy conclusion to our podcast
is character roulette.
And so, um, Kat, would you dothe honors of drawing a name for
us?
Micah Leydorf (33:03):
Well, let's just review.
We've got some choices here.
We got Meg.
We've got her little brother,Charles Wallace.
We have Calvin.
We have Mrs.
Murray, Mr.
Murray, Mrs.
Who, Mrs.
What's It, Mrs.
What's the third one?
Witch.
Witch.
We've got It.
Um, Aunt Beast.
I don't know.
Am I forgetting any?
Laurel Thomas (33:22):
That covers them.
Melissa Grace (33:22):
The, the, the creepy guy with the red eyes.
Micah Leydorf (33:26):
Oh, okay.
I just viewed him in themouthpiece mouth mouthpiece for
the brain really, but I'll knowmore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Kat Lewis (33:33):
Okay.
Let's, let's, let's spin itaround, spin it around and let's
talk about Charles.
Charles Wallace, the littlebrother.
Okay.
Yes.
The five year old Yes.
Yes.
Let's talk about kind of, um,his role as a change engine in
(33:54):
the story.
And I'll tell you, um, readingthis book, I immediately
identified Charles as the Edmundin Chronicles of Narnia.
Micah Leydorf (34:04):
Really?
Right.
Kat Lewis (34:05):
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
Absolutely.
Him coming to this world wheremaybe he felt seen and he felt
understood Whereas in the normalworld, he even kind of says it
He's like, I think it's betterif people think that I'm slow
because if they realize howintelligent I am They're gonna
hate me for it.
But in this, you know, Camazotz.
(34:27):
He's like, oh I can be I can beall that I think that I can be
right and it's that kind of likeit's that pride that allows that
The brain to seduce him and kindof that same kind of parallelism
of like Edmund coming to Narniaand seeing the potential for His
unrealized self to come.
Laurel Thomas (34:45):
That's cool.
Right?
Kat Lewis (34:46):
Yeah, I really saw The parallels and it kind of
makes sense if Madeline L'Englewas kind of in the same Literary
spaces as C.
S.
Lewis.
I see a lot of parallels andlike maybe how they executed
That seduction into,
Laurel Thomas (35:01):
let me say something about Charles.
I think at this point, what didit steal from Charles.
Charles had this intuitive giftand, he could perceive.
Yes.
He could perceive what Meg wasthinking.
They had such a strongconnection.
And he even understood his momand he knew the twins were like,
(35:24):
not too hard to understand, youknow, not real, not real deep
and complicated.
But I think that what it stolefrom Charles was that part of
him.
And it was only his intellect.
That got corrupted becauseCharles did not have a corrupt
soul.
Micah Leydorf (35:44):
Right.
I don't see him.
I don't see him being reallysweet.
Yes.
He was a sweet little boy.
So I think I see the differencesbetween him and Edmund.
Edmund is, I see kind of like,okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Edmund is young.
And I mean, he needs to be, hehas a greater need for
redemption arc than CharlesWallace, even like whenever he.
(36:10):
He's like, Meg, we have to dothis in order to save Father.
So he wasn't doing it likeEdmund.
Like, Oh, I can, what?
At Peter here, I can be the, youknow, white, white, you know,
little liaison and nobody else,something.
So yes, maybe Charles Wallacehas a little bit of pride that
enables that, but, but again,he's basically a sweet little
(36:32):
boy who was in need of someSaving versus a traitor.
Laurel Thomas (36:38):
Well, other than that, they were very similar.
Well, but right.
And, and that's what I saw.
I mean, as far as like, um, likewith his sister, they have the
sweetest relationship and it'svery two way and in it she's
protected because she knows hisheart and that's how she knows
(37:01):
it's not him.
when she comes to get him away.
Micah Leydorf (37:05):
That reminds me, Laurel, I, maybe this is a good
thing to end on is that, youknow, again, we're just talking
about, you know, the importanceof love and again, how there's a
lot of division in our worldtoday on various fronts.
And somebody said to merecently, um, uh, we were
talking about how to overcomethat.
And they said, um, I said, well,what about that quote from Oprah
(37:27):
about, you know, when peopleshow you who they are, you know,
believe them or I think it'soriginally Maya Angelou than
Oprah quoting Maya Angelou.
Um, and she said, they're notshowing you who they are.
She said, they're showing youthe lies that they've believed.
And that just so stuck with me.
So when you say like aboutCharles Wallace, like she knew
his heart and she said, knewthat that's not Charles.
(37:48):
That's really true of everysingle human being.
And this is what she was saying.
It's like, you know who peopleare.
They are.
They're beloved children of God.
That's who every single humanbeing is.
And whenever they show somethingdifferent, that's showing you
the lies that they believed.
So I think that maybe that's agood thing.
Melissa Grace (38:07):
That's powerful.
Kat Lewis (38:08):
That's so powerful.
Micah Leydorf (38:08):
Yeah.
Of like, again, how we canovercome just like Meg did by
love and one, how can we loveone another to see each other
for who we truly are.
Laurel Thomas (38:19):
Mm-hmm Good conclusion.
Well, we've had a wonderfultime.
We hope you enjoyed it as muchas we always enjoy each other
and you.
So come back and see us for thenext podcast, which will be
about Jane Eyre.
Kat Lewis (38:33):
Yes, ma'am.
Yes, ma'am.
So we hope you guys will comehang out with us and we will see
you soon.
Micah Leydorf (38:39):
All right.
Laurel Thomas (38:41):
Bye.
Welcome to our eighth episode of the Stories
That Change Us podcast.
My name is Laurel Thomas, and Ihave some really good friends
here, and they're gonnaintroduce themselves.
Micah Leydorf (00:13):
Micah Leydorf.
Melissa Grace (00:14):
I'm Melissa Grace.
Kat Lewis (00:15):
And I am Kat Lewis.
Laurel Thomas (00:18):
So, here's the scoop.
Today, We are going to betalking about the best selling
YA fantasy, A Wrinkle In Time,by Madeline L'Engle.
Here's a few fun facts.
It was awarded the John NewberyAward in 1963, 11 years after
the Chronicles of Narnia.
(00:39):
This is my favorite part.
It endured 26 rejections becausepublishers didn't know if it was
written for adults or children.
Seriously.
Yes.
We like that.
Yeah.
It is one of the mostfrequently, or was or is, I'm
not sure, most frequently bannedbooks under the accusation of
(01:01):
being both too religious andanti christian.
Micah Leydorf (01:05):
Oh my gosh.
Seriously.
Kat Lewis (01:08):
You've got to love that.
Laurel Thomas (01:09):
I've said seriously three times.
It was adapted into a film witha star studded cast.
Oprah Winfrey, Reese Witherspoonand Chris Pine.
Micah Leydorf (01:20):
Which was terrible.
Don't don't see it.
Kat Lewis (01:24):
You weren't a fan of the movie.
Micah Leydorf (01:25):
Oh my gosh.
No, I know we're not.
This is not about movieadaptations.
This is about, you know, writingand novels and storytelling and
story technique.
But it's just gotta be said.
We don't want anyone to go seeit thinking that we're
advocating that because.
Well, some movies do havebeautiful adaptations.
That was not one of them.
Kat Lewis (01:45):
That missed the mark.
Micah Leydorf (01:46):
So, you know, a few months ago we talked about a
princess bride and that one hada fabulous movie adaptation,
right?
I would say most of the booksthat we've talked about have had
really strong movie and TVadaptations, you know,
Outlander, Pride and Prejudice,Gone With The Wind.
But A Wrinkle In Time?
(02:06):
Yo, fail!
Kat Lewis (02:07):
Just, just don't, just don't, just don't go see
it, just don't go see it.
Micah Leydorf (02:11):
But you know, maybe we should talk about like
what good storytelling elements,you know, need to be included
and maybe why they weren'tpresent.
I don't know if we want to gothere at all.
That's even worth any discussionat all.
Or maybe just focus on the bookand how awesome it is.
Kat Lewis (02:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do think it's worth kind oflike just lingering here because
I think Normal audiences, likenon writers, can identify bad
storytelling in a movie, book tomovie adaptation, but maybe they
don't understand why.
I think, Laurel, you kind of hitthe nail on the head, where
sometimes when you only focus onthe theatrical part of a story
(02:46):
And there's so much about AWrinkle In Time that's
theatrical.
You know, crazy characters, timetravel, witches, stars that turn
into centaurs, a talking brain,like it's so visual But if you
miss out on the soul and thepoint that the author, you know,
why did the author write thisbook?
If you miss that.
(03:08):
Then it's the movie's going tofall flat and it doesn't matter.
Oprah can dress up however shewants.
And I still don't care.
Micah Leydorf (03:15):
Right.
Kat Lewis (03:15):
You know, I walk away going that was a, maybe a waste
of two hours of my life.
Right.
So I think that like hitting thesoul and the soul of the story
is probably why it ends up onthe banned books list.
Micah Leydorf (03:25):
So bizarre to me.
What?
Right.
Kat Lewis (03:29):
But not religious enough.
Make up your mind.
Micah Leydorf (03:32):
Well, that reminds me of JK Rowling, right?
Like she was originally targetedby the Christian right.
And then now she's targeted bythe left and again, what she
wrote didn't change.
So it's interesting.
It is interesting.
Laurel Thomas (03:48):
Well, and I think what, and to what you were
saying, Kat, When there is astrong agenda being pushed that
is not necessarily in the novel,it just, to me, I can't go
there.
Why would you take the heart ofthe book out and replace it with
an agenda?
(04:09):
I mean, if you want to promote acertain agenda, then promote the
agenda, right?
But don't take a story, pull outthe guts and insert new guts.
Micah Leydorf (04:20):
Right.
Classic beloved novel.
Well, of course we know why youdo it because then you're going
to sell more tickets, right?
Because for everyone who lovesthe book, I mean, because this
book, I, one of the reasons whywe're talking about it is it's,
it's transcended all thesegenerations, right?
Like we've read it.
Maybe our Children have read it,you know, from 1963, you got
(04:44):
over 50 years of readers.
Melissa Grace (04:47):
Over 61 years.
Micah Leydorf (04:48):
Thank you for the math.
Melissa Grace (04:49):
Because I was born in 1963.
I know exactly how long ago thatwas.
Kat Lewis (04:56):
See, and that was actually surprising.
I did not realize that this bookhas, like, It's this book is an
old book.
It's an old classic.
Micah Leydorf (05:04):
Okay, just we were just like, we, one of the
things that's great about ourbook is the multi generational
nature of the four of us.
So we have Laurel represents theupper level.
And then we have Melissa andthen myself, Micah, and then Kat
is our baby, millennial.
(05:24):
But between the four of us, wereally each represent a
different decade, which we love.
Laurel Thomas (05:30):
We love that about us.
We love that.
And I think that's kind of likeI'm saying with an adaptation,
go with the heart of the story.
I mean, if you're going toswitch other things around fine,
but don't take the heart out andtry to make it your own, right?
It's not yours.
It's a work of art that someoneelse wrote.
Micah Leydorf (05:54):
So let's dig into why it's a work of art and why
it is.
Transcended all this time.
Laurel Thomas (06:00):
Well, great idea.
So, we usually do this, and Ithink it's always so revealing
about the novel.
And the question is, what quotestood out to you as an excellent
example of tension, authorvoice, or character development?
I have to say right off the bat,this was like really early on,
(06:23):
but Mrs.
What's it comes to see them on adark and stormy night.
And she, she's, she's hungry.
She's been blown off course ofcourse.
And, Charles knows her though.
And she knows Charles.
In fact, she's been blown offcourse, but she's like, wait a
minute, Charles lives here,which, you know, you kind of
wonder, hmm, okay.
(06:46):
And then she said, I ampassionately fond of Russian
caviar.
And Charles goes, You knew.
Melissa Grace (06:55):
You peaked.
Laurel Thomas (06:56):
You peaked.
That's for mother's birthday.
You can't have any.
Here's a tuna sandwich.
Micah Leydorf (07:04):
And just for those readers who, you know,
didn't, haven't read the book,or who saw the movie so they
didn't really get the story atall, um, Charles Wallace is like
a five year old boy, right?
So there's this little boy andthen this presumably older
woman.
And it was just, that was such agreat quote.
It's so fun.
That was a great choice, Laurel.
I love that choice.
(07:25):
So I made it, I picked 1 that'snot especially, um, I, I don't
know.
It was early on as well in the,in the novel.
And it was what their mother,Meg and Charles Wallace to the
main characters in the story.
Their mother, Mrs.
Murray made a comment about shesaid people are more than how
(07:46):
they look and you know, it's notlike a super memorable quote,
but you know, that's anotherthing in storytelling about like
saying early on, like one of thetheme, like just planting that
theme in the book.
And like, literally that shesaid those words, because that
is a huge theme throughout thisadventure story, which is
essentially like Kat said, youknow, so theatrical with it's
(08:07):
just, it's an adventure story.
It's.
It's like going from one, whichshe does a great job in the, in
the book about keeping thattension the entire time.
But I liked just that little,just throwing in the, that theme
and actually having thecharacter state one of those
themes so clearly.
Melissa Grace (08:28):
And that was a theme that went all the way
through.
I felt like that one of thequotes that, um, that stuck out
to me was Mrs.
Watson said.
At one point the kids are onlike another planet and
fascinated with a moon set orsomething like that.
And she said, no, child, do notturn around any of you face out
(08:50):
toward the dark.
What I have to show you will bemore visible then.
And I just thought that was sucha cool way talking about seeing
what's unseen, like you weresaying with the things are more
than they look like.
Micah Leydorf (09:07):
I think one of the reasons why adults sometimes
like to read YA is, It's alittle more simple, but again,
like I love the fact that thisbook was, I mean, of course,
again, we're all aspiring.
We are authors, but alsoaspiring authors because it's
always a continuing journey.
And so the fact that someone istalented and with so much to
(09:27):
offer the world as MadelineL'Engle experienced 26
rejections of what I thought wasinteresting too, was that this
was her sixth novel.
So she'd been published and hadwritten some things and had some
success.
And then.
When they came to this, they'relike, we don't know where this
goes.
Um, and so
Kat Lewis (09:43):
it doesn't fit clearly into a lane.
Micah Leydorf (09:45):
Right.
And, and that's like all of us.
I think that's another commontheme.
Like I feel like the really, thereally good stuff doesn't
usually just fit neatly into abox.
That's what makes it, you know,powerful and good.
Laurel Thomas (09:58):
I mean, think of To Kill A Mockingbird, you know,
the narrator when at the openingis eight years old.
And so the narrator is a child.
relating a nation on the cusp ofcultural revolution.
How genius is that?
So why would we expect it not tobe a universal draw?
(10:21):
You know, the, the viewpoint ofa child is, is so fascinating.
They don't have filters, soyeah, I mean, I, to me, that
just translate translates asuniversal.
Micah Leydorf (10:33):
Yeah.
But I love that, like in YA,it's like the themes are they're
not difficult.
I mean, like they, there's inthe good YA novels, there is
depth so that you can read it asan adult and still like the
Chronicles of Narnia that youbrought up, Laurel.
So I love that quote from C.
S.
Lewis.
In the letter to the littlegirl, Lucy, that one day you'll
be old enough to start readingfairy tales again.
(10:54):
So I feel like that's where weare now.
I guess I'm, you know, going toturn 50 next week.
So I guess I'm old enough tostart reading fairy tales again.
And that we're, you know,revisiting A Wrinkle In Time.
But I think that's, that's thesign of a good children's book
or good YA novel that there'senough depth that when you go
back, you see things that youdon't, because the first time
that, you know, we read that,I'm sure that the face out
(11:14):
towards the dark, you just tookit literally like, Oh, okay.
Like if I face and look out thisway towards this moon set, I'm
going to be able to see theplanet that, but then as come
back at your age with all yourexperience and say, Oh, look,
look at this deeper meaninghere.
Laurel Thomas (11:30):
I think too, as a fantasy writer.
When I have something large tosay, I love to put it in
fantasy.
You can say things on so manylevels in fantasy, and they can
be large out there thoughts.
And people don't necessarilyhave to understand them, but
when they're cloaked with acharacter that you can relate
(11:51):
to, or that you're drawn intotheir world, then you're brought
into a world that you wouldnever have gone without that.
outside of that character.
So the character is stillleading us, I think, you know,
whether it's YA,
Micah Leydorf (12:05):
now, Laurel, are your books YA or, or some of
them or?
Laurel Thomas (12:09):
Yes, they, although I don't market them to
YA, they're, they're lightfantasy.
Uh, I, I like to call themredemptive fantasy because I
like to put spiritual ideas andthoughts into a story.
But the thing about that kind ofstory, you still have to have a
great story.
(12:29):
You have to have a greatcharacter.
You have to sell a character ina way that, that you want to go
on the journey with her, even ifit is wild and crazy and you've
never experienced it before.
Kat Lewis (12:41):
No, I think Madeline L'Engle has, I was listening to
some interviews with MadelineL'Engle.
Cause when I, when we do thesethings, like I kind of deep dive
into like, Who is this person?
And what do other people sayabout this person's writing?
And, um, she has a differentdefinition of the genre of
fantasy that I think willdelight you, Laurel.
(13:01):
And she says that"fantasy is theexploration of truths beyond
mere facts.
It is moving towards truth thatis beyond truth.
And it is going beyond easypossibilities".
Laurel Thomas (13:13):
Oh my goodness.
Kat Lewis (13:15):
And I think that going to what you're saying,
Micah, about like, why is itthat we can come back to these
books 20 years later, right?
I think that leads beautifullyinto the second question, which
is like, what is a moment or ascene in the story that stands
out with this relief?
And I will say there's a momentwhen Meg is determined to go and
(13:35):
face the big bad villain.
It, which a commentatordescribed it as a satanic brain.
And I thought, Hmm, that's somestrong visual language for you.
But like, that's, that's the bigbad.
Is this,
Micah Leydorf (13:49):
is this disembodied brain sitting on a
dais, pulsating, pulsating.
Yeah.
Kat Lewis (13:56):
And that, uh, her, it has, it has seduced her brother
Charles.
And so now like her brother,Charles is hooked up to this
nasty thing.
Yeah.
verbalizing its commands.
And that's her point.
Her point is, yes, I want todefeat the brain, but I really
want to save my brother Charles.
And Charles, who is kind of the,he's the, the oddball five year
old who's got a bettervocabulary.
(14:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's got a better vocabularythan most 60 year olds.
Right.
And, um, I think a moment thatreally stood out for is when I
believe it's Mrs.
Whatsit is giving instructions.
All of the witches give Meginstructions on how to defeat
the brain.
But it's Mrs.
What's it that, um, I believeshe says something to this
(14:39):
degree.
She's like,
Micah Leydorf (14:41):
I give you your flaws.
That one?
No, it's that's before.
Oh yeah.
Kat Lewis (14:46):
That's before it's actually this is her preface to
that verse in Corinthians,right?
She, um, I don't know if youguys, if you guys noticed that,
like, Mrs.
I believe it's Mrs.
Whatsit.
She basically says, I'm going totell you this, but You have to
absorb it with feeling.
Don't get stuck in the logic ofthe thing.
(15:07):
And then she proceeds to quotethis verse and I believe it's,
um, first Corinthians 1, 24through 29, basically where it's
that verse where like, it saysthat the Lord will use the
things of logic and intellect.
The Lord will use establishedthings.
the wise, right?
But I thought there wassomething really powerful about
Melissa Grace (15:25):
use the simple things.
I'll use the simple, simplethings to confound the wise, the
weak things to confound thestrong.
Yeah, which to me, that's thewhole, that's the whole theme of
the book.
Kat Lewis (15:37):
Really?
Melissa Grace (15:38):
I think it is.
I think it's one of the themes.
Laurel Thomas (15:41):
Well, it's certainly true for Charles.
Melissa Grace (15:43):
Yeah, because it because Charles in his, you
know, great intellectualability.
Is just sucked in because pride,it's like the thing it, um,
seduced on, seduced him mm-hmmThrough his pride and she, Meg,
(16:03):
is um, I have to be 100% honest.
I did not love this book.
Micah Leydorf (16:10):
What?
Melissa Grace (16:10):
I know, I know.
I loved it when I was a kid.
I loved it when it went, when Iwas a kid.
I just have to give a shout outto Laurel who has, you know, her
fantasy, you know, she brings usinto a world the way she writes
descriptions and gives usimagery in our minds through her
(16:33):
words.
I feel like we, you're justthere.
And with this book, it was justso much more stark.
It was a lot of action and itwas a lot of just simple story
and simple imagery that waspowerful and I liked it by the
(16:57):
end.
I'll put it that way.
And I remember reading it as achild and loving it, but I, I
liked it again by the endbecause all the themes were all
wrapped up and, and it was like,Oh, okay.
Now I see what she's saying andhow, and she really did do it
brilliantly, but.
Kat Lewis (17:15):
Yeah, I feel like the themes that she was exploring
could not have been said subtly,right?
When you are attacking this ideaof conformity, right?
And conformity, because that'swhat the big, that's what,
Melissa Grace (17:30):
Yes,
Kat Lewis (17:30):
the brain was doing is it was basically, basically
creating this utopia whereeverybody's the same.
Everybody looks the same.
Everybody is in the same rhythmof life.
I would say like probably themost chilling scene for me was,
um, when the, when, uh, Meg andCharles and Calvin, their friend
are playing with the other kidsand they get in trouble for not
(17:53):
bouncing the balls in timebecause all these kids are
robotic, robotically.
Playing quote unquote, butbouncing their balls in the same
Laurel Thomas (18:01):
except for one.
Kat Lewis (18:02):
Monotonous rhythm.
My, my,
Melissa Grace (18:06):
what stood out to me was the mother's reaction to
the little boy.
Laurel Thomas (18:11):
She knew what was at stake.
Melissa Grace (18:13):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Laurel Thomas (18:16):
I thought it was interesting that the villain was
a brain.
Isn't that interesting?
You know, so what were theysaying about, you know, like, so
it's like a disembodied Reason.
Right?
Right.
Rationale.
Yes.
Micah Leydorf (18:31):
So that's not who you think is going to be the
villain.
Right.
It's rationality.
Like, oh wait, no.
Aren't we going for rationality?
Aren't we going for logic?
Laurel Thomas (18:38):
See, I think it was a huge cultural thing that
she was hitting.
Micah Leydorf (18:42):
Well, you know, I mean, again, it's always
interesting, like with like 1984or different, like these
futuristic novels to think aboutlike what she was describing.
Sounded just very eerily modern,right?
Like, even so, the fact thatwhat she was describing after
the children were playing inperfect synchronization, then
(19:04):
they go into their houses atexactly the same time.
And then the boy comes alongwriting on A cross between a
scooter and motorcycle and abicycle was like, it's like,
like the things we have rightnow, the electric bicycles that
are going down the street rightnow.
And then all the people are gotthese big computers and, you
(19:25):
know, they're doing all thesethings.
It's like, All of that soundsjust like what we have.
I mean, you know, for being on adifferent planet 60 years ago.
And then also if you're not, ifyou're not falling straight in
line, the horrible, we're goingto reprogram you.
Um, okay.
Yes.
Um, seems just all very, veryvisionary of Miss L'Engle to see
(19:47):
this as the, as the greatdanger, not allowing people to
Kat Lewis (19:54):
Be individuals
Micah Leydorf (19:55):
to be individuals and have differing gifts and
talents.
Kat Lewis (20:01):
Again, reading some commentary.
I think that this was like thefear of Massive corporatization
post world war two, you know, sowe had this massive trauma
globally.
And so kind of the result or theresponse was, okay, we're going
to create these neighborhoodsthat all look the same cause
it's safe.
And we're going to create thesecities that all look the same
(20:22):
cause it's safe.
And we're going to push thateight to five job because it's
safe.
And Madeline L'Engle, I can seeher sitting at her desk going,
it's safe.
Maybe today, But how is thatgoing to brainwash our kids?
Right?
How is that going to brainwashthe generations that the pursuit
of this cookie cutter lifestyleis going to steadily drain your
(20:45):
uniqueness?
It's steadily going to drainyour desire to pursue who you
really are for the sake ofsafety.
Laurel Thomas (20:52):
I love that.
And I, I think that it's soincredible that it was love that
conquered.
The brain.
Yes.
Mm hmm.
Yes.
How powerful is that?
Because really there was no wayout for Charles.
There was no way out.
He was totally absorbed
Micah Leydorf (21:12):
again I love that that he's super intelligent and
that he was absorbed by this,you know Rationality and logic
and it's Meg with all of hermany many flaws and loud
Opinionated and yes the bit justoh, but But I love you, right,
right.
But love, like you say, like allof this other doesn't really
(21:34):
matter and that's the only thingthat could break through
Kat Lewis (21:38):
and that rationality cannot process such love, right?
That's what like overwhelmed it,right?
Was it's like, Oh, I can't even,I don't even know what to do
with this amount of emotion thatyou have for.
Kind of like what you weresaying, Laura, like your broken
family, like who wants to betold what to do?
Who wants a five year oldbrother who's more intelligent
than you are, right?
(21:58):
You and your teenagers, youknow, in your teenage years and
you feel awkward and you'relike, I'm I hate being
different, right?
Melissa Grace (22:04):
But it's she said I love how that the
foreshadowing of her being sodifferent at school
Kat Lewis (22:11):
Yeah, like she is she's
Micah Leydorf (22:14):
Refuses to comply.
She refuses to conform.
She is
Laurel Thomas (22:17):
and that's what Mrs.
Watsit said.
She said it's you.
It's the part of you that youdon't like.
I give you your flaws.
I give you your flaws.
Right.
Right.
Okay.
I like that.
Micah Leydorf (22:28):
You know, another thing I really love about that,
we're talking about visceralscenes.
Um, and of course, like in thescene where she.
Does confront the great evilpower of it and saves her
brother as, I mean obviously areally visceral scene.
Laurel Thomas (22:42):
It right look at the ai, whatever you wanna call,
she did it right.
I loved that whenever sheconfronts the, the visceral, um,
brain that this, the evil thatinitially she was angry and that
(23:05):
it fed on her anger.
And then she's like, no, angeris not the solution.
Like this way, I'm just going tobe drawn into it.
And I feel like that is amessage for us today.
Right?
Because we can get really angryand we have to remember, no, the
way out of this.
Is love the way out of this isnot anger.
It's not to like, no, we'regoing to be angry at the people
(23:26):
who want us to conform, or we'regoing to be angry at, you know,
like, all of these,
Kat Lewis (23:32):
I think that's really powerful, Micah, because there's
a lot of energy put to groupsthat.
herald themselves as thegatekeepers of nonconformity.
Um, and I'm not going to namesome of these groups, but I
think we all know those groupsthat are all about individual
identity at all costs, right?
(23:53):
They're all about, we've beensilenced for so long and we
won't be silenced anymore.
But when you look at theheartbeat of their motive and
intent, it is anger based,right?
Even though they say we, all wewant is love and inclusion and
acceptance.
That's not what they're reallythat's not what they're
projecting out in the world ofprojecting anger and so I think
(24:13):
there is something that's kindof sit with this idea of Yes,
you know show up as anindividual who with a unique
identity But perhaps maybe weshould try corporately across
the board instead of coming intospaces angry with a narrative of
I've been silenced and I won'tbe silenced anymore.
(24:35):
Maybe we should just relax,right?
And the acceptance that we soseek, maybe we should just
accept the other person.
Micah Leydorf (24:41):
Extend that.
Kat Lewis (24:42):
Extend that first.
Melissa Grace (24:44):
Well, and I think that that just brings up how you
can take any position and behateful about it.
I mean, like sure.
Anti abortion
Laurel Thomas (24:56):
same spirit.
Melissa Grace (24:56):
Um, yeah.
Um, you can, you can be, youknow, take something that on the
face of it looks like a causethat is it's for the weak, it's
for the unborn, but if you'reugly about it, it really is.
I mean, that was that.
Was the thought process thatwent through my mind when
(25:19):
reading that passage where shesays, Oh, I can feel that my
anger is feeding this.
It's the hatred.
It I'm, I'm buying into it.
Laurel Thomas (25:30):
And it's more than ugly, which I think is what
her point was.
It was destructive.
Right.
It was, it was murderous.
Melissa Grace (25:39):
Even though she was hating a thing because it
was hating.
Micah Leydorf (25:43):
It reminds me simultaneously of something that
Gandhi said.
And then of course, so manythings that MLK said about I
choose love, you know, anddidn't, but Gandhi talked about,
um, The unforgiveness is likepoison, like drinking poison and
expecting the other person todie.
So, you know, like I say, likeshe feels this anger.
It's like, you don't realizethat's going to harm you.
(26:05):
It's not going to hurt them.
It's hurting.
You
Laurel Thomas (26:09):
because you're the same at that moment, and
that's what I think Melissa istrying to say if it's a
murderous spirit It's amurderous spirit.
It doesn't matter what you'reTouting right as truth or not
truth, which is I think is sointeresting about making the
brain a villain because we canall, we can argue on every side,
(26:30):
right?
But if there is a murderousspirit operating behind that
argument,
Micah Leydorf (26:37):
you know, I heard another quote recently.
It was from this really, Ithink, pretty exciting movement
called the after party.
It was some Christian thoughtleaders, um, like David French
and, um, I I'm forgetting someof the other ones, but, um,
talking about.
Christians like needing to findidentity outside of their
political party because thepolitical, a lot of people feel
(26:58):
homeless.
But, um, at this forum that Iwas listening to, they are
giving some quotes about likeour nation and how divided it is
and that literally it was like,A ridiculous number, like, um, I
want to quote it, I don'tremember exactly, but maybe like
40 percent or even somethingcrazily high like that.
Thinking that the country wouldbe better off if a vast majority
(27:22):
of the other people whodisagreed with them were to die.
Like, I mean, it was veryserious.
Laurel Thomas (27:28):
She's saying that in this novel.
She, you know it.
Are it Sorry.
It why?
I'm not against it.
I like it.
Chris Maselli is the best butshe's not saying it's ugly.
She's saying it's murderous.
And I just, I mean, the factthat Meg wins an impossibly
(27:53):
captive brother by love is justenormous.
Kat Lewis (27:59):
Yeah, no, I think that we've kind of, we've
dabbled in like the socialtruths.
Like this is one of those, thosenovels that again, I think the
movie adaptation fell short ofexploring any of this,
Micah Leydorf (28:10):
any, any of this on any level,
Kat Lewis (28:12):
So we kind of touched on social truths.
Micah Leydorf (28:15):
A lot.
Kat Lewis (28:16):
A lot.
A lot.
Melissa Grace (28:18):
Because that's what it's about, is social
truths.
Kat Lewis (28:20):
So what are some elements of the story of the
craft of storytelling that arejust done exceptionally well in
this book?
Micah Leydorf (28:28):
So I think tension.
I think it has to be attention.
I mean, again, this is anadventure story from the start,
you know, it starts on the darkand stormy night introduces all
the characters seamlessly in away that.
Doesn't feel forced at all.
That gets you involved that youfeel this connection to Meg is
the heroine, somebody who'srelatable.
I feel like again, that's 1 ofthe reasons why that the
(28:50):
character of Meg and howrelatable she is, why it has
such A timeless appeal to somany, like, who doesn't, like
you say, as a middle schoolerfeel like they don't quite
belong.
Maybe they're, they're trying tofind their way.
Everyone else has got ittogether.
Except me.
Right.
So again, it's, it's universal.
And then it just takes you everysingle chapter.
(29:11):
It's just an adventure story.
And it's pretty simple story,actually, you'd say there's not
a lot of setting.
There's not a lot of,
Laurel Thomas (29:17):
I mean, other than the quantum physics.
Micah Leydorf (29:19):
So I, I feel like what she does really well is
just keeps the tensionthroughout the entire she does.
Yeah.
That's good.
Kat Lewis (29:27):
Because honestly, like they, they embark on this
adventure to save their dad.
I think that one of the thingsthat she does really well Kind
of to what Micah is saying is,um, like the deep need that is
so relatable.
Sometimes I think that asauthors, we create deep needs
that are specific to ourcharacters, but may not
necessarily be specific to ourtarget audience.
(29:49):
And so like this deep need ofwanting to be like everybody
else.
You know, Meg is angry becauseher family is a broken family
and that's different than likeall the other seemingly perfect
families around her.
She's this awkward gangly kindof redhead with curly hair.
And she's like, man, if I couldjust have blonde smooth locks,
like, you know, just thatintrinsic need of, and the
(30:11):
perception of.
My normal world is the brokenworld, right?
Is there something broken aboutmy, my normal world?
And it's my family.
Laurel Thomas (30:23):
That's my favorite part because that's
like a universal, right?
So if you want to knowbrokenness, just Look in your
own family, right?
Because your, your closestrelationships are the ones that
reflect that, but they also openup the door for real growth.
And we see that in Meg, youknow, we see that with, she
adores her little brother andhas this protective heart toward
(30:45):
him.
She gets mad at her dad.
Cause her dad left, you know,Charles, right.
And didn't get them out verywell.
She about died.
But I love the whole familyelement and the fact that it's
so powerful in, incharacterization and also in
change and growth.
Micah Leydorf (31:05):
Well, I think the other real universal, besides
the, you know, gangliness andthe not belonging and all those
was, is the father.
Like you say, Laurel.
So everybody has a father,whether he's present or not.
And just like Meg, you eitherfeel the lack of him, or you
feel maybe he's lackingwhatsoever.
You know, Oh, wait, I thoughteverything was going to be okay.
(31:25):
Once I found my dad, he's notSuperman.
Oh, you know, everything isn'tokay because he's a human too.
And he's flawed.
So, I mean, father issues, howuniversal is that?
Laurel Thomas (31:37):
And she goes right to the core of it.
When she, her dad said, what'swrong, Megatron.
And Meg goes, I wanted you to doit all.
Melissa Grace (31:46):
I loved that.
I felt like that was just sucha.
Laurel Thomas (31:51):
Such a moment of the child becoming, you know,
grown.
What is the rite of passage?
What is the coming of age?
It's where we've been waitingfor someone else to do it.
And if they don't do it right,then we get mad and say, you
didn't do it right.
But we didn't do anything.
Melissa Grace (32:10):
Well, what I thought she did very, in such a
strong way was, um, the way shecreated I, I just said I didn't
feel like she was, she didn'tspend a whole lot of time giving
us A lot of, um, like, um,emotional imagery, but she did
(32:31):
give us worlds turned on theirheads.
She did give us a different wayof looking at things like the
beast.
I loved when aunt beast says,um, We do not know what things
look like.
We know what things are.
Mm-hmm It must be very limiting.
This thing seeing so good.
Laurel Thomas (32:52):
Alright, so our happy conclusion to our podcast
is character roulette.
And so, um, Kat, would you dothe honors of drawing a name for
us?
Micah Leydorf (33:03):
Well, let's just review.
We've got some choices here.
We got Meg.
We've got her little brother,Charles Wallace.
We have Calvin.
We have Mrs.
Murray, Mr.
Murray, Mrs.
Who, Mrs.
What's It, Mrs.
What's the third one?
Witch.
Witch.
We've got It.
Um, Aunt Beast.
I don't know.
Am I forgetting any?
Laurel Thomas (33:22):
That covers them.
Melissa Grace (33:22):
The, the, the creepy guy with the red eyes.
Micah Leydorf (33:26):
Oh, okay.
I just viewed him in themouthpiece mouth mouthpiece for
the brain really, but I'll knowmore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Kat Lewis (33:33):
Okay.
Let's, let's, let's spin itaround, spin it around and let's
talk about Charles.
Charles Wallace, the littlebrother.
Okay.
Yes.
The five year old Yes.
Yes.
Let's talk about kind of, um,his role as a change engine in
(33:54):
the story.
And I'll tell you, um, readingthis book, I immediately
identified Charles as the Edmundin Chronicles of Narnia.
Micah Leydorf (34:04):
Really?
Right.
Kat Lewis (34:05):
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
Absolutely.
Him coming to this world wheremaybe he felt seen and he felt
understood Whereas in the normalworld, he even kind of says it
He's like, I think it's betterif people think that I'm slow
because if they realize howintelligent I am They're gonna
hate me for it.
But in this, you know, Camazotz.
(34:27):
He's like, oh I can be I can beall that I think that I can be
right and it's that kind of likeit's that pride that allows that
The brain to seduce him and kindof that same kind of parallelism
of like Edmund coming to Narniaand seeing the potential for His
unrealized self to come.
Laurel Thomas (34:45):
That's cool.
Right?
Kat Lewis (34:46):
Yeah, I really saw The parallels and it kind of
makes sense if Madeline L'Englewas kind of in the same Literary
spaces as C.
S.
Lewis.
I see a lot of parallels andlike maybe how they executed
That seduction into,
Laurel Thomas (35:01):
let me say something about Charles.
I think at this point, what didit steal from Charles.
Charles had this intuitive giftand, he could perceive.
Yes.
He could perceive what Meg wasthinking.
They had such a strongconnection.
And he even understood his momand he knew the twins were like,
(35:24):
not too hard to understand, youknow, not real, not real deep
and complicated.
But I think that what it stolefrom Charles was that part of
him.
And it was only his intellect.
That got corrupted becauseCharles did not have a corrupt
soul.
Micah Leydorf (35:44):
Right.
I don't see him.
I don't see him being reallysweet.
Yes.
He was a sweet little boy.
So I think I see the differencesbetween him and Edmund.
Edmund is, I see kind of like,okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Edmund is young.
And I mean, he needs to be, hehas a greater need for
redemption arc than CharlesWallace, even like whenever he.
(36:10):
He's like, Meg, we have to dothis in order to save Father.
So he wasn't doing it likeEdmund.
Like, Oh, I can, what?
At Peter here, I can be the, youknow, white, white, you know,
little liaison and nobody else,something.
So yes, maybe Charles Wallacehas a little bit of pride that
enables that, but, but again,he's basically a sweet little
(36:32):
boy who was in need of someSaving versus a traitor.
Laurel Thomas (36:38):
Well, other than that, they were very similar.
Well, but right.
And, and that's what I saw.
I mean, as far as like, um, likewith his sister, they have the
sweetest relationship and it'svery two way and in it she's
protected because she knows hisheart and that's how she knows
(37:01):
it's not him.
when she comes to get him away.
Micah Leydorf (37:05):
That reminds me, Laurel, I, maybe this is a good
thing to end on is that, youknow, again, we're just talking
about, you know, the importanceof love and again, how there's a
lot of division in our worldtoday on various fronts.
And somebody said to merecently, um, uh, we were
talking about how to overcomethat.
And they said, um, I said, well,what about that quote from Oprah
(37:27):
about, you know, when peopleshow you who they are, you know,
believe them or I think it'soriginally Maya Angelou than
Oprah quoting Maya Angelou.
Um, and she said, they're notshowing you who they are.
She said, they're showing youthe lies that they've believed.
And that just so stuck with me.
So when you say like aboutCharles Wallace, like she knew
his heart and she said, knewthat that's not Charles.
(37:48):
That's really true of everysingle human being.
And this is what she was saying.
It's like, you know who peopleare.
They are.
They're beloved children of God.
That's who every single humanbeing is.
And whenever they show somethingdifferent, that's showing you
the lies that they believed.
So I think that maybe that's agood thing.
Melissa Grace (38:07):
That's powerful.
Kat Lewis (38:08):
That's so powerful.
Micah Leydorf (38:08):
Yeah.
Of like, again, how we canovercome just like Meg did by
love and one, how can we loveone another to see each other
for who we truly are.
Laurel Thomas (38:19):
Mm-hmm Good conclusion.
Well, we've had a wonderfultime.
We hope you enjoyed it as muchas we always enjoy each other
and you.
So come back and see us for thenext podcast, which will be
about Jane Eyre.
Kat Lewis (38:33):
Yes, ma'am.
Yes, ma'am.
So we hope you guys will comehang out with us and we will see
you soon.
Micah Leydorf (38:39):
All right.
Laurel Thomas (38:41):
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com